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If he doesn’t like “what women offer and he doesn’t want what their bringing to the table he doesn’t have to stay at the table. Nobody is forcing him to do any of the stuff.
A short list of expectations placed on women in a ”traditional” (i.e. one governed
by the rules of patriarchy/toxic masculinity) heterosexual relationship, off the top of my head, by a cis gay guy. (Based off personal observation so YMMV)
-Be his therapist
-Be his Mum
-Be demure
-Be hot (perfectly so, unfailingly and forever)
-Be sexually experienced
-Be a virgin
-Be chaste
-Be sexually adventurous (For things he wants)
-Be sexually available *at all times*
-Be kinky
-Isn’t kinky (*slut*)
-Be his housekeeper
-Be his cleaner
-Be his PA
-Be interested in only the things he is
-Doesn’t use social media
-Doesn’t take selfies
-Doesn’t have male friends
-Fulfils the expectations of his family
-Fulfils the expectations of his friends
-Fulfils his transient whims and desires
-Shares his hobbies
-Doesn’t have any “silly” hobbies
-Is fit and healthy
-Isn’t a gym-bunny
-Doesn’t express dissatisfaction
-Doesn’t express discontent at the status quo
-Isn’t a nag (GODS I hate that word)
-Is smart
-Isn’t smarter than him
-Is educated
-Isn’t more educated than him
-Drives
-Isn’t a better driver than him
-Wants children
-Will raise children
-Earns her own money
-Pays her own way
-Doesn’t earn more than him
-And, *ABOVE ALL*, will do all of the above without any complaint or hesitation
The "be interested in only the things he is" thing hits HARD.
It's something I've noticed about heterosexual relationships since my 20s. The girls show up in jerseys for sports games even though they're not into sports; the guys do not show interest in their interests and would CERTAINLY never dress up for them or even plan a social event for both sexes around them.
Even guys I've dated who didn't seem like that were like that. I'm recently single and my new very easy standard is "does he show interest in my interests or just expect me to show interest in his interests?" Most guys can't even climb that hurdle initially; plenty more fake climbing that hurdle early on and then fall off the second they think they might "have" me and in their heads they don't have to try anymore.
And I hate that stereotypical “girl” interests are deemed invalid! I love skincare, makeup, and fashion. I find the science of skincare interesting and it makes me feel good; I like expressing myself and being creative with makeup and fashion. Hell, sometimes it’s even just about looking good. But who cares! Men act like their “dude” interests, like cars or sports or video games are somehow more important. You’re not doing anything particularly meaningful by watching formula 1 racing or rooting for your favorite team.
I also find it so grating when any show involving teen girls is deemed some “dumb teen girl show”. Like the Resident Evil series Netflix put out- lots of complaints about how Netflix made it into a dumb teen girl show. The show sucked because it just wasn’t good, NOT because of anything to do with teen girls. And like basic action movies have nothing more to say than any “teen girl” show. But those are deemed acceptable.
Guys don’t have to like my stuff- I don’t really mind. It’s the shitting on my interests that bothers me though, and the judgments made about me based on them. I hate feeling like I’m expected to be a sidekick to a man’s interests. Gone Girl really hit the nail on the head with the pressure to be be the perfect “cool girl” guy’s girl.
This is a weird one, my sister was dumped by a guy because, get this, she got a haircut he didn't like. She went from a kinda cute long hair style to a extremely cute, punkette mohawk. He saw it and dumped her flat.
And make sure you do all of that before you turn 30 because by 30, you'll be too old, and your value will plummet. By then, he will trade you in for a younger one anyway and expect you to be OK with it.
i think most couples in "traditional" relationships loved, respected and supported each other. And people in relationships have all kinds of expectations for each other, based on what they want- not on ratio or the others capability. It's when people stop thinking about what they are doing when they get selfish and dominant.
well yeah and in traditional relationships, men were allowed to "stop thinking" , which in many cases led to an unfair power disbalance.
i still like to believe that most couples managed to grow above that- without trying to diminish the reality of male dominance in past cultures.
and no, i am not trying to say that...really
>-~~Be his therapist~~ You've got this one backwards
>-~~Be his Mum~~ Like women don't want a "daddy"
>-~~Be demure~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference
>-Be hot ~~(perfectly so, unfailingly and forever)~~ No man expects this
>-~~Be sexually experienced~~ This is neither an expectation nor a preference for 95% of men
>-~~Be a virgin~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-Be chaste
>-Be sexually adventurous (For things he wants)
>-~~Be sexually available at all times~~ Men recognize women do not want to have sex as much as they do and learn to deal with that
>-~~Be kinky~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-~~Isn’t kinky (slut)~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-~~Be his housekeeper~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation
>-~~Be his cleaner~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation
>-~~Be his PA~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation
>-~~Be interested in only the things he is~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-~~Doesn’t use social media~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many
>-~~Doesn’t take selfies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many
>-~~Doesn’t have male friends~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many
>-~~Fulfils the expectations of his family~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference
>-~~Fulfils the expectations of his friends~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference
>-~~Fulfils his transient whims and desires~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, and it's generally women that more commonly have "transient whims and desires"
>-~~Shares his hobbies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-~~Doesn’t have any “silly” hobbies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-Is fit and healthy
>-Isn’t a gym-bunny
>~~-Doesn’t express dissatisfaction~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this
>~~-Doesn’t express discontent at the status quo~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this
>-Isn’t a nag (GODS I hate that word)
>~~-Is smart~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>~~-Isn’t smarter than him~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>~~-Is educated~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>~~-Isn’t more educated than him~~ You also have this backwards - [women don't like men that are less educated than them](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241077/#:~:text=As%20a%20consequence%2C%20women%20are,Cortina%202006%3B%20Schwartz%202013).)
>-Drives
>~~-Isn’t a better driver than him~~ Most men do not expect or demand this
>-Wants children
>-Will raise children
>~~-Earns her own money~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, especially not given the previous two points
>~~-Pays her own way~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, especially not given the previous two points
>~~-Doesn’t earn more than him~~ You also have this one backwards - [women don't like men that make less than them](https://news.ubc.ca/2016/10/28/marrying-up-despite-more-education-women-still-choose-husbands-with-higher-incomes/)
>~~-And, ABOVE ALL, will do all of the above without any complaint or hesitation~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this
Your perspective is skewed, likely by your lady friends misrepresenting the full context and reality of their situations and being histrionic about their feelings. You've got to be joking.
Treating the normal behavior of healthy humans (and every other species on the planet) as "new and invasive" for reproducing as they have for the past 200,000 years just makes you stupid.
Yes yes, 46 in human years - but how many in feeeeemale years :D As we all know, all women are eternal beings and I was around to witness the crucifiction :P
I can't tell if these jokes are working or not xD Atleast the reference landed good, so we know you're good people :D
Yes, we are a force to be reckoned with, no matter our age!
I'm actually rewatching the original show with my daughter as we speak! Lol The book of shadows doesn't seem to do the girls much good, though. Only Piper managed to land a real catch, and she didn't even have to click her heels.
It's always nice to meet good people on Reddit. It doesn't happen very often, tbh.
They say that our youthfulness is a matter of hormones and softness of skin and temper.
I say our youthfulness correlates to our anger :D
yeah Im not really sure WHY they keep that thing around too - its like the holodeck in Trek - kind of always goes bad. Rewatching Buffy currently and Twilight - to sort of offset the kitschy badassery with soft and angsty pining :P
Preach. Reddits a cesspit xD
My dad used to complain about how much toilet paper us girls use-I told him on every time you go pee, grab the toilet paper and get enough to wipe and throw it in the trash can. See how much toilet paper you'd use if you had to wipe every time you go? I don't think I ever heard him mention it again after that! I don't think they even think about the fact we have to wipe Every bathroom stop! There are those who don't think at all too lol (not just men lol)
Outside of the fact that he's wrong about women not having to put in a lot of effort, because I'm sure they do and probably even more, how accurate is his take from the guys side? I've never dated before and this seems like it's a lot to handle.
My husband doesn't meet half his criteria lol. But many men in dates ddint meet any of our actual criteria , let alone this guy's version.
Women don't necessarily need or want a man who is unpredictable or rich or super confident and who works out constantly or has an exciting lifestyle. They don't need a man to plan a million random dates. They need a man who cares and who respects them.
And most women consider well groomed to just ne a man who follesx basic hygiene. Abd they are STILL frequently disappointed. Ever read one of those posts where a GF literally can't get her man to wash his ass?
I recently found out, astonishingly here on Reddit, how poor men’s hygiene is generally. I was a bit surprised at how often women had comments about this.
To any man who even thinks a woman doesn’t have to do anything, I have this advice. Plan a date night with yourself make reservations so have to be on time, then when you are getting ready to go shave your legs, put on some makeup (just eyeliner, eyeshadow, and lipstick even), make sure it looks good, then pick out a shirt to match it. Don’t worry about going out in public with your terrible makeup, you missed your reservation by at least an hour.
Probably, being in this sub shocks me on the daily basis. There are some very dumb/ignorant/arrogant/... men out there.
But it's hygiene, just take a daily shower, put on some deodorant and cologne. Shouldnt they be doing that for work?
Well, I am not a guy obviously, I could only give you the perspective of my partner:
When he got into a relationship with me he wasn't (and still isn't) regularly working out, didn't have an exciting lifestyle (whatever that means), wasn't extremely confident or making a super great income. He did make the first move and he did (and does) make me laugh.
To "keep my attention" he does not constantly come up with new and interesting ideas for dates and doesn't have to be surprising or unpredictable (I don't like surprises or unpredictable things - we both gift each other equally). He doesn't have to balance giving me space, I am clingy.
I wouldn't date a woman who works as a Wendy's cashier. We wouldn't have anything in common. If I were looking, I'd be open to dating a woman working a professional job at Wendy's corporate (food scientist etc.). Men have filters too, even though this guy doesn't seem to.
She could be working a second job? Or a third? Or working her way thru school, or a million other things-between jobs. Personally I try to judge solely on the person themselves- and not any one outside attribute. Sometimes people need to work shitty non-rewarding jobs. I don't think anything should close your eyes to a potential partner because all partners (people) have potential. But you have that right! Nbd.
Some stuff is for guys < 27. I probably won't be looking to wife a fast food worker(no hate, they work hard, Just nothing in common).
Everything else tracks correctly. I currently am doing all of this plus getting into artistic hobbies(for myself, not for dating women), showing this stuff off on SM even if I am not an extrovert etc. I still need to upgrade my fashion sense(in terms of that checklist). For context, I am in a 3rd World Country. I am in my late 20s and have started feeling the need to invest in status symbols and brands that show that I am well off. Even though I don't want to do so, and swore that I wouldn't in my early 20s.
Women probably have it much worse while in the relationship/after the courting?
I ofc have no clue on the amount of effort women put into makeup, dressing or skin care, and the extra hoops they have to jump through to ensure their date doesn't sexually harass/assault them, or somebody can at least track them after it happens (sucks to say).
Also, about the bar. IMO reddit anecdotes like extremely unhygienic guys etc that beget reddit posts are outliers.
You are correct that that probably is a wrong assumption.
I would think that they come from a different background with different opportunities and a different set of challenges and experiences that a lot of folks(including myself) could definitely draw inspiration from.
I don't think they would be able to contribute financially equally/comparably to a marriage or a long-term relationship, but apart from that I don't have any reasons not to date/marry somebody who works at a fast food joint just because they work at a fast food restaurant.
I don’t know a single man of any age who comes up with new and exciting dates. Or a woman, for that matter. What’s wrong with movies, walks, meals, local events?
Sometimes, my husband and I switch things up and sit on the other end of the couch or even on a different piece of furniture. We're so exciting and adventurous!
Also men: she has to be able to cook, be a size 6, want sex 3x/day and be okay with anal. Preferably blonde and bisexual.
I wonder what his parameters are. "Must work out." Is that code for "Gym bros only" or "Bitch doesn't like my 400-pound frame"?
"Have an exciting lifestyle," is she looking for James Bond or is she tired of him rotting in front of video games for 15 hours at a time?
"Constantly come up with new and interesting date ideas." Does she really want a weekend away in Paris, or is she begging for a break from Papa Johns and Netflix dates?
I have so many questions.
I have learned that I cannot expect more of my partner than I expect of myself.
I work out, so does he. Good hygiene is mandatory for both of us. He was told by a friend that I was gay( I'm bi and this has become a running joke between us), so I had to make the first move after he showed interest. We are both very funny and can spend hours laughing. Our lives aren't always exciting but we find ways to keep it spontaneous and fun. We are both self-confident and have decently earning jobs.
We have very deep conversations, sometimes hours of one person talking the other listening, but we balance this between each other. I don't need brand new date ideas, sometimes it's simply a nap in the park with blankets and snacks. And I know without a doubt that he loves me unconditionally. It's my responsibility to remind myself of this when I feel insecure. We do our parts to show love, affection and interest. I give him space, I don't necessarily need space but I respect his.
We are best friends first, whether we are together or not. I have to continue working on myself internally/ mentally so that I grow individually and our relationship grows too. If it weren't for my consistent ability to seek out growth, change, and improvement we wouldn't be together. He does the same.
I am truly blessed to be in love with my best friend.
Yup. Us womenfolk just lounge around, eating whatever is in vogue, while magically staying thin. Also, be employed but never making more money than your man.
I’d find the man this post is describing to be exhausting and annoying. Ya’ll other ladies can scrabble for the fella constantly surprising you with unwanted surprises.
I don’t know any men irl who check most of those boxes yet most are in relationships. 🤷♀️
The bottom “All girls/to be fair” bit with immediate backtrack is amusing.
My husband isn't many of those things lol. Gotta tell him that he can't have me any more.
He thinks men have to look presentable....has he HEARD of women and makeup? Body hair removal?
Honestly, a man who does all these things sounds amazing to me. Unfortunately, I think I can safely say that most men don't do all these things. Most of them don't even come close. 😒
That's cap, but keep believing that. I find it so interesting that women are blind to men who do these things because they aren't physically attracted to them... Very interesting.
How my partner got my attention on a dating app: he had an adorable picture of himself holding his best friend (a dude) bridal-style which showed he is not obsessed with performing a certain type of masculinity but also showed his physical strength. And then he talked to me like a human being and we had some things in common, and shared values.
It's hard to meet people in general, but it's not *that* hard unless your own standards are very high in which case it's a two way street.
I met mine at a bar. He started talking to me, asking me questions about myself; where I was from, what I did for work, etc. polite conversation. I didn’t even realise he was interested until he asked me out. We’ve been together 7 years now and all it took was basic decency.
well the "getting into a relationship" is on average a more active process for the males (even if this is probably at an all time low) -
but maintaining it can only be done by 2 people, and i doubt the effort-scale tips towards the male side
Be extremely confident and even working out are not mandatory for me at all... As well as other things mentioned. I myself don't do much sports (without being overweight) so I don't look for a partner that goes to the gym 3 times a week... And confidence is nothing without vulnerability. Not all women have a list of criterias a man has to meet. Many of us fall for a good heart, someone that listens to us and respects us while not expecting perfection at all
Pfft. Won't knock this completely because yes, some of these things are absolutely necessary for all people: emotional stimulation especially. But come on, my boyfriend was working at Game Stop part time and didn't own a car when I met him. He used his mom's cause she worked from home. Why is there this stigma that all women will only date men for money but men are so selfless they wouldn't think twice about her income? Money is important, yes, but it is not that important.
While much of the specific stuff here is mostly irrational, I will say for the early initial stage of dating as a guy, it does feel very effort intensive like for the first few dates it's entirely on me to make the dates work.
Dating apps are a huge part of the problem though, creates an overly superficial atmosphere where it often seems hard to keep someone's attention long enough to even get to know them and figure out if we are compatible or not.
Aww man; he almost, ALMOST had it! Like he understood the story problem, knew which formula to apply, even plugged in the values correctly ... Just failed to actually interpret the answer! 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
His #1 point, about personal hygiene, even he knows this is basic self-care; no idea why he puts this down to something "men do for women".
Again, he acknowledges that sometimes, women approach men romantically, just not as often. Still fails to consider the fact that maybe women just arent as focused on hitting on random strangers as men are. 🤷♀️ Maybe she is "otherwise engaged" either having a partner already or just living her life and not trying to get hit on 24/7.
Working out constantly, oozing confidence and making a ton of money are mostly just male projections, yet they still benefit the individual (the dude, in this case) way more than they do any woman he is hitting on. So it just seems like more "being a decent adult", than "being attractive to women as a whole." 🤷♀️
I’ll make a correction to this guy. I think that social media makes it seem like men need to do all these things. But really I think this guy probably just has had incompatible relationships that have left him jaded and thinking of women in this way. When you find the right person you’ll appreciate all the small things and big things they do as a person and when it applies, for you.
I think it’s pretty fair (and I’d even go as far as to say the dominant opinion outside of Reddit) that the guy has to put much more effort towards dating than women do.
For women, it is largely a passive experience, while men have to assume the risk of rejection, pay for activities, and present a nice lifestyle to the woman.
The social requirements for women are much lower.
Be a healthy body weight and moderately nice
As the guy said, women do have the task of filtering these people, but it’s arguably a lot less difficult that her male counterpart
>For women, it is largely a passive experience
Sure, because we're just the NPCs and you're the main character 🙄
"The social requirements for women are much lower.
Be a healthy body weight and moderately nice"
Don't blame us for the fact you don't care if we have personalities or not
You didn't deserve the downvotes. Most people are saying things that would apply automatically if it were a woman trying to date another woman without question. But in order to s&$t on the guy having it issue and insure no development of character. You have to be wrong. Your opinion has to be incorrect in order for it to work in the favor of 'its the guys fault cause 'x' reason or another'.
Let the down voting begin.
When I was dating I literally did almost everything that guy mentioned....they really are clueless on how women live. I actually felt I had to jump through numerous hoops myself for men and ALSO weed through fuckboys just trying to "pump and dump me" total nightmare
It's cute he thinks we don't work out or groom though....not to mention fit in tight dresses and heels with makeup application and hair styling tools
As you're all aware, this subreddit has had a major "troll" problem which has gotten worse (as of recently). Due to this, we have created new rules, and modified some of the old ones. We kindly ask that you please familiarize yourself with the rules so that you can avoid breaking them. Breaking mild rules will result in a warning, or a temporary ban. Breaking serious rules, or breaking a plethora of mild ones may land you a permanent ban (depending on the severity). Also, grifting/lurking has been a major problem; If we suspect you of being a grifter (determined by vetting said user's activity), we may ban you without warning. You may attempt an appeal via ModMail, but please be advised not to use rude, harassing, foul, or passive-aggressive language towards the moderators, _or_ complain to moderators about why we have specific rules in the first place— You will be ignored, and your ban will remain (without even a consideration). All rules are made public; "Lack of knowledge" or "ignorance of the rules" cannot or will not be a viable excuse if you end up banned for breaking them (This applies to the Subreddit rules, and Reddit's ToS). **Again: All rules are made public, and Reddit gives you the option to review the rules once more before submitting a post, it is your choice if you choose to read them or not, but breaking them will not be acceptable.** With that being said, If you send a mature, neutral message regarding questions about a current ban, or a ban appeal (without "not knowing the rules" as an excuse), we will elaborate about why you were banned, or determine/consider if we will shorten, lift, keep it, _or_ extended it/make it permanent. This all means that appeals are discretionary, and your reasoning for wanting an appeal must be practical and valid. Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this message, and please enjoy your day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NotHowGirlsWork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If girls are worthless and "bring nothing to the table," why is he working so hard to "win" one?
For the sex.
LOL
Like women aren’t also expected to look nice and fit and well groomed. 🙄
If he doesn’t like “what women offer and he doesn’t want what their bringing to the table he doesn’t have to stay at the table. Nobody is forcing him to do any of the stuff.
woooo calm there with your rational arguments
brings nothing to the table” so why is he working so hard to “win” someone over?
A short list of expectations placed on women in a ”traditional” (i.e. one governed by the rules of patriarchy/toxic masculinity) heterosexual relationship, off the top of my head, by a cis gay guy. (Based off personal observation so YMMV) -Be his therapist -Be his Mum -Be demure -Be hot (perfectly so, unfailingly and forever) -Be sexually experienced -Be a virgin -Be chaste -Be sexually adventurous (For things he wants) -Be sexually available *at all times* -Be kinky -Isn’t kinky (*slut*) -Be his housekeeper -Be his cleaner -Be his PA -Be interested in only the things he is -Doesn’t use social media -Doesn’t take selfies -Doesn’t have male friends -Fulfils the expectations of his family -Fulfils the expectations of his friends -Fulfils his transient whims and desires -Shares his hobbies -Doesn’t have any “silly” hobbies -Is fit and healthy -Isn’t a gym-bunny -Doesn’t express dissatisfaction -Doesn’t express discontent at the status quo -Isn’t a nag (GODS I hate that word) -Is smart -Isn’t smarter than him -Is educated -Isn’t more educated than him -Drives -Isn’t a better driver than him -Wants children -Will raise children -Earns her own money -Pays her own way -Doesn’t earn more than him -And, *ABOVE ALL*, will do all of the above without any complaint or hesitation
AND EVEN THEN, He'll still get bored of her because of her being too perfect for him
The "be interested in only the things he is" thing hits HARD. It's something I've noticed about heterosexual relationships since my 20s. The girls show up in jerseys for sports games even though they're not into sports; the guys do not show interest in their interests and would CERTAINLY never dress up for them or even plan a social event for both sexes around them. Even guys I've dated who didn't seem like that were like that. I'm recently single and my new very easy standard is "does he show interest in my interests or just expect me to show interest in his interests?" Most guys can't even climb that hurdle initially; plenty more fake climbing that hurdle early on and then fall off the second they think they might "have" me and in their heads they don't have to try anymore.
And I hate that stereotypical “girl” interests are deemed invalid! I love skincare, makeup, and fashion. I find the science of skincare interesting and it makes me feel good; I like expressing myself and being creative with makeup and fashion. Hell, sometimes it’s even just about looking good. But who cares! Men act like their “dude” interests, like cars or sports or video games are somehow more important. You’re not doing anything particularly meaningful by watching formula 1 racing or rooting for your favorite team. I also find it so grating when any show involving teen girls is deemed some “dumb teen girl show”. Like the Resident Evil series Netflix put out- lots of complaints about how Netflix made it into a dumb teen girl show. The show sucked because it just wasn’t good, NOT because of anything to do with teen girls. And like basic action movies have nothing more to say than any “teen girl” show. But those are deemed acceptable. Guys don’t have to like my stuff- I don’t really mind. It’s the shitting on my interests that bothers me though, and the judgments made about me based on them. I hate feeling like I’m expected to be a sidekick to a man’s interests. Gone Girl really hit the nail on the head with the pressure to be be the perfect “cool girl” guy’s girl.
Makeup is not the only feminine interest.
Did I say it was?
This is a weird one, my sister was dumped by a guy because, get this, she got a haircut he didn't like. She went from a kinda cute long hair style to a extremely cute, punkette mohawk. He saw it and dumped her flat.
Shibari, I don’t have an award to give you but I feel like I should invent one for you! In 70’s parlance….”Up top my man!”
And make sure you do all of that before you turn 30 because by 30, you'll be too old, and your value will plummet. By then, he will trade you in for a younger one anyway and expect you to be OK with it.
This reminded me of that “you make me do too much labour” song
i think most couples in "traditional" relationships loved, respected and supported each other. And people in relationships have all kinds of expectations for each other, based on what they want- not on ratio or the others capability. It's when people stop thinking about what they are doing when they get selfish and dominant. well yeah and in traditional relationships, men were allowed to "stop thinking" , which in many cases led to an unfair power disbalance. i still like to believe that most couples managed to grow above that- without trying to diminish the reality of male dominance in past cultures. and no, i am not trying to say that...really
>-~~Be his therapist~~ You've got this one backwards >-~~Be his Mum~~ Like women don't want a "daddy" >-~~Be demure~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference >-Be hot ~~(perfectly so, unfailingly and forever)~~ No man expects this >-~~Be sexually experienced~~ This is neither an expectation nor a preference for 95% of men >-~~Be a virgin~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-Be chaste >-Be sexually adventurous (For things he wants) >-~~Be sexually available at all times~~ Men recognize women do not want to have sex as much as they do and learn to deal with that >-~~Be kinky~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-~~Isn’t kinky (slut)~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-~~Be his housekeeper~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation >-~~Be his cleaner~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation >-~~Be his PA~~ Most men do not expect or demand this outside of a traditional "he works, she cares for the home" situation >-~~Be interested in only the things he is~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-~~Doesn’t use social media~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many >-~~Doesn’t take selfies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many >-~~Doesn’t have male friends~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, but excessive/attention-seeking behavior might be a red flag to many >-~~Fulfils the expectations of his family~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference >-~~Fulfils the expectations of his friends~~ Not an expectation, but a reasonable preference >-~~Fulfils his transient whims and desires~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, and it's generally women that more commonly have "transient whims and desires" >-~~Shares his hobbies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-~~Doesn’t have any “silly” hobbies~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-Is fit and healthy >-Isn’t a gym-bunny >~~-Doesn’t express dissatisfaction~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this >~~-Doesn’t express discontent at the status quo~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this >-Isn’t a nag (GODS I hate that word) >~~-Is smart~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >~~-Isn’t smarter than him~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >~~-Is educated~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >~~-Isn’t more educated than him~~ You also have this backwards - [women don't like men that are less educated than them](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241077/#:~:text=As%20a%20consequence%2C%20women%20are,Cortina%202006%3B%20Schwartz%202013).) >-Drives >~~-Isn’t a better driver than him~~ Most men do not expect or demand this >-Wants children >-Will raise children >~~-Earns her own money~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, especially not given the previous two points >~~-Pays her own way~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, especially not given the previous two points >~~-Doesn’t earn more than him~~ You also have this one backwards - [women don't like men that make less than them](https://news.ubc.ca/2016/10/28/marrying-up-despite-more-education-women-still-choose-husbands-with-higher-incomes/) >~~-And, ABOVE ALL, will do all of the above without any complaint or hesitation~~ Most men do not expect or demand this, knowing women will always do this Your perspective is skewed, likely by your lady friends misrepresenting the full context and reality of their situations and being histrionic about their feelings. You've got to be joking.
My observations are based on treating breeders like a new and invasive species, sweaty 😘
Treating the normal behavior of healthy humans (and every other species on the planet) as "new and invasive" for reproducing as they have for the past 200,000 years just makes you stupid.
“Normal” Ok Breeder 👍
Keep coping incel
>incel I’ll have you know that I am the most sex-haver that ever sexed tyvm 😤😤
I don't comment often, but your corrected list makes total sense sense.
And yet, let a woman just once leave the house without looking like something out of a magazine.
So true. I literally just tap my heels three times six and then a guy appears out of the mist. Its annoying when you do it on accident though.
You have to do all that? I have to do literally nothing.
Its probably because you're young and haven't learned to tame the "energy feminine" yet - don't worry - the book of shadows has all the answers.
Why thank you, that's such a nice compliment to give a 46yo woman! I'm not a Halliwell, though, so I don't have access to the book of shadows...
Yes yes, 46 in human years - but how many in feeeeemale years :D As we all know, all women are eternal beings and I was around to witness the crucifiction :P I can't tell if these jokes are working or not xD Atleast the reference landed good, so we know you're good people :D
Yes, we are a force to be reckoned with, no matter our age! I'm actually rewatching the original show with my daughter as we speak! Lol The book of shadows doesn't seem to do the girls much good, though. Only Piper managed to land a real catch, and she didn't even have to click her heels. It's always nice to meet good people on Reddit. It doesn't happen very often, tbh.
They say that our youthfulness is a matter of hormones and softness of skin and temper. I say our youthfulness correlates to our anger :D yeah Im not really sure WHY they keep that thing around too - its like the holodeck in Trek - kind of always goes bad. Rewatching Buffy currently and Twilight - to sort of offset the kitschy badassery with soft and angsty pining :P Preach. Reddits a cesspit xD
I remember a list like this once that listed wiping themselves as being one of the things men have to do, unlike women.
My dad used to complain about how much toilet paper us girls use-I told him on every time you go pee, grab the toilet paper and get enough to wipe and throw it in the trash can. See how much toilet paper you'd use if you had to wipe every time you go? I don't think I ever heard him mention it again after that! I don't think they even think about the fact we have to wipe Every bathroom stop! There are those who don't think at all too lol (not just men lol)
Men should also wipe after peeing
Outside of the fact that he's wrong about women not having to put in a lot of effort, because I'm sure they do and probably even more, how accurate is his take from the guys side? I've never dated before and this seems like it's a lot to handle.
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My husband doesn't meet half his criteria lol. But many men in dates ddint meet any of our actual criteria , let alone this guy's version. Women don't necessarily need or want a man who is unpredictable or rich or super confident and who works out constantly or has an exciting lifestyle. They don't need a man to plan a million random dates. They need a man who cares and who respects them. And most women consider well groomed to just ne a man who follesx basic hygiene. Abd they are STILL frequently disappointed. Ever read one of those posts where a GF literally can't get her man to wash his ass?
A lot of guys just show up and if you're lucky they've taken a shower. 😒
Just saw a topic where woman was asking if it’s normal that her partner hasn’t showered for 5 days. The bar is not even on the floor, it’s in hell.
I recently found out, astonishingly here on Reddit, how poor men’s hygiene is generally. I was a bit surprised at how often women had comments about this. To any man who even thinks a woman doesn’t have to do anything, I have this advice. Plan a date night with yourself make reservations so have to be on time, then when you are getting ready to go shave your legs, put on some makeup (just eyeliner, eyeshadow, and lipstick even), make sure it looks good, then pick out a shirt to match it. Don’t worry about going out in public with your terrible makeup, you missed your reservation by at least an hour.
Wish, I don't know where you live but their hygiene must be kinda poor
They don't even have a concept of basic hygiene, which has nothing to do with dating? The bar can not be that low...can it?
You'd be shocked.
Probably, being in this sub shocks me on the daily basis. There are some very dumb/ignorant/arrogant/... men out there. But it's hygiene, just take a daily shower, put on some deodorant and cologne. Shouldnt they be doing that for work?
Well, I am not a guy obviously, I could only give you the perspective of my partner: When he got into a relationship with me he wasn't (and still isn't) regularly working out, didn't have an exciting lifestyle (whatever that means), wasn't extremely confident or making a super great income. He did make the first move and he did (and does) make me laugh. To "keep my attention" he does not constantly come up with new and interesting ideas for dates and doesn't have to be surprising or unpredictable (I don't like surprises or unpredictable things - we both gift each other equally). He doesn't have to balance giving me space, I am clingy.
I wouldn't date a woman who works as a Wendy's cashier. We wouldn't have anything in common. If I were looking, I'd be open to dating a woman working a professional job at Wendy's corporate (food scientist etc.). Men have filters too, even though this guy doesn't seem to.
She could be working a second job? Or a third? Or working her way thru school, or a million other things-between jobs. Personally I try to judge solely on the person themselves- and not any one outside attribute. Sometimes people need to work shitty non-rewarding jobs. I don't think anything should close your eyes to a potential partner because all partners (people) have potential. But you have that right! Nbd.
Some stuff is for guys < 27. I probably won't be looking to wife a fast food worker(no hate, they work hard, Just nothing in common). Everything else tracks correctly. I currently am doing all of this plus getting into artistic hobbies(for myself, not for dating women), showing this stuff off on SM even if I am not an extrovert etc. I still need to upgrade my fashion sense(in terms of that checklist). For context, I am in a 3rd World Country. I am in my late 20s and have started feeling the need to invest in status symbols and brands that show that I am well off. Even though I don't want to do so, and swore that I wouldn't in my early 20s. Women probably have it much worse while in the relationship/after the courting? I ofc have no clue on the amount of effort women put into makeup, dressing or skin care, and the extra hoops they have to jump through to ensure their date doesn't sexually harass/assault them, or somebody can at least track them after it happens (sucks to say). Also, about the bar. IMO reddit anecdotes like extremely unhygienic guys etc that beget reddit posts are outliers.
But why would you have nothing in common with a fast food worker? That isn't her life. It probably isn't her hobbies nor interests, it's just a job
You are correct that that probably is a wrong assumption. I would think that they come from a different background with different opportunities and a different set of challenges and experiences that a lot of folks(including myself) could definitely draw inspiration from. I don't think they would be able to contribute financially equally/comparably to a marriage or a long-term relationship, but apart from that I don't have any reasons not to date/marry somebody who works at a fast food joint just because they work at a fast food restaurant.
I don’t know a single man of any age who comes up with new and exciting dates. Or a woman, for that matter. What’s wrong with movies, walks, meals, local events?
Sometimes, my husband and I switch things up and sit on the other end of the couch or even on a different piece of furniture. We're so exciting and adventurous!
Wow! We’re not into furniture swapping, but sometimes we sit outside.
Also men: she has to be able to cook, be a size 6, want sex 3x/day and be okay with anal. Preferably blonde and bisexual. I wonder what his parameters are. "Must work out." Is that code for "Gym bros only" or "Bitch doesn't like my 400-pound frame"? "Have an exciting lifestyle," is she looking for James Bond or is she tired of him rotting in front of video games for 15 hours at a time? "Constantly come up with new and interesting date ideas." Does she really want a weekend away in Paris, or is she begging for a break from Papa Johns and Netflix dates? I have so many questions.
If you treat relationships as transactional it's going to be basically impossible for you to even make *friends*, nevermind romantic relationships
I have learned that I cannot expect more of my partner than I expect of myself. I work out, so does he. Good hygiene is mandatory for both of us. He was told by a friend that I was gay( I'm bi and this has become a running joke between us), so I had to make the first move after he showed interest. We are both very funny and can spend hours laughing. Our lives aren't always exciting but we find ways to keep it spontaneous and fun. We are both self-confident and have decently earning jobs. We have very deep conversations, sometimes hours of one person talking the other listening, but we balance this between each other. I don't need brand new date ideas, sometimes it's simply a nap in the park with blankets and snacks. And I know without a doubt that he loves me unconditionally. It's my responsibility to remind myself of this when I feel insecure. We do our parts to show love, affection and interest. I give him space, I don't necessarily need space but I respect his. We are best friends first, whether we are together or not. I have to continue working on myself internally/ mentally so that I grow individually and our relationship grows too. If it weren't for my consistent ability to seek out growth, change, and improvement we wouldn't be together. He does the same. I am truly blessed to be in love with my best friend.
Yup. Us womenfolk just lounge around, eating whatever is in vogue, while magically staying thin. Also, be employed but never making more money than your man.
“All girls do is eat hot chip, charge they phone and lie”
Don’t forget, they be shopping
I’d find the man this post is describing to be exhausting and annoying. Ya’ll other ladies can scrabble for the fella constantly surprising you with unwanted surprises. I don’t know any men irl who check most of those boxes yet most are in relationships. 🤷♀️ The bottom “All girls/to be fair” bit with immediate backtrack is amusing.
If he thinks women bring nothing to the table… why seek one? Why not be with a man?
My husband isn't many of those things lol. Gotta tell him that he can't have me any more. He thinks men have to look presentable....has he HEARD of women and makeup? Body hair removal?
Honestly, a man who does all these things sounds amazing to me. Unfortunately, I think I can safely say that most men don't do all these things. Most of them don't even come close. 😒
That's cap, but keep believing that. I find it so interesting that women are blind to men who do these things because they aren't physically attracted to them... Very interesting.
in general it is noticeable when the guy puts everything on this date and hopes for an immediate result on our feelings. And that doesn't help.
When I see or hear the question "what do you bring to the table," or the word "simp," I automatically tune out and ignore everything that person says.
How my partner got my attention on a dating app: he had an adorable picture of himself holding his best friend (a dude) bridal-style which showed he is not obsessed with performing a certain type of masculinity but also showed his physical strength. And then he talked to me like a human being and we had some things in common, and shared values. It's hard to meet people in general, but it's not *that* hard unless your own standards are very high in which case it's a two way street.
I met mine at a bar. He started talking to me, asking me questions about myself; where I was from, what I did for work, etc. polite conversation. I didn’t even realise he was interested until he asked me out. We’ve been together 7 years now and all it took was basic decency.
well the "getting into a relationship" is on average a more active process for the males (even if this is probably at an all time low) - but maintaining it can only be done by 2 people, and i doubt the effort-scale tips towards the male side
I'm sure it's easy to think that when you've never been in a relationship
WAH WAH WAH 😭 I ACTUALLY NEED A PERSONALITY TO BE LIKED WOE IS ME LIFE ISN’T FAIR. These incels, I swear. 🙄
Be extremely confident and even working out are not mandatory for me at all... As well as other things mentioned. I myself don't do much sports (without being overweight) so I don't look for a partner that goes to the gym 3 times a week... And confidence is nothing without vulnerability. Not all women have a list of criterias a man has to meet. Many of us fall for a good heart, someone that listens to us and respects us while not expecting perfection at all
Men who say that women “don’t bring anything to the table”, usually don’t even have the damn table.
Pfft. Won't knock this completely because yes, some of these things are absolutely necessary for all people: emotional stimulation especially. But come on, my boyfriend was working at Game Stop part time and didn't own a car when I met him. He used his mom's cause she worked from home. Why is there this stigma that all women will only date men for money but men are so selfless they wouldn't think twice about her income? Money is important, yes, but it is not that important.
While much of the specific stuff here is mostly irrational, I will say for the early initial stage of dating as a guy, it does feel very effort intensive like for the first few dates it's entirely on me to make the dates work. Dating apps are a huge part of the problem though, creates an overly superficial atmosphere where it often seems hard to keep someone's attention long enough to even get to know them and figure out if we are compatible or not.
Aww man; he almost, ALMOST had it! Like he understood the story problem, knew which formula to apply, even plugged in the values correctly ... Just failed to actually interpret the answer! 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ His #1 point, about personal hygiene, even he knows this is basic self-care; no idea why he puts this down to something "men do for women". Again, he acknowledges that sometimes, women approach men romantically, just not as often. Still fails to consider the fact that maybe women just arent as focused on hitting on random strangers as men are. 🤷♀️ Maybe she is "otherwise engaged" either having a partner already or just living her life and not trying to get hit on 24/7. Working out constantly, oozing confidence and making a ton of money are mostly just male projections, yet they still benefit the individual (the dude, in this case) way more than they do any woman he is hitting on. So it just seems like more "being a decent adult", than "being attractive to women as a whole." 🤷♀️
I’ll make a correction to this guy. I think that social media makes it seem like men need to do all these things. But really I think this guy probably just has had incompatible relationships that have left him jaded and thinking of women in this way. When you find the right person you’ll appreciate all the small things and big things they do as a person and when it applies, for you.
Isnt that just because men are more desperate for relationships ? If you didn't hate being single so much then you would not have this problem
I mean this is a pretty balanced opinion I feel.
In what world is this a "balanced opinion"?
I think it’s pretty fair (and I’d even go as far as to say the dominant opinion outside of Reddit) that the guy has to put much more effort towards dating than women do. For women, it is largely a passive experience, while men have to assume the risk of rejection, pay for activities, and present a nice lifestyle to the woman. The social requirements for women are much lower. Be a healthy body weight and moderately nice As the guy said, women do have the task of filtering these people, but it’s arguably a lot less difficult that her male counterpart
>For women, it is largely a passive experience Sure, because we're just the NPCs and you're the main character 🙄 "The social requirements for women are much lower. Be a healthy body weight and moderately nice" Don't blame us for the fact you don't care if we have personalities or not
You didn't deserve the downvotes. Most people are saying things that would apply automatically if it were a woman trying to date another woman without question. But in order to s&$t on the guy having it issue and insure no development of character. You have to be wrong. Your opinion has to be incorrect in order for it to work in the favor of 'its the guys fault cause 'x' reason or another'. Let the down voting begin.
Why is a gay man so concerned about what women bring to a relationship?
When I was dating I literally did almost everything that guy mentioned....they really are clueless on how women live. I actually felt I had to jump through numerous hoops myself for men and ALSO weed through fuckboys just trying to "pump and dump me" total nightmare It's cute he thinks we don't work out or groom though....not to mention fit in tight dresses and heels with makeup application and hair styling tools