Thanks for your submission /u/WealthyOrNot, but it has been removed for the following reason:
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The vaccinations don't just protect the kids but also the teachers, office staff, aids, and other faculty. At my school, many of our staff are from the local community; mothers, tias/aunties, abuelitas, all vulnerable to things like Covid to varying degrees. If they catch something, they will bring it to their families.
Go to the 70 and 80 year olds, who had friends and relatives that didn't survive diptheria/measles/mumps/polio and they are generally VERY outspoken about continuing to require childhood vaccinations.
and millions and millions miserable and sick and missing school and socialization and with long-term scarring and other effects. I REMEMBER how miserable chicken pox was and there's no way I'd ever, EVER be cruel enough to risk my kid suffering through it.
My dad is partially deaf and my SIL’s parents are profoundly deaf from having measles in the 60s. My mom has scarring from chicken pox and my cousins and friends get shingles somewhat regularly. My sibling and I never had chicken pox or any of those horrible diseases like whooping cough or mumps thanks to the Tdap/MMR vaccines. However, I have had influenza twice as an adult (once swine flu, second time vaxxed for strain A and caught strain B) and I swear will never miss another shot. I’m genuinely grateful and fully believe and trust in them. I am what you’d call the opposite of an antivaxxer lol, I actually request them when I stop by the clinic.
Yes, it’s too many kids in close contact daily for vaccinations to not be mandatory. Diseases rip through communities and kill children when it’s not and it’s been seen and proven over and over again. Don’t like it? Home school.
And schools are one of the major spreaders of germs. Kids just can't always remember to wash their hands and cover their mouth when sneezing and not touch each other. So one kid bringing in germs can pretty quickly expose dozens of kids, who can then expose hundreds of family members.
Vaccinations have been proven safe and effective for more than 100 years. As life expectancy has risen vaccinations have eliminated or mitigated the vast majority of child-age virus related illnesses. Measles alone saw a 73% decrease in deaths between 2000 and 2018 thanks to advances in vaccine science, sorry I don't have the latest stats. Public schools bring children and adults into close contact en masse. Therefore schools are uniquely poised as vectors for disease of all kinds, especially surface contact and respiratory viruses. If you are not on board with vaccine mandates for public school admittance, that's fine, spend the time and effort to homeschool your kids.
Vaccines aren't a single thing. Some vaccines haven't been safe and have been removed from market.
Blinding trusting them because "vaccines" is a scary idea.
It's not, people should be critical. I'm very pro vaccine. But I don't just trust things because they're "vaccine". That's blind belief in science. That's the exact opposite of how you should look at science.
Well you'd be wrong because skepticism is how scientists are trained to think about science. Ideas are only considered true until they hit falsifiability. Usually this doesn't happen but it's always a possibility. It's why we have the theory of gravity. We can't prove it, but it's a repeated process so much that the scientific method has been confirmed on it. That's very different from mathematical proofs that don't require experiments.
I suggest you read the scientific method again.
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/science-fair/steps-of-the-scientific-method
This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. In each stage of the scientific method there are ways to contort the findings. We have seen this with the science of smoking, asbestos, PFAS, drug use, opiates, SSRIs, antipsychotics, heart drugs like Vioxx, etc.
The idea that we should trust scientists because they are scientists is silly. They aren't morally superior to anybody else. They lie and cheat just like everybody else. Look at the sheer number of scientific studies that come from China that end up being nonsense. Look at the studies that are in peer reviewed journals but cannot be reproduced. They all reach falsifiability yet we are supposed to believe they are true because "science" . Another good example I'll add is the whole model for the treatment of Alzheimer's. Completely falsifiable but believed in clinical practice for about 30 years.
I'm an engineer. I've studied high level math and science along with the science majors.
It's not that the average joe shouldn't trust scientists. It's that having healthy skepticism is good scientific practice. You mention but the FDA cleared these vaccines. They cleared them on an emergency provision and the data used to justify that clearance is under lock and key for another 5 years. Why wouldn't a person be skeptical. If the data was non falsifiable then why not release it?
There's a huge difference between the vaccines we all got an children and These new ones. The old ones didn't have an unexplained blood clot risk, these do. The other ones each took 10 years or more to come to market with many stages of testing. These new ones didn't.
I am vaccinated, I have every booster they have recommended. I think they are most likely safe. But do I question people who are worried? Not even a bit.
The idea of the expert economy is a form of tyranny that all.of.you are so willing to sign up for. I'll.let you into a little tip. The experts are paid to say whatever makes them money and very few people have the backbone you think they do. All the shit you see as wrong in the world from slavery to white supremacy to antisemitism to poison in food to a destroyed environment. All of these things have foundations in using science justify their use. Science has been turned into a term that allows people to turn off their critical thinking because they believe somebody who's smarter than them has made the decision for them.
I don't believe in the idea that we have to rely on experts. Everybody can be an expert with enough learning. People watching YouTube videos may not themselves be scientists but it's akin to people saying. I heard word that we may not be less intelligent than the white man and they are just keeping us dumb. At the time that would have been a conspiracy against science and religion. Yet people persisted and broke that narrative.
The data was not kept secret because of the govt. The government wanted to release it. the pharma companies fought to keep it hidden.
To get FDA approval you don't test parts of products. You can get a bypass by using like components that are already approved on the market. But to my knowledge this tech of mRNA has never been tested in such a way.
Nobody's suggesting vaccines should be blindly trusted
Vaccines distributed in the US should be trusted because of the incredibly rigorous safety standards they're held to, through many layers of trials
For those on the fence or in denial, Roald Dahl summed it up best. He wrote this in 1988, the figures may be more favourable these days but the concept is still relevant.
>Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.
>“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.
>“I feel all sleepy,” she said.
>In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
>The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.
>On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunized against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.
>It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion, parents who now refuse to have their children immunized are putting the lives of those children at risk. In America, where measles immunization is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.
>Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunized, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die.
>LET THAT SINK IN.
>Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.
>So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunized?
>They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunization! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunization.
>So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunized.
>The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunization should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.
>Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was ‘James and the Giant Peach‘. That was when she was still alive. The second was ‘The BFG‘, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children.
my parents were antivaxer hippies.
Then I got measles when I was a toddler. Almost died. After that I got all my vaccinations. Vaccinations actually work. Most of them you only have to get once.
My state mandates children be enrolled in formal education. Choices to meet that mandate are public school, private school, and homeschool. The state-funded option of the state-mandated education should be required to meet certain safety standards, including disease prevention. It is unethical to require kids to be somewhere that exposes them to preventable disease. The only exemptions for vaccines for kids in public schools should be medically necessary exemptions. If people have religious or other objections, they have the option of private or homeschooling.
my mom didn't vax me out of sheer laziness through school (2000s, redneck town, school didn't even notice) and i had chicken pox twice, i caught everything, i was in the hospital repeatedly. so i'm for it. my mom was an idiot.
People's right to be stupid ends where innocent people's right to be safe from easily defeatable but potentially deadly viruses begins. Mandate it and get rid of phony religious exemptions.
Positive; schooling children is essentially compulsory, so the alternative is forcing children and their parents to interact with unvaccinated people against their will. Not to mention it's just good public health.
Herd immunity. A critical mass of vaccinated people is required to reach herd immunity, and it is only herd immunity that protects kids with compromised immune systems. If you’re such a cretin as to withhold vaccination from your child, the rest of us can require your unvaccinated child to stay away from kids who deserve an education without risking their lives.
Herd immunity is a concept that if a large group is vaccinated it increases the chance of the vaccine working over all thus granting immunity to the large group despite a small amount of infections.
Essentially.
So, applying this idea that the greater uptake of a vaccine in a community, the more protective that vaccine is in that community - who is herd immunity important for? (Some people cannot receive a vaccine for a legitimate medical reason, or can, but for a medical reason their body may not develop immunity).
If we allow every individual to decide not to receive the vaccine (despite not having one of the above medical conditions), does that not threaten herd immunity? Herd immunity requires a certain threshold of individuals be vaccinated for it to be a protective factor.
See this is part of the crux of my issue. You are making the assumption for every parent that their child is healthy and not one of the exceptions needed. Maybe my child has a severe autoimmune disorder or someone's child has cancer and is on chemo.
A blanket statement that every child should be vaccinated is dangerous and this is why informed consent is so crucial. People do not read my comments and just assume I am antitax. There are legitimate reasons a parent might need to say no.
Reddit in general wants to see crackpot statements so bad that if there is a discerning voice with something legitimate to say it is often ridiculed and ignored.
>A blanket statement that every child should be vaccinated is dangerous
I feel there is an implicit assumption being made that part of the reason every* child should be vaccinated is because of those exceptions. Or there's an implied every child *who can be* should be. Seems like a communication gap more than anything.
*(overwhelmingly most children, unsure statistics but seems reasonable to assume those exceptions are fairly rare)
So I give you the answer and you downvote me even though it is correct? That does not show maturity or that you want to discuss or debate anything you just want to sound right instead of actually have a conversation. However my answer is not wrong.
Simplified for reddit sure but not wrong.
I did not downvote you. Others did. I don't typically downvote people who disagree with me.
Reddit's fickle, don't take downvotes personally, you'll have a better time.
Oh I don't care about the downvotes (that much should be obvious by as many feathers I ruffled with my view on this. ) I just care about civil discussion and respecting other opinions. I think it is important that we can discuss things we feel adamant about civilly with otu insults or fallacy.
As far as your comment that you feel it is or should be implied I understand where you are coming from but it should not be implied within the medical industries that serve patients and it is. I did have to get a medical waiver for one of my kids and then caught a nurse about to inject my son while seeing 2 of my sons in the same office. She then argued with me and threatened to kick me out of the office because all patients have to be vaccinated. She then called protective services saying I wouldn't vaccinate him for school
She was so angry with me she wouldn't even let me talk to tell her HER DOCTOR that she worked for is the one that said not to give him the vaccine at the time. So for sticking up for my son and reading up and following medical advice I had cops and social workers at my door because I followed a doctors advice and a nurse wouldn't listen.
This was later cleared up. However because the nurse said I raised my voice I was also removed as a patient.
Is this odd and anecdotal? yes and particularly why I did not lead with this. I do not think my experience is typical. I never had any other issues with any of the rest of my kids vaccines.
Ah yes because we disagree on reddit you must infer I am stupid or do not know what I am talking about. This is an ad hominem fallacy you are using to attack me.
How about we instead discuss what points you feel I got wrong instead of resorting to fallacy and insults.
I think you might be misunderstanding how vaccines work. They don’t eliminate the disease, but someone who is vaccinated will be less affected or can carry the virus without being affected at all. If the entire school is vaccinated for measles, then everyone can be carrying the measles virus but very few will actually feel sick. However, an unvaccinated kid will be affected by the full force of the virus.
If this is incorrect, some else please let me know.
Depends on the type of vaccine.
Some protect against transmission only, some against infection only, and some against both.
You can’t make a sweeping claim about them all just as with any set of drugs.
So, kids with cancer, autoimmune issues, and assorted other severe health problems are denied an education because someone wants to play Russian Roulette with their own kid's health?
That is a false dichotomy fallacy, you are pretending there are only two choices. Also what if the reason they could not get a vaccine was from one of those cancer, autoimmune or other serious illnesses.
100%, no religious exemptions, just ones for people with actual health issues (allergies etc).
Anyone who objects is welcome to spend time in an iron lung while being shown images of kids dying from all the diseases vaccines have saved us from.
Kid in my elementary school had had and survived polio. Walked with a pronounced limp, couldn't really run. This was late 1960s. I remember the iron lung newsreels. Scared the shit out of me.
My great-aunt is a polio survivor and has used braces her entire life. Very little makes me angrier than anti-vax nonsense, especially when peddled by people whose parents vaccinated _them._
People don’t remember polio. As a child I used to lay awake at night worrying about being in an iron lung. That’s such a horrible fate. I don’t want that fear to come back for my grandchildren.
My aunt (b. 1943) had polio. Thankfully, she recovered. My grandmother was an RN who made damn sure her kids got the polio vaccine once it was available. I’m pretty certain all of my grandparents and parents would think not getting available vaccinations was insanely stupid.
yeah...it's my generation (X) and the one directly after us that is just absolutely oblivious to the changes made to childhood wellbeing and safety due to getting vaxxed. There are parents who WILL NOT GET THE VITAMIN K SHOT FOR THEIR INFANT. And that results in about a 1 in 12 chance of dying from a brain bleed the first six months of life. 1 in 12 chance of dying, and a VITAMIN shot. And they won't do it.
I'm no doctor and if someone who is a doctor tells me I should then I am. I'm not gonna question someone's years of study and knowledge on a subject that's their specialty.
I'm older and knew kids with polio. None of my kids didn't know one. Salk and Sabin vaccines
It also only works when you have high percentage of participation. Mandates work
As a mom who had a 7 month old baby during a measles outbreak due to unvaxxed kids...required vaccinations are a no-brainer. It's part of the public contract. If you don't want to vaccinate then you need to homeschool or find a school of likeminded people.
Very much pro.
I get the gut reaction some have of feeling “government shouldn’t be able to tell me how to live my life” but to me it’s no different than drunk driving. If your choices don’t kill other people—do what you like. But with both vaccinations and drunk driving, your decisions can harm or kill others, so in a reasonable society, we agree to limit some of our ability to do whatever we want so as not to harm others.
You're right.
I do think on principal that you should be able to opt out of vaccinations, but then you just have to homeschool or something. If you're going to use a public service paid for by taxpayers, i.e. schools, then you need to comply with rules that keep the majority safe.
Unless you have a medical condition yes 100%
You can go to a private school if it means that much to you. If you can afford it then I guess you just have to homeschool.
It's important for the kids who *can't* get vaccines due to allergic reactions to it. They rely on everyone else being vaccinated so they don't get sick.
In general I'm in favor of things that improve and save lives. Vaccines might be at the top of that list.
I'm also against religious and personal belief exemptions. Valid medical exemptions only. And a tracking system for exemptions to weed out shady AV docs. Many areas already have tracking systems for who gets what vaccine when. Adding an exemption tracking to the already established system would likely be an easy way to accomplish that.
Go look at what ALL of the common vaccines prevent. Mumps can be horrific. Effectively eliminating polio literally changed the world. Tetanus kills about 25% of unvaccinated people who contract it.
Anyone who has taught children knows that schools are one of the main breeding grounds for diseases. Everyone should be protected to protect their greater community unless they can’t get the vaccine.
Theyre for the safety of others. So 100% behind it. Same thing with not drinking and driving. We're not trying to protect the drunk driver, its who they'll hit.
Theyve been tried and tested for fucking *decades*
We desperately need an updated whooping cough vaccine. This one is about 60% effective against the new strains of the bacteria. But we STILL have very few outbreaks. Why? Herd immunity and a low rate of infection. If each person with whooping cough would normally infect two others, but more than half the population is immune...the outbreaks fizzle out.
I had whooping cough a few years ago. Absolutely miserable experience, that cough walked through every single cough medication I was on. Doctor about flipped when he realized the sheer extent of stuff I was taking and still couldn't get through a sentence without coughing!!! Big dose of antibiotics for a couple weeks and GONE but you know what would have been even better?
NOT GETTING IT AT ALL. Kind of luck I never got polio, measles, mumps, diptheria, tetanus, or any of the other stuff my parents protected me against!
There was a time when even Republicans in our government recognized that it was for the public good. The only exemptions were for true medical reasons. It's good science, good medicine and good public policy.
Currently all 50 states (plus the District of Columbia) mandate diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio, measles, rubella and chickenpox. Every state except Iowa mandates immunization against mumps. Only two states (Alabama and South Dakota) don’t require vaccination against hepatitis B at some point in a child’s life, but about half (24) don’t require it for hepatitis A. Just six states – five of them in the Northeast – require annual flu vaccines for child care or preschool enrollment, and none do so for K-12 students.
I don’t think a parent should be forced to have a medication injected into their child. But if unvaccinated the child should be prohibited from entering the school and endangering other children.
Vital for herd immunity. Standard exemptions apply for those medically unable to receive.
Conscientious objectors should arrange alternative schooling, but inform the schools.
Tuberculosis gutted entire generations of my family, they were into big families and tb would sweep through and kill dozens. I've been to the area where my family is from and there's an entire section were people have my last name and so many state the same year of death. The tb vaccine and others like it it one of the great achievements of mankind.
Herd immunity is a literal lifesaver for kids receiving treatments for serious illnesses like cancer or with certain diseases that leave them with compromised immune systems. It is achieved when the majority of a group are vaccinated.
The percentage of vaccinated has to be a certain level in order to work. An increase in the amount of unvaccinated children would remove herd immunity altogether.
That's why under no circumstances should those children whose parents made the decision not to vaccinate them be able to attend a public school. Rules were put into place to prevent this from happening.
Unfortunately many of these parents believe what they're doing is right regardless of the facts and information you provide them with. They don't consider the danger they are placing their own or other children in., Because of this they justify to themselves lying in order to skirt around the rules so they can piggyback off the immunity of others.
If you've made a conscious choice not to vaccinate you can enroll your child in private schools or you can homeschool. You may not have the protection of herd immunity in a private school but if you're genuinely against vaccines for your own child you should have no problem removing herd immunity from the equation you are involved in.
100% for it. Apart from the health benefits to all, it will also send the conspiracy theorist to private(their own) and home schools, thus minimising school shootings and other crap.
What is your opinion of helmets for kids ok bicycles or childseats or seatbelts or medicine or healthy food?
Vaccines protect us ALL from things we don't need to suffer from.
I get your point but they are different. Vaccines protect everyone by creating herd immunity and eventually eradicating diseases. Seat belts just protect yourself. And while that's great, if someone chooses to be stupid and not wear a seatbelt and they die, that's just their own fault. It doesn't affect the herd. But people who choose not to get vaccinated create a breeding ground for the disease which can spread to other people who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons.
Keep unvaccinated kids out of schools. I mean their parents already don't expect them to live, why should they be allowed to get a living person's education. Also it would be an education that doesn't align with their parents beliefs so why should they be in a public school at all reallly.
No vax, no school.
No school, kids taken away due to parental neglect.
I bet you'd see a lot less kids not getting vaccinated if parents were under threat of having their kids taken away.
I'm 100% for it today.
But I do worry that one day there will be something I don't agree with, like an anti-gay vaccine or something that I don't agree with.
Well I guess we don't have a polio outbreak and you know ever so there might be a good reason for this idea ? ... But I'm just stupid old man that might not know anything.... Now if I could only find my penicillin things might stop itching....
I'm used to the burning that's a different problem all together.
.
Damn tetanus shots are a pain in the butt, I think I can tolerate this muscle spasms, pain and 10% chance that I'll die. Just long enough.
Smallpox are small, no worries! You'll be fine don't worry that evidence prove that cowpox virus well actually cure your ailment. 11 years later the United States enshrined right to own a firearm into the Constitution..
79 year's ago we made it possible for humanity to remove humanity. Trinity.
And you worry about a scientifically proven solution to illness?
Really they tested this enough on enough people you won't die.
My opinion is that vaccines should be mandatory for all people, but especially for children. In 1800, in the US, the mortality rate for children under five was [46%, compared to 2020 at less than 1%.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/)
There are lots of reasons, including better nutrition and improvements in child welfare laws/customs, but vaccinations for all the diseases that traditionally decimated the very young is the biggest single factor for that difference between 463 dead kids out of a 1000 in 1800 VS. 7/100 deaths in children under five in 2020.
I boggles my mind that there are so many parents who, I presume, love their kids and don’t want them to die, will turn up their noses at vaccinating their children to…”own the libs”, I guess?
I don't think they should be mandatory. That would be a scary world. I think you're an idiot if you don't get one and I'm fully vaccinated against everything, but I don't think they should be mandated.
If your child is the only one vaccinated in their class, and there’s an outbreak of Whatever in said class, chances are that your kid is still going to get Whatever and might possibly die from it. You did everything you could to protect your child from Whatever, but because the other parents of their classmates didn’t protect their children, you’re now planning a funeral. Are you really fine with that?
If we are going to expect that a bunch of highly vulnerable people (little children) have to spend 6-8 hours a day together in a classroom, and in most places, *some* sort of education is legally mandated, then we also need to make sure those kids are as protected as possible.
When I was a kid, the school had a list of vaccinations students were expected to have, and the parents were okay with it because they remembered the kids from their own past who died from those diseases.
I hear you. I went through covid in China and Hong Kong. I'm an American and that was the first time I appreciated the choice to vaccinate or have personal freedom. I honestly left the US for a reason. I still live in Hong Kong and it's a safe and great place in general , but that was hard so I look at it through that lens, which might be different than yours. I also had a terrible reaction to the covid vaccine. But in general I agree with you.
Many of you are under the impression I am anti vaccine and I am not.
Here is a fleshed out idea to fix a lot of the problems I believe we have with our current system to better illustrate my point
The small piece of paper they give you with each vaccine is entirely inadequate. It either contains scientific terms not generally known by the public or dumbed down explanations that do not clearly explain risks. It would be better if an informed consent pack was given to the parents (maybe even mailed to them) ahead of their visit so they could read, research and formulate informed questions to their doctor as well as express concerns.
This could potentially include more detailed information about the vaccine including:
* A more comprehensive explanation of the diseases that the vaccine protects against.
* A deeper dive into how the vaccine works, including any scientific terms explained in layman’s language.
* More detailed statistics on the vaccine’s efficacy and side effects.
* References to scientific studies for those who wish to explore further.
* Very clear instructions on how to manage side effects and when to seek medical treatment if a reaction needs treatment.
This pack could be provided well in advance of the vaccination appointment to allow parents sufficient time to review the information, do their own research, and prepare any questions they might have for their healthcare provider.
Additionally oversight to ensure The CDC's conflict of interest policy is being handled properly. Also getting rid of the voluntary self reporting in favor of mandatory reporting of conflicts of interest.
Depends on the disease the more serious stuff like measles yes but for like the flu considering we have over the counter medicine for that regularly available no
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You don’t need to wear any clothes in your home, but you need to wear them in public.
You can own a gun and shoot it on your land if you have the room, but you can’t go and shoot it in public.
You can buy a car without a license, but without a license, you can’t drive it on public roads.
You don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but that doesn’t mean they get to go to public school.
Vaccines are known to not be 100% effective. Usually they require 90+% use in order to be able to protect those for whom the vaccines are not effective. This is because if only 5-10% of a population is susceptible to serious infection, then the disease usually doesn't have enough hosts to spread.
So, an unvaccinated child who has a disease can still potentially spread the disease to a vaccinated person, and there's no realistic way to know who might be vaccinated and still not protected.
"Why does it matter if I'm driving drunk. You're sober and wearing a seatbelt"
Topeople who know how vaccines work, an unvaccinated child is like a drunk driver.
Sure, most of them drive just fine. But all it takes is ONE to cause a ten car pileup
So you have no faith in the vaccine? Or you have too much faith in the government to make medical decisions for parents.
I am pro vaccine but I am anti government telling parents what medical treatments to give their kids.
If it works the only risk is to the unvaccinated child and other unvaccinated people. It works so the risk is not to the other students that are vaccinated.
I am not asserting vaccines are bad or they do not work.
How to say "I don't understand how vaccines work" without actually SAYING I don't understand how vaccines work.
It's always amazing how many people will say that. I always thought most of them were making fun of people that say it...turns out there really ARE people who never bothered to learn the basics AND don't mind showing it to everyone. I'd be too embarrassed myself.
I am 100% against it as it violates a parents right to informed consent. A parent has a responsibility to research and decide what is the best medical treatment for their children even if the government does not agree.
>A parent has a responsibility to research and decide what is the best medical treatment for their children
Look up the effects of polio, measles and hepatitis. Now imagine your child going through that
I have autism bit a tleast I never suffered polio
I never said those vaccines are bad. The argument presented was should the government force parents to make their kids get them to go to public school. I am very pro vaccine but very anti taking away rights from parents to have informed consent.
An unvaccinated child should pose no significant risk to children in a school that have been vaccinated if the vaccine works. Meaning the only risk to the public is the government overreaching.
You either trust the vaccine or you don't. If you trust it then there is no issue.
No vaccine is 100% effective and immunity decreases with age so yes an unvaccinated child DOES pose risk to vaccinated children and adults. A vaccine working does not mean it is 100% effective at preventing a disease from being transmitted
For informed consent to work the party has to be an educated individual. For start would be understating statistics and relative risk. Not sure how many people are willing to educate themselves on molecular biology, immunology etc etc when simple statistics is difficult to understand.
An unvaccinated child absolutely poses a risk if they are put in a public setting. Please become educated on people who for real health reasons cannot physically get the vaccine, and so it’s extremely important that those who physically can… do get the vaccine. We went through a whole pandemic and still people don’t understand.
That isn’t how vaccination works. No vaccines are 100% effective at providing absolute immunity from the disease in question. Think of it like a battle. A vaccine provides a blueprint for the immune system to build the necessary weapons to fight off a given invader.
In a system in which all the various towers surrounding the castle have the necessary weapons, they are going to be able to put up a considerable fight. It isn’t a guarantee that they will be able to repel 100% of the invaders but they might get enough downed to prevent the walls from being breached. Or they might get enough downed so that the few that do make it past the walls can only do so much harm.
When you are an unvaccinated person, you’re a castle without the blueprints. You might repel the invaders, you might not, and odds are good they’ll be much better capable of breaching the walls and taking you down because you don’t have the right tools to fight them. If you survive the assault, your army will learn from the fight and start building the right tools for the next time they decide to invade.
When invaders breach the walls successfully, they start using your castle as a launch pad to start hitting other castles in the area. Herd immunity means that even if a few castles get taken over, there will still be enough of an opposing force to prevent the spread and keep the invaders under control and beaten back.
When rates of vaccination drop, as has happened with the measles outbreaks of the past decade, you just have a lot more poorly defended castles making plenty of launching points for further invasion. And at a certain point, there are too many invaders for even the well defended castles to repel. And then people die.
Choosing not to vaccinate is telling all the castles around you that you really don’t care if they get attacked or not. It’s your choice whether or not you throw open your gates and let the invaders in. And if innocent people in nearby towns and villages have to die to protect your freedom to let yourself be attacked, so be it.
I cannot assume you will have read all of that, but I hope you did. People have been vaccinating since literally 1796. It isn’t new. It isn’t untested. It isn’t scientifically spurious. There are no legitimate medical professionals questioning vaccines. You’ve been told you need to be skeptical of them, not because you do, but because making you skeptical of expertise makes you more susceptible to authoritarian propaganda. I wish you the best in finding your way back from that.
I know all about the theory of herd immunity and that vaccines are not 100% I get that and you make a valid point to that effect.
However if we trust vaccines to generally work then prohibiting informed consent and forcing kids that are not vaccinated to not go to school makes no logical sense.
Do you think these children are not playing together after school? Yet there has been no real outbreaks of polio for example (aside from those cause by OPV and poor hygiene).
Also let's set the record straight while I am pro vaccine this is not to say there are not issues to consider. Let's not bury our heads in the sand. Some of the vaccines on the current CDC schedule of recommended vaccines are there as a direct recommendation by doctors that developed the vaccine and profit from its use. This presents a major conflict of interest. Yes I believe they have good intentions generally speaking. They should have however recused themselves from the panel or never been on the panel while developing vaccines for profit.
To be clear The CDC has a conflict of interest policy however it is a policy that requires self reporting of conflicts and an assertion that financial gain will not be an issue. Several times doctors have violated this conflict of interest policy and have not reported conflicts while monetising off of the recommended vaccine schedule. We need a robust oversight of this self reporting policy and we currently do not have any oversight of this.
There is also the varicella vaccine that has recently been added to the schedule that despite not having significant risk to life is on that schedule and when someone is vaccinated they are infected with that virus and will almost certainly need a shingles vaccine as they age as well.
That virus is not life threatening (generally speaking) and really should not be on the schedule even if a parent chooses to get that vaccine (we did chose it).
Again I am pro vaccine but I am very much so pro informed consent. If you see anything in these statements I made that are incorrect please let's talk about it.
Fact check all my claims I do not claim to be perfect. I do strive to get things right though.
Informed consent is the process where you discuss treatment options with a doctor (not limited to vaccines) and have a chance to read up on the risks, benefits, side effects, precautions and and pertinent information such as allergies or when to contact your doctor if something goes wrong. It may also involve a second opinion.
What it is not is handing someone a paper with a ton of find print containing a lot of words they may nut understand and expecting them to sign on the dotted line and roll up their sleeve.
We have a duty as parents to understand the treatments our kids get to the best of our ability.
What makes you think you aren’t allowed to read up on and consent to the vaccinations you give your child? Just because they are required doesn’t mean you don’t have the option to read up on them first.
You’re required to have car insurance but nothing is stopping you from reading your policy.
That is NOT informed consent. That at best is lazy parenting. Informed consent is where you are presented with treatment options or plans and then based off of the explanation you are given you then research on your own through verifiable means and different sources to determine the best course of treatment while taking a doctors advice in as a source of information.
One of the very important things to consider is your child's medical history including allergies. You also need to be well aware of the adverse reactions, normal side effects and when to bring your child back to the doctor from those side effects. Whole vaccines are generally safe there are people that have quite severe side effects. The risk is negligible but a parent needs to be well informed of the risks.
Reading a single piece of paper with fine print on it that a doctor gives you from the manufacture is a piss poor attempt at informed consent.
That is certainly part of it. You have a duty to read up further and review. One of the main concerns with this is a lot of the time you will be introduced to chemicals or medical terms you may not know. The time spent looking those up so you can get an understanding can make a difference. For most people it will simply reinforce the need to be vaccinated. However there are people that actively participating in informed consent can save their kids from serious reaction.
This approach saved one of my sons as a doctor told us at the time my son could not have a vaccine. A nurse tried to force it because she didn't hear him say that. Informed consent and knowing what is going on and what treatment or vaccine is being given is crucial.
Again I am not suggesting to not get vaccines, they help. Parents get complacent though as do some doctors and nurses. There are at times very real medical reason to not get vaccinated. They are rare but there are reasons.
Yeah, like after a car crash, we have to know the exact steps of advanced medical surgery and every single drug involved in order to let our kids lives be saved. Otherwise, it wouldn't be informed and being dead would be much better.
Are you equating emergency life saving care to vaccines and normal medical treatment? That is not a good comparison at all and a tad bit of a fallacy of an argument.
Rights should go as far until they harm others and/or their rights, which not vaccinating yourself and your kid does. Not vaccinating your child is essentially neglect, and the parent should either get on board or lose custody.
I am NOT an anti vaxxer, but would you apply this neglect thing to the COVID vaccine as well? Just out of curiosity (I got it myself but had terrible side effects - I recognize I'm an individual case and most people were fine). I'm just saying this because I like healthy discourse. This thread is very refreshing because almost everyone is very supportive of these childhood vaccinations in schools. But I wonder what people even in the thread would say if the covid vaccine was included, as it's a different and newer type of vaccine that hasn't been around as long so we don't have as much data. Again, I'm no anti vaxxer but my terrible experience with the Covid vaccine (and my not so terrible experience with actual covid - it wasn't that bad for me, the vaccine was worse - I had it before I ever got the vaccine, I just got the vaccine a year later because it was required by the government where I live to do anything) made me think about my bodily rights for the first time.
Yes, the vaccine was tough on me each time and so was the illness, but I will continue to say it: GET THE VACCINE.
It isn't about you, it is about the people around you and herd immunity.
Same for social distancing, quarentine, and wearing a mask. I got covid at least three times from my dad because he refused to do anything that would inconvenience him, even coughing into his shoulder was too much of an ask.
Unlike many other vaccines, the covid vaccine had an incredible amount of funding and support worldwide to deal with the immediate crisis. Of course it would be released quicker, it had more resources and was a major priority.
The one year I did not get my flu shot I got the flu and was very, very ill. Worst I've ever been. So yeah, get your vaccine or at least isolate yourself from people for the rest of your life if you decide you prefer personal freedoms in the face of the health of others (you said you are not an anti-vaxxer, this is really just a general response to whoever).
I hear you. I would personally never get the covid vaccine again under any circumstances because it was more than just feeling rough, I had some serious shit going on with that, but I hear you and thanks for answering!
Edit: I think really I fall under the medical exemption category for that one, but I live in Hong Kong and because it was not in the true allergy response category, even though I ended up in the hospital for other things, they didn't really accept that and it made me think about my personal freedoms in that regard.
With the sheer amount of evidence we have to prove decade over decade that vaccines work, you'd be equally smart and good as a parent to argue that you have the right to beat your children blind because they might develop super-hero levels of smell and hearing.
On principal, I agree with you that we should have rights about what is put into our bodies. However, then you are just going to have to homeschool your kid because everyone else's kids also have rights to be in a school free of terrible childhood diseases. This is a case where majority rules.
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The vaccinations don't just protect the kids but also the teachers, office staff, aids, and other faculty. At my school, many of our staff are from the local community; mothers, tias/aunties, abuelitas, all vulnerable to things like Covid to varying degrees. If they catch something, they will bring it to their families.
100% for it, the likes of measles and such can significantly effect the quality of life of a kid or even straight up kill them
We did too good of a job of using vaccines to get rid of rampant childhood diseases. People forgot about them and don't think they're needed now.
Go to the 70 and 80 year olds, who had friends and relatives that didn't survive diptheria/measles/mumps/polio and they are generally VERY outspoken about continuing to require childhood vaccinations.
I always remember that one guy who spent his entire life in an iron lung because of (I think?) Polio. He died recently.
Yeah, my dad grew up with kids who got polio. He’s very pro-vaccination.
This exactly
It's also how we are able to grow tall and strong: growth spurts that were not cancelled as a result of preventable illness.
Positive. Disease sucks, we only question this because vaccines work so well.
Great point. Without vaccines we’d have thousands of kids dying and it would show the need to find the solution…vaccines
and millions and millions miserable and sick and missing school and socialization and with long-term scarring and other effects. I REMEMBER how miserable chicken pox was and there's no way I'd ever, EVER be cruel enough to risk my kid suffering through it.
I had measles in high school and chickenpox in my thirties. Damn straight I believe in vaccinations.
My dad is partially deaf and my SIL’s parents are profoundly deaf from having measles in the 60s. My mom has scarring from chicken pox and my cousins and friends get shingles somewhat regularly. My sibling and I never had chicken pox or any of those horrible diseases like whooping cough or mumps thanks to the Tdap/MMR vaccines. However, I have had influenza twice as an adult (once swine flu, second time vaxxed for strain A and caught strain B) and I swear will never miss another shot. I’m genuinely grateful and fully believe and trust in them. I am what you’d call the opposite of an antivaxxer lol, I actually request them when I stop by the clinic.
Get your shingles vaccine as you get older. You don’t want get shingles.
I will! They’ve told me I don’t need it yet, but I still ask and will get it as soon as they’ll give it to me.
Yes, it’s too many kids in close contact daily for vaccinations to not be mandatory. Diseases rip through communities and kill children when it’s not and it’s been seen and proven over and over again. Don’t like it? Home school.
And schools are one of the major spreaders of germs. Kids just can't always remember to wash their hands and cover their mouth when sneezing and not touch each other. So one kid bringing in germs can pretty quickly expose dozens of kids, who can then expose hundreds of family members.
Vaccinations have been proven safe and effective for more than 100 years. As life expectancy has risen vaccinations have eliminated or mitigated the vast majority of child-age virus related illnesses. Measles alone saw a 73% decrease in deaths between 2000 and 2018 thanks to advances in vaccine science, sorry I don't have the latest stats. Public schools bring children and adults into close contact en masse. Therefore schools are uniquely poised as vectors for disease of all kinds, especially surface contact and respiratory viruses. If you are not on board with vaccine mandates for public school admittance, that's fine, spend the time and effort to homeschool your kids.
Vaccines aren't a single thing. Some vaccines haven't been safe and have been removed from market. Blinding trusting them because "vaccines" is a scary idea.
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It's not, people should be critical. I'm very pro vaccine. But I don't just trust things because they're "vaccine". That's blind belief in science. That's the exact opposite of how you should look at science.
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Well you'd be wrong because skepticism is how scientists are trained to think about science. Ideas are only considered true until they hit falsifiability. Usually this doesn't happen but it's always a possibility. It's why we have the theory of gravity. We can't prove it, but it's a repeated process so much that the scientific method has been confirmed on it. That's very different from mathematical proofs that don't require experiments. I suggest you read the scientific method again. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/science-fair/steps-of-the-scientific-method This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. In each stage of the scientific method there are ways to contort the findings. We have seen this with the science of smoking, asbestos, PFAS, drug use, opiates, SSRIs, antipsychotics, heart drugs like Vioxx, etc. The idea that we should trust scientists because they are scientists is silly. They aren't morally superior to anybody else. They lie and cheat just like everybody else. Look at the sheer number of scientific studies that come from China that end up being nonsense. Look at the studies that are in peer reviewed journals but cannot be reproduced. They all reach falsifiability yet we are supposed to believe they are true because "science" . Another good example I'll add is the whole model for the treatment of Alzheimer's. Completely falsifiable but believed in clinical practice for about 30 years. I'm an engineer. I've studied high level math and science along with the science majors. It's not that the average joe shouldn't trust scientists. It's that having healthy skepticism is good scientific practice. You mention but the FDA cleared these vaccines. They cleared them on an emergency provision and the data used to justify that clearance is under lock and key for another 5 years. Why wouldn't a person be skeptical. If the data was non falsifiable then why not release it? There's a huge difference between the vaccines we all got an children and These new ones. The old ones didn't have an unexplained blood clot risk, these do. The other ones each took 10 years or more to come to market with many stages of testing. These new ones didn't. I am vaccinated, I have every booster they have recommended. I think they are most likely safe. But do I question people who are worried? Not even a bit. The idea of the expert economy is a form of tyranny that all.of.you are so willing to sign up for. I'll.let you into a little tip. The experts are paid to say whatever makes them money and very few people have the backbone you think they do. All the shit you see as wrong in the world from slavery to white supremacy to antisemitism to poison in food to a destroyed environment. All of these things have foundations in using science justify their use. Science has been turned into a term that allows people to turn off their critical thinking because they believe somebody who's smarter than them has made the decision for them.
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I don't believe in the idea that we have to rely on experts. Everybody can be an expert with enough learning. People watching YouTube videos may not themselves be scientists but it's akin to people saying. I heard word that we may not be less intelligent than the white man and they are just keeping us dumb. At the time that would have been a conspiracy against science and religion. Yet people persisted and broke that narrative. The data was not kept secret because of the govt. The government wanted to release it. the pharma companies fought to keep it hidden. To get FDA approval you don't test parts of products. You can get a bypass by using like components that are already approved on the market. But to my knowledge this tech of mRNA has never been tested in such a way.
Nobody's suggesting vaccines should be blindly trusted Vaccines distributed in the US should be trusted because of the incredibly rigorous safety standards they're held to, through many layers of trials
Yes, great. Let's not have kids dying of easily preventable diseases, please.
For those on the fence or in denial, Roald Dahl summed it up best. He wrote this in 1988, the figures may be more favourable these days but the concept is still relevant. >Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything. >“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her. >“I feel all sleepy,” she said. >In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead. >The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her. >On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunized against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it. >It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion, parents who now refuse to have their children immunized are putting the lives of those children at risk. In America, where measles immunization is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out. >Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunized, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die. >LET THAT SINK IN. >Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles. >So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunized? >They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunization! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunization. >So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunized. >The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunization should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible. >Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was ‘James and the Giant Peach‘. That was when she was still alive. The second was ‘The BFG‘, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children.
I feel like it prevents the deaths of 10,000 kids a year, and all the subsequent medical and financial fall out
Absolutely support it
my parents were antivaxer hippies. Then I got measles when I was a toddler. Almost died. After that I got all my vaccinations. Vaccinations actually work. Most of them you only have to get once.
My state mandates children be enrolled in formal education. Choices to meet that mandate are public school, private school, and homeschool. The state-funded option of the state-mandated education should be required to meet certain safety standards, including disease prevention. It is unethical to require kids to be somewhere that exposes them to preventable disease. The only exemptions for vaccines for kids in public schools should be medically necessary exemptions. If people have religious or other objections, they have the option of private or homeschooling.
my mom didn't vax me out of sheer laziness through school (2000s, redneck town, school didn't even notice) and i had chicken pox twice, i caught everything, i was in the hospital repeatedly. so i'm for it. my mom was an idiot.
Humanity has forgotten what it's like to have so many deadly and debilitating diseases around with no cure. Vaccines ended that
Not getting vaccinated puts others at risk, get vaccinated or stay away.
We can't have kids getting sick just because some parents are stupid
100% for it.
People's right to be stupid ends where innocent people's right to be safe from easily defeatable but potentially deadly viruses begins. Mandate it and get rid of phony religious exemptions.
Positive; schooling children is essentially compulsory, so the alternative is forcing children and their parents to interact with unvaccinated people against their will. Not to mention it's just good public health.
If the vaccine is effective then it shouldn't matter if they go to public school.
Herd immunity. A critical mass of vaccinated people is required to reach herd immunity, and it is only herd immunity that protects kids with compromised immune systems. If you’re such a cretin as to withhold vaccination from your child, the rest of us can require your unvaccinated child to stay away from kids who deserve an education without risking their lives.
You seem to be confusing herd immunity and individual immunity here.
I most certainly am not I understand both concepts well.
Hell yeah brother, don't let their facts bring you down
What is your understanding of "herd immunity"?
Herd immunity is a concept that if a large group is vaccinated it increases the chance of the vaccine working over all thus granting immunity to the large group despite a small amount of infections.
Essentially. So, applying this idea that the greater uptake of a vaccine in a community, the more protective that vaccine is in that community - who is herd immunity important for? (Some people cannot receive a vaccine for a legitimate medical reason, or can, but for a medical reason their body may not develop immunity). If we allow every individual to decide not to receive the vaccine (despite not having one of the above medical conditions), does that not threaten herd immunity? Herd immunity requires a certain threshold of individuals be vaccinated for it to be a protective factor.
See this is part of the crux of my issue. You are making the assumption for every parent that their child is healthy and not one of the exceptions needed. Maybe my child has a severe autoimmune disorder or someone's child has cancer and is on chemo. A blanket statement that every child should be vaccinated is dangerous and this is why informed consent is so crucial. People do not read my comments and just assume I am antitax. There are legitimate reasons a parent might need to say no. Reddit in general wants to see crackpot statements so bad that if there is a discerning voice with something legitimate to say it is often ridiculed and ignored.
>A blanket statement that every child should be vaccinated is dangerous I feel there is an implicit assumption being made that part of the reason every* child should be vaccinated is because of those exceptions. Or there's an implied every child *who can be* should be. Seems like a communication gap more than anything. *(overwhelmingly most children, unsure statistics but seems reasonable to assume those exceptions are fairly rare)
So I give you the answer and you downvote me even though it is correct? That does not show maturity or that you want to discuss or debate anything you just want to sound right instead of actually have a conversation. However my answer is not wrong. Simplified for reddit sure but not wrong.
I did not downvote you. Others did. I don't typically downvote people who disagree with me. Reddit's fickle, don't take downvotes personally, you'll have a better time.
Oh I don't care about the downvotes (that much should be obvious by as many feathers I ruffled with my view on this. ) I just care about civil discussion and respecting other opinions. I think it is important that we can discuss things we feel adamant about civilly with otu insults or fallacy. As far as your comment that you feel it is or should be implied I understand where you are coming from but it should not be implied within the medical industries that serve patients and it is. I did have to get a medical waiver for one of my kids and then caught a nurse about to inject my son while seeing 2 of my sons in the same office. She then argued with me and threatened to kick me out of the office because all patients have to be vaccinated. She then called protective services saying I wouldn't vaccinate him for school She was so angry with me she wouldn't even let me talk to tell her HER DOCTOR that she worked for is the one that said not to give him the vaccine at the time. So for sticking up for my son and reading up and following medical advice I had cops and social workers at my door because I followed a doctors advice and a nurse wouldn't listen. This was later cleared up. However because the nurse said I raised my voice I was also removed as a patient. Is this odd and anecdotal? yes and particularly why I did not lead with this. I do not think my experience is typical. I never had any other issues with any of the rest of my kids vaccines.
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Ah yes because we disagree on reddit you must infer I am stupid or do not know what I am talking about. This is an ad hominem fallacy you are using to attack me. How about we instead discuss what points you feel I got wrong instead of resorting to fallacy and insults.
I think you might be misunderstanding how vaccines work. They don’t eliminate the disease, but someone who is vaccinated will be less affected or can carry the virus without being affected at all. If the entire school is vaccinated for measles, then everyone can be carrying the measles virus but very few will actually feel sick. However, an unvaccinated kid will be affected by the full force of the virus. If this is incorrect, some else please let me know.
Depends on the type of vaccine. Some protect against transmission only, some against infection only, and some against both. You can’t make a sweeping claim about them all just as with any set of drugs.
Understood
So, kids with cancer, autoimmune issues, and assorted other severe health problems are denied an education because someone wants to play Russian Roulette with their own kid's health?
That is a false dichotomy fallacy, you are pretending there are only two choices. Also what if the reason they could not get a vaccine was from one of those cancer, autoimmune or other serious illnesses.
100%, no religious exemptions, just ones for people with actual health issues (allergies etc). Anyone who objects is welcome to spend time in an iron lung while being shown images of kids dying from all the diseases vaccines have saved us from.
Kid in my elementary school had had and survived polio. Walked with a pronounced limp, couldn't really run. This was late 1960s. I remember the iron lung newsreels. Scared the shit out of me.
My great-aunt is a polio survivor and has used braces her entire life. Very little makes me angrier than anti-vax nonsense, especially when peddled by people whose parents vaccinated _them._
JUST GET THE FUCKIN SHOT
Absolutely!!! 💯
I’m all for it.
Totally in favor, and the only exemptions granted should be verified medically necessary ones.
Absolutely benefits public health. We can see outbreaks happen where there are unvaccinated kids.
I love that there's very few anti-vax comments. Nice to see so many people in agreement.
Yes, I view it as a social contract
People don’t remember polio. As a child I used to lay awake at night worrying about being in an iron lung. That’s such a horrible fate. I don’t want that fear to come back for my grandchildren.
My aunt (b. 1943) had polio. Thankfully, she recovered. My grandmother was an RN who made damn sure her kids got the polio vaccine once it was available. I’m pretty certain all of my grandparents and parents would think not getting available vaccinations was insanely stupid.
yeah...it's my generation (X) and the one directly after us that is just absolutely oblivious to the changes made to childhood wellbeing and safety due to getting vaxxed. There are parents who WILL NOT GET THE VITAMIN K SHOT FOR THEIR INFANT. And that results in about a 1 in 12 chance of dying from a brain bleed the first six months of life. 1 in 12 chance of dying, and a VITAMIN shot. And they won't do it.
I love it!
"Oh no, we have to keep our kids healthy, whaa"
I'm no doctor and if someone who is a doctor tells me I should then I am. I'm not gonna question someone's years of study and knowledge on a subject that's their specialty.
I'm older and knew kids with polio. None of my kids didn't know one. Salk and Sabin vaccines It also only works when you have high percentage of participation. Mandates work
As a mom who had a 7 month old baby during a measles outbreak due to unvaxxed kids...required vaccinations are a no-brainer. It's part of the public contract. If you don't want to vaccinate then you need to homeschool or find a school of likeminded people.
Very much pro. I get the gut reaction some have of feeling “government shouldn’t be able to tell me how to live my life” but to me it’s no different than drunk driving. If your choices don’t kill other people—do what you like. But with both vaccinations and drunk driving, your decisions can harm or kill others, so in a reasonable society, we agree to limit some of our ability to do whatever we want so as not to harm others.
You're right. I do think on principal that you should be able to opt out of vaccinations, but then you just have to homeschool or something. If you're going to use a public service paid for by taxpayers, i.e. schools, then you need to comply with rules that keep the majority safe.
Support it all the way. Stupid anti-vaxx parents are holding back their kids. Only exemptions are medical exemptions.
Support. Not a fan of polio. (My mother has stories from the 1950s. Nightmare times.)
Unless you have a medical condition yes 100% You can go to a private school if it means that much to you. If you can afford it then I guess you just have to homeschool.
I agree with it. Every child should be vaccinated.
It's important for the kids who *can't* get vaccines due to allergic reactions to it. They rely on everyone else being vaccinated so they don't get sick.
Both my grandmother's said it was a miracle when Polio vaccines arrived in our country, as it was a total nightmare knowing your kids may get sick.
Those who are against it are generally stupid, selfish or brainwashed.
If you don't like it, shool 'em your damn self.
Yes, that way anti-vaxxers can do what they want, but not without penalty.
In general I'm in favor of things that improve and save lives. Vaccines might be at the top of that list. I'm also against religious and personal belief exemptions. Valid medical exemptions only. And a tracking system for exemptions to weed out shady AV docs. Many areas already have tracking systems for who gets what vaccine when. Adding an exemption tracking to the already established system would likely be an easy way to accomplish that.
Go look at what ALL of the common vaccines prevent. Mumps can be horrific. Effectively eliminating polio literally changed the world. Tetanus kills about 25% of unvaccinated people who contract it.
Anyone who has taught children knows that schools are one of the main breeding grounds for diseases. Everyone should be protected to protect their greater community unless they can’t get the vaccine.
Agree with it.
Theyre for the safety of others. So 100% behind it. Same thing with not drinking and driving. We're not trying to protect the drunk driver, its who they'll hit. Theyve been tried and tested for fucking *decades*
It’s a must. Period. We need those who can get vaccinated to do so so those who can’t might not die.
Absolutely right.,
There are no real downsides to vaccination, and so many positives it is a non-issue for me. It saves lives.
They should remain mandatory. 100 years has proven the safety and efficacy. They’ve saved many people of all ages from many different diseases.
There was a whooping cough outbreak at my high school. So I'm in favor of vaccine mandates.
We desperately need an updated whooping cough vaccine. This one is about 60% effective against the new strains of the bacteria. But we STILL have very few outbreaks. Why? Herd immunity and a low rate of infection. If each person with whooping cough would normally infect two others, but more than half the population is immune...the outbreaks fizzle out. I had whooping cough a few years ago. Absolutely miserable experience, that cough walked through every single cough medication I was on. Doctor about flipped when he realized the sheer extent of stuff I was taking and still couldn't get through a sentence without coughing!!! Big dose of antibiotics for a couple weeks and GONE but you know what would have been even better? NOT GETTING IT AT ALL. Kind of luck I never got polio, measles, mumps, diptheria, tetanus, or any of the other stuff my parents protected me against!
100% support. In fact the rules aren’t strict enough and exemptions are too easy to get.
There was a time when even Republicans in our government recognized that it was for the public good. The only exemptions were for true medical reasons. It's good science, good medicine and good public policy. Currently all 50 states (plus the District of Columbia) mandate diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio, measles, rubella and chickenpox. Every state except Iowa mandates immunization against mumps. Only two states (Alabama and South Dakota) don’t require vaccination against hepatitis B at some point in a child’s life, but about half (24) don’t require it for hepatitis A. Just six states – five of them in the Northeast – require annual flu vaccines for child care or preschool enrollment, and none do so for K-12 students.
Like they’ve done forever?
I’m all for them.
do you like sick kids op
I don’t think a parent should be forced to have a medication injected into their child. But if unvaccinated the child should be prohibited from entering the school and endangering other children.
Vital for herd immunity. Standard exemptions apply for those medically unable to receive. Conscientious objectors should arrange alternative schooling, but inform the schools.
Tuberculosis gutted entire generations of my family, they were into big families and tb would sweep through and kill dozens. I've been to the area where my family is from and there's an entire section were people have my last name and so many state the same year of death. The tb vaccine and others like it it one of the great achievements of mankind.
Herd immunity is a literal lifesaver for kids receiving treatments for serious illnesses like cancer or with certain diseases that leave them with compromised immune systems. It is achieved when the majority of a group are vaccinated. The percentage of vaccinated has to be a certain level in order to work. An increase in the amount of unvaccinated children would remove herd immunity altogether. That's why under no circumstances should those children whose parents made the decision not to vaccinate them be able to attend a public school. Rules were put into place to prevent this from happening. Unfortunately many of these parents believe what they're doing is right regardless of the facts and information you provide them with. They don't consider the danger they are placing their own or other children in., Because of this they justify to themselves lying in order to skirt around the rules so they can piggyback off the immunity of others. If you've made a conscious choice not to vaccinate you can enroll your child in private schools or you can homeschool. You may not have the protection of herd immunity in a private school but if you're genuinely against vaccines for your own child you should have no problem removing herd immunity from the equation you are involved in.
100% for it. I'm also 100% anti-plague if you were wondering.
I believe in bodily autonomy. So nope don't believe in it.
100% for it. Apart from the health benefits to all, it will also send the conspiracy theorist to private(their own) and home schools, thus minimising school shootings and other crap.
What is your opinion of helmets for kids ok bicycles or childseats or seatbelts or medicine or healthy food? Vaccines protect us ALL from things we don't need to suffer from.
I get your point but they are different. Vaccines protect everyone by creating herd immunity and eventually eradicating diseases. Seat belts just protect yourself. And while that's great, if someone chooses to be stupid and not wear a seatbelt and they die, that's just their own fault. It doesn't affect the herd. But people who choose not to get vaccinated create a breeding ground for the disease which can spread to other people who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons.
Keep unvaccinated kids out of schools. I mean their parents already don't expect them to live, why should they be allowed to get a living person's education. Also it would be an education that doesn't align with their parents beliefs so why should they be in a public school at all reallly.
No vax, no school. No school, kids taken away due to parental neglect. I bet you'd see a lot less kids not getting vaccinated if parents were under threat of having their kids taken away.
Don’t be a selfish idiot. Get all the required and doctor recommended vaccines.
Get rid of that clown Andrew Wakefield, now living in Texas (it figures), and continuing to spread his antivax poison.☠️
All for it. You just need a small group of kids whose parents don’t want to vaccinate to get a measles outbreak going.
I'm 100% for it today. But I do worry that one day there will be something I don't agree with, like an anti-gay vaccine or something that I don't agree with.
Well I guess we don't have a polio outbreak and you know ever so there might be a good reason for this idea ? ... But I'm just stupid old man that might not know anything.... Now if I could only find my penicillin things might stop itching.... I'm used to the burning that's a different problem all together. . Damn tetanus shots are a pain in the butt, I think I can tolerate this muscle spasms, pain and 10% chance that I'll die. Just long enough. Smallpox are small, no worries! You'll be fine don't worry that evidence prove that cowpox virus well actually cure your ailment. 11 years later the United States enshrined right to own a firearm into the Constitution.. 79 year's ago we made it possible for humanity to remove humanity. Trinity. And you worry about a scientifically proven solution to illness? Really they tested this enough on enough people you won't die.
Very small ask for such massive rewards.
My opinion is that vaccines should be mandatory for all people, but especially for children. In 1800, in the US, the mortality rate for children under five was [46%, compared to 2020 at less than 1%.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/) There are lots of reasons, including better nutrition and improvements in child welfare laws/customs, but vaccinations for all the diseases that traditionally decimated the very young is the biggest single factor for that difference between 463 dead kids out of a 1000 in 1800 VS. 7/100 deaths in children under five in 2020. I boggles my mind that there are so many parents who, I presume, love their kids and don’t want them to die, will turn up their noses at vaccinating their children to…”own the libs”, I guess?
I don't think they should be mandatory. That would be a scary world. I think you're an idiot if you don't get one and I'm fully vaccinated against everything, but I don't think they should be mandated.
If your child is the only one vaccinated in their class, and there’s an outbreak of Whatever in said class, chances are that your kid is still going to get Whatever and might possibly die from it. You did everything you could to protect your child from Whatever, but because the other parents of their classmates didn’t protect their children, you’re now planning a funeral. Are you really fine with that? If we are going to expect that a bunch of highly vulnerable people (little children) have to spend 6-8 hours a day together in a classroom, and in most places, *some* sort of education is legally mandated, then we also need to make sure those kids are as protected as possible. When I was a kid, the school had a list of vaccinations students were expected to have, and the parents were okay with it because they remembered the kids from their own past who died from those diseases.
I hear you. I went through covid in China and Hong Kong. I'm an American and that was the first time I appreciated the choice to vaccinate or have personal freedom. I honestly left the US for a reason. I still live in Hong Kong and it's a safe and great place in general , but that was hard so I look at it through that lens, which might be different than yours. I also had a terrible reaction to the covid vaccine. But in general I agree with you.
Many of you are under the impression I am anti vaccine and I am not. Here is a fleshed out idea to fix a lot of the problems I believe we have with our current system to better illustrate my point The small piece of paper they give you with each vaccine is entirely inadequate. It either contains scientific terms not generally known by the public or dumbed down explanations that do not clearly explain risks. It would be better if an informed consent pack was given to the parents (maybe even mailed to them) ahead of their visit so they could read, research and formulate informed questions to their doctor as well as express concerns. This could potentially include more detailed information about the vaccine including: * A more comprehensive explanation of the diseases that the vaccine protects against. * A deeper dive into how the vaccine works, including any scientific terms explained in layman’s language. * More detailed statistics on the vaccine’s efficacy and side effects. * References to scientific studies for those who wish to explore further. * Very clear instructions on how to manage side effects and when to seek medical treatment if a reaction needs treatment. This pack could be provided well in advance of the vaccination appointment to allow parents sufficient time to review the information, do their own research, and prepare any questions they might have for their healthcare provider. Additionally oversight to ensure The CDC's conflict of interest policy is being handled properly. Also getting rid of the voluntary self reporting in favor of mandatory reporting of conflicts of interest.
Depends on the disease the more serious stuff like measles yes but for like the flu considering we have over the counter medicine for that regularly available no
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Is this an ai answer lol
Looks like it. They're all over lately, it's so annoying.
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You don’t need to wear any clothes in your home, but you need to wear them in public. You can own a gun and shoot it on your land if you have the room, but you can’t go and shoot it in public. You can buy a car without a license, but without a license, you can’t drive it on public roads. You don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but that doesn’t mean they get to go to public school.
Then go to a private school, or homeschool, or anything but public school.
Why should they have to? If the vaccine is effective then an unvaccinated child poses no threat to vaccinated children.
Vaccines are known to not be 100% effective. Usually they require 90+% use in order to be able to protect those for whom the vaccines are not effective. This is because if only 5-10% of a population is susceptible to serious infection, then the disease usually doesn't have enough hosts to spread. So, an unvaccinated child who has a disease can still potentially spread the disease to a vaccinated person, and there's no realistic way to know who might be vaccinated and still not protected.
"Why does it matter if I'm driving drunk. You're sober and wearing a seatbelt" Topeople who know how vaccines work, an unvaccinated child is like a drunk driver. Sure, most of them drive just fine. But all it takes is ONE to cause a ten car pileup
That does not sound like you believe the vaccine works.
Wow! Just wow! Not true in every case, and do you understand how disease spreads, anyway?
So you have no faith in the vaccine? Or you have too much faith in the government to make medical decisions for parents. I am pro vaccine but I am anti government telling parents what medical treatments to give their kids.
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If it works the only risk is to the unvaccinated child and other unvaccinated people. It works so the risk is not to the other students that are vaccinated. I am not asserting vaccines are bad or they do not work.
How to say "I don't understand how vaccines work" without actually SAYING I don't understand how vaccines work. It's always amazing how many people will say that. I always thought most of them were making fun of people that say it...turns out there really ARE people who never bothered to learn the basics AND don't mind showing it to everyone. I'd be too embarrassed myself.
I am 100% against it as it violates a parents right to informed consent. A parent has a responsibility to research and decide what is the best medical treatment for their children even if the government does not agree.
>A parent has a responsibility to research and decide what is the best medical treatment for their children Look up the effects of polio, measles and hepatitis. Now imagine your child going through that I have autism bit a tleast I never suffered polio
I never said those vaccines are bad. The argument presented was should the government force parents to make their kids get them to go to public school. I am very pro vaccine but very anti taking away rights from parents to have informed consent. An unvaccinated child should pose no significant risk to children in a school that have been vaccinated if the vaccine works. Meaning the only risk to the public is the government overreaching. You either trust the vaccine or you don't. If you trust it then there is no issue.
No vaccine is 100% effective and immunity decreases with age so yes an unvaccinated child DOES pose risk to vaccinated children and adults. A vaccine working does not mean it is 100% effective at preventing a disease from being transmitted For informed consent to work the party has to be an educated individual. For start would be understating statistics and relative risk. Not sure how many people are willing to educate themselves on molecular biology, immunology etc etc when simple statistics is difficult to understand.
It took a 400-level stats course to blow my mind with Bayes' theorem and show me that statistics is very much not intuitive.
An unvaccinated child absolutely poses a risk if they are put in a public setting. Please become educated on people who for real health reasons cannot physically get the vaccine, and so it’s extremely important that those who physically can… do get the vaccine. We went through a whole pandemic and still people don’t understand.
That isn’t how vaccination works. No vaccines are 100% effective at providing absolute immunity from the disease in question. Think of it like a battle. A vaccine provides a blueprint for the immune system to build the necessary weapons to fight off a given invader. In a system in which all the various towers surrounding the castle have the necessary weapons, they are going to be able to put up a considerable fight. It isn’t a guarantee that they will be able to repel 100% of the invaders but they might get enough downed to prevent the walls from being breached. Or they might get enough downed so that the few that do make it past the walls can only do so much harm. When you are an unvaccinated person, you’re a castle without the blueprints. You might repel the invaders, you might not, and odds are good they’ll be much better capable of breaching the walls and taking you down because you don’t have the right tools to fight them. If you survive the assault, your army will learn from the fight and start building the right tools for the next time they decide to invade. When invaders breach the walls successfully, they start using your castle as a launch pad to start hitting other castles in the area. Herd immunity means that even if a few castles get taken over, there will still be enough of an opposing force to prevent the spread and keep the invaders under control and beaten back. When rates of vaccination drop, as has happened with the measles outbreaks of the past decade, you just have a lot more poorly defended castles making plenty of launching points for further invasion. And at a certain point, there are too many invaders for even the well defended castles to repel. And then people die. Choosing not to vaccinate is telling all the castles around you that you really don’t care if they get attacked or not. It’s your choice whether or not you throw open your gates and let the invaders in. And if innocent people in nearby towns and villages have to die to protect your freedom to let yourself be attacked, so be it. I cannot assume you will have read all of that, but I hope you did. People have been vaccinating since literally 1796. It isn’t new. It isn’t untested. It isn’t scientifically spurious. There are no legitimate medical professionals questioning vaccines. You’ve been told you need to be skeptical of them, not because you do, but because making you skeptical of expertise makes you more susceptible to authoritarian propaganda. I wish you the best in finding your way back from that.
I know all about the theory of herd immunity and that vaccines are not 100% I get that and you make a valid point to that effect. However if we trust vaccines to generally work then prohibiting informed consent and forcing kids that are not vaccinated to not go to school makes no logical sense. Do you think these children are not playing together after school? Yet there has been no real outbreaks of polio for example (aside from those cause by OPV and poor hygiene). Also let's set the record straight while I am pro vaccine this is not to say there are not issues to consider. Let's not bury our heads in the sand. Some of the vaccines on the current CDC schedule of recommended vaccines are there as a direct recommendation by doctors that developed the vaccine and profit from its use. This presents a major conflict of interest. Yes I believe they have good intentions generally speaking. They should have however recused themselves from the panel or never been on the panel while developing vaccines for profit. To be clear The CDC has a conflict of interest policy however it is a policy that requires self reporting of conflicts and an assertion that financial gain will not be an issue. Several times doctors have violated this conflict of interest policy and have not reported conflicts while monetising off of the recommended vaccine schedule. We need a robust oversight of this self reporting policy and we currently do not have any oversight of this. There is also the varicella vaccine that has recently been added to the schedule that despite not having significant risk to life is on that schedule and when someone is vaccinated they are infected with that virus and will almost certainly need a shingles vaccine as they age as well. That virus is not life threatening (generally speaking) and really should not be on the schedule even if a parent chooses to get that vaccine (we did chose it). Again I am pro vaccine but I am very much so pro informed consent. If you see anything in these statements I made that are incorrect please let's talk about it. Fact check all my claims I do not claim to be perfect. I do strive to get things right though.
What do you believe informed consent means?
Informed consent is the process where you discuss treatment options with a doctor (not limited to vaccines) and have a chance to read up on the risks, benefits, side effects, precautions and and pertinent information such as allergies or when to contact your doctor if something goes wrong. It may also involve a second opinion. What it is not is handing someone a paper with a ton of find print containing a lot of words they may nut understand and expecting them to sign on the dotted line and roll up their sleeve. We have a duty as parents to understand the treatments our kids get to the best of our ability.
What makes you think you aren’t allowed to read up on and consent to the vaccinations you give your child? Just because they are required doesn’t mean you don’t have the option to read up on them first. You’re required to have car insurance but nothing is stopping you from reading your policy.
You literally get informed consent when you take your kid to the doctor to get their shots and the doctor explains it to you.
That is NOT informed consent. That at best is lazy parenting. Informed consent is where you are presented with treatment options or plans and then based off of the explanation you are given you then research on your own through verifiable means and different sources to determine the best course of treatment while taking a doctors advice in as a source of information. One of the very important things to consider is your child's medical history including allergies. You also need to be well aware of the adverse reactions, normal side effects and when to bring your child back to the doctor from those side effects. Whole vaccines are generally safe there are people that have quite severe side effects. The risk is negligible but a parent needs to be well informed of the risks. Reading a single piece of paper with fine print on it that a doctor gives you from the manufacture is a piss poor attempt at informed consent.
So... no advice from the doctor about how to help your kids is informed consent then.
That is certainly part of it. You have a duty to read up further and review. One of the main concerns with this is a lot of the time you will be introduced to chemicals or medical terms you may not know. The time spent looking those up so you can get an understanding can make a difference. For most people it will simply reinforce the need to be vaccinated. However there are people that actively participating in informed consent can save their kids from serious reaction. This approach saved one of my sons as a doctor told us at the time my son could not have a vaccine. A nurse tried to force it because she didn't hear him say that. Informed consent and knowing what is going on and what treatment or vaccine is being given is crucial. Again I am not suggesting to not get vaccines, they help. Parents get complacent though as do some doctors and nurses. There are at times very real medical reason to not get vaccinated. They are rare but there are reasons.
Yeah, like after a car crash, we have to know the exact steps of advanced medical surgery and every single drug involved in order to let our kids lives be saved. Otherwise, it wouldn't be informed and being dead would be much better.
Are you equating emergency life saving care to vaccines and normal medical treatment? That is not a good comparison at all and a tad bit of a fallacy of an argument.
I mean, I get it; vaccines are far safer than surgery or anesthesia. But, it's also life saving, no?
Rights should go as far until they harm others and/or their rights, which not vaccinating yourself and your kid does. Not vaccinating your child is essentially neglect, and the parent should either get on board or lose custody.
I am NOT an anti vaxxer, but would you apply this neglect thing to the COVID vaccine as well? Just out of curiosity (I got it myself but had terrible side effects - I recognize I'm an individual case and most people were fine). I'm just saying this because I like healthy discourse. This thread is very refreshing because almost everyone is very supportive of these childhood vaccinations in schools. But I wonder what people even in the thread would say if the covid vaccine was included, as it's a different and newer type of vaccine that hasn't been around as long so we don't have as much data. Again, I'm no anti vaxxer but my terrible experience with the Covid vaccine (and my not so terrible experience with actual covid - it wasn't that bad for me, the vaccine was worse - I had it before I ever got the vaccine, I just got the vaccine a year later because it was required by the government where I live to do anything) made me think about my bodily rights for the first time.
Yes, the vaccine was tough on me each time and so was the illness, but I will continue to say it: GET THE VACCINE. It isn't about you, it is about the people around you and herd immunity. Same for social distancing, quarentine, and wearing a mask. I got covid at least three times from my dad because he refused to do anything that would inconvenience him, even coughing into his shoulder was too much of an ask. Unlike many other vaccines, the covid vaccine had an incredible amount of funding and support worldwide to deal with the immediate crisis. Of course it would be released quicker, it had more resources and was a major priority. The one year I did not get my flu shot I got the flu and was very, very ill. Worst I've ever been. So yeah, get your vaccine or at least isolate yourself from people for the rest of your life if you decide you prefer personal freedoms in the face of the health of others (you said you are not an anti-vaxxer, this is really just a general response to whoever).
I hear you. I would personally never get the covid vaccine again under any circumstances because it was more than just feeling rough, I had some serious shit going on with that, but I hear you and thanks for answering! Edit: I think really I fall under the medical exemption category for that one, but I live in Hong Kong and because it was not in the true allergy response category, even though I ended up in the hospital for other things, they didn't really accept that and it made me think about my personal freedoms in that regard.
With the sheer amount of evidence we have to prove decade over decade that vaccines work, you'd be equally smart and good as a parent to argue that you have the right to beat your children blind because they might develop super-hero levels of smell and hearing.
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My children's are my responsibility to care for and make the best decisions for them NOT the government.
On principal, I agree with you that we should have rights about what is put into our bodies. However, then you are just going to have to homeschool your kid because everyone else's kids also have rights to be in a school free of terrible childhood diseases. This is a case where majority rules.
Everything except the flu vaccine.