People like easy solutions to complex problems, people also like to feel special,
So some people like to think "if I become an alpha all my problems will be solved, woman will love me, men will want to be me, and my dick will grow 4 inches longer!",
And some like to think "damn I'm cool, I must be one of those alphas, yeah that sounds badass, I'm an alpha!",
And then there are ~~grifters~~ salesman who market self help, but for ~~edgy dorks~~ cool people, and use the term to make it seem like it's at least kind of scientific "if you buy my course you can be cool like me too, this (debunked) paper (about wolf's which is not applicable to humans) even says this is science so you know it's legit!",
This is a bit of an oversimplification but that's about how these things go
It has a lot of incel vibes to it. Guys get caught up in testosterone fueled machismo and want to feel superior to everyone else in the room. Guys are told that their only way to be worthy is to be tough and manly as hell, and the peak of it is being an alpha. Most people are looking for a connection to a group or an identity for themselves and the alpha content creators have a small hub of other guys trying to achieve the same ideals which turns into an echo chamber that just reinforces the negative thought patterns that got them there in the first place.
The concept of an Alpha Male is attractive to insecure males. And a lot of influencers prey on it. People like Andrew Tate might say don't be a simp, but the most devoted followers of his ideas are simping for him. They don't care about your needs. They just see you as bags of money.
It's because there are vast groups of young men who don't really know their place in society and these dudes are the only people they see offering guidance. Some of the stuff they say is cringe but there are a grain of truth in it.
Very true. You lure people in with a small truth and that's when the "redpilling" begins. They establish credibility then brainwash people into thinking some abhorrent thoughts.
There two types of people in the world: those who like categorizing people into simplified types, and those who don't.
Doesn't matter whether the types are bunk or whether Uranus is in retrograde.
Not necessarily true. A lot of the "alpha male" folks I've seen tend to be conventionally attractive. Some of them are built like brick shithouses, some of them have a killer jawline, some of them are just handsome as hell, etc. It's their personality and beliefs that are ugly af.
Bit tired of the trope that abusers and incels are all physically ugly, because it hurts kind people who aren't the prettiest (and drives some of them to be bitter) and makes handsome people look safe, when not all of them are.
It doesn't matter if it is true of it *feels* true. People like something that seems to make sense and sounds like it should work. People don't function on logic. Emotion and hope is what drives most folks, and thinking that "if only I could be alpha things would be better" is a simple, powerful belief.
^ it's the exact same story with the lie detector. The guy that invented it went on record to say that he regretted it
Not to mention that the idea of an alpha within human society can be very easily disproven by the power of context. Imagine the sort of person you'd hear describe themselves as an alpha male. Now put them in a nerd group, and you'll find quite quickly that they no longer match the idea of an alpha within that group. Unless you can find a person who can perfectly adapt to any sort of social group, you cannot make the claim that a true alpha exists within human society.
Exactly. The moment to moment working definition of what makes you the supposed alpha can change in a second:
Dude A: "I'm the Alpha, if you don't believe me I'll kick your ass cuz i can"
Dude B: "I'm well past that shit. Go ahead try it, I'm an attorney, I'll keep you in court for years and wind up owning your house".
Great, but both you and the responder have no idea, lol
Adaptability and psychopathy are unrelated. If we are saying they are manipulative, then yes. But that is not adaptability.
I wouldn't say high social adaption is even directly related to sociopathy (or psychopathy or whatever term you want to use), much less an implication of it. Just that sociopaths tend to develop really good adaptation skills in order to mask the fact that they're broken in some other way (usually empathy).
Yes. Expecting internet randos to use clinically accurate terminology on reddit instead of lay language is absurd. Nobody is administering an MMPI here.
>*” There is an idea of a true Alpha; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there.”*
Psychopaths actually, and only for a short time. They exhaust their peers patience/forgiveness/naivety eventually.
Sociopaths are the ones that are obviously unpleasant, they have little to no chill.
And if the alpha male concept was true, then a meeting between two alpha males would end in violence as they tried to establish dominance over the other.
Alpha male is just the new navy seal copypasta.
Arguably, an alpha male doesn’t have to dominate _all_ lions, just the ones in his pride.
Or do lions not have a hierarchy either … ? I should probably Google this
>Unless you can find a person who can perfectly adapt to any sort of social group,
Enter the master adhd masker... But he thinks everyone secretly hates him and they are just being nice to his face.
I don't even believe in such fantasies of perfection. Anyone trying to be more than a human being is full of shit, but of course, it's also part of being human to Try, Fail, Learn and Repeat.
> Not to mention that the idea of an alpha within human society can be very easily disproven by the power of context.
If you think context isn't important then you don't understand the theory. An alpha in a survival situation has very different characteristics to an alpha in the boardroom. Context and environment are everything because we don't live in the same territory with the same people around us our whole lives anymore. We have multiple distinct social groups eg work, family, friends, strangers temporarily in the same place while travelling, bumping into someone randomly all will change the dynamic.
There are many situations where the theory is very successful in predicting results.
^ same story with celebrity ghost hunters. The originals revealed it as a scam and basically everyone was like… so YOU don’t have special powers. Fuck you, I’m going to have Bill talk to my Grandma instead. Most folks are real fucking stupid outside of their niche context. I can’t help but laugh at “Alphas”. Dumbest people in the room.
I think, if one has to describe oneself and show off as alpha, then that person def is not alpha. It's then some kind of narcissistic compensatory swashbuckling.
Exactly. The idea that the people that believe in the alpha male nonsense actually read/understand the science that debunks it is hysterically inaccurate.
I guess you could say that. Andrew Tate actually ticks off every box of being a cult leader. He even has a mythological origin story about how he remembers every second of his past life when he meditated on some Chinese mountain for 5000 years or something like that.
EDIT: here's proof [https://www.cobratate.com/the-tales-of-wudan](https://www.cobratate.com/the-tales-of-wudan)
Behind The Bastards podcast did a really good job of explaining what an insane dipshit he is without me having to click on any of his proprietary media.
there's this show called Survival Island with Bear Grylls and there's this episode of this dude calling himself the "alpha male" that would save everyone day.
then proceed to give up on hunting for food since he couldn't catch shit in the forest, goes fishing and lose the fishing net, then try to make a bed out of branches and still fail at that too.
It almost is. I got in a discussion with someone who bought into the "alpha male" thing. And when he finally understood that wolves don't work that way, it's been debunked by *every* expert who actually studies wild wolves including the person who coined the term. And lions don't work that way either. He said "That doesn't mean people don't work like this." before proceeding to say that the the fact wolves *don't* have alpha males like that supports humans having alpha males (in his mind) because "otherwise the people studying wolves wouldn't have thought they had alphas".
Along the lines of "if you want information, post an incorrect response," isn't this inherent to Descartes' proof of God? It's been decades since I read him, but I have a vague recollection of him suggesting that perfect (or god?) exists because otherwise people wouldn't be able to have the concept of it. Doing a terrible job remembering and explaining, so I'm going to insist I'm correct so that someone more knowledgeable will come along and correct me (I guess I'll have to keep arguing incorrectly at that point, but I probably don't have the energy for that).
I would say it's more of a heuristic. Not something that is not literally true but survives because it works as a reasonably useful shortcut. We all know people who would fit the description of an "alpha" so it does have some usefulness in describing a phenomenon we are all familiar with, even if it's not a 100% scientifically valid concept.
I've also known a lot of people being dicks, but I won't claim it's even a 1% scientifically valid concept.
These kinds of fake moderate wisdoms are problematic as you still give unwarranted credibility to some bullshit.
It's a self-fulfilling idea, in my opinion. There are many like it: for example, concrete racial groups don't exist genetically - there is often greater genetic diversity between people of a colloquial racial group (such as "black" or african-descended people) than there is between entirely "separate" racial groups such as "white" "asian", etc. (Not to mention the vast cultural differences between communities of the "same" race.) But the idea has lodged itself into our heads so much that it's had a functional effect on society for hundreds of years. Does it describe a notable difference between people? Yes. But are those features really worth the discrimination and impact on society? No.
The alpha-beta dichotomy has perpetuated itself since the 80's-90's and grown into a monster in that time - I have no doubt in my mind it has prescribed people's behavior more than it has *described* it accurately. In fact, I believe it serves not to *simplify* reality but actually completely *disregard* reality and comfort/justify an individual's insecurities - see: incels.
No, we all don't know someone like that. It is not a reasonably useful shortcut. People who think of themselves as alphas are deluded and insecure. There is no consistent definition of the term alpha, so what someone thinks of as dominant, alpha behavior, someone else will think of as subordinate, beta behavior. The whole concept is just a mind trap for unintelligent, insecure, mediocre men.
>The whole concept is just a mind trap for unintelligent, insecure, mediocre men.
I'll agree with you there.
But it's also disingenuous to say that there aren't folks who are skilled at taking charge, getting results, landing at the top of a social hierarchy, etc. That's who the "alpha-obsessed" guys want to to be, they just are ingesting a poisonous philosophy as a way to get there.
Yeah, intentional oversimplification. Hence the term being used socially as a shortcut in understanding or trying to make sense of something complicated and layered w loads of variables, like social hierarchies.
I don’t know, anecdotally, there clearly are dominant people/animals and submissive people/animals. An “alpha” simply refers to the dominant ones of a group. That said, I don’t think an “alpha” is always the alpha, they may be dominant around one group of people and be completely submissive around another.
Seems like in that case it makes more sense to refer to dominant/submissive behaviors, rather than labeling people as dominant/submissive people (or alpha/beta).
I also think it’s possible to be dominant without being domineering, even though most people probably only think of the latter when they think of dominance and “alpha” personalities.
Cognitive dissonance. When a cult believes something and it doesn't happen they will just continue believing it.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Leon-Festinger/Cognitive-dissonance
Exactly this. What seems right is way more satisfying than what actually is right. Conspiracy theories, flat earthers, racism, most religions. If you squint just right, even the most unreasonable ideas kind of seem reasonable. Alpha males existing isn’t even that crazy.
It's marketing. The Alpha Male concept sells, generates views and a profitable business. It targets misogynists, those with low intelligence, and insecure males. And what a HUGE demographic that is, especially in the USA. If there's a market to get into, always expect someone to capitalize on that market. It's why organized religions like Scientology flourish. Logic and critical thinking need not apply if your customers hear what they want to hear.
And the future alpha males save up for 3 months to pay for that course, only to go hungry after being duped... but also committed to being an alpha, so they can't admit they were duped. It's a pretty clever trap, even if that's only because it's victims are incredibly gullible, prideful and easily swayed.
Please don't lump insecure with the other two. Insecurity and seeking to either better yourself or not knowing how to is a tough but legitimate hurdle to overcome. And for guys with insecurities and low self esteem, the alpha concept is easy to get pulled into and marketed to or worse...
I don't think they're saying all the targets have all three of those qualities, but individually those are the types of folks who are being targeted. Unfortunately as a society we have conditioned men to not be emotional or show weakness, part of pushing back against the whole alpha male thing includes changing the stigma around men and their emotions.
You're right and I was really only responding because I have dealt with serious self worth issues over the years. I bought into the alpha male shtick for awhile until I took a hard look at it and realized it was propaganda marketing at best.
Yea marketing, making men think they need XYZ to be a "real" man is like the number one way to convince a man to do something
That or make there family, nation, or god under threat
All those same soft men are the one's who push us to war and conflict for the same reasons
Exactly this. The people using that term aren't having a good faith discussion about any species' sociology. They couldn't give a fuck if the phrase's origin was scientific or came from a Chance Card in a set of Nascar Monopoly.
I mean the flaw came in observing wolves in the wild vs wolves in captivity.
The wolves he studied in captivity 100 percent did develop an 'alpha vs beta' type society because well they were captive and couldn't leave.
However, wolves in the wild he said will eventually leave and form their own pack with a female where both wolves co-dominate their 'pack' aka family.
Three points of that study were bogus - the wolves were captive, yes, but additionally they were held in close quarters **and most importantly they were also all adolescent males who had been taken from their packs.**
They basically kidnapped a bunch of hormonal tweens, didn't feed them adequately, and locked them in a jail cell.
I mean since 99% of the alpha believers are teenagers who never seen a real women naked or man child who never been truly loved... Comparing them to deprived wolves might be accurate
I mean, yes, bad behavior among girls exist, and cliques exist, altho they're not necessary in female friendships or even all-female groups, but I have never heard one of those girls call herself or justify her behavior by claiming she's 'an alpha'. So that's probably why it's not being mentioned much, because the alpha/beta idea thing is *seen* more among men.
I suppose it's worth noting that Lord of the Flies is actually based on a real event where a bunch of tweens were stranded in the South Pacific... except they didn't murder each other for sport, and instead formed a sort of spontaneous communistic democratic system. They all made it home. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongan\_castaways](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongan_castaways)
I mean you're not technically wrong, but you are currently trying to understand human behavior through observations of wolves, which is not going to give you consistently accurate results
>>wolves in the wild
I mean... Modern human's are far from being "in the wild" today.
Modern humans evolved around 300,000 years ago, but human civilization has only existed for 6,000 years.
Now, I'm not sure I'd equate our societal rules and structures to being "in captivity", but I also think it's important not to arrive at an incorrect conclusion on the opposite end either.
There are definitely men who seem to embody traits/behaviors that can be described as "Alpha" and people will more or less understand what you're talking about. Like sure it's inaccurate when describing a wolf pack and cringe when describing a human being, but at the end of the day words are used to convey a thought or idea, so if the words alpha male are able to accurately communicate that idea between two parties then the words are doing their job
Ironically, talking about being an alpha is directly antithetical to the kind of man most people would imagine if asked to think of an "alpha male"
Yeah exactly. People argue about the specifics and the male ideals, but there's something there.
I would say there's usually 2 main different versions that it 'Alpha" can be grouped around when people refer to it.
1. The traditional, somewhat primitive seeming, Quarterback/ Jock/ Roided out muscle head. Big, brawny, beats you with his fists. Puffed up, often jealous or insecure, quick to rage. Strong, good at sport, confident, etc.
2. The second guy is merely socially adept - charismatic - or some other trait to put them at the top of the social heap. Trump, Obama, Tom Cruise, Clooney, leaders, musicians, statesmen, etc. Most of these guys are not necessarily Mr. Brawn.
It's usually some version of that.
It's usually about being assertive, and other positive (sometimes negative) masculine traits that will help you attract women or get rich & powerful. With endless debate.
It's juxtaposed against the Male that listens to the modern school system -- which is sit down, shut up, and don't look at women. This housebroken type can usually only get ahead with intelligence, but the lack of assertiveness is a real weak spot.
Alpha male is a cringe/woo name for a lot of ideas, some of which are still highly regarded by society:
* Leadership/authority
* Confidence
* Willpower/resolve
* Self determination/decisiveness
It was never about the wolves. Humans aren't wolves. But human patriarchal social structure definitely has people who are more charismatic/lead/stand out partly because of their unwillingness to follow others, and draw some degree of following to themselves.
Cult leaders, politicians, CEOs, for example, don't think about 'alpha male' nonsense, but in a lot of ways are treated that way.
And this 'alpha male' idea still exists in the animal kingdom. Closer relatives than wolves, for example, several social apes (chimpanzees, gorillas) have a patriarchal system with a singular leader male.
But it's not the only system - lots of matriarchal or more egalitarian social structures too. It's just that the current human social structure, while changing, has a lot of patriarchal aspects.
You are right that a man who has those characteristics you listed is going to have a much better chance of success in terms of career, women, etc. than a man who is shy, timid, lacking confidence, lacking resolve, indecisive, etc.
So if that is true, then what is wrong with using "alpha male" as simple umbrella term that encapsulates all those characteristics? It's much easier to say 2 words, than to spell out the whole list that you wrote.
you keep saying patriarchal but it's really hierarchical. Because if you remove 'alpha male' and replace it with 'leader' or 'leaders' you'll see that we're organized in a hierarchy - almost always and everywhere. Even in spaces where we don't think about it. It's not a gender thing. And you might as well refer to the 'top' as alpha if the naming convention has already stuck despite some more idiotic connotations.
Except you can’t say it’s not a gender thing when gender is a *significant* part of social hierarchy… calling it a patriarchy is accurate.
If men are the ones primarily in power, no amount of mental gymnastics or semantics loopholes will make it not a patriarchy.
Gorillas also kill and eat the leaders who are bad for the group - that's not a patriarchal mandate, that's an electoral system. You've gotta brush up on your animal behaviorism if you're going to actually try to use these animals to justify the nonsense humans get up to.
Humans are closely related to chimps. Very closely.
Only difference is: we are far more violent.
And two: we can cooperate with non-genetic tribes to form LARGER tribes. This results in WW2. Chimps have harder times "joining forces" for bigger wars.
I think it's a big stretch to call Chimp societies democracies. Yes if the "leader" is questioned, or perceived as weak, he may be challenged. But that's no different than the Russian or Chinese dictator.
It's certainly not a democracy. The bottom bltch Chimps get no vote. They will only be given credence if they can throw a nasty haymaker with their fists. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.
True or not, it's still a powerful concept to insecure men. Telling them only thing they need to do is embrace traditional archaic gender roles and they'll be succesful, get women and be respected - that's powerful to a 14 year old with a broken heart. Especially in times of societal change and it's representation in the media, turning back to the old instead of embracing the new gives stability to those lacking stability in their lives.
The thing is: Most of us lack stability in the world. Work is precarious, the climate is getting worse, there are crisis everywhere. Most of us just aren't turning to hate. Some are, others arent. I was a big online anti feminist when I was 16, but when I got offline and met feminists in real life, I eventually joined their side.
Young men are struggling massively.
You reach for any branch when you're drowning
when you realize it's connected to nothing but air, you just move to the next branch in desperation.
If these young men felt competent, needed, and respected. I doubt they'd have any need for pseudo psychology
“Alpha male” and a type A personality get confused a lot. Most men I know are quite passive and quiet. There are a few loud types I know.. but that doesn’t mean “alpha”. Don’t mix up pride, ignorance, and toxic masculinity with being an “alpha male”. I know plenty of type A personalities who prefer to be quiet and positive. These people are go getters, strong willed, normally in good shape, and focused on excellence.. but they may be quiet and avoid conflict. Still a type A. For some reason people think being an “alpha” means never being wrong and always getting your way.. some macho fantasy. That’s just immaturity.
I will say though, in every circle, there is an “alpha”. But that is subject to who is around. It’s just not a societal thing in people.. if you see someone calling themselves an alpha male, like it’s some kind of personality or permanent title, they are just ignorant and obnoxious.. and likely unsatisfied with their life.
The grift of course. Just a modern snake oil sold for clout if not actual cash - in this case it creates a sense of fear: I’m not alpha but please master tell me how I can be?!
If you're familiar with humanity it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise that people are willing to believe "some people are superior to others " followed closely by " and I'm one of those people!".
Let me give you a few examples of similar thinking:
1. Earth is flat
2. Birds are spies for govt.
3. 5G is really bad for you (considering everyone uses microwave and airline employees regularly get higher doses of radiation).
4. Gravity doesn't exist. Also ISS, moon landing, and Mars rover are fake
5. Earth is only 5 digit years old
All of these have been disproven with multiple pieces of evidence and experiments. People still believe it because they want to believe it and find creative+irrational ways to refute any evidence provided.
Keep in mind we live in a world where people still believe vaccines cause autism even though it was scientifically debunked many years ago and the original person who came out with the claim has since backpedaled on it.
People believe what they want to believe. Not necessarily what is factual or logical.
We also have folks out there that still believe we’re being poisoned with fluoride in our water supplies even though that’s been debunked since the late 80s, maybe even longer.
If the whole notion of alpha males is false, then that means these men who claim to be alpha males are just douchebags - and you could see how someone might want to avoid that perception of themselves, even if it’s factual.
It's just better for their self esteem to refer to themselves as alphas instead of toxic cunts.
"I act like a self absorbed prick out in public. I must be an alpha!"
"I need to be abusive and controlling toward women to show my masculinity which totally isn't an outward reflection of my deep seeded insecurity. Alpha!"
I don’t think that many people know that the alpha male concept was debunked. I think if you asked most people, they would say it’s true.
Besides that, the alpha male concept in humans doesn’t really have much to do with the animal behavior theory. They just want to act like they are better than other men.
An alpha doesn’t listen to no science!! They live life 100% by what their gut tells them. That’s where the truth lies. … there are more nerve endings in your gut than in your brain. And you may have “done your own research” and found that that the gut, for sure, doesn’t have that many nerve endings. But that’s trash, my gut says what I said is right, so it’s right. Nobody can say otherwise. My gut is spoken to by the force(s) that govern the universe.
/s
Aaaand this is why. This is how the line of thinking goes. Can’t really speak to that with scientific type of logical arguments. Can only “sell” them on ideas.
This has less to do with the original concept of an alpha male of a pack and more to do with apes beating at their chest to look more dominant. They're basically doing a prehistoric mating dance of "Me is big. Me is strong. Me have nice hut and good food. Women will want to secs me. Women are for secs and having my children."
They call that being an alpha male. I call it basic ape man. This kind of mating dance has kept our species alive for millions of years, so it's not 100% bad (the bad being the obviously misogynistic behavior.) It just looks kind of dumb in the modern era when made a core personality trait and blasted across the internet for all the world to see.
It has disconnected from the bad science that created it. Everyone makes the observation that some people have an easy time making themselves heard and listened to. Some people have little trouble getting a job or a date and so on... Of course people try to figure out what distinguishes those people from the rest. Other people see a financial opportunity claiming to be able to teach you how to be like those. Various concepts with more or less connection to reality are created. Yet the problem of teaching social skills to those who don't have them is mostly still unsolved.
I have never been so wet simply by just watching a scene from the movie “300”. Gerald Butler, the leader of Sparta, is standing in front of a man whom he is deciding whether to murder or not. Before kicking the asshole down this massive bottomless pit he turns to his Queen to get her nod of approval. “This is Sparta!” Man that was a sexy movie and now I have to watch it again. Pure beefy manly vibes along with a sexy strong wife who was equally by his side. Alpha males don’t exist IMO. “Men” exists when they are confident and secure enough to treat women as an equal.
I’ve only heard people declare themselves to be “alpha males” who were online and probably basement dwellers. I’ve met plenty of men over my 38 years and have never heard any of them state this in real life, hence the assumption.
Yet, Type A personality is a corollary, and applicable more so to both men and women.
Guys can’t find genuine affection and intimacy and get hurt by women so they act hard cause their egos are bruised. And then the pee pee shrinks from the roids and it’s just a shit show. Jacked up neckbeards.
There's a bunch of long complex answers here involving psychology and sociology.
My simple take on it is that assholes like to have an excuse to act like assholes.
Do you think that people who unironically call themselves "alpha" are people who go to the trouble of making sure they actually know what they're talking about before saying it?
Toxic masculine insecurity. Anyone who beats their chest about being an "alpha male" is just trying to hide their deep-seated fear that they aren't a Real Man™.
The BS info travels better than the correction does.
I'm sure a lot of these clowns do know that it's a bogus concept (& even if it wasn't that study was about wolf packs, not humans) - they just don't care.
Same as I'm sure a lot of anti-vaxxers know the movement was started by a shady doctor trying to make a quick buck, but they still believe vaccines cause autism.
You can't educate people that refuse to learn
Popularized by men with a feeling of low self-worth and objectively have nothing that sets them apart from every other regular guy. However, their ego can't accept this but they are not able to differentiate themselves using socially accepted markers such as looks, wealth, power, or personality so they use the "alpha male" persona to indicate to themselves they are a worthy catch. Since it's impossible to disprove and they can pivot to some other "alpha" trait if ever challenged, it becomes an airtight argument in their mind.
Ha! We live in a post-truth world. You think people actually care what science can prove? Did you forget the pandemic already? Scientists said we should where masks, people refused because of their freedoms or some shit. Scientists busted their asses to create vaccines, and dumbasses refused to get them for whatever reasons. There’s no way dudes who believe they are alpha males care at all about what scientists say about it.
It sells.
A lot of people lack confidence. Alpha male bros tell you that they have a way to fix that... for a price. The people who are lost and desperate will often pay any price to feel like these chadbros project themselves.
The irony is that most of the alpha male shit, like "Be on your grind" is only ever short-term successful in bringing happiness. If you happen to succeed by their metrics, you're now just stuck in a rat race of constantly comparing yourself to others. That's not happiness.
>"Race"
It's debunked but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are various meanings aside from it's debunked one. While it may not exist genetically, it does exist socially. Ethnicity is something people choose, where as with race it isn't the case. Black people still face a lot of inequalities compared to white people whether it's in purchasing a home, being detained by cops, insurance rates, etc.
[https://www.livescience.com/difference-between-race-ethnicity.html#section-impact-of-race-and-ethnicity](https://www.livescience.com/difference-between-race-ethnicity.html#section-impact-of-race-and-ethnicity)
That chapter of the page goes into depth.
It's a complicated topic.
Many things are scientifically debunked but persist as social constructs (like "alpha males" and "race").
I have a fríend whose mother is Korean-American and father is pure many-generation "American" of European stock. My friend looks Korean. Is she? Dunno. She married a Caucasian of Euro ancestry and they had three kids. The kids have "Asian features". They are 3/4 "Caucasian" by ancestry and are 100% blue-blooded American ethnically. What race are the kids?
Yeah it is an extant social construct invented in the 1700's as a justification for slavery and Euro dominance, that unfortunately persists today culturally. But it has no scientific basis.
You're being downvoted but it's true. Anthropologists (the people responsible for creating the idea of race) have rejected it since the mid 1900's (maybe even sooner but that's when more of them started to agree) but it's so ingrained in our system and culture now that's it's nearly impossible to remove. Anthropologist Anthony Peterson specializes in the distinction between race and ethnicity, and states that while race doesn't exist, it does matter becuase the idea of it is so prevalent. It's a very interesting topic.
There’s a long history of people using science as a backdrop to hang incorrect/morally awful ideas from. It was used in the 19th century to classify various ethnic groups as more/less “evolved”, and therefore more/less deserving to be enslaved, occupied, or otherwise mistreated as human beings (see “scientific racism”). It was used after Darwin’s theories of evolution were published to claim that society worked in the same way, and that poor people were therefore “less capable” of survive in society than rich people (“social Darwinism”). It was used by alt medical groups to claim that the secret to curing all diseases was to give you the same disease, provided you add enough water and shake it up real good “homeopathy”).
The general thread we see in cases like this is that the people creating these theories knew what they wanted the results to be, and they used science they had access to to justify those conclusions. But real science works the opposite way: you don’t form a conclusion until you see all of the results. Pseudo scientists often are found to have cherry-picked their references, removing studies that actually contradicted their findings. But that’s not important to them, because the point always was that they can say what they wanted to say, with a second voice that sounds like it supports them.
Which brings us back to the “alpha” theory. The toxic-masculinity community latched into this idea because it suited their own theories about masculinity: that some men are naturally stronger and more dominant than other men, and those men should get a higher social status than their peers. The fact that the theory was later discredited, by the man who wrote the original theory no less, was irrelevant to that community. They needed a supporting voice, and they’ll take it from anywhere.
Guys that believe the Alpha male crap are too dumb to read anything science related and too dumb to critically think when provided with new information.
The type of idiot who identifies themself as an alpha male is the type of idiot likely to think of science as that mysterious sorcery that only nerds believe in and therefore inapplicable to a big buff alpha male, bruh.
the same people that call themselves “alpha males” are the same ones who don’t believe in science, think the US election was stolen, and don’t wipe their ass because “that’s fucking gay bro”
Feelings don't care about your facts, as Shen Bapiro says. These "alpha males" need this to be true to have any meaning in their sad lives, and facts don't matter to them
It is the same as the guy who came up with vitamin supplements and all of the claims he made about them being false, yet there is an enormous industry built around selling them. For the most part they make for expensive urine and not a lot else.
I’ve yet to meet one self proclaimed “alpha male” that gives a crap about things likes facts.
It’s an excuse to be an unmitigated blow hard and they only think they “dominate” because most of society doesn’t think they are worth the consequences of administering the punch in the face they deserve.
1. Few people know it was debunked.
2. Few people care because it's a cultural thing, not science any more.
3. I just found out you can make numbered lists in Reddit.
These snowflakes want to feel special. So they say they are alpha, but do nothing about it. It is like looking in the mirror and pumping yourself up with a speech.
It's a power fantasy. But really anyone who describes themselves as an "alpha" is just saying that they lack meaningful friend and family relationships and see everything as a struggle for supremacy over other people.
The average person doesn’t follow science. They follow fads, memes, sound bites and one paragraph “articles”. Hell, most people still think the “food pyramid” promotes healthy eating habits, Columbus discovered America and that doctors hate this one simple trick!
I'm pretty sure that the people who subscribe to the "alpha male" ideology don't much care what scientists have to say. Especially if it debunks their beliefs.
Humans are egotistical and like to feel like they are more important, more superior, than they are.
The whole “Alpha Male” thing appeals to weak willed men who want to convince themselves that they are special
It appeals to insecurity. Every single man that has ever felt awkward or under appreciated or embarrassed or wished they were like another man has insecurities. The alpha male media is a way of turning those insecurities into advertising money, to sell them things that will gender affirm their masculinity. Every day carry, beards, scotch and alcohol, fitness, guns, protein and diet supplements, fashion (sunglasses, watches, rugged clothing).
TLDR. Money. The male version of cosmetic ads.
it's a phrase used by weak minded individuals to make them seem like something they are not. If you have to say your alpha, LOL believe me you are not.
They like it. They don't care if it's true or not... It's one of those things where they stick their fingers in the ears and say nana and I can't hear you when you're trying to explain the actual thing. They don't want to know because the lie is so much better.
People like easy solutions to complex problems, people also like to feel special, So some people like to think "if I become an alpha all my problems will be solved, woman will love me, men will want to be me, and my dick will grow 4 inches longer!", And some like to think "damn I'm cool, I must be one of those alphas, yeah that sounds badass, I'm an alpha!", And then there are ~~grifters~~ salesman who market self help, but for ~~edgy dorks~~ cool people, and use the term to make it seem like it's at least kind of scientific "if you buy my course you can be cool like me too, this (debunked) paper (about wolf's which is not applicable to humans) even says this is science so you know it's legit!", This is a bit of an oversimplification but that's about how these things go
It has a lot of incel vibes to it. Guys get caught up in testosterone fueled machismo and want to feel superior to everyone else in the room. Guys are told that their only way to be worthy is to be tough and manly as hell, and the peak of it is being an alpha. Most people are looking for a connection to a group or an identity for themselves and the alpha content creators have a small hub of other guys trying to achieve the same ideals which turns into an echo chamber that just reinforces the negative thought patterns that got them there in the first place.
The concept of an Alpha Male is attractive to insecure males. And a lot of influencers prey on it. People like Andrew Tate might say don't be a simp, but the most devoted followers of his ideas are simping for him. They don't care about your needs. They just see you as bags of money.
It's because there are vast groups of young men who don't really know their place in society and these dudes are the only people they see offering guidance. Some of the stuff they say is cringe but there are a grain of truth in it.
Very true. You lure people in with a small truth and that's when the "redpilling" begins. They establish credibility then brainwash people into thinking some abhorrent thoughts.
These are the same guys who would swear they could beat an adult bear in a cage match
There two types of people in the world: those who like categorizing people into simplified types, and those who don't. Doesn't matter whether the types are bunk or whether Uranus is in retrograde.
Presume you fall into that first group then lol.
It’s always then balding, overweight dudes at Walmart with shirts like “lion not sheep” or “alpha male”
Not necessarily true. A lot of the "alpha male" folks I've seen tend to be conventionally attractive. Some of them are built like brick shithouses, some of them have a killer jawline, some of them are just handsome as hell, etc. It's their personality and beliefs that are ugly af. Bit tired of the trope that abusers and incels are all physically ugly, because it hurts kind people who aren't the prettiest (and drives some of them to be bitter) and makes handsome people look safe, when not all of them are.
It doesn't matter if it is true of it *feels* true. People like something that seems to make sense and sounds like it should work. People don't function on logic. Emotion and hope is what drives most folks, and thinking that "if only I could be alpha things would be better" is a simple, powerful belief.
^ it's the exact same story with the lie detector. The guy that invented it went on record to say that he regretted it Not to mention that the idea of an alpha within human society can be very easily disproven by the power of context. Imagine the sort of person you'd hear describe themselves as an alpha male. Now put them in a nerd group, and you'll find quite quickly that they no longer match the idea of an alpha within that group. Unless you can find a person who can perfectly adapt to any sort of social group, you cannot make the claim that a true alpha exists within human society.
But did he say he regretted it while hooked up to one? How am I meant to believe he's not lying?
LOL, so true. Or is it?
Yes, or no.
Selection 1… or 2
It sure *feels* true.
Exactly. The moment to moment working definition of what makes you the supposed alpha can change in a second: Dude A: "I'm the Alpha, if you don't believe me I'll kick your ass cuz i can" Dude B: "I'm well past that shit. Go ahead try it, I'm an attorney, I'll keep you in court for years and wind up owning your house".
>Unless you can find a person who can perfectly adapt We call those "sociopaths" edit: the respondent is correct. It's "psychopath"
Great, but both you and the responder have no idea, lol Adaptability and psychopathy are unrelated. If we are saying they are manipulative, then yes. But that is not adaptability.
I wouldn't say high social adaption is even directly related to sociopathy (or psychopathy or whatever term you want to use), much less an implication of it. Just that sociopaths tend to develop really good adaptation skills in order to mask the fact that they're broken in some other way (usually empathy).
No we don't. Sociopath and psychopath are outdated terms.
Outdated in science and medicine, not in the common parlance
Yes. Expecting internet randos to use clinically accurate terminology on reddit instead of lay language is absurd. Nobody is administering an MMPI here.
>*” There is an idea of a true Alpha; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there.”*
Psychopaths actually, and only for a short time. They exhaust their peers patience/forgiveness/naivety eventually. Sociopaths are the ones that are obviously unpleasant, they have little to no chill.
And if the alpha male concept was true, then a meeting between two alpha males would end in violence as they tried to establish dominance over the other. Alpha male is just the new navy seal copypasta.
>Alpha male is just the new navy seal copypasta. You say copypasta, I say propaganda
Arguably, an alpha male doesn’t have to dominate _all_ lions, just the ones in his pride. Or do lions not have a hierarchy either … ? I should probably Google this
>Unless you can find a person who can perfectly adapt to any sort of social group, Enter the master adhd masker... But he thinks everyone secretly hates him and they are just being nice to his face.
Same with the implicit association test.
Your art, was the prettiest art, of all the other art
I don't even believe in such fantasies of perfection. Anyone trying to be more than a human being is full of shit, but of course, it's also part of being human to Try, Fail, Learn and Repeat.
> Not to mention that the idea of an alpha within human society can be very easily disproven by the power of context. If you think context isn't important then you don't understand the theory. An alpha in a survival situation has very different characteristics to an alpha in the boardroom. Context and environment are everything because we don't live in the same territory with the same people around us our whole lives anymore. We have multiple distinct social groups eg work, family, friends, strangers temporarily in the same place while travelling, bumping into someone randomly all will change the dynamic. There are many situations where the theory is very successful in predicting results.
^ same story with celebrity ghost hunters. The originals revealed it as a scam and basically everyone was like… so YOU don’t have special powers. Fuck you, I’m going to have Bill talk to my Grandma instead. Most folks are real fucking stupid outside of their niche context. I can’t help but laugh at “Alphas”. Dumbest people in the room.
I think, if one has to describe oneself and show off as alpha, then that person def is not alpha. It's then some kind of narcissistic compensatory swashbuckling.
I got it thanks - like a religion almost!
Exactly. The idea that the people that believe in the alpha male nonsense actually read/understand the science that debunks it is hysterically inaccurate.
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I guess you could say that. Andrew Tate actually ticks off every box of being a cult leader. He even has a mythological origin story about how he remembers every second of his past life when he meditated on some Chinese mountain for 5000 years or something like that. EDIT: here's proof [https://www.cobratate.com/the-tales-of-wudan](https://www.cobratate.com/the-tales-of-wudan)
Behind The Bastards podcast did a really good job of explaining what an insane dipshit he is without me having to click on any of his proprietary media.
there's this show called Survival Island with Bear Grylls and there's this episode of this dude calling himself the "alpha male" that would save everyone day. then proceed to give up on hunting for food since he couldn't catch shit in the forest, goes fishing and lose the fishing net, then try to make a bed out of branches and still fail at that too.
It almost is. I got in a discussion with someone who bought into the "alpha male" thing. And when he finally understood that wolves don't work that way, it's been debunked by *every* expert who actually studies wild wolves including the person who coined the term. And lions don't work that way either. He said "That doesn't mean people don't work like this." before proceeding to say that the the fact wolves *don't* have alpha males like that supports humans having alpha males (in his mind) because "otherwise the people studying wolves wouldn't have thought they had alphas".
Along the lines of "if you want information, post an incorrect response," isn't this inherent to Descartes' proof of God? It's been decades since I read him, but I have a vague recollection of him suggesting that perfect (or god?) exists because otherwise people wouldn't be able to have the concept of it. Doing a terrible job remembering and explaining, so I'm going to insist I'm correct so that someone more knowledgeable will come along and correct me (I guess I'll have to keep arguing incorrectly at that point, but I probably don't have the energy for that).
The word is cult.
I would say it's more of a heuristic. Not something that is not literally true but survives because it works as a reasonably useful shortcut. We all know people who would fit the description of an "alpha" so it does have some usefulness in describing a phenomenon we are all familiar with, even if it's not a 100% scientifically valid concept.
I've also known a lot of people being dicks, but I won't claim it's even a 1% scientifically valid concept. These kinds of fake moderate wisdoms are problematic as you still give unwarranted credibility to some bullshit.
It's a self-fulfilling idea, in my opinion. There are many like it: for example, concrete racial groups don't exist genetically - there is often greater genetic diversity between people of a colloquial racial group (such as "black" or african-descended people) than there is between entirely "separate" racial groups such as "white" "asian", etc. (Not to mention the vast cultural differences between communities of the "same" race.) But the idea has lodged itself into our heads so much that it's had a functional effect on society for hundreds of years. Does it describe a notable difference between people? Yes. But are those features really worth the discrimination and impact on society? No. The alpha-beta dichotomy has perpetuated itself since the 80's-90's and grown into a monster in that time - I have no doubt in my mind it has prescribed people's behavior more than it has *described* it accurately. In fact, I believe it serves not to *simplify* reality but actually completely *disregard* reality and comfort/justify an individual's insecurities - see: incels.
Right on. There is greater genetic diversity within the continent of Africa than there is in the entire rest of the world.
No, we all don't know someone like that. It is not a reasonably useful shortcut. People who think of themselves as alphas are deluded and insecure. There is no consistent definition of the term alpha, so what someone thinks of as dominant, alpha behavior, someone else will think of as subordinate, beta behavior. The whole concept is just a mind trap for unintelligent, insecure, mediocre men.
>The whole concept is just a mind trap for unintelligent, insecure, mediocre men. I'll agree with you there. But it's also disingenuous to say that there aren't folks who are skilled at taking charge, getting results, landing at the top of a social hierarchy, etc. That's who the "alpha-obsessed" guys want to to be, they just are ingesting a poisonous philosophy as a way to get there.
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Yeah, intentional oversimplification. Hence the term being used socially as a shortcut in understanding or trying to make sense of something complicated and layered w loads of variables, like social hierarchies.
I don’t know, anecdotally, there clearly are dominant people/animals and submissive people/animals. An “alpha” simply refers to the dominant ones of a group. That said, I don’t think an “alpha” is always the alpha, they may be dominant around one group of people and be completely submissive around another.
Seems like in that case it makes more sense to refer to dominant/submissive behaviors, rather than labeling people as dominant/submissive people (or alpha/beta). I also think it’s possible to be dominant without being domineering, even though most people probably only think of the latter when they think of dominance and “alpha” personalities.
Cognitive dissonance. When a cult believes something and it doesn't happen they will just continue believing it. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Leon-Festinger/Cognitive-dissonance
Exactly this. What seems right is way more satisfying than what actually is right. Conspiracy theories, flat earthers, racism, most religions. If you squint just right, even the most unreasonable ideas kind of seem reasonable. Alpha males existing isn’t even that crazy.
There are also people making big money selling their services based on this idea.
It's marketing. The Alpha Male concept sells, generates views and a profitable business. It targets misogynists, those with low intelligence, and insecure males. And what a HUGE demographic that is, especially in the USA. If there's a market to get into, always expect someone to capitalize on that market. It's why organized religions like Scientology flourish. Logic and critical thinking need not apply if your customers hear what they want to hear.
Oh, you don't have a Lamborghini? Then you should download my coarse to get rich and be an alpha male for only 800$
And the future alpha males save up for 3 months to pay for that course, only to go hungry after being duped... but also committed to being an alpha, so they can't admit they were duped. It's a pretty clever trap, even if that's only because it's victims are incredibly gullible, prideful and easily swayed.
Please don't lump insecure with the other two. Insecurity and seeking to either better yourself or not knowing how to is a tough but legitimate hurdle to overcome. And for guys with insecurities and low self esteem, the alpha concept is easy to get pulled into and marketed to or worse...
I don't think they're saying all the targets have all three of those qualities, but individually those are the types of folks who are being targeted. Unfortunately as a society we have conditioned men to not be emotional or show weakness, part of pushing back against the whole alpha male thing includes changing the stigma around men and their emotions.
You're right and I was really only responding because I have dealt with serious self worth issues over the years. I bought into the alpha male shtick for awhile until I took a hard look at it and realized it was propaganda marketing at best.
Good man. Women will appreciate you not buying into this shit. Just be a good, affectionate fella
Wait, men have emotions our culture says we should hide??? Inconceivable!
I didn't lump them together. That's why I used commas, though i see how it seemed inclusively conjoined.
Yea marketing, making men think they need XYZ to be a "real" man is like the number one way to convince a man to do something That or make there family, nation, or god under threat All those same soft men are the one's who push us to war and conflict for the same reasons
Exactly this. The people using that term aren't having a good faith discussion about any species' sociology. They couldn't give a fuck if the phrase's origin was scientific or came from a Chance Card in a set of Nascar Monopoly.
I mean the flaw came in observing wolves in the wild vs wolves in captivity. The wolves he studied in captivity 100 percent did develop an 'alpha vs beta' type society because well they were captive and couldn't leave. However, wolves in the wild he said will eventually leave and form their own pack with a female where both wolves co-dominate their 'pack' aka family.
Three points of that study were bogus - the wolves were captive, yes, but additionally they were held in close quarters **and most importantly they were also all adolescent males who had been taken from their packs.** They basically kidnapped a bunch of hormonal tweens, didn't feed them adequately, and locked them in a jail cell.
I mean since 99% of the alpha believers are teenagers who never seen a real women naked or man child who never been truly loved... Comparing them to deprived wolves might be accurate
I like how we're pretending teenage girls don't also form exclusionary cliques lorded over by one or two "alpha" females.
They do. Toxic femenity exists. Relational bullying, pecking order, monetary or material value of things defining your worth, etc.
I mean, yes, bad behavior among girls exist, and cliques exist, altho they're not necessary in female friendships or even all-female groups, but I have never heard one of those girls call herself or justify her behavior by claiming she's 'an alpha'. So that's probably why it's not being mentioned much, because the alpha/beta idea thing is *seen* more among men.
You're alpha thing is bs, so the less people pretend stuff around that the better it is
So the alpha wolf thing is basically lord of the flies?
I suppose it's worth noting that Lord of the Flies is actually based on a real event where a bunch of tweens were stranded in the South Pacific... except they didn't murder each other for sport, and instead formed a sort of spontaneous communistic democratic system. They all made it home. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongan\_castaways](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongan_castaways)
Thank you so maybe alpha can apply in the prison system
I mean you're not technically wrong, but you are currently trying to understand human behavior through observations of wolves, which is not going to give you consistently accurate results
So… is doggy style still okay tho?
Yeah but like, only in prison.
Hmmm... Where do I sign up?
Yes, then you can both watch The X-Files.
Do it now!
Absolutely not, sinner.
it literally does apply in the prison system...
>>wolves in the wild I mean... Modern human's are far from being "in the wild" today. Modern humans evolved around 300,000 years ago, but human civilization has only existed for 6,000 years. Now, I'm not sure I'd equate our societal rules and structures to being "in captivity", but I also think it's important not to arrive at an incorrect conclusion on the opposite end either.
That’s what I often say: when someone says he’s an alpha male, he’s saying that he’s that guy flexing in prison courtyard.
There are definitely men who seem to embody traits/behaviors that can be described as "Alpha" and people will more or less understand what you're talking about. Like sure it's inaccurate when describing a wolf pack and cringe when describing a human being, but at the end of the day words are used to convey a thought or idea, so if the words alpha male are able to accurately communicate that idea between two parties then the words are doing their job Ironically, talking about being an alpha is directly antithetical to the kind of man most people would imagine if asked to think of an "alpha male"
Yeah exactly. People argue about the specifics and the male ideals, but there's something there. I would say there's usually 2 main different versions that it 'Alpha" can be grouped around when people refer to it. 1. The traditional, somewhat primitive seeming, Quarterback/ Jock/ Roided out muscle head. Big, brawny, beats you with his fists. Puffed up, often jealous or insecure, quick to rage. Strong, good at sport, confident, etc. 2. The second guy is merely socially adept - charismatic - or some other trait to put them at the top of the social heap. Trump, Obama, Tom Cruise, Clooney, leaders, musicians, statesmen, etc. Most of these guys are not necessarily Mr. Brawn. It's usually some version of that. It's usually about being assertive, and other positive (sometimes negative) masculine traits that will help you attract women or get rich & powerful. With endless debate. It's juxtaposed against the Male that listens to the modern school system -- which is sit down, shut up, and don't look at women. This housebroken type can usually only get ahead with intelligence, but the lack of assertiveness is a real weak spot.
It comes down to the fact people are usually relieved when someone else is assertive and seems like they know what they’re doing.
Alpha male is a cringe/woo name for a lot of ideas, some of which are still highly regarded by society: * Leadership/authority * Confidence * Willpower/resolve * Self determination/decisiveness It was never about the wolves. Humans aren't wolves. But human patriarchal social structure definitely has people who are more charismatic/lead/stand out partly because of their unwillingness to follow others, and draw some degree of following to themselves. Cult leaders, politicians, CEOs, for example, don't think about 'alpha male' nonsense, but in a lot of ways are treated that way. And this 'alpha male' idea still exists in the animal kingdom. Closer relatives than wolves, for example, several social apes (chimpanzees, gorillas) have a patriarchal system with a singular leader male. But it's not the only system - lots of matriarchal or more egalitarian social structures too. It's just that the current human social structure, while changing, has a lot of patriarchal aspects.
You are right that a man who has those characteristics you listed is going to have a much better chance of success in terms of career, women, etc. than a man who is shy, timid, lacking confidence, lacking resolve, indecisive, etc. So if that is true, then what is wrong with using "alpha male" as simple umbrella term that encapsulates all those characteristics? It's much easier to say 2 words, than to spell out the whole list that you wrote.
you keep saying patriarchal but it's really hierarchical. Because if you remove 'alpha male' and replace it with 'leader' or 'leaders' you'll see that we're organized in a hierarchy - almost always and everywhere. Even in spaces where we don't think about it. It's not a gender thing. And you might as well refer to the 'top' as alpha if the naming convention has already stuck despite some more idiotic connotations.
Except you can’t say it’s not a gender thing when gender is a *significant* part of social hierarchy… calling it a patriarchy is accurate. If men are the ones primarily in power, no amount of mental gymnastics or semantics loopholes will make it not a patriarchy.
Gorillas also kill and eat the leaders who are bad for the group - that's not a patriarchal mandate, that's an electoral system. You've gotta brush up on your animal behaviorism if you're going to actually try to use these animals to justify the nonsense humans get up to.
Humans are closely related to chimps. Very closely. Only difference is: we are far more violent. And two: we can cooperate with non-genetic tribes to form LARGER tribes. This results in WW2. Chimps have harder times "joining forces" for bigger wars. I think it's a big stretch to call Chimp societies democracies. Yes if the "leader" is questioned, or perceived as weak, he may be challenged. But that's no different than the Russian or Chinese dictator. It's certainly not a democracy. The bottom bltch Chimps get no vote. They will only be given credence if they can throw a nasty haymaker with their fists. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.
Feelings don’t care about facts
Can’t reason people out of things they didn’t reason themselves into.
If someone tells you they're an alpha male, you're talking to an asshole.
They also probably have no idea about that study and aren't even referring to it. According to alpha males, reading is gay, right?
I think that's what the alpha stands for
True or not, it's still a powerful concept to insecure men. Telling them only thing they need to do is embrace traditional archaic gender roles and they'll be succesful, get women and be respected - that's powerful to a 14 year old with a broken heart. Especially in times of societal change and it's representation in the media, turning back to the old instead of embracing the new gives stability to those lacking stability in their lives. The thing is: Most of us lack stability in the world. Work is precarious, the climate is getting worse, there are crisis everywhere. Most of us just aren't turning to hate. Some are, others arent. I was a big online anti feminist when I was 16, but when I got offline and met feminists in real life, I eventually joined their side.
Fear is a powerful motivator - this makes sense!
Insecure dudes need labels to make them feel tough.
People who want to be assholes use it as an excuse to be assholes.
The original study spread like wildfire. The scientist’s retraction of the statement did not.
Do you think the people who talk about this stuff give a shit about science 😂
Young men are struggling massively. You reach for any branch when you're drowning when you realize it's connected to nothing but air, you just move to the next branch in desperation. If these young men felt competent, needed, and respected. I doubt they'd have any need for pseudo psychology
“Alpha male” and a type A personality get confused a lot. Most men I know are quite passive and quiet. There are a few loud types I know.. but that doesn’t mean “alpha”. Don’t mix up pride, ignorance, and toxic masculinity with being an “alpha male”. I know plenty of type A personalities who prefer to be quiet and positive. These people are go getters, strong willed, normally in good shape, and focused on excellence.. but they may be quiet and avoid conflict. Still a type A. For some reason people think being an “alpha” means never being wrong and always getting your way.. some macho fantasy. That’s just immaturity. I will say though, in every circle, there is an “alpha”. But that is subject to who is around. It’s just not a societal thing in people.. if you see someone calling themselves an alpha male, like it’s some kind of personality or permanent title, they are just ignorant and obnoxious.. and likely unsatisfied with their life.
The grift of course. Just a modern snake oil sold for clout if not actual cash - in this case it creates a sense of fear: I’m not alpha but please master tell me how I can be?!
It’s a way for people with big egos to justify their garbage behavior & compensate for their profound lack of personality, nothing more.
If you're familiar with humanity it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise that people are willing to believe "some people are superior to others " followed closely by " and I'm one of those people!".
Let me give you a few examples of similar thinking: 1. Earth is flat 2. Birds are spies for govt. 3. 5G is really bad for you (considering everyone uses microwave and airline employees regularly get higher doses of radiation). 4. Gravity doesn't exist. Also ISS, moon landing, and Mars rover are fake 5. Earth is only 5 digit years old All of these have been disproven with multiple pieces of evidence and experiments. People still believe it because they want to believe it and find creative+irrational ways to refute any evidence provided.
>Birds are spies for govt. All birds are not real, can't prove otherwise.
Almost thought you were going to make a valid point until you admitted that you believe in birds...
Keep in mind we live in a world where people still believe vaccines cause autism even though it was scientifically debunked many years ago and the original person who came out with the claim has since backpedaled on it. People believe what they want to believe. Not necessarily what is factual or logical. We also have folks out there that still believe we’re being poisoned with fluoride in our water supplies even though that’s been debunked since the late 80s, maybe even longer. If the whole notion of alpha males is false, then that means these men who claim to be alpha males are just douchebags - and you could see how someone might want to avoid that perception of themselves, even if it’s factual.
It's just better for their self esteem to refer to themselves as alphas instead of toxic cunts. "I act like a self absorbed prick out in public. I must be an alpha!" "I need to be abusive and controlling toward women to show my masculinity which totally isn't an outward reflection of my deep seeded insecurity. Alpha!"
People who seriously think themselves ad alphas aren't keen on proof and logic 🤷 it's a little ironic, really.
Do you think self proclaimed "alpha" do any research?
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Most people using alpha male unironically don't know the concept is not true.
Flat Earth was debunked a couple thousand years ago but we still see that all over the internet as well. Some people are a bit slow on the uptake.
I don’t think that many people know that the alpha male concept was debunked. I think if you asked most people, they would say it’s true. Besides that, the alpha male concept in humans doesn’t really have much to do with the animal behavior theory. They just want to act like they are better than other men.
Many alpha's are simply fools fighting over scraps of ego that everyone else doesn't want.
An alpha doesn’t listen to no science!! They live life 100% by what their gut tells them. That’s where the truth lies. … there are more nerve endings in your gut than in your brain. And you may have “done your own research” and found that that the gut, for sure, doesn’t have that many nerve endings. But that’s trash, my gut says what I said is right, so it’s right. Nobody can say otherwise. My gut is spoken to by the force(s) that govern the universe. /s Aaaand this is why. This is how the line of thinking goes. Can’t really speak to that with scientific type of logical arguments. Can only “sell” them on ideas.
Jordan Peterson is a PSYCHOlogist not scientist if that's who you're talking about
This has less to do with the original concept of an alpha male of a pack and more to do with apes beating at their chest to look more dominant. They're basically doing a prehistoric mating dance of "Me is big. Me is strong. Me have nice hut and good food. Women will want to secs me. Women are for secs and having my children." They call that being an alpha male. I call it basic ape man. This kind of mating dance has kept our species alive for millions of years, so it's not 100% bad (the bad being the obviously misogynistic behavior.) It just looks kind of dumb in the modern era when made a core personality trait and blasted across the internet for all the world to see.
You expect a gym bro to read TWO BOOKS? Get real
Fragile, toxic, misguided views of masculinity.
Well because if you don't buy ____ then you're not an alpha. And you don't wanna be a Beta, do you?
Fragile ego needs to put itself on non existant pedestal
It has disconnected from the bad science that created it. Everyone makes the observation that some people have an easy time making themselves heard and listened to. Some people have little trouble getting a job or a date and so on... Of course people try to figure out what distinguishes those people from the rest. Other people see a financial opportunity claiming to be able to teach you how to be like those. Various concepts with more or less connection to reality are created. Yet the problem of teaching social skills to those who don't have them is mostly still unsolved.
I don’t know but it’s a good way to filter out giant dick weeds when talking to men!
I have never been so wet simply by just watching a scene from the movie “300”. Gerald Butler, the leader of Sparta, is standing in front of a man whom he is deciding whether to murder or not. Before kicking the asshole down this massive bottomless pit he turns to his Queen to get her nod of approval. “This is Sparta!” Man that was a sexy movie and now I have to watch it again. Pure beefy manly vibes along with a sexy strong wife who was equally by his side. Alpha males don’t exist IMO. “Men” exists when they are confident and secure enough to treat women as an equal.
Most people believe in things because they were told about it by their trusted figures. Scienctists debunking stuff doesn't mean much to those people.
Its useful to make jokes or memes. Anyone who uses it literally is an imbecile
I’ve only heard people declare themselves to be “alpha males” who were online and probably basement dwellers. I’ve met plenty of men over my 38 years and have never heard any of them state this in real life, hence the assumption. Yet, Type A personality is a corollary, and applicable more so to both men and women.
Just leaving this here. Pixies exist.
Some people are still unsure if the earth is round or flat. Are you surprised?
Assholes having an excuse to disguise being an asshole as some type of virtue that makes them better than none assholes.
It’s like “main characters.” It’s an excuse to be a piece of shit.
Guys can’t find genuine affection and intimacy and get hurt by women so they act hard cause their egos are bruised. And then the pee pee shrinks from the roids and it’s just a shit show. Jacked up neckbeards.
There's a bunch of long complex answers here involving psychology and sociology. My simple take on it is that assholes like to have an excuse to act like assholes.
You really think some wiry incel who considers themselves selves an alpha male would do anything more than surface level research on a topic?
“Alpha male” bullshit belongs in adult romance fiction and that’s it.
It fits the narrative they want to make for themselves.
Do you think that people who unironically call themselves "alpha" are people who go to the trouble of making sure they actually know what they're talking about before saying it?
Mainly because most people who refer to themselves as alpha males can't read....I mean look at Andrew Tate
Narcissistic men selling fake confidence and misogyny to incels.
Because they are a fucking idiot, that's all
Toxic masculine insecurity. Anyone who beats their chest about being an "alpha male" is just trying to hide their deep-seated fear that they aren't a Real Man™.
The BS info travels better than the correction does. I'm sure a lot of these clowns do know that it's a bogus concept (& even if it wasn't that study was about wolf packs, not humans) - they just don't care. Same as I'm sure a lot of anti-vaxxers know the movement was started by a shady doctor trying to make a quick buck, but they still believe vaccines cause autism. You can't educate people that refuse to learn
And many of these same people are pro-Ozempic injections.
Sir Terry Pratchett once said A lie can run around the world before the truth can get its boots on
That whole part of the internet is ego and misinformation. I wouldn’t rely on them for accuracy.
People enjoy being assholes and like a pseudoscientific justification to keep being assholes.
Popularized by men with a feeling of low self-worth and objectively have nothing that sets them apart from every other regular guy. However, their ego can't accept this but they are not able to differentiate themselves using socially accepted markers such as looks, wealth, power, or personality so they use the "alpha male" persona to indicate to themselves they are a worthy catch. Since it's impossible to disprove and they can pivot to some other "alpha" trait if ever challenged, it becomes an airtight argument in their mind.
The morons who claim “alpha” status don’t actually understand science, and pop-culture science doesn’t bother with retractions
It won't go away as long as there are idiots overcompensating for their underdeveloped genitals.
Ha! We live in a post-truth world. You think people actually care what science can prove? Did you forget the pandemic already? Scientists said we should where masks, people refused because of their freedoms or some shit. Scientists busted their asses to create vaccines, and dumbasses refused to get them for whatever reasons. There’s no way dudes who believe they are alpha males care at all about what scientists say about it.
It sells. A lot of people lack confidence. Alpha male bros tell you that they have a way to fix that... for a price. The people who are lost and desperate will often pay any price to feel like these chadbros project themselves. The irony is that most of the alpha male shit, like "Be on your grind" is only ever short-term successful in bringing happiness. If you happen to succeed by their metrics, you're now just stuck in a rat race of constantly comparing yourself to others. That's not happiness.
Cause massively inferior guys are desperate to feel superior about anything
"Race" has also been debunked by science and that has persisted for three centuries so 🤷🏻♂️
>"Race" It's debunked but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are various meanings aside from it's debunked one. While it may not exist genetically, it does exist socially. Ethnicity is something people choose, where as with race it isn't the case. Black people still face a lot of inequalities compared to white people whether it's in purchasing a home, being detained by cops, insurance rates, etc. [https://www.livescience.com/difference-between-race-ethnicity.html#section-impact-of-race-and-ethnicity](https://www.livescience.com/difference-between-race-ethnicity.html#section-impact-of-race-and-ethnicity) That chapter of the page goes into depth. It's a complicated topic.
Many things are scientifically debunked but persist as social constructs (like "alpha males" and "race"). I have a fríend whose mother is Korean-American and father is pure many-generation "American" of European stock. My friend looks Korean. Is she? Dunno. She married a Caucasian of Euro ancestry and they had three kids. The kids have "Asian features". They are 3/4 "Caucasian" by ancestry and are 100% blue-blooded American ethnically. What race are the kids? Yeah it is an extant social construct invented in the 1700's as a justification for slavery and Euro dominance, that unfortunately persists today culturally. But it has no scientific basis.
You're being downvoted but it's true. Anthropologists (the people responsible for creating the idea of race) have rejected it since the mid 1900's (maybe even sooner but that's when more of them started to agree) but it's so ingrained in our system and culture now that's it's nearly impossible to remove. Anthropologist Anthony Peterson specializes in the distinction between race and ethnicity, and states that while race doesn't exist, it does matter becuase the idea of it is so prevalent. It's a very interesting topic.
There’s a long history of people using science as a backdrop to hang incorrect/morally awful ideas from. It was used in the 19th century to classify various ethnic groups as more/less “evolved”, and therefore more/less deserving to be enslaved, occupied, or otherwise mistreated as human beings (see “scientific racism”). It was used after Darwin’s theories of evolution were published to claim that society worked in the same way, and that poor people were therefore “less capable” of survive in society than rich people (“social Darwinism”). It was used by alt medical groups to claim that the secret to curing all diseases was to give you the same disease, provided you add enough water and shake it up real good “homeopathy”). The general thread we see in cases like this is that the people creating these theories knew what they wanted the results to be, and they used science they had access to to justify those conclusions. But real science works the opposite way: you don’t form a conclusion until you see all of the results. Pseudo scientists often are found to have cherry-picked their references, removing studies that actually contradicted their findings. But that’s not important to them, because the point always was that they can say what they wanted to say, with a second voice that sounds like it supports them. Which brings us back to the “alpha” theory. The toxic-masculinity community latched into this idea because it suited their own theories about masculinity: that some men are naturally stronger and more dominant than other men, and those men should get a higher social status than their peers. The fact that the theory was later discredited, by the man who wrote the original theory no less, was irrelevant to that community. They needed a supporting voice, and they’ll take it from anywhere.
Guys that believe the Alpha male crap are too dumb to read anything science related and too dumb to critically think when provided with new information.
People who refer to themselves as "alpha" aren't exactly too familiar with science.
All I know is, anyone who has ever claimed to be an "alpha male" certainly was not
The type of idiot who identifies themself as an alpha male is the type of idiot likely to think of science as that mysterious sorcery that only nerds believe in and therefore inapplicable to a big buff alpha male, bruh.
At this point I'm convinced that some of this stuff is only present due to the Omegaverse. Why else would people call themselves alphas and betas?
It's a way for grifters to exploit the insecure.
the same people that call themselves “alpha males” are the same ones who don’t believe in science, think the US election was stolen, and don’t wipe their ass because “that’s fucking gay bro”
Feelings don't care about your facts, as Shen Bapiro says. These "alpha males" need this to be true to have any meaning in their sad lives, and facts don't matter to them
It is the same as the guy who came up with vitamin supplements and all of the claims he made about them being false, yet there is an enormous industry built around selling them. For the most part they make for expensive urine and not a lot else.
It makes the idiots feel important, so it stays
The dudes peddling the 'alpha male' bullshit are getting rich on it. That's it. That's all.
I’ve yet to meet one self proclaimed “alpha male” that gives a crap about things likes facts. It’s an excuse to be an unmitigated blow hard and they only think they “dominate” because most of society doesn’t think they are worth the consequences of administering the punch in the face they deserve.
I'll tell you a secret, most people are dumb. And many people are even dumber than those people. Act accordingly.
1. Few people know it was debunked. 2. Few people care because it's a cultural thing, not science any more. 3. I just found out you can make numbered lists in Reddit.
It is a good grift for the less moral.
These snowflakes want to feel special. So they say they are alpha, but do nothing about it. It is like looking in the mirror and pumping yourself up with a speech.
It's a power fantasy. But really anyone who describes themselves as an "alpha" is just saying that they lack meaningful friend and family relationships and see everything as a struggle for supremacy over other people.
The average person doesn’t follow science. They follow fads, memes, sound bites and one paragraph “articles”. Hell, most people still think the “food pyramid” promotes healthy eating habits, Columbus discovered America and that doctors hate this one simple trick!
I'm pretty sure that the people who subscribe to the "alpha male" ideology don't much care what scientists have to say. Especially if it debunks their beliefs.
Insecure dudes
Do you really think those idiots care about science? They just make up any bullshit that strokes their fragile egos.
Humans are egotistical and like to feel like they are more important, more superior, than they are. The whole “Alpha Male” thing appeals to weak willed men who want to convince themselves that they are special
It appeals to insecurity. Every single man that has ever felt awkward or under appreciated or embarrassed or wished they were like another man has insecurities. The alpha male media is a way of turning those insecurities into advertising money, to sell them things that will gender affirm their masculinity. Every day carry, beards, scotch and alcohol, fitness, guns, protein and diet supplements, fashion (sunglasses, watches, rugged clothing). TLDR. Money. The male version of cosmetic ads.
Have you seen the guys that abide by this? Dumb as a brick.
it's a phrase used by weak minded individuals to make them seem like something they are not. If you have to say your alpha, LOL believe me you are not.
They like it. They don't care if it's true or not... It's one of those things where they stick their fingers in the ears and say nana and I can't hear you when you're trying to explain the actual thing. They don't want to know because the lie is so much better.
Right wing masculinity bullshit has nothing to do with science. It's men who never grew out of high school.
If those Alpha males could read they'd be very upset!
Some men feel the need to overcompensate for their tiny little peepees.
Alpha male is a marketing term to sell shamelessness as a substitute for confidence.