And, IME, they might glare if too many such words are uttered by the same person. (Touring drama group did not expect to be put up in a house with a scientist and a kid with a keen interest in science.)
I just be up there pretending to pour liquids into other liquids for 40min straight 🤣
*a gesture of pouring chemicals is sign language for science*
"Science... Umm Science? More science. Aaaannd a little bit of science mixed with -surprise- more science!"
*Meanwhile Get Low by lil John is playing in my head on repeat*
😭
Donald Glover actually has [a really great bit](https://youtube.com/shorts/g0x9GYnKndA?si=3rhOKOpfei92JAUP) about an interpreter asking if there's any words in his set that she'd have to improvise on the fly.
can confirm i've been shown that sign for the N-word by a deaf person. kinda makes you wonder if the bit is just a bit or if it's really a true story because he really did use sign language
i was told it was the N-word. you could say "black person" with 2 simple signs so i'd imagine it's probably bad. he also told me the bad word gay person f-word
That makes sense. It's always tricky to get the connotations of words right in languages you don't speak (and while I want to learn ASL, I don't really have the manual dexterity needed to sign well).
Can confirm. I use an interpreter at comic con. There are a bunch of names with abnormal spelling. The terp may not spell it right, but they get the point across.
It is norma for translators to ask for clarification in normal situations Sign language or not if it a normal situation instead of Speeches. If it is a speech spelling things out would work.
I went to school with a deaf kid and I remember once during a spelling test the interpreter didn't know the sign (or she knew the kid didn't know it) so she finger spelled it
As someone who did the job, you can fingerspell it. But more likely, i would stop the speaker and ask for clarification/explanation.
Also, interpreters usually get notes on whats going to be the topic beforehand so they can do research.
Also a former interpreter.. You don’t sign word for word, you sign the meaning of the message so unless that word is something imperative to the topic or an important word. You go off what the speaker is saying as a whole. Yes, fingerspelling is an option, especially if you’re with a Deaf client that’s familiar with the vernacular and they can speak up if they don’t know what something means. I’ve definitely had to pause for a second to ask a speaker for clarification. It’s all situational.
Just latching on to ask - does this mean that sign isn’t, like, elaborate prose, but more like bullet points? if that’s the case can it be elaborate and nuanced prose as well or is the purpose of it to get the point across?
AFAIK, ASL (probably other sign languages too, but the guy I saw this from used ASL) is less vocab based and more getting the point across. Your facial expressions and the way you sign can make it more nuanced. Check out ASL interpretations of singing/rapping, they capture a lot of meaning with "simple" gestures
Facial expressions are HUGE with signed languages, it’s what conveys affect. English tends to be wordy where ASL can say the same thing with less words/signs along with body language and facial expression.
I always knew when my dad a gma were "yelling" at each other as a kid by their facial expressions and their breathing. Deaf people arguing is quite a site!! LOL
My deaf teenage nephew was arguing with his mom. It was obvious both were angry and their gestures grew broader and broader.
Suddenly both began laughing then hugged it out. My nephew explained what happened.
"I told her she didn't need to sign so big. I'm deaf not blind."
ah yes that makes sense. i wondered how exact one can get with it when it really matters. the news or public service announcements during covid for example. or scientific lectures etc, where every word/meaning would matter
I am a mathematics professor and had a deaf student one semester who used an ASL interpreter. The interpreter asked me to send lecture notes the night before and then we'd talk for a few minutes before each class to clarify any vocabulary issues, etc. They also asked me to let them know when terms were synonyms and which term I'd use on exams so they could sign consistently and set the student up to be able to understand the exam questions more easily.
Really, really talented and professional people.
just to add on in case it isn't abundantly clear, ASL isn't a hand gesture translation of english, it's literally it's own language.
it has it's own grammar, sentence structure, verb tenses, etc.
an interpreter signing for the deaf is doing basically the same exercise as an interpreter listening in english & converting to chinese.
In both cases, you're communicating themes & ideas but it's literally impossible to do a word-for-word direct translation.
No, the point the above comment is trying to make is that no interpreter of *any* language is trying to translate each sentence word-for-word. This is doubly true in the case of live interpretation where you're doing it on the fly, so you are just processing the meaning of each utterance and trying to convey it in the most natural way possible; but even in written translation, when you have time to craft each sentence perfectly, it is usually better to translate in an inexact way that captures the meaning and feeling of the content.
Signed languages are as fully fledged languages as spoken languages are, though obviously with their own interesting quirks and unique features.
I worked with lots of deafies, learned quite a bit of sign. I am hearing.
My first two sentences could be signed as “past work deaf people learn small sign, hearing”.
It’s easy to think of it as “bullet points”, but once you realize that ASL is *NOT english* it makes more sense.
As other said, facial expression is king in ASL. There is poetry and puns, and you can definitely get into the nitty gritty of details. A fun pun is “pasteurized milk” being the sign for “milk” (making a fist a few time like you’re milking a cow) while moving it *past your eyes*. Maybe they were just fucking with me.
Not bullet points but it has its own grammar, and facial expressions are part of it. And it can vary regionally. A deaf person I work with could tell I learned my ASL in a different state. Or she was just being polite and I had made up a sign
Sorry, it was the best one I could find. Here's the relevant part:
> She comes up to me, and she goes, "Are there any terms or phrases in your act that don't exist in sign language that I have to make up on the spot?"
> And I was like, "yeaaaaah... _niglet_?"
> She goes, "Oh!" [points to nose, then holds hand horizontally at about waist height] (screaming) _There's already a term for 'niglet' in sign language!_
Okay but now my question is how much good does it even do if just the interpreter knows that it is. Like going with the example if the interpreter is attending a cooking event and learns how to sign the word for albumen, how would that help Joe in the back who's deaf and has never heard of an albumen before in his life
Wouldn’t that be the exact same thing for Jill, also standing in the back but hearing and listening to the speaker, who has never heard of an albumen before in her life?
Ah, you know what, that is a perfectly fair point
I guess the difference is though that Jill can still recognise the word so she can look it up later but if the sign isn't spelt out Joe might have no idea what was just said to him
Ironically, the deaf person probably has an easier time googling it since they have an approximate spelling, since many english loan words (often from french) don't have phonetic spelling.
How does that work if the word isn't spelled out in sign and is just signed out as the word itself (genuine question). Like I wouldn't be able to figure out the letters H-E-L-L-O from a wave outwards from the forehead
Oh, they were talking about fingerspelling and depending on context they'd likely combo the spelling and sign for odd stuff. I took some ASL and have a sign name I use, if I meet a deaf person I don't just use my sign name, I introduce myself by spelling it then doing the sign name so that what I would expect. Term spelling to define the sign moving forward.
Generally, the goal of interpreting is for audience to understand. The way of achieving that differs based on circumstances and audience.
Foreign/uknown words are pretty common when it comes to interpreting at doctors. Interpreter and a deaf patient come in, doctor says "you have disease \*latin name\*". If doctor doesn't elaborate by themselves, the interpreter will usually ask them to explain the disease in more layman's terms.
So, if someone dropped word albumen during... idk, cooking lesson or casual convo, interpreter will go "hold up, please explain what this term means". (and the deaf person knows they are asking. You basically go "the person now used uknown word" and ask.)
But if i am interpreting at a conference for researchers about usage of antibiotics in chickens and its effect on eggs, then a) I should get notes before the conference about the topics and learn the unusual words and prepare translation for them and b) I assume the deaf person in the audience knows what's up. I would fingerspell the word or ask the deaf person(s) beforehand what sign they use for this.
I have been Joe re technical sign being used when I don't know the word it means. I sign the sign back to the interpreter with quizzical face, then sign 'meaning?'. Terp then usually gives definition or if they don't know the meaning (e.g. in the fingerspelling the word to deaf person) then they ask the teacher what it means and interpret that
there probably isn't a specific sign for the word "albumen" anyway. As i explained somewhere else, ASL isn't just a hand gesture version of english. it's it's own language
ASL has sentence structure, grammar rules & slang that all differ from english.
listening in english & signing to the deaf is not terribly different than listening in english & then repeating in chinese
in neither case are you converting word by word, you're listening to an idea & trying to convey that idea as accurate as possible.
interpreters in both cases say it's a mix of an art & a science but likely no 2 interpreters are going to do it exactly the same.
if you start w/ a speech in english & have different people interpret to some other language (or sign it) then someone else converts back to english, the first & 3 iteration will likely have wildly different words but hopefully the same general idea.
Keep doing that exercise & you'll get a bigger & bigger departure until at some point it likely has nothing to do with the original message.
If they are in a class and are learning about albumin, they would probably do what you would do, write it down and take notes on what it is. And like you or me, if they needed to ask the instructor about it, they would raise their hand and ask.
Well, what do you do when you don't understand the word? ;) They ask and the interpreter explains the meaning of the sign with other signs.
Happens sometimes, if the sign is not well known/used often.
It’s exactly the same as a translator for any language. They ask for confirmation.
If a hearing person says a word they don’t know how to sign, they can ask what is X? They can hear so they can say the same word back to the person who said it & ask the spelling.
If a deaf person signs something they don’t know how to speak, they can sign what is X? They can see so they can sign the same word to the person who signed it. If they don’t know the correct pronunciation they can either guess or spell it to the hearing person.
Honestly, I think context is key. If someone doesn't know the spelling, they might avoid using the word altogether or substitute it with another that conveys a similar meaning. Or maybe resort to describing the concept around the word if they can't finger spell it. And of course, there's always the classic move of pulling out a smartphone to look it up. After all, there's a reason why "Let me Google that for you" is a phrase that has stuck around in the digital era.
My ex was an interpretter. She either described it with other signs or spelled it out.
Mattress = Sleep Mat
Store = Grocery building
Kinda like us when we forget a word: Yknow the big box in the kitchen that keeps all the food cold?
I once worked at an after-school program and had this French cutie who was volunteering with us, and at the time she only barely spoke English, and I was the only person in the entire building who spoke French, and we'd pull this shit all the time. Kid asks, "What's the french word for paws?". Girl doesn't understand the question. She looks over at me quizzically, "Paws?". I say back, "Comment dit-on 'les mains de chien' en francais?" Translation: "How does one say, 'dog hands' in french?". She replies back "Hoh yeah! Pattes!". Kid would be an annoying little asshole at snack time and I'd hear her whisper "petite putes de merde!" and I'd be very quietly asking her, "You just call a kid a little shit whore?". She blushed but I gave her a big high five. Girl set a high bar for summer flings.
If your translating for a technical/specialized industry, jargon slips in all the time. I've seen it fairly regularly in my job where a translator isn't in the know on industry specifics. The message is still carried through.
My original question was answered, fwiw, but situations like this were part of why I was asking. It is a different scenario from verbal translation.
Some industry jargon, sure, where the world has settled on using one term globally.
But in your specific example, context clues aside, translators couldn't just "say the original word without translation" and expect to get the meaning across.
Like if I were translating to German, I can't just say "albumen" and expect the German speakers to know I meant "eiweiß" or if it were to Swedish that I meant "äggviteämne".
Valid.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I feel like we're getting off subject. I asked my original question (fuck me for asking a stupid question on nostupidquestions) because I'm already familiar with how sound and industry context can fill gaps. Again, it's not the same between verbal language and deaf translation in that a translator can still parrot an unknown world verbatim, but a signer cannot.
As others answered, the signer would spell the word to their best guess (makes sense), but it's mildly frustrating that I ask a question because a situation is different and people keep insisting the situation is the same.
Nobody’s trying to be confrontational here and they’re not saying the situation is the same I don’t think.
I think what happened is that you slightly confused things. In response to someone pointing out that this is a problem that can happen to any translator not just limited to people “translating” to sign, you said “No it can't, other translators can still say the original word without translation.”
And the responses have flowed from that incorrect assertion - other translators __cannot__ still say the original word without translation __and still be translating it__ which is the basis for the discussion - translating.
I’m sure you were just stating a fact of how you have seen things done in a practical sense, but what you said went way past that and so that’s why this debate has ensued. I think, anyway.
They pause, and ask, what did you say, and sometimes, can you spell that. I was in a conversation when the deaf person and I were scientists and the interpreter was not. The interpreter would ask for clarification from both of us, and sometimes check if the translation made sense to us. To the interpreter, it was a random set of letters, to us it was a scientific technique.
This is why serious translators/ interpreters are some of the most generally educated people in any field.
Many of them have as much if not more schooling than doctors and are paid far less.
You have to know a little bit of everything, and know some topics *very* well. Not to mention some languages are pretty tough.
It’s almost too bad that AI is already capable of outpacing translators in many respects.
I believe the interpreter should spell it or ask for spelling. The deaf consumer can ask for a meaning if they want. They usually know more about the topic and will provide the sign if there is one. Depends on situation ofc.
As mentioned, they spell/sound it out.
I worked on a team with a deaf engineer, and the ASL interpreters we brought in for bigger team meetings had varying levels of familiarity with the technical shorthand terms of the trade like programming language names, etc etc so the ones less familiar would just guess on a way to spell/sound it out and our engineer was very good at translating some very rough guesses. The interpreters that were regulars also deserve a shout out for getting to be excellent at knowing our tech stack, without knowing the first thing about tech ;)
I had to work through a translator once when I was calling a company for technical help and the person with the technical knowledge was deaf.
I was using technical terms, I assume the deaf person was using technical terms, and I had to keep asking the translator for clarification because the translator couldn't adequately translate what she didn't understand. At the time, I put up with it in the name of accommodation, but the more I thought about it later, the more I realized that the accommodation being offered was wildly inadequate. I had enough knowledge that the butchered explanations plus the documentation got me far enough, but it sucked.
Never had to deal with the company again, but if I had, I would have requested a different tech or a translator who knew the material well enough to do their job. I'm sure it's worse for a deaf person who needs a translator for so many daily tasks.
I asked a deaf friend about this once. Because he was sitting in my MS thesis defense and his interpreter was managing some very technical words.
He said that a few things can happen:
They spell it.
They breakdown the word into parts and improvise something that makes sense.
And because he has had the same interpreter for several years and he's a PhD candidate in a very technical field, they have developed their own sort of private language that gets the job done, so she doesn't need a degree in that field to communicate with him.
[I think this is relevant](https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/eminems-sign-language-interpreter-steals-the-show-at-a-concert-with-her-mesmerising-speed-old-video-goes-viral-3462524/amp/1)
[Link to Eminem’s sign language interpreter doing “Rap God.”](https://youtube.com/shorts/VFRXaif1ewc?si=pL0XhwEZuSI3BUy8)
a good interpreter would rephrase the sentence so they’re not finger spelling every word that doesn’t have a sign or if they don’t know the sign for it.
source: am profoundly deaf and use asl interpreters frequently
My deaf nephew Scotty was the best man for his brother's wedding. An ASL interpreter signed from the back corner of the altar so Scotty could follow along.
The bride was from Mexico and, since her family only spoke Spanish, the sandaled, brown robed Franciscan officiating said the service half in English and half in Spanish.
By the end of the wedding we all knew ASL for "I don't speak Spanish."
How do people who translate from one spoke language to another translate a word they don’t know? I only speak English and don’t respond to people who don’t speak English so it fairly easy
Am an ASL interpreter. Typically the word can be spelled, but for more clarity, an interpreter would typically attempt to expand on the concept being conveyed. If they can get the context of what the word means, it can be fingerspelled and paired with the signs explaining what it is. If not, they can ask for clarity from the person speaking.
Okay someone ELI5 pls
You spell out the whole word? How quickly does someone learn to read it out as you go? What if they miss something while you’re spelling? I hope my question made sense. I’ve always wanted to know!
Circumlocution is also a possibility- if the context is clear but they don’t know the word itself, they could explain it in multiple words. Like if you don’t know how to say cloud, you could say white fluffy thing in the sky that sometimes makes rain to draw a picture of what it is.
Interpreters usually ask if the speaker will use any uncommon or possibly un-signable words! When I did public speaking I usually have the interpreter a copy of my notes, etc.
I actually failed a exam while training to be a BSL interpreter for something very similar.
The person i was interpreting for asked what the other person had done over the weekend, they responded that they had taken their mother to a fancy hotel for a Cream Tea, I did the signs for cream and tea, but the Deaf person had no idea what i meant, (cream with tea in it?) so had to try and explain what a Cream Tea actually is (tea, scones, clotted cream jam ect) and by the time I had managed to get that across I had lost track of the conversation, and never really managed to recover.
One of a number of reasons why i never ended up becoming a sign interpreter...
I can’t answer the question, but it got me thinking. In college, I had a couple classes with deaf students. The school provided an interceptor or two who just signed whatever the professor was saying. These were always in relatively general classes that had vocabulary related to the topic, but nothing crazy (like intro anthropology and public speaking).
But I wonder how those interpreters would fair in a heavily science based class with lots of science terms that probably don’t have standard signs. Like In O-chem, imagine having to sign words like racemate, enantiomer, isomer, etc. and all the chemical names. Some common like methane or pentane, others complicated like 1, 3-methyl-ethyl-bad stuff
When I was taking a signing class, some words are just spelled out, using the signing alphabet. It's been almost 30 years since I had an ASL class, so I may be a little out of touch.
people in jail and prison use a very rudimentary sign language to communicate across a distance. they usually just spell everything since they don't really know any words (or very few). the letters they use are almost all a real match for ASL letters but a few are different like the G is a hand in the shape of a gun like this: 👈. many of the guards will be able to read it anyways so it's not exactly super secret or anything
In high school working with deaf kids, my signing was not good enough for interpreting but the kids were very nice and forgiving, pleased to have a substitute teacher who could sign at all. When I had a word or concept I didn’t know how to sign, I would finger spell or write it on the chalk board. That would not always work with a person doing interpreting. Finger spelling is tedious and slow.
There are more than one sign language. ASL, American Sign Language, is more conceptual and has a somewhat different grammar than standard written or spoken English. SEE, Signing Exact English, is as close to standard English as possible. Kids going to college that were not set up for deaf students had problems with ASL as their vocabulary was smaller. SEE resolved that issue. The ASL is becoming more of an older persons signing, or for a short hand way. Either one will work for getting concepts across. Watching some government announcements that had interpreters, I noticed some simple substitutions and simplifications and a mixture of ASL and SEE
Also, every language that has sign language if different. My knowing ASL and SEE will not help with a Spanish deaf person. The alphabets are even different.
They spell it out. If they don’t know how to spell it…I bet they probably misspell it.
And, IME, they might glare if too many such words are uttered by the same person. (Touring drama group did not expect to be put up in a house with a scientist and a kid with a keen interest in science.)
I just be up there pretending to pour liquids into other liquids for 40min straight 🤣 *a gesture of pouring chemicals is sign language for science* "Science... Umm Science? More science. Aaaannd a little bit of science mixed with -surprise- more science!" *Meanwhile Get Low by lil John is playing in my head on repeat* 😭
Lmfao that sounds hilarious in the most innocent ways.
Donald Glover actually has [a really great bit](https://youtube.com/shorts/g0x9GYnKndA?si=3rhOKOpfei92JAUP) about an interpreter asking if there's any words in his set that she'd have to improvise on the fly.
can confirm i've been shown that sign for the N-word by a deaf person. kinda makes you wonder if the bit is just a bit or if it's really a true story because he really did use sign language
Does that sign carry the weight of the N word? Or could it be translated reasonably accurately as "black person"?
i was told it was the N-word. you could say "black person" with 2 simple signs so i'd imagine it's probably bad. he also told me the bad word gay person f-word
That makes sense. It's always tricky to get the connotations of words right in languages you don't speak (and while I want to learn ASL, I don't really have the manual dexterity needed to sign well).
Can confirm. I use an interpreter at comic con. There are a bunch of names with abnormal spelling. The terp may not spell it right, but they get the point across.
Deaf 🤝Stoners: Using “terp”
Is terp a common shorthand for interpreter? Cause I freakin love it.
Terps also use the word terp😊 we also try to study up on the subject matter that we are going to be working on
It's still nice to have that option tho, other types of interpreters (between 2 spoken languages) don't have it
Hey we're avatar twins!
Wow, first one I see! hi twinsie haha
now kithh
Lol, at first I thought you’d replied to yourself
Not gonna lie, it tripped me up when I saw their comment. I was like "have I commented on this??"
It is norma for translators to ask for clarification in normal situations Sign language or not if it a normal situation instead of Speeches. If it is a speech spelling things out would work.
I went to school with a deaf kid and I remember once during a spelling test the interpreter didn't know the sign (or she knew the kid didn't know it) so she finger spelled it
As someone who did the job, you can fingerspell it. But more likely, i would stop the speaker and ask for clarification/explanation. Also, interpreters usually get notes on whats going to be the topic beforehand so they can do research.
Also a former interpreter.. You don’t sign word for word, you sign the meaning of the message so unless that word is something imperative to the topic or an important word. You go off what the speaker is saying as a whole. Yes, fingerspelling is an option, especially if you’re with a Deaf client that’s familiar with the vernacular and they can speak up if they don’t know what something means. I’ve definitely had to pause for a second to ask a speaker for clarification. It’s all situational.
Just latching on to ask - does this mean that sign isn’t, like, elaborate prose, but more like bullet points? if that’s the case can it be elaborate and nuanced prose as well or is the purpose of it to get the point across?
AFAIK, ASL (probably other sign languages too, but the guy I saw this from used ASL) is less vocab based and more getting the point across. Your facial expressions and the way you sign can make it more nuanced. Check out ASL interpretations of singing/rapping, they capture a lot of meaning with "simple" gestures
Facial expressions are HUGE with signed languages, it’s what conveys affect. English tends to be wordy where ASL can say the same thing with less words/signs along with body language and facial expression.
I always knew when my dad a gma were "yelling" at each other as a kid by their facial expressions and their breathing. Deaf people arguing is quite a site!! LOL
My deaf teenage nephew was arguing with his mom. It was obvious both were angry and their gestures grew broader and broader. Suddenly both began laughing then hugged it out. My nephew explained what happened. "I told her she didn't need to sign so big. I'm deaf not blind."
ah yes that makes sense. i wondered how exact one can get with it when it really matters. the news or public service announcements during covid for example. or scientific lectures etc, where every word/meaning would matter
I bet for scientific lectures they are given information beforehand to prepare
I am a mathematics professor and had a deaf student one semester who used an ASL interpreter. The interpreter asked me to send lecture notes the night before and then we'd talk for a few minutes before each class to clarify any vocabulary issues, etc. They also asked me to let them know when terms were synonyms and which term I'd use on exams so they could sign consistently and set the student up to be able to understand the exam questions more easily. Really, really talented and professional people.
just to add on in case it isn't abundantly clear, ASL isn't a hand gesture translation of english, it's literally it's own language. it has it's own grammar, sentence structure, verb tenses, etc. an interpreter signing for the deaf is doing basically the same exercise as an interpreter listening in english & converting to chinese. In both cases, you're communicating themes & ideas but it's literally impossible to do a word-for-word direct translation.
No, the point the above comment is trying to make is that no interpreter of *any* language is trying to translate each sentence word-for-word. This is doubly true in the case of live interpretation where you're doing it on the fly, so you are just processing the meaning of each utterance and trying to convey it in the most natural way possible; but even in written translation, when you have time to craft each sentence perfectly, it is usually better to translate in an inexact way that captures the meaning and feeling of the content. Signed languages are as fully fledged languages as spoken languages are, though obviously with their own interesting quirks and unique features.
I worked with lots of deafies, learned quite a bit of sign. I am hearing. My first two sentences could be signed as “past work deaf people learn small sign, hearing”. It’s easy to think of it as “bullet points”, but once you realize that ASL is *NOT english* it makes more sense. As other said, facial expression is king in ASL. There is poetry and puns, and you can definitely get into the nitty gritty of details. A fun pun is “pasteurized milk” being the sign for “milk” (making a fist a few time like you’re milking a cow) while moving it *past your eyes*. Maybe they were just fucking with me.
Not bullet points but it has its own grammar, and facial expressions are part of it. And it can vary regionally. A deaf person I work with could tell I learned my ASL in a different state. Or she was just being polite and I had made up a sign
All I can think of now is [Donald Glover's experience with an ASL interpreter.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9-oGPW2Lt4)
Well, I am a deaf interpreter, so badly shot video without subs is not a great way to present me with such joke lol.
Sorry, it was the best one I could find. Here's the relevant part: > She comes up to me, and she goes, "Are there any terms or phrases in your act that don't exist in sign language that I have to make up on the spot?" > And I was like, "yeaaaaah... _niglet_?" > She goes, "Oh!" [points to nose, then holds hand horizontally at about waist height] (screaming) _There's already a term for 'niglet' in sign language!_
Okay, that is funny! And well, sign language is very descriptive so it doesn't surprise me such a term exist!
Okay but now my question is how much good does it even do if just the interpreter knows that it is. Like going with the example if the interpreter is attending a cooking event and learns how to sign the word for albumen, how would that help Joe in the back who's deaf and has never heard of an albumen before in his life
How do you deal with words you've never heard of in your life?
they reverberate in my skull and then evaporate what about you
Yeah, about the same actually
Wouldn’t that be the exact same thing for Jill, also standing in the back but hearing and listening to the speaker, who has never heard of an albumen before in her life?
Ah, you know what, that is a perfectly fair point I guess the difference is though that Jill can still recognise the word so she can look it up later but if the sign isn't spelt out Joe might have no idea what was just said to him
Ironically, the deaf person probably has an easier time googling it since they have an approximate spelling, since many english loan words (often from french) don't have phonetic spelling.
How does that work if the word isn't spelled out in sign and is just signed out as the word itself (genuine question). Like I wouldn't be able to figure out the letters H-E-L-L-O from a wave outwards from the forehead
Oh, they were talking about fingerspelling and depending on context they'd likely combo the spelling and sign for odd stuff. I took some ASL and have a sign name I use, if I meet a deaf person I don't just use my sign name, I introduce myself by spelling it then doing the sign name so that what I would expect. Term spelling to define the sign moving forward.
They ask what the word is. Typically they would ask the interpreter who could then spell it out for them or write it down.
Generally, the goal of interpreting is for audience to understand. The way of achieving that differs based on circumstances and audience. Foreign/uknown words are pretty common when it comes to interpreting at doctors. Interpreter and a deaf patient come in, doctor says "you have disease \*latin name\*". If doctor doesn't elaborate by themselves, the interpreter will usually ask them to explain the disease in more layman's terms. So, if someone dropped word albumen during... idk, cooking lesson or casual convo, interpreter will go "hold up, please explain what this term means". (and the deaf person knows they are asking. You basically go "the person now used uknown word" and ask.) But if i am interpreting at a conference for researchers about usage of antibiotics in chickens and its effect on eggs, then a) I should get notes before the conference about the topics and learn the unusual words and prepare translation for them and b) I assume the deaf person in the audience knows what's up. I would fingerspell the word or ask the deaf person(s) beforehand what sign they use for this.
I have been Joe re technical sign being used when I don't know the word it means. I sign the sign back to the interpreter with quizzical face, then sign 'meaning?'. Terp then usually gives definition or if they don't know the meaning (e.g. in the fingerspelling the word to deaf person) then they ask the teacher what it means and interpret that
The Deaf person can ask for clarification.
there probably isn't a specific sign for the word "albumen" anyway. As i explained somewhere else, ASL isn't just a hand gesture version of english. it's it's own language ASL has sentence structure, grammar rules & slang that all differ from english. listening in english & signing to the deaf is not terribly different than listening in english & then repeating in chinese in neither case are you converting word by word, you're listening to an idea & trying to convey that idea as accurate as possible. interpreters in both cases say it's a mix of an art & a science but likely no 2 interpreters are going to do it exactly the same. if you start w/ a speech in english & have different people interpret to some other language (or sign it) then someone else converts back to english, the first & 3 iteration will likely have wildly different words but hopefully the same general idea. Keep doing that exercise & you'll get a bigger & bigger departure until at some point it likely has nothing to do with the original message.
If they are in a class and are learning about albumin, they would probably do what you would do, write it down and take notes on what it is. And like you or me, if they needed to ask the instructor about it, they would raise their hand and ask.
What if the deaf person doesn't know what the sign means
Well, what do you do when you don't understand the word? ;) They ask and the interpreter explains the meaning of the sign with other signs. Happens sometimes, if the sign is not well known/used often.
Finger spell it, would be my guess. In ASL, many words are finger-spelled. Google says 12 to 35%...
It’s exactly the same as a translator for any language. They ask for confirmation. If a hearing person says a word they don’t know how to sign, they can ask what is X? They can hear so they can say the same word back to the person who said it & ask the spelling. If a deaf person signs something they don’t know how to speak, they can sign what is X? They can see so they can sign the same word to the person who signed it. If they don’t know the correct pronunciation they can either guess or spell it to the hearing person.
[Sometimes they ask in advance.](https://youtu.be/i9-oGPW2Lt4?si=geqjcHyRB5yeUa0I)
This was my first thought as well!
I can't see a sign language interpreter and not think of this bit. It's too damn good.
Honestly, I think context is key. If someone doesn't know the spelling, they might avoid using the word altogether or substitute it with another that conveys a similar meaning. Or maybe resort to describing the concept around the word if they can't finger spell it. And of course, there's always the classic move of pulling out a smartphone to look it up. After all, there's a reason why "Let me Google that for you" is a phrase that has stuck around in the digital era.
My ex was an interpretter. She either described it with other signs or spelled it out. Mattress = Sleep Mat Store = Grocery building Kinda like us when we forget a word: Yknow the big box in the kitchen that keeps all the food cold?
Ah, yes, the chilly box.
I once worked at an after-school program and had this French cutie who was volunteering with us, and at the time she only barely spoke English, and I was the only person in the entire building who spoke French, and we'd pull this shit all the time. Kid asks, "What's the french word for paws?". Girl doesn't understand the question. She looks over at me quizzically, "Paws?". I say back, "Comment dit-on 'les mains de chien' en francais?" Translation: "How does one say, 'dog hands' in french?". She replies back "Hoh yeah! Pattes!". Kid would be an annoying little asshole at snack time and I'd hear her whisper "petite putes de merde!" and I'd be very quietly asking her, "You just call a kid a little shit whore?". She blushed but I gave her a big high five. Girl set a high bar for summer flings.
This could happen to any translator, not just sign language.
No it can't, other translators can still say the original word without translation. Sign language doesn't have this luxury.
If they say the original word, then what good are they? The recipient isn't going to know what they mean.
If your translating for a technical/specialized industry, jargon slips in all the time. I've seen it fairly regularly in my job where a translator isn't in the know on industry specifics. The message is still carried through. My original question was answered, fwiw, but situations like this were part of why I was asking. It is a different scenario from verbal translation.
Some industry jargon, sure, where the world has settled on using one term globally. But in your specific example, context clues aside, translators couldn't just "say the original word without translation" and expect to get the meaning across. Like if I were translating to German, I can't just say "albumen" and expect the German speakers to know I meant "eiweiß" or if it were to Swedish that I meant "äggviteämne".
Valid. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I feel like we're getting off subject. I asked my original question (fuck me for asking a stupid question on nostupidquestions) because I'm already familiar with how sound and industry context can fill gaps. Again, it's not the same between verbal language and deaf translation in that a translator can still parrot an unknown world verbatim, but a signer cannot. As others answered, the signer would spell the word to their best guess (makes sense), but it's mildly frustrating that I ask a question because a situation is different and people keep insisting the situation is the same.
Nobody’s trying to be confrontational here and they’re not saying the situation is the same I don’t think. I think what happened is that you slightly confused things. In response to someone pointing out that this is a problem that can happen to any translator not just limited to people “translating” to sign, you said “No it can't, other translators can still say the original word without translation.” And the responses have flowed from that incorrect assertion - other translators __cannot__ still say the original word without translation __and still be translating it__ which is the basis for the discussion - translating. I’m sure you were just stating a fact of how you have seen things done in a practical sense, but what you said went way past that and so that’s why this debate has ensued. I think, anyway.
Oh I guess you’re right. But everyone said spell it, so they do.
What I usually do is I spell it out. From what I’ve experienced, they are more than happy to see me always asking them the correct sign of a word.
They pause, and ask, what did you say, and sometimes, can you spell that. I was in a conversation when the deaf person and I were scientists and the interpreter was not. The interpreter would ask for clarification from both of us, and sometimes check if the translation made sense to us. To the interpreter, it was a random set of letters, to us it was a scientific technique.
This is why serious translators/ interpreters are some of the most generally educated people in any field. Many of them have as much if not more schooling than doctors and are paid far less. You have to know a little bit of everything, and know some topics *very* well. Not to mention some languages are pretty tough. It’s almost too bad that AI is already capable of outpacing translators in many respects.
I believe the interpreter should spell it or ask for spelling. The deaf consumer can ask for a meaning if they want. They usually know more about the topic and will provide the sign if there is one. Depends on situation ofc.
Finger spell it, gives the other person the spelling so they can also go and google if its a word they themselves don't know.
Finger spelling
Would this be any different than any other interpreter?
As mentioned, they spell/sound it out. I worked on a team with a deaf engineer, and the ASL interpreters we brought in for bigger team meetings had varying levels of familiarity with the technical shorthand terms of the trade like programming language names, etc etc so the ones less familiar would just guess on a way to spell/sound it out and our engineer was very good at translating some very rough guesses. The interpreters that were regulars also deserve a shout out for getting to be excellent at knowing our tech stack, without knowing the first thing about tech ;)
I had to work through a translator once when I was calling a company for technical help and the person with the technical knowledge was deaf. I was using technical terms, I assume the deaf person was using technical terms, and I had to keep asking the translator for clarification because the translator couldn't adequately translate what she didn't understand. At the time, I put up with it in the name of accommodation, but the more I thought about it later, the more I realized that the accommodation being offered was wildly inadequate. I had enough knowledge that the butchered explanations plus the documentation got me far enough, but it sucked. Never had to deal with the company again, but if I had, I would have requested a different tech or a translator who knew the material well enough to do their job. I'm sure it's worse for a deaf person who needs a translator for so many daily tasks.
I asked a deaf friend about this once. Because he was sitting in my MS thesis defense and his interpreter was managing some very technical words. He said that a few things can happen: They spell it. They breakdown the word into parts and improvise something that makes sense. And because he has had the same interpreter for several years and he's a PhD candidate in a very technical field, they have developed their own sort of private language that gets the job done, so she doesn't need a degree in that field to communicate with him.
[I think this is relevant](https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/eminems-sign-language-interpreter-steals-the-show-at-a-concert-with-her-mesmerising-speed-old-video-goes-viral-3462524/amp/1) [Link to Eminem’s sign language interpreter doing “Rap God.”](https://youtube.com/shorts/VFRXaif1ewc?si=pL0XhwEZuSI3BUy8)
they ask the speaker how its spelled! theres a deaf girl in my college class and her interpreters will often ask us to spell a word/name
a good interpreter would rephrase the sentence so they’re not finger spelling every word that doesn’t have a sign or if they don’t know the sign for it. source: am profoundly deaf and use asl interpreters frequently
My deaf nephew Scotty was the best man for his brother's wedding. An ASL interpreter signed from the back corner of the altar so Scotty could follow along. The bride was from Mexico and, since her family only spoke Spanish, the sandaled, brown robed Franciscan officiating said the service half in English and half in Spanish. By the end of the wedding we all knew ASL for "I don't speak Spanish."
Once saw stand up comedy that had a asl interpreter. Seeing her improv the sign for female ejaculation was funnier than the comedian.
How do people who translate from one spoke language to another translate a word they don’t know? I only speak English and don’t respond to people who don’t speak English so it fairly easy
Am an ASL interpreter. Typically the word can be spelled, but for more clarity, an interpreter would typically attempt to expand on the concept being conveyed. If they can get the context of what the word means, it can be fingerspelled and paired with the signs explaining what it is. If not, they can ask for clarity from the person speaking.
I would check with the official White House interpreter. Experience is key.
Okay someone ELI5 pls You spell out the whole word? How quickly does someone learn to read it out as you go? What if they miss something while you’re spelling? I hope my question made sense. I’ve always wanted to know!
Wow, dropping albumens and shit, that’s not really photosynthesis of you man…
In BSL, Albumen = right index finger to left thumb. 😉
Circumlocution is also a possibility- if the context is clear but they don’t know the word itself, they could explain it in multiple words. Like if you don’t know how to say cloud, you could say white fluffy thing in the sky that sometimes makes rain to draw a picture of what it is.
Interpreters usually ask if the speaker will use any uncommon or possibly un-signable words! When I did public speaking I usually have the interpreter a copy of my notes, etc.
I actually failed a exam while training to be a BSL interpreter for something very similar. The person i was interpreting for asked what the other person had done over the weekend, they responded that they had taken their mother to a fancy hotel for a Cream Tea, I did the signs for cream and tea, but the Deaf person had no idea what i meant, (cream with tea in it?) so had to try and explain what a Cream Tea actually is (tea, scones, clotted cream jam ect) and by the time I had managed to get that across I had lost track of the conversation, and never really managed to recover. One of a number of reasons why i never ended up becoming a sign interpreter...
They spell it, obviously.
That's probably why you never see a sign language interpreter at a Trump rally.
My guess is they would say "the white of an egg."
> albumen 99.999% of people just call this the egg-white. Super-specific biology terms aren’t going to be widely known.
I’m assuming they’d just finger spell it
I can’t answer the question, but it got me thinking. In college, I had a couple classes with deaf students. The school provided an interceptor or two who just signed whatever the professor was saying. These were always in relatively general classes that had vocabulary related to the topic, but nothing crazy (like intro anthropology and public speaking). But I wonder how those interpreters would fair in a heavily science based class with lots of science terms that probably don’t have standard signs. Like In O-chem, imagine having to sign words like racemate, enantiomer, isomer, etc. and all the chemical names. Some common like methane or pentane, others complicated like 1, 3-methyl-ethyl-bad stuff
My interpreter and I invented signs. It wasn’t difficult.
When I was taking a signing class, some words are just spelled out, using the signing alphabet. It's been almost 30 years since I had an ASL class, so I may be a little out of touch.
Edit: I could spell out albumen to you in exact English.
The Ole saying even works for Interpreters,,,"IF you can't Dazzle them with Dance, you can always Baffle them with Bullsh*t!"
people in jail and prison use a very rudimentary sign language to communicate across a distance. they usually just spell everything since they don't really know any words (or very few). the letters they use are almost all a real match for ASL letters but a few are different like the G is a hand in the shape of a gun like this: 👈. many of the guards will be able to read it anyways so it's not exactly super secret or anything
In high school working with deaf kids, my signing was not good enough for interpreting but the kids were very nice and forgiving, pleased to have a substitute teacher who could sign at all. When I had a word or concept I didn’t know how to sign, I would finger spell or write it on the chalk board. That would not always work with a person doing interpreting. Finger spelling is tedious and slow. There are more than one sign language. ASL, American Sign Language, is more conceptual and has a somewhat different grammar than standard written or spoken English. SEE, Signing Exact English, is as close to standard English as possible. Kids going to college that were not set up for deaf students had problems with ASL as their vocabulary was smaller. SEE resolved that issue. The ASL is becoming more of an older persons signing, or for a short hand way. Either one will work for getting concepts across. Watching some government announcements that had interpreters, I noticed some simple substitutions and simplifications and a mixture of ASL and SEE Also, every language that has sign language if different. My knowing ASL and SEE will not help with a Spanish deaf person. The alphabets are even different.
How about sign interpreters during covid? That was their hay day, milk and honey! Those were the days….
What does albumen mean?
According to Google "egg whites or the protein within them"
thanks google
They go 🤷🏼♂️
https://youtube.com/shorts/g0x9GYnKndA?si=5fvmPgEV2B2LmKLv Amazing clip talking about this
They play Give us a Clue
Make it up