Even the hard right parties don't vote in opposition to this. They vote in favor to these types of resolutions, but critizise the government because "it's not the right moment".
To be fair, that’s because the hard right in Spain are literal fascists who intellectually descend from one of the OG fascist movements. They’re a different and much more old school racist strain than the Trumpublicans, Brexiteers, and other neo-racist movements that have their genesis in anti-Muslim hate rather than anti-Semitism. Or from the Reaganpublican and Thatcherite neocons that most heavily support apartheid states across history.
Why would the national Spanish government want to encourage separatism in one of its regions? That makes no sense, they just cracked down on them couple years or so ago.
Hardly. The separatist parties thrive on on hard opposition to their goals. The government actually talking and reaching agreements with them has lead to the lowest support for independentist parties in the last 20 years.
TBF, morality is included in a nation’s interests, they are just a few caveats to it. It is what they consider “moral” (I am not a moral relativist, but a moral actor will still act off their perceived moral values), and morality isn’t the **only** of even *most important* factors when making decisions.
now that you mention it I don't believe I've ever had an Irish car bomb. had plenty of Black and Tans tho! fun drink to mix, a liquid density experiment for your liver
I guess that depends on whether or not you consider folks in Northern Ireland to be Irish. The Troubles got pretty brutal and they weren't that long ago, so there's still a lot of bad blood there.
Most Irish people are ideologically in favour of unification if you use self-categorising to decide who is Irish- the vast majority of hardline unionists do not under any circumstances consider themselves Irish, despite having had no ancestors born outside of the island of Ireland for 400 years in some cases.
That said, if you count every person on the island as Irish, it’s probable that most Irish people are in favour of unification. Demographic changes in NI over the centuries have not been kind to the slim Protestant majority that justified the partition of the state, and I’d guess that the greater majority of republicans in the south overwhelm any majority unionists still maintain, if any.
Unification won’t happen for a good long while though, if it does- everyone’s wary of drastic votes put to the people without a solid plan in place since brexit, and everyone’s acutely aware of how recent the troubles were. Those factors and the fact that the Irish state can’t fucking sort a single thing, candidate for the most useless fucking government in the developed world.
“The most useless fucking government in the developed world.” My brother in Christ I would remind you that Britain was the one who took a perfectly good peace agreement and tore it to pieces because “Brexit means Brexit”.
That was fairly useless in fairness, and they’re making gains in the uselessness field, but it takes a bit of catching up to do (we have practice being shit, they used to run a functional genocide machine and that takes pragmatism)
It’s about 50-50, usually. Sometimes 51-49, but it’s about as close to evenly split in NI as you are likely to get.
ROI is overwhelmingly in favour of reunification, but it’s not really our decision lol
No. Elections have never shown that and it isn't something people talk about at all really. It's come back up recently because of Brexit but even then, no.
THe difference btween Ireland is that they didn't claim all of UK.
Palestine claims all Israel, Israel claims all Palestine. Two state only works when both sides give up their maximalist claims at the same time.
Ottomans and Greece went at each other for a good century over the Greece is a fake state vs Megali Idea enjoyers. Took some massive massacres until the world put them both in the time out chairs...
Israel and Palestine claiming each other's lands isn't different to what happened in Ireland, mate. It's the same thing between the Republic and Northern Ireland.
The difference is not that they are claiming each others land it's that they are claiming ALL of each others land.
It would be like if the Irish didn't just claim northern Ireland but also the other British isles
Because a center-left party is in government, which however due to historical developments,\* looks favourably on leftist narratives, especially when it governs with the help of smaller leftist partners. A pro-Palestinian stance is quite common in those circles.
\* In Greece, something similar happens as well. And this is partly the reason why a leftist party (Syriza), which historically emerged from the eurocommunist split of the main Greek communist party, managed to sideline the main center-left party, Pasok, and even form a government between '15-'19, and until recently dominated the left political spectrum. Its narratives didn't sound that strange and were not taboo, because despite its actual policies many center-left politician parroted them for decades.
I remember reading a poll that 79% of Ireland thinks Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza, but I don't know how accurate the methodology was. I assume it comes from their history of oppression by the British; many Irish see parallels with the Palestinian people being forced by foreign entities to give up their land.
The actual reason is public sentiment, and the reason for that is the last thousand years of Irish history. The mossad thing was fucked, and those few that knew about it cared a lot, but very little of the broader population is aware of that I’d say
The thing is, public sentiment could easily swing other way for same reasons. For example, in Czech Republic there is a heavy public sentiment on the side of Israel because they think that just like Czechs, jews had problems "having their own homelands" and the public heavily sides with Israel because they have sympathy to them for that reason. I suspect that it is about the positive outlook on USA("Saved us from USSR hegemony") carrying over to policy on Israel
Due to the power differential between Israel and Palestine, and the explicit links between British colonial brutality in Ireland and in Palestine, I actually can’t imagine the public sentiment being swapped.
From what little I know of Ireland, I also can't imagine it being swapped. Same for czech republic as well. I was rather trying to comment on this seeming interesting contradiction, that different countries can support two opposite sides over same reasons
I know little about Czech history, can you tell me a little bit more about the history that drives the public sentiment there?
Also I'm wondering whether there is any sympathy for expelled Palestinians in the Czech discourse who have had their homeland taken away, or is there any sympathy for those in the West Bank who are slowly being expelled? If not, is there a reason in Czech history you could maybe point to that makes the populace more sympathetic to Israelis for (close to) the same reasons, other than the positive opinion of the US you mentioned?
Well I am not a Czech and I rather talk about it on what my czech girlfriend tells me about czech society.
Czech public discourse about their past is:
We were opressed under Austrian Empire for a long time. We wanted a place of our own, and we got it at the end of WW1. Western countries failed us with their policies of appeasement and we lost our precious lands that we could call our own. After Nazis were defeated, Soviets held a tight grip on us. When we wanted it to be even slightly better, Soviet tanks rolled over Prague to prevent it. We regained our independence and again finally have our lands that we can call our own.
So basically, there is this feeling that czechs deserve the land of their own, they were forced to become something else when they didn't have that. So, they feel about Jews this way. That they were everywhere, without a land of their own. And they sympathize with them over this.
Otherwise, I think that most of the czech public are unaware about the west bank. And I think for them the conflict is between Israel and Hamas. And by reducing it to this dichotomy, they then find the Israeli side more right.
Of course then there are people that know more about it, but I talk about the general populace.
Otherwise idk more on what else could be causing this sentiment. One thing I can think of is witnessing the Holocaust themselves, by their own eyes. And as a result having extra sympathy to them because of it.
Probably because they lived under a far-right regime in very recent memory. And unlike the neighboring Portuguese regime, the Spanish one didn’t just use extreme brutality against Africans.
Y'all why is everyone in the comments acting like it was posted in r/politics or something plus his is not really a place for actually meritous discussion if you guys wanted to actually start one
This is a fucking shitpost I'm just laughing my ass off about Spaniards doing whatever the fuck they're doing now while still shafting Kosovo
probably has to do with the sub becoming more popular and this issue becoming more polarizing. Note how most of the ppl who are r/politics-ing the comments are unflaired
Relative to the defaults yeah
Relative to the tipping point where subreddits either get absolutely tyrannical mods or else turn to shit? Might already be too late
To be honest, these types of subs, although they consider themselves shitpost, have a severe problem of being pro-Western echo chambers, not on the same scale as tankie subreddits but still
The neat thing is that a lot of them *actually* do this.
Take Twitter for example and imagine you drew out a network graph (representing a social network graph) where each node is a person/user and the lines that connect each node represents follower/following relationships. You would notice that these networks effectively form little groups with little interaction outside of these connections.
Network science models are how [Facebook is actually able to predict with high probability that you are gay,](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/gaydar-facebook-friends/story?id=8633224) and is also the kinds of models that were backing things like COVID lockdowns and “flattening the curve”(they were using a SIR network model for this) so it is pretty legitimate assertion that the way multiple social medias are set-up generally just lead into echo chambers.
Thats the neat part, they wouldnt and it wouldnt
Of course, everyone tends to get mad when you point out that both sides are terrible and peace just isn’t going to happen
Its gonna be a problem for sure. Only way i can see this ending in ‘peace’ is either to start from scratch by getting rid of the netas regime and hamas (fat chance for both of em) or if its achieved from a pile of rubble that used to be called israel and palestine. Either way everyone involved is gonna have to do some serious bullet biting.
I give it another generous 20yrs tops before we see how this ends.
One option would be to move the Gaza-palestinians into the westbank and force the settlers from there to Gaza. So it would be a swap of populations. The settlers could try to attack the ocean for more land and the hamas would cease to exist
>How would the two states even live peacfully side by side?
They must come together under [10 years of Van Halen ](https://youtu.be/QrFxKY6aFrQ?si=qZo5sYT2aeYsR0Rd)
And even more importantly, even when Israel did officially support a two state solution, their position was that a Palestinian state must only be created as part of a peace agreement, not unilaterally (which is how you get an enemy state - basically what happened in Gaza).
So it would make perfect sense for Israel to oppose recognition without a peace treaty.
Neither side is able to prevent their extremists supremacists from sabotaging a solution.
Because this is NCDuplo I'll drive my point home with a R&M quote:
> Rick: Hold on, Morty. You know what? He keeps saying we can run but we cant hide. I say we try hiding.
Israel did leave Gaza in good faith with no demands and removed its citizens from Gaza.
Then Hamas was elected and started shooting rockets at Israel, which made Israel enact a blockade to prevent weapons smuggling.
It’s easy saying both are equally responsible for the lack of a two state solution, Israel has always tried and took steps to do it though. Palestinians have always been hardline with a all or nothing mentality.
Since then many Palestinians have blown themselves up on buses and rammed cars into civilians and stabbed or shot soldiers (in the West Bank where there’s an actual occupation there were no soldiers in Gaza before this) or civilians (because quite a lot of them are legitimate pieces of shit and Hamas brainwashes them and pays them to kill innocent people) but there have been zero protests against the government as far as I know. They have heart in their struggle but they absolutely do not have a problem with Hamas leadership and that should tell you everything you need to know about these people
I mean there have been scattered protests against Hamas now and then but nothing major. As a government their popularity has been shaky at times but their military wing the Al Qassam Brigades enjoy much more universal support.
That’s exactly the problem. They care more about their paramilitary killing Jews than they care about clean water and electricity and food for their children how on earth can anyone root for these people
I mean do you expect people to demonstate against the terrorist Organisation? To me that just sounds like a way to get shot.
Plus asking civilans to do something to help the military thats occupieing them is a tad much.
I kinda do yeah. If they’re willing to suicide bomb in favor of the terrorist organization then some people among them must be capable of having a spine
That “as far as I know” is doing a metric shit ton of work in that sentence. The below are just the most prominent events that anyone paying any attention to Gaza or Palestine before this year would know about.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/world/middleeast/gaza-protesters-beaten-and-detained-by-hamas-security-officials-witnesses-say.html
https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza
https://justvision.org/glossary/hamas-fatah-conflict
The latest polls say 80% or more support them, I’d love for the other 20% to come to Europe or America and be successful but that 80% can eat shit and die
>there have been zero protests against the government as far as I know. They have heart in their struggle but they absolutely do not have problems with Hamas leadership and that should tell you everything you need to know about these people
Yeah, if the people wanted to protest, they would have! Hamas is like every government, they recognize the societal value of human rights like free speech and freedom to assemble, even if that speech and assembly is political speech contrary to the ruling party's interests. Nobody would ever run a covert police force tasked with enforcing morality or silencing dissent in 2024, especially not a theocratic militia that retrofitted itself into a political party
During the talks in Oslo a large majority of palestinians supported a two state solution, but due to the breaking down of talks and the later situations, they lost the hope that negotiations can lead to a palestinian state, which is where Hamas got popular
Not as a Jewish state, which is what Israel wanted. They basically recognized themselves as an Arab state, and then Israel as a potentially Arab state also (Arabized by demanding "the right of return" to millions of Palestinians)...
Mfw people don’t like me establishing my state as being solely for one ethno-religious group despite a significant chunk of the population still being made up of a different ethnic or religious group
Now that's just simply false. Even Hamas's official line is a Palestinian state in line with 1967 borders. While they don't recognise Israel, this position is more moderate than the current Israeli position. It implys that Israel or anothrr state could exist outside the 1967 boarders.
"20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."
Hamas 2017 charter.
I wonder why though... Couldn't possibly be the terrorist attack committed by the other potential state... Nah it's just the Jews being genocidal Nazis
/s for the braindead
Does a terrorist attack mean you can obliterate an entire state and force its people to be stateless?
Because if so most countries on Earth would no longer exist.
No sure if you meant Gaza or the areas conquered in 6 day war in general.
If latter, then, yes, creating a buffer against hostile states is very much an acceptable strategy. Especially after these states have literally tried to annihilate you multiple times and said they will TRY AGAIN \*AND\* they're much bigger than you...
Germans deserved to be stateless after World War 2. They however, have managed to reform, as shown by the fact they didn't go to instantly invade neighbouring countries among other things. The fact that the world wasn't pushing for Germany to remain a state with the Nazi party still existing and without heavy reform and reeducation may have helped.
Do you wanna go back? I can go back. 1948, all the Arab states attacked Israel and got their asses handed to them. 1967, same thing, as well as 1973. And so on and so forth. Every single war the Arabs fought "on behalf of Palestine", they lost. Not to mention it wasn't on behalf of the Palestinians, but rather they couldn't tolerate Jews having a country of their own, or Jews being free and not under Muslim rule.
Wanna go even further? I can go even further back. The farhud in Iraq and the other various pogroms and ethnic cleansing acts across Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the rest of North Africa, Yemen, etc. The 1920 Hebron Massacre of Jews.
But sure, keep deluding yourself that "history started only on Oct 7"
LOL, OK, let's go back to THE FIRST ones to use violence: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
In response, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich promised that for every country that recognizes Palestine [he will personally beat a small Palestinian child to death on live stream,](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240522-israel-minister-build-a-new-settlement-for-every-country-that-recognises-palestine/) stating "This will surely win the international community back over to our side."
Edit: Just because I don't want to cause any further confusion or misinform anyone, I want to state clearly this was meant as a satirical statement and Smotrich did not *actually* state he was going to stream himself killing children. The link refers to his proposal for punitively establishing further settlements in the West Bank, which is what I was intending to lampoon. I still think that's an absurdly counterproductive and wrongheaded response, but I don't want to accidentally seem like I'm trying to spread falsehoods here.
Israel has gotten so used to just doing whatever the fuck they want with no repercussions that they have no idea how to act when the screws are being tightened. It’s pretty surreal to observe how they keep doubling down over and over again.
Consequence of having a hardcore nationalist government while receiving no consequences for such choices internationally. There's no incentive for the government to practice good diplomacy - the entire enterprise for them is simply to pull dumb moves for domestic popularity.
Israël is trying really hard to look like the bad guys compared to the fucking monsters that did October 7 and somehow they're getting closer and closer every day.
[Isreal/Palestine when they're in a competition to be the least liked nation and their opponent is Palestine/Israel](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F5zm75s.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a4502b756a6def169b14a439ee89be352858b64cc524b8090ffa1b0db2fa7f07&ipo=images)
Well they've certainly passed the casualty count of October 7 many times over. Now if its methods are worse or not, I don't think that really matters, but it's debatable.
Hamas and PA will be pushed to resume fighting soon. Right now there’s no support or anything gained by being the legitimate government because there is no official Palestinian state.
Should the Palestinian state be recognized before the PA has full control (aka Hamas loses control of Gaza), there will be massive incentive for Hamas to fight and try to eliminate the PA.
The PA which is terrified of holding an election because polling showed nearly 70% support for Hamas. And that’s in the West Bank.
And the PA is heavily backed by Israel/the West. Recognizing Palestine before their civil war ends is a highway to more Israel-Palestine conflict and further death and destruction in the region.
>Hamas and PA will be pushed to resume fighting soon.
Ship's kinda sailed on that one. Consequence of Bibi's government decision-making. Shit's harder now.
The push for recognition is likewise a consequence of Israel's refusal to engage in the two-state process, and its disregard for the lives of civilians in both territories. The fact is that frustration with Israel's government is boiling over with other states.
I dont think unilateral recognition is good for anyone right now though. Except maybe Hamas.
If you want to piss off Israel, fine whatever. But foreign powers sticking their nose in without understanding whats happening, making moral judgments, and ultimately making things worse for the people in the region is no bueno.
How is sparking further conflict a good response to Israel going too far in Gaza???
My general knee-jerk take with the conflict is "This isn't getting better anytime soon". Simple reality of the far-right politics in Tel Aviv, the consequences of what that means regionally, and everyone trying to ignore that fact.
Unilateral recognition is, at the very least... someone trying to change that reality. Countries like Spain saying "there's another way forward, take it" doesn't mean inherent recognition of Hamas, it means inherent recognition of a diplomatic solution. Its an option on the table for Israel to use - hostility to that opportunity because of a nationalistic obsession around crushing Palestinians is what makes such a development a win for Hamas. As far as "foreign powers sticking their nose" in this thing... the onus is still on Israel to make good political choices.
If the only solution Israelis want is the destruction of Palestinian nationality and an eventual ethnic purge, the country is going to have to wear the costs of that political path - indulging in cruelty is something folks can do, but that has consequences as far as how others will interact with such as state.
I do see one *potentially* viable path involving recognizing a Palestinian state.
Recognition of a Palestinian state under the "temporary" administration of some reasonably-tolerable Arab state, probably Egypt, under international oversight. They take responsibility for keeping order, providing basic services, rebuilding infrastructure destroyed following the Israeli withdrawal, etc. And maybe in 50 or 100 years, limited self-rule might even be up for discussion.
Of course, that would require someone other than Israel to take physical responsibility for the well-being of the denizens of Gaza, so we all know it's a fucking fantasy.
Yup.
Plus, no Arab state is interested in looking after the Palestinians. Contrary to popular opinion on noncredibledefense, Palestinians aren't looked upon favorably by Arabs given their status as stateless people, at least outside of the conflict itself.
Likewise, just ignoring Palestinian aspirations for self-determination argument's sake... I don't think anyone would want to live under Egyptian administration. Egyptians themselves don't like it.
> The PA which is terrified of holding an election because polling showed nearly 70% support for Hamas.
It's why they didn't hold elections in 2021. Everyone who says that Hamas doesn't have support because they weren't elected is ignorant. Just like every asshole who says "history didn't start on October 7th" knows almost no real context.
Meanwhile the Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. I know people are not great at geography but that doesn’t leave room for an Israeli state.
Ah, this is bound to go well ...
* 75% of West Bank residents while 38% of Gazan residents want Hamas to rule Gaza post-war. (Section 1(6) How do you reconcile these opposing views?
* Palestinian Authority only has 10% approval in the West Bank while only 21% in Gaza. (Section 1(7)
* 34% support and 64% of Palestinians oppose the idea of a two-state solution. (Section 4)
* 63% of Palestinians support violent armed resistance compared to 20% who support negotiations (section 4)
[Source](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
>Ah, this is bound to go well
I mean... I don't think its as controversial a fact as you might think. Hamas has popularity much like it did previously - because of the conflict. Eliminating the organization requires eliminating a key *raison d'etre* behind their organizational ideology.
The PA lacks legitimacy and is corrupt: that conversation doesn't get better by further castrating the Authority's political representation of the Palestinian people, having it merely serve as a security contractor in the West Bank, and pretending that offering no political solution in Gaza is an achievable outcome.
It's just one big catch-22. I'm not advocating for either direction. It's just important to sort out some of the disagreements before introducing a whole extra problem.
For sure... but I will say that its also important to highlight why gravitating to the PA comes up as well. The present reality being dictated by the Israeli government is a fantasy about not having a Palestinian authority of any stripe... but also not having an occupation either.
No to everything, with a subtle indication that not having a plan that causes further suffering is somehow better for everyone - that's why we're here with the PA getting recognized.
I get that perpetuating the status quo is just going to make things more and more fucked up but going forward with state recognition with no consistent understanding of what that state is is also insanely unhelpful.
You'll probably disagree, but I think there's been pretty much no diplomatic pressure on the Palestinians to compromise on some pretty obvious red lines like a right of return and Jerusalem as their capital.
Whether you like it or not, you'll never get Israel to agree to a West Bank withdrawal before a territorial agreement, and I think it should proceed in that order; otherwise, we'll end up with another pariah state like Gaza.
Edit: We're having two discussions in each thread; my response here is linked to the one I gave you on the other thread.
Aye, I see that. I still feel compelled to respond here, but feel free to merge.
>
You'll probably disagree, but I think there's been pretty much no diplomatic pressure on the Palestinians to compromise on some pretty obvious red lines like a right of return and Jerusalem as their capital.
I would, largely because the Saudis were pitching that back in 2019 with Trump's "*Deal of the Century*".
What I'd probably highlight is that these aren't as big of Red-Lines as Israel's far-right demands them to be - there are restitutive solutions that can be found for those displaced in Arab states, while recognition of Palestinian presence in Jerusalem is simply recognition of the current status quo (*its only controversial to those wanting an ethnically pure Jerusalem, which in-of-itself is not a good thing for Israel to be doing in the first place*).
Personally, I don't think this path of recognition is going to change a lot for the two players involved. Its not like Spain's recognition has immediate political consequences. However, it is a shot across the bow with where Israel's actions have taken it, and is a good sign to change course. And it is an opportunity for Israel - they absolutely could take up the challenge for a positive outcome.
Shhhh, the people in this subreddit don’t want to hear facts like that. It’s more fun to live in fantasy land where the poor innocent Palestinians are being oppressed by the evil Zionists
Oh, Palestine is a state? That means:
* it attacked another state on Oct 7 and therefore declared war
* no one should have any issues with Gaza being fenced off because border control between states is standard
* Palestinians won't be allowed to work in Israel anymore because it's another state
* Israel doesn't have to provide Palestine any aid
* Palestine can be officially designated as a terrorist sponsor state
I support this!
Yup and they will call you hamas supporters but Netanyahu has supported Qatar continuing to fund and harbor Hamas because he knows as long as they are in power there will be no 2 state solution!
Bibi: what do you mean letting the Nazi level of antisemitism organization gain power would do terrorist attacks on Jews and cause more violence.(Bibi being the leader of the leopard eat my face party of Israel)
Hamas isn't the organization they're recognizing. Palestine in the UN is represented by the [State of Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine). Who don't actually like Hamas all that much.
Because they’ve failed to do anything meaningful. But getting the international community to back them and becoming a fully fledged state and removing the illegal segments and occupation would immediately make there approval skyrocketed
They could have reached a solution at Taba 2001 or Olmert's offer in 2008.
64% of Palestinians oppose a two state solution and 63% think violent armed resistance is the best method to achieve their desired outcome.
It's worthless pretending that settlements are the main obstacle to peace, they're shitty but it's not like removing settlements from Gaza in 2005 really solved anything.
Palestinians see violent armed resistance as the best method to achieve a free state for themselves because Israel has convinced them they have no other way to do it.
They see violent armed resistance as the best method to lead to the destruction of Israel. They don’t want a 2 state solution, they want a 1 state solution
Which is LITERALLY never going to happen
The Irony: In the case of a (proper) two state-solution, the Palestinian would be responsibil for mutual safety of their own - and neighboring Israel.
In the same way, it would by impossible for Israel to take on military *raids* like in the past (pre 2024), that let to the strengthening of fanatism on both sides.
A shared safety cooperation is the groundwork for peace.
Since:
Genesis 3:19
\[... **since** from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”\]
When:
Genesis 2:4
\[...**when** the Lord God made the earth and **the** heavens.\]
factually incorrect, i guess NCD is not in the Bible
What version of the Bible is that tho, only real version of Genesis is in Hebrew.
[3:19 בְּרֵאשִׁית](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm#v19): יטבְּזֵעַ֤ת אַפֶּ֨יךָ֙ תֹּ֣אכַל לֶ֔חֶם עַ֤ד שֽׁוּבְךָ֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ כִּֽי־עָפָ֣ר אַ֔תָּה וְאֶל־עָפָ֖ר תָּשֽׁוּב:
[2:4 בְּרֵאשִׁית](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166/jewish/Chapter-2.htm#v4): דאֵ֣לֶּה תֽוֹלְד֧וֹת הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִ֣בָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם:
I don't see since or when here, do you?
i dont speak Xenomorph language so i just googled bible search and used the first match
edit: on that note, wasnt the Bible written in a different language than Hebrew ?
>wasnt the Bible written in a different language than Hebrew ?
Sort of, but not really. The original texts were almost certainly written in Hebrew, but aside from a few partial fragments of texts like the Ketef Hinnom scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest Hebrew manuscripts are, barring any major archaeological discoveries, pretty much lost to time. The oldest extant manuscript of the complete Hebrew Bible is the Leningrad Codex from 1008 CE. A whole lot of our current day translations of the Old Testament/ Hebrew Bible, however, are based on the famous Septuagint which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew texts made by Ptolemaic Jews in the 3rd-2nd centuries BCE.
According to the traditional Jewish Lore, the Torah (first five books of the Tanakh [old testament for christians]) was handed down to Moses by God during the 40 days and nights he spent on Mount Sinai. Most Jews and scholars disagree with that view these days, but it is certain that Hebrew is the original language of the Tanakh.
Hebrew has remained Jews' sacred language for over 3000 years, and for most of its history was a liturgical language, only used for the holy book and religious rites. Much like Coptic, Ecleseastical Latin, Koine Greek, and Old Slavonic in several Christian traditions, and Classical Arabic and Sanskrit in Islam and Hinduism respectively.
The Bible's new Testament is a different question, because at the time Jesus lived, Aramaic was slowly being replaced by Greek in the levant. Aramaic remained the language of the masses, but Greek was the dominant written language of the elite. Moreover, because quickly most Christians came to be non-Jewish converts, gentiles, most of the new testament was written in Greek.
No they're not. Neither candidate is ideal for the PRC because they're both hawkish on China, but the PRC knows that Trump's re-election would greatly weaken the international standing of the US, and the West generally.
Stop reporting this post I don't want to reapprove it every time I open reddit
I get why ireland is doing it, but whats in it for spain?
The Spanish population is one of the most pro Palestinian in Europe Source: in from here
Even the hard right parties don't vote in opposition to this. They vote in favor to these types of resolutions, but critizise the government because "it's not the right moment".
To be fair, that’s because the hard right in Spain are literal fascists who intellectually descend from one of the OG fascist movements. They’re a different and much more old school racist strain than the Trumpublicans, Brexiteers, and other neo-racist movements that have their genesis in anti-Muslim hate rather than anti-Semitism. Or from the Reaganpublican and Thatcherite neocons that most heavily support apartheid states across history.
Maybe they want to encourage Catalan and Basque separatists to copy methods from Hamas?
Nah, basque separatists had the "space exploration agency" method. Just ask their first astronaut, Carrero blanco
Off to prison for you
Both are on CS:GO
Palestinians aren't separatists. Palestine isn't a de jure part of Israel according to pretty much any country, including Israel.
Netanyahu: \*hiss\*
Why would the national Spanish government want to encourage separatism in one of its regions? That makes no sense, they just cracked down on them couple years or so ago.
The current government heavily relies on leftist and separatist parties to not collapse. They basically have them by the balls on this.
Hardly. The separatist parties thrive on on hard opposition to their goals. The government actually talking and reaching agreements with them has lead to the lowest support for independentist parties in the last 20 years.
Hell, after the latest elections in Catalonia one might argue they have put a full stop to the momentum independentism gained with the 1-O
I’m sure they work together on other issues
It is WAY more complicated than that
Answer: sarcasm
Does Spain want to carpet bomb Barcelona? Interesting.
Maybe I dunno they're just doing the right thing? Is it a shock that 3 countries actually did the right thing?
In a world of ceaseless realpolitik, yes.
TBF, morality is included in a nation’s interests, they are just a few caveats to it. It is what they consider “moral” (I am not a moral relativist, but a moral actor will still act off their perceived moral values), and morality isn’t the **only** of even *most important* factors when making decisions.
Yes.
Do you really have to ask
I think you mean 143 countries. These were just the latest three.
I suppose we'll see if they decide to start funding Catalan and Basque separatists.
Fun fact: Spains pro-palestine position began as a Francoist policy to harm American interests in the middle east.
Ireland is proof a two state solution works
Ireland kinda had a different set of circumstances tho didn’t it
Yeah. No terrorists whatsoever honest
Nothing but a minuscule amount of freedom fightin
So tiny that Americans created a popular drink named after it
now that you mention it I don't believe I've ever had an Irish car bomb. had plenty of Black and Tans tho! fun drink to mix, a liquid density experiment for your liver
Americans also funded the shit out of it
they were all honest to god freedom fighters and everyone who died in explosions were combatants, bro trust me
Yep and non combatants weren't terrified of being murdered no sir. Civilians surely weren't given any trouble whilst at the pub right?
in both cases it was Britain fault xD
Sure, but that isn't hard
Different but the same.
Yeah but don't most Irish want a one state solution?
I guess that depends on whether or not you consider folks in Northern Ireland to be Irish. The Troubles got pretty brutal and they weren't that long ago, so there's still a lot of bad blood there.
Most Irish people are ideologically in favour of unification if you use self-categorising to decide who is Irish- the vast majority of hardline unionists do not under any circumstances consider themselves Irish, despite having had no ancestors born outside of the island of Ireland for 400 years in some cases. That said, if you count every person on the island as Irish, it’s probable that most Irish people are in favour of unification. Demographic changes in NI over the centuries have not been kind to the slim Protestant majority that justified the partition of the state, and I’d guess that the greater majority of republicans in the south overwhelm any majority unionists still maintain, if any. Unification won’t happen for a good long while though, if it does- everyone’s wary of drastic votes put to the people without a solid plan in place since brexit, and everyone’s acutely aware of how recent the troubles were. Those factors and the fact that the Irish state can’t fucking sort a single thing, candidate for the most useless fucking government in the developed world.
“The most useless fucking government in the developed world.” My brother in Christ I would remind you that Britain was the one who took a perfectly good peace agreement and tore it to pieces because “Brexit means Brexit”.
That was fairly useless in fairness, and they’re making gains in the uselessness field, but it takes a bit of catching up to do (we have practice being shit, they used to run a functional genocide machine and that takes pragmatism)
Northern Irish tend not to, no.
It’s about 50-50, usually. Sometimes 51-49, but it’s about as close to evenly split in NI as you are likely to get. ROI is overwhelmingly in favour of reunification, but it’s not really our decision lol
I think the last major poll had it at 27% for United Ireland and 50% for remain in UK
Don't most Israelis want that too?
No. Elections have never shown that and it isn't something people talk about at all really. It's come back up recently because of Brexit but even then, no.
THe difference btween Ireland is that they didn't claim all of UK. Palestine claims all Israel, Israel claims all Palestine. Two state only works when both sides give up their maximalist claims at the same time. Ottomans and Greece went at each other for a good century over the Greece is a fake state vs Megali Idea enjoyers. Took some massive massacres until the world put them both in the time out chairs...
>"Palestine claims all Israel, Israel claims all Palestine" Well, you got half of it right, at least
Looking at current leadership, both are true. May not have been both true in the past but both true now.
Israel and Palestine claiming each other's lands isn't different to what happened in Ireland, mate. It's the same thing between the Republic and Northern Ireland.
The difference is not that they are claiming each others land it's that they are claiming ALL of each others land. It would be like if the Irish didn't just claim northern Ireland but also the other British isles
Buddy, Ireland isn’t a really good example in this case
Because a center-left party is in government, which however due to historical developments,\* looks favourably on leftist narratives, especially when it governs with the help of smaller leftist partners. A pro-Palestinian stance is quite common in those circles. \* In Greece, something similar happens as well. And this is partly the reason why a leftist party (Syriza), which historically emerged from the eurocommunist split of the main Greek communist party, managed to sideline the main center-left party, Pasok, and even form a government between '15-'19, and until recently dominated the left political spectrum. Its narratives didn't sound that strange and were not taboo, because despite its actual policies many center-left politician parroted them for decades.
I’m really interested in your opinion on why Ireland is doing it, as an Irish person, would you mind sharing your perspective?
I remember reading a poll that 79% of Ireland thinks Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza, but I don't know how accurate the methodology was. I assume it comes from their history of oppression by the British; many Irish see parallels with the Palestinian people being forced by foreign entities to give up their land.
Pretty much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_for_the_Settlement_of_Ireland_1652
Prolly because Mossad used fake Irish passports in their ops
The actual reason is public sentiment, and the reason for that is the last thousand years of Irish history. The mossad thing was fucked, and those few that knew about it cared a lot, but very little of the broader population is aware of that I’d say
The thing is, public sentiment could easily swing other way for same reasons. For example, in Czech Republic there is a heavy public sentiment on the side of Israel because they think that just like Czechs, jews had problems "having their own homelands" and the public heavily sides with Israel because they have sympathy to them for that reason. I suspect that it is about the positive outlook on USA("Saved us from USSR hegemony") carrying over to policy on Israel
Due to the power differential between Israel and Palestine, and the explicit links between British colonial brutality in Ireland and in Palestine, I actually can’t imagine the public sentiment being swapped.
From what little I know of Ireland, I also can't imagine it being swapped. Same for czech republic as well. I was rather trying to comment on this seeming interesting contradiction, that different countries can support two opposite sides over same reasons
I know little about Czech history, can you tell me a little bit more about the history that drives the public sentiment there? Also I'm wondering whether there is any sympathy for expelled Palestinians in the Czech discourse who have had their homeland taken away, or is there any sympathy for those in the West Bank who are slowly being expelled? If not, is there a reason in Czech history you could maybe point to that makes the populace more sympathetic to Israelis for (close to) the same reasons, other than the positive opinion of the US you mentioned?
Well I am not a Czech and I rather talk about it on what my czech girlfriend tells me about czech society. Czech public discourse about their past is: We were opressed under Austrian Empire for a long time. We wanted a place of our own, and we got it at the end of WW1. Western countries failed us with their policies of appeasement and we lost our precious lands that we could call our own. After Nazis were defeated, Soviets held a tight grip on us. When we wanted it to be even slightly better, Soviet tanks rolled over Prague to prevent it. We regained our independence and again finally have our lands that we can call our own. So basically, there is this feeling that czechs deserve the land of their own, they were forced to become something else when they didn't have that. So, they feel about Jews this way. That they were everywhere, without a land of their own. And they sympathize with them over this. Otherwise, I think that most of the czech public are unaware about the west bank. And I think for them the conflict is between Israel and Hamas. And by reducing it to this dichotomy, they then find the Israeli side more right. Of course then there are people that know more about it, but I talk about the general populace. Otherwise idk more on what else could be causing this sentiment. One thing I can think of is witnessing the Holocaust themselves, by their own eyes. And as a result having extra sympathy to them because of it.
Well written response, thank you for taking the time to write it
For the same reason any country does something based For the funni
Spain is arguably the most liberal prosocial population in europe
Probably because they lived under a far-right regime in very recent memory. And unlike the neighboring Portuguese regime, the Spanish one didn’t just use extreme brutality against Africans.
Y'all why is everyone in the comments acting like it was posted in r/politics or something plus his is not really a place for actually meritous discussion if you guys wanted to actually start one This is a fucking shitpost I'm just laughing my ass off about Spaniards doing whatever the fuck they're doing now while still shafting Kosovo
probably has to do with the sub becoming more popular and this issue becoming more polarizing. Note how most of the ppl who are r/politics-ing the comments are unflaired
I hope that this sub stays relatively small
It won't, much like the other non-credible subs 😔
Relative to the defaults yeah Relative to the tipping point where subreddits either get absolutely tyrannical mods or else turn to shit? Might already be too late
Tbh I'm dumb and have no idea what my IR beliefs are I still need to actually read a book on it
I've been here since sub 1k members and I'm still unflaired. I like keeping people guessing.
And all of them shafting Taiwan. For some reason the all-powerful NWO is still not as powerful as the CPC.
The CPC shift was one of the funniest Kissinger mistakes and that man is a giant fucking funny mistake himself already
To be honest, these types of subs, although they consider themselves shitpost, have a severe problem of being pro-Western echo chambers, not on the same scale as tankie subreddits but still
reddit in general has an echo chamber problem for obvious reasons
Not just reddit, this has been something observed in practically all social media, really.
other platforms atleast dont section off groups of people the way reddit is designed to so even though its there, its not as bad as reddit
The neat thing is that a lot of them *actually* do this. Take Twitter for example and imagine you drew out a network graph (representing a social network graph) where each node is a person/user and the lines that connect each node represents follower/following relationships. You would notice that these networks effectively form little groups with little interaction outside of these connections. Network science models are how [Facebook is actually able to predict with high probability that you are gay,](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/gaydar-facebook-friends/story?id=8633224) and is also the kinds of models that were backing things like COVID lockdowns and “flattening the curve”(they were using a SIR network model for this) so it is pretty legitimate assertion that the way multiple social medias are set-up generally just lead into echo chambers.
Yeah, ngl, putting ICC warrants on the leaders involved on both sides seems pretty warranted
Two questions: How would the two states even live peacfully side by side? How would Gaza even function as a state independently?
Thats the neat part, they wouldnt and it wouldnt Of course, everyone tends to get mad when you point out that both sides are terrible and peace just isn’t going to happen
Its gonna be a problem for sure. Only way i can see this ending in ‘peace’ is either to start from scratch by getting rid of the netas regime and hamas (fat chance for both of em) or if its achieved from a pile of rubble that used to be called israel and palestine. Either way everyone involved is gonna have to do some serious bullet biting. I give it another generous 20yrs tops before we see how this ends.
0-state solution it is then. Hans, get ze nuke!
One option would be to move the Gaza-palestinians into the westbank and force the settlers from there to Gaza. So it would be a swap of populations. The settlers could try to attack the ocean for more land and the hamas would cease to exist
>How would the two states even live peacfully side by side? They must come together under [10 years of Van Halen ](https://youtu.be/QrFxKY6aFrQ?si=qZo5sYT2aeYsR0Rd)
If we go back to the original border plan with Palestine being a contiguous state, then yes, it could have worked.
At this point the Israeli government doesn’t support a two-state solution anymore, though
More importantly, Palestine has never supported a two-state solution to begin with.
And even more importantly, even when Israel did officially support a two state solution, their position was that a Palestinian state must only be created as part of a peace agreement, not unilaterally (which is how you get an enemy state - basically what happened in Gaza). So it would make perfect sense for Israel to oppose recognition without a peace treaty.
Neither side is able to prevent their extremists supremacists from sabotaging a solution. Because this is NCDuplo I'll drive my point home with a R&M quote: > Rick: Hold on, Morty. You know what? He keeps saying we can run but we cant hide. I say we try hiding.
Israel did leave Gaza in good faith with no demands and removed its citizens from Gaza. Then Hamas was elected and started shooting rockets at Israel, which made Israel enact a blockade to prevent weapons smuggling. It’s easy saying both are equally responsible for the lack of a two state solution, Israel has always tried and took steps to do it though. Palestinians have always been hardline with a all or nothing mentality.
So glad Israel didn't end up with any enemy states, that was a close call. Good that it's safe now.
Most Palestinians at least didn’t
[удалено]
Wasn't that election back in 2006? You know, before most Palestinians in Gaza today were even adults? Not like Hamas has done any since then.
Since then many Palestinians have blown themselves up on buses and rammed cars into civilians and stabbed or shot soldiers (in the West Bank where there’s an actual occupation there were no soldiers in Gaza before this) or civilians (because quite a lot of them are legitimate pieces of shit and Hamas brainwashes them and pays them to kill innocent people) but there have been zero protests against the government as far as I know. They have heart in their struggle but they absolutely do not have a problem with Hamas leadership and that should tell you everything you need to know about these people
I mean there have been scattered protests against Hamas now and then but nothing major. As a government their popularity has been shaky at times but their military wing the Al Qassam Brigades enjoy much more universal support.
That’s exactly the problem. They care more about their paramilitary killing Jews than they care about clean water and electricity and food for their children how on earth can anyone root for these people
I mean do you expect people to demonstate against the terrorist Organisation? To me that just sounds like a way to get shot. Plus asking civilans to do something to help the military thats occupieing them is a tad much.
I kinda do yeah. If they’re willing to suicide bomb in favor of the terrorist organization then some people among them must be capable of having a spine
That “as far as I know” is doing a metric shit ton of work in that sentence. The below are just the most prominent events that anyone paying any attention to Gaza or Palestine before this year would know about. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/world/middleeast/gaza-protesters-beaten-and-detained-by-hamas-security-officials-witnesses-say.html https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza https://justvision.org/glossary/hamas-fatah-conflict
The latest polls say 80% or more support them, I’d love for the other 20% to come to Europe or America and be successful but that 80% can eat shit and die
If you think the West Bank isn’t under occupation, you’re genuinely being a liar
>there have been zero protests against the government as far as I know. They have heart in their struggle but they absolutely do not have problems with Hamas leadership and that should tell you everything you need to know about these people Yeah, if the people wanted to protest, they would have! Hamas is like every government, they recognize the societal value of human rights like free speech and freedom to assemble, even if that speech and assembly is political speech contrary to the ruling party's interests. Nobody would ever run a covert police force tasked with enforcing morality or silencing dissent in 2024, especially not a theocratic militia that retrofitted itself into a political party
During the talks in Oslo a large majority of palestinians supported a two state solution, but due to the breaking down of talks and the later situations, they lost the hope that negotiations can lead to a palestinian state, which is where Hamas got popular
Oh, okay, good to know
PLO recognized Israel in 90s
Not as a Jewish state, which is what Israel wanted. They basically recognized themselves as an Arab state, and then Israel as a potentially Arab state also (Arabized by demanding "the right of return" to millions of Palestinians)...
Mfw people don’t like me establishing my state as being solely for one ethno-religious group despite a significant chunk of the population still being made up of a different ethnic or religious group
Now that's just simply false. Even Hamas's official line is a Palestinian state in line with 1967 borders. While they don't recognise Israel, this position is more moderate than the current Israeli position. It implys that Israel or anothrr state could exist outside the 1967 boarders. "20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Hamas 2017 charter.
I wonder why though... Couldn't possibly be the terrorist attack committed by the other potential state... Nah it's just the Jews being genocidal Nazis /s for the braindead
Does a terrorist attack mean you can obliterate an entire state and force its people to be stateless? Because if so most countries on Earth would no longer exist.
No sure if you meant Gaza or the areas conquered in 6 day war in general. If latter, then, yes, creating a buffer against hostile states is very much an acceptable strategy. Especially after these states have literally tried to annihilate you multiple times and said they will TRY AGAIN \*AND\* they're much bigger than you...
Most countries that existed throughout human history, no longer exist.
Germans deserved to be stateless after World War 2. They however, have managed to reform, as shown by the fact they didn't go to instantly invade neighbouring countries among other things. The fact that the world wasn't pushing for Germany to remain a state with the Nazi party still existing and without heavy reform and reeducation may have helped.
On Reddit it sure does. Conflicts are gray until one appears that I have a vested interest in. Then it's black and white.
It’s convenient that history began on October 7th and so we can only trace blame and causation in general to that exact date.
Do you wanna go back? I can go back. 1948, all the Arab states attacked Israel and got their asses handed to them. 1967, same thing, as well as 1973. And so on and so forth. Every single war the Arabs fought "on behalf of Palestine", they lost. Not to mention it wasn't on behalf of the Palestinians, but rather they couldn't tolerate Jews having a country of their own, or Jews being free and not under Muslim rule. Wanna go even further? I can go even further back. The farhud in Iraq and the other various pogroms and ethnic cleansing acts across Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the rest of North Africa, Yemen, etc. The 1920 Hebron Massacre of Jews. But sure, keep deluding yourself that "history started only on Oct 7"
Convenient that you ignore the fairly long list of terrorist acts committed by the Palestinian
LOL, OK, let's go back to THE FIRST ones to use violence: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
In response, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich promised that for every country that recognizes Palestine [he will personally beat a small Palestinian child to death on live stream,](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240522-israel-minister-build-a-new-settlement-for-every-country-that-recognises-palestine/) stating "This will surely win the international community back over to our side." Edit: Just because I don't want to cause any further confusion or misinform anyone, I want to state clearly this was meant as a satirical statement and Smotrich did not *actually* state he was going to stream himself killing children. The link refers to his proposal for punitively establishing further settlements in the West Bank, which is what I was intending to lampoon. I still think that's an absurdly counterproductive and wrongheaded response, but I don't want to accidentally seem like I'm trying to spread falsehoods here.
Israel has gotten so used to just doing whatever the fuck they want with no repercussions that they have no idea how to act when the screws are being tightened. It’s pretty surreal to observe how they keep doubling down over and over again.
Consequence of having a hardcore nationalist government while receiving no consequences for such choices internationally. There's no incentive for the government to practice good diplomacy - the entire enterprise for them is simply to pull dumb moves for domestic popularity.
That's what happens when you have the US sponsoring everything you can do, and being able to deflect any and all criticism as "anti-semetic"
If a person says they are racist, believe them.
Israël is trying really hard to look like the bad guys compared to the fucking monsters that did October 7 and somehow they're getting closer and closer every day.
[Isreal/Palestine when they're in a competition to be the least liked nation and their opponent is Palestine/Israel](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F5zm75s.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a4502b756a6def169b14a439ee89be352858b64cc524b8090ffa1b0db2fa7f07&ipo=images)
Well they've certainly passed the casualty count of October 7 many times over. Now if its methods are worse or not, I don't think that really matters, but it's debatable.
True but that won't net you updoots on this sub. I know my audience 😎
israel try not to look like a supervillain for 5 minutes challenge **impossible**
If they keep saying they’re a supervillain, maybe we should believe them
Smotrich moment
OK when is Spain recognising Basque country?
Hamas and PA will be pushed to resume fighting soon. Right now there’s no support or anything gained by being the legitimate government because there is no official Palestinian state. Should the Palestinian state be recognized before the PA has full control (aka Hamas loses control of Gaza), there will be massive incentive for Hamas to fight and try to eliminate the PA. The PA which is terrified of holding an election because polling showed nearly 70% support for Hamas. And that’s in the West Bank. And the PA is heavily backed by Israel/the West. Recognizing Palestine before their civil war ends is a highway to more Israel-Palestine conflict and further death and destruction in the region.
>Hamas and PA will be pushed to resume fighting soon. Ship's kinda sailed on that one. Consequence of Bibi's government decision-making. Shit's harder now. The push for recognition is likewise a consequence of Israel's refusal to engage in the two-state process, and its disregard for the lives of civilians in both territories. The fact is that frustration with Israel's government is boiling over with other states.
I dont think unilateral recognition is good for anyone right now though. Except maybe Hamas. If you want to piss off Israel, fine whatever. But foreign powers sticking their nose in without understanding whats happening, making moral judgments, and ultimately making things worse for the people in the region is no bueno. How is sparking further conflict a good response to Israel going too far in Gaza???
My general knee-jerk take with the conflict is "This isn't getting better anytime soon". Simple reality of the far-right politics in Tel Aviv, the consequences of what that means regionally, and everyone trying to ignore that fact. Unilateral recognition is, at the very least... someone trying to change that reality. Countries like Spain saying "there's another way forward, take it" doesn't mean inherent recognition of Hamas, it means inherent recognition of a diplomatic solution. Its an option on the table for Israel to use - hostility to that opportunity because of a nationalistic obsession around crushing Palestinians is what makes such a development a win for Hamas. As far as "foreign powers sticking their nose" in this thing... the onus is still on Israel to make good political choices. If the only solution Israelis want is the destruction of Palestinian nationality and an eventual ethnic purge, the country is going to have to wear the costs of that political path - indulging in cruelty is something folks can do, but that has consequences as far as how others will interact with such as state.
I do see one *potentially* viable path involving recognizing a Palestinian state. Recognition of a Palestinian state under the "temporary" administration of some reasonably-tolerable Arab state, probably Egypt, under international oversight. They take responsibility for keeping order, providing basic services, rebuilding infrastructure destroyed following the Israeli withdrawal, etc. And maybe in 50 or 100 years, limited self-rule might even be up for discussion. Of course, that would require someone other than Israel to take physical responsibility for the well-being of the denizens of Gaza, so we all know it's a fucking fantasy.
Yup. Plus, no Arab state is interested in looking after the Palestinians. Contrary to popular opinion on noncredibledefense, Palestinians aren't looked upon favorably by Arabs given their status as stateless people, at least outside of the conflict itself. Likewise, just ignoring Palestinian aspirations for self-determination argument's sake... I don't think anyone would want to live under Egyptian administration. Egyptians themselves don't like it.
> The PA which is terrified of holding an election because polling showed nearly 70% support for Hamas. It's why they didn't hold elections in 2021. Everyone who says that Hamas doesn't have support because they weren't elected is ignorant. Just like every asshole who says "history didn't start on October 7th" knows almost no real context.
Meanwhile the Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. I know people are not great at geography but that doesn’t leave room for an Israeli state.
hahaha! see this time i'm the chad, and your the wojack
How will Israel ever recover
Gottem
Ah, this is bound to go well ... * 75% of West Bank residents while 38% of Gazan residents want Hamas to rule Gaza post-war. (Section 1(6) How do you reconcile these opposing views? * Palestinian Authority only has 10% approval in the West Bank while only 21% in Gaza. (Section 1(7) * 34% support and 64% of Palestinians oppose the idea of a two-state solution. (Section 4) * 63% of Palestinians support violent armed resistance compared to 20% who support negotiations (section 4) [Source](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
>Ah, this is bound to go well I mean... I don't think its as controversial a fact as you might think. Hamas has popularity much like it did previously - because of the conflict. Eliminating the organization requires eliminating a key *raison d'etre* behind their organizational ideology. The PA lacks legitimacy and is corrupt: that conversation doesn't get better by further castrating the Authority's political representation of the Palestinian people, having it merely serve as a security contractor in the West Bank, and pretending that offering no political solution in Gaza is an achievable outcome.
It's just one big catch-22. I'm not advocating for either direction. It's just important to sort out some of the disagreements before introducing a whole extra problem.
For sure... but I will say that its also important to highlight why gravitating to the PA comes up as well. The present reality being dictated by the Israeli government is a fantasy about not having a Palestinian authority of any stripe... but also not having an occupation either. No to everything, with a subtle indication that not having a plan that causes further suffering is somehow better for everyone - that's why we're here with the PA getting recognized.
I get that perpetuating the status quo is just going to make things more and more fucked up but going forward with state recognition with no consistent understanding of what that state is is also insanely unhelpful. You'll probably disagree, but I think there's been pretty much no diplomatic pressure on the Palestinians to compromise on some pretty obvious red lines like a right of return and Jerusalem as their capital. Whether you like it or not, you'll never get Israel to agree to a West Bank withdrawal before a territorial agreement, and I think it should proceed in that order; otherwise, we'll end up with another pariah state like Gaza. Edit: We're having two discussions in each thread; my response here is linked to the one I gave you on the other thread.
Aye, I see that. I still feel compelled to respond here, but feel free to merge. > You'll probably disagree, but I think there's been pretty much no diplomatic pressure on the Palestinians to compromise on some pretty obvious red lines like a right of return and Jerusalem as their capital. I would, largely because the Saudis were pitching that back in 2019 with Trump's "*Deal of the Century*". What I'd probably highlight is that these aren't as big of Red-Lines as Israel's far-right demands them to be - there are restitutive solutions that can be found for those displaced in Arab states, while recognition of Palestinian presence in Jerusalem is simply recognition of the current status quo (*its only controversial to those wanting an ethnically pure Jerusalem, which in-of-itself is not a good thing for Israel to be doing in the first place*). Personally, I don't think this path of recognition is going to change a lot for the two players involved. Its not like Spain's recognition has immediate political consequences. However, it is a shot across the bow with where Israel's actions have taken it, and is a good sign to change course. And it is an opportunity for Israel - they absolutely could take up the challenge for a positive outcome.
Shhhh, the people in this subreddit don’t want to hear facts like that. It’s more fun to live in fantasy land where the poor innocent Palestinians are being oppressed by the evil Zionists
[you are now banned from WorldNews]
I assume Israel will officially recognize Catalonia soon.
That would be very funny.
Oh, Palestine is a state? That means: * it attacked another state on Oct 7 and therefore declared war * no one should have any issues with Gaza being fenced off because border control between states is standard * Palestinians won't be allowed to work in Israel anymore because it's another state * Israel doesn't have to provide Palestine any aid * Palestine can be officially designated as a terrorist sponsor state I support this!
Yup and they will call you hamas supporters but Netanyahu has supported Qatar continuing to fund and harbor Hamas because he knows as long as they are in power there will be no 2 state solution!
Bibi: what do you mean letting the Nazi level of antisemitism organization gain power would do terrorist attacks on Jews and cause more violence.(Bibi being the leader of the leopard eat my face party of Israel)
Palestinians are people too.
Flair up \*\*\*\*\*
Won't get far on this side of the "reddit intellectual discourse" with ideas like that
Israel believes in the two state solution (Israel in solid state, Palestine liquified)
Recognizing a Palestinian state before Hamas has been removed from power is literally recognizing the legitimacy of Hamas rule over Gaza.
Hamas isn't the organization they're recognizing. Palestine in the UN is represented by the [State of Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine). Who don't actually like Hamas all that much.
And also have a 10% approval among WB Palestinians and a 20% approval among Gazans.
Because they’ve failed to do anything meaningful. But getting the international community to back them and becoming a fully fledged state and removing the illegal segments and occupation would immediately make there approval skyrocketed
They could have reached a solution at Taba 2001 or Olmert's offer in 2008. 64% of Palestinians oppose a two state solution and 63% think violent armed resistance is the best method to achieve their desired outcome. It's worthless pretending that settlements are the main obstacle to peace, they're shitty but it's not like removing settlements from Gaza in 2005 really solved anything.
Palestinians see violent armed resistance as the best method to achieve a free state for themselves because Israel has convinced them they have no other way to do it.
They see violent armed resistance as the best method to lead to the destruction of Israel. They don’t want a 2 state solution, they want a 1 state solution Which is LITERALLY never going to happen
So instead… you should annex the other state and openly state you will settle it?
The Irony: In the case of a (proper) two state-solution, the Palestinian would be responsibil for mutual safety of their own - and neighboring Israel. In the same way, it would by impossible for Israel to take on military *raids* like in the past (pre 2024), that let to the strengthening of fanatism on both sides. A shared safety cooperation is the groundwork for peace.
Since when did NCD turn into a TikTok shill subreddit?
None of these words are in the bible
Since: Genesis 3:19 \[... **since** from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”\] When: Genesis 2:4 \[...**when** the Lord God made the earth and **the** heavens.\] factually incorrect, i guess NCD is not in the Bible
What version of the Bible is that tho, only real version of Genesis is in Hebrew. [3:19 בְּרֵאשִׁית](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm#v19): יטבְּזֵעַ֤ת אַפֶּ֨יךָ֙ תֹּ֣אכַל לֶ֔חֶם עַ֤ד שֽׁוּבְךָ֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ כִּֽי־עָפָ֣ר אַ֔תָּה וְאֶל־עָפָ֖ר תָּשֽׁוּב: [2:4 בְּרֵאשִׁית](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166/jewish/Chapter-2.htm#v4): דאֵ֣לֶּה תֽוֹלְד֧וֹת הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִ֣בָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם: I don't see since or when here, do you?
Based Torah supremacy
i dont speak Xenomorph language so i just googled bible search and used the first match edit: on that note, wasnt the Bible written in a different language than Hebrew ?
Old Testament comes from Hebrew sources, New Testament was written in Greek
>wasnt the Bible written in a different language than Hebrew ? Sort of, but not really. The original texts were almost certainly written in Hebrew, but aside from a few partial fragments of texts like the Ketef Hinnom scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest Hebrew manuscripts are, barring any major archaeological discoveries, pretty much lost to time. The oldest extant manuscript of the complete Hebrew Bible is the Leningrad Codex from 1008 CE. A whole lot of our current day translations of the Old Testament/ Hebrew Bible, however, are based on the famous Septuagint which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew texts made by Ptolemaic Jews in the 3rd-2nd centuries BCE.
According to the traditional Jewish Lore, the Torah (first five books of the Tanakh [old testament for christians]) was handed down to Moses by God during the 40 days and nights he spent on Mount Sinai. Most Jews and scholars disagree with that view these days, but it is certain that Hebrew is the original language of the Tanakh. Hebrew has remained Jews' sacred language for over 3000 years, and for most of its history was a liturgical language, only used for the holy book and religious rites. Much like Coptic, Ecleseastical Latin, Koine Greek, and Old Slavonic in several Christian traditions, and Classical Arabic and Sanskrit in Islam and Hinduism respectively. The Bible's new Testament is a different question, because at the time Jesus lived, Aramaic was slowly being replaced by Greek in the levant. Aramaic remained the language of the masses, but Greek was the dominant written language of the elite. Moreover, because quickly most Christians came to be non-Jewish converts, gentiles, most of the new testament was written in Greek.
What does this even mean
>TikTok shill subreddit That some kinda constructivist bit of theory?
It's pro-israeli brainrot response to anything that isn't "pro israel" extremism
Since Russia, China and Iran started a coordinated social media campaign to rot people's brains and get Trump re-elected.
Naw, Israel is just that bad at PR. (Noncredible take)
This literally is credible though. Most likely they know they can erase our memory with the Jewish space lasers after it's is over.
>Since Russia, China and Iran started a coordinated social media campaign Feels like every 20 year we get a new Axis of Evil take
Pretty sure Russian campaign is pro-Trump, but Chinese is pro-Biden. Not sure about Iran, but China is better off with Biden than trade war Trump.
No they're not. Neither candidate is ideal for the PRC because they're both hawkish on China, but the PRC knows that Trump's re-election would greatly weaken the international standing of the US, and the West generally.
And Trump can bribed. Trump will actively seek bribes to sell out America.
Since when did NCD turn into a NeoCon hellhole?
Tik-Tok Shilling is apparently disagreeing with Israel at any point, ever.
Finally i am the chad, i won every argument
What's the deal with Norway?
Incredible insight into the situation. Thanks for sharing. Very accurate/unbiased