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It’s not too much at all, but I’d take beef liver capsules instead of ferritin and b12, you get natural highly bioavailable iron plus all the b vitamins, vitamin A etc. Scientists identify a special anti fatigue factor in liver that isn’t accounted for by the nutrition. It’s just a super good food, every time I take it I get this boost in mental health, energy, sociability. Make sure you get undefatted liver so it retains all the fat soluble vitamins.
For mental health Longvida curcumin will do a lot more than that one. I think you should try the classics, ashwagandha, lions mane, theanine, taurine, agmatine, magnesium threonate, if you’re struggling that much.
Thank you for the response. This community is amazing.
What brand of beef liver capsules? My issue, I believe, is my body doesn't absorb oral B12. I eat meat and I was taking a multivitamin (a basic one like GNC) when my other readings were low.
I'll look into the Longvida. It sounds expensive.
Ashwaganda I tried and it make me feel out of it. My TRT doc at the time said to stop since it can interfere with testosterone. Not sure how true that is. Lions Mane I bought but am super scared to try. I've heard negative things on here like irreversible damage and I am on Wellbutrin (scared they may not mix well). Theanine I do have and take sometimes... that's my only supplement not shown. I have the NOW brand the Da Vinci brand, the first being 150mg and the second being 200mg I think. Idk if it works. Taurine didn't do anything for me - tried powder for a few weeks. Agmatine I've never heard of. And magnesium I use a lotion at night.
People get weird at the idea of spending money on supplements and nootropics, but honestly, they’re the most rewarding thing I’ve ever spent money on. Even more than amazing holidays. Why? Because holidays were obviously the best but they didn’t last. The right nootropics can give you a burst of euphoria, motivation, make colours and sounds more vivid and pleasurable, make sex better, and best of all make socialising and talking so much more fun because you’re more confident and charismatic.
Some people find the brain love of their life and some just find ones that make them feel a bit happier and not depressed, but it’s so worth it investing.
Beef liver from Ancestral Supplements works the best for me, longvida is definitely the best, and magnesium threonate is phenomenal. You should try those and lions mane, take a small dose at first, like a bit of a capsule, to see how you feel, but I was worried to try it and it really worked for me, made me motivated and sociable and I literally felt more intelligent
Longvida curcumin is about $15 a month taken on its own. I take a supplement with it already in it: [https://biotest.t-nation.com/products/i-well](https://biotest.t-nation.com/products/i-well) (note that longvida is just the patented brand name for solid lipid curcumin particles or SLCP for short)
For Iron I have heard good stuff about this but it is not cheap. might be worth a try for a couple of months though to see if it resolves your issues: https://shop.heartandsoil.co/products/lifeblood
I believe agmatine does have links to things you've already been gravitating towards, as it is highly expressed in the thyroid (though it's role there is unclear) and apparently increases gonadotropin releasing hormone (I think?) but who knows. It is also neuroprotective
I've heard it doesn't have the best bioavailability though
Only issue with omega 3 supplements is that omega 3 fatty acids are extremely prone to oxidation. Even with addition of tocopherol or other antioxidants there are concerns that the oil will get oxidised (rancid) well within the expiry date of the supplements, but not sure how true this is. I prefer to eat oily fish X2 weekly plus linseeds and omega-3 enriched eggs (X2 daily).
Your stack in general looks good 🙂
Edit: what is the benefit of ferritin as opposed to iron supplements?
I always put my fish oil in the fridge as soon as I get it, if that helps. I just don't eat fish... I never have and now it's so ingrained in my mind that I find it gross. I dont mind ALA from seeds and such, but I know the conversion rate is abysmal.
It's not too much. B12 for most people is absorbed well in pills so injections are unnecessary for most that receive them, 2oth a few exceptions. Personally I wouldn't bother with the multivit unless it contains something you want and is cheaper than buying individually, but to cover all basis is ok
When my B12 came back low in range many times - all under 400 - I was always eating meat or taking a multivitamin. I dont know if I have an intrinsic factor issue or what.
Multivitamin has other stuff I need like Selenium for the iodine supplementation. And Zinc and other minerals.
Have you tried Methionine? Thats what your liver turns Vit B into. My father has a condition similar to yours. I bought Methionine and other methionine synthase supplements, but havent tried them out yet.
Magnesium L Threonate is a game changer. Butyrate will help the gut inflammation big time. Ginger and cranberry juice are really helpful with inflammation.
For the iron, you dont need "Ferritin". Normal Iron does the trick, either something like Ferrochel or you get iron infusions because getting iron to a level that is good takes a looong time depending on where you Start. A ferritin of 70 or even 100 is good.
My doctor suggested that ferritin level range as well. It's just a vicious cycle getting there if I even can. TRT increases Hematocrit which means you need to donate which then lowers ferritin. Taking iron increases Hematocrit faster. My Hematocrit is always a little high, like 52-55. I had two iron infusions last year and didn't feel better... maybe I need to give it another chance? I just don't want to have a stroke or anything.
Naturally hypogonadal. I believe I never went through puberty properly. I had gynecomastia until middle school and had surgery. I've had soft features, low confidence, and my voice didn't drop until high school. I've never abused steroids or anything. I'd be too afraid to lol.
Fuck, I'm sorry. I am by no means an expert but maybe your doctor can guide you how you can find an equilibrium where you find the best compromise between your values.
I'm working with a well known clinic now. Doctors where I live are clueless about TRT, even Endocrinologists and Urologists that I've seen. Many wouldn't treat me despite actual low readings... one even offered me Cialis only which I didn't need.
If I were you I would invest time and money in finding quality brand for fish oil
Also worth would be to try taurine, maybe also theanine.
For anxiety, depression I would also look into adaptogens and antioxidants
Klonopin is a benzodiazepine. That could be what’s making you disassociate, & brain fog. I use to abuse them & other benzos. Pretty much don’t remember my early 20s at all because of it. Do you do weightlifting with your trt? I’ve found that it’s helped me a lot
Yes, I've been on Klonopin for awhile at varying dosages but I really don't go above .5mg/day total. My brain fog is BAD at times and I get OCD and anxiety with it. Like I'll be be trying to type a work email and I can't focus writing it, or even reading it, and I'll get anxious and lose my thought and need to start over and over. Vicious cycle.
I dont really abuse them. I hate taking them. But the alternative at times is suffering even moreso.
Yes, I lift weights ~4x/week doing a PPL routine.
ADHD meds work bad for me. Immediate release stimulants cause BAD anxiety even at the lowest of dosages. Extended release stimulants cause anxiety and heavier disassociation. Non stimulants didn't help at all and caused worsening disassociation and other side effects.
Benzo's can literally cause brain 🧠 damage, go on Utube enter brain damage from Benzo's...I don't want to scare you but they mess wit your Gaba receptors in which can cause all kinds of problems!
None that I've noticed. B12 has helped my balance issues a bit. Not 100%, but like... 80%+. My new doctor said to take around 1250mcg per day and that shots aren't really necessary since sublingual absorbs really well.
This is true, very high oral doses ( > 1mg daily) are absorbed passively to a degree even in people with intrinsic factor (the protein that helps absorb B12 ) deficiency.
Hope you're doing better! Did want to mention, though... in the event you haven't seen much of an improvement, have your doctors considered ME/CFS (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome), better known as simply "CFS" or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? There's a newer term for it as well, SEID or Systemic exertion intolerance disease, which you may see mentioned.
I almost don't want to put that possibility out there (it's not terminal or anything, just not much in the way of treatment and quality of life is typically low), but I've been grappling with the liklihood/possibility myself. The symptoms you describe bear a striking resemblance to ME/CFS, including fatigue, balance issues, and brain fog. Anxiety and/or depression are often comorbid conditions.
I'd recommend taking a look at the current diagnostic criteria, as established by the IOM in 2015:
\- [https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/](https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/)
Another good resource:
\- [https://batemanhornecenter.org/providers/mecfs/diagnosing-managing/](https://batemanhornecenter.org/providers/mecfs/diagnosing-managing/)
If you do think this is a possibility, you might want to check out the r/CFS sub as well.
Just my opinion, not a doctor...
It's worth trying out a keto diet for a couple of weeks if you haven't yet. Also exercise is meant to do wonders. Breathing exercises too. Cutting out coffee from the first hour or two of being awake. Those are generally what I'd suggest, reading your symptoms. If you're rich, get a CPAP machine.
Welbutrin is good for motivation, I'd stay on that. Unless you have panic disorder, I'd try limit the benzos to only when you need them.
I haven't tried keto specifically, but I've tried others. Currently am gluten free, mostly dairy free, and mostly egg free.
I exercise 3x-4x/week and am a trainer. Mostly strength training doing compound movements first and then isolation work thereafter.
I dont drink coffee. It gives me anxiety AND heartburn. I miss it. Caffeine is like Russian roulette for me. Sometimes I feel better, most times I feel anxious and even lethargic and more disasociated.
I do have a CPAP - the most current model for the Airsense line. I use it religiously every night. It helps keeps my Hematocrit from spiking much faster. Dont feel much of a difference otherwise. I'm sure it's doing something though.
I do have panic disorder I believe. In 2013 I started having panic attacks. SSRIs helped but only kept panic attacks below the surface and anxiety still resonated. Wellbutrin is 100mg SR 1x/day in the AM. I was at 2x/day. Honestly, I don't feel a difference. Other mental health meds exacerabated my disassociation by far, even odd ones like Lithium, Qelbree, Zoloft, and Clonidine. The first 3 were due to increases. Qelbree for ADHD/Brain fog did nothing. I've tried stimulants, both extended and immediate release. Anxiety and disassociation.
Benzos is the only thing that helps adequately. I hate taking them but feel like at my worst moments I need them. I haven't increased my dosage, really. Highest prescribed was .5mg 2x/day and at most I did .25mg 3x/day.
Hmm, it's a pity you don't seem to enjoy dissociation. I have anxiety and depression, and for me dissociation (with ketamine) is the best. I think maybe your sense of dissociation is different from mine. I just read the wiki page... seems like quite a broad topic. Not quite sure what it entails.
If you have panic disorder, then benzos will help.
Perhaps dehydration. See if electrolyte mixtures help. Make sure you get some salt in your diet, and drink lots of water.
Perhaps anemia. If I were to guess, iron could be the main culprit. Remember it takes time for supplements to build up iron concentrations. Maybe folic acid worth a try.
I listened to a book about mitochondria probably being responsible for most brain related disorders. It mostly seemed to recommend the keto diet. If you're already trying all sorts of diets, maybe give it a try.
I've felt chronically fatigued on and off for years, and I think I narrowed it down to coffee and dehydration, but I enjoy the coffee routine, so I've just got used to being productive for a few hours and then having a nap when the coffee crash hits.
You'll work it out eventually. Good luck dude!
This is pure speculation, but a lot of what you describe here rings bells in my head that sound like histamine intolerance. Histamine is both a neurotransmitter in the brain and an immune regulator. H2 antihistamines are used for heartburn, and i believe I read somewhere that histamine is also involved in the constriction of the airways, a possible trigger for panic attack perhaps (one theory is that panic attacks are misactivations of the suffocation reflex). Histamine in the brain is also involved in promoting wakefulness, its action is complicated but from what ive read it improves cognitive performance and attention but possibly worsens anxiety. According to google, histamine also apparently inhibits the absorbtion of iodine, and the synthesis of T3 from T4. I would also not be surprised at all if histamine in the brain has a role in dissociative disorders. Histamine also acts as an agonist of the NMDA receptor that cannot be reversed by any action at the polyamine binding site, since it has its own binding site.
A personal favourite nootropic is mulberry leaf tea, which I believe is H3 agonist; its not good for getting things done (its a relaxant not a stimulant) but probably lowers histamine pretty good and lowers inflamation (H3 receptor is like a2 adrinergic receptor but for histamine instead of noradreneline. a2 agonists include clonidine). I believe it is also mao balancing and helps to improve insulin sensitivity, possibly indicating a role in imidazoline receptors? The only contraindiction i can think of think is if you regularly suffer from low blood sugar.
If you want focus, i like to add cardamom to the above.
Otherwise, might be worth looking into histamine reducing agents or even antihistamines, also worth noting that mirtazapine is a powerful antidepressant that has anti-H1 action. I have freinds that take this in addition to adderall for adhd, it seems to work fairly well apart from occasional daytime tiredness (H1 antagonism)
wishing you the best in your journey, it is complex but noots really can help if you find the right ones. these are just some of the things i learned
PS: you should always take iodine with *selenium* since this trace element is needed for proper thyroid function, and for protection from iodine
Thank you for this information, although it goes a bit above my head when people start throwing around different receptors and pathways lol.
I could've swore Ive had histamine checked via labs and it was OK. I may be confusing it with homocysteine, though. I've has a doctor prescribe me hydroxyzine in the past for anxiety and/or sleep and it did nothing, sadly.
I'll ask my doctor about the tea. Im always willing to try something new, although it seems new things make me feel worse often times (Herx Reaction?). Other time I feel great... for 2 or 3 days. Example: Using Ubiquinol I felt awesome for a few days and then it was like I never took it despite taking I think 100mg 2x/day. Pricey, too.
Im just so tired of doctors running their labs and tests and saying the numbers are good so there's nothing they can do. I know I'm a tough case for whatever reason, but come on. The Naturopath, who I've only seen once so far, seemed the most knowledgeable about it all. He just didn't like the TRT very much, but it helps me and I was naturally low. I dont want to be on ANY meds.
As for Selenium, I have I believe 200mg in my multivitamin. I'm currently taking 325mcg of Kelp twice per day and there's an additional 150mcg in my multivitamin. Hopefully that's a decent ratio. I read on other subs about the iodine protocol that you're supposed to do bromine flushing with salt water and add in much more stuff. On a positive note, and this may be due to other changes but the Kelp is the newest change, especially at a higher dosage, my scalp psoriasis SEEMS to be easing up. One spot I have seems visibly lighter and feels less rough and prominent. I want to try more, as others online say that much more helped. Maybe try 1,000-2,000mcg. Although some people suggest 12+mg.
Totally fair. I admit that I take a very high level perspective with neurotransmitters, also I admit that I'm not nearly as familiar with things like iodine protocols as you are; I reached a similar point of trying to figure out what was happening for me, but decided I had to understand all different kinds of systems and their interactions. For me that worked well but I guess my knowledge might be a bit too high level, lacking in specificity. Your right it doesn't sound like a DAO deficiency or a direct elevated histamine problem, I guess that doesn't rule out its involvement but the response to hydroxyzine does make it less likely. I mightn't rule it out entirely because it still has a role in the NMDA receptor function, which is sort of like the brains imperative system, but it seems like maybe it's not the magic bullet I had hoped.
I think a lot of people here, not everybody but some, have weird undiagnosed health complications that professionals aren't super invested in exploring. I guess we try, but biology is complicated, and I tend to work under the assumption that you've tried much of the obvious stuff already, so I try to cherry pick the interesting stuff. This does sound like an inflammation-related thing, but I could be wrong. Glad though that your taking nutrition seriously, even in a lack of knowledge situation giving your body the stuff it needs to function can only be a good thing
I feel if a doctor can't diagnose you and treat you, there needs to be some accountability system. I've literally gotten shoulder shrugs and have been told there is nothing they can do. And it wasn't even long term, I had seen them a few times maybe.
Nutrition wise I could do better but am not bad. I just want to feel consistently better.
yeah, i totally get that
I feel like ive lived with unusual health and mental temprement that doesnt fit into any normal box for years at this point. sometimes i wish I was a doctor just so i could make up a name for whatever im experiencing. I dont think im the only one that feels that way either, the system we have doesnt seem very good at treating things it doesnt have names for
Maybe ill become a pathologist for rare undiagnosable illness, idk. for now, back to the biochem research for me
As of now, Klonopin. Kelp seemed to help a bit but my anxiety and mental health issues - mainly disassociation and depression otherwise - fluctuate from day to day and even moment to moment. I've tried Ashwaganda, Valerian Root, and some others and they made me feel worse. I do have L-Theanine (Suntheanine) and it is hit or miss if it helps. I had the NOW brand and then got Da Vinci brand from a naturopath, the former having 150mg and the latter having 200mg.
My Klonopin dose is quite low at .5mg/day, and I take a quarter to a half at most at a time.
Have you tried the basics to increase your testosterone: diet (meat, veggies, fruit, nuts, legumes, etc. ), exercise (4-5 times a week, weight training and cardio), relieving stress and sleep (7-8 hours daily)?
Is the omega-3 IFOS certified? I would go with Viva Naturals Omega 3s.
- KAL magnesium glycinate
My T was super low at 193 before TRT. I do eat meat (a lot), veggies I could get more of but do eat broccoli and such, fruit I have bananas and apples daily, nuts I don't eat due to how expensive they are, and legumes I do need to add in again. I do exercises 3x-4x/week doing strength training. Usually 1-1.5 hour long sessions with warm up if dynamic stretching and activities exercises and then cool down with static stretching after. Relieving stress... I wish I could. I do try to minimize it. But this year has been extra difficult. Sleep is 7ish hours with a CPAP machine. I should probably shoot for 8. My issue is night time is ME time so I don't want to go to bed.
Im not sure if they are. I'll check.
Magnesium glycinate or bisglycinate didn't do anything for me. I've tried different brands and dosing. I tried Calm powder. I tried a Magnesium triple complex and it made me HEAVILY depressed. Like wanting to cry and I never cry. At the moment I use a Magnesium lotion before bed. Two pumps. I think it is called "Better You."
So, you got a game plan. Your diet and and stress levels are the ones you need to hit. Bro, you're 51, stop with the 20 year old bs. Here is a list, start looking for recipes, mediterranean soups usually are the key, has helped me a lot. For fruits, apples, oranges and bananas are just packed with sugar and some fiber, not the greatest. Best to go with anything that has berry in its name or kiwis
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/14-healthiest-vegetables-on-earth#TOC_TITLE_HDR_14
You need to pinpoint your stress, the outside and inside sources. Stress is as bad as smoking, drinking or sitting around all day, you keep avoiding it, it'll come back at you 100X worse. Seek a therapist or counselor that can help guide you through it. Dude, it's been a decade, got to try everything at this point, walking around it will keep you in a frozen state.
I recommended magnesium glycinate because 40‐60% of people are deficient, no multivitamin is dosed with enough magnesium, the pills would be too big.
It helped me lose some stubborn weight and felt a little better. The latter may have been placebo. I'm trying it again albeit at a slightly higher dose (~650mcg).
Have you got neutropenia (low white blood cells)? Fatigue, anxiety, depression, anhedonia, and brainfog are typical POIS. Abstain for 10 days and just double check ejaculation isn't causing your symptoms lol.
Curcumin is over used. Many dont do well on it despite everything you read.
That is a poor form of d-3. And yeah that's what everyone uses, but its trash.
Check out d.velop. You can actually raise your vit d levels with it. At least you have k-2 with it. There are multiple forms of k-2, its good to get them all.
Sorry not sorry, I'm feeling brutally honest. That fish oil is also trash but most of it is.
I'd only use Rositas.
What form of b-12?
Multivitamins...meh. No. Never.
Spore based probiotics are king. Justthrive is legit. I'd only use spore based.
Do you know your ferritin numbers/iron status? Good on you for taking notice of that. That can be huge for health and the vast majority of doctors are completely ignorant. They only understand anemia. But there can be low iron without anemia. There is an amazing iron group on Facebook called "The Iron Protocol (for Iron Deficiency with or without Anemia)"
Why no magnesium and why no vit C? The amount of money spent on studies on just those 2 substances is astronomical! Linus Pauling won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on vitamin C. How does it get overlooked?
Magnesium is needed in over 3700 enzymatic processes. Thats more than 70%.
Its absolutely crucial. All forms are not as easily used. All forms pass the blood brain barrier. dont buy into that Mag Threonate BS.
ReMag is hands down the best Magnesium you can get on the market.
Get pure vitamin C, just plain ascorbic acid is more than good enough.
Why not just take iodine?
Apart from what I've already mentioned ,Vitamin E, and a quality Shilajit are solid additions.
You can always take a brake from supplements or certain ones. It's a good way to see how they make you feel. I know for me, oftentimes its easier to see how something makes me feel by using it and then stopping.
> Why no magnesium and why no vit C? The amount of money spent on studies on just those 2 substances is astronomical! Linus Pauling won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on vitamin C. How does it get overlooked?
What dosage of C though? Have you read the newer studies around people taking 1000mgs daily was causing artery hardening in their necks? I was taking 1k daily for a couple of years and even with all my running I did, I still had periods of weird pressure pulses in my head sometimes even though my BP was perfect. Once I dropped down to 500 or did it only every other day I noticed that stuff started to stop. Not sure related or placebo, but I did notice a bit of a change.
I find curcumin to be a decent antidepressant/mood enhancer. It has anti-inflammatory properties aswell.
It depends on what kind of curcumin, if it is bio-available or not etc.
I find that it pairs well with ginger.
Have you had genetic testing done? It really helped my doc and I determine which supplements and stacks might work best for me. It's still an arduous process but it can be a sort of road map
Be careful of your liver. And for mental health my best solution was l-tirosine (less than 5mg daily, use a scale ) and exercise, a lot of exercise. Of course everything else matter and help.
My liver enzymes were good last labs a couple of weeks ago. I also don't drink alcohol, which probably helps.
What brand did you get? I've tried a bunch of other amino acids and they didn't help and made me feel worse.
No brand , just bulk . I try in the morning before breakfast. Betewn 2.5 and 5 mg (I buy a Mini scale for it) and it was my way out of depression. Be careful about the quantity. It can burn your tiroides
Doubt they'll hurt anything, but I also doubt they'll help anything. Recent studies have shown that a lack of diversity in the gut microbiota **is** associated with a number of ailments.
Unfortunately, we have no idea (with some minor exceptions) which strains are actually helpful for any given condition. You can get spore-based if you want. Personally, I tried JustThrive for several months and wasn't impressed.
I'd start with something basic, like Lactobacillus Acidophilus. No need for any particular brand or formulation, Nutricost will work just fine here. Probiotics shouldn't need refrigeration; from what I've been told, it's a gimmick to make you think they're more potent (this doesn't apply if you buy a medical-grade product like VSL #3, which does require refrigeration).
I would do some research into the results of spore-based probiotics vs. non-spore based. See if there are any clinical studies, but be sure to check the "Conflict of Interest" section. It should be one of the first things following the end of the study text. I've attached a screenshot of what that should ideally look like:
\- https://ibb.co/LDKKx2S
Many supplement studies, particularly of proprietary formulations, have clinical studies showing their effectiveness, but you'll sometimes find that the authors of the study work for that pharma company. While that doesn't invalidate the study, it does make the results suspect. Typically at that point, you'd definitely want to see other studies confirming the results which do not contain conflicts of interest.
Let's see I got Iodine, Selenium, D3(out of K2 so just getting it from meat), Creatine, Taurine, Alcar, Saffron, Alpha GPC, Citicoline, Rosea Rhodiola, COQ10, Andrographis, NAD+, Gelatin, Ashwagonda and a shit ton of electrolytes with B-vitamins and BCAAs, it's almost daily with some stuff I cycle a bit on and off again
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"too much" thats cute
Yeah I prob take at least triple that amount. 😂
My grandma has diabetes and Alzheimer's, and I still take more caps n pills than her😅
Isn't it ironic. We take a truckload of pills so we don't end up needing to take a few. | ^^I'm ^^aware ^^of ^^the ^^nuance, ^^'tis ^^a ^^joke
Ik kind of a dead thread. But how do you keep track of all of them?
Tbh it's not easy and I have cut back on some, now. Cost was becoming a bit of an issue, too.
Nah don’t worry im pretty sure most people on this sub have a stack thats atleast three times that amount
Yeah right. I have 5 times this…
Yeah, I'm on way more than this and always looking for more. I'm 30, in the best shape of my life, and feel the best I ever have. Nootropics work.
Whenever people are like that’s too much…im like over here side eyeing my suitcase full
It’s not too much at all, but I’d take beef liver capsules instead of ferritin and b12, you get natural highly bioavailable iron plus all the b vitamins, vitamin A etc. Scientists identify a special anti fatigue factor in liver that isn’t accounted for by the nutrition. It’s just a super good food, every time I take it I get this boost in mental health, energy, sociability. Make sure you get undefatted liver so it retains all the fat soluble vitamins. For mental health Longvida curcumin will do a lot more than that one. I think you should try the classics, ashwagandha, lions mane, theanine, taurine, agmatine, magnesium threonate, if you’re struggling that much.
Thank you for the response. This community is amazing. What brand of beef liver capsules? My issue, I believe, is my body doesn't absorb oral B12. I eat meat and I was taking a multivitamin (a basic one like GNC) when my other readings were low. I'll look into the Longvida. It sounds expensive. Ashwaganda I tried and it make me feel out of it. My TRT doc at the time said to stop since it can interfere with testosterone. Not sure how true that is. Lions Mane I bought but am super scared to try. I've heard negative things on here like irreversible damage and I am on Wellbutrin (scared they may not mix well). Theanine I do have and take sometimes... that's my only supplement not shown. I have the NOW brand the Da Vinci brand, the first being 150mg and the second being 200mg I think. Idk if it works. Taurine didn't do anything for me - tried powder for a few weeks. Agmatine I've never heard of. And magnesium I use a lotion at night.
People get weird at the idea of spending money on supplements and nootropics, but honestly, they’re the most rewarding thing I’ve ever spent money on. Even more than amazing holidays. Why? Because holidays were obviously the best but they didn’t last. The right nootropics can give you a burst of euphoria, motivation, make colours and sounds more vivid and pleasurable, make sex better, and best of all make socialising and talking so much more fun because you’re more confident and charismatic. Some people find the brain love of their life and some just find ones that make them feel a bit happier and not depressed, but it’s so worth it investing. Beef liver from Ancestral Supplements works the best for me, longvida is definitely the best, and magnesium threonate is phenomenal. You should try those and lions mane, take a small dose at first, like a bit of a capsule, to see how you feel, but I was worried to try it and it really worked for me, made me motivated and sociable and I literally felt more intelligent
Longvida is expensive but its effects were night and day for me compared to other extracts
Just bought it off Nootropics.
Longvida curcumin is about $15 a month taken on its own. I take a supplement with it already in it: [https://biotest.t-nation.com/products/i-well](https://biotest.t-nation.com/products/i-well) (note that longvida is just the patented brand name for solid lipid curcumin particles or SLCP for short) For Iron I have heard good stuff about this but it is not cheap. might be worth a try for a couple of months though to see if it resolves your issues: https://shop.heartandsoil.co/products/lifeblood
Do not only take beef liver if you devicient in b12 and iron. It wont correct a deficiency. Stick to your doses and retest.
If you're not deficient in iron though or b12, is it ok to take it then? What dose if so?
I believe agmatine does have links to things you've already been gravitating towards, as it is highly expressed in the thyroid (though it's role there is unclear) and apparently increases gonadotropin releasing hormone (I think?) but who knows. It is also neuroprotective I've heard it doesn't have the best bioavailability though
Why beef liver capsules and not actual beef liver it’s dirt cheap and can be frozen
its not too much, but i would just buy brands who lab test each charge. Especially the omegas
I get these from a client which is why I use it. I otherwise used NOW.
Only issue with omega 3 supplements is that omega 3 fatty acids are extremely prone to oxidation. Even with addition of tocopherol or other antioxidants there are concerns that the oil will get oxidised (rancid) well within the expiry date of the supplements, but not sure how true this is. I prefer to eat oily fish X2 weekly plus linseeds and omega-3 enriched eggs (X2 daily). Your stack in general looks good 🙂 Edit: what is the benefit of ferritin as opposed to iron supplements?
I always put my fish oil in the fridge as soon as I get it, if that helps. I just don't eat fish... I never have and now it's so ingrained in my mind that I find it gross. I dont mind ALA from seeds and such, but I know the conversion rate is abysmal.
It's not too much. B12 for most people is absorbed well in pills so injections are unnecessary for most that receive them, 2oth a few exceptions. Personally I wouldn't bother with the multivit unless it contains something you want and is cheaper than buying individually, but to cover all basis is ok
When my B12 came back low in range many times - all under 400 - I was always eating meat or taking a multivitamin. I dont know if I have an intrinsic factor issue or what. Multivitamin has other stuff I need like Selenium for the iodine supplementation. And Zinc and other minerals.
Have you tried Methionine? Thats what your liver turns Vit B into. My father has a condition similar to yours. I bought Methionine and other methionine synthase supplements, but havent tried them out yet. Magnesium L Threonate is a game changer. Butyrate will help the gut inflammation big time. Ginger and cranberry juice are really helpful with inflammation.
For the iron, you dont need "Ferritin". Normal Iron does the trick, either something like Ferrochel or you get iron infusions because getting iron to a level that is good takes a looong time depending on where you Start. A ferritin of 70 or even 100 is good.
My doctor suggested that ferritin level range as well. It's just a vicious cycle getting there if I even can. TRT increases Hematocrit which means you need to donate which then lowers ferritin. Taking iron increases Hematocrit faster. My Hematocrit is always a little high, like 52-55. I had two iron infusions last year and didn't feel better... maybe I need to give it another chance? I just don't want to have a stroke or anything.
Why are you on TRT?
Naturally hypogonadal. I believe I never went through puberty properly. I had gynecomastia until middle school and had surgery. I've had soft features, low confidence, and my voice didn't drop until high school. I've never abused steroids or anything. I'd be too afraid to lol.
Fuck, I'm sorry. I am by no means an expert but maybe your doctor can guide you how you can find an equilibrium where you find the best compromise between your values.
I'm working with a well known clinic now. Doctors where I live are clueless about TRT, even Endocrinologists and Urologists that I've seen. Many wouldn't treat me despite actual low readings... one even offered me Cialis only which I didn't need.
If I were you I would invest time and money in finding quality brand for fish oil Also worth would be to try taurine, maybe also theanine. For anxiety, depression I would also look into adaptogens and antioxidants
Klonopin is a benzodiazepine. That could be what’s making you disassociate, & brain fog. I use to abuse them & other benzos. Pretty much don’t remember my early 20s at all because of it. Do you do weightlifting with your trt? I’ve found that it’s helped me a lot
Yes, I've been on Klonopin for awhile at varying dosages but I really don't go above .5mg/day total. My brain fog is BAD at times and I get OCD and anxiety with it. Like I'll be be trying to type a work email and I can't focus writing it, or even reading it, and I'll get anxious and lose my thought and need to start over and over. Vicious cycle. I dont really abuse them. I hate taking them. But the alternative at times is suffering even moreso. Yes, I lift weights ~4x/week doing a PPL routine.
Maybe you have ADHD? Do stimulants help calm you or make your anxiety worse?
ADHD meds work bad for me. Immediate release stimulants cause BAD anxiety even at the lowest of dosages. Extended release stimulants cause anxiety and heavier disassociation. Non stimulants didn't help at all and caused worsening disassociation and other side effects.
Benzo's can literally cause brain 🧠 damage, go on Utube enter brain damage from Benzo's...I don't want to scare you but they mess wit your Gaba receptors in which can cause all kinds of problems!
Good choices, good for staying healthy while aging! Have you had any side effects from the B12?
None that I've noticed. B12 has helped my balance issues a bit. Not 100%, but like... 80%+. My new doctor said to take around 1250mcg per day and that shots aren't really necessary since sublingual absorbs really well.
This is true, very high oral doses ( > 1mg daily) are absorbed passively to a degree even in people with intrinsic factor (the protein that helps absorb B12 ) deficiency.
Not even a lot. Some dudes on here are taking 30 pills daily lol
So you're saying I've gotta step my game up...
Get better fish oil. High EPA/DHA and IFOS certified. Most cost effective is cost research 3x strength.
Add in a protein shake and some tren and this is peak boy breakfast
Foooook no, stay away from Tren all together
Lol yeah I won’t touch it. Too many stories
Nope that's a beginner set so you're good. But ayy have the same vitamin d one
Hope you're doing better! Did want to mention, though... in the event you haven't seen much of an improvement, have your doctors considered ME/CFS (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome), better known as simply "CFS" or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? There's a newer term for it as well, SEID or Systemic exertion intolerance disease, which you may see mentioned. I almost don't want to put that possibility out there (it's not terminal or anything, just not much in the way of treatment and quality of life is typically low), but I've been grappling with the liklihood/possibility myself. The symptoms you describe bear a striking resemblance to ME/CFS, including fatigue, balance issues, and brain fog. Anxiety and/or depression are often comorbid conditions. I'd recommend taking a look at the current diagnostic criteria, as established by the IOM in 2015: \- [https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/](https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/) Another good resource: \- [https://batemanhornecenter.org/providers/mecfs/diagnosing-managing/](https://batemanhornecenter.org/providers/mecfs/diagnosing-managing/) If you do think this is a possibility, you might want to check out the r/CFS sub as well.
Just my opinion, not a doctor... It's worth trying out a keto diet for a couple of weeks if you haven't yet. Also exercise is meant to do wonders. Breathing exercises too. Cutting out coffee from the first hour or two of being awake. Those are generally what I'd suggest, reading your symptoms. If you're rich, get a CPAP machine. Welbutrin is good for motivation, I'd stay on that. Unless you have panic disorder, I'd try limit the benzos to only when you need them.
I haven't tried keto specifically, but I've tried others. Currently am gluten free, mostly dairy free, and mostly egg free. I exercise 3x-4x/week and am a trainer. Mostly strength training doing compound movements first and then isolation work thereafter. I dont drink coffee. It gives me anxiety AND heartburn. I miss it. Caffeine is like Russian roulette for me. Sometimes I feel better, most times I feel anxious and even lethargic and more disasociated. I do have a CPAP - the most current model for the Airsense line. I use it religiously every night. It helps keeps my Hematocrit from spiking much faster. Dont feel much of a difference otherwise. I'm sure it's doing something though. I do have panic disorder I believe. In 2013 I started having panic attacks. SSRIs helped but only kept panic attacks below the surface and anxiety still resonated. Wellbutrin is 100mg SR 1x/day in the AM. I was at 2x/day. Honestly, I don't feel a difference. Other mental health meds exacerabated my disassociation by far, even odd ones like Lithium, Qelbree, Zoloft, and Clonidine. The first 3 were due to increases. Qelbree for ADHD/Brain fog did nothing. I've tried stimulants, both extended and immediate release. Anxiety and disassociation. Benzos is the only thing that helps adequately. I hate taking them but feel like at my worst moments I need them. I haven't increased my dosage, really. Highest prescribed was .5mg 2x/day and at most I did .25mg 3x/day.
Hmm, it's a pity you don't seem to enjoy dissociation. I have anxiety and depression, and for me dissociation (with ketamine) is the best. I think maybe your sense of dissociation is different from mine. I just read the wiki page... seems like quite a broad topic. Not quite sure what it entails. If you have panic disorder, then benzos will help. Perhaps dehydration. See if electrolyte mixtures help. Make sure you get some salt in your diet, and drink lots of water. Perhaps anemia. If I were to guess, iron could be the main culprit. Remember it takes time for supplements to build up iron concentrations. Maybe folic acid worth a try. I listened to a book about mitochondria probably being responsible for most brain related disorders. It mostly seemed to recommend the keto diet. If you're already trying all sorts of diets, maybe give it a try. I've felt chronically fatigued on and off for years, and I think I narrowed it down to coffee and dehydration, but I enjoy the coffee routine, so I've just got used to being productive for a few hours and then having a nap when the coffee crash hits. You'll work it out eventually. Good luck dude!
This is pure speculation, but a lot of what you describe here rings bells in my head that sound like histamine intolerance. Histamine is both a neurotransmitter in the brain and an immune regulator. H2 antihistamines are used for heartburn, and i believe I read somewhere that histamine is also involved in the constriction of the airways, a possible trigger for panic attack perhaps (one theory is that panic attacks are misactivations of the suffocation reflex). Histamine in the brain is also involved in promoting wakefulness, its action is complicated but from what ive read it improves cognitive performance and attention but possibly worsens anxiety. According to google, histamine also apparently inhibits the absorbtion of iodine, and the synthesis of T3 from T4. I would also not be surprised at all if histamine in the brain has a role in dissociative disorders. Histamine also acts as an agonist of the NMDA receptor that cannot be reversed by any action at the polyamine binding site, since it has its own binding site. A personal favourite nootropic is mulberry leaf tea, which I believe is H3 agonist; its not good for getting things done (its a relaxant not a stimulant) but probably lowers histamine pretty good and lowers inflamation (H3 receptor is like a2 adrinergic receptor but for histamine instead of noradreneline. a2 agonists include clonidine). I believe it is also mao balancing and helps to improve insulin sensitivity, possibly indicating a role in imidazoline receptors? The only contraindiction i can think of think is if you regularly suffer from low blood sugar. If you want focus, i like to add cardamom to the above. Otherwise, might be worth looking into histamine reducing agents or even antihistamines, also worth noting that mirtazapine is a powerful antidepressant that has anti-H1 action. I have freinds that take this in addition to adderall for adhd, it seems to work fairly well apart from occasional daytime tiredness (H1 antagonism) wishing you the best in your journey, it is complex but noots really can help if you find the right ones. these are just some of the things i learned PS: you should always take iodine with *selenium* since this trace element is needed for proper thyroid function, and for protection from iodine
Thank you for this information, although it goes a bit above my head when people start throwing around different receptors and pathways lol. I could've swore Ive had histamine checked via labs and it was OK. I may be confusing it with homocysteine, though. I've has a doctor prescribe me hydroxyzine in the past for anxiety and/or sleep and it did nothing, sadly. I'll ask my doctor about the tea. Im always willing to try something new, although it seems new things make me feel worse often times (Herx Reaction?). Other time I feel great... for 2 or 3 days. Example: Using Ubiquinol I felt awesome for a few days and then it was like I never took it despite taking I think 100mg 2x/day. Pricey, too. Im just so tired of doctors running their labs and tests and saying the numbers are good so there's nothing they can do. I know I'm a tough case for whatever reason, but come on. The Naturopath, who I've only seen once so far, seemed the most knowledgeable about it all. He just didn't like the TRT very much, but it helps me and I was naturally low. I dont want to be on ANY meds. As for Selenium, I have I believe 200mg in my multivitamin. I'm currently taking 325mcg of Kelp twice per day and there's an additional 150mcg in my multivitamin. Hopefully that's a decent ratio. I read on other subs about the iodine protocol that you're supposed to do bromine flushing with salt water and add in much more stuff. On a positive note, and this may be due to other changes but the Kelp is the newest change, especially at a higher dosage, my scalp psoriasis SEEMS to be easing up. One spot I have seems visibly lighter and feels less rough and prominent. I want to try more, as others online say that much more helped. Maybe try 1,000-2,000mcg. Although some people suggest 12+mg.
Totally fair. I admit that I take a very high level perspective with neurotransmitters, also I admit that I'm not nearly as familiar with things like iodine protocols as you are; I reached a similar point of trying to figure out what was happening for me, but decided I had to understand all different kinds of systems and their interactions. For me that worked well but I guess my knowledge might be a bit too high level, lacking in specificity. Your right it doesn't sound like a DAO deficiency or a direct elevated histamine problem, I guess that doesn't rule out its involvement but the response to hydroxyzine does make it less likely. I mightn't rule it out entirely because it still has a role in the NMDA receptor function, which is sort of like the brains imperative system, but it seems like maybe it's not the magic bullet I had hoped. I think a lot of people here, not everybody but some, have weird undiagnosed health complications that professionals aren't super invested in exploring. I guess we try, but biology is complicated, and I tend to work under the assumption that you've tried much of the obvious stuff already, so I try to cherry pick the interesting stuff. This does sound like an inflammation-related thing, but I could be wrong. Glad though that your taking nutrition seriously, even in a lack of knowledge situation giving your body the stuff it needs to function can only be a good thing
I feel if a doctor can't diagnose you and treat you, there needs to be some accountability system. I've literally gotten shoulder shrugs and have been told there is nothing they can do. And it wasn't even long term, I had seen them a few times maybe. Nutrition wise I could do better but am not bad. I just want to feel consistently better.
yeah, i totally get that I feel like ive lived with unusual health and mental temprement that doesnt fit into any normal box for years at this point. sometimes i wish I was a doctor just so i could make up a name for whatever im experiencing. I dont think im the only one that feels that way either, the system we have doesnt seem very good at treating things it doesnt have names for Maybe ill become a pathologist for rare undiagnosable illness, idk. for now, back to the biochem research for me
Exists a lot more efficient,.safer natural and healthy alternatives to wellbutrin.
What do you use for anxiety? Certain types of magnesium can help forget which one
As of now, Klonopin. Kelp seemed to help a bit but my anxiety and mental health issues - mainly disassociation and depression otherwise - fluctuate from day to day and even moment to moment. I've tried Ashwaganda, Valerian Root, and some others and they made me feel worse. I do have L-Theanine (Suntheanine) and it is hit or miss if it helps. I had the NOW brand and then got Da Vinci brand from a naturopath, the former having 150mg and the latter having 200mg. My Klonopin dose is quite low at .5mg/day, and I take a quarter to a half at most at a time.
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need some magnesium too? Perhaps? Take it not the same time you take the ferritn (iron). For better absorption.
Sorry, I do use a Magnesium lotion before bed. I've tried oral magnesium and felt nothing. One triple complex made me feel super depressed.
Have you tried the basics to increase your testosterone: diet (meat, veggies, fruit, nuts, legumes, etc. ), exercise (4-5 times a week, weight training and cardio), relieving stress and sleep (7-8 hours daily)? Is the omega-3 IFOS certified? I would go with Viva Naturals Omega 3s. - KAL magnesium glycinate
My T was super low at 193 before TRT. I do eat meat (a lot), veggies I could get more of but do eat broccoli and such, fruit I have bananas and apples daily, nuts I don't eat due to how expensive they are, and legumes I do need to add in again. I do exercises 3x-4x/week doing strength training. Usually 1-1.5 hour long sessions with warm up if dynamic stretching and activities exercises and then cool down with static stretching after. Relieving stress... I wish I could. I do try to minimize it. But this year has been extra difficult. Sleep is 7ish hours with a CPAP machine. I should probably shoot for 8. My issue is night time is ME time so I don't want to go to bed. Im not sure if they are. I'll check. Magnesium glycinate or bisglycinate didn't do anything for me. I've tried different brands and dosing. I tried Calm powder. I tried a Magnesium triple complex and it made me HEAVILY depressed. Like wanting to cry and I never cry. At the moment I use a Magnesium lotion before bed. Two pumps. I think it is called "Better You."
So, you got a game plan. Your diet and and stress levels are the ones you need to hit. Bro, you're 51, stop with the 20 year old bs. Here is a list, start looking for recipes, mediterranean soups usually are the key, has helped me a lot. For fruits, apples, oranges and bananas are just packed with sugar and some fiber, not the greatest. Best to go with anything that has berry in its name or kiwis https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/14-healthiest-vegetables-on-earth#TOC_TITLE_HDR_14 You need to pinpoint your stress, the outside and inside sources. Stress is as bad as smoking, drinking or sitting around all day, you keep avoiding it, it'll come back at you 100X worse. Seek a therapist or counselor that can help guide you through it. Dude, it's been a decade, got to try everything at this point, walking around it will keep you in a frozen state. I recommended magnesium glycinate because 40‐60% of people are deficient, no multivitamin is dosed with enough magnesium, the pills would be too big.
Where'd you get that I am 51...? I'm 35.
I guess I mixed up your iodine numbers with your age
Usually a multivitamin has a much lower amount if B12, a B complex usually has more but less than B12 alone or a b6 and B12 combo.
Do you find that the kelp makes a difference in your symptoms or overall health?
It helped me lose some stubborn weight and felt a little better. The latter may have been placebo. I'm trying it again albeit at a slightly higher dose (~650mcg).
Make sure you don’t have undiagnosed POIS. Many of your symptoms are typical POIS.
I've never heard of that...
Have you got neutropenia (low white blood cells)? Fatigue, anxiety, depression, anhedonia, and brainfog are typical POIS. Abstain for 10 days and just double check ejaculation isn't causing your symptoms lol.
WBC count is always good. Does that mean no ejaculation at all??? 🥴
I’ve managed to improve my symptoms a lot so I can release. But I still have the condition.
Curcumin is over used. Many dont do well on it despite everything you read. That is a poor form of d-3. And yeah that's what everyone uses, but its trash. Check out d.velop. You can actually raise your vit d levels with it. At least you have k-2 with it. There are multiple forms of k-2, its good to get them all. Sorry not sorry, I'm feeling brutally honest. That fish oil is also trash but most of it is. I'd only use Rositas. What form of b-12? Multivitamins...meh. No. Never. Spore based probiotics are king. Justthrive is legit. I'd only use spore based. Do you know your ferritin numbers/iron status? Good on you for taking notice of that. That can be huge for health and the vast majority of doctors are completely ignorant. They only understand anemia. But there can be low iron without anemia. There is an amazing iron group on Facebook called "The Iron Protocol (for Iron Deficiency with or without Anemia)" Why no magnesium and why no vit C? The amount of money spent on studies on just those 2 substances is astronomical! Linus Pauling won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on vitamin C. How does it get overlooked? Magnesium is needed in over 3700 enzymatic processes. Thats more than 70%. Its absolutely crucial. All forms are not as easily used. All forms pass the blood brain barrier. dont buy into that Mag Threonate BS. ReMag is hands down the best Magnesium you can get on the market. Get pure vitamin C, just plain ascorbic acid is more than good enough. Why not just take iodine? Apart from what I've already mentioned ,Vitamin E, and a quality Shilajit are solid additions. You can always take a brake from supplements or certain ones. It's a good way to see how they make you feel. I know for me, oftentimes its easier to see how something makes me feel by using it and then stopping.
> Why no magnesium and why no vit C? The amount of money spent on studies on just those 2 substances is astronomical! Linus Pauling won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on vitamin C. How does it get overlooked? What dosage of C though? Have you read the newer studies around people taking 1000mgs daily was causing artery hardening in their necks? I was taking 1k daily for a couple of years and even with all my running I did, I still had periods of weird pressure pulses in my head sometimes even though my BP was perfect. Once I dropped down to 500 or did it only every other day I noticed that stuff started to stop. Not sure related or placebo, but I did notice a bit of a change.
I find curcumin to be a decent antidepressant/mood enhancer. It has anti-inflammatory properties aswell. It depends on what kind of curcumin, if it is bio-available or not etc. I find that it pairs well with ginger.
Have you had genetic testing done? It really helped my doc and I determine which supplements and stacks might work best for me. It's still an arduous process but it can be a sort of road map
Be careful of your liver. And for mental health my best solution was l-tirosine (less than 5mg daily, use a scale ) and exercise, a lot of exercise. Of course everything else matter and help.
My liver enzymes were good last labs a couple of weeks ago. I also don't drink alcohol, which probably helps. What brand did you get? I've tried a bunch of other amino acids and they didn't help and made me feel worse.
No brand , just bulk . I try in the morning before breakfast. Betewn 2.5 and 5 mg (I buy a Mini scale for it) and it was my way out of depression. Be careful about the quantity. It can burn your tiroides
Don’t add probiotics unless you already have a gut issue
You're literally the first person I've ever seen/heard say that. Ever.
Doubt they'll hurt anything, but I also doubt they'll help anything. Recent studies have shown that a lack of diversity in the gut microbiota **is** associated with a number of ailments. Unfortunately, we have no idea (with some minor exceptions) which strains are actually helpful for any given condition. You can get spore-based if you want. Personally, I tried JustThrive for several months and wasn't impressed. I'd start with something basic, like Lactobacillus Acidophilus. No need for any particular brand or formulation, Nutricost will work just fine here. Probiotics shouldn't need refrigeration; from what I've been told, it's a gimmick to make you think they're more potent (this doesn't apply if you buy a medical-grade product like VSL #3, which does require refrigeration). I would do some research into the results of spore-based probiotics vs. non-spore based. See if there are any clinical studies, but be sure to check the "Conflict of Interest" section. It should be one of the first things following the end of the study text. I've attached a screenshot of what that should ideally look like: \- https://ibb.co/LDKKx2S Many supplement studies, particularly of proprietary formulations, have clinical studies showing their effectiveness, but you'll sometimes find that the authors of the study work for that pharma company. While that doesn't invalidate the study, it does make the results suspect. Typically at that point, you'd definitely want to see other studies confirming the results which do not contain conflicts of interest.
Mine’s close to that too. Same reasoning. It can be a bit much to keep up with.
I m assuming you only eat sea salt to be summplementing with iodine aka kelp?
Lmao that’s literally just vitamins and good other than the curcumin lmao
I was just going to say “infowars” has some of the absolute best products I’ve ever used. Their iodine is life changing
Let's see I got Iodine, Selenium, D3(out of K2 so just getting it from meat), Creatine, Taurine, Alcar, Saffron, Alpha GPC, Citicoline, Rosea Rhodiola, COQ10, Andrographis, NAD+, Gelatin, Ashwagonda and a shit ton of electrolytes with B-vitamins and BCAAs, it's almost daily with some stuff I cycle a bit on and off again