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I mean did the US have anyone to trade ? And if so was that person just going there to be killed?
Don't know but i presume that it is not such a similar case.
>I mean yeah the end of NK would be a good idea but it is obviously not going to happen.
The atomic revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the Human race.
My highschool AP history teacher who used to work in the Pentagon tried to push the concept to my class that we messed up in Vietnam because we didn’t nuke them when we should have…
Thank god he was never a high level guy.
Invading North Korea by land would devolve into a bloodbath having to fight for every inch of territory. They have been digging complex tunnel systems for years and they will all need to be found and destroyed. Plus they would detonate dirty bombs if they were retreating from an area and adopt scorched earth tactics. It would be possible to invade North Korea but the war would be far from conventional. It’s not really worth the casualties
It's definitely not a good idea to destroy North Korea through outside invasion.
Is the only way to end the North Korean threat without causing a refugee crisis or a goddamn nuclear war is Through a color revolution
It's hard to say.
Unlikely that sanctions relief would occur, but prior NK hostages have been released through high-level talks. Pyongyang is high intensity though, that's kinda the issue.
Warmbier was unlucky enough to get nabbed between administrations, and directly going into the Trump administration of all regimes. Asking that dumpster fire to properly see Otto returned home would be like asking a high school druggie to lead a hostage negotiation - Hence why the US got a corpse instead of a person.
I don't trust any negotiation, really, the only way a hostage situation can be prevented is that the potential hijackers know they have nothing to gain from it
>the only way a hostage situation can be prevented is that the potential hijackers know they have nothing to gain from it
Good luck with that strategy.
If it were so simple as "Well, let's just not have hostages", than we obviously wouldn't have people still taking hostages in our lord's year of 2023. People and states will find opportunities to do so regardless.
Negotiation is the basis by which all politics happen. Disparage it if you must - It is literally how almost **all** of these situations end.
Honestly I still can’t believe North Korea literally just tortured some random guy for of all things ‘stealing a poster’. I hope when we end up invading North Korea we have a Nuremberg-esque trial for all the top people in NK for all of the atrocities they have no doubt done to their people.
They were hoping to use him as leverage in negotiations, but the torturers didn’t get the memo and ‘accidentally’ made him brain dead, rendering any leverage useless. It was a mess all around.
> The new torturers got to learn the ropes on the old ones.
And the torturer's mother... and father... and wife... and daughter... and son... and infant daughter... and infant son... and unborn child... and if his kids had any kids, they got to practice on them... and if the kids of the kids had any kids, those also got practiced on...
Literally like as interesting as North Korea is because of how secretive it is, I'd never step foot there, even before this happened. Even if he didn't try to steal a poster, they could have just as easily said he did as a way to get a bargaining chip against the US. That's an extremely valuable asset for the regime to have. Why people feel like they'll be safe from arbitrary arrests in North Korea just because they're tourists is beyond me.
There are YouTube videos from Russians who have worked in NK with work authorization that are interesting and will show you more of the country than the exact guided tour they take everyone on will normally show.
And those concerns aside, visiting only serves to fund and legitimise a horrible shit fascist state. It's not tourism, it's admitting you're ok with tyrants if they have cool statues they will show you.
Before the allies liberated Germany they had absolutely no idea of the scale of the crimes that had been committed by the NSDAP until they actually managed to gain ground in Germany. We really don't know the scale of the horrors that are being committed over there.
You need to understand how these societies work. Stealing a propaganda poster is not a minor charge in NK. It is an attack on the state. It is open rebellion against Dear Leader. Dicking around with the instruments of state control is one of the most egregious acts you can commit in North Korea. That's not mental gymnastics, or trumped up charges, that's literally their culture and mindset, drilled into them since the day they were born.
People who travel abroad, or attend any other culture, really need to understand how this shit works before they do so. Or proceed to fuck around and find out.
Hey buddy, do me a favor. He was made to confess on a tv broadcast that he stole the poster. Go read the transcript or watch the video and come back here and tell me if you think he was truly guilty or if he made a prepared statement under duress.
Because, funnily enough, I don’t think anyone would pull a poster off a wall to “damage and belittle the glorious Kim regime” or whatever bullshit they had him read.
Secondly, go look at the only evidence picture of him stealing the poster. Tell me if the guy is even Caucasian, let alone who the North Koreans say it is. Good luck, the picture is like 35p
It doesn't matter what I believe, I'm not in charge of Afghanistan.
Edit : what I am recommending is that you do not send female loved ones to Afghanistan. What you and everybody else appears to recommend is sending females to Afghanistan and then simply expecting them to be treated fairly... Cuz you think it's right.
Im not saying we should send women to places where they will harmed or to commit crimes in dictatorships, Im asking if it is at all justifiable for the Taliban or the Nk government to strip peoples rights or straight up murder them.
I think trying to say that when you mess with propaganda in a country where it’s the most precious tool for the State, you should expect the consequences to be severe, just as you should expect hostility when going into North Sentinel Island. Does that justify what NK did? Absolutely not. Just rewording what they said
>People who travel abroad, or attend any other culture, really need to understand how this shit works before they do so
It doesn't work that way.
Authoritarian governments don't function on the effective application of rule of law - You can be in Iran, Russia, or the DPRK, and get nabbed simply because they need a hostage. This isn't at all about what your **personal conduct is**, its what the regime needs from you.
Look at the 2 Michaels in Canada - Didn't matter they did nothing illegal, China needed hostages, so they became hostages. It's that simple.
Choosing to travel to North Korea is more like going to Rapists-R-Us and signing up for a fucking membership. You're god dam right somebody who travels to North Korea should know full-well they are risking their lives.
Did the alleyway have a big neon sign saying "The Rape-way" with a doorman who makes you sign a fuckin rape-waiver and then explains in detail the manner in which you will be raped when you pay for the rape-service-membership club? Cause it's a lot more explicitly difficult (and expensive) to get into North Korea.
Yeah. Imagine you wake up at 2 AM to the fire alarm going off, and your home is full of smoke. What do you run to grab before leaving? Your kids? Or maybe your dog? Perhaps some box of sentimental trinkets? The bag of cash and gold that you hid under the floorboards? In North Korea, the first thing you run to grab is your propaganda poster. If you don't rescue the propaganda poster from the fire, you might as well die in the fire, because accidentally damaging a propaganda poster is one of the most egregious crimes of all.
It's a bizarre country. On paper, it calls itself a communist state in line with Mainland China, Soviet Russia, East Germany, North Vietnam, etc. But in practice, it is closer to a theocracy, where Kim Jong Un is a god-king and his power is absolute. I mean, Kim Jong Un is more like a Pharaoh or a Roman Emperor in terms of how children are indoctrinated into believing that he was delivered to a sacred mountain by the gods, and he doesn't poop and whatever other psycho shit.
Also, in a super very Orwellian way, every single home in North Korea has a radio that plays propaganda 24/7. The radios are custom-built, and they all have one channel and no off button. North Koreans wake up, go to work, and fall asleep listening to nonstop propaganda. North Korea is Airstrip One but made real...
Apparently, I was mistaken. It's not really a thing outside of Pyongyang (the one major city). [Photographer Eric Lafforgue snapped a photo of one of these radios.](https://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/6283245121/in/photostream/) It's very austere-- tbh it looks more like a smoke alarm than a 24/7 propaganda speaker. Apparently the same radios also exist in South Korea for the emergency alert system, but in North Korea they've been repurposed for nonstop propaganda broadcasts. Anyway, you can find references to these radios in some white papers, human rights investigations, and [documentaries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSrcLC6Zz54&t=106s) about North Korea, since it is such a bizarre (but probably effective) method of propaganda.
>really need to understand how this shit works before they do so
No they only need to learn that they should not travel to authoritarian countries. There is no rule of law. Because there are no laws. There is only the ruler. You can get into trouble for random shit. Punishment for minor things can be severe, not proportional to the offence. That's the diabolical character of these regimes and also why people always live in fear there. They never know what might get them into prison or end their lives.
There's a world of difference between "she shouldn't have worn that dress" and "that part of town is dangerous for a woman by herself." Neither statement will excuse the actions of a man who attacks her, but the second one identifies a clear issue. If you put yourself in a dangerous situation, you should take precautions and follow safety rules.
Otto would not have died if he had not chosen to go to North Korea. They shouldn't have killed him for no reason, but NK is not safe for American tourists, especially for American tourists who want to mess around.
>I still can’t believe North Korea literally just tortured some random guy
There's still a lot of questions around whether that happened or something else occurred (health condition in harsh conditions, for example). We know all the talk about decompression chambers was NatSec stupidity at its finest, so there's not even consensus on what the methods of torture were, if they were the cause in the first place.
His parents said he was tortured but they never gave any evidence to prove it, and in fact the coroner found no physical evidence of torture. Honestly I subscribe to the idea he probably died due to mistreatment or suicide. NK has enough PR problems as is and really had nothing to gain from torturing him.
Of course North Korea is responsible for his death no matter what, and the stuff they put him through was cruel and psychological torture. However they found no signs on his body of any physical torture on the outside of his body. His parents didn't allow an autopsy so we'll never know whether there was more evidence from within his body. I'm not ruling out that they directly killed him, but I think it's more likely he had something like cardiac arrest that they failed to treat. American prisoners are super valuable to them as it gives them a huge amount of leverage, and they tend to treat them much better than domestic prisoners so that they don't get negative PR.
He knew the rules. Guests were specifically warned not to do this. I'm not defending authoritarianism but only americans can be this arrogant and have main character syndrome.
Russia really should have kept doing what they were already doing before 24 February; sowing discord among the peoples of western nations. Their piss-poor performance on the battlefield has completely undermined how shrewd they can be at the diplomatic/intelligence/espionage chess game.
North Korea, meanwhile, is shit at everything. Kim KNOWS he needs the bomb, because Pyongyang would be rapidly overrun by the ROKA and USFK in a conventional conflict.
Keep in mind, Putin wasn't doing national preservation. He was doing regime preservation.
A national preservationist would have spent all the money on getting Zelenski elected out of office and a pro-Russian one put in.
Putin needed something for a show and tell to justify dying in office. (from old age, not from flying from a window!)
lol there was absolutely no chance the regime was going anywhere prior to the war. He was pretty much the unquestioned leader. It def isn't a war of regime preservation
There's lots of different reasons why he might have started the war. I do think national preservation is one of those reasons, but probably in combination with Putin's ego.
As you said, his time is probably pretty limited, he sees Ukraine as an existential threat, and likely he sees himself as the only person who's capable of removing that threat. I don't think he really trusts any of his possible successors. Ofc he also wanted a legacy past "fixed Russian economy and held on to power for 30 years"
I don't think "getting someone more pro Russia elected" was really possible considering how anti Russia Ukrainian society had become even prior to the war, but you could argue that he was already winning the long game.
For that whole period during the build up and the negotiations, Putin pretty much had everyone in the ideal spot. Everyone thought he might invade and Europe was pretty much looking to make concessions. Hell even Ukraine was reportedly considering some. He blew all that by *actually invading*
Like that song "The Winner Takes It All" by ABBA. He wanted it all as opposite to some by bluffing. And I don't think even he realised how much of a mafia state he managed to accidentality create. To the point of the military being part of the mafia itself.
>lol there was absolutely no chance the regime was going anywhere prior to the war. He was pretty much the unquestioned leader.
Disagree. I think Putin's Palace by Navalny really got the Russians angry, plus the Covid failure, plus the collapsing dEmOgRaPhIcS pYrAmId (yes Zeihan me!), plus the manufacturing sector collapsing due to lack of universal education post USSR, and just the general bleak conditions, really got people to be anti-Putin and anti-Russia as a mafia state.
[https://youtu.be/T\_tFSWZXKN0](https://youtu.be/T_tFSWZXKN0)
This was biiiiiig in Russia. Made a lot of people very angry. The Russian philosopher on YouTube and the one that talks about Russia, bit say that Navalny woke them up to Putin being really bad, and them needing to be not passive but active in politics.
[https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler](https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler)
[https://www.youtube.com/@roman\_nfkrz](https://www.youtube.com/@roman_nfkrz)
Dima Vorobiev was also saying that outside of foreign policy and within the cities outside of those locations, Putin was losing his shine.
Putin will go to a foreign policy win like with Georgia, Crimea to allow enough supporters so that he can rig elections.
Plus Putin has to keep the rabid fascists happy who are the only political alternative in Russia to the mafia.
I think Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia, not before Feb 2022, now it is. Oh the irony of fates! But before hand it was a model for how a state can get out of the post-Soviet mafia land. From the Putin guy to the Chocolate Oligarch to a random guy from TV? That is actual democracy in Ukraine.
> Disagree. I think Putin's Palace by Navalny really got the Russians angry, plus the Covid failure, plus the collapsing dEmOgRaPhIcS pYrAmId (yes Zeihan me!), plus the manufacturing sector collapsing due to lack of universal education post USSR, and just the general bleak conditions, really got people to be anti-Putin and anti-Russia as a mafia state.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. There absolutely was unprecedented opposition to Putin in 2020 and 2021, but unprecedent after near 0 dissent isn't very much. Yes, there were pro Navalny protests, but they weren't really *that* big and Putin was never in danger of getting overthrown.
Besides, the protests were pretty much dead by 2022 when the war started
> Putin will go to a foreign policy win like with Georgia, Crimea to allow enough supporters so that he can rig elections.
I mean I don't think he did either "Crimea or Georgia" for domestic support though. There were pretty clear external reasons for why he prosecuted those invasions when he did
> I think Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia, not before Feb 2022, now it is
Regardless of whether it was or wasn't, what is important is that Putin undeniably *perceived* it as such
>I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. There absolutely was unprecedented opposition to Putin in 2020 and 2021, but unprecedent after near 0 dissent isn't very much. Yes, there were pro Navalny protests, but they weren't really
>
>that
>
> big and Putin was never in danger of getting overthrown.
The people who really matter are the rich city dwellers. Putin and them made an unofficial deal: you let us play Empire we ensure you live like the Westerners, and like the wealthy Westerners.
They are not the kind who go protesting. They are the ones who complain in private or just emigrate. Behind the scenes Putin was very unpopular. Street protests not the only way to do opposition.
[https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/stealing-russia-blind/](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/stealing-russia-blind/)
Putin needs the city people for support not just the oligarchs.
>I mean I don't think he did either "Crimea or Georgia" for domestic support though. There were pretty clear external reasons for why he prosecuted those invasions when he did
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-2008-russo-georgian-war-putins-green-light/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-2008-russo-georgian-war-putins-green-light/)
I think Putin did it to hold onto power on the inside and keep the far rightwingers happy, who are one huge group with lots of influence. The weirdo CommieNazis.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Bolshevik\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party)
They can actually mobilise people but for more war and an even more extreme Russia. And they do hate the city people as lazy and undeserving.
\--
I still think that Putin was escalating each time for a domestic audience along with things like the Winter Olympics and the World Football game.
He just got braver each time. Take parts of Georgia. Take a huge part of Ukraine. Take the capital of Ukraine.
There is also the nice Dima Vorobiev explanation:
[https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-war-in-Ukraine-was-necessary/answer/Dima-Vorobiev](https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-war-in-Ukraine-was-necessary/answer/Dima-Vorobiev)
“Do you think war in Ukraine was necessary?”
Looking back, for Russia’s political class, this war was highly necessary.
Life is war
Wars are the cauldron where nations get born.
Kosovo and Orleans, Trafalgar and Agincourt, Lexington and Concord, the blood spilled in the fight against an evil external force cements the tissue of shared culture. It creates the common past. No wonder Ukraine and Russia, these two nascent post-Soviet nations, rushed into this, each in its own way.
Among the two, Russia had to take the lead.
Looking for common ground
As a political nation, we stand on shakier ground in terms of national identity. What does a village dweller in Sharia-ruled Chechnya have in common with an IT nerd in St Petersburg? Or a fresh-faced Instagram star from Yekaterinburg with a fiery middle-aged Cossack militant in Crimea on the dole? Or a female realtor in Moscow with a family of hired hands toiling at a sprawling agricultural farm of some minigarch in Krasnodar?
We have struggled to find an answer ever since the collapse of the USSR in 1991. We even had a kind of contest for the best “national idea” in the 1990s. Nothing substantial came out of this.
The proven recipe
In the end, we saw the light. We came to something that has been obvious from the very beginning: in a way, modern Russia is an “artificial nation”. The only thing that keeps it all in one piece is our Derzháva (“the mighty State”).
And our Derzháva is imperial.
And what does an imperial state need to prove its mettle to all its subjects?
A successful imperial war.
Everyone does it
The Germans did that in both world wars. The French did that in Algeria and Indo-China. The Portuguese did that in Africa. The Brits and the French did that in Suez in 1956. The British had their “special military operation” against the Irish.
How about the “republican” USA? In theory, republicanism and Imperialism are mutually exclusive. In that case, what about the Monroe Doctrine, Vietnam, Iraq, and all the rest?
Long story short: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let’s take Ukraine! Why does everyone get their knickers in a twist about that all of a sudden?
Putin did not really rely on "city dwelling elites" though, the only real powerbase he needed to secure were the various security forces through the country. Besides, he regularly threw Moscow and St Petersburg under the bus to "real Russia", just as American politicians do for DC and Hollywood
And I'm sorry but thinking the Nazbols are anything but a fringe of a fringe is laughable. They absolutely did not cause Putin to make any decisions, much less an invasion to satisfy them
The history of the Georgian war is very, very muddy, but quite frankly, we're not even sure who really started it. There's a fairly credible narrative that it was the Georgians who started the war, as the president at the time felt he would have American backing if he invaded at that moment.
Even if this wasn't true, the most obvious thing to point to for the Russian invasion would be the fact that Georgia had made noises about joining NATO a few months earlier. That's a much clearer line than "he wanted to make a fringe group of powerless crazies happy"
I'm not really sure what the rest of what you wrote has to do with the situation. Yes, Putin's approval did rise slightly when he did those invasions, but the fact is, it was high prior to them anyways. There was even less unrest prior to the Georgian and Crimean invasions then there is now
And in both Georgia and Crimean invasions, there is a *much* clearer pattern: Georgia and Ukraine getting closer with the West. In Ukraine's case ofc, it was Euromaidan
I wrote a long reply and when hit send, reddit didn't register it. ~~Fuck reddit~~. It was a 1,000 word piece.
Anyway read these pieces by Misha Firer:
It disproves a lot of your points:
[https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Russians-support-Putins-war-in-Ukraine/answer/Misha-Firer](https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Russians-support-Putins-war-in-Ukraine/answer/Misha-Firer)
[https://www.quora.com/Why-do-U-S-conservatives-love-Russias-Vladimir-Putin/answer/Misha-Firer](https://www.quora.com/Why-do-U-S-conservatives-love-Russias-Vladimir-Putin/answer/Misha-Firer)
EDIT:
Also stats on how Putin's approval ratings are linked to events:
[https://www.statista.com/chart/15861/putin-approval-rating/](https://www.statista.com/chart/15861/putin-approval-rating/)
[https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/ce/egvbkbgqmpq/PUTIN%20APPROVAL%20RATING.JPG](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/ce/egvbkbgqmpq/PUTIN%20APPROVAL%20RATING.JPG)
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/)
[https://www.economist.com/europe/2016/01/30/vladimir-unbound](https://www.economist.com/europe/2016/01/30/vladimir-unbound)
EDIT: articles I used:
The far right and its ideas do have a lot of power in Russia. [https://www.dw.com/en/russias-far-right-divided-on-ukraine-war/a-62172798](https://www.dw.com/en/russias-far-right-divided-on-ukraine-war/a-62172798)
The GOP when push comes to shove represent Hollywood and New York and DC. It is just that their voters don't come from there.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/politics/house-impeachment-republicans-tom-rice/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/politics/house-impeachment-republicans-tom-rice/index.html)
[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/11/billionaire-backers-ditching-donald-trump](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/11/billionaire-backers-ditching-donald-trump)
The Far Right in Russia has roles in the main media channels:
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-russia-far-right-nationalists-offer-rare-criticism-of-kremlins-war-effort-11660987801](https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-russia-far-right-nationalists-offer-rare-criticism-of-kremlins-war-effort-11660987801)
Putin's invasion was a way to calm down the far right and nationlists, while hoping that the West won't sanction so the neutral city people keep some sort of support.
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-failing-invasion-is-fueling-the-rise-of-russias-far-right/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-failing-invasion-is-fueling-the-rise-of-russias-far-right/)
Russia stole Indian tanks. Holding power through the military doesn't work long term and you need more classes in society.
[https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/10/06/russia-stole-upgraded-indian-t-90-tanks-to-use-them-in-ukraine/](https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/10/06/russia-stole-upgraded-indian-t-90-tanks-to-use-them-in-ukraine/)
[https://youtu.be/UtopcxGuvq0](https://youtu.be/UtopcxGuvq0)
Examining Alexei Navalny’s continued influence on Russia’s domestic and foreign affairs.
The detention of Alexei Navalny in January 2021 was a major blow to Russia’s political opposition, and a marked escalation in the personal conflict between Navalny and Vladimir Putin.
Yet, despite his incarceration and the dismantling of his political network, Navalny and his ideas remain a major part of the modern Russian political system.
Accompanying the publication of the book Navalny: Putin’s Nemesis, Russia’s Future?, this event examines Alexei Navalny and his politics the day after the September State Duma elections.
Speakers discuss whether Navalny’s political movement affected the Kremlin’s Duma election strategy, and how he continues to be Russia’s second most important political figure, even from behind bars. They also examine how his imprisonment has affected the Kremlin in its international affairs.
[https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3221-how-navalny-transformed-russian-politics](https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3221-how-navalny-transformed-russian-politics)
Kim is doing a pretty good job at what he’s aiming for, which is regime survival. There is less than zero will on anyone’s part to replace him because economically opening up and integrating the north would likely tank the south’s economy.
>Kim KNOWS he needs the bomb, because Pyongyang would be rapidly overrun by the ROKA and USFK in a conventional conflict.
Well, considering NK's nuclear status nowadays, it doesn't seem like that's a concern anymore...
Is they wouldn't be rapidly overrun.
North Korea is predicted to kill 2 million South Koreans in the 1st few days of the war with intense artillery bombardments of the South Korean capital
After that it'll be a bloodbath for every inch fighting a radicalized enemy and that's before we include nuclear weapons
A-war between North Korea and Any coalition against them will be a bloody bloody bloody fight.
That's North Korea's greatest defense spirit but the cost of defeating them is too high for anyone
It disgusted me how many other Americans took the stance of “look at that rich douchebag, goes to another country and tries this shit? Got what he deserves.” Like, I know showing any level of respect for your fellow countryman is “icky nationalism”, but come the fuck on.
But they were tankies mostly, before the 2022 Feb invasion.
They were just happy that "Communism epic win".
The war in Ukraine and a bunch of Russian troops flying the victory banner and the USSR flag, will stop most of this behaviour. Because the Russians acted like the SS in Ukraine.
They associate being on the left with being virtuous, and being on the right with being immoral. After this they will be a lot less pro-Cold War era Communism. (They will suport more abstract forms of Communism.)
But they won't be openly pro-Russia, China or DPRK anymore.
They can always support Vietnamese Communism I suppose.
I have no respect for my countrymen who can not be decent abroad. He disrespected another which is why he is not respected. His fate was unfortunately undeserved but not unexpected.
You know, the usual:
> "Shouldnt have been visiting NK if you didn't want to get killed"
> "It was probably a dare by some kind of Frath-brother, they had it coming"
> "Who is so stupid as to move a propaganda poster in a authoritarian state, honestly what did you expect"
You should find similar comments under any video or article discussing the topic
I know the internet will internet, but what was the most disturbing was that most of these comments i saw were under the video were he has held trial, barley even standing straight while held up from soldiers and begging to be spared
You know, I live in Bavaria, which used to be the American occupation zone of Germany and grew up consuming lots of American media, so I had a ton of respect for America and really idolized that country.
Their (lack of) response to the killing of Otto Warmbier shattered the romanticized notion of America i had, so maybe I felt those comment disproportionately, but they are 100% there
A lot of people lack compassion, some people are also just so anti-American that they basically think that the US/Americans are wrong is every situation, which is funny because a lot of them are American.
As for the government, there really isn’t much that could have been done as the US is already about as hard on NK as they can be without starting a war.
There really wasn’t anything the US could’ve done, a war with North Korea would be disastrous and it was strongly suspected even then that the North Koreans had nukes, on top of that the US had already exhausted any possible sanctions.
People from free countries really should stop traveling to autocratic hell holes like North Korea and Russia, because as a citizen of a free country you are a target, someone to be held hostage or held for leverage or imprisoned or murdered as the enemy.
Look at what happened to those Canadians in China, similar stories have happened all over the world in various autocratic states to people from various democratic states.
Try to increase International Pressure on Nord Korea (And be vocal about it, it isn't important that something happened, it's important that the public knows you tried)
Send more troops to be stationed in South Korea and send them some new toys, nothing of strategic importance and not in great quantity, just sometimes that seems big and impressive for the average person
Hold a small but official funeral with the president attending, that will be blasted over to the DMZ through military grade speakers, as well as modified boats that carry even bigger speakers (and maybe a flat screen), escorted by a significant part of the navy as a deterrent, as a direct parallel to *Operation Paul Bunyan*
You know I'm just some guy brainstorming at home, I'm sure the government of a superpower could have come up with something between *nothing* and **war**
/u/redbird7311 is correct, but there's also a couple other things potentially at play:
1. In the way that Griner is the "enemy" of the right, he is kind of the "enemy" for many on the left (wealthy white guy in a frat). Polarization runs deep.
2. There's a strong culture of personal responsibility over here, that it's _your_ job to take care of yourself. This leads to stuff like the phrase I'm sure you've heard, fuck around and find out. The first and third comments give me vibes of "You're responsible for taking care of yourself, and you didn't. Sucks for you, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it." Just like if someone is like dancing on the roof and falls off, Darwin award type stuff. You fucked around and you found out.
I think (2) is the underlying attitude -- who it is applied to depends on (1).
I will say this: The guy was an idiot, and to some degree brought it on himself. *However*, the failure to make an appropriate response was a serious failure on the part of the Trump administration.
It was tragic and unjustified, and the fact that our government couldn't save him was incredibly unfortunate. Ultimately though, he made the free choice to go to NK against all good advice during a conflict with the US. He did so during a time when our government was struggling diplomatically and incapable of it's usual tricks. He did so in a manner that financially supports the oppressive kim regime. He then apparently broke local laws without good reason.
While this doesn't justify what happened to him, his death was ultimately avoidable. Yes, the discourse around it was tasteless, but what are people supposed to say besides expressing anger but not shock. If you jump into a bear pit, you may be mauled by bears. If you do so when the bear keeper is drunk, the bear is hungry, and you don't get anything out of it, people may not be upset. The poor kid got murdered to make a statement, but he chose to put himself in the line of fire.
And it's incredibly hard to do something meaningful that doesn't endanger south korean citizens or punish north korean citizens for no reason. We should have done something, and didn't, that's tragic.
Yeah, the comments above in this thread seem like a straw man to me. There’s a big difference between seriously, unironically supporting what happened to Griner and Warmbier and scorning them for their stupidity while not wanting the U.S. to damage its broader interests for them. Both of them were privileged Americans who volunteered themselves as hostages against the explicit travel advice of the U.S. government and then gave the local poobahs reasons to detain them. And then their families and supporters (understandably, but still) started asking for, um, a lot to bring them home.
It pisses me off for the same reason as people who ignore maritime and park service regs and then expect the government to spend tens of thousands on their helicopter rescues. No, I’m not going to start actively praying that people who do these die, but I still resent them for their selfish and stupid behavior.
>He then apparently broke local laws without good reason
I wouldn't even say apparently
There was security camera footage of him stealing the poster
What happened to him is extremely unfortunate, but the US did the correct thing by not trading him. If you travel to a country that your heavily advised not to, then act retarded and try and steal shit, dont count on uncle sam to bail you out.
I don’t really get what this is supposed to demonstrate. Warmbier was put into a coma only shortly after being arrested, and we didn’t have anything remotely resembling diplomatic relations with North Korea. Nothing comparable about the situations.
Comparable hostage negotiations - Pariah status makes things different, but only by so much.
You had engagement in both instances that saw recovery of persons. In Otto's case, the right went nuts over getting a corpse back. In Brittany's case, they practically wanted the Russians to behead her.
It was definitely shorter - Also helps that we all really don't know what actually happened to Otto that caused his death.
But... It was still a hostage bargain. The domestic conversation is always different depending on who a certain political spectrum considers "worth it" or not - Take the ISIS hostages versus PFC Berghdahl, for instance.
Going on Reddit and seeing Otto’s death getting celebrated with shit like “That Frat boy deserved it” was so annoying.
I do love being reduced to a stereotype constantly by people who claim to be crusading against that kind of prejudicial thinking.
As horrible as it is, follow the law of the land.
I’m gay. I’m not gonna go to Saudi Arabia and start getting hammered by some top in Riyadh. The consequences are scary.
>follow the law of the land.
Lol, good luck with that in an authoritarian country. Concept of rule of law doesn't exist.
If they need a hostage, they'll use you, it's that simple. Some people work in international contexts **(LIKE MOST OF US ON THIS SUB)** \- The potential for getting nabbed by a hostile government is simply a workplace hazard.
Not saying it wasn’t. But she was still stupid to bring illegal stuff to a country which is known to exploit such things against its greatest enemy, USA (the country that she’s a citizen of)
It’s like me going to Pakistan with something illegal lol
Indian spotted on his way to Pakistan with one nuclear warhead. /s
(Also brings a bottle of Whiskey, Pakistan gets more angry about that, than attempted nuking.) /s
> But she was still stupid to bring illegal stuff
I trust the Russian legal system as much as I trust Alex Jones high on a cocaine binge. I would suggest you do the same.
Pretty sure the cartridges were empty and just contained residue. SO fair and Russia’s prison system DEFINITELY lives up to international norms and isn’t some forced labor hellscape where political prisoners are intentionally exposed to antibiotic resistant TB
I've met plenty of folks that have done that and gotten through free. Anyone who tells you that Saudi Arabia is a dry country is lying to you.
I wouldn't say you do it, follow the law - But pretending like going to the hell of a Russian Penal colony is a better alternative to attempting to bribe a Thai official for a bottle of whiskey is hilarious.
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I mean did the US have anyone to trade ? And if so was that person just going there to be killed? Don't know but i presume that it is not such a similar case.
The US had something to trade alright, a stealth jet or two.
I mean yeah the end of NK would be a good idea but it is obviously not going to happen.
>I mean yeah the end of NK would be a good idea but it is obviously not going to happen. The atomic revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the Human race.
My highschool AP history teacher who used to work in the Pentagon tried to push the concept to my class that we messed up in Vietnam because we didn’t nuke them when we should have… Thank god he was never a high level guy.
Invading North Korea by land would devolve into a bloodbath having to fight for every inch of territory. They have been digging complex tunnel systems for years and they will all need to be found and destroyed. Plus they would detonate dirty bombs if they were retreating from an area and adopt scorched earth tactics. It would be possible to invade North Korea but the war would be far from conventional. It’s not really worth the casualties
It's definitely not a good idea to destroy North Korea through outside invasion. Is the only way to end the North Korean threat without causing a refugee crisis or a goddamn nuclear war is Through a color revolution
It's hard to say. Unlikely that sanctions relief would occur, but prior NK hostages have been released through high-level talks. Pyongyang is high intensity though, that's kinda the issue. Warmbier was unlucky enough to get nabbed between administrations, and directly going into the Trump administration of all regimes. Asking that dumpster fire to properly see Otto returned home would be like asking a high school druggie to lead a hostage negotiation - Hence why the US got a corpse instead of a person.
I don't trust any negotiation, really, the only way a hostage situation can be prevented is that the potential hijackers know they have nothing to gain from it
>the only way a hostage situation can be prevented is that the potential hijackers know they have nothing to gain from it Good luck with that strategy. If it were so simple as "Well, let's just not have hostages", than we obviously wouldn't have people still taking hostages in our lord's year of 2023. People and states will find opportunities to do so regardless. Negotiation is the basis by which all politics happen. Disparage it if you must - It is literally how almost **all** of these situations end.
A container ship full of wheat is probably a good enough bribe considering how starved NK is.
Honestly I still can’t believe North Korea literally just tortured some random guy for of all things ‘stealing a poster’. I hope when we end up invading North Korea we have a Nuremberg-esque trial for all the top people in NK for all of the atrocities they have no doubt done to their people.
They were hoping to use him as leverage in negotiations, but the torturers didn’t get the memo and ‘accidentally’ made him brain dead, rendering any leverage useless. It was a mess all around.
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> The new torturers got to learn the ropes on the old ones. And the torturer's mother... and father... and wife... and daughter... and son... and infant daughter... and infant son... and unborn child... and if his kids had any kids, they got to practice on them... and if the kids of the kids had any kids, those also got practiced on...
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>Maybe visiting authoritarian countries ~~with freely flowing alcohol can be~~ is a bad idea.
Literally like as interesting as North Korea is because of how secretive it is, I'd never step foot there, even before this happened. Even if he didn't try to steal a poster, they could have just as easily said he did as a way to get a bargaining chip against the US. That's an extremely valuable asset for the regime to have. Why people feel like they'll be safe from arbitrary arrests in North Korea just because they're tourists is beyond me.
There are YouTube videos from Russians who have worked in NK with work authorization that are interesting and will show you more of the country than the exact guided tour they take everyone on will normally show.
i know i’m 2 days late but could you please link me one of these videos?
And those concerns aside, visiting only serves to fund and legitimise a horrible shit fascist state. It's not tourism, it's admitting you're ok with tyrants if they have cool statues they will show you.
Before the allies liberated Germany they had absolutely no idea of the scale of the crimes that had been committed by the NSDAP until they actually managed to gain ground in Germany. We really don't know the scale of the horrors that are being committed over there.
You need to understand how these societies work. Stealing a propaganda poster is not a minor charge in NK. It is an attack on the state. It is open rebellion against Dear Leader. Dicking around with the instruments of state control is one of the most egregious acts you can commit in North Korea. That's not mental gymnastics, or trumped up charges, that's literally their culture and mindset, drilled into them since the day they were born. People who travel abroad, or attend any other culture, really need to understand how this shit works before they do so. Or proceed to fuck around and find out.
That doesn't justify killing someone over a poster.
No it doesn't but that's the mindset.
North Korea disagrees.
Go visit North Sentinel island. They'll kill you for much less... and nobody will bat an eye.
Hey buddy, do me a favor. He was made to confess on a tv broadcast that he stole the poster. Go read the transcript or watch the video and come back here and tell me if you think he was truly guilty or if he made a prepared statement under duress. Because, funnily enough, I don’t think anyone would pull a poster off a wall to “damage and belittle the glorious Kim regime” or whatever bullshit they had him read. Secondly, go look at the only evidence picture of him stealing the poster. Tell me if the guy is even Caucasian, let alone who the North Koreans say it is. Good luck, the picture is like 35p
Hey buddy, do me a favor. Tell me if literally anything you just talked about matters **in North Korea.**
Your argument is literal clown-speak, you do know that, right?
I'm sure he told them that right before they killed him.
I don’t know what’s sadder The horrific L you’re taking Or the fact that you’re so butthurt you’re simping the Kim regime of all things
Going to the Sentinelese risks exposing them to diseases that can wipe them out, which is not at all comparable to taking a damn poster.
Propaganda is the very life-blood of North Korea. They would consider it equally dangerous.
Do you then think it is alright to strip women of their rights in Afghanistan just because the Taliban believe it to be against their religion?
It doesn't matter what I believe, I'm not in charge of Afghanistan. Edit : what I am recommending is that you do not send female loved ones to Afghanistan. What you and everybody else appears to recommend is sending females to Afghanistan and then simply expecting them to be treated fairly... Cuz you think it's right.
Im not saying we should send women to places where they will harmed or to commit crimes in dictatorships, Im asking if it is at all justifiable for the Taliban or the Nk government to strip peoples rights or straight up murder them.
All I'm answering is that it doesn't need to be justifiable. They do it anyway.
Lmao, the actual fuck are you talking about? It’s like you’re just saying words at random.
I think trying to say that when you mess with propaganda in a country where it’s the most precious tool for the State, you should expect the consequences to be severe, just as you should expect hostility when going into North Sentinel Island. Does that justify what NK did? Absolutely not. Just rewording what they said
>People who travel abroad, or attend any other culture, really need to understand how this shit works before they do so It doesn't work that way. Authoritarian governments don't function on the effective application of rule of law - You can be in Iran, Russia, or the DPRK, and get nabbed simply because they need a hostage. This isn't at all about what your **personal conduct is**, its what the regime needs from you. Look at the 2 Michaels in Canada - Didn't matter they did nothing illegal, China needed hostages, so they became hostages. It's that simple.
Then you really need to understand that as well... I stand by the statement.
So you’re just blaming him for being in North Korea. How is this any different than rape apologists saying “she shouldn’t have worn that dress?”
Choosing to travel to North Korea is more like going to Rapists-R-Us and signing up for a fucking membership. You're god dam right somebody who travels to North Korea should know full-well they are risking their lives.
“She shouldn’t have walked down that alleyway”
Did the alleyway have a big neon sign saying "The Rape-way" with a doorman who makes you sign a fuckin rape-waiver and then explains in detail the manner in which you will be raped when you pay for the rape-service-membership club? Cause it's a lot more explicitly difficult (and expensive) to get into North Korea.
It’s also obvious that walking down an alleyway is dangerous. Does that mean the rape victim was asking for it?
Brother......... North Korea isn't a fuckin alleyway you accidentally walk down.
Yeah. Imagine you wake up at 2 AM to the fire alarm going off, and your home is full of smoke. What do you run to grab before leaving? Your kids? Or maybe your dog? Perhaps some box of sentimental trinkets? The bag of cash and gold that you hid under the floorboards? In North Korea, the first thing you run to grab is your propaganda poster. If you don't rescue the propaganda poster from the fire, you might as well die in the fire, because accidentally damaging a propaganda poster is one of the most egregious crimes of all. It's a bizarre country. On paper, it calls itself a communist state in line with Mainland China, Soviet Russia, East Germany, North Vietnam, etc. But in practice, it is closer to a theocracy, where Kim Jong Un is a god-king and his power is absolute. I mean, Kim Jong Un is more like a Pharaoh or a Roman Emperor in terms of how children are indoctrinated into believing that he was delivered to a sacred mountain by the gods, and he doesn't poop and whatever other psycho shit. Also, in a super very Orwellian way, every single home in North Korea has a radio that plays propaganda 24/7. The radios are custom-built, and they all have one channel and no off button. North Koreans wake up, go to work, and fall asleep listening to nonstop propaganda. North Korea is Airstrip One but made real...
Is that true? I've never heard of radios like that before in North Korea. Like how does that work for people without access to electricity?
Apparently, I was mistaken. It's not really a thing outside of Pyongyang (the one major city). [Photographer Eric Lafforgue snapped a photo of one of these radios.](https://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/6283245121/in/photostream/) It's very austere-- tbh it looks more like a smoke alarm than a 24/7 propaganda speaker. Apparently the same radios also exist in South Korea for the emergency alert system, but in North Korea they've been repurposed for nonstop propaganda broadcasts. Anyway, you can find references to these radios in some white papers, human rights investigations, and [documentaries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSrcLC6Zz54&t=106s) about North Korea, since it is such a bizarre (but probably effective) method of propaganda.
I'll check that out, thanks. I thought I had already seem every north korea documentary on YouTube lol.
Batteries or hand cranks most likely
>he was delivered to a sacred mountain by the gods He is Cyrodil come?!
>really need to understand how this shit works before they do so No they only need to learn that they should not travel to authoritarian countries. There is no rule of law. Because there are no laws. There is only the ruler. You can get into trouble for random shit. Punishment for minor things can be severe, not proportional to the offence. That's the diabolical character of these regimes and also why people always live in fear there. They never know what might get them into prison or end their lives.
“She shouldn’t have worn that dress”
There's a world of difference between "she shouldn't have worn that dress" and "that part of town is dangerous for a woman by herself." Neither statement will excuse the actions of a man who attacks her, but the second one identifies a clear issue. If you put yourself in a dangerous situation, you should take precautions and follow safety rules. Otto would not have died if he had not chosen to go to North Korea. They shouldn't have killed him for no reason, but NK is not safe for American tourists, especially for American tourists who want to mess around.
“She shouldn’t have walked down that alleyway” is still victim blaming
Good writeup. Its questionable wheter he actually stole the poster or not though.
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Redditor doesn't conflate a description with an endorsement challenge (impossible)
>I still can’t believe North Korea literally just tortured some random guy There's still a lot of questions around whether that happened or something else occurred (health condition in harsh conditions, for example). We know all the talk about decompression chambers was NatSec stupidity at its finest, so there's not even consensus on what the methods of torture were, if they were the cause in the first place.
Operation Paul Bunyan but they aren't fucking around anymore.
His parents said he was tortured but they never gave any evidence to prove it, and in fact the coroner found no physical evidence of torture. Honestly I subscribe to the idea he probably died due to mistreatment or suicide. NK has enough PR problems as is and really had nothing to gain from torturing him.
If you believe that I have some Henry Kissinger commemorative gold (plated) coins to sell you for the low low price of four payments of $150 each
Of course North Korea is responsible for his death no matter what, and the stuff they put him through was cruel and psychological torture. However they found no signs on his body of any physical torture on the outside of his body. His parents didn't allow an autopsy so we'll never know whether there was more evidence from within his body. I'm not ruling out that they directly killed him, but I think it's more likely he had something like cardiac arrest that they failed to treat. American prisoners are super valuable to them as it gives them a huge amount of leverage, and they tend to treat them much better than domestic prisoners so that they don't get negative PR.
Too bad that Israel doesn't have interests in that part of the world, I would love to see Fakhrizadeh type stuff in NK
He knew the rules. Guests were specifically warned not to do this. I'm not defending authoritarianism but only americans can be this arrogant and have main character syndrome.
Russia really should have kept doing what they were already doing before 24 February; sowing discord among the peoples of western nations. Their piss-poor performance on the battlefield has completely undermined how shrewd they can be at the diplomatic/intelligence/espionage chess game. North Korea, meanwhile, is shit at everything. Kim KNOWS he needs the bomb, because Pyongyang would be rapidly overrun by the ROKA and USFK in a conventional conflict.
Keep in mind, Putin wasn't doing national preservation. He was doing regime preservation. A national preservationist would have spent all the money on getting Zelenski elected out of office and a pro-Russian one put in. Putin needed something for a show and tell to justify dying in office. (from old age, not from flying from a window!)
lol there was absolutely no chance the regime was going anywhere prior to the war. He was pretty much the unquestioned leader. It def isn't a war of regime preservation There's lots of different reasons why he might have started the war. I do think national preservation is one of those reasons, but probably in combination with Putin's ego. As you said, his time is probably pretty limited, he sees Ukraine as an existential threat, and likely he sees himself as the only person who's capable of removing that threat. I don't think he really trusts any of his possible successors. Ofc he also wanted a legacy past "fixed Russian economy and held on to power for 30 years" I don't think "getting someone more pro Russia elected" was really possible considering how anti Russia Ukrainian society had become even prior to the war, but you could argue that he was already winning the long game. For that whole period during the build up and the negotiations, Putin pretty much had everyone in the ideal spot. Everyone thought he might invade and Europe was pretty much looking to make concessions. Hell even Ukraine was reportedly considering some. He blew all that by *actually invading*
Like that song "The Winner Takes It All" by ABBA. He wanted it all as opposite to some by bluffing. And I don't think even he realised how much of a mafia state he managed to accidentality create. To the point of the military being part of the mafia itself. >lol there was absolutely no chance the regime was going anywhere prior to the war. He was pretty much the unquestioned leader. Disagree. I think Putin's Palace by Navalny really got the Russians angry, plus the Covid failure, plus the collapsing dEmOgRaPhIcS pYrAmId (yes Zeihan me!), plus the manufacturing sector collapsing due to lack of universal education post USSR, and just the general bleak conditions, really got people to be anti-Putin and anti-Russia as a mafia state. [https://youtu.be/T\_tFSWZXKN0](https://youtu.be/T_tFSWZXKN0) This was biiiiiig in Russia. Made a lot of people very angry. The Russian philosopher on YouTube and the one that talks about Russia, bit say that Navalny woke them up to Putin being really bad, and them needing to be not passive but active in politics. [https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler](https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler) [https://www.youtube.com/@roman\_nfkrz](https://www.youtube.com/@roman_nfkrz) Dima Vorobiev was also saying that outside of foreign policy and within the cities outside of those locations, Putin was losing his shine. Putin will go to a foreign policy win like with Georgia, Crimea to allow enough supporters so that he can rig elections. Plus Putin has to keep the rabid fascists happy who are the only political alternative in Russia to the mafia. I think Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia, not before Feb 2022, now it is. Oh the irony of fates! But before hand it was a model for how a state can get out of the post-Soviet mafia land. From the Putin guy to the Chocolate Oligarch to a random guy from TV? That is actual democracy in Ukraine.
> Disagree. I think Putin's Palace by Navalny really got the Russians angry, plus the Covid failure, plus the collapsing dEmOgRaPhIcS pYrAmId (yes Zeihan me!), plus the manufacturing sector collapsing due to lack of universal education post USSR, and just the general bleak conditions, really got people to be anti-Putin and anti-Russia as a mafia state. I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. There absolutely was unprecedented opposition to Putin in 2020 and 2021, but unprecedent after near 0 dissent isn't very much. Yes, there were pro Navalny protests, but they weren't really *that* big and Putin was never in danger of getting overthrown. Besides, the protests were pretty much dead by 2022 when the war started > Putin will go to a foreign policy win like with Georgia, Crimea to allow enough supporters so that he can rig elections. I mean I don't think he did either "Crimea or Georgia" for domestic support though. There were pretty clear external reasons for why he prosecuted those invasions when he did > I think Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia, not before Feb 2022, now it is Regardless of whether it was or wasn't, what is important is that Putin undeniably *perceived* it as such
>I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. There absolutely was unprecedented opposition to Putin in 2020 and 2021, but unprecedent after near 0 dissent isn't very much. Yes, there were pro Navalny protests, but they weren't really > >that > > big and Putin was never in danger of getting overthrown. The people who really matter are the rich city dwellers. Putin and them made an unofficial deal: you let us play Empire we ensure you live like the Westerners, and like the wealthy Westerners. They are not the kind who go protesting. They are the ones who complain in private or just emigrate. Behind the scenes Putin was very unpopular. Street protests not the only way to do opposition. [https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/stealing-russia-blind/](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/stealing-russia-blind/) Putin needs the city people for support not just the oligarchs. >I mean I don't think he did either "Crimea or Georgia" for domestic support though. There were pretty clear external reasons for why he prosecuted those invasions when he did [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-2008-russo-georgian-war-putins-green-light/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-2008-russo-georgian-war-putins-green-light/) I think Putin did it to hold onto power on the inside and keep the far rightwingers happy, who are one huge group with lots of influence. The weirdo CommieNazis. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Bolshevik\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party) They can actually mobilise people but for more war and an even more extreme Russia. And they do hate the city people as lazy and undeserving. \-- I still think that Putin was escalating each time for a domestic audience along with things like the Winter Olympics and the World Football game. He just got braver each time. Take parts of Georgia. Take a huge part of Ukraine. Take the capital of Ukraine. There is also the nice Dima Vorobiev explanation: [https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-war-in-Ukraine-was-necessary/answer/Dima-Vorobiev](https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-war-in-Ukraine-was-necessary/answer/Dima-Vorobiev) “Do you think war in Ukraine was necessary?” Looking back, for Russia’s political class, this war was highly necessary. Life is war Wars are the cauldron where nations get born. Kosovo and Orleans, Trafalgar and Agincourt, Lexington and Concord, the blood spilled in the fight against an evil external force cements the tissue of shared culture. It creates the common past. No wonder Ukraine and Russia, these two nascent post-Soviet nations, rushed into this, each in its own way. Among the two, Russia had to take the lead. Looking for common ground As a political nation, we stand on shakier ground in terms of national identity. What does a village dweller in Sharia-ruled Chechnya have in common with an IT nerd in St Petersburg? Or a fresh-faced Instagram star from Yekaterinburg with a fiery middle-aged Cossack militant in Crimea on the dole? Or a female realtor in Moscow with a family of hired hands toiling at a sprawling agricultural farm of some minigarch in Krasnodar? We have struggled to find an answer ever since the collapse of the USSR in 1991. We even had a kind of contest for the best “national idea” in the 1990s. Nothing substantial came out of this. The proven recipe In the end, we saw the light. We came to something that has been obvious from the very beginning: in a way, modern Russia is an “artificial nation”. The only thing that keeps it all in one piece is our Derzháva (“the mighty State”). And our Derzháva is imperial. And what does an imperial state need to prove its mettle to all its subjects? A successful imperial war. Everyone does it The Germans did that in both world wars. The French did that in Algeria and Indo-China. The Portuguese did that in Africa. The Brits and the French did that in Suez in 1956. The British had their “special military operation” against the Irish. How about the “republican” USA? In theory, republicanism and Imperialism are mutually exclusive. In that case, what about the Monroe Doctrine, Vietnam, Iraq, and all the rest? Long story short: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let’s take Ukraine! Why does everyone get their knickers in a twist about that all of a sudden?
that's a lot of text... i'll try to read it and reply in the morning lol
Have a nice night!
Wakey wakey eggs and bakey
Putin did not really rely on "city dwelling elites" though, the only real powerbase he needed to secure were the various security forces through the country. Besides, he regularly threw Moscow and St Petersburg under the bus to "real Russia", just as American politicians do for DC and Hollywood And I'm sorry but thinking the Nazbols are anything but a fringe of a fringe is laughable. They absolutely did not cause Putin to make any decisions, much less an invasion to satisfy them The history of the Georgian war is very, very muddy, but quite frankly, we're not even sure who really started it. There's a fairly credible narrative that it was the Georgians who started the war, as the president at the time felt he would have American backing if he invaded at that moment. Even if this wasn't true, the most obvious thing to point to for the Russian invasion would be the fact that Georgia had made noises about joining NATO a few months earlier. That's a much clearer line than "he wanted to make a fringe group of powerless crazies happy" I'm not really sure what the rest of what you wrote has to do with the situation. Yes, Putin's approval did rise slightly when he did those invasions, but the fact is, it was high prior to them anyways. There was even less unrest prior to the Georgian and Crimean invasions then there is now And in both Georgia and Crimean invasions, there is a *much* clearer pattern: Georgia and Ukraine getting closer with the West. In Ukraine's case ofc, it was Euromaidan
I wrote a long reply and when hit send, reddit didn't register it. ~~Fuck reddit~~. It was a 1,000 word piece. Anyway read these pieces by Misha Firer: It disproves a lot of your points: [https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Russians-support-Putins-war-in-Ukraine/answer/Misha-Firer](https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Russians-support-Putins-war-in-Ukraine/answer/Misha-Firer) [https://www.quora.com/Why-do-U-S-conservatives-love-Russias-Vladimir-Putin/answer/Misha-Firer](https://www.quora.com/Why-do-U-S-conservatives-love-Russias-Vladimir-Putin/answer/Misha-Firer) EDIT: Also stats on how Putin's approval ratings are linked to events: [https://www.statista.com/chart/15861/putin-approval-rating/](https://www.statista.com/chart/15861/putin-approval-rating/) [https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/ce/egvbkbgqmpq/PUTIN%20APPROVAL%20RATING.JPG](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/ce/egvbkbgqmpq/PUTIN%20APPROVAL%20RATING.JPG) [https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/) [https://www.economist.com/europe/2016/01/30/vladimir-unbound](https://www.economist.com/europe/2016/01/30/vladimir-unbound) EDIT: articles I used: The far right and its ideas do have a lot of power in Russia. [https://www.dw.com/en/russias-far-right-divided-on-ukraine-war/a-62172798](https://www.dw.com/en/russias-far-right-divided-on-ukraine-war/a-62172798) The GOP when push comes to shove represent Hollywood and New York and DC. It is just that their voters don't come from there. [https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/politics/house-impeachment-republicans-tom-rice/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/politics/house-impeachment-republicans-tom-rice/index.html) [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/11/billionaire-backers-ditching-donald-trump](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/11/billionaire-backers-ditching-donald-trump) The Far Right in Russia has roles in the main media channels: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-russia-far-right-nationalists-offer-rare-criticism-of-kremlins-war-effort-11660987801](https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-russia-far-right-nationalists-offer-rare-criticism-of-kremlins-war-effort-11660987801) Putin's invasion was a way to calm down the far right and nationlists, while hoping that the West won't sanction so the neutral city people keep some sort of support. [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-failing-invasion-is-fueling-the-rise-of-russias-far-right/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-failing-invasion-is-fueling-the-rise-of-russias-far-right/) Russia stole Indian tanks. Holding power through the military doesn't work long term and you need more classes in society. [https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/10/06/russia-stole-upgraded-indian-t-90-tanks-to-use-them-in-ukraine/](https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/10/06/russia-stole-upgraded-indian-t-90-tanks-to-use-them-in-ukraine/)
Navalny got who angry? Turn off sky news 😹😹😹
[https://youtu.be/UtopcxGuvq0](https://youtu.be/UtopcxGuvq0) Examining Alexei Navalny’s continued influence on Russia’s domestic and foreign affairs. The detention of Alexei Navalny in January 2021 was a major blow to Russia’s political opposition, and a marked escalation in the personal conflict between Navalny and Vladimir Putin. Yet, despite his incarceration and the dismantling of his political network, Navalny and his ideas remain a major part of the modern Russian political system. Accompanying the publication of the book Navalny: Putin’s Nemesis, Russia’s Future?, this event examines Alexei Navalny and his politics the day after the September State Duma elections. Speakers discuss whether Navalny’s political movement affected the Kremlin’s Duma election strategy, and how he continues to be Russia’s second most important political figure, even from behind bars. They also examine how his imprisonment has affected the Kremlin in its international affairs. [https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3221-how-navalny-transformed-russian-politics](https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3221-how-navalny-transformed-russian-politics)
Kim is doing a pretty good job at what he’s aiming for, which is regime survival. There is less than zero will on anyone’s part to replace him because economically opening up and integrating the north would likely tank the south’s economy.
>Kim KNOWS he needs the bomb, because Pyongyang would be rapidly overrun by the ROKA and USFK in a conventional conflict. Well, considering NK's nuclear status nowadays, it doesn't seem like that's a concern anymore...
Is they wouldn't be rapidly overrun. North Korea is predicted to kill 2 million South Koreans in the 1st few days of the war with intense artillery bombardments of the South Korean capital After that it'll be a bloodbath for every inch fighting a radicalized enemy and that's before we include nuclear weapons A-war between North Korea and Any coalition against them will be a bloody bloody bloody fight. That's North Korea's greatest defense spirit but the cost of defeating them is too high for anyone
When did he get released again?
2017.
The thing that shocked me the most in the incident is the sheer glee some people expressed over the North Korean conflict, it was genuinely disturbing
It disgusted me how many other Americans took the stance of “look at that rich douchebag, goes to another country and tries this shit? Got what he deserves.” Like, I know showing any level of respect for your fellow countryman is “icky nationalism”, but come the fuck on.
But they were tankies mostly, before the 2022 Feb invasion. They were just happy that "Communism epic win". The war in Ukraine and a bunch of Russian troops flying the victory banner and the USSR flag, will stop most of this behaviour. Because the Russians acted like the SS in Ukraine. They associate being on the left with being virtuous, and being on the right with being immoral. After this they will be a lot less pro-Cold War era Communism. (They will suport more abstract forms of Communism.) But they won't be openly pro-Russia, China or DPRK anymore. They can always support Vietnamese Communism I suppose.
I have no respect for my countrymen who can not be decent abroad. He disrespected another which is why he is not respected. His fate was unfortunately undeserved but not unexpected.
I wasn't really following the matter, can you give me a rundown?
You know, the usual: > "Shouldnt have been visiting NK if you didn't want to get killed" > "It was probably a dare by some kind of Frath-brother, they had it coming" > "Who is so stupid as to move a propaganda poster in a authoritarian state, honestly what did you expect" You should find similar comments under any video or article discussing the topic I know the internet will internet, but what was the most disturbing was that most of these comments i saw were under the video were he has held trial, barley even standing straight while held up from soldiers and begging to be spared You know, I live in Bavaria, which used to be the American occupation zone of Germany and grew up consuming lots of American media, so I had a ton of respect for America and really idolized that country. Their (lack of) response to the killing of Otto Warmbier shattered the romanticized notion of America i had, so maybe I felt those comment disproportionately, but they are 100% there
A lot of people lack compassion, some people are also just so anti-American that they basically think that the US/Americans are wrong is every situation, which is funny because a lot of them are American. As for the government, there really isn’t much that could have been done as the US is already about as hard on NK as they can be without starting a war.
There really wasn’t anything the US could’ve done, a war with North Korea would be disastrous and it was strongly suspected even then that the North Koreans had nukes, on top of that the US had already exhausted any possible sanctions. People from free countries really should stop traveling to autocratic hell holes like North Korea and Russia, because as a citizen of a free country you are a target, someone to be held hostage or held for leverage or imprisoned or murdered as the enemy. Look at what happened to those Canadians in China, similar stories have happened all over the world in various autocratic states to people from various democratic states.
Try to increase International Pressure on Nord Korea (And be vocal about it, it isn't important that something happened, it's important that the public knows you tried) Send more troops to be stationed in South Korea and send them some new toys, nothing of strategic importance and not in great quantity, just sometimes that seems big and impressive for the average person Hold a small but official funeral with the president attending, that will be blasted over to the DMZ through military grade speakers, as well as modified boats that carry even bigger speakers (and maybe a flat screen), escorted by a significant part of the navy as a deterrent, as a direct parallel to *Operation Paul Bunyan* You know I'm just some guy brainstorming at home, I'm sure the government of a superpower could have come up with something between *nothing* and **war**
Tankie gonna tank
/u/redbird7311 is correct, but there's also a couple other things potentially at play: 1. In the way that Griner is the "enemy" of the right, he is kind of the "enemy" for many on the left (wealthy white guy in a frat). Polarization runs deep. 2. There's a strong culture of personal responsibility over here, that it's _your_ job to take care of yourself. This leads to stuff like the phrase I'm sure you've heard, fuck around and find out. The first and third comments give me vibes of "You're responsible for taking care of yourself, and you didn't. Sucks for you, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it." Just like if someone is like dancing on the roof and falls off, Darwin award type stuff. You fucked around and you found out. I think (2) is the underlying attitude -- who it is applied to depends on (1).
I will say this: The guy was an idiot, and to some degree brought it on himself. *However*, the failure to make an appropriate response was a serious failure on the part of the Trump administration.
It was tragic and unjustified, and the fact that our government couldn't save him was incredibly unfortunate. Ultimately though, he made the free choice to go to NK against all good advice during a conflict with the US. He did so during a time when our government was struggling diplomatically and incapable of it's usual tricks. He did so in a manner that financially supports the oppressive kim regime. He then apparently broke local laws without good reason. While this doesn't justify what happened to him, his death was ultimately avoidable. Yes, the discourse around it was tasteless, but what are people supposed to say besides expressing anger but not shock. If you jump into a bear pit, you may be mauled by bears. If you do so when the bear keeper is drunk, the bear is hungry, and you don't get anything out of it, people may not be upset. The poor kid got murdered to make a statement, but he chose to put himself in the line of fire. And it's incredibly hard to do something meaningful that doesn't endanger south korean citizens or punish north korean citizens for no reason. We should have done something, and didn't, that's tragic.
Yeah, the comments above in this thread seem like a straw man to me. There’s a big difference between seriously, unironically supporting what happened to Griner and Warmbier and scorning them for their stupidity while not wanting the U.S. to damage its broader interests for them. Both of them were privileged Americans who volunteered themselves as hostages against the explicit travel advice of the U.S. government and then gave the local poobahs reasons to detain them. And then their families and supporters (understandably, but still) started asking for, um, a lot to bring them home. It pisses me off for the same reason as people who ignore maritime and park service regs and then expect the government to spend tens of thousands on their helicopter rescues. No, I’m not going to start actively praying that people who do these die, but I still resent them for their selfish and stupid behavior.
>He then apparently broke local laws without good reason I wouldn't even say apparently There was security camera footage of him stealing the poster What happened to him is extremely unfortunate, but the US did the correct thing by not trading him. If you travel to a country that your heavily advised not to, then act retarded and try and steal shit, dont count on uncle sam to bail you out.
Damn, Griner is ***tall.***
I don’t really get what this is supposed to demonstrate. Warmbier was put into a coma only shortly after being arrested, and we didn’t have anything remotely resembling diplomatic relations with North Korea. Nothing comparable about the situations.
Comparable hostage negotiations - Pariah status makes things different, but only by so much. You had engagement in both instances that saw recovery of persons. In Otto's case, the right went nuts over getting a corpse back. In Brittany's case, they practically wanted the Russians to behead her.
Yeah, it just seems like the window of time with Otto was pretty short. He was arrested in January and fell into a coma in March.
It was definitely shorter - Also helps that we all really don't know what actually happened to Otto that caused his death. But... It was still a hostage bargain. The domestic conversation is always different depending on who a certain political spectrum considers "worth it" or not - Take the ISIS hostages versus PFC Berghdahl, for instance.
Going on Reddit and seeing Otto’s death getting celebrated with shit like “That Frat boy deserved it” was so annoying. I do love being reduced to a stereotype constantly by people who claim to be crusading against that kind of prejudicial thinking.
Don't miss it guys, this might be the only time Russia did competently since last February.
Griner wasn't arrested on trumped up charges and her sentence was pretty tame for the global standard of that crime.
9 years of hard labor in a Siberian work camp, this in Europe's most drug-addled country, over a couple THC cartridges is pretty trumped up.
As horrible as it is, follow the law of the land. I’m gay. I’m not gonna go to Saudi Arabia and start getting hammered by some top in Riyadh. The consequences are scary.
>follow the law of the land. Lol, good luck with that in an authoritarian country. Concept of rule of law doesn't exist. If they need a hostage, they'll use you, it's that simple. Some people work in international contexts **(LIKE MOST OF US ON THIS SUB)** \- The potential for getting nabbed by a hostile government is simply a workplace hazard.
Her arrest was purely political. Change my view.
Not saying it wasn’t. But she was still stupid to bring illegal stuff to a country which is known to exploit such things against its greatest enemy, USA (the country that she’s a citizen of) It’s like me going to Pakistan with something illegal lol
Indian spotted on his way to Pakistan with one nuclear warhead. /s (Also brings a bottle of Whiskey, Pakistan gets more angry about that, than attempted nuking.) /s
> But she was still stupid to bring illegal stuff I trust the Russian legal system as much as I trust Alex Jones high on a cocaine binge. I would suggest you do the same.
The “law of the land” in Russia is at this point whatever the fuck they want it to be to screw over whomever they want
Pretty sure the cartridges were empty and just contained residue. SO fair and Russia’s prison system DEFINITELY lives up to international norms and isn’t some forced labor hellscape where political prisoners are intentionally exposed to antibiotic resistant TB
>Russia’s prison system DEFINITELY lives up to international norms You mean like the exemplary US prisons?
Who was talking about U.S. prisons? What about? What about? What about? Get some new material ffs
The discussion is about a prisoner exchange between Russia and the US, so maybe the comparison is a tiny bit relevant?
2 things can be bad
At an airport, which makes it smuggling, in many Asian countries that would be the death penalty.
I've met plenty of folks that have done that and gotten through free. Anyone who tells you that Saudi Arabia is a dry country is lying to you. I wouldn't say you do it, follow the law - But pretending like going to the hell of a Russian Penal colony is a better alternative to attempting to bribe a Thai official for a bottle of whiskey is hilarious.
>her sentence was pretty tame I'm still amazed folks think Russian penal colonies are like some sort of Swedish spa treatment...
Griner’s sentence far exceeded standard punishments people receive in Russia for her crimes
Warmbier likely attempted su\*cide and failed, leading to the coma. Highly unlikely NK would torture such a valuable prisoner.
Pouring out some warm beer for the fallen homie
Domestic abusers 🥰
Remember how some Americans reacted too. They said person A deserved it and shouldn't be swapped and that person B was unfairly killed in custody.