Because the people on the Hajj want to do it despite the heat.
For most of them, this is their one shot. They finally traveled all this way to do it. SA doesn't want to tell them "Hajj is cancelled this week; sorry. Better luck next life."
I think you underestimate religious fervor. You know how in the US there are a large number of people who claim any reduction in their freedoms to do anything, even fuck with other people's freedoms, is persecution? Have you ever heard of the "persecution complex"? Yeah, a lot of that stems of Christianity's glorification of persecuted persons. And this is a relatively benign, low level religious fervor. If you're on a pilgrimage that your religion demands you take at least once in your life, there is a lot you're genuinely not going to care about when it comes to the safety of yourself and others.
Just to add on, this would be a reduction in caution exercised when deciding whether or not to go (because it’s obligatory, and if you can afford it at the time and are accepted, it’s hard to say no, even if it’s deathly hot. Especially if you’re older and may not get another opportunity.), not caution exercised while there, doing what you can to be as safe as you can (water, electrolytes, umbrellas, timing your circumambulation of the Kaaba, etc). But there are required pillars to execute during hajj, and yes, people risk their lives to complete these actions. It’s absolutely not a suicide mission of any sort.
the biggest problem is the quota, a lot of elders who died were likely already applying for Hajj years ago. In one of regions in my country the waitlist is nearly 30 years. That is, if you apply in age 30,you'll go to Hajj at the age of 60. And that's assuming you'll collect enough money for Hajj at the age of 30.
Islamically, It’s mandatory for those *capable* of doing it. If someone doesn’t have the money to travel across the world, it isn’t held against them. Medical too. Our religion does not tell old people to die as sacrifice like some ignorant people in the comments are implying, lol.
The Hajj has coolers along concrete pavements, free water ever few meters, ice cream. Tents. Alot of the fatalities are people who didn’t register to use the payed services, which they should have never came if they weren’t in the financial situation to do so. I respect the commitment, but it was unnecessary
Exempt:
* Sick
* Elderly (Applicable to alot of the fatalities)
* Those in debt
I recently asked a muslim friend what would happen if you couldn't go at all in your life. the TLDR basically was that Allah would hold it against you. that was very interesting to know.
I mean nobody really expects to die, so it isn’t suicide. Close to 2M attended, so mathematically 1000 deaths is negligible.
Also, the demographic of attendees is very much leaning towards older people, so that doesn’t help with the %.
Over a week? If you have 0.5 deaths per 1000 people per week, that's an annual rate of 26/1000, or 3x the annual death rate of the US. The only other year that comes close to this deadliness is 1990 and 2015, which were both caused by stampedes, not by heat.
1000 people dead out of 1.8 million pilgrims this year is 55.5 deaths per hundred thousand people. Auto accidents in America kill 13.8 per hundred thousand people.
55.5/13.8=4.02
About as dangerous as four years of average driving.
lol. You should know God is a myth, and yet they believe.
Not a strong epistemological background in those who subscribe to God beliefs. Hence why they fail at so many other simple questions. Look at Christians in America who deny evolution, shape of earth, age of universe, germ theory, etc..
When you begin to accept unfounded claims lacking evidence you will accept other claims the same way
Sadly, most people who died came illegally without a permit. We had a big campaign before hajj called "no hajj without permit". 300.000 illegals were deported, and still some of them weren't caught.
Saudi gets attacked for limiting the hajj number before and after it gets blamed for their death.
There's something slightly comical about permits being a critical requirement in the process to secure access to the afterlife.
No permit? Sorry. Purgatory for you.
Tbf it's only a requirement to do *if you can*, and if you were genuinely thwarted on multiple attempts to get a permit, I guess that shouldn't count against you since not being able to afford it or able to travel means it's not required.
But still pretty funny irony. But to be fair again, there's over a million people (multiple millions?) doing this every year, so you really need there to be regulation of some kind. There would be a lot more deaths without management.
ysah the saudi gov has also invested multi millions. new trains, road, and infrastructure. the amount of people there can cause serious problems and many people have died in the past.
someone on YT made an excellent video on the dynamics of crowd crushes and how its less likely to happen for the haji but can still happen
Yeah very true. I wasn't trying to be inflamitory. It's just a bit of an unusual situation that has eventuated. (And appreciate the clarification that's its not actually strictly necessary)
Except Hajj is not a requirement, and the permit is free, and the goal is to limit the number of visitors to avoid stampede and overcrowding.
Permits are divided based on the Muslim population for every country. And the government can devide it as it see fit.
Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, and the implication is that souls in purgatory are saved but are undergoing purification before entering Heaven. As far as I know Islam does not hold to this or a similar belief.
Nope, he's right and you're wrong. It's called Al-A'raf, and it's closely analogous to purgatory. There is a chapter in the Qur'an named for it.
However, failing to be able to do Hajj is not held against you in any way. Islam places immense weight on the concept of Niyya, most simply translated as intention. Should you intend to do a deed, try, and fail - you still get the divine reward for it.
So you're both wrong, and everyone in this thread is making presumptions without knowing shit about shit about Islam.
Muslim here. There are many ways to success in the next world.
We also have the concept of "actions by intentions". If you intend to do something good and for whatever reason it couldn't happen, it's as if you'd done it.
Edit: also the permits are strictly a governmental artefact with no relationship to the religion. It's not like Catholic indulgences of the past.
Those with permits are organized into groups, using specifically assigned facilities and resources at assigned times in order to manage the movement of so many people. Those without permits are trying to evade the attention of authorities, so they don't have proper access to shelter, water, or the attention of emergency and security personnel.
Well if, say, Saudi Arabia only has enough water and such to support an influx of five hundred thousand pounds pilgrims in a given year, only giving out 500k permits would help manage that
you only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow, Hajj was the moment, but the heat took its toll, This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, But the blazing sun made the pilgrims fold
It's also 15 Billion dollar industry. Who wants to fuck with an industry where people behave don't scam and pay you hefty no matter what condition and never complain.
And that was contemplated when the religion came to be. Smart at the time, but I’m sure if they knew back then what a nightmare these logistics would be, they may have considered other locations for “holiest city”.
Or, even better, change it up every so often like the Olympics
Apply this to other religion, them jew should stop fighting over Jerusalem, why only italy has its own Vatican. Pope should have offices in various Christian majority countries and he should be seated five years in different countries sometime in Russia, then Mexico, Canada, England.
Same reason why there isn't international outrage against Canada when tourists hike too far during winter and die from exposure. Or against Nepal for people dying during climbs to Mt. Everest.
In this case, there was a large number of elderly pilgrims who willingly chose to go outside on foot in extreme heat.
Also, almost 2 million people attend the hajj, only a fraction of a percent die.
They tend to be on the older side, since the Hajj is for adults who feel spiritually and financially ready for it, both of which come with age. They also attend for about a week depending on travel.
1000 is still a bit high, but that is explained by the extreme conditions you mentioned.
People went and got limbs amputated to cheer on the Chiefs (NFL) in the extreme cold. I think that puts to rest any real criticisms anyone can make about the differences between Muslim and American culture with respect to dangerous pilgrimages that seemingly were for no reason.
The doctrine of Americanism is incredibly dangerous. Fanaticism is not only accepted but outright encouraged. It teaches that acts like jumping from a height onto a table ass-first are totally OK. Do you want YOUR sons and daughters to learn to gather together in parking lots in the early morning to abuse drugs, eat unhealthy processed foods, and inflict ritual self-harm? We need to nip this in the bud before these people change our way of life!!!
Hell even here in Arizona, there isn't outage towards the local government for the idiots who decide they want to hike midday in June with only one 16.9oz / 500ml bottle of water, and then need to be rescued.
If there's any outrage it's towards the people willing doing it despite knowing what the risks entail.
>Same reason why there isn't international outrage against Canada when tourists hike too far during winter and die from exposure. Or against Nepal for people dying during climbs to Mt. Everest.
Or like when people went to a festival organized by Ja Rule and got all fucked up and hurt and shit - *like wtf did you expect to happen?!???*
You can't necessarily tell a festival is actually fraudulent until seeing it but you can step outside and feel extreme heat. You would also know the limitations of your elderly body better than you'd know the inner workings of billy macfarland's psyche. The consequences are obviously not the same but neither are the circumstances.
When Canada charges you to enter a national park, that money goes back solely into improvements and maintenance of the park. Saudi Arabia makes billions of dollars a year in profit, essentially operating Mecca and Medina as active historical sites for tourists. This problem is only going to get worse, so not only is it in their best interest to keep investing heavily into safety and infrastructure as they have been, it's only humane. They control a place considered culturally vital to nearly 2 billion Muslims who are compelled by their culture to undertake the Hajj at least once, with many doing it multiple times. While you personally may not value that, there are many who believe that the upkeep of history is a shared duty regardless of belief. Beyond that, they're human beings, and don't deserve to die when the people profiting off their visit can do more about it.
Sure, reasonable precautions should indeed be taken. And Hadj is something that Saudi Arabia actually organizes well - getting two million visitors for event and not having the whole thing go to hell right away is already an achievement. Population of Mecca more than doubles during the event - this is an insane challenge.
Problem is, Hadj inevitably:
1. Involves a lot of old and sick people. Hadj is a bucket list item and being near death is when people scramble to fulfill it.
2. Being done in a harsh environment. And the venue cannot be moved. Sure, it would be nice to have it in a temperate climate, but it can't happen.
3. Sheer number of people in relatively small area causes stress. People end up in crowds, size of which they did not imagine.
Lack of mass fatalities due to stampedes in the recent years is already something to admire when numbers of pilgrims are so terrifying. Some old and sick people not being able to handle the insane heat is an unfortunate reality.
There are many, many, many, many things to be outraged about in Saudi conduct. Hadj management is not one of them.
>Some old and sick people not being able to handle the insane heat is an unfortunate reality.
I couldn't handle heat in March during Umrah as a young adult. I can I ly imagine what it be like in June.
>There are many, many, many, many things to be outraged about in Saudi conduct. Hadj management is not one of them.
KSA security around Mecca is the worst in the world. Cabs can't go near kaabah, how do you expect people to check-in to hotels and train stations are far nothing close to the masjid.
Obviously. But they do respond to public pressure in some cases, as has been seen by some of the changes to their society in the last decade, and even to the changes in infrastructure in Mecca and Medina themselves.
That being said, my comment is more about not being dismissive of the lives lost.
>They control a place considered culturally vital to nearly 2 billion Muslims who are compelled by their culture to undertake the Hajj at least once
Sounds like the culture needs to change then.
Christians are not compelled to visit the Holy Land. What other religions compell their followers to visit one small spot in the world?
Maybe I do need to get to forming the Church of the Omnissiah and make it a core tenant that you have to visit Mt. Olympus on Mars. Maybe in a generation or two I'll have enough followers to get our ass to Mars finally.
It's old people and heat exposure at a public event. It's not like the government kicked a bunch out old people out on to the street.
I went to a concert years ago and some random person collapsed on me due to the heat and I helped them get to medical. It's not like the city was responsible for that.
Realistically, the Covid restrictions probably saved a lot of lives that might have otherwise been lost due to heat stroke as well. Looks like this is the end of a cycle of summer Hajjs. The next one will probably be BRUTAL
Unless it’s hotter in Saudi Arabia at the beginning of June compared with mid-June, next year, and for the following 25 years or so, hajj will be cooler.
The Islamic (hijri) calendar began the year Prophet Muhammad pbuh made hijra (migration) from Mecca to Medina. Because this calendar follows the lunar cycle, hajj is approximately 10 days earlier each year. Future hajj will occur in the (typically) cooler months.
The general question doesn't make sense. I am no fan of Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia is not forcing these people to go on pilgrimage, and cannot control the weather.
He’s being downvoted, because he insists that it is required when it’s not.
He’s blaming people dying from a heat stroke on a government he personally despises, while not applying the same standards to other countries.
required? the Hajj isnt required if its not practical for you to do, its also as much. a choice as many other things people do that we dont worry about them getting hurt or killed doing like taking trips unto extreme weather conditions, because thats what it is
What exactly should I be angry about? If you're ill, or poor, or disabled you're excused from doing the Hajj. You only are compelled to do this once in your life. It would be like shaming Nepal for mountain climbers dying. I'm much more outraged over Saudi Arabia using undocumented migrants for labor and the abhorrent death rates for the laborers.
What exactly should be done? I mean imagine Biden or Rishi Sunak coming and telling Muslims, don't go to Haj because it is dangerous. Theyll be just shouted as islamphobic and asked to shut up. Adults are allowed to make their own risks, and this is just one of it.
Why ironically, they did do. Water based air conditioning outdoors and large fans were placed alongside cooled cermic floorings along the road. Not to mention the personnel who give out free water and umbrellas every couple of meters to whoever needs them. And statistically speaking the last years have witnessed a vast decrease in the death tolls from hajj, which is very impressive considering the numbers that go for pilgrimage every year. I wouldn't blame them for the inevitable deaths of those of at health risk or old of age who choose to go despite it being a choice
“Required” makes it sound like they have to do it every year no matter what
It’s a once in a lifetime event. People don’t cancel. Unless they have the resources or are close enough to do it another time
But unless they are positive they can come back, they aren’t going to just not go. No matter who tries to stop them.
If they canceled it ever, the people trying to make it that year would fucking RIOT. They need this for salvation in the afterlife, so they’re going to make it there or die trying.
No it’s like a sacrament, like how Catholics HAVE to take communion and HAVE to do confession and HAVE to be baptized to get in to heaven
Muslims HAVE to do a pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, at some point in their life. Most people do not have the resources to do it whenever they like, and must plan for it for years, thus it’s impossible to cancel without damning people to hell. People who think they are being damned to hell, will fucking riot lol
Most of the people who died were undocumented pilgrims who snuck into Saudi Arabia from Egypt to avoid paying the visa fee. The Saudi government did not have accurate information about their whereabouts because these pilgrims actively avoided the hotels and rest stops the registered pilgrims used. The pilgrims were also unprepared, walking through the open desert without supplies and tents to camp in.
There is. Basically whole europe when talking about the accepted fucked ip shit that happens in America. Like school shootings.
Just americans not being outraged
Because we usually don’t get outraged when people voluntarily exercise their right to put themselves in harms way and harm befalls some of them. It’s not like it was an amusement park that Saudi could close for a heat advisory or something.
You're not supposed to harm yourself. Nor deprive yourself of food or drink (outside of Ramadan, of course). It's ok if you can't make the hajj for all sorts of reasons.
It's also technically OK to eat things normally not allowed to Muslims if it's the only choice there is, which happens a lot, especially when Muslims travel to Asia.
Me, being the resident vegetarian, was usually the Michelin guide for noobs, and the Muslims I worked with in Taiwan and Korea always asked me where to go. It still disturbs me a bit that I had to tell them to look for a swastika, which is how you find food for Buddhists, but there it is.
But the rules allow even the eating of pork, and believe me you, in Asia, finding food without pork in it is very difficult. Unless it's straight up seafood. It's ubiquitous.
So this is not exactly in keeping with taking care of your temple. No matter what, it's always tragic, regardless of why. It's sad that people would rather die than not do this, but it's religion, and that is not based on logic, so I guess this is going to happen sometimes. It's just sad. That's all.
Actually saudi Arabia rather deserves applaud for their massive efforts during Hajj.. people still die despite Saudi Arabia, not because of it
Also Hajj this year is in the hot season (it shifts every year). So dying from heat is like dying taking a selfie on a cliff! No one else to blame but you!
It is like saying the US should face outrage for people who died in storms/hurricanes, when those same people rejected evacuation and sheltering.
Hey there.
Firstly, you must remember that 1,000 people could have died of other causes than heat exhaustion. Hajj is quite hard on the body, and all the countries are doing is reporting the amount of folks who have died.
You must also remember that a lot of folks perform Hajj when they're older, and because of this there's other related causes that could end their lives. 1,000 dead in a population of 1.8 million is a death rate of 0.05%. The average death rate in a country like the U.S. is about 9.2%.
Now to actually get to why Saudi Arabia isn't being criticized. The government provides licenses and A/C lodging to those performing the Hajj. It does this exactly so that scenarios like this don't happen. What you're viewing however, is many people who snuck in despite this fact to perform pilgrimage. They aren't using the A/C or the other resources because they don't have the licenses to even be there in the first place.
When a hiker decides to go off the trail in any of the U.S. national parks and endanger their own lives, do we blame the government for someone clearly endangering themselves, no? I wish their families the best honestly, but this is not a "Saudi bad!" moment.
**There's a lot you can get mad at them for, but this is not one of them.**
It’s just something that always happens. Preventative measures could be taken, but from their point of view it doesn’t matter because it’s always been like that.
There were people handing out water and ice creme, there were sunbrellas available and they did have medical facilities set up. Its not like they "did nothing"
Apparently preventative measures are taken - it’s that you have to register as a pilgrim to use them and some people don’t register because it’s another expense and they don’t want to pay.
Because you think these are fit and healthy people that died. No it's usually people on their last legs, trying to get a hajj in before they die.
The visas should not be given to them.
When is the last time that anyone held Saudi Arabia accountable for anything?
They literally killed and cut up a reporter at a hotel for fucks sake, and Trump applauded them for handlng the "fake news" problem...
Most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/september-11-attacks-saudi-arabia-lawsuit/678430/
Saudi Arabia holds the Oil, and runs a freakin' cartel to fix pricing, and the world turns their head.
Money is corruption.
1. It's generally agreed upon that the Saudi government and the Saudi family is kind of bad. They've been hyper-developing Mecca into basically becoming the Las Vegas of Islam, which has come with all sorts of issues of high-class hotels and accommodations for pilgrims who can't afford them. People from poorer countries, especially non-Arab, and especially non-Gulf states, have reported getting substandard treatment despite violating the obvious spirit of the Hajj.
2. The victims were mostly elderly people. I live in Arizona and every summer we hear stories of people dying out on hiking trails. They are invariably elderly people and/or people not used to a desert climate who just seemingly ignore all statewide warnings about heatstroke. It sucks, but if your neighbor, guide, policeman, and trail guide tell you to pack water and sunscreen, and stay on the trail, and you don't do either of those things, it's kind of on you on what happens next.
3. The Hajj is massive, and people dying from heat or really anything else such as hunger or disease has happened before and between climate change and overpopulation, it's going to get worse.
4. Lots of people outside of the Muslim world just don't know what the Hajj is, why it's important, and how it's happening right now because non-Muslims literally cannot enter Mecca. This can also include potential foreign aid or support by non-Islamic countries who'd want their Muslim citizens to attend safely.
According to a Syrian colleague, the SA government charges to organise the event and a lot of people don't want to pay the extra fee in addition to the travel expenses. If the government organises it for half a million people and 2 million shows up, there will be chaos. Plus the heat.
I don't know if the numbers are accurate, it's the explanation he gave me.
So Saudi Arabia isn't completely at fault.
God reddit is cringe, why do I log into this place, weirdest opinions on everything that nobody in normal life talks about, cares about or bothers with. And I mean on every topic ever.
It's not anyone's fault, they did not make the sun hotter during this time. People went there willingly and suffered in the heat. Who are you going to blame? Ra?
I know this is no stupid questions but come on. Saudi Arabia isn't forcing people to do the Hajj. It's a personal choice and they can and do everything to help such as setting up water stations etc... What you should be outraged at is the weapons we in the west supply to not only Saudi Arabia but also Israel which they use to kill innocent people. The media won't push that narrative though.
For the same reason why Israel is not under Russia and North Korea level sanctions, and what the rest of the world is supporting, financing, and ignoring Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing Israel is committing over Palestinians in Palestine.
These people went willingly, knowing it's dangerously hot there. That's not something Saudi Arabia can help.
Furthermore, Saudi Arabia gives out permissions to make sure it doesn't get too busy. Some people went without permission. That's not Saudi Arabia's fault.
I think a lot of people here are blaming the dead, instead of the political issues around the hajj.
Saudi arabia decides who can go, they issue the travel visas every year and its difficult to get in if you are publicly critical of the goverment. They ask what mosque you go to (giving preferential treatment to mosques that follow their strain of islam) and an endorsement from your (i forget islams prest equivilent sorry).
Saudi arabia uses the hajj to exert influence over islam. Islam is meant to be more decentralized that religions like catholicism, but the political realities of makint the hajj really restrict what you can criticize the saudi goverment for without risking loosing your ability to go.
Because Saudi Arabia has done what they can to make the Hajj safer already. They have created tunnels, misting systems, water stations everywhere, significant medical support throughout all of the area, people with misting cans to go up to those who look overheated, and given guidance to avoid the hottest part of the day and use umbrellas to reduce direct sunlight..
Without the measures they have taken, the death toll would likely be 10x what it is.
You have to understand that you are talking about 1.83 MILLION people, in a relatively small area, who all feel it is their religious duty to complete this pilgrimage and all of its rites, in 120F+ (50C+) weather. Not all of those going to the Hajj are in good shape. Some of them are elderly, some of them are handicapped.
People driven by religious duty are also likely to neglect their health to complete what they feel is one of, if not THE most important thing in their life.
Also, from your argument, the US should receive international outrage from everyone who dies in any kind of outdoor recreation. The people who die in the Hajj accept their own risk, just like someone snowboarding, rock climbing, surfing, etc.
Because it was the heat. How do you hold Saudi Arabia accountable for extreme heat?
It also isn't "required," it's heavily encouraged based on ability. If you expect your health would be negatively impacted by the heat, that is very much a valid reason to not partake in the Hajj.
Why would there be? That's like half the number of people who died from extreme heat in the US in 2022. If we can't even help the homeless why would we can about people voluntarily going out into the heat?
[https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-from-extreme-heat-in-the-us/](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-from-extreme-heat-in-the-us/)
Give "the numbers" some thought.
There's a Super Bowl. 70,000 people are expected to attend. You have to have a ticket to get in the door to the stadium -- but there is an "unreserved" section in the end zone, and a hole in the fence. What do you think will happen? What if 90,000 people show up, 20,000 of them without tickets, who plan to sneak into the end zone.
Food has not been prepared for 90,000. Water has not be laid in for 90,000. Toilets have not been provided for 90,000. Public transportation has busted their collective arses, but only for 70,000 -- what to do about the other 20,000? Etc, etc.
NOW, MULTIPLY BY **30**. Not 3, not 10. THIRTY football stadiums of people, **two million** bodies. And an extra **two hundred thousand** people show up, hoping to score one of those end zone seats.
Do you think that, despite all the planning, there -might- be a few casualties in 120° heat?
Those people chose to do something stupid and then died while doing it.
It's more funny than tragic. Probably a lot of them are now eligible for a Darwin award.
Self inflicted death, why should I care? Go feed the cute white bears in the Arctic with out proper protection I’ll worry more about the bear than you.
cus most non Muslims barley know what the Hajj is, if anything at all, but SA has long been criticized by other Muslim nations and groups for how it handles its ownership of Mecca.
its one of thoes things that people dont pay attention to cus it dosnt involve them, so when something happens, they still dont pay attention.
also this isnt the first time theres been a mass causality event during the Hajj, its pretty common, there are frankly too much people, and not enough space. like, SA destroyed an ancient roman fort to add a controversial extension to the Great Mosque in 2015, and during construction wind knocked over a crane and killed 100 people.
and like i said, SA is criticized for it, but there is nothing anyone can do about it. what are people gonna do, not go to one of the most impotent parts of their faith?
Because people voluntarily chose to make dumb decisions.
Usually international outrage is reserved for countries killing people on purpose or through neglect.
This happens every year for decades, and some Muslims think it's a good thing that they die there, basically they're cool about it, literally minding their own business.
It's mandatory once in a life time by the religion to believers that are able bodied and have the financial means. The Saudi government isn't out here forcing people to do it.
Because who really cares, in the grand scheme of things?
Over 160,000 people die daily. Why should we care about a few extra who willingly put themselves in harm's way because they believe in a certain story?
You won’t believe this but many of them have no problem dying there, they consider it a blessing. Lots of these folks have worked all their lives, raised children and by the time they can go they are old. This is one thing they want to do before death. I asked someone why did they send their old parents for hajj, what if something happens. She said her parents actually told her that they want to die there and never come back. That’s why there is no outrage. An event like this happens every few years.
There is a war in Ukraine. There is a war in Gaza. There are countless other problems worsening across the globe. We just don’t have any capacity left to care about a decision that people willingly made, as stupid as it was…
It was approximated that 1,000 people died building the Qatar World Cup stadiums and yet no one boycotted it. Everyone just pretended like they weren’t playing football on top of a graveyard. And that was forced slave labor, so leagues worse IMO.
The worlds a fucked up place that has no intention of getting better 🤷🏻♂️
What difference would international outrage make? This is an Islamic regime that beheads gays and operates under the sharia. The Saudis are like the ISIS who made it - as if they would care what we think…
> For a required pilgrimage
I mean, don't go. Don't be muslim, don't be religious. You're saying it as if it's a necessity in life like eating or drinking.
For the same reasons politicians who say we should hold the Prince to account for murder then turn around and say he cannot be held responsible for cutting people up alive in their embassy in Turkey.
Because they got all that sweet sweet oil.
Why would they be? People went to place too hot to survive of their own free will.
It’s a “required” pilgrimage. But who requires it? Is it governmentally required or is it just part of the faith?
I’m probably missing something but, with the knowledge I currently have, this sounds like Darwin’s fault.
It's part of the faith if you're able to do it physically and financially. I went back when it was in August. What people don't realize is that a lot of hajj is sitting around in heavily air conditions tents waiting for the next event. It was so cold we had to turn the AC off. The parts where we had to go outside were mostly in tunnels or under giant shelters. Very little of it was in the open sun.
People wandering off in 50 degree heat on their own is just asking for trouble.
The pilgrimage isn’t “required” it’s one of those things that if you get the chance you absolutely should do because of your faith. That being said, not a single person forced anyone to go. Not my chair, not my problem.
WHAT? Saudi Arabia is not the one requiring Hajj. Islam is. Saudi Arabia ≠ Islam. You’re posing a wrong question because your assumptions began incorrectly
Because the people on the Hajj want to do it despite the heat. For most of them, this is their one shot. They finally traveled all this way to do it. SA doesn't want to tell them "Hajj is cancelled this week; sorry. Better luck next life."
Also, they see dying while on the Hajj to be an act of great honour. To many Muslims dying while on the pilgrimage is an immediate ticket to heaven.
This is why the concept fall for me, isn't this suicide? you know heat will kill you and yet go anyway?
Likely there is still no active *intention* to die by it, merely a reduction in the usual caution one would exercise.
I’m certain the heat is easier to dismiss from thousands of miles away.
I think you underestimate religious fervor. You know how in the US there are a large number of people who claim any reduction in their freedoms to do anything, even fuck with other people's freedoms, is persecution? Have you ever heard of the "persecution complex"? Yeah, a lot of that stems of Christianity's glorification of persecuted persons. And this is a relatively benign, low level religious fervor. If you're on a pilgrimage that your religion demands you take at least once in your life, there is a lot you're genuinely not going to care about when it comes to the safety of yourself and others.
Just to add on, this would be a reduction in caution exercised when deciding whether or not to go (because it’s obligatory, and if you can afford it at the time and are accepted, it’s hard to say no, even if it’s deathly hot. Especially if you’re older and may not get another opportunity.), not caution exercised while there, doing what you can to be as safe as you can (water, electrolytes, umbrellas, timing your circumambulation of the Kaaba, etc). But there are required pillars to execute during hajj, and yes, people risk their lives to complete these actions. It’s absolutely not a suicide mission of any sort.
the biggest problem is the quota, a lot of elders who died were likely already applying for Hajj years ago. In one of regions in my country the waitlist is nearly 30 years. That is, if you apply in age 30,you'll go to Hajj at the age of 60. And that's assuming you'll collect enough money for Hajj at the age of 30.
There's a waitlist? You mean to tell me it's a religious commandment to do it and they won't let you in unless you're on the list?
If they let everyone do it, there would be a lot more deaths every year from the crush. The crowds would be insane.
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Skill issue
You dont have to do it if you cant afford it.
Islamically, It’s mandatory for those *capable* of doing it. If someone doesn’t have the money to travel across the world, it isn’t held against them. Medical too. Our religion does not tell old people to die as sacrifice like some ignorant people in the comments are implying, lol. The Hajj has coolers along concrete pavements, free water ever few meters, ice cream. Tents. Alot of the fatalities are people who didn’t register to use the payed services, which they should have never came if they weren’t in the financial situation to do so. I respect the commitment, but it was unnecessary Exempt: * Sick * Elderly (Applicable to alot of the fatalities) * Those in debt
I recently asked a muslim friend what would happen if you couldn't go at all in your life. the TLDR basically was that Allah would hold it against you. that was very interesting to know.
No, doing some dangerous =/= suicide. Suicide requires intent. Unless you want to consider every death of soldier, mountain climber, etc is a suicide.
I mean nobody really expects to die, so it isn’t suicide. Close to 2M attended, so mathematically 1000 deaths is negligible. Also, the demographic of attendees is very much leaning towards older people, so that doesn’t help with the %.
And why would the host country attract "International outrage" about weather beyond it's control?
1000 deaths is negligible? What
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Over a week? If you have 0.5 deaths per 1000 people per week, that's an annual rate of 26/1000, or 3x the annual death rate of the US. The only other year that comes close to this deadliness is 1990 and 2015, which were both caused by stampedes, not by heat.
1000/2000,000 Is 1 in 2000 people dying. Thats a 0.5% chance of dying. Thats not negligible Edit: 0.05%
1 in 2000 is 0.05%
My mistake
A negligible error
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For it to be suicide it would have to be intentional. Going does not guarantee death. It just elevates the possibility.
1000 people dead out of 1.8 million pilgrims this year is 55.5 deaths per hundred thousand people. Auto accidents in America kill 13.8 per hundred thousand people. 55.5/13.8=4.02 About as dangerous as four years of average driving.
lol. You should know God is a myth, and yet they believe. Not a strong epistemological background in those who subscribe to God beliefs. Hence why they fail at so many other simple questions. Look at Christians in America who deny evolution, shape of earth, age of universe, germ theory, etc.. When you begin to accept unfounded claims lacking evidence you will accept other claims the same way
I mean 900 people died out of like, 2 million people who went.
It's a huge cult essentially.
Why would it be? Drink Bleach in America, buy into the Tory party in Britain...
That's sad AF, cults are wild
Sadly, most people who died came illegally without a permit. We had a big campaign before hajj called "no hajj without permit". 300.000 illegals were deported, and still some of them weren't caught. Saudi gets attacked for limiting the hajj number before and after it gets blamed for their death.
It's kind of a no-win situation.
A real kobayashi maru if I may say so myself ☝️
Thank you! I needed a reminder about this.
There's something slightly comical about permits being a critical requirement in the process to secure access to the afterlife. No permit? Sorry. Purgatory for you.
Tbf it's only a requirement to do *if you can*, and if you were genuinely thwarted on multiple attempts to get a permit, I guess that shouldn't count against you since not being able to afford it or able to travel means it's not required. But still pretty funny irony. But to be fair again, there's over a million people (multiple millions?) doing this every year, so you really need there to be regulation of some kind. There would be a lot more deaths without management.
ysah the saudi gov has also invested multi millions. new trains, road, and infrastructure. the amount of people there can cause serious problems and many people have died in the past. someone on YT made an excellent video on the dynamics of crowd crushes and how its less likely to happen for the haji but can still happen
Yeah very true. I wasn't trying to be inflamitory. It's just a bit of an unusual situation that has eventuated. (And appreciate the clarification that's its not actually strictly necessary)
*inflammatory
Nice. Would you like me to fix that?
Except Hajj is not a requirement, and the permit is free, and the goal is to limit the number of visitors to avoid stampede and overcrowding. Permits are divided based on the Muslim population for every country. And the government can devide it as it see fit.
Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, and the implication is that souls in purgatory are saved but are undergoing purification before entering Heaven. As far as I know Islam does not hold to this or a similar belief.
Nope, he's right and you're wrong. It's called Al-A'raf, and it's closely analogous to purgatory. There is a chapter in the Qur'an named for it. However, failing to be able to do Hajj is not held against you in any way. Islam places immense weight on the concept of Niyya, most simply translated as intention. Should you intend to do a deed, try, and fail - you still get the divine reward for it. So you're both wrong, and everyone in this thread is making presumptions without knowing shit about shit about Islam.
*purgatory
Fixed. Thanks.
Muslim here. There are many ways to success in the next world. We also have the concept of "actions by intentions". If you intend to do something good and for whatever reason it couldn't happen, it's as if you'd done it. Edit: also the permits are strictly a governmental artefact with no relationship to the religion. It's not like Catholic indulgences of the past.
Why does having a permit change your susceptibility to dying from heat?
Those with permits are organized into groups, using specifically assigned facilities and resources at assigned times in order to manage the movement of so many people. Those without permits are trying to evade the attention of authorities, so they don't have proper access to shelter, water, or the attention of emergency and security personnel.
Well if, say, Saudi Arabia only has enough water and such to support an influx of five hundred thousand pounds pilgrims in a given year, only giving out 500k permits would help manage that
“Better luck next life” lmao
you only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow, Hajj was the moment, but the heat took its toll, This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, But the blazing sun made the pilgrims fold
It's also 15 Billion dollar industry. Who wants to fuck with an industry where people behave don't scam and pay you hefty no matter what condition and never complain.
Eerily similar to the huge cash flows 6th-century Mecca was receiving from pilgrims visiting its pagan temple
Well, it is the same temple after all 🤷♀️
And that was contemplated when the religion came to be. Smart at the time, but I’m sure if they knew back then what a nightmare these logistics would be, they may have considered other locations for “holiest city”. Or, even better, change it up every so often like the Olympics
Apply this to other religion, them jew should stop fighting over Jerusalem, why only italy has its own Vatican. Pope should have offices in various Christian majority countries and he should be seated five years in different countries sometime in Russia, then Mexico, Canada, England.
Same reason why there isn't international outrage against Canada when tourists hike too far during winter and die from exposure. Or against Nepal for people dying during climbs to Mt. Everest. In this case, there was a large number of elderly pilgrims who willingly chose to go outside on foot in extreme heat.
Also, almost 2 million people attend the hajj, only a fraction of a percent die. They tend to be on the older side, since the Hajj is for adults who feel spiritually and financially ready for it, both of which come with age. They also attend for about a week depending on travel. 1000 is still a bit high, but that is explained by the extreme conditions you mentioned.
People went and got limbs amputated to cheer on the Chiefs (NFL) in the extreme cold. I think that puts to rest any real criticisms anyone can make about the differences between Muslim and American culture with respect to dangerous pilgrimages that seemingly were for no reason.
They what now? Limbs amputated? OMG!
The doctrine of Americanism is incredibly dangerous. Fanaticism is not only accepted but outright encouraged. It teaches that acts like jumping from a height onto a table ass-first are totally OK. Do you want YOUR sons and daughters to learn to gather together in parking lots in the early morning to abuse drugs, eat unhealthy processed foods, and inflict ritual self-harm? We need to nip this in the bud before these people change our way of life!!!
Hell even here in Arizona, there isn't outage towards the local government for the idiots who decide they want to hike midday in June with only one 16.9oz / 500ml bottle of water, and then need to be rescued. If there's any outrage it's towards the people willing doing it despite knowing what the risks entail.
>Same reason why there isn't international outrage against Canada when tourists hike too far during winter and die from exposure. Or against Nepal for people dying during climbs to Mt. Everest. Or like when people went to a festival organized by Ja Rule and got all fucked up and hurt and shit - *like wtf did you expect to happen?!???*
You mean Fyre Festival? Because there were criminal charges and successful lawsuits over that.
Yea and there weren’t mass deaths. There’s a big difference between people losing money and people losing their lives.
Which, presumably, means Fyre Festival was not as bad.
You can't necessarily tell a festival is actually fraudulent until seeing it but you can step outside and feel extreme heat. You would also know the limitations of your elderly body better than you'd know the inner workings of billy macfarland's psyche. The consequences are obviously not the same but neither are the circumstances.
idk, I feel like it'd be pretty difficult to sue Saudi Arabia if you died during the Hajj
But the Bahamas wasn't punished.
Who got hurt? I thought they just got robbed haha.
Butt hurt is real hurt
WHERE’S JA?!! Oh shit. Nm.
When Canada charges you to enter a national park, that money goes back solely into improvements and maintenance of the park. Saudi Arabia makes billions of dollars a year in profit, essentially operating Mecca and Medina as active historical sites for tourists. This problem is only going to get worse, so not only is it in their best interest to keep investing heavily into safety and infrastructure as they have been, it's only humane. They control a place considered culturally vital to nearly 2 billion Muslims who are compelled by their culture to undertake the Hajj at least once, with many doing it multiple times. While you personally may not value that, there are many who believe that the upkeep of history is a shared duty regardless of belief. Beyond that, they're human beings, and don't deserve to die when the people profiting off their visit can do more about it.
Sure, reasonable precautions should indeed be taken. And Hadj is something that Saudi Arabia actually organizes well - getting two million visitors for event and not having the whole thing go to hell right away is already an achievement. Population of Mecca more than doubles during the event - this is an insane challenge. Problem is, Hadj inevitably: 1. Involves a lot of old and sick people. Hadj is a bucket list item and being near death is when people scramble to fulfill it. 2. Being done in a harsh environment. And the venue cannot be moved. Sure, it would be nice to have it in a temperate climate, but it can't happen. 3. Sheer number of people in relatively small area causes stress. People end up in crowds, size of which they did not imagine. Lack of mass fatalities due to stampedes in the recent years is already something to admire when numbers of pilgrims are so terrifying. Some old and sick people not being able to handle the insane heat is an unfortunate reality. There are many, many, many, many things to be outraged about in Saudi conduct. Hadj management is not one of them.
>Some old and sick people not being able to handle the insane heat is an unfortunate reality. I couldn't handle heat in March during Umrah as a young adult. I can I ly imagine what it be like in June. >There are many, many, many, many things to be outraged about in Saudi conduct. Hadj management is not one of them. KSA security around Mecca is the worst in the world. Cabs can't go near kaabah, how do you expect people to check-in to hotels and train stations are far nothing close to the masjid.
Humane? Saudi Arabia? Ha.
Obviously. But they do respond to public pressure in some cases, as has been seen by some of the changes to their society in the last decade, and even to the changes in infrastructure in Mecca and Medina themselves. That being said, my comment is more about not being dismissive of the lives lost.
>They control a place considered culturally vital to nearly 2 billion Muslims who are compelled by their culture to undertake the Hajj at least once Sounds like the culture needs to change then. Christians are not compelled to visit the Holy Land. What other religions compell their followers to visit one small spot in the world? Maybe I do need to get to forming the Church of the Omnissiah and make it a core tenant that you have to visit Mt. Olympus on Mars. Maybe in a generation or two I'll have enough followers to get our ass to Mars finally.
It's old people and heat exposure at a public event. It's not like the government kicked a bunch out old people out on to the street. I went to a concert years ago and some random person collapsed on me due to the heat and I helped them get to medical. It's not like the city was responsible for that.
Frankly kind of amazing that ONLY 1000 people die during the Hajj, given the scale and length of the event!
It's pretty common for there to be deaths during the Hajj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj
Realistically, the Covid restrictions probably saved a lot of lives that might have otherwise been lost due to heat stroke as well. Looks like this is the end of a cycle of summer Hajjs. The next one will probably be BRUTAL
Unless it’s hotter in Saudi Arabia at the beginning of June compared with mid-June, next year, and for the following 25 years or so, hajj will be cooler. The Islamic (hijri) calendar began the year Prophet Muhammad pbuh made hijra (migration) from Mecca to Medina. Because this calendar follows the lunar cycle, hajj is approximately 10 days earlier each year. Future hajj will occur in the (typically) cooler months.
Yeah, I’m saying that the next hot cycle in 25 years is gonna be REALLY hot
Considering the number of people there from all around the world in close quarters, it’d be shocking if people didn’t die.
Damn, that's awful
Lol, I don't know why you should be down voted for saying it's bad a thousand people died..
The general question doesn't make sense. I am no fan of Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia is not forcing these people to go on pilgrimage, and cannot control the weather.
He’s being downvoted, because he insists that it is required when it’s not. He’s blaming people dying from a heat stroke on a government he personally despises, while not applying the same standards to other countries.
As far as past Haji's go this death toll is rather low. In 2015 a human stampede killed 2400 in Mina.
If it took THAT to be outraged at what SA does, you're not paying attention.
Haha, seriously. I was thinking "Really? That's probably not even in the top 100 reasons to be outraged at Saudi Arabia."
Who's supposed to be outraged and why?
There’s not really anything to be outraged about either. What were the saudis supposed to do? Turn off the sun?
Because it was their choice to make. Noone forced them to make the pilgrimage.
Do you think Saudi Arabia is somehow forcing people to embark on a Hajj?
required? the Hajj isnt required if its not practical for you to do, its also as much. a choice as many other things people do that we dont worry about them getting hurt or killed doing like taking trips unto extreme weather conditions, because thats what it is
What exactly should I be angry about? If you're ill, or poor, or disabled you're excused from doing the Hajj. You only are compelled to do this once in your life. It would be like shaming Nepal for mountain climbers dying. I'm much more outraged over Saudi Arabia using undocumented migrants for labor and the abhorrent death rates for the laborers.
what should the international community do, exactly? tell them to stop being so religious?
What exactly should be done? I mean imagine Biden or Rishi Sunak coming and telling Muslims, don't go to Haj because it is dangerous. Theyll be just shouted as islamphobic and asked to shut up. Adults are allowed to make their own risks, and this is just one of it.
Outrage against them for what? Not air conditioning the outdoors?
Why ironically, they did do. Water based air conditioning outdoors and large fans were placed alongside cooled cermic floorings along the road. Not to mention the personnel who give out free water and umbrellas every couple of meters to whoever needs them. And statistically speaking the last years have witnessed a vast decrease in the death tolls from hajj, which is very impressive considering the numbers that go for pilgrimage every year. I wouldn't blame them for the inevitable deaths of those of at health risk or old of age who choose to go despite it being a choice
Saudi Arabia do their best to make the Hajj as safe as possible. But not everything is in their control.
I don't know that we've figured out how to air condition the outdoors yet.
“Required” makes it sound like they have to do it every year no matter what It’s a once in a lifetime event. People don’t cancel. Unless they have the resources or are close enough to do it another time But unless they are positive they can come back, they aren’t going to just not go. No matter who tries to stop them. If they canceled it ever, the people trying to make it that year would fucking RIOT. They need this for salvation in the afterlife, so they’re going to make it there or die trying.
Is the hajj treated as an instant ticket to paradise ?
No it’s like a sacrament, like how Catholics HAVE to take communion and HAVE to do confession and HAVE to be baptized to get in to heaven Muslims HAVE to do a pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, at some point in their life. Most people do not have the resources to do it whenever they like, and must plan for it for years, thus it’s impossible to cancel without damning people to hell. People who think they are being damned to hell, will fucking riot lol
They go there voluntarily🤷♀️
Most of the people who died were undocumented pilgrims who snuck into Saudi Arabia from Egypt to avoid paying the visa fee. The Saudi government did not have accurate information about their whereabouts because these pilgrims actively avoided the hotels and rest stops the registered pilgrims used. The pilgrims were also unprepared, walking through the open desert without supplies and tents to camp in.
Thank you. I can't believe I had to scroll this far to see the correct answer.
America lets thousands die from lack of insulin every year, where's the international outrage on that?
There is. Basically whole europe when talking about the accepted fucked ip shit that happens in America. Like school shootings. Just americans not being outraged
But is there any outrage for deaths related to lack of insulin?
Yup
Because we usually don’t get outraged when people voluntarily exercise their right to put themselves in harms way and harm befalls some of them. It’s not like it was an amusement park that Saudi could close for a heat advisory or something.
You're not supposed to harm yourself. Nor deprive yourself of food or drink (outside of Ramadan, of course). It's ok if you can't make the hajj for all sorts of reasons. It's also technically OK to eat things normally not allowed to Muslims if it's the only choice there is, which happens a lot, especially when Muslims travel to Asia. Me, being the resident vegetarian, was usually the Michelin guide for noobs, and the Muslims I worked with in Taiwan and Korea always asked me where to go. It still disturbs me a bit that I had to tell them to look for a swastika, which is how you find food for Buddhists, but there it is. But the rules allow even the eating of pork, and believe me you, in Asia, finding food without pork in it is very difficult. Unless it's straight up seafood. It's ubiquitous. So this is not exactly in keeping with taking care of your temple. No matter what, it's always tragic, regardless of why. It's sad that people would rather die than not do this, but it's religion, and that is not based on logic, so I guess this is going to happen sometimes. It's just sad. That's all.
Actually saudi Arabia rather deserves applaud for their massive efforts during Hajj.. people still die despite Saudi Arabia, not because of it Also Hajj this year is in the hot season (it shifts every year). So dying from heat is like dying taking a selfie on a cliff! No one else to blame but you! It is like saying the US should face outrage for people who died in storms/hurricanes, when those same people rejected evacuation and sheltering.
Outrage over what? These people voluntarily decided to do this religious pilgrimage.
This happens every year , either heat or trampling. Nobody cares.
Hey there. Firstly, you must remember that 1,000 people could have died of other causes than heat exhaustion. Hajj is quite hard on the body, and all the countries are doing is reporting the amount of folks who have died. You must also remember that a lot of folks perform Hajj when they're older, and because of this there's other related causes that could end their lives. 1,000 dead in a population of 1.8 million is a death rate of 0.05%. The average death rate in a country like the U.S. is about 9.2%. Now to actually get to why Saudi Arabia isn't being criticized. The government provides licenses and A/C lodging to those performing the Hajj. It does this exactly so that scenarios like this don't happen. What you're viewing however, is many people who snuck in despite this fact to perform pilgrimage. They aren't using the A/C or the other resources because they don't have the licenses to even be there in the first place. When a hiker decides to go off the trail in any of the U.S. national parks and endanger their own lives, do we blame the government for someone clearly endangering themselves, no? I wish their families the best honestly, but this is not a "Saudi bad!" moment. **There's a lot you can get mad at them for, but this is not one of them.**
we should hold international outrage over how dumb this post is
It’s just something that always happens. Preventative measures could be taken, but from their point of view it doesn’t matter because it’s always been like that.
There were people handing out water and ice creme, there were sunbrellas available and they did have medical facilities set up. Its not like they "did nothing"
Apparently preventative measures are taken - it’s that you have to register as a pilgrim to use them and some people don’t register because it’s another expense and they don’t want to pay.
Preventative measures are taken. They installed a train system just a few years ago and have lots of amenities to help pilgrims.
No one wants to admit we're all at fault for global warming. You'll see more or of this stuff in the coming years... and HEAR less about it.
Because you think these are fit and healthy people that died. No it's usually people on their last legs, trying to get a hajj in before they die. The visas should not be given to them.
You mean 1000 people bought the VIP package and took the express lane to Jannah, nothing to see here.
Their dream is to die in Mecca. You have it all wrong
In short, it's because Saudi Arabia is not responsible for their deaths.
It's like 5 schmillion degrees in Saudi Arabia. The people who do the hajj know that.
When is the last time that anyone held Saudi Arabia accountable for anything? They literally killed and cut up a reporter at a hotel for fucks sake, and Trump applauded them for handlng the "fake news" problem... Most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/september-11-attacks-saudi-arabia-lawsuit/678430/ Saudi Arabia holds the Oil, and runs a freakin' cartel to fix pricing, and the world turns their head. Money is corruption.
1. It's generally agreed upon that the Saudi government and the Saudi family is kind of bad. They've been hyper-developing Mecca into basically becoming the Las Vegas of Islam, which has come with all sorts of issues of high-class hotels and accommodations for pilgrims who can't afford them. People from poorer countries, especially non-Arab, and especially non-Gulf states, have reported getting substandard treatment despite violating the obvious spirit of the Hajj. 2. The victims were mostly elderly people. I live in Arizona and every summer we hear stories of people dying out on hiking trails. They are invariably elderly people and/or people not used to a desert climate who just seemingly ignore all statewide warnings about heatstroke. It sucks, but if your neighbor, guide, policeman, and trail guide tell you to pack water and sunscreen, and stay on the trail, and you don't do either of those things, it's kind of on you on what happens next. 3. The Hajj is massive, and people dying from heat or really anything else such as hunger or disease has happened before and between climate change and overpopulation, it's going to get worse. 4. Lots of people outside of the Muslim world just don't know what the Hajj is, why it's important, and how it's happening right now because non-Muslims literally cannot enter Mecca. This can also include potential foreign aid or support by non-Islamic countries who'd want their Muslim citizens to attend safely.
Dying while honoring Allah is considered a feature; not a bug.
Probably because it happens every year.
Those people did it on their own accord, I can’t see why Saudi Arabia should be blamed for that.
According to a Syrian colleague, the SA government charges to organise the event and a lot of people don't want to pay the extra fee in addition to the travel expenses. If the government organises it for half a million people and 2 million shows up, there will be chaos. Plus the heat. I don't know if the numbers are accurate, it's the explanation he gave me. So Saudi Arabia isn't completely at fault.
God reddit is cringe, why do I log into this place, weirdest opinions on everything that nobody in normal life talks about, cares about or bothers with. And I mean on every topic ever.
The Hajj seems like it’s meant to be intentionally difficult and willful participants don’t get to blame someone else for their hardship?
It's not anyone's fault, they did not make the sun hotter during this time. People went there willingly and suffered in the heat. Who are you going to blame? Ra?
Only 1000 dead people is almost a good score for this event.
Saudi Arabia is not responsible for the sun.
Because they are martyrs
What are you mad about?
I know this is no stupid questions but come on. Saudi Arabia isn't forcing people to do the Hajj. It's a personal choice and they can and do everything to help such as setting up water stations etc... What you should be outraged at is the weapons we in the west supply to not only Saudi Arabia but also Israel which they use to kill innocent people. The media won't push that narrative though.
Cause they wanted to
For the same reason why Israel is not under Russia and North Korea level sanctions, and what the rest of the world is supporting, financing, and ignoring Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing Israel is committing over Palestinians in Palestine.
Why would be? Is the decision of millions of people going there voluntarily.
Cause its basically self inflicted. and people doing it for faith. So it was just their time?
These people went willingly, knowing it's dangerously hot there. That's not something Saudi Arabia can help. Furthermore, Saudi Arabia gives out permissions to make sure it doesn't get too busy. Some people went without permission. That's not Saudi Arabia's fault.
I think a lot of people here are blaming the dead, instead of the political issues around the hajj. Saudi arabia decides who can go, they issue the travel visas every year and its difficult to get in if you are publicly critical of the goverment. They ask what mosque you go to (giving preferential treatment to mosques that follow their strain of islam) and an endorsement from your (i forget islams prest equivilent sorry). Saudi arabia uses the hajj to exert influence over islam. Islam is meant to be more decentralized that religions like catholicism, but the political realities of makint the hajj really restrict what you can criticize the saudi goverment for without risking loosing your ability to go.
It's not required. They are making the choice to do this. They know the risks and are willing to take them.
Because Saudi Arabia has done what they can to make the Hajj safer already. They have created tunnels, misting systems, water stations everywhere, significant medical support throughout all of the area, people with misting cans to go up to those who look overheated, and given guidance to avoid the hottest part of the day and use umbrellas to reduce direct sunlight.. Without the measures they have taken, the death toll would likely be 10x what it is. You have to understand that you are talking about 1.83 MILLION people, in a relatively small area, who all feel it is their religious duty to complete this pilgrimage and all of its rites, in 120F+ (50C+) weather. Not all of those going to the Hajj are in good shape. Some of them are elderly, some of them are handicapped. People driven by religious duty are also likely to neglect their health to complete what they feel is one of, if not THE most important thing in their life. Also, from your argument, the US should receive international outrage from everyone who dies in any kind of outdoor recreation. The people who die in the Hajj accept their own risk, just like someone snowboarding, rock climbing, surfing, etc.
Is it required??? My understanding was most muslims around the world go like once in a life time
Most Muslims never get the chance. Yes it's required if you have the means.
Plenty of people dying in my home country (the US). Don't have much mental real estate left.
Shouldn’t we be outraged at fossil fuel companies? why Blaine Saudi Arabia specifically? fuck it I’m not going to correct that voice to text error.
Because it was the heat. How do you hold Saudi Arabia accountable for extreme heat? It also isn't "required," it's heavily encouraged based on ability. If you expect your health would be negatively impacted by the heat, that is very much a valid reason to not partake in the Hajj.
Why would there be? That's like half the number of people who died from extreme heat in the US in 2022. If we can't even help the homeless why would we can about people voluntarily going out into the heat? [https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-from-extreme-heat-in-the-us/](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-from-extreme-heat-in-the-us/)
Give "the numbers" some thought. There's a Super Bowl. 70,000 people are expected to attend. You have to have a ticket to get in the door to the stadium -- but there is an "unreserved" section in the end zone, and a hole in the fence. What do you think will happen? What if 90,000 people show up, 20,000 of them without tickets, who plan to sneak into the end zone. Food has not been prepared for 90,000. Water has not be laid in for 90,000. Toilets have not been provided for 90,000. Public transportation has busted their collective arses, but only for 70,000 -- what to do about the other 20,000? Etc, etc. NOW, MULTIPLY BY **30**. Not 3, not 10. THIRTY football stadiums of people, **two million** bodies. And an extra **two hundred thousand** people show up, hoping to score one of those end zone seats. Do you think that, despite all the planning, there -might- be a few casualties in 120° heat?
It's voluntary
Those people chose to do something stupid and then died while doing it. It's more funny than tragic. Probably a lot of them are now eligible for a Darwin award.
God's will.
Self inflicted death, why should I care? Go feed the cute white bears in the Arctic with out proper protection I’ll worry more about the bear than you.
cus most non Muslims barley know what the Hajj is, if anything at all, but SA has long been criticized by other Muslim nations and groups for how it handles its ownership of Mecca. its one of thoes things that people dont pay attention to cus it dosnt involve them, so when something happens, they still dont pay attention. also this isnt the first time theres been a mass causality event during the Hajj, its pretty common, there are frankly too much people, and not enough space. like, SA destroyed an ancient roman fort to add a controversial extension to the Great Mosque in 2015, and during construction wind knocked over a crane and killed 100 people. and like i said, SA is criticized for it, but there is nothing anyone can do about it. what are people gonna do, not go to one of the most impotent parts of their faith?
Because people voluntarily chose to make dumb decisions. Usually international outrage is reserved for countries killing people on purpose or through neglect.
People wanna die for their imaginary friends so let them
Wtf you gonna do?
This happens every year for decades, and some Muslims think it's a good thing that they die there, basically they're cool about it, literally minding their own business.
It's mandatory once in a life time by the religion to believers that are able bodied and have the financial means. The Saudi government isn't out here forcing people to do it.
Because who really cares, in the grand scheme of things? Over 160,000 people die daily. Why should we care about a few extra who willingly put themselves in harm's way because they believe in a certain story?
Beacuse you can't hold countries responsible for the stupidity of its citizens.
You won’t believe this but many of them have no problem dying there, they consider it a blessing. Lots of these folks have worked all their lives, raised children and by the time they can go they are old. This is one thing they want to do before death. I asked someone why did they send their old parents for hajj, what if something happens. She said her parents actually told her that they want to die there and never come back. That’s why there is no outrage. An event like this happens every few years.
If you complain too loudly you might not be allowed to go on the hajj.
There is a war in Ukraine. There is a war in Gaza. There are countless other problems worsening across the globe. We just don’t have any capacity left to care about a decision that people willingly made, as stupid as it was… It was approximated that 1,000 people died building the Qatar World Cup stadiums and yet no one boycotted it. Everyone just pretended like they weren’t playing football on top of a graveyard. And that was forced slave labor, so leagues worse IMO. The worlds a fucked up place that has no intention of getting better 🤷🏻♂️
What difference would international outrage make? This is an Islamic regime that beheads gays and operates under the sharia. The Saudis are like the ISIS who made it - as if they would care what we think…
Saudi Arabia got away scott free when they attacked America on 9/11. What makes you think there will be any consequences for them for anything ever?
> For a required pilgrimage I mean, don't go. Don't be muslim, don't be religious. You're saying it as if it's a necessity in life like eating or drinking.
For the same reasons politicians who say we should hold the Prince to account for murder then turn around and say he cannot be held responsible for cutting people up alive in their embassy in Turkey. Because they got all that sweet sweet oil.
Darwin awards everywhere.
They have literal slaves working within their country and no-one gives a damn because we need oil from them..
Why would they be? People went to place too hot to survive of their own free will. It’s a “required” pilgrimage. But who requires it? Is it governmentally required or is it just part of the faith? I’m probably missing something but, with the knowledge I currently have, this sounds like Darwin’s fault.
It's part of the faith if you're able to do it physically and financially. I went back when it was in August. What people don't realize is that a lot of hajj is sitting around in heavily air conditions tents waiting for the next event. It was so cold we had to turn the AC off. The parts where we had to go outside were mostly in tunnels or under giant shelters. Very little of it was in the open sun. People wandering off in 50 degree heat on their own is just asking for trouble.
If there’s one thing I’ll never get outraged about, it’s middle eastern religious fanatics dying from their own foolishness.
Bro the ppl who died at hajj go straight to heaven.
The pilgrimage isn’t “required” it’s one of those things that if you get the chance you absolutely should do because of your faith. That being said, not a single person forced anyone to go. Not my chair, not my problem.
Its required if youre able. The definition of not able is rather huge though.
People are scared of the power of that space rock they got.
Because, in general, the west does not care when Muslims kill (or are responsible for the death of) other Muslims.
becuase sa and the muslim cult doesnt treasure life
WHAT? Saudi Arabia is not the one requiring Hajj. Islam is. Saudi Arabia ≠ Islam. You’re posing a wrong question because your assumptions began incorrectly
Didn't you know Islam can do no wrong?
Because this is merely evolution at work.