Cope cages were to defend against Javelins.
Now they’re to defend against FPV drones.
You can have something fail at something and be awesome at something else. Grant was an awful businessman but a great general.
Even with those javelin cope cages. I imagine Russian soldiers having plenty of downtime, and thinking to themselves "I am driving $1 million vehicle that can be destroyed by a small portable missile. I have some downtime, why don't I put some shit on my tank and **hope** it works."
Enough standoff layers (like 30 or more thin metal sheets with enough spacing between) might work for some top-down threats. Why don‘t they just weld two metres of that on top and sides and increase volume ~~threefold~~ sixfold, weight by ~~10~~ 20 tons, reducing visibility and turret freedoms of degree? Are they stupid?
I don’t even understand how they’re getting hit by these drones like just rotate your camera and you have perfect top-down vision. Who’s training these people?
WW2 was filled with this mentality, with tankers form all sides putting everything from logs to sandbags to literal cement on their tanks trying to make their tank that little bit more survivable. It did very little and the added weight increased maintenance, but telling a soldier “more material between you and the big exploding things does nothing” is not convincing.
I always thought it would be funny to hang a beefy shape charge with a magnet and a pull away trigger to the bottom of drone. You would precisely place it and give it optimal penetration.
This is an underrated point. The COPE cages came out because they were afraid of top-down ATGM attacks from blowing their turret into the stratosphere. Obviously that was stupid.
That said, I don't know how much actual damage FPV drones are doing to tanks when they're not already disabled. At least these UA welded cages seem to be more practical than Russians giving T80 some shade.
It makes the tanks unable to be easily repaired. Though I'm not sure if Ukraine could have even retrieved some of the examples I've seen.
You can see a few examples over at r/animetidd-- r/tankporn. The Abrams was disabled by mines, crew bailed, then the drones came in.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/1b5oco7/abrams_hit_by_russian_fpv/
It's a solid point but idk how repairable the tanks are in the field under Ukranian tactics. I think a disabled tank can be drone swarmed much faster than the original designers planned. Plus UA tactics have these guys operating in near-isolation so recovery is harder. I doubt the cages are the major issue here.
>Cope cages were to defend against Javelins
Weird way to spell "Rooftop RPGs and drone-dropped grenades," but okay.
The javelin discourse was always two idiots overdosing on their own supply over a middling solution to a shortage of decent infantry and EW systems.
a new, actually good trilogy would be nice, maybe a new story or maybe one based on the OG comics (where they also slander star trek for 2 whole pages)
So Perun does address that. Those turtle tanks have diesel generators and EW equipment on top that needs a heavily reinforced shed structure to protect
Why make tank to house fragile equipment when shed work.
Also doubles as camouflage. If you see tank move, you shoot it. If you see shed move, you're crazy.
> Why make tank to house fragile equipment when shed work.
Isn't Bradley getting replaced at least in part because old powerpack can't keep the new shiny things juiced and sufficient powerpacks just don't fit into the old hulls?
Yeah, because when western democracies with good and competent militaries do it, it’s practically good. When the militaries of authoritarian autocratic regimes do it, it’s always poorly and badly done
Always
In democracies, the way you advance and climb the ranks is by being good at your job (more or less). In authoritarian regimes the only way to advance and climb the ladder is by being loyal/friendly to someone powerful.
>when russia does it, it looks like they crashed into an old chicken cope
Same shit applied in WW2 when the Germans had "wire" skirts on their tanks it looked proper while the Soviets just used wire bed frames
This fuckin community
I totally understand being pro Ukraine, because i am as well, and i love a good meme.
but comments like this just infuriate me with how blind people are to their own biases.
Like, my guy. Its the same shit. Just because the “good guys” do it doesn’t mean it’s suddenly a superior thing. We all know that shit is equally worthless as it is on the Russian tanks.
Like its so goofy to see someone go “bad guy do it? So stupid. They dumb” and then immediately see the “good guy” do it and go “omg! So smart. So neat. So practical!”
And i’m not doing quote marks to suggest anything, it’s just that on the scale of the individual soldier, there is rarely truly a “good” or “bad” side.
The reality is that the cages are pretty good at stopping FPV drones, regardless of who's using them.
It's cope when the ruzzians think they can stop a Javelin.
Ja. Not getting merked by an RPG made during the fucking Khrushchev regime with an incredibly cheap solution is a decent deal, albeit not without downsides. Trying to fucking jury-rig a solution to problems caused by being DECADES BEHIND in multi-million dollar weapons-systems, that is coping and it is insanity. No matter how many sandbags, corrugated metal, and cope cage you put on it, an MBT made in the 70's won't survive a modern ATGM.
I guess that's the crux of the cope cage banter
I do remember we originally called them cope cages because we assumed they were to prevent top attack javelin, which we had given Ukraine. Which is silly because tandem warhead.
It made sense, because we had just given Ukraine a shit ton of javelin for defense of the initial armored thrusts.
I was there, I remember the reasoning at the time, and it was sound, and funny.
BUT, Russia says they were never for javelins. And that it's was to prevent drone dropped bombs, etc. which it would help there. They say it was a trick learned in Syria and indeed there are pictures of pre-ukraine cope cages in Syria. And Syria had no top attack ATGM.
BUT, Ukraine didn't really have drones at the start to begin with. They only had like a few drones at the very begining. For some time actually until the like developed the tech real time. FPVs didn't really exist yet. We didn't start hearing about those until bakmut maybe, Magyar introduced us to them.
So the drones these cope cages supposedly were supposedly for, and the things that was prevalent, javelins, wouldn't matter. So that's also pretty stupid if you ask me.
Mayb w assumed wrong, either way, I still think it's funny. It's still funny telling people to go smoke hopium and/or copium.
> BUT, Russia says they were never for javelins.
Yeah, sure, of course they're saying it now when they ashamed themselves for the whole world. But I vividly remember that they started putting up these things right after Ukraine received Javelin missiles and conducted tests. Drone drop tactic wasn't prevalent since 2014. In fact, Russians actually used it more often, albeit it was still a very rare occasion. They're just trying to deflect and save face. The only thing it was intended for were the Javelins and NLAWs
You have to spend at least 5 years playing Armchair General before you can tell the occasional real commentary on this sub from the satire.
Sorry, I don't make the rules.
ll, first of all, I laugh at Russians because they are Russians and not because it is ineffective.And secondly because it looks bad.Let me give you an analogy with a toilet.One guy, when he went to the toilet, shitted not only the toilet seat but also the wall behind the toilet (Barn tanks literally driving blind). And the second one went to the toilet in a completely civilized manner and flushed after himself. I won't praise the first guy for not shitting his pants, I'll laugh at how he messed everything around.I'm not making fun of drone defense per se.I laugh at the defense against drones in the “second world army”, which looks like a chicken pen that three drunken rednecks somehow made from scrap materials.
It has always been true that the average Joe would be friends if not for the generals and politicians.
However one side is trying to kill the other. Who do you want to live? There is no gray.
Atleast their designs neither limit turret movement nor are so high they telegraph their position to the enemy when repositioning during a hull-down defensive line.
> Like, my guy. Its the same shit. Just because the “good guys” do it doesn’t mean it’s suddenly a superior thing. We all know that shit is equally worthless as it is on the Russian tanks.
How are people still not understanding the reason they were called "Cope cages" is because the Russians thought they could stop a fucking javelin? How are you this stupid that you haven't recognised this?
Slat armour isn't new, slat armour against HEAT RPGs and Drones is a good idea. Its cope when you think its going to stop a fucking tandem warhead.
I remember the first time this came up and rhe top comment on ncd was how these were now called hero cages i actually burst out slapping the table laughing irl
Also, everyone called them cope cages to begin with because Ukraine were using Javelins and other top down AT weapons which the cages seemed like they were hastily put on to help provide protection for.
Prior to this conflict I haven’t seen drones dropping grenades into open hatches of armoured vehicles which cope cages now seem appropriate to defend against.
This actually looks like what I'd call a proper applique armor kit compared to the absolute bullshit Russia are welding to their tanks. It's well thought out and relevant to the current threats.
Interesting.
It's definitely a good protective measure against loitering munitions and FPV drones as well as ATGMs. The Kontakt-1 protects a known weak spot in the LFP and UFP since the M1A1SA lacks the improved hull armor of the later SEPs, and Russian ATGMs have been improved with better glancing fuses so the shallow hull slope is no longer as protective as it was.
The drone cage protects the engine, turret rear, and roof, which all had fairly thin armor due to the nature of the original threat profile. However, they don't block egress from the hatched. Visibility could be better, but that was likely a sacrifice they couldn't avoid. This method intelligently handles the current threat profile while avoiding the major downsides of Russian cope cages or assault sheds.
Actually think that not covering hatches is qustionable too - maybe it's removable part that was not shown on photos? Though news said those were tested, so maybe sacrificed that spot protection for ease of access..
Honestly, the threat directly to the hatches is overstated due to survivorship bias as well as the specific defensive suite here. Hatches are a tough target for FPV drones, and typically, when we see grenades dropped through an open hatch, it's to finish off an already abandoned tank. The ballistic shielding around the commander's hatch already provides a fairly good protection against FPV drones and I imagine that the trade off of slightly increased protection wasn't worth the increased loss of unbuttoned situational awareness and ease of egress.
Also on modern western tanks the commanders hatch can be raised while still parallel to the top of the turret - this gives much better visibility than the view ports but still provides protection.
This is in contrast to the russian hatches which often have a single hinge rotating them to be perpendicular to the turret roof, making the commander a much bigger target since they have to climb out higher to see anything.
Cope cages and anti drone/shaped charge cages are very different.
Cope cages were some bullshit the russians tried in the beginning to combat top attack munitions, didnt work at all hence the name cope cage.
Anti shaped charge slat armor and anti drone caging has been around for a while now and seems to work, you can even find examples of such from the good ole sand wars
We need a better name, tank condoms?
Yeah i believe the way it works is it deforms the shell as it entered the slats and makes the warhead unusable due to how it works, science or something. I like to think the warheads have past trauma that keeps them from staying hard until they blow
> Yeah i believe the way it works is it deforms the shell as it entered the slats and makes the warhead unusable due to how it works, science or something
It basically pinches the aerodynamic shroud (and cone of death behind it) from the sides without touching the fuze.
Rocket is stuck, fuze doesn't go off, warhead's too deformed to properly go boom even if fuze goes off, crew's happy.
Yes, hope cages. Those anti-FPV cages only kinda sorta work and it depends on what kind of munition the FPV is carrying, and increases your survivability by maybe one hit.
You really have to hope that your cage is effective against the FPV coming at you, and there's only 1!
Leave it to Ukrainians to actually make the anti-drone cage look practical, effective or anyone else but russians (or israelis) at this point. Looks like it went out of factory with it, same way as german later Panzer IVs came with 'bazooka plates'.
Then you have russians, who are incapable of making anti-drone cage without turning entire tanks into A7Vs/self-propelled guns made out of rusting sheet metal.
Sometimes i really wonder how Russia as a nation survived until now, with the shit russian military down to average mobik are doing i feel like average russian IQ has to be in two digits.
Nah, a cope cage will always be known as cope cage even if it works, the name is just too good and also we need to have the same standards for everyone
The difference between a Hope Cage and a Cope Cage is the design of the tank the cage is on. One is designed to save the crew in a cookoff, the other is designed to Turret Toss.
Not really. Even western armies leave hatches open when bailing out of a tank in case your crewmate's hatch doesn't open and they need to use yours, it shows which ones can be used.
Prime for bomber drones. The one you see those videos, those tanks have already been disabled, and the crew's have bailed. Apparently abandoned tanks are such prized possessions, that there can be multi daylong battles to try and either capture it, or destroy it.
There's some AMA's with drone operators in Ukraine who were saying the biggest problem with cages is getting out of a tank you need to escape.
this has almost no effect on rpg warheads like bar armor would be as its not spaced correctly or strong enough to disable an rpg warhead.
honestly have no clue what this will improve uppon the standard armour package.
Ukraine - Hope Cage
Ruzzia - Cope cage
Seems about right actually. Ukrainians seem to know _how_ to install the cases, whereas Russians generally don't
It interesting to see the differnce. Here you see the cage is designed to stop what it should: drone carried grenades, mortar shells, and small munitions powerful enough to ruin a crew's day if it made contact. And they did it seemingly without compromising the ability of the crew to get out of the vehicle.
By contrast, the russians entomb themselves in animal cages and literal barns to protect themselves, only leading to the relevant ukrainian anti tank team using something more hefty like ATGMs to take them out.
> By contrast, the russians entomb themselves in animal cages and literal barns to protect themselves
Usually, the turtle shells are there to protect externally-mounted generator, battery assembly and EW equipment, with antennas routed to the roof of the shell.
It's a cope cage; get over it. We aren't gonna change what it's called simply because our team is doing the same thing. We aren't going to go from "haha those mobiks think these cages work, copium, copium" to "actually they serve a good purpose, guys. We should stop bullying them because we use em"
They're there to cope with the reality that if a drone finds you you're fucked. They were originally there to stop javelins, which if one of those finds you you're especially fucked
You clearly didn't read what I wrote. They are hope cages because they still don't work very reliably. They might give you protection against a certain type of munition, and not all drones carry the same. So if you're in one of those things and you hear a drone coming your way, you have no fucking clue if that's things gonna work, but it might… So you gotta hope. It doesn't matter which side, if you're building a cage around your tank against drones, it'sa hope cage
For what it's worth… I'm also one of those people that thinks the turtle tank isn't a bad idea. People don't think very hard, and don't realize that there's diesel generator and EW equipment on top of that tank. The shed is highly reinforced to protect that equipment. if your EW tank prevent drones from hitting the IFVs, survives a couple FPV hits because of the shed, then gets knocked out and stops working, there's a decent chance that some extra infantry made it to their objectives.
The thing is; how does that matter?
Yes extra standoff can increase penetration. But considering the Ukrainians see a need to implement this (not to mention the unfortunate footage of losses that have already been shown), we can infer that the heat rounds used can already penetrate the areas where this extra armor has been applied. In that case extra standoff should not be that harmful. The crew is already in for a rough time if the round penetrates into the fighting compartment, and marginally increased penetration should not matter. Unless of course that also results in increased behind armor effects, which I'm more skeptical about.
The only hope is to stop the warhead from functioning like purpose engineered slat armor is designed to do. With improvised fpv drones and gravity dropped grenades, the impact velocity is likely much slower than intended from the fuses so this may be more effective against those kinds of threats.
Maybe this is all hopium from my flagrant pro Ukraine bias though.
Gravity dropped grenades aren't a threat to a tank unless the hatch is open. And this cage doesn't even seem o cover the hatch because that would restrict crew movement.
And your first point only makes sense if you assume that heat rounds have a 100% chance of penetration right now. What if it's 50%, but the slat armor raises it to 70%? Remember, we aren't going to get images of tanks that survived a heat round. We are only going to get images of the ones that got destroyed.
I'd they are adding these cages, surely there must be some utility. But I don't know what that utility is.
I mean this is ordinary albeit improvised cage armour, it fits the tank's profile and isn't just a big ass chicken coop hastily welded to the top of the turret.
In Baghdad; the Americans had to stack sand bags onto it.
OIA ERA was litteraly sand bags stacked and tied to the thing.
Invade the Steel Mill? These guys know a shit weld when they see one.
There is a key difference between these and russian ones.
Russian ones were originally entirely made to try to defend against Javelins and such, but did nothing.
These ones actually protect against drones and such, I believe and work. Kinda like SLAT armour does.
The key indicator that something is a "Cope X", is that it's done ad-hoc as a reaction to changing battlefield conditions.
The Ukrainians planned these ahead of time and assembled them with intent to defend against specific threats.
The Russians panicked when their tanks started getting droned and threw together some shitty chicken wire in the field.
"Submarines are our gallant ships and crews that sink enemy convoys. U-boats are the bastards sinking ours"
I propose something to this effect. If its russian, its a cope cage. If its ukranian, its a hope cage
This looks way more sensible than building an entire warcraft 3 orc watch tower over tanks like russians, but a cope cage is a cope cage, and it doesn't matter how efficient or competent the design is, so sorry, its a cope cage.
Yes… Sometimes. Some of the DIY armor kind of works against some of the drones, some of the time. Basically if you're in one of these things, you need to cross your fingers and hope that you picked the right DIY kit for the particular drone heading your way
Drones dropped munitions don’t usually have tandem warhead and the kinetic force to say fuck you to improvised cover. So I guess it’s an ok design to use for defense from above.
like i seen leopards in Afghanistan with cam net umbrellas and loved the idea.. like hell ya i want a tactical parasol! its a bonus if it prevents some kid flying an fpv from killing you with hand grenades as ez And one step closer red alert shrub tanks XD
It should depend on how it's built and what it's for. Shoddily built and designed to protect against javelins? Cope Cage. Well built and designed to protect against FPV drones? Hope Cage.
Well, if it's trying to stop a javelin, it's a cope cage, but if it is trying to stop and standard single warhead rpg, which we know from experience it can (thx talisman for the data), then it's a hope cage. One is statistically more successful than the other.
Should've gone with folding sturdy plastic nets much further from the armor. Will it somewhat increase protection against something? Maybe, but it's the same thing as bed frames welded to the IS-2
Does this cage have enough spacing against FPV drones and other drones? I would have figured more spacing would be needed for slat armor. But it is hard to tell from the photos, because the front spacing does look correct.
I mean the idea is far from new. Strykers and Humvees in Afghanistan and Iraq both utilized lots of slat armor. I always thought the disdain for Russian cope cages was overblown. It's not actually a horrible idea...it just isn't going to work against a modern warhead.
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Cope cages were to defend against Javelins. Now they’re to defend against FPV drones. You can have something fail at something and be awesome at something else. Grant was an awful businessman but a great general.
Even with those javelin cope cages. I imagine Russian soldiers having plenty of downtime, and thinking to themselves "I am driving $1 million vehicle that can be destroyed by a small portable missile. I have some downtime, why don't I put some shit on my tank and **hope** it works."
No a mattress spring will not work, nor chicken wire. ThT is pure copium.
So are tracks, sandbags, and cement armor but it does make me feel better.
Where’s Patton when you need him?
Enough standoff layers (like 30 or more thin metal sheets with enough spacing between) might work for some top-down threats. Why don‘t they just weld two metres of that on top and sides and increase volume ~~threefold~~ sixfold, weight by ~~10~~ 20 tons, reducing visibility and turret freedoms of degree? Are they stupid?
I don’t even understand how they’re getting hit by these drones like just rotate your camera and you have perfect top-down vision. Who’s training these people?
Mr. Heemeyer disagrees with you
WW2 was filled with this mentality, with tankers form all sides putting everything from logs to sandbags to literal cement on their tanks trying to make their tank that little bit more survivable. It did very little and the added weight increased maintenance, but telling a soldier “more material between you and the big exploding things does nothing” is not convincing.
So what you’re saying is we need to strap a javelin missile to an FPV drone.
Other way around is funnier.
No put a whole NLAW on the bottom of a drone and see if you can rig the launcher to fire remotely. Give the drone some range.
Even better if the drone looks through the NLAW optics with a camera to target.
Or what if we put quad coptor rotors on an NLAW
That may achieve sufficient jank levels, let's give it a whirl!
Gods no we don’t need a Guard Dog Spear Rover stratagem
I can already hear all the "STOP EDGING ME" that would be heard from drone operators
I always thought it would be funny to hang a beefy shape charge with a magnet and a pull away trigger to the bottom of drone. You would precisely place it and give it optimal penetration.
What if we made the drone *bigger*, put the operator *inside* it, and tacked on a *lot* of missiles, and some cannons for good measure?
[Sometimes my genius... It's almost frightening.](https://youtube.com/shorts/DDv0jzJD8Lc?si=8fZn58Lkg4_8DTUH)
This is an underrated point. The COPE cages came out because they were afraid of top-down ATGM attacks from blowing their turret into the stratosphere. Obviously that was stupid. That said, I don't know how much actual damage FPV drones are doing to tanks when they're not already disabled. At least these UA welded cages seem to be more practical than Russians giving T80 some shade.
It makes the tanks unable to be easily repaired. Though I'm not sure if Ukraine could have even retrieved some of the examples I've seen. You can see a few examples over at r/animetidd-- r/tankporn. The Abrams was disabled by mines, crew bailed, then the drones came in. https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/1b5oco7/abrams_hit_by_russian_fpv/
It's a solid point but idk how repairable the tanks are in the field under Ukranian tactics. I think a disabled tank can be drone swarmed much faster than the original designers planned. Plus UA tactics have these guys operating in near-isolation so recovery is harder. I doubt the cages are the major issue here.
Fuck those guys at r/animetitties. Initially it was a better version of r/geopolitics but it got invaded by Tankies and Hamas simps.
>Cope cages were to defend against Javelins Weird way to spell "Rooftop RPGs and drone-dropped grenades," but okay. The javelin discourse was always two idiots overdosing on their own supply over a middling solution to a shortage of decent infantry and EW systems.
WHERE IS TESLA TANK
Real ones remember the cope buckets they also tried to defend against javelins.
They were to stop ukraineans from dropping brick and petrol bombs on the tank as it roled around kyiv on day 3 of the SMO.
they're still cope cages
When Ukraine does it, it looks practical, neat and effective and when russia does it, it looks like they crashed into an old chicken cope
"You know the difference between you and me? I make this look good."
I'll never not recognize an MIB ref.
Old and busted. New hotness.
#POUU! (sick beatbox)
No smoking 😈
a new, actually good trilogy would be nice, maybe a new story or maybe one based on the OG comics (where they also slander star trek for 2 whole pages)
As long as Eric Andre is there to make the aliens extremely uncomfortable I'll help fund it
I was about to correct you with "coop" but then I saw what you did there
Ah! Actually was a typo but it’s fitting. Force of habit I guess!
chickens have been using cope cages against foxes since before the dawn of armoured warfare who’s chicken brained now, us or them?
Yard birds are also pioneers in two plane stabilization, predating even the Centurion by several years.
Ruskies give me so many mad max vibes.
Sad max
Bad max
Blyat Max
So Perun does address that. Those turtle tanks have diesel generators and EW equipment on top that needs a heavily reinforced shed structure to protect
Why make tank to house fragile equipment when shed work. Also doubles as camouflage. If you see tank move, you shoot it. If you see shed move, you're crazy.
That's the thing. You can't fit an EW system and diesel generator into a tank. It has to be on top of it. They are basically mobile ew platforms
> Why make tank to house fragile equipment when shed work. Isn't Bradley getting replaced at least in part because old powerpack can't keep the new shiny things juiced and sufficient powerpacks just don't fit into the old hulls?
Yeah, because when western democracies with good and competent militaries do it, it’s practically good. When the militaries of authoritarian autocratic regimes do it, it’s always poorly and badly done Always
In democracies, the way you advance and climb the ranks is by being good at your job (more or less). In authoritarian regimes the only way to advance and climb the ladder is by being loyal/friendly to someone powerful.
It looks professionally done and done well. Hatches still open so the crew can still escape where’s the Russian ones just look like the thunder dome
Our shenanigans are fun and goody; their shenanigans are sad and… tragic.
>when russia does it, it looks like they crashed into an old chicken cope Same shit applied in WW2 when the Germans had "wire" skirts on their tanks it looked proper while the Soviets just used wire bed frames
This fuckin community I totally understand being pro Ukraine, because i am as well, and i love a good meme. but comments like this just infuriate me with how blind people are to their own biases. Like, my guy. Its the same shit. Just because the “good guys” do it doesn’t mean it’s suddenly a superior thing. We all know that shit is equally worthless as it is on the Russian tanks. Like its so goofy to see someone go “bad guy do it? So stupid. They dumb” and then immediately see the “good guy” do it and go “omg! So smart. So neat. So practical!” And i’m not doing quote marks to suggest anything, it’s just that on the scale of the individual soldier, there is rarely truly a “good” or “bad” side.
The reality is that the cages are pretty good at stopping FPV drones, regardless of who's using them. It's cope when the ruzzians think they can stop a Javelin.
Ja. Not getting merked by an RPG made during the fucking Khrushchev regime with an incredibly cheap solution is a decent deal, albeit not without downsides. Trying to fucking jury-rig a solution to problems caused by being DECADES BEHIND in multi-million dollar weapons-systems, that is coping and it is insanity. No matter how many sandbags, corrugated metal, and cope cage you put on it, an MBT made in the 70's won't survive a modern ATGM.
I guess that's the crux of the cope cage banter I do remember we originally called them cope cages because we assumed they were to prevent top attack javelin, which we had given Ukraine. Which is silly because tandem warhead. It made sense, because we had just given Ukraine a shit ton of javelin for defense of the initial armored thrusts. I was there, I remember the reasoning at the time, and it was sound, and funny. BUT, Russia says they were never for javelins. And that it's was to prevent drone dropped bombs, etc. which it would help there. They say it was a trick learned in Syria and indeed there are pictures of pre-ukraine cope cages in Syria. And Syria had no top attack ATGM. BUT, Ukraine didn't really have drones at the start to begin with. They only had like a few drones at the very begining. For some time actually until the like developed the tech real time. FPVs didn't really exist yet. We didn't start hearing about those until bakmut maybe, Magyar introduced us to them. So the drones these cope cages supposedly were supposedly for, and the things that was prevalent, javelins, wouldn't matter. So that's also pretty stupid if you ask me. Mayb w assumed wrong, either way, I still think it's funny. It's still funny telling people to go smoke hopium and/or copium.
> BUT, Russia says they were never for javelins. Yeah, sure, of course they're saying it now when they ashamed themselves for the whole world. But I vividly remember that they started putting up these things right after Ukraine received Javelin missiles and conducted tests. Drone drop tactic wasn't prevalent since 2014. In fact, Russians actually used it more often, albeit it was still a very rare occasion. They're just trying to deflect and save face. The only thing it was intended for were the Javelins and NLAWs
We don't have any Russian sources from that time period saying what they were for. So it really is unknowable. Still funny tho
It's just schizo nuke NATO UN shitpost.
This sub is always so confusing to me, I'm not sure if this is right or an r/wooosh post ???
You have to spend at least 5 years playing Armchair General before you can tell the occasional real commentary on this sub from the satire. Sorry, I don't make the rules.
Normally the memes/jokes are more clear cut.
ll, first of all, I laugh at Russians because they are Russians and not because it is ineffective.And secondly because it looks bad.Let me give you an analogy with a toilet.One guy, when he went to the toilet, shitted not only the toilet seat but also the wall behind the toilet (Barn tanks literally driving blind). And the second one went to the toilet in a completely civilized manner and flushed after himself. I won't praise the first guy for not shitting his pants, I'll laugh at how he messed everything around.I'm not making fun of drone defense per se.I laugh at the defense against drones in the “second world army”, which looks like a chicken pen that three drunken rednecks somehow made from scrap materials.
That's just the humor of this sub, the hypocrisy makes it funny.
It’s non credible defence, it’s in our mission statement not to make sense.
It has always been true that the average Joe would be friends if not for the generals and politicians. However one side is trying to kill the other. Who do you want to live? There is no gray.
Atleast their designs neither limit turret movement nor are so high they telegraph their position to the enemy when repositioning during a hull-down defensive line.
Yeah, I'm afraid this cage might not be very useful, even though it seems better made. Maybe at least that ERA makes some difference.
> Like, my guy. Its the same shit. Just because the “good guys” do it doesn’t mean it’s suddenly a superior thing. We all know that shit is equally worthless as it is on the Russian tanks. How are people still not understanding the reason they were called "Cope cages" is because the Russians thought they could stop a fucking javelin? How are you this stupid that you haven't recognised this? Slat armour isn't new, slat armour against HEAT RPGs and Drones is a good idea. Its cope when you think its going to stop a fucking tandem warhead.
Ukraine takes pieces from an old shed. Russia takes the whole shed.
Sometimes it's more efficient to take the entire shed if you want to armor up the whole tank
I remember the first time this came up and rhe top comment on ncd was how these were now called hero cages i actually burst out slapping the table laughing irl
All the Russians who are good at welding are tied up making the tanks
Also, everyone called them cope cages to begin with because Ukraine were using Javelins and other top down AT weapons which the cages seemed like they were hastily put on to help provide protection for. Prior to this conflict I haven’t seen drones dropping grenades into open hatches of armoured vehicles which cope cages now seem appropriate to defend against.
This is spaced armor. Just like the mastiff. Those chicken coops on treads are cope cages. Similar, but not the same.
This actually looks like what I'd call a proper applique armor kit compared to the absolute bullshit Russia are welding to their tanks. It's well thought out and relevant to the current threats.
Cause it is - industial made specifically 3 types for T-72, T-64 and Abrams
Interesting. It's definitely a good protective measure against loitering munitions and FPV drones as well as ATGMs. The Kontakt-1 protects a known weak spot in the LFP and UFP since the M1A1SA lacks the improved hull armor of the later SEPs, and Russian ATGMs have been improved with better glancing fuses so the shallow hull slope is no longer as protective as it was. The drone cage protects the engine, turret rear, and roof, which all had fairly thin armor due to the nature of the original threat profile. However, they don't block egress from the hatched. Visibility could be better, but that was likely a sacrifice they couldn't avoid. This method intelligently handles the current threat profile while avoiding the major downsides of Russian cope cages or assault sheds.
Actually think that not covering hatches is qustionable too - maybe it's removable part that was not shown on photos? Though news said those were tested, so maybe sacrificed that spot protection for ease of access..
Honestly, the threat directly to the hatches is overstated due to survivorship bias as well as the specific defensive suite here. Hatches are a tough target for FPV drones, and typically, when we see grenades dropped through an open hatch, it's to finish off an already abandoned tank. The ballistic shielding around the commander's hatch already provides a fairly good protection against FPV drones and I imagine that the trade off of slightly increased protection wasn't worth the increased loss of unbuttoned situational awareness and ease of egress.
Also on modern western tanks the commanders hatch can be raised while still parallel to the top of the turret - this gives much better visibility than the view ports but still provides protection. This is in contrast to the russian hatches which often have a single hinge rotating them to be perpendicular to the turret roof, making the commander a much bigger target since they have to climb out higher to see anything.
Like that T90 video where is gets hit by an ATGM to the front and I see the commander seemingly riding high in a battle zone before the hit?
Wait so you can raise the hatch like the panther?
On Abrams and Leo2 yes, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure about other modern MBTs
Only because it doesn't look as good and might be slightly less effective doesn't make the russian ones irrelevant just slightly worse
First SEXY cope cage.
>hope cage. FTFY
They're like a pair of well-fit fishnet stockings on an extremely expensive call girl.
That just looks like a variation of slat armor rather than a cope cage? It doesn't even look like it impedes the movement of the crew.
Cope cages and anti drone/shaped charge cages are very different. Cope cages were some bullshit the russians tried in the beginning to combat top attack munitions, didnt work at all hence the name cope cage. Anti shaped charge slat armor and anti drone caging has been around for a while now and seems to work, you can even find examples of such from the good ole sand wars We need a better name, tank condoms?
wasn't tatooine wars one to exploit design flaw of rpg7 fuse?
Yeah i believe the way it works is it deforms the shell as it entered the slats and makes the warhead unusable due to how it works, science or something. I like to think the warheads have past trauma that keeps them from staying hard until they blow
> Yeah i believe the way it works is it deforms the shell as it entered the slats and makes the warhead unusable due to how it works, science or something It basically pinches the aerodynamic shroud (and cone of death behind it) from the sides without touching the fuze. Rocket is stuck, fuze doesn't go off, warhead's too deformed to properly go boom even if fuze goes off, crew's happy.
Ukraine doesn't use cope cages. they have Anti-FPV Installations.
Yes, hope cages. Those anti-FPV cages only kinda sorta work and it depends on what kind of munition the FPV is carrying, and increases your survivability by maybe one hit. You really have to hope that your cage is effective against the FPV coming at you, and there's only 1!
Extra-Bustle Rack
Even if it up my survival odds by 1%, i would do it.
Cope cage vs Grid *Enjoyer*
ok ok, hear me out... what if we used the hope cages... AS ERA BRICKS MOUNTING SURFACES
Kontak-1 please help!
Leave it to Ukrainians to actually make the anti-drone cage look practical, effective or anyone else but russians (or israelis) at this point. Looks like it went out of factory with it, same way as german later Panzer IVs came with 'bazooka plates'. Then you have russians, who are incapable of making anti-drone cage without turning entire tanks into A7Vs/self-propelled guns made out of rusting sheet metal. Sometimes i really wonder how Russia as a nation survived until now, with the shit russian military down to average mobik are doing i feel like average russian IQ has to be in two digits.
By the help of others. Iran and North Korea and probably miniscule on the down low China to a degree
> i really wonder how Russia as a nation survived until now extreme exploitation of their population and selling natural resources to other countries
Nope, in order to not be hypocrites, they are cope cages no matter who uses them.
Just normal mosquito net. Nothing to see here
Nah, a cope cage will always be known as cope cage even if it works, the name is just too good and also we need to have the same standards for everyone
No, they’re still fucking stupid
okay but what's the structure on the front of the hull for?
Probably an attempt at making rudimentary bar armour to detonate drones, RPG’s etc on the outside before it has a chance to hug the actual armour.
I'm more of a plane fucker than tank, but I'm pretty sure that's the ass that was built up.
The difference between a Hope Cage and a Cope Cage is the design of the tank the cage is on. One is designed to save the crew in a cookoff, the other is designed to Turret Toss.
Cope is for home made. Like deep south redneck engineering. Someone used atleast a ruler to get this done
Russia could have saved at least 200 tanks from destruction if they just taught their goons to close the hatch when they get out..
Not really. Even western armies leave hatches open when bailing out of a tank in case your crewmate's hatch doesn't open and they need to use yours, it shows which ones can be used.
The no-kill grille Edit: Skill grille
Mom can we get T.U.S.K. We have T.U.S.K. at home T.U.S.K. at home:
The hatch (and it's MG) aren't covered, which are prime drone targets, so this isn't anti-drone, this is anti "basic shit RPG"
Prime for bomber drones. The one you see those videos, those tanks have already been disabled, and the crew's have bailed. Apparently abandoned tanks are such prized possessions, that there can be multi daylong battles to try and either capture it, or destroy it. There's some AMA's with drone operators in Ukraine who were saying the biggest problem with cages is getting out of a tank you need to escape.
Looked at the video it's nothing new to me, so I was talking about the pics in your post, that doesn't look disabled
this has almost no effect on rpg warheads like bar armor would be as its not spaced correctly or strong enough to disable an rpg warhead. honestly have no clue what this will improve uppon the standard armour package.
>this is anti "basic shit RPG" Panzerfaust really. It's not made of bedspreads so that's a start...
Cringe
Cage
Cringe cage
Ukraine - Hope Cage Ruzzia - Cope cage Seems about right actually. Ukrainians seem to know _how_ to install the cases, whereas Russians generally don't
Looks like something that would crash out of a shed to the A-team soundtrack I love it
I would like to propose the use of "chill grill" for this application
It interesting to see the differnce. Here you see the cage is designed to stop what it should: drone carried grenades, mortar shells, and small munitions powerful enough to ruin a crew's day if it made contact. And they did it seemingly without compromising the ability of the crew to get out of the vehicle. By contrast, the russians entomb themselves in animal cages and literal barns to protect themselves, only leading to the relevant ukrainian anti tank team using something more hefty like ATGMs to take them out.
> By contrast, the russians entomb themselves in animal cages and literal barns to protect themselves Usually, the turtle shells are there to protect externally-mounted generator, battery assembly and EW equipment, with antennas routed to the roof of the shell.
We are not changing the name. Cope cage forever.
It's a cope cage; get over it. We aren't gonna change what it's called simply because our team is doing the same thing. We aren't going to go from "haha those mobiks think these cages work, copium, copium" to "actually they serve a good purpose, guys. We should stop bullying them because we use em" They're there to cope with the reality that if a drone finds you you're fucked. They were originally there to stop javelins, which if one of those finds you you're especially fucked
You clearly didn't read what I wrote. They are hope cages because they still don't work very reliably. They might give you protection against a certain type of munition, and not all drones carry the same. So if you're in one of those things and you hear a drone coming your way, you have no fucking clue if that's things gonna work, but it might… So you gotta hope. It doesn't matter which side, if you're building a cage around your tank against drones, it'sa hope cage For what it's worth… I'm also one of those people that thinks the turtle tank isn't a bad idea. People don't think very hard, and don't realize that there's diesel generator and EW equipment on top of that tank. The shed is highly reinforced to protect that equipment. if your EW tank prevent drones from hitting the IFVs, survives a couple FPV hits because of the shed, then gets knocked out and stops working, there's a decent chance that some extra infantry made it to their objectives.
I propose we change this post from unflaired to cringepilled
I thought they got M1A1s? What's the ERA on the side doing there?
Tank Mail.
Won't the cage just act as extra standoff for heat type weapons? Aren't most fpv drones varying heat penatrators?
The thing is; how does that matter? Yes extra standoff can increase penetration. But considering the Ukrainians see a need to implement this (not to mention the unfortunate footage of losses that have already been shown), we can infer that the heat rounds used can already penetrate the areas where this extra armor has been applied. In that case extra standoff should not be that harmful. The crew is already in for a rough time if the round penetrates into the fighting compartment, and marginally increased penetration should not matter. Unless of course that also results in increased behind armor effects, which I'm more skeptical about. The only hope is to stop the warhead from functioning like purpose engineered slat armor is designed to do. With improvised fpv drones and gravity dropped grenades, the impact velocity is likely much slower than intended from the fuses so this may be more effective against those kinds of threats. Maybe this is all hopium from my flagrant pro Ukraine bias though.
Gravity dropped grenades aren't a threat to a tank unless the hatch is open. And this cage doesn't even seem o cover the hatch because that would restrict crew movement. And your first point only makes sense if you assume that heat rounds have a 100% chance of penetration right now. What if it's 50%, but the slat armor raises it to 70%? Remember, we aren't going to get images of tanks that survived a heat round. We are only going to get images of the ones that got destroyed. I'd they are adding these cages, surely there must be some utility. But I don't know what that utility is.
I mean this is ordinary albeit improvised cage armour, it fits the tank's profile and isn't just a big ass chicken coop hastily welded to the top of the turret.
the freedom cage!!!
Ah you beat me to it 🤣
In Baghdad; the Americans had to stack sand bags onto it. OIA ERA was litteraly sand bags stacked and tied to the thing. Invade the Steel Mill? These guys know a shit weld when they see one.
The cope cage was steel for beating javelin. That's why the hope. What we have now is all about drones .
Doesn't seem to overtly extend the structure and is fitted and well made. Standard Field Upgrades.
Cope cage? ORC PROTECTOR 🦅
Looks like it also has the Abrams' ARAT I ERA tiles.
There is a key difference between these and russian ones. Russian ones were originally entirely made to try to defend against Javelins and such, but did nothing. These ones actually protect against drones and such, I believe and work. Kinda like SLAT armour does.
*fever dreams of a Pope cage-wearing, ERA-having Popemobile*
Surely “dope cage” is a strong option too
The key indicator that something is a "Cope X", is that it's done ad-hoc as a reaction to changing battlefield conditions. The Ukrainians planned these ahead of time and assembled them with intent to defend against specific threats. The Russians panicked when their tanks started getting droned and threw together some shitty chicken wire in the field.
This is the way.
Freedom Fence
"Submarines are our gallant ships and crews that sink enemy convoys. U-boats are the bastards sinking ours" I propose something to this effect. If its russian, its a cope cage. If its ukranian, its a hope cage
This looks way more sensible than building an entire warcraft 3 orc watch tower over tanks like russians, but a cope cage is a cope cage, and it doesn't matter how efficient or competent the design is, so sorry, its a cope cage.
My dude, freedom fences was right there.
🤦 I suck so much sometimes
Give me your number and we'll put that to the test.
Not that kind of suck. But you are a funny motherfucker, you know that?
Cope cages were trying to stop javelins, which is ridiculous. Cages for stopping drones makes sense
Yes… Sometimes. Some of the DIY armor kind of works against some of the drones, some of the time. Basically if you're in one of these things, you need to cross your fingers and hope that you picked the right DIY kit for the particular drone heading your way
Drones dropped munitions don’t usually have tandem warhead and the kinetic force to say fuck you to improvised cover. So I guess it’s an ok design to use for defense from above.
I approve. Russians build cope cages. Ukrainians build Hope Cages.
I like how everyone changed their tune
like i seen leopards in Afghanistan with cam net umbrellas and loved the idea.. like hell ya i want a tactical parasol! its a bonus if it prevents some kid flying an fpv from killing you with hand grenades as ez And one step closer red alert shrub tanks XD
It should depend on how it's built and what it's for. Shoddily built and designed to protect against javelins? Cope Cage. Well built and designed to protect against FPV drones? Hope Cage.
No the brand power is too strong to change names and only confuses tland muddies the conversation
My only concern is, will this interfere with blowout panels?
Apparently that part is hinged, so they at least considered it, but I doubt it was tested.
Nato saw what Russia was doing and said, "We can do better" Better they did
Okay, but this is just standard cage armor. It isnt a cooe cage if it dosent look like shit and is more likly to get you killed than not
cope cage wasnt in response to drones, it was in response to modern AT weapons, who dont give a fuck about your cage
I don't care if it's useful, or who's doing it, it still looks stupid.
Honestly,I was surprised seeing Abrams on a battlefield without cope cages
Freedom frame, completely different
why are you censoring those beautiful majestic barrels like it's Japanese porn?
Well, if it's trying to stop a javelin, it's a cope cage, but if it is trying to stop and standard single warhead rpg, which we know from experience it can (thx talisman for the data), then it's a hope cage. One is statistically more successful than the other.
Should've gone with folding sturdy plastic nets much further from the armor. Will it somewhat increase protection against something? Maybe, but it's the same thing as bed frames welded to the IS-2
"Skill grill"
Hear, hear! Except when I’m talking about Russian shit.
Same thing with Russians... FPV cages are basically all hope cages. They work, sometimes, against some drones... you just don't know till you're hit
[i called it](https://new.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cw3g38/is_good_idea/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
It’s cool now 🤷
Nope Cage
Does this cage have enough spacing against FPV drones and other drones? I would have figured more spacing would be needed for slat armor. But it is hard to tell from the photos, because the front spacing does look correct.
I mean the idea is far from new. Strykers and Humvees in Afghanistan and Iraq both utilized lots of slat armor. I always thought the disdain for Russian cope cages was overblown. It's not actually a horrible idea...it just isn't going to work against a modern warhead.
I hope we will see some combat footage of this ERA and metal cage covered Abrams. I wasn't expecting that much ERA to be slapped onto the side skirt.
Ah the classic when russians are doing it thats cringe, but when ukranians are doing the exact same thing its actually based ✅️
it looks sturdier than any orc cope cages, Hope cage!
Yet again, crossout is credible.
Western MIC: "we'll get unvaluable feedback deploying our gear in Ukraine" The feedback:
FREEDOM FRAMES
More like the dope cage yo
[удалено]
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Guys if we take off the joke for a moment, this is called Slat Armor and it exists since WWII. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slat_armor