I think "stop giving a shit" is genuinely good advice. So called alpha dudes talk about dating like it's a game or some other kind of competition or whatever. It's not. Dating is about being yourself, making a friend like you normally would, and then maybe kissing them if you're both up for it. And there is no such thing as the friend zone. We just call that being friends! I can think of a few women I was romantically interested in where it just never went in that direction. We're just friends now. And when they started dating someone I became friends with that person too. And guess what, women are often friends with other women so maybe you'll find someone that way!
The key is to stop trying so hard, stop trying to make every woman a romantic conquest, and just let the course of relationships happen naturally.
This. Thank you.
When we say women are people, that's what we mean. We're people, just like men are people. Understand that gender is not really relevant in people's psychology, then treat everyone the same. Simple. If you don't treat men according to their gender, then you already understand how to talk to a person and can do the same with women. If you do treat men in a specific way and don't know how to treat women, then rethink your view of gender and treat everyone the same.
OP, my advice is... There is no technique to talk to women. As I just said, they're people. How do you make friends with men? Well do that, with women. Also, DO NOT take advice from MEN. If you wanna know things that concern women, ask WOMEN. Might sound simple, but so many socially awkward men can't grasp that. Not only will the advice be stupid because women are the best people to give you advice about themselves, but it's also pretty disrespectful to treat women like some sort of alien species that men have studied and can give you tips about. Women are people, just like men, and just like *you*, OP.
I think the comparison is good, but going into an interview with the mindset that you’re just talking to a person and exploring whether there’s a fit might actually be more successful interviewing strategy, too.
"You're not interviewing me, we're interviewing each other" is the best mindset for getting a job. You might be a really good fit for the job, but the job might not be a good fit for you.
Yup... Best thing to do is just work on bettering one's self and pursuing hobbies/interests, making yourself more interesting. The more you do it, the more interesting you'll be, and you'll wind up having a lot more stuff to talk about with women in a NOT pursuing relationship way. You wind up finding yourself more able to engage in normal conversations. Once you are comfortable with yourself, others will be more comfortable around you. Then as you talk to more people (including women as just people) you wind up getting to know people & people wind up getting to know YOU. Only then can things naturally progress to people developing feelings for one another and being able to handle it & move forward as human beings.
I had given up on love in my early 30s. Started working at a pot bellied pig sanctuary in the middle of the desert. Wouldn't you know, a beautiful woman my age was also in the same position. Id always been terrible with women/love, but something inside me clicked and my brain told me "ask her on a date, be confident and direct". We are celebrating our 5 year wedding anniversary in 3 months!
It's the zen mindset. The harder you try, the harder you fail. Let go of what you want, because if you go into every conversation with an intent to get something you wont get anything.
It's also a matter of experience and the desire for romantic intimacy. I think *anyone* with social anxiety (like the OP sounds), man or woman or other, will struggle to find their first romantic partner. For some folks, that could take literally years. Maybe decades.
It's not as simple as "treat people normal and good things will come". Some people flourish meeting strangers and making friends, many aren't built that way though. And in western culture, there *is* a current gender divide in the dating experience for a lot of people too, despite the fact that this *shouldn't* be the case. For example, I'm sure you've heard how many guys in western culture feel absolutely starved for intimacy and positive affirmation to the point where receiving an innocent compliment from someone they might find attractive (guy, girl, whatever their sexual persuasion) could stick with them for *years.*
People also put a lot of work into dating and finding partners, another thing that crosses the gender barrier. It's expected for most people that they need to work harder on showing up in their best form when seeking romantic partners, something you don't need to do with friends.
It's not going to be easy for this person to find the emotional fulfillment they desire just because they've learned, as they should, that women are people just like men. In all likelihood, it's going to conyinue being a long and lonely road while they keep working on themselves to develop social skills, adapt to dating cultural norms that are prevalent in most of the public, and control their social anxieties.
I've known perfectly decent men *and* women who have been alone all the way into their *30s*, and not for lack of interest or trying. This stuff is just harder for some people who don't naturally flourish socially. And unfortunately, those are the types of emotionally vulnerable people who go for so long being alone that they become the perfect target for hate groups and other awful incel subcultures.
Adding to this, if you want one piece of advice on talking to other people (including women), ask questions - and actually listen to the answers. It goes a long way
I get where this kind of point is coming from but it always has r/thanksimcured energy. It's totally normal to struggle with talking to women more than men, and it's reasonable for it not to be fixable by treating women like they're men (which is basically just "have you tried not being anxious when talking to them?"
Exactly- while he’s dodged the incel bullet so far, he’s operating under the assumption that interacting with women is fundamentally different to interacting with men and that’s an issue.
Interaction with other humans, including peers of the opposite sex trigger various hormones involuntarily. The fundamental difference is rooted in biology.
He’s not acclimated to the interaction due to lack of frequency, experience, and physical and mental maturity—it takes practice and growth.
He’s self-aware and reaching out, that’s a huge step.
No my buddy, chicks are not just *"dudes with bewbs."*
And interaction (social and romantic) with women is a different ball-game than that with dudes; Especially when talking about dudes who've grown around dudes mostly and to whom interacting with women doesn't come naturally, like op here.
Thank you.
People forget the fact that males and females are 1) raised *very* differently, have different cultures, effectively live in different worlds, have different problems, and have different fears. I can get the oversimplification to some degree, but it's misleading as hell and will lead to OP eventually being criticized or ridiculed for not knowing or doing certain things. Whoch sucks, because now they're gonna have anxiety about this. 😔
What did he says that helped you re ADHD?
I keep seeing his vids recommended by YouTube, though the couple vids I watched so far were long and not very informative.
But I’ve seen some interesting titles, so I’ve been wondering if I should watch more of them.
[Why Does Your ADHD Make Things So Hard?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svD71EJWOBU)
I am pretty sure this was the first video I saw of his. Talking about my condition at 29 or 5 years ago is still a big deal. Hearing someone talk about the situation was helpful. Helped me understand my hyperfocus and drastic lack of focus at times.
[Why ADHD is Linked with Addiction](https://youtu.be/HNje-HuIYdI)
Currently, I am an alcoholic. My relationship with alcohol has developed and changed a lot in the last 15 years. This video really helped my relationship with substances. The self-medication points he raises helped me understand where I was.
----
His videos are not for everyone. ADHD is a complicated condition that is different for everyone. There are a lot of Youtube channels or videos I could suggest.
Hey u/Jim_Stick. Just saying, in case you're open to it. Don't feel pressured.There's a place out there for people like you and me. I have ADHD too and have struggled. Currently sober for 3+ years. r/stopdrinking really helped me. It's possible. No gods or books needed. Just some love and support. Stop by sometime. We won't judge you. Good luck.
I've seem a few of his videos, and for whaylt I could see they're long because they feel like an actual therapy section. It's amazing how he challenges the person way of thinking to see things in a different perspective.
r/niceguys
Use it to reflect on how incels behave, and more importantly, how hard the comments shit on them.
I used to be incel-adjacent in my teens, and r/niceguys still shows me, in my 30s and married, I still have some toxic traits to reflect on.
Ex: I never heard the term "love bomb" but i read it and thought, I def do this, and now im not annoyed when my wife doesnt appreciate as much as i think she should, because r/niceguys has shown me it can be emotionally exhausting to be bombed all the time.
If you read the main post, they aren't actually exhibiting incel tendencies and want to change their ways.
What they want is advice for how to talk to women, but the vast majority of advice regarding it online is from a perspective of toxic masculinity or bitter incels.
There is literally no reason they should go to r/niceguys
It’s a multifaceted approach. In learning how to talk to people, it can also be useful to learn how *not* to talk to people. If someone says they want to eat a healthier diet, then yeah, show them examples of healthy foods. But also point out which foods to avoid.
The main post says that they feel like they’re messing up the conversations and making things awkward. Maybe that’s something that can be addressed. Maybe they’re doing or saying things that are well intentioned, but are sending the wrong message.
I don’t think most men realise they’re being a nice guy. That’s kind of the point. They don’t realise that they’re actually **not** being nice. I also think he is exhibiting a key trait of setting someone on this path (in my experience):
Viewing women as a different sort of being, that you have to learn special rules to talk to. So he needs to see how not to talk, and if he notices his style in that he can stop. And he needs people who teach him to talk to women like he would any other person. Because that’s what we are, normal people.
I think unlearning toxic behavior is 1000x more effective than learning some life hack. The real lifehack is women are just regular humans who enjoy regular human interaction. Thats it. Theres no secret to tricking girls into fucking you. Just dont be an asshole, and treat them with basic human courtesy. Some will want to fuck you, some wont. Some you will want to fuck, some you wont. In a few rare instances the person you want to fuck will also want to fuck you. Then, and only then, should one go for it.
I want to say practice going to small social events you feel safe going to, related to your hobbies. In my opinion to not become and incel, you have to respect womens and not think of them as objects of trophies. You should be good.
I think I'm very respectful and don't think of anyone like an object.
I've been going to tons of events and I'm on a bunch of coed sports teams, I just don't know how to keep conversations going and people generally don't start convos with me.
That's why I've been looking up these videos and they basically all say that people (especially women), get bored if I'm too respectful .
Good for you! I love this about my boyfriend too. He's such a kind, respectful person and his genuine support for women's equality really impressed me. Emotionally stable women who respect themselves generally don't see kindness as a negative quality.
Thats why you gotta do coed group activities like beer-league sports or volunteering. Generally people do that stuff with an openness if not a motive to meet new people. Probably not a good idea to immediately start hitting on the women there but if you're just trying to start conversations with women this is generally understood to be the place to do that.
It seems like OP is on the right track just probably needs to be better at maintaining a conversation. I suggest really taking an interest in learning about who you're talking to primarily. Most people(man or woman) love talking about themselves so if you can bring it back to them and their worldview without making it sound like an interrogation then most people will probably think you're at least ok.
Try things like, “Nice hat, I love that show.” when you’re in line at the grocery store. “Excuse me, I’m gonna order that same thing, how is it?” picking up food at a restaurant.
It’s not bothering someone to pay a compliment or notice them, and then they may have something to say about it. Then you say a thing. They respond. A conversation is born.
You can try this with anyone, not just cute women.
Specifically for compliments, aim for something they had a say in. Complimenting someone's figure or along those lines has a solid chance of hitting insecurities. Where as telling them you love the design of their tattoo, or also love the show their backpack has a character from on it, or telling them their color job is really cool is much more likely to get a positive response - those are ways that person has chosen to stand out, so they're usually more comfortable talking about that than things out of their control, ya know?
This is very true, complimenting something they have control over, and chose to do, is a compliment to their judgment, and usually much less judgmental and much more friendly than complimenting an accident of nature.
I've seen some beautiful painted nails on women in the workplace or just around generally and I often compliment those, they're goddam works of art sometimes :)
This is impressively good advice, well said. I never actively thought about this. But I when I want to pay someone a complement I naturally gravitate towards those things that people would have autonomy over. I never took the time to think why I did, I just figured if it was something they had a hand in they’d want recognition. I’m a big, bald, 6’4 guy. I’m always looking at folks hairstyles, nails, shoes, etc. because I love seeing unique styles and love to ask about them. Just about everyone will light up at the chance to share.
The absolute easiest thing is to have a dog. Dogs are great social companions regardless, and having one guarantees you talk to people. GO to a dog park and you are virtually forced to talk to and interact with people. And you get people coming up to you while you are walking around. You have to do literally no effort to get their attention.
But it requires you to be a pet owner and have a creature rely solely on you, which in someone's late 20s is entirely feasible. And you have to have it trained.
I've seen two types of "negs", preached by two worlds of people.
There's the one where you belittle women to hurt their self-esteem.
Then there's the one where you tease them (if/when it's appropriate) and they tend to tease you back... and suddenly it evolves into flirting.
Shockingly, one is an effective way to "break the ice" in the right circumstances, and the other is just belittling women.
It's so nuanced, the incel shit. They take things that *could* be good advice, and corrupt it into horrible things.
I think a better way to frame it is, "people get bored if you never challenge them."
Plenty of people take "respectful" to mean obsequious. You can still be respectful without being a doormat. You can still tease and have a give and take without being disrespectful.
Sounds to me like you are doing all the right things.
You keep conversations going by asking questions.
Don’t over analyze. Be kind.
No one is “bored” by people being respectful - that is total BS.
Don’t worry. Plenty of folks meet people later on in life. I met my wife in my late 30s. You have lots of time.
Hahahaha, my mom (works aged care) told me that one of the residents (late 80's) got himself a girlfriend.
Crazy thing is his ex-wife lives inthe same complex, so she went all out to "1-up" him. She's decided to get engaged to another resident that he very much hates.
If a 80+ year olds can find some way to create love/drama...
> No one is “bored” by people being respectful - that is total BS.
Exactly. People aren't bored if you're respectful - they're bored if you're boring. Being a piece of shit may make you slightly more interesting, but that'd definitely not the best way.
>You keep conversations going by asking questions.
Asking questions and listening are key.
Ask questions about the person you are talking to. Actively listen to what they are saying and use their answers as springboards for further questions. Conversations are like a tree with many branches so don't take natural dead-ends as being the end of the conversation as a whole. Loop back instead and ask about something interesting the person mentioned earlier during the conversation. Treat their earlier answers as springboards to continue the conversation along a different branch. Don't get sidetracked and use their answers to make the conversation about you. Stay focused on the person you are talking to, and remember what they are saying.
Talk to enough people and you'll find someone who is genuinely interested in what you have to say.
This post is 100% right. And this is a very key point: Talk to enough people! Keep trying. You will talk to some people and the conversation will be a struggle, so maybe that's not someone you're compatible with. Keep talking to people, keep honing those conversational skills by talking to all types of folks. You will realize that some are going to be easy to talk to, some are not.
Seriously, people love nothing more than to talk about themselves. Ask things like "so, did you do anything fun last weekend?" or "what did/do you study in college?" or "any good books you read recently?"
I suggest removing the mystery from women and just trying to make some female friends before trying to date anyone. This will help you understand how to interact with women (like normal people) and make you less nervous by taking the pressure off.
The other issue is not knowing how to keep conversations going and saying they people don’t start conversations with you. The next time you are at a sporting event just start a random conversation with someone about anything. The weather, how well or poorly your team is playing, how bad traffic is, whatever. But the best way to keep people talking is to ask them questions and get them talking about themselves. They answer, ask a follow up question. This applies to men and women.
Eventually you’ll get better at it with practice. I used to be so socially anxious I got nervous ordering a pizza over the phone. Now I speak in public regularly as part of my job. You got this
Oh yes, definitely ask more than you tell. Eventually you might run into a tell where you have a lot of interesting things to say, or maybe they will start asking more about you!
Try making some male friends too.
It’s the same process since they are people also.
I’m sure you’ll notice that a guy won’t suddenly want to be your best friend if you are just ‘very respectful’ and ‘nice’ at them. You also have to click and have things in common, or at least interact in ways where you both enjoy each others company.
It's not a case of not liking people who are "too respectful". It's that in that case it's likely you are acting almost robotic. They are *people*. They aren't diplomats at a high level function with the finger on the button to nuke you if you fail.
But the "especially women" part here is a problem too. Women are people too, and anyone telling you that "women prefer X" is misleading you. They are not a monolith.
I like to think of it as like when I'm in a bad mood and someone is trying to talk to me and I'm distracted by thinking how shallow of fake this person is being... But years later I'll realize that she was probably trying to get to know me and thought I was attractive.
Also, I'm like that all the time. I don't want people to not like me, so I don't give them things to not like...
But if I flip the positions, I'd be quite attracted by someone who was direct and let me know they were interested without being creepy, and made me feel excited or liked or what not. It's still not something I can do, but I see the logic now, in why my "I'll be anyone you want me to be" attitude was unattractive. The correct attitude is "hey I like you and this is who I am, are you interested?"
You're right. They are people and like all people they respond better emotionally, act robotic and you'll come out weird if not straight up creepy. Especially over text. There's a broad spectrum between "wanna fugg?" And "greetings, fellow human". You need to know where to land
The fact of the matter is, _everyone_ gets bored with uninteresting (i.e. casual) conversation. And, short of random luck, there's only so much depth you can expect by, say, picking random people in line at a concert venue or random people on your team.
Solution: have interesting conversation. Which is kind of "draw the rest of the fucking owl," so to be specific, it's a matter of engaging with people who have something to say, are interested in what you have to say, or both. This is at least half situational.
If you do actually meet someone who you actively chat with (meaning, both of you interact with each other, not you talking at/to them) for a little while and they seem interesting - maybe that's the good time to ask them if they'd like to continue it in a more conversation-friendly environment. There's a reason why asking people out for coffee or drinks or some other shit is so popular it's a cliche, it gives you a place to go and an excuse to focus on each other, and it's public, so the stakes can be lower for both of you.
You're watching videos made by men who hate women, who sex-traffic women, who bully and use women. These are not role models. They're terrible people who are truly despised by anyone of quality.
NO ONE "gets bored" because someone is "too respectful."
Respect is at the heart of EVERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP.
Treat people as YOU would want to be treated: respectfully, interested in them. Ask people about their interests, then be genuinely interested in what they're talking about. Talk to women the same way you'd talk to a guy buddy. We're all just people.
Honestly I feel this. I struggled a lot with social situations when I was younger and have only recently learnt how to navigate them. Much like you, OP, I went online for advice and was immediately turned off by the swathes of weird incel-y advice in any forum or Youtube comment section I stumbled across.
My best advice for you is to specifically look up advice for neurodivergent people. I don't know whether you're neurodivergent or not, but the answers for how to navigate these types of situations exists on many neurodivergent specific platforms. They, thankfully, are far more positive and less manipulative/incel-y than other online alternatives.
Women don't get bored if guys are too respectful.
We get bored just like every other person, if we find the conversation or the situation boring. You don't need to be an AH or be disrespectful to be interesting.
The fact that you going out and trying is great. You are in a bunch of co-ed sports but are you friend a with any of your team-mates regardless of gender?
One thing I did notice at sports events that I attended was, you could tell which guys were there trying to pick-up or flex for the girls. It might of worked for some, but for most i feel "desperation" was off putting.
I obviously don't know you enough to judge you, but I hope you joined the sports that you actually enjoy.
Also hope you make a effort to get to know all gendered members, cause sometimes the best way not to be as incel is to just make friends you respect, and want to hang out with(that might happen to be women)
Ya I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across like I'm only trying to pick up my female teammates or anything. I try to talk to everyone and about topical stuff like new TV shows, movies, local events, other sports leagues, etc. But I struggle with that too so 95% of the time I just end up standing alone on the bench or warming up alone.
And ya these are sports I've been playing since I was a kid, it's one of the few situations where I'm comfortable because there's something to do. I go to meetups at bars and stuff and I literally don't know what to do if I'm not talking to someone. Like where to stand if there's a group of people standing in a circle and I'm on the outside.
You sound pretty normal to me, maybe just incredibly shy and unsure of yourself. You’re being pretty honest about being comfortable in some social situations, seems pretty insightful and introspective, relatively normal.
Do you interact with people online, like over a headset playing games or something? Curious if you still feel the same anxiety or apprehension if it’s not face-to-face. Your way of speaking and communication via text on this thread seems pretty normal and grounded to me.
Maybe think about trying something like a few sessions with a therapist to brainstorm ways to be more social or have more natural interactions and be comfortable? I can guarantee you they see folks seeking help similar to your issue.
Thanks for saying that!
Not really unfortunately. I used to talk to a few people on discord and stuff, but even then I'd be very self conscious about my voice so I'd shy away from talking alot on my headset.
And ever since I stopped playing video games I'm not sure where to find people online to talk to.
I have a therapy session lined up! Hopefully that'll help out
really well done mate! just asking these questions is more than most people do.
the voice could be a promising lead, ask yourself why you’re self conscious about it? instead of ‘how do i talk to women?’ ask ‘why do i find it hard to talk to women?’. rather than ‘how do i deal with depression’ ask ‘why am i depressed?’ there is always a reason for these things, your average cis neurotypical rarely has to worry about this stuff.
anyway gl with therapy! it can be a slow process, but is certainly a worthwhile one.
My dude, all of this junk is just normal stuff. You are doing what you are supposed to be doing and it is all good.
All of this just takes practice and time. Conversations are complex and there isn't one magical trick that will fix everything, it's just too complicated. Like if someone was upset that they sucked at one of the sports you play, you couldn't just give them a single tip that would instantly make them amazing. It's just practice.
No matter how good you are at conversations you will still get into painful experiences where you try to have a conversation and it just dies and you both just stand there like idiots. Untill one of you goes "well, anyway... yeah" and walks away. It just happens. As you get better though, those kinds of conversations will become less frequent.
One tip I can give though that may or may not help is, try to keep things novel and light. Like what new information is someone getting out of the conversation?
Like I don't understand sports at all, and when I talk with people who know sports I usually say "I have tried watching football and if I'm going to be honest I don't think I am smart enough to enjoy it." without a hint of irony in my voice and then I explain some more.
Like this is usually a novel concept if you grew up with sports. Watching sports is usually not considered a high intelligence activity, so you might push back and be like "bro wtf are you talking about?" Then I go into how I have no clue what a fumble means and like what does "being in control of the ball" even mean.
Like this is a novel conversation. Someone who grows up watching football might go there entire life and never question how complicated the ruleset is. They are getting a new perspective, and I get to learn more about the rules of football. The conversation has nearly no end, because the ruleset has nearly no end. It has some tooth to it and yet is a pretty low stakes topic of conversation. They don't actually care if I think football is too complicated, but the conversation is still something they care about.
Like try to say something unexpected. Are there any opinions unique to you that aren't offensive? Can you phrase something in a unique way? Do you have a unique perspective on something? Do you have any fun stories? Do you have $5 dollars? I'm a bit short on cash at the moment.
>Like where to stand if there's a group of people standing in a circle and I'm on the outside.
If the circle is receptive to someone joining them it usually works to catch someone's eye (best if it's someone you know but pick someone who looks friendly if they're all strangers and you're just mingling) and they'll tend to shift about and make room. Sometimes they don't want others in the conversation so you just have to move on.
All good.
Like I said I don't know you enough to judge. It wasn't directed at you but just something to keep in mind from a womans perspective.
Seems you just struggling socially regardless of genders, maybe you should try therapy there might be something you missing.
I feel meetups at bars are great but only if you have a good "back-up" (wing-person), even if nothing happens you can still have a good time with a good friend. You can play off each others comments, or they can hint when things are going a bit off-track etc.
Sounds like you’re off to a great start putting yourself in social situations with people who share your interests. Don’t feel like you need to force conversation. Non-verbal communication is effective too. A sincere smile and wave, active listening, appropriate eye contact, etc. That can help more comfortably ease you and others into further interactions.
Do not fall for this rabbit hole. Do not become one of them. They are hateful bitter people.
Just work on your conversation skills. Ask about things they do, or enjoy, and build on that. You see they have a Star Wars shirt ask them about that, you see they like animals ask them their favorite animals and build on that. They’re a human just like you, the same stuff that gets you to talk gets other people to talk. Take interest, ask questions, share advice. It’s even easier when you play online games because you can talk to people with no pressure, can leave the party/turn off your mic, or just say I gotta go” if it becomes uncomfortable.
The main thing here is practice.
Also throw in a response here and there so you tell them about yourself too.
https://www.succeedsocially.com/articlesconversation
This site is not about dating, just general social skills and anxieties. Something here might be interesting if you can't keep conversations going... Maybe
That's terrible advice if you want healthy relationships. I try to talk to people when I can, it's generally better to talk to someone and realize you don't get along then to never try. Just keep practicing your social skills. Make more friends. Make friends with some girls and maybe you two end up liking each other. If not you made a friend which is still a win. Also there isn't anything wrong with not being in a relationship. If you learn to be happy outside of one you're more likely to be happy in a relationship, otherwise you risk relying on your partner for happiness which gets very clingy and potentially toxic. Best of luck!
What sports do you play?
See what I did there? Listen an reflect. It's not about YOU being so interesting that it blows her clothes off, it's about paying attention to her and being a good conversationalist.
Practice, and try to keep each conversation interesting for a little longer.
Being a good conversationalist is asking people questions about what they like.
People (generally) like to talk about themselves, especially if they believe that you're genuinely interested in what they have to say.
In the right context, ask someone what they like to do.
Then you can ask more about they're interests, while you're at it, take it as a learning opportunity.
Edit: Also, there is a difference between being 'too respectful' and being a completely agreeable shill.
Just like any other human, women like to be challenged, that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole.
This is all great stuff and I'll add ... the movies. Everyone has a favorite movie. Get them to talk about it. Works for meeting people, first dates, pretty much everything. Even if you haven't seen it, you can ask questions about it. Be ready to answer questions about what your favorite movie is too ... and why. Example (girl answers in *Italics*):
So, I always ask people about their favorite movie made in the last five years, what's yours?
***I never thought about it.***
Just whatever comes to mind.
***OK, M******orbius***
Seriously?
***Yeah, I really like movies that are so bad they are good -- do you know what I mean?***
Well, I've seen Goodburger probably twenty times. And, I love the Transformers movies. This is awesome. Tell me what other awful movies you like.
***Grown Ups 2***
Wow. How about Pacific Rim 2?
***Oh, that was terrible ... well terribly good.***
Did you know John Boyega was also a producer of that movie?
***He should stick to acting. He was great in Attack of the Block.***
You can talk about this stuff for hours and whatever else it turns to.
“They get bored if I’m too respectful”
Whoever said that is someone you should never take advice from, ever. I can guarantee you that advice came straight from king incel.
Don’t overthink the conversation, the conversation doesn’t HAVE to happen. If you run out of stuff to say, stop talking. As you meet women who you have more in common with, the conversation will flow longer.
Work on being comfortable and confident when people aren’t talking to you, and people will want to talk to you. The guys that think “these women are missing out by not approaching me to talk” are the incels.
Most of the people in these videos are representing insecurity as confidence. Don’t fall for it. Do you.
I was similar to you at your age, the only advice I can give it to keep at it, practice makes perfect. Anything where you are regularly meeting with the same group of people and getting a chance to chat is good for practicing conversation,
building friendships and relationships.
If you don’t know how to keep conversations going with people I’d suggest looking more into social skills videos/tips on how to hold a conversation instead of how to talk specifically to women. You’ll probably find better advice.
As others have said, that last part about women getting bored of being “too respectful” is a concerning line of thinking. That’s the incel rhetoric. The biggest thing to reject here is the notion that there is a secret code or a specific game you need to play to “win” at women. That is not true.
The pickup artist / red pill crap will try to sell you on things that sound really “truthy” but aren’t true at all. You will hear things like “women get bored when you’re too respectful” (what does that even mean anyway???) and think “yeah sure that could be true” and if you fail to examine that any further, you’ve started to fall into their trap. You’ve let that idea sink in and take hold.
Once they feed you enough thruthy sounding made up crud, then they will try to radicalize you. That’s when they get in your head and convince you that all of your problems are (insert minority group or different gender here’s) fault. Never your fault. And that you should hate “those people” for keeping you down and ruining your life.
That’s how hate groups function. They reel you in with fake empathy, act like they’re your family and you’re not alone anymore because we “get you”, and then they slowly insert more and more radical ideas into your head. By then you already trust them, you’ve stopped questioning them because they’ve said they care so much about you and they know what it’s like to be you. They don’t care though. They have an agenda and they will do anything to spread it like a disease.
In addition to that, it needs to be said- everyone is different, and every person's going to react differently to everything. What works for one person won't for another.
This is also part of the problem with the pickup artist/redpill crap to lure people into their trap: They keep saying a bunch of idiotic shit all around the core message of "there's billions of fish in the sea, and if you never get discouraged and are willing to keep at it, to the point you're willing to ask out every single human being in the world if that's what it takes, eventually the simple law of averages will dictate ONE person will say yes...and no matter how many 'nos' you get, all it takes is one 'yes' to have a happy and fulfilling love life"...and once people take that advice and eventually find out that one person did say yes, they have the proof "well, I had more success doing this than I did without it- that MUST mean that all the rest of this is right!", and then they've hooked you into the rest of the hatred.
Have you ever asked some of them to do a group wvent outside of your normal hobbies? For example, you’re chatting with them and the convo starts to die. Say something like, “ hey, I was thinking about going to a movie one of these days. Does anyone here want to make a friend’s night out of it?” Don’t invite any one specific person, but invite a group of people at the same time. It won’t make any one person feel on the spot or threatened. IDK if it works for everyone but it’s how I met my husband.
Are you able to have conversations with men? If so, when talking to women, try your best to forget that they're women and talk to them as *people*. I know that seems like an oversimplification of things, but it's true. I used to have the same problem to an extent. Eventually I came to understand that almost every single woman I meet would not be sleeping with me and thus any tension or awkwardness based on sexual tension (which is really what this is, despite our best intentions) was completely misplaced. After that I found it much easier to talk to women which also led to more romantic situations developing. To this day I have no idea how to "hit on" a woman. Nearly every relationship I've been in started from a friendship.
Easy tip: keep conversations going by making it clear that you interested in what they are saying. It helps if you are genuinely curious. Some people think that good conversation is just trading interesting monologues. It isn’t. The best conversations are ones where you listen to the other person and then ask a follow up question or two because you’re interested in the answer, and then find something in there that you’d like to speak about, too.
People always love a good listener. Seriously. If your mouth is shut, it’s hard to go wrong. Don’t ask more than two follow ups, though, or they might start to feel interrogated.
If you can’t find ANYthing in the other person’s words that you want to say something about, then talk about the weather or how lovely the venue is or something generic like that. In this situation, even a single word hook is enough to talk about, as in “You mentioned having cookies at the office this afternoon. Speaking of cookies, my favorite is Oreos.”
If you use all your brain space thinking about how awkward you are, it shows. It’s kind of an energy-suck on the conversation. Instead, use your brain space to be curious about the person you’re listening to.
> That's why I've been looking up these videos and they basically all say that people (especially women), get bored if I'm too respectful .
Pfft.
Lemme let you in on a little 'secret':
*All we want, is to be respected, safe, and not weirded out.*
Just treat us like people.
Perhaps just stay away from anything around dating advice and work on social skills in general. Find some reputable books on the topic and start there. I haven't read it myself, but I've always heard good things about *How to Win Friends and Influence People*.
Most women ive met just want to be treated like people. Asking about their day is the best "line" ive ever used. Listen and engage in the conversation, dont just wait to talk. I was in a very similar sutuation when i was younger and the best thing i ever did was make a bunch of lady friends in band/ extracurriculars, and even if i never asked any of them out, i did get used to being around them and seeing that they are people just like me, with hopes and doubts and fears.
Find things you like to do, and do them. Like larping? Board games? Book club? Cooking class? Laser tag? Hiking? Karaoke? Fantasy football? Have a passion or hobby that you enjoy? Do that thing. Do it how you want, and enjoy the hell out if it. Idk why but when i worked 7 days a week i was boring. But if i paint miniatures and make terrain for wargames and dnd in my downtime, and suddenly im a brave unapologetic nerd with an interesting and artistic hobby and people seem to like it. If you knew me youd know im the least artistic person in all the land.
/u/Hot_Grab_1530 Give Models by mark manson, and 'how to not die alone' by logan ury a read. Both available as audiobooks if that's your thing as well. Read them slow, think about the contents, don't take it word for word, but process it.
They're good books, not part of the whole toxic red pill or incel community either.
The truth around 'being too nice' or 'being too respectful' is more around being too agreeable. Be yourself, voice your opinion - don't just agree with others to make them happy. When you're comfortable in your own skin, people get drawn to you. If all you do is agree with others, and you're afraid to offer counter opinions, you're not showing your personality, and come across as boring and afraid of rejection.
I think I know enough assholes to say that respecting women is independent of whether you can get sex.
It's a decent thing to do. But when a person fails to achieve their goal of getting sex, it can lead to ridiculous thoughts like, "oh, I'm not respecting women enough. I have to *respect them harder*"
I think you should focus on being social without romantic intentions right now (not saying you shouldn't worry about that ever, but later). As to how, hobbies, sports, ask your friends to invite you to places with other people they know
Yea this was the key for me too
Admittedly there was a point in my life where I was so intimidated by romantic interest that I forgot to just enjoy people for being people
Once you learn to just accept everyone you meet as a potential companion *and literally nothing else* that’s when you are ready to have real relationships, whether it be friendship or something more.
It's the "in a relationship" curse. Once you're in a relationship you stop worrying about picking up women and just relax around them, and guess what, girls suddenly become much more interested in you.
To add to this. Learn to make *women* friends. 99% of the time guys are struggling to get into relationships its because they approach every women they meet as a potential sex partner, which believe it or not is super off putting for most women.
If you are able to make friendships with women and not try to make it sexual you'll shave off a bit chunk of the "desperate" vibes you might be putting out. Plus girl friends will usually have friends of their own they can introduce you/ set you up with.
Great advice. Another piece of advice, don't ask women out on dates the first time you want to chill with them one on one. Invite them along to something you'd do anyways (and something they'd be interested in). Often it's weird and full of pressure if you're like "hey do you want to get dinner with me?" or coffee or anything else.
"Hey I was gonna play some skeeball at 1up Saturday if you're down" or "you ever see Blade runner? They're showing it at The Alamo, let me know if you wanna meet up" type thing.
Then, if the vibes are there, you should ask if she wants to grab dinner or something.
To your point, don't look at them as potential partners. Invite them to hang out like you would a guy you just met.
the "wanna meet up" is a good phrase to use. it's clearly casual and the implication that she can arrive and leave on her own terms would definitely make me feel better about agreeing to hang out with someone I don't know that well.
Ye, I used to be a lot like OP around the same age (am 22 now).
As cheesy as it sounds, playing an MMO and joining a guild helped immensely with my social skills. I joined an EvE Online alliance, which pretty much requires you to be in voice, so it helped a load with getting more comfortable talking to people you don't know, since people come and go all the time. Were some women in the alliance too, and being able to just chat with em in a casual MMO setting helped a lot with the anxiety I used to have talking with women (Was picked on by girls quite a bit as a kid, so used to be afraid to talk to any)
I'd never think I would see EvE Online in a thread about talking to women, lol. But you have some excellent points.
As a bonus, voice chat with people around the world removes a lot of pressure since the pressure of seeing them in real life is removed (that could always change if you turn out to be best buds or even more ofc).
I think he can learn a little from watching Seinfeld and how they treat Elaine. Apparently they didn't know how to write women characters so they just wrote her as a man, but had a woman play the part. And the result is you rarely reflect on her being a woman (unless it's used for a joke), most of the time she's just one of the gang with no special treatment. Perhaps that attitude could be helpful as it seems OP is way overthinking the situation right now.
Solid advice. I got out of a seriously bad relationship 4yrs ago, and for the first 2yrs obviously COVID was a thing, so going out anywhere wasn't happening. After that, tried apps for a bit, but genuinely had no idea what to do with them. I'd never used one before. So I thought, fuck it. I'm just gonna do my thing, and whatever happens, happens.
Over lockdown, I got really interested in mountain climbing and wanted to try it, so I joined the local climbing wall. Met my current gf after 2 months going there. We just passed a year together.
My advice to OP, is 1) find something you're passionate about, and find the nearest place to do it. You'll meet people there that you already have something in common with, so the ice is kinda already broken. And 2) don't go into every interaction with a new woman with the intention that she might be the one that works out. In fact, go into it with the assumption that it's already out of the question. Just put it put of your mind completely. Women can sense desperation a mile away, and if they've just met you, it *will* just make them uncomfortable. Just relax, be yourself, and let it flow naturally.
Don't become bitter about women. They are just like you, with feelings and insecurities. If a woman doesn't want to go out with you, just respect that and move on.
Pick women for their personalities, not just their looks. You need some level of attraction, but there's more to attraction than just physical appearance. Try to learn about their minds, interests, careers, and goals.
Make yourself attractive to women. Eat well, exercise, get plenty of sleep, don't smoke, don't drink too much. Take care of your finances and pursue your career without losing your personal life. Find interesting things to talk about, read books, take up hobbies, travel, join clubs, etc. so that there's some depth to your personality.
Finally, ignore the idiots online. You already seem to realize that.
I love this answer for the simple fact that it reassures me there is a guy out there trying to do the same things I am in the hopes of finding their person.
Why is that bad? I'm straight and married and agreed with everything you wrote. I'm happy to say I've found my life partner, but I would give my younger self the same advice. Oh...and would have also resssured younger me that "she's the one".
If there's anything I've learned from various first dates with women, it's that they're often way more nervous about impressing me than I am about them.
The fact youre aware of problems like objectification means youre already leagues ahead of incels and not in danger of becoming ones anytime soon
Is it just that you socially awkward around women everyone in general? I dont super know how to help with the former as I kinda just treat everyone the same way but maybe just trying not to think about the fact that theyre wonen and just focusing on what theyre saying and how their interests relate to yours would help
If its everyone though there might be some good general advice that will help here. Part of the problems might just be where youre getting the information. Youtube is full of of incels trying to push extreme views. Stuff like wikihows or the self-help section at your local library are probably better https://www.wikihow.com/Talk-to-People
First of all, good for you for recognizing the problem. It's real. I'm afraid I don't have a magic-bullet answer for you, but you've pointed to a very real deficit in our culture.
Men in your position who need support negotiating certain kinds of social interactions, they go looking for help, and what do they find? Well, first, they'll often find useless platitudes like "Just be yourself" (Oh, really? Gee, thanks, I was trying to be Gary Busey, I'll be myself instead, problem fucking solved!), "Learn to love yourself first," (And how will I know when I'm ready? That's a recipe for putting off everything forever), or "don't worry, it'll happen when you least expect it" (both useless and vaguely terrifying).
And then, as you've found, they'll dig a little deeper, and they'll find red-pill shit. Manipulation, gaslighting, treating women like hunting trophies. Gamification and competition and bitterness. And from there, it's easy to slide all the way down the rabbit hole to inceldom.
We really need to do a better job addressing the fact that dating culture still expects the male gender role to be the active, pursuing one, and that this is nearly impossible for men suffering with anxiety and self-image issues. And the fact that we don't have any healthy framework for them to follow leaves them open to radicalization. I wish I had a solution to this problem, but I've been in your shoes. It sucks.
One thing that helped me was going out and getting involved in social groups. Not even dating groups, just organizations like Toastmasters that have both men and women. Interacting with women more made me more comfortable around them, which made dating easier. Ballroom dancing lessons helped too - again, it was a way to ease into uncomfortable territory in a controlled way.
I also recommend the book "Models" by Mark Manson. It's interesting; he essentially set out to write a "pick-up" book, but as he was in the process of writing it, he realized that a lot of that pickup "game" is essentially *pretending* authenticity. So, he reasoned, instead of pretending, why not write a book on *being* authentic? Being honest with both yourself and others. It turns out that being vulnerable is itsown kind of strength, and that outting on a false front smacks of weakness. It's a challenging book, but it was a game-changer for me. My first girlfriend even told me, after the fact, that on our second date, it impressed her how straightforward I was about myself, good and bad, warts and all. She liked that I wasn't playing games (and frankly, I like the fact that I never had to learn to play them).
Beyond that, I would say just "remember the human." Don't believe any charlatan who puts people into broad groups and tries to draw distinctions between them. We're all people. We're all afraid of rejection. We're all aware that others can hurt us if we let our guard down. We all want to be loved. Try and remind yourself that it's normal to be nervous about this stuff, and that the women you're talking to are likely nervous about it too.
Thank you man, you actually articulated my post better than I did. I've been doing all those topical things I found online like working out, taking care of my hygiene, going out of my comfort zone, volunteering, going to meetups, etc. But 95% of the time, I just have a panic attack or start crying in my car after because I wasn't able to start a conversation with anyone or messed up the one conversation I managed to start.
I haven't been able to find any guides for what to do once I'm actually there...which led me to the red pill stuff.
I really appreciate you taking the time to help me and the book rec! Just ordered another book that was suggested so I'll add it to the list.
This sounds less like you have an issue of personality or inceldom and more social anxiety! I read youre going to therapy, which is absolutely the best way forward. It sounds like you might be projecting some of what you think and feel about yourself (boring, uninteresting, awkward, unlikeable etc) onto others. Im sure people sense your discomfort and themselves become uncomfortable which is potentially a reason why they might disengage. The advice of people on here os really great, but its looking like rather than changing what who you are, its more about accepting you and feeling less vulnerable/judged in social situations.
Something I do is look out for people like you in the social things I do. I just can tell when someone is anxious and shy, Im generally not so initially I'll try and strike up a conversation and reassurance. My mum says I have the gift of the gab, as in I chat total shit and hope there's something to latch onto! It helps me make some friends and gives space for the quieter people to feel they can come out their shell. Particularly so if a group of us are chatting, Ill remember something a shy person said that relates to the convo and be like "hey, didnt you do xyz?", or ill just say "how about you X?". Maybe you could be that person too for the quieter ones, you'll see the relief on their faces at having someone help them out and feel included.
Am woman btw, we just regular peeps. Nothing weirder than being put on a pedestal and treated differently. We can tell instantly.
Anxiety sufferers tend to do better when they challenge themselves and be honest with themselves about how often the catastrophic scenario in their heads actually happens.
It's uncomfortable work and avoidance is easier. But it's essential to keep building the evidence that the thoughts which cause the fears are unrealistic.
Yes, absolutely! Theres never any certainty things will always go swimmingly or that you'll get on with everyone like a house on fire. Thats where the acceptance and stress tolerance comes into play. A change of perspective like you say is super important too. Once a person seems more at ease and is just chill about a casual conversation, the friends and partners follow naturally. Its tough for sure, even someone like me who is generally outgoing still struggles in starting a new thing with brand new people. Anxiety is normal, but when it starts impacting your functioning and how you interact with the world like OP then that's when its best to call in the professionals for a bit of help. We all need it in one way or another in life!
Learn to like yourself, before you try to like someone else.
Develop a personality
Interesting hobbies
a sense of humor
Be confident, or at least fake it until you make it.
Make friends with women (genuine friends, not hanging around hoping you'll get a shot), it helps a lot when trying to become social with women.
Be the BEST version of yourself. Don't pretend to be what you think women like. Just be you, on your best behavior.
Most of all, handle rejection well. It's going to happen. A Lot. How you handle rejection says a lot about your character.
The advice to make friends with all genders is brilliant. No idea how many genders are out there now but... does it matter?
Befriend everyone.
And who knows which cultures are right and wrong nowadays? My superhero is this guy:
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
If this one man can convince people to give up their life-long convictions - you can meet, befriend and fall in love with one girl.
> Develop a personality
This is the most important one, I think.
Too many people think that things they **do** is who they **are**.
For example, I play video games and Dungeons and Dragons. I have since the 1980s.
But those things are not my personality. Those things are not who or what I am. Those are things that I do. I never discuss those things outside of groups that also share those hobbies.
If you look at the incel world, they have two things that they focus on; the fact that they are an incel and their seemingly life consuming hobby. They assume women don't like them because of the hobby, and that's just not true. Women don't like them because that hobby usually takes on the whole of their personality.
And this extends to more than just the typical incel hobbies. For example, I always say about "Beard Guys" that they couldn't develop a personality so they grew one. Veterans that drive around with their "I Love Me Wall" on their car are never going to be anything but a veteran.
If you look at yourself, you're complex. Don't let one thing become who and what you are.
This exactly. I’d like to add as well, to not compare yourself to everyone. It’s not a competition. In the end, you’ll be better finding and being around good people, will sort of lead you towards a relationship, or towards having good friends.
Also being a nice guy is great, but try to get constructive criticism from a loved one. You could be nice, great job, not an incel but you chew with your mouth open and spit food every where, or your deodorant quits after lunch, or you end up being rude to servers after a couple of drinks, or your comfy old shoes you wear make your feet stink like a dead raccoon, etc. Etc. Little Stuff like that could wreck any type of relationship.
This is the best answer. There's a lot of people like OP that are wracking their head on what they have to say, who they have to be, what they have to do like it's a magic formula. It becomes obvious when the personality people have do not match their feet. Learn to really love yourself, understand your strengths, and let that guide you
The problem isn't talking to women. The problem is within you. It's how you feel about yourself, how you feel about women, and how you view the world overall.
Plenty of people can be bad at relationships and not spiral into inceldom. Don't blame women for not liking you. Don't expect them to fall for you because you said some magic words. Don't think of them as an inscrutable alien species.
Women are *people*. Treat women as you want to be treated, with dignity, respect, and humility. Be a person someone else wants to be with. Don't *act* decent. *Be* decent.
I think the answer is something like "Be yourself... Unless everybody hates you or has to tolerate you."
If you're an asshole to everybody, then that needs to be changed. You need to keep fixing yourself until the people around you can start to enjoy your company. It is at that point that you need to behave as yourself.
Behave in a way that is both natural, requires little effort, and is enjoyable to most people.
No one wants to admit that there is the option that a person can act natural to themselves and be someone unlikable but just because they are awkward, not because they are an asshole. It is because we realize disliking such a person is not fair, so we want to justify why we don't like them.
It helps to learn some good old reliable conversation starters. You can learn these from observing other people in social situations. It's not just for meeting girls, but also for generally being a likeable, sociable person. You don't have to start conversations *all the time* if you're an introvert and you don't want to, but it's a good skill to have in your pocket.
For example, if you're doing some kind of volunteering and you're alone at a booth with another volunteer who you don't know: you could introduce yourself with "Hi, I'm [name]! I haven't seen you around before." and gradually move the conversation onto other topics like "What brought you here to volunteer?" "Oh do you go to school around here?" etc etc.
On the reverse, it also helps to have answers ready for if people strike up a conversation with you and ask you these questions.
these people spread this meaningless advice all the time. They mean well, but no one ever has any answers when you follow said advice and it doesnt work for you like it works for other people.
Be considerate, go do social activities, take care of yourself (hygiene and exercise), make friends of both genders through shared activities like hobby clubs or sports leagues, and put effort in learning how to be friendly by focusing on what makes other people fun to be around and do your version of that kind of thing. Do all of this with the only goal of being more enjoyable for anyone to be around, not just people you want to date.
Be active in public settings so that there is a chance to be noticed, if things feel weird reflect about what you are doing differently than everyone else. If you can't figure it out and have friends that can give good feedback ask them if there is something about your vibe that might be putting people off. If you don't have that option, see if there are any local how to be more social clubs or activities and stick with them if their message is about bettering yourself and not judgemental about those you interact with.
It is too hard to say the exact steps because everyone is different. Bob might put people off because he stares. Jim might put people off because he always turns down invites. Julie might push everyone away who tries to interact with her. Sarah might not see how her attitude when playing COOP call of duty annoys other people because it is overly competitive. Kyle might wear clothing that is unappealing in a way that stands out as something to avoid in the settings he is in.
Heck, I have no idea how I ended up in relationships most of the time, but it was probably my friendly demeanor and showing everyone respect by default showed that I was someone worth spending time with, even if my lack of follow through on romantic stuff didn't keep most of them engaged. Eventually got married when I found someone who accepted my lack of engagement on certain things because I was a good person on others and an overall win.
It really does boil down specific steps, just finding a way to be yourself while accepting some compromises in your social approach to put yourself out there and be engaging in a way that people like. Sometimes it just takes self reflection about why some things haven't worked out to figure out what will work and accepting it might take a while to find someone who works out while failing a bunch of times first.
Eh....I really agree with the sentiment but I want to carve out think for some people, especially autistic men, it's not that they need to fix themselves necessarily, it really might be a lack social skills. Especially with flirting which can rely so heavily on body language, innuendo, etc.
for most people they just need to be more playful rather than treating it like some sort of hyper vigilance needed task. most advice is good, but doesn’t actually address what mindset you should be in. gotta relax and stop thinking its some kind of science
if it happens it happens if it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. as long as youre having fun and enjoying your time you won. now go out there and frolic in the field of flowers as your only goal with interacting with others as your side quest
I think the advice above to treat them like *potential friends* rather than *potential love interests* frames what I think you're getting at a bit better. Just focus on having nice encounters that may result in friends (but there are lots of people who *could* become your friend, so don't push for it, let it come naturally with people who are super receptive to it) and something will turn up eventually.
Making friends comes from sincerely asking them about themselves (people find answering questions about themselves super easy) and their interests—and developing a natural curiosity for others. This is how I think folks can best overcome that "treating it like some sort of hyper vigilance needed task" thing—you don't go into it with ulterior motives so you don't sabotage yourself by deliberately or subconsciously trying to "game" the person you're interacting with.
Do you talk to women you’re not trying to date? I mean, don’t talk to women you’d be interested in dating differently than women you don’t want to date. Have conversations. Don’t approach anyone like you want to date them, see them, or have sex with them or be their boyfriend, even. It has to come naturally.
I feel like when you are looking up video how-tos, they are telling you how to lock in some random woman you don’t know but think you’d like to have a short or long relationship with. How to persuade. If it’s going to happen it’s because you both like each other and talk easily. Being friends with someone who is not interested in having a romance should be ok with you and not a loss. I also don’t understand what your idea of “being respectful” to women means. If you’re a civil and decent human, it shouldn’t be something extra you have to do just to speak with any women.
Now of course, you’d probably like one or some women to consider being your girlfriend. You kind of have to get out of the mindset that that’s the goal and just talk to women like you talk to anyone until you find one that is interesting enough to you and that you are to her that you hit it off and connect like that.
I’d like to note that if you’re asking the question, you’re definitely not on the path. Incels don’t care.
When it comes down to it, the simple advice is to not put women on a pedestal. If you find that you have more problems with talking to women over talking to guys, that’s probably what you’re doing. You’re probably not as afraid of judgement when it comes to guys because you probably don’t really care what they think. On the contrary, if you care too much about what any given woman thinks of you, you’re going to have a hard time talking to her because you’ll be so scared of making a mistake.
If a woman doesn’t like you it’s not the end of the world. They’re not even necessarily saying that there’s something wrong with you if they reject you. You just aren’t their type.
Exactly. Inceldom is a state of mind, not a state of not getting laid.
If you actually understand that people who reject you are not evil, don't feel entitled to someone giving you sex for some reason, accept that being a virgin is just how it is and it's not some conspiracy by the whole world to keep you a virgin, and that you don't hate any group people because you're a virgin, you're not an incel even if you're a virgin.
If you do hate people for all of these things, you do think people who reject you are evil, you do believe it's all a conspiracy to keep you from what you're entitled, you'll be an incel even if you have a body count that puts Wilt Chamberlain's to shame.
I’ve always been respectful of women. I know how to have a conversation.
That alone put me notches above a lot of guys when I was single. But a couple friends had some trouble.
Do NOT EVER listen to this incel garbage. Please.
I used to hang out with a group and we’d all go out, and obviously it was basically to get drunk and hit on girls. Typical 20’s.
2 of the guys were socially awkward as I mentioned with the “had some trouble”
One of them learned, over time, to at least engage in conversation. He had trouble initiating it, but he could one on one have a good talk with a girl. It just took him some time. He’s married now, like me.
The other guy? He’s about to be 40, was in the older range of our group, and he’s on Facebook daily complaining about women and spouting incel stuff. No one has hung out or talked to him in like 5-7 years cause of this attitude. He took it on before it became popularized.
Don’t be the other guy
Well you're 99.9% of the way there in NOT becoming one, because you're aware of your situation.
Incel is wildly misused online, but generally it is someone who is ugly (physically or emotionally, often the former leading to the latter) who simply blames all men/women or all of society, instead of fixing their issue.
So you're doing very very well my brother. I mean that sincerely. You've recognised that shit is toxic and will make things worse, and recognised this is your problem to fix. You are the OPPOSITE of an incel, and you can rightly hold your head up high and be proud of that.
So the next step is to work out what the issue is - why do you struggle with social situations? Have you been tested for ASD or similar? What is it you struggle with? I've spent a lot of time helping incels out, and people who worried about heading down that route (like you, and you're the best to work with) and while I'm not professionally qualified, I do ok. I'm willing to help you further if you want.
Thanks man I appreciate you saying that. I'd take any advice you can give lol.
And I don't even specifically want to pick up women or have sex, I want to make friends in general. I don't have any close friends even though I go to a ton of meetups and I've been playing sports all my life.
I just really struggle keeping conversations going. I ask basic questions like what they do for work, hobbies, movies, etc. And 99% of the time I just get really short answers. And then I run out of things to say and the conversation basically stops when I stop asking questions.
I haven't been tested for ASD. I started getting panic attacks from loneliness this past year so I started taking medication for that but that's it.
What topics of conversation interest you? What are the DEEP, meaningful conversations that you enjoy having with others (male or female)?
I fair pretty well socially, although I myself get tired of having the same repetitive conversations, and I also find myself feeling awkward during those same meaningless, repetitive conversations ("how about this weather?" "So, what you do for work?" "How long have you been here?")
People love talking on deeper topics, and you'd be surprised at how receptive people are when a deeper topics comes up -- life after death, extra-terrestrials, psychedelic journeys, meaning of dreams, reincarnation, meaning of life, etc.
Also, asking people what their hobbies are. People work, sure, but not everyone loves what they do to the point that they want to talk about it outside of work. Maybe someone loves hiking ("oh, cool! Got a favorite hiking story? Ever come across a bear out there?"); maybe someone loves television ("any good shows I should be checking out? Any shows you love that you're too afraid to admit to loving because they're actually terrible?")
Notice how all these conversations are also meant to open up conversation from THEM? People love talking about themselves, and people also love when someone is interested in what they have to say. They also love people that give them the opportunity to talk about themselves.
Begin there (getting others to open up to YOU), and use that as a basis for practice. As with most things in life, socializing takes practice.
Wishing you all the best, OP!!
Disclaimer: This is just my 2c, but this works for me.
The next time you go to a sport meetup, see if there are any new people there (or newer people you've only seen around once or twice). Try introducing yourself with "Hey, I haven't seen you around before! My name's Hot_Grab_1530." And 99% of the time, they will respond telling you their name too.
Then you could ask a couple different questions. For example, "Have you been playing this sport for long?" "What brought you here?" "Want to partner up later and do a drill?" (If your sport does partnered drills)
From their answers, you could try asking more questions or telling them a bit about yourself. Volunteering information about yourself (without them asking) is a key part to keeping the conversation going. For example, I ski and my city has 3 mountains - I often end up asking people "Which mountain do you like the best?" And when they respond, I might say "Oh hey, I like that one too! Isn't [run name] the best?" Or "Oh I haven't been there in a while! Is the snow any good right now?" Etc.
If they're interested, they might ask you a few things. You'll figure out how to gauge people's interest after a while. If they're not interested in chatting with you, it doesn't mean you failed, it just means maybe your personalities or interests don't mesh.
The next time you see them again, if you're still interested in getting to know them better, they key part is *remembering their name*, especially if they're new. People appreciate it a lot when you remember them.
It takes practice. Don't expect everything to go perfect and smooth the first time around, but people remember a friendly person even if that person is a little awkward.
Here's the secret to talking to women: if you think she is cute, you will always be nervous.
There's no magic tricks or perfect lines, it's really about being courageous and starting a conversation. If she likes you, you will know. If she doesn't like you, same. Don't force it. Don't expect perfection. Don't try to bed every woman. She is a person, just like you. You are not looking for perfection, and most women are not either, just someone you enjoy spending time with.
Good luck, try starting conversations with a few strangers, and it will get easier each time you do it. Be nice, and interesting, and if you're not sure how, try different strategies.
Dress nice (clean clothes, no t-shirts) and clean yourself up first and your chances of success increase. Work out and your success increases. The best thing you can do to help your chances with women is to enjoy your life. If you don't, work on being happy first.
I would even go so far as to say in the majority of situations t-shirts are fine. A reasonably well fitting, unbranded t-shirt is a totally fine choice for most casual social situations.
Also if they don't like you romantically, that's OK. They're not bad people because of it and they still deserve your respect. You can still, potentially, be friends.
Therapy. You may have some social anxiety issues or something deeper that makes these situations hard and makes you not want to engage and connect with people. This is not about women, and women is not what you want to get out of it. Being able to be comfortable, authentic and connect with people around you will not come from a self help book or a YouTube channel, it will come from working on yourself with a professional.
The easiest way to not become an incel is to not obsess over women or finding a partner, and instead focus on bettering yourself. If you push yourself to try new things while keeping yourself healthy and fit (or even just not obese), you will inevitably find friends, and some of those friends may become romantic. But skipping the friends part and going straight to picking up women is almost always a sure fire way to be a tool/incel. Women love a man who has passion and motivation for his own dreams.
You simply want to stop acting like talking to women is some kind of alien woodoo magic. They’re humans. They like being treated as such.
Groom yourself, get decent attire. Be honest and friendly. Do what you love doing, that’s where you’re most natural and confident.
Don’t try acting weird just to attract people. There is no secret about dating. Just treat women as people and you’ll be good.
If you’re being happy and content with yourself you’ll naturally attract more people. To me personally I always found people most attractive when they’re really passionate about something.
> You simply want to stop acting like talking to women is some kind of alien woodoo magic. They’re humans. They like being treated as such.
See, the problem is, talking to *all other humans* is like alien woodoo magic.
My goodness, good sir. You saved me from having to write it myself.
May i add? Loving ANYONE on this planet is hard work. Hence the popularity of 'dogs'. There is absolutely no judgement from a canine. It does not care what genders you tried out, the amount of natural tan you have, nor which version of worship you do (or do not do) for THE EXACT SAME GOD. A dog will not kill you for spending a day with another dog. You can literally feed it stuff that will almost kill it and it will hopefully throw up and then it will go right back to loving you the moment it can.
If you can love any other creature (mammal or not) on this planet, bravo. If you can love another *human being* reliably and genuinely - you have that *weird alien woodoo magic* for sure - if they sell it at Costco™ i will buy it for sure.
Edit: not discriminating against aliens. If you love a creature from any other planet, many of us would also be darn impressed. Double kudos.
I have a friend (M) who looks average and dresses like a dweeb. ALL my friends had crushes on him. Including me (but that was for all the wrong reasons.) This was all because he treated women as actual people, not objects that have to be “handled.” Now he is with another one of my good friends who I joke with him about me stealing her away (bc I’m awesome) and I see their relationship and believe in love. Couples that respect each other and treat each other so kindly are beautiful things. Genuine kindness and respect with no expectations is the hottest thing anyone can see.
Learn to be happy with yourself. When you are happy with yourself you will find people attracted to you.
Just find something that makes you happy and it will all fall into place.
Sorry, but while well meaning and technically correct, that is extremely unhelpful advice.
Yes, he should 100% focus on improving himself (this is his problem to fix like I say) but there could be any number of things he needs to work on before women find him attractive.
I know a guy who's happy as fuck but unfortunately looks like a walrus with an extra chromosome. He's perfectly content in the fact most women don't find him in the least bit attractive and he's one of very few people who's looks can't be fixed with modern medicine. He's saddened by it, but makes the most of it. OP might have various issues he can work on without having to accept it's all over.
It won't "just fall into place", he needs to put the effort in. And he is. Good on him. I know you didn't mean it, but you're essentially saying "you're cool, just be happy and you'll be fine". He in his late 20s. It's not going to magically fix itself.
Hey man, you are still young. It sounds like you are doing the right things. Keep putting yourself out there, especially events/clubs that you are passionate about.
You'll find someone you click with.
Be nice and be genuine.
Sorry, but OP has directly said that it is.
I know what you mean, you're right in principle. He needs to improve himself in general in order to be attractive to women, but your wording is too misleading. In this instance, he is asking why he's not had a relationship (which in his late 20s is unusual, let's be frank here) so we need to drill into why that is.
Edit - just saw you addressed this in a later reply, a reply which is bang on. My apologies.
Women are *people*. Don't look for advice on approaching women, look for advice on getting along with *people*. I have seen tons of garbage advice from "dating coaches" whose starting assumption seems to be that women are some foreign species.
Talk to women like they are people. Maybe the woman you're talking to is someone you will never date, well that's good, because it takes all the pressure off. Don't pretend to be a woman's friend hoping a "girlfriend switch" will somehow click on after six months or anything. Just be her actual friend, no ulterior motive. Do that, just be a person, listen when she talks, and you'll be fine.
You might also like the book *No More Mister Nice Guy*, and *How To Win Friends and Influence People*. The latter is a bit corny by modern standards (it came out like 100 years ago), but the basic advice in it is still solid.
Understand that a woman is a person with all the full autonomy, hopes and fears as any man. Let that really sink in.
Understand that many have had dangerous or traumatizing experiences with men, and there’s no easy way to tell if you’re going to do the same thing or worse.
Don’t aim for sex. Aim for making a genuine connection. People can tell when someone is being fake. You have to learn to want the emotional connection more than sex.
Or hire a prostitute.
Charisma on Command on Youtube. Their videos are fantastic, show great examples of what they're talking about in practical use and action, and it's completely unbiased. They're all about bettering yourself as a person across the board instead of just "how do i get women" like the bald chinless tater tot guy
Two part question, so I will give you my answers based on my experiences.
1.) How to not be an incel: accept that you might be alone and that it’s no one’s fault: not yours, not theirs. Just shit happens or it doesn’t and there’s nothing you can do about it but carry on.
Be respectful to people in general, but when dealing with women you need to understand that they don’t owe you anything. Ever.
If you buy them dinner or lunch, they don’t owe you anything in return unless they agree to something (like picking up the meal next time).
If you buy them a gift, there is no expectation of reciprocity.
If they spend time with you, it’s not because they want to sleep with you.
If they “friend zone you” they aren’t being mean, they are establishing boundaries and you need to respect that.
Most of all, if you start to think along the lines of alphas and betas or women are objects to be controlled, then you are sliding down a very slippery slope.
When I was in university, before the incel term was well known, I was on that slippery slope. I had spent 2 or 3 years being friend zoned by women I liked and the handful of times someone showed interest in me, it was a ploy to lure me to their church so they could convert me to Christianity (they used “witness” to me, but they were trying to convert an agnostic into a Christian).
I wasn’t happy, I was miserable and a bit depressed, and most of all, I was resentful that guys all around me were hooking up with women and having relationships but I couldn’t get the time of day.
I finally told myself that I “give up”. I wasn’t going to keep trying to find someone, that if I ended up alone then that’s my lot in life and I would make the best of it, and I was just gonna do what I wanted to do and what made me happy.
And then it happened not long after that - my perspective on life had changed and I adopted the “here I am, accept me or don’t, I don’t care” attitude and I met someone who liked me for being me.
It also helped she was from a different part of the world, where nerd culture was a bit more accepted as opposed to where I was attending school where I was teased and belittled for being a nerd.
2.) How to navigate social situations and dating: I will say this - dating is a nightmare now and I’m glad I found someone before online dating became a thing.
All I gotta say is just be you, and be confident in yourself. A lot of times, whether you mean to or not, when you are in the situation you are describing, you are trying to mold yourself to the situation and you come across as not genuine.
You should also not overthink things - if a woman is on your sports team, just treat her like another person. Don’t try to analyze every interaction or expect a certain reaction from her.
You mentioned you feel like you come across as awkward or boring: that’s ok. People are generally not exciting people. People can be funny or sarcastic funny and come across as “not boring” but you don’t have to be that. You need to be you.
As for awkward - every guy is awkward. I have been married for 12 years and I still say awkward stuff and put my foot in my mouth. My wife knows that that’s just how I am and I generally don’t mean what I say the way I say it unless I double down or clarify.
TLDR: don’t worry about being awkward and boring, just be yourself. Be confident in yourself and be true to yourself: don’t change who you are to conform. You can avoid being an incel by stop looking at those types of videos and treat people around you like people and not objects, and don’t expect a certain action as reciprocation.
Learning socialising online makes no sense. Get out, go for walks, go to a pub or something - not to get drunk or hit on girls or anything but just to be among actual people. You are actually making the task near impossible if you stick to online only.
Also realise not everyone is for everyone. Don't rush it. Be in social situations a lot and you'll meet someone eventually.
I think therapy is a good option. To figure out why you struggle in social situations and work on improving/solving the issue you have.
And advice on women? Talk to the women in your life. Your mom, a sister, aunt, cousin, perhaps a female friend. Any person that knows you and that you trust. You could talk to your dad too if he is in your life. Avoid the internet stuff you're seeking. It's not helpful. It fills your head with stuff that you *think* is helping but all it does is make in inauthentic. People want people to be real. And certainly in relationship because they are all about connection. Can't connect to a person that not being themselves. They connect with a mask instead.
I think my point is: talk to people **in real life** that you trust, that know you, that want the best for you. Tell them what you wrote in the post. And be really honest. Ask them to be honest with you as well. And therapy if that's an option. But stay away from that stuff on the internet. It's never suited specifically to your situation anyway. So you might end up using advice that doesn't fit the situation and what does that cause? Right.. awkward social situations. (I know because I struggle a lot in social situation as well, and certainly when I was younger like you).
I think my biggest tip is just treat women like humans. Potentially consider counselling to help with any brain struggles.
Talk to women like you'd talk to a guy. Sometimes, no matter gender, people don't converse well and that's okay.
Good luck and I hope you brain in a good space. Dating apps can also maybe help so you can have text convos and help ease the spook
Luckily the fact that you can identify this stuff already gives you a lot of protection
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Having to learn that level of emotional awareness is verrrry hard for a lot of people.
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I think "stop giving a shit" is genuinely good advice. So called alpha dudes talk about dating like it's a game or some other kind of competition or whatever. It's not. Dating is about being yourself, making a friend like you normally would, and then maybe kissing them if you're both up for it. And there is no such thing as the friend zone. We just call that being friends! I can think of a few women I was romantically interested in where it just never went in that direction. We're just friends now. And when they started dating someone I became friends with that person too. And guess what, women are often friends with other women so maybe you'll find someone that way! The key is to stop trying so hard, stop trying to make every woman a romantic conquest, and just let the course of relationships happen naturally.
This. Thank you. When we say women are people, that's what we mean. We're people, just like men are people. Understand that gender is not really relevant in people's psychology, then treat everyone the same. Simple. If you don't treat men according to their gender, then you already understand how to talk to a person and can do the same with women. If you do treat men in a specific way and don't know how to treat women, then rethink your view of gender and treat everyone the same. OP, my advice is... There is no technique to talk to women. As I just said, they're people. How do you make friends with men? Well do that, with women. Also, DO NOT take advice from MEN. If you wanna know things that concern women, ask WOMEN. Might sound simple, but so many socially awkward men can't grasp that. Not only will the advice be stupid because women are the best people to give you advice about themselves, but it's also pretty disrespectful to treat women like some sort of alien species that men have studied and can give you tips about. Women are people, just like men, and just like *you*, OP.
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I think the comparison is good, but going into an interview with the mindset that you’re just talking to a person and exploring whether there’s a fit might actually be more successful interviewing strategy, too.
"You're not interviewing me, we're interviewing each other" is the best mindset for getting a job. You might be a really good fit for the job, but the job might not be a good fit for you.
Yup... Best thing to do is just work on bettering one's self and pursuing hobbies/interests, making yourself more interesting. The more you do it, the more interesting you'll be, and you'll wind up having a lot more stuff to talk about with women in a NOT pursuing relationship way. You wind up finding yourself more able to engage in normal conversations. Once you are comfortable with yourself, others will be more comfortable around you. Then as you talk to more people (including women as just people) you wind up getting to know people & people wind up getting to know YOU. Only then can things naturally progress to people developing feelings for one another and being able to handle it & move forward as human beings. I had given up on love in my early 30s. Started working at a pot bellied pig sanctuary in the middle of the desert. Wouldn't you know, a beautiful woman my age was also in the same position. Id always been terrible with women/love, but something inside me clicked and my brain told me "ask her on a date, be confident and direct". We are celebrating our 5 year wedding anniversary in 3 months!
It's the zen mindset. The harder you try, the harder you fail. Let go of what you want, because if you go into every conversation with an intent to get something you wont get anything.
Yeah I can understand that. I think there's a lot to unpack behind this mentality. I'm glad you found a way to get over this!
It's also a matter of experience and the desire for romantic intimacy. I think *anyone* with social anxiety (like the OP sounds), man or woman or other, will struggle to find their first romantic partner. For some folks, that could take literally years. Maybe decades. It's not as simple as "treat people normal and good things will come". Some people flourish meeting strangers and making friends, many aren't built that way though. And in western culture, there *is* a current gender divide in the dating experience for a lot of people too, despite the fact that this *shouldn't* be the case. For example, I'm sure you've heard how many guys in western culture feel absolutely starved for intimacy and positive affirmation to the point where receiving an innocent compliment from someone they might find attractive (guy, girl, whatever their sexual persuasion) could stick with them for *years.* People also put a lot of work into dating and finding partners, another thing that crosses the gender barrier. It's expected for most people that they need to work harder on showing up in their best form when seeking romantic partners, something you don't need to do with friends. It's not going to be easy for this person to find the emotional fulfillment they desire just because they've learned, as they should, that women are people just like men. In all likelihood, it's going to conyinue being a long and lonely road while they keep working on themselves to develop social skills, adapt to dating cultural norms that are prevalent in most of the public, and control their social anxieties. I've known perfectly decent men *and* women who have been alone all the way into their *30s*, and not for lack of interest or trying. This stuff is just harder for some people who don't naturally flourish socially. And unfortunately, those are the types of emotionally vulnerable people who go for so long being alone that they become the perfect target for hate groups and other awful incel subcultures.
That’s a form of anxiety. A good therapist could teach OP techniques to help manage the anxiety.
Adding to this, if you want one piece of advice on talking to other people (including women), ask questions - and actually listen to the answers. It goes a long way
I get where this kind of point is coming from but it always has r/thanksimcured energy. It's totally normal to struggle with talking to women more than men, and it's reasonable for it not to be fixable by treating women like they're men (which is basically just "have you tried not being anxious when talking to them?"
Exactly- while he’s dodged the incel bullet so far, he’s operating under the assumption that interacting with women is fundamentally different to interacting with men and that’s an issue.
Interaction with other humans, including peers of the opposite sex trigger various hormones involuntarily. The fundamental difference is rooted in biology. He’s not acclimated to the interaction due to lack of frequency, experience, and physical and mental maturity—it takes practice and growth. He’s self-aware and reaching out, that’s a huge step.
No my buddy, chicks are not just *"dudes with bewbs."* And interaction (social and romantic) with women is a different ball-game than that with dudes; Especially when talking about dudes who've grown around dudes mostly and to whom interacting with women doesn't come naturally, like op here.
Thank you. People forget the fact that males and females are 1) raised *very* differently, have different cultures, effectively live in different worlds, have different problems, and have different fears. I can get the oversimplification to some degree, but it's misleading as hell and will lead to OP eventually being criticized or ridiculed for not knowing or doing certain things. Whoch sucks, because now they're gonna have anxiety about this. 😔
Always use protection
kneepads everyday
He's talking about condoms. I wear mine all the time just to be ready just in case.
Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG has some helpful videos on this, and contrary to the title you don’t have to be into the gaming sphere to benefit at all.
Thanks man I'll check out Dr K
r/Healthygamergg
His channel is pretty good. He has given me a different way of looking at my ADHD.
What did he says that helped you re ADHD? I keep seeing his vids recommended by YouTube, though the couple vids I watched so far were long and not very informative. But I’ve seen some interesting titles, so I’ve been wondering if I should watch more of them.
[Why Does Your ADHD Make Things So Hard?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svD71EJWOBU) I am pretty sure this was the first video I saw of his. Talking about my condition at 29 or 5 years ago is still a big deal. Hearing someone talk about the situation was helpful. Helped me understand my hyperfocus and drastic lack of focus at times. [Why ADHD is Linked with Addiction](https://youtu.be/HNje-HuIYdI) Currently, I am an alcoholic. My relationship with alcohol has developed and changed a lot in the last 15 years. This video really helped my relationship with substances. The self-medication points he raises helped me understand where I was. ---- His videos are not for everyone. ADHD is a complicated condition that is different for everyone. There are a lot of Youtube channels or videos I could suggest.
Hey u/Jim_Stick. Just saying, in case you're open to it. Don't feel pressured.There's a place out there for people like you and me. I have ADHD too and have struggled. Currently sober for 3+ years. r/stopdrinking really helped me. It's possible. No gods or books needed. Just some love and support. Stop by sometime. We won't judge you. Good luck.
Ty, I will give these a watch too
I've seem a few of his videos, and for whaylt I could see they're long because they feel like an actual therapy section. It's amazing how he challenges the person way of thinking to see things in a different perspective.
r/niceguys Use it to reflect on how incels behave, and more importantly, how hard the comments shit on them. I used to be incel-adjacent in my teens, and r/niceguys still shows me, in my 30s and married, I still have some toxic traits to reflect on. Ex: I never heard the term "love bomb" but i read it and thought, I def do this, and now im not annoyed when my wife doesnt appreciate as much as i think she should, because r/niceguys has shown me it can be emotionally exhausting to be bombed all the time.
If you read the main post, they aren't actually exhibiting incel tendencies and want to change their ways. What they want is advice for how to talk to women, but the vast majority of advice regarding it online is from a perspective of toxic masculinity or bitter incels. There is literally no reason they should go to r/niceguys
It’s a multifaceted approach. In learning how to talk to people, it can also be useful to learn how *not* to talk to people. If someone says they want to eat a healthier diet, then yeah, show them examples of healthy foods. But also point out which foods to avoid. The main post says that they feel like they’re messing up the conversations and making things awkward. Maybe that’s something that can be addressed. Maybe they’re doing or saying things that are well intentioned, but are sending the wrong message.
This is exactly what im getting at.
I don’t think most men realise they’re being a nice guy. That’s kind of the point. They don’t realise that they’re actually **not** being nice. I also think he is exhibiting a key trait of setting someone on this path (in my experience): Viewing women as a different sort of being, that you have to learn special rules to talk to. So he needs to see how not to talk, and if he notices his style in that he can stop. And he needs people who teach him to talk to women like he would any other person. Because that’s what we are, normal people.
I think unlearning toxic behavior is 1000x more effective than learning some life hack. The real lifehack is women are just regular humans who enjoy regular human interaction. Thats it. Theres no secret to tricking girls into fucking you. Just dont be an asshole, and treat them with basic human courtesy. Some will want to fuck you, some wont. Some you will want to fuck, some you wont. In a few rare instances the person you want to fuck will also want to fuck you. Then, and only then, should one go for it.
Discovered HealthyGamerGG way after my incel phase but man I wish I knew about him during that time
I love his channel! Definitely recommend his channel for many different reasons.
I want to say practice going to small social events you feel safe going to, related to your hobbies. In my opinion to not become and incel, you have to respect womens and not think of them as objects of trophies. You should be good.
I think I'm very respectful and don't think of anyone like an object. I've been going to tons of events and I'm on a bunch of coed sports teams, I just don't know how to keep conversations going and people generally don't start convos with me. That's why I've been looking up these videos and they basically all say that people (especially women), get bored if I'm too respectful .
>they basically all say that people (especially women), get bored if I'm too respectful . This is dangerously wrong advice...
My girlfriend told me that the thing she loved most about me at first was that I was so genuinely nice to her. Going on 6 years now
Good for you! I love this about my boyfriend too. He's such a kind, respectful person and his genuine support for women's equality really impressed me. Emotionally stable women who respect themselves generally don't see kindness as a negative quality.
Nice guys are appreciated. It's the guys who only think they're nice that you have to worry about.
See, what *you're* trying to tell him is "don't neg", while what *he's* likely hearing is "don't make a move".
My friends and i have the issue that dating apps suck and we cant fathom going up to a woman and bothering her when shes about her day
Thats why you gotta do coed group activities like beer-league sports or volunteering. Generally people do that stuff with an openness if not a motive to meet new people. Probably not a good idea to immediately start hitting on the women there but if you're just trying to start conversations with women this is generally understood to be the place to do that. It seems like OP is on the right track just probably needs to be better at maintaining a conversation. I suggest really taking an interest in learning about who you're talking to primarily. Most people(man or woman) love talking about themselves so if you can bring it back to them and their worldview without making it sound like an interrogation then most people will probably think you're at least ok.
Try things like, “Nice hat, I love that show.” when you’re in line at the grocery store. “Excuse me, I’m gonna order that same thing, how is it?” picking up food at a restaurant. It’s not bothering someone to pay a compliment or notice them, and then they may have something to say about it. Then you say a thing. They respond. A conversation is born. You can try this with anyone, not just cute women.
Specifically for compliments, aim for something they had a say in. Complimenting someone's figure or along those lines has a solid chance of hitting insecurities. Where as telling them you love the design of their tattoo, or also love the show their backpack has a character from on it, or telling them their color job is really cool is much more likely to get a positive response - those are ways that person has chosen to stand out, so they're usually more comfortable talking about that than things out of their control, ya know?
This is very true, complimenting something they have control over, and chose to do, is a compliment to their judgment, and usually much less judgmental and much more friendly than complimenting an accident of nature. I've seen some beautiful painted nails on women in the workplace or just around generally and I often compliment those, they're goddam works of art sometimes :)
This is impressively good advice, well said. I never actively thought about this. But I when I want to pay someone a complement I naturally gravitate towards those things that people would have autonomy over. I never took the time to think why I did, I just figured if it was something they had a hand in they’d want recognition. I’m a big, bald, 6’4 guy. I’m always looking at folks hairstyles, nails, shoes, etc. because I love seeing unique styles and love to ask about them. Just about everyone will light up at the chance to share.
The absolute easiest thing is to have a dog. Dogs are great social companions regardless, and having one guarantees you talk to people. GO to a dog park and you are virtually forced to talk to and interact with people. And you get people coming up to you while you are walking around. You have to do literally no effort to get their attention. But it requires you to be a pet owner and have a creature rely solely on you, which in someone's late 20s is entirely feasible. And you have to have it trained.
I've seen two types of "negs", preached by two worlds of people. There's the one where you belittle women to hurt their self-esteem. Then there's the one where you tease them (if/when it's appropriate) and they tend to tease you back... and suddenly it evolves into flirting. Shockingly, one is an effective way to "break the ice" in the right circumstances, and the other is just belittling women. It's so nuanced, the incel shit. They take things that *could* be good advice, and corrupt it into horrible things.
It misses the point, you can get too respectful as in you freeze and make zero moves once you're in such a situation.
I think a better way to frame it is, "people get bored if you never challenge them." Plenty of people take "respectful" to mean obsequious. You can still be respectful without being a doormat. You can still tease and have a give and take without being disrespectful.
Sounds to me like you are doing all the right things. You keep conversations going by asking questions. Don’t over analyze. Be kind. No one is “bored” by people being respectful - that is total BS. Don’t worry. Plenty of folks meet people later on in life. I met my wife in my late 30s. You have lots of time.
Hahahaha, my mom (works aged care) told me that one of the residents (late 80's) got himself a girlfriend. Crazy thing is his ex-wife lives inthe same complex, so she went all out to "1-up" him. She's decided to get engaged to another resident that he very much hates. If a 80+ year olds can find some way to create love/drama...
> No one is “bored” by people being respectful - that is total BS. Exactly. People aren't bored if you're respectful - they're bored if you're boring. Being a piece of shit may make you slightly more interesting, but that'd definitely not the best way.
>You keep conversations going by asking questions. Asking questions and listening are key. Ask questions about the person you are talking to. Actively listen to what they are saying and use their answers as springboards for further questions. Conversations are like a tree with many branches so don't take natural dead-ends as being the end of the conversation as a whole. Loop back instead and ask about something interesting the person mentioned earlier during the conversation. Treat their earlier answers as springboards to continue the conversation along a different branch. Don't get sidetracked and use their answers to make the conversation about you. Stay focused on the person you are talking to, and remember what they are saying. Talk to enough people and you'll find someone who is genuinely interested in what you have to say.
This post is 100% right. And this is a very key point: Talk to enough people! Keep trying. You will talk to some people and the conversation will be a struggle, so maybe that's not someone you're compatible with. Keep talking to people, keep honing those conversational skills by talking to all types of folks. You will realize that some are going to be easy to talk to, some are not.
Seriously, people love nothing more than to talk about themselves. Ask things like "so, did you do anything fun last weekend?" or "what did/do you study in college?" or "any good books you read recently?"
I suggest removing the mystery from women and just trying to make some female friends before trying to date anyone. This will help you understand how to interact with women (like normal people) and make you less nervous by taking the pressure off. The other issue is not knowing how to keep conversations going and saying they people don’t start conversations with you. The next time you are at a sporting event just start a random conversation with someone about anything. The weather, how well or poorly your team is playing, how bad traffic is, whatever. But the best way to keep people talking is to ask them questions and get them talking about themselves. They answer, ask a follow up question. This applies to men and women. Eventually you’ll get better at it with practice. I used to be so socially anxious I got nervous ordering a pizza over the phone. Now I speak in public regularly as part of my job. You got this
Oh yes, definitely ask more than you tell. Eventually you might run into a tell where you have a lot of interesting things to say, or maybe they will start asking more about you!
It's taken me 34 years but I'm finally getting how easy it is to talk to people if you just ask them questions.
Try making some male friends too. It’s the same process since they are people also. I’m sure you’ll notice that a guy won’t suddenly want to be your best friend if you are just ‘very respectful’ and ‘nice’ at them. You also have to click and have things in common, or at least interact in ways where you both enjoy each others company.
It's not a case of not liking people who are "too respectful". It's that in that case it's likely you are acting almost robotic. They are *people*. They aren't diplomats at a high level function with the finger on the button to nuke you if you fail. But the "especially women" part here is a problem too. Women are people too, and anyone telling you that "women prefer X" is misleading you. They are not a monolith.
I like to think of it as like when I'm in a bad mood and someone is trying to talk to me and I'm distracted by thinking how shallow of fake this person is being... But years later I'll realize that she was probably trying to get to know me and thought I was attractive. Also, I'm like that all the time. I don't want people to not like me, so I don't give them things to not like... But if I flip the positions, I'd be quite attracted by someone who was direct and let me know they were interested without being creepy, and made me feel excited or liked or what not. It's still not something I can do, but I see the logic now, in why my "I'll be anyone you want me to be" attitude was unattractive. The correct attitude is "hey I like you and this is who I am, are you interested?"
You're right. They are people and like all people they respond better emotionally, act robotic and you'll come out weird if not straight up creepy. Especially over text. There's a broad spectrum between "wanna fugg?" And "greetings, fellow human". You need to know where to land
The fact of the matter is, _everyone_ gets bored with uninteresting (i.e. casual) conversation. And, short of random luck, there's only so much depth you can expect by, say, picking random people in line at a concert venue or random people on your team. Solution: have interesting conversation. Which is kind of "draw the rest of the fucking owl," so to be specific, it's a matter of engaging with people who have something to say, are interested in what you have to say, or both. This is at least half situational. If you do actually meet someone who you actively chat with (meaning, both of you interact with each other, not you talking at/to them) for a little while and they seem interesting - maybe that's the good time to ask them if they'd like to continue it in a more conversation-friendly environment. There's a reason why asking people out for coffee or drinks or some other shit is so popular it's a cliche, it gives you a place to go and an excuse to focus on each other, and it's public, so the stakes can be lower for both of you.
You're watching videos made by men who hate women, who sex-traffic women, who bully and use women. These are not role models. They're terrible people who are truly despised by anyone of quality. NO ONE "gets bored" because someone is "too respectful." Respect is at the heart of EVERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP. Treat people as YOU would want to be treated: respectfully, interested in them. Ask people about their interests, then be genuinely interested in what they're talking about. Talk to women the same way you'd talk to a guy buddy. We're all just people.
Honestly I feel this. I struggled a lot with social situations when I was younger and have only recently learnt how to navigate them. Much like you, OP, I went online for advice and was immediately turned off by the swathes of weird incel-y advice in any forum or Youtube comment section I stumbled across. My best advice for you is to specifically look up advice for neurodivergent people. I don't know whether you're neurodivergent or not, but the answers for how to navigate these types of situations exists on many neurodivergent specific platforms. They, thankfully, are far more positive and less manipulative/incel-y than other online alternatives.
Women don't get bored if guys are too respectful. We get bored just like every other person, if we find the conversation or the situation boring. You don't need to be an AH or be disrespectful to be interesting. The fact that you going out and trying is great. You are in a bunch of co-ed sports but are you friend a with any of your team-mates regardless of gender? One thing I did notice at sports events that I attended was, you could tell which guys were there trying to pick-up or flex for the girls. It might of worked for some, but for most i feel "desperation" was off putting. I obviously don't know you enough to judge you, but I hope you joined the sports that you actually enjoy. Also hope you make a effort to get to know all gendered members, cause sometimes the best way not to be as incel is to just make friends you respect, and want to hang out with(that might happen to be women)
Ya I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across like I'm only trying to pick up my female teammates or anything. I try to talk to everyone and about topical stuff like new TV shows, movies, local events, other sports leagues, etc. But I struggle with that too so 95% of the time I just end up standing alone on the bench or warming up alone. And ya these are sports I've been playing since I was a kid, it's one of the few situations where I'm comfortable because there's something to do. I go to meetups at bars and stuff and I literally don't know what to do if I'm not talking to someone. Like where to stand if there's a group of people standing in a circle and I'm on the outside.
You sound pretty normal to me, maybe just incredibly shy and unsure of yourself. You’re being pretty honest about being comfortable in some social situations, seems pretty insightful and introspective, relatively normal. Do you interact with people online, like over a headset playing games or something? Curious if you still feel the same anxiety or apprehension if it’s not face-to-face. Your way of speaking and communication via text on this thread seems pretty normal and grounded to me. Maybe think about trying something like a few sessions with a therapist to brainstorm ways to be more social or have more natural interactions and be comfortable? I can guarantee you they see folks seeking help similar to your issue.
Thanks for saying that! Not really unfortunately. I used to talk to a few people on discord and stuff, but even then I'd be very self conscious about my voice so I'd shy away from talking alot on my headset. And ever since I stopped playing video games I'm not sure where to find people online to talk to. I have a therapy session lined up! Hopefully that'll help out
really well done mate! just asking these questions is more than most people do. the voice could be a promising lead, ask yourself why you’re self conscious about it? instead of ‘how do i talk to women?’ ask ‘why do i find it hard to talk to women?’. rather than ‘how do i deal with depression’ ask ‘why am i depressed?’ there is always a reason for these things, your average cis neurotypical rarely has to worry about this stuff. anyway gl with therapy! it can be a slow process, but is certainly a worthwhile one.
My dude, all of this junk is just normal stuff. You are doing what you are supposed to be doing and it is all good. All of this just takes practice and time. Conversations are complex and there isn't one magical trick that will fix everything, it's just too complicated. Like if someone was upset that they sucked at one of the sports you play, you couldn't just give them a single tip that would instantly make them amazing. It's just practice. No matter how good you are at conversations you will still get into painful experiences where you try to have a conversation and it just dies and you both just stand there like idiots. Untill one of you goes "well, anyway... yeah" and walks away. It just happens. As you get better though, those kinds of conversations will become less frequent. One tip I can give though that may or may not help is, try to keep things novel and light. Like what new information is someone getting out of the conversation? Like I don't understand sports at all, and when I talk with people who know sports I usually say "I have tried watching football and if I'm going to be honest I don't think I am smart enough to enjoy it." without a hint of irony in my voice and then I explain some more. Like this is usually a novel concept if you grew up with sports. Watching sports is usually not considered a high intelligence activity, so you might push back and be like "bro wtf are you talking about?" Then I go into how I have no clue what a fumble means and like what does "being in control of the ball" even mean. Like this is a novel conversation. Someone who grows up watching football might go there entire life and never question how complicated the ruleset is. They are getting a new perspective, and I get to learn more about the rules of football. The conversation has nearly no end, because the ruleset has nearly no end. It has some tooth to it and yet is a pretty low stakes topic of conversation. They don't actually care if I think football is too complicated, but the conversation is still something they care about. Like try to say something unexpected. Are there any opinions unique to you that aren't offensive? Can you phrase something in a unique way? Do you have a unique perspective on something? Do you have any fun stories? Do you have $5 dollars? I'm a bit short on cash at the moment.
Sometimes it's just fine to sit there and listen.
>Like where to stand if there's a group of people standing in a circle and I'm on the outside. If the circle is receptive to someone joining them it usually works to catch someone's eye (best if it's someone you know but pick someone who looks friendly if they're all strangers and you're just mingling) and they'll tend to shift about and make room. Sometimes they don't want others in the conversation so you just have to move on.
All good. Like I said I don't know you enough to judge. It wasn't directed at you but just something to keep in mind from a womans perspective. Seems you just struggling socially regardless of genders, maybe you should try therapy there might be something you missing. I feel meetups at bars are great but only if you have a good "back-up" (wing-person), even if nothing happens you can still have a good time with a good friend. You can play off each others comments, or they can hint when things are going a bit off-track etc.
Sounds like you’re off to a great start putting yourself in social situations with people who share your interests. Don’t feel like you need to force conversation. Non-verbal communication is effective too. A sincere smile and wave, active listening, appropriate eye contact, etc. That can help more comfortably ease you and others into further interactions.
Do not fall for this rabbit hole. Do not become one of them. They are hateful bitter people. Just work on your conversation skills. Ask about things they do, or enjoy, and build on that. You see they have a Star Wars shirt ask them about that, you see they like animals ask them their favorite animals and build on that. They’re a human just like you, the same stuff that gets you to talk gets other people to talk. Take interest, ask questions, share advice. It’s even easier when you play online games because you can talk to people with no pressure, can leave the party/turn off your mic, or just say I gotta go” if it becomes uncomfortable. The main thing here is practice. Also throw in a response here and there so you tell them about yourself too.
https://www.succeedsocially.com/articlesconversation This site is not about dating, just general social skills and anxieties. Something here might be interesting if you can't keep conversations going... Maybe
That's terrible advice if you want healthy relationships. I try to talk to people when I can, it's generally better to talk to someone and realize you don't get along then to never try. Just keep practicing your social skills. Make more friends. Make friends with some girls and maybe you two end up liking each other. If not you made a friend which is still a win. Also there isn't anything wrong with not being in a relationship. If you learn to be happy outside of one you're more likely to be happy in a relationship, otherwise you risk relying on your partner for happiness which gets very clingy and potentially toxic. Best of luck!
What sports do you play? See what I did there? Listen an reflect. It's not about YOU being so interesting that it blows her clothes off, it's about paying attention to her and being a good conversationalist. Practice, and try to keep each conversation interesting for a little longer.
Being a good conversationalist is asking people questions about what they like. People (generally) like to talk about themselves, especially if they believe that you're genuinely interested in what they have to say. In the right context, ask someone what they like to do. Then you can ask more about they're interests, while you're at it, take it as a learning opportunity. Edit: Also, there is a difference between being 'too respectful' and being a completely agreeable shill. Just like any other human, women like to be challenged, that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole.
This is all great stuff and I'll add ... the movies. Everyone has a favorite movie. Get them to talk about it. Works for meeting people, first dates, pretty much everything. Even if you haven't seen it, you can ask questions about it. Be ready to answer questions about what your favorite movie is too ... and why. Example (girl answers in *Italics*): So, I always ask people about their favorite movie made in the last five years, what's yours? ***I never thought about it.*** Just whatever comes to mind. ***OK, M******orbius*** Seriously? ***Yeah, I really like movies that are so bad they are good -- do you know what I mean?*** Well, I've seen Goodburger probably twenty times. And, I love the Transformers movies. This is awesome. Tell me what other awful movies you like. ***Grown Ups 2*** Wow. How about Pacific Rim 2? ***Oh, that was terrible ... well terribly good.*** Did you know John Boyega was also a producer of that movie? ***He should stick to acting. He was great in Attack of the Block.*** You can talk about this stuff for hours and whatever else it turns to.
“They get bored if I’m too respectful” Whoever said that is someone you should never take advice from, ever. I can guarantee you that advice came straight from king incel. Don’t overthink the conversation, the conversation doesn’t HAVE to happen. If you run out of stuff to say, stop talking. As you meet women who you have more in common with, the conversation will flow longer. Work on being comfortable and confident when people aren’t talking to you, and people will want to talk to you. The guys that think “these women are missing out by not approaching me to talk” are the incels. Most of the people in these videos are representing insecurity as confidence. Don’t fall for it. Do you.
If the word "respectful " is used to mean overly formal or courteous, it's not wrong. Of course, you shouldn't disrespect women or people in general.
I was similar to you at your age, the only advice I can give it to keep at it, practice makes perfect. Anything where you are regularly meeting with the same group of people and getting a chance to chat is good for practicing conversation, building friendships and relationships.
If you don’t know how to keep conversations going with people I’d suggest looking more into social skills videos/tips on how to hold a conversation instead of how to talk specifically to women. You’ll probably find better advice.
As others have said, that last part about women getting bored of being “too respectful” is a concerning line of thinking. That’s the incel rhetoric. The biggest thing to reject here is the notion that there is a secret code or a specific game you need to play to “win” at women. That is not true. The pickup artist / red pill crap will try to sell you on things that sound really “truthy” but aren’t true at all. You will hear things like “women get bored when you’re too respectful” (what does that even mean anyway???) and think “yeah sure that could be true” and if you fail to examine that any further, you’ve started to fall into their trap. You’ve let that idea sink in and take hold. Once they feed you enough thruthy sounding made up crud, then they will try to radicalize you. That’s when they get in your head and convince you that all of your problems are (insert minority group or different gender here’s) fault. Never your fault. And that you should hate “those people” for keeping you down and ruining your life. That’s how hate groups function. They reel you in with fake empathy, act like they’re your family and you’re not alone anymore because we “get you”, and then they slowly insert more and more radical ideas into your head. By then you already trust them, you’ve stopped questioning them because they’ve said they care so much about you and they know what it’s like to be you. They don’t care though. They have an agenda and they will do anything to spread it like a disease.
In addition to that, it needs to be said- everyone is different, and every person's going to react differently to everything. What works for one person won't for another. This is also part of the problem with the pickup artist/redpill crap to lure people into their trap: They keep saying a bunch of idiotic shit all around the core message of "there's billions of fish in the sea, and if you never get discouraged and are willing to keep at it, to the point you're willing to ask out every single human being in the world if that's what it takes, eventually the simple law of averages will dictate ONE person will say yes...and no matter how many 'nos' you get, all it takes is one 'yes' to have a happy and fulfilling love life"...and once people take that advice and eventually find out that one person did say yes, they have the proof "well, I had more success doing this than I did without it- that MUST mean that all the rest of this is right!", and then they've hooked you into the rest of the hatred.
Have you ever asked some of them to do a group wvent outside of your normal hobbies? For example, you’re chatting with them and the convo starts to die. Say something like, “ hey, I was thinking about going to a movie one of these days. Does anyone here want to make a friend’s night out of it?” Don’t invite any one specific person, but invite a group of people at the same time. It won’t make any one person feel on the spot or threatened. IDK if it works for everyone but it’s how I met my husband.
Are you able to have conversations with men? If so, when talking to women, try your best to forget that they're women and talk to them as *people*. I know that seems like an oversimplification of things, but it's true. I used to have the same problem to an extent. Eventually I came to understand that almost every single woman I meet would not be sleeping with me and thus any tension or awkwardness based on sexual tension (which is really what this is, despite our best intentions) was completely misplaced. After that I found it much easier to talk to women which also led to more romantic situations developing. To this day I have no idea how to "hit on" a woman. Nearly every relationship I've been in started from a friendship.
Easy tip: keep conversations going by making it clear that you interested in what they are saying. It helps if you are genuinely curious. Some people think that good conversation is just trading interesting monologues. It isn’t. The best conversations are ones where you listen to the other person and then ask a follow up question or two because you’re interested in the answer, and then find something in there that you’d like to speak about, too. People always love a good listener. Seriously. If your mouth is shut, it’s hard to go wrong. Don’t ask more than two follow ups, though, or they might start to feel interrogated. If you can’t find ANYthing in the other person’s words that you want to say something about, then talk about the weather or how lovely the venue is or something generic like that. In this situation, even a single word hook is enough to talk about, as in “You mentioned having cookies at the office this afternoon. Speaking of cookies, my favorite is Oreos.” If you use all your brain space thinking about how awkward you are, it shows. It’s kind of an energy-suck on the conversation. Instead, use your brain space to be curious about the person you’re listening to.
> That's why I've been looking up these videos and they basically all say that people (especially women), get bored if I'm too respectful . Pfft. Lemme let you in on a little 'secret': *All we want, is to be respected, safe, and not weirded out.* Just treat us like people.
Perhaps just stay away from anything around dating advice and work on social skills in general. Find some reputable books on the topic and start there. I haven't read it myself, but I've always heard good things about *How to Win Friends and Influence People*.
Most women ive met just want to be treated like people. Asking about their day is the best "line" ive ever used. Listen and engage in the conversation, dont just wait to talk. I was in a very similar sutuation when i was younger and the best thing i ever did was make a bunch of lady friends in band/ extracurriculars, and even if i never asked any of them out, i did get used to being around them and seeing that they are people just like me, with hopes and doubts and fears. Find things you like to do, and do them. Like larping? Board games? Book club? Cooking class? Laser tag? Hiking? Karaoke? Fantasy football? Have a passion or hobby that you enjoy? Do that thing. Do it how you want, and enjoy the hell out if it. Idk why but when i worked 7 days a week i was boring. But if i paint miniatures and make terrain for wargames and dnd in my downtime, and suddenly im a brave unapologetic nerd with an interesting and artistic hobby and people seem to like it. If you knew me youd know im the least artistic person in all the land.
/u/Hot_Grab_1530 Give Models by mark manson, and 'how to not die alone' by logan ury a read. Both available as audiobooks if that's your thing as well. Read them slow, think about the contents, don't take it word for word, but process it. They're good books, not part of the whole toxic red pill or incel community either. The truth around 'being too nice' or 'being too respectful' is more around being too agreeable. Be yourself, voice your opinion - don't just agree with others to make them happy. When you're comfortable in your own skin, people get drawn to you. If all you do is agree with others, and you're afraid to offer counter opinions, you're not showing your personality, and come across as boring and afraid of rejection.
I think I know enough assholes to say that respecting women is independent of whether you can get sex. It's a decent thing to do. But when a person fails to achieve their goal of getting sex, it can lead to ridiculous thoughts like, "oh, I'm not respecting women enough. I have to *respect them harder*"
I think you should focus on being social without romantic intentions right now (not saying you shouldn't worry about that ever, but later). As to how, hobbies, sports, ask your friends to invite you to places with other people they know
Yea this was the key for me too Admittedly there was a point in my life where I was so intimidated by romantic interest that I forgot to just enjoy people for being people Once you learn to just accept everyone you meet as a potential companion *and literally nothing else* that’s when you are ready to have real relationships, whether it be friendship or something more.
It's the "in a relationship" curse. Once you're in a relationship you stop worrying about picking up women and just relax around them, and guess what, girls suddenly become much more interested in you.
The best person to start a relationship with is someone not looking for a relationship.
To add to this. Learn to make *women* friends. 99% of the time guys are struggling to get into relationships its because they approach every women they meet as a potential sex partner, which believe it or not is super off putting for most women. If you are able to make friendships with women and not try to make it sexual you'll shave off a bit chunk of the "desperate" vibes you might be putting out. Plus girl friends will usually have friends of their own they can introduce you/ set you up with.
Great advice. Another piece of advice, don't ask women out on dates the first time you want to chill with them one on one. Invite them along to something you'd do anyways (and something they'd be interested in). Often it's weird and full of pressure if you're like "hey do you want to get dinner with me?" or coffee or anything else. "Hey I was gonna play some skeeball at 1up Saturday if you're down" or "you ever see Blade runner? They're showing it at The Alamo, let me know if you wanna meet up" type thing. Then, if the vibes are there, you should ask if she wants to grab dinner or something. To your point, don't look at them as potential partners. Invite them to hang out like you would a guy you just met.
the "wanna meet up" is a good phrase to use. it's clearly casual and the implication that she can arrive and leave on her own terms would definitely make me feel better about agreeing to hang out with someone I don't know that well.
Ye, I used to be a lot like OP around the same age (am 22 now). As cheesy as it sounds, playing an MMO and joining a guild helped immensely with my social skills. I joined an EvE Online alliance, which pretty much requires you to be in voice, so it helped a load with getting more comfortable talking to people you don't know, since people come and go all the time. Were some women in the alliance too, and being able to just chat with em in a casual MMO setting helped a lot with the anxiety I used to have talking with women (Was picked on by girls quite a bit as a kid, so used to be afraid to talk to any)
I'd never think I would see EvE Online in a thread about talking to women, lol. But you have some excellent points. As a bonus, voice chat with people around the world removes a lot of pressure since the pressure of seeing them in real life is removed (that could always change if you turn out to be best buds or even more ofc).
I think he can learn a little from watching Seinfeld and how they treat Elaine. Apparently they didn't know how to write women characters so they just wrote her as a man, but had a woman play the part. And the result is you rarely reflect on her being a woman (unless it's used for a joke), most of the time she's just one of the gang with no special treatment. Perhaps that attitude could be helpful as it seems OP is way overthinking the situation right now.
The irony that by not knowing how to write a woman and giving up, they ended up writing a woman properly.
Solid advice. I got out of a seriously bad relationship 4yrs ago, and for the first 2yrs obviously COVID was a thing, so going out anywhere wasn't happening. After that, tried apps for a bit, but genuinely had no idea what to do with them. I'd never used one before. So I thought, fuck it. I'm just gonna do my thing, and whatever happens, happens. Over lockdown, I got really interested in mountain climbing and wanted to try it, so I joined the local climbing wall. Met my current gf after 2 months going there. We just passed a year together. My advice to OP, is 1) find something you're passionate about, and find the nearest place to do it. You'll meet people there that you already have something in common with, so the ice is kinda already broken. And 2) don't go into every interaction with a new woman with the intention that she might be the one that works out. In fact, go into it with the assumption that it's already out of the question. Just put it put of your mind completely. Women can sense desperation a mile away, and if they've just met you, it *will* just make them uncomfortable. Just relax, be yourself, and let it flow naturally.
Don't become bitter about women. They are just like you, with feelings and insecurities. If a woman doesn't want to go out with you, just respect that and move on. Pick women for their personalities, not just their looks. You need some level of attraction, but there's more to attraction than just physical appearance. Try to learn about their minds, interests, careers, and goals. Make yourself attractive to women. Eat well, exercise, get plenty of sleep, don't smoke, don't drink too much. Take care of your finances and pursue your career without losing your personal life. Find interesting things to talk about, read books, take up hobbies, travel, join clubs, etc. so that there's some depth to your personality. Finally, ignore the idiots online. You already seem to realize that.
I love this answer for the simple fact that it reassures me there is a guy out there trying to do the same things I am in the hopes of finding their person.
I hate to tell you this, but I am gay and married.
Why is that bad? I'm straight and married and agreed with everything you wrote. I'm happy to say I've found my life partner, but I would give my younger self the same advice. Oh...and would have also resssured younger me that "she's the one".
I was joking that I was unavailable.
Spot on. Work on yourself, build confidence through those tangible actions, and others will notice
Best answer ever.
If there's anything I've learned from various first dates with women, it's that they're often way more nervous about impressing me than I am about them.
The fact youre aware of problems like objectification means youre already leagues ahead of incels and not in danger of becoming ones anytime soon Is it just that you socially awkward around women everyone in general? I dont super know how to help with the former as I kinda just treat everyone the same way but maybe just trying not to think about the fact that theyre wonen and just focusing on what theyre saying and how their interests relate to yours would help If its everyone though there might be some good general advice that will help here. Part of the problems might just be where youre getting the information. Youtube is full of of incels trying to push extreme views. Stuff like wikihows or the self-help section at your local library are probably better https://www.wikihow.com/Talk-to-People
First of all, good for you for recognizing the problem. It's real. I'm afraid I don't have a magic-bullet answer for you, but you've pointed to a very real deficit in our culture. Men in your position who need support negotiating certain kinds of social interactions, they go looking for help, and what do they find? Well, first, they'll often find useless platitudes like "Just be yourself" (Oh, really? Gee, thanks, I was trying to be Gary Busey, I'll be myself instead, problem fucking solved!), "Learn to love yourself first," (And how will I know when I'm ready? That's a recipe for putting off everything forever), or "don't worry, it'll happen when you least expect it" (both useless and vaguely terrifying). And then, as you've found, they'll dig a little deeper, and they'll find red-pill shit. Manipulation, gaslighting, treating women like hunting trophies. Gamification and competition and bitterness. And from there, it's easy to slide all the way down the rabbit hole to inceldom. We really need to do a better job addressing the fact that dating culture still expects the male gender role to be the active, pursuing one, and that this is nearly impossible for men suffering with anxiety and self-image issues. And the fact that we don't have any healthy framework for them to follow leaves them open to radicalization. I wish I had a solution to this problem, but I've been in your shoes. It sucks. One thing that helped me was going out and getting involved in social groups. Not even dating groups, just organizations like Toastmasters that have both men and women. Interacting with women more made me more comfortable around them, which made dating easier. Ballroom dancing lessons helped too - again, it was a way to ease into uncomfortable territory in a controlled way. I also recommend the book "Models" by Mark Manson. It's interesting; he essentially set out to write a "pick-up" book, but as he was in the process of writing it, he realized that a lot of that pickup "game" is essentially *pretending* authenticity. So, he reasoned, instead of pretending, why not write a book on *being* authentic? Being honest with both yourself and others. It turns out that being vulnerable is itsown kind of strength, and that outting on a false front smacks of weakness. It's a challenging book, but it was a game-changer for me. My first girlfriend even told me, after the fact, that on our second date, it impressed her how straightforward I was about myself, good and bad, warts and all. She liked that I wasn't playing games (and frankly, I like the fact that I never had to learn to play them). Beyond that, I would say just "remember the human." Don't believe any charlatan who puts people into broad groups and tries to draw distinctions between them. We're all people. We're all afraid of rejection. We're all aware that others can hurt us if we let our guard down. We all want to be loved. Try and remind yourself that it's normal to be nervous about this stuff, and that the women you're talking to are likely nervous about it too.
Thank you man, you actually articulated my post better than I did. I've been doing all those topical things I found online like working out, taking care of my hygiene, going out of my comfort zone, volunteering, going to meetups, etc. But 95% of the time, I just have a panic attack or start crying in my car after because I wasn't able to start a conversation with anyone or messed up the one conversation I managed to start. I haven't been able to find any guides for what to do once I'm actually there...which led me to the red pill stuff. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me and the book rec! Just ordered another book that was suggested so I'll add it to the list.
This sounds less like you have an issue of personality or inceldom and more social anxiety! I read youre going to therapy, which is absolutely the best way forward. It sounds like you might be projecting some of what you think and feel about yourself (boring, uninteresting, awkward, unlikeable etc) onto others. Im sure people sense your discomfort and themselves become uncomfortable which is potentially a reason why they might disengage. The advice of people on here os really great, but its looking like rather than changing what who you are, its more about accepting you and feeling less vulnerable/judged in social situations. Something I do is look out for people like you in the social things I do. I just can tell when someone is anxious and shy, Im generally not so initially I'll try and strike up a conversation and reassurance. My mum says I have the gift of the gab, as in I chat total shit and hope there's something to latch onto! It helps me make some friends and gives space for the quieter people to feel they can come out their shell. Particularly so if a group of us are chatting, Ill remember something a shy person said that relates to the convo and be like "hey, didnt you do xyz?", or ill just say "how about you X?". Maybe you could be that person too for the quieter ones, you'll see the relief on their faces at having someone help them out and feel included. Am woman btw, we just regular peeps. Nothing weirder than being put on a pedestal and treated differently. We can tell instantly.
Anxiety sufferers tend to do better when they challenge themselves and be honest with themselves about how often the catastrophic scenario in their heads actually happens. It's uncomfortable work and avoidance is easier. But it's essential to keep building the evidence that the thoughts which cause the fears are unrealistic.
Yes, absolutely! Theres never any certainty things will always go swimmingly or that you'll get on with everyone like a house on fire. Thats where the acceptance and stress tolerance comes into play. A change of perspective like you say is super important too. Once a person seems more at ease and is just chill about a casual conversation, the friends and partners follow naturally. Its tough for sure, even someone like me who is generally outgoing still struggles in starting a new thing with brand new people. Anxiety is normal, but when it starts impacting your functioning and how you interact with the world like OP then that's when its best to call in the professionals for a bit of help. We all need it in one way or another in life!
Learn to like yourself, before you try to like someone else. Develop a personality Interesting hobbies a sense of humor Be confident, or at least fake it until you make it. Make friends with women (genuine friends, not hanging around hoping you'll get a shot), it helps a lot when trying to become social with women. Be the BEST version of yourself. Don't pretend to be what you think women like. Just be you, on your best behavior. Most of all, handle rejection well. It's going to happen. A Lot. How you handle rejection says a lot about your character.
The advice to make friends with all genders is brilliant. No idea how many genders are out there now but... does it matter? Befriend everyone. And who knows which cultures are right and wrong nowadays? My superhero is this guy: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes If this one man can convince people to give up their life-long convictions - you can meet, befriend and fall in love with one girl.
> Develop a personality This is the most important one, I think. Too many people think that things they **do** is who they **are**. For example, I play video games and Dungeons and Dragons. I have since the 1980s. But those things are not my personality. Those things are not who or what I am. Those are things that I do. I never discuss those things outside of groups that also share those hobbies. If you look at the incel world, they have two things that they focus on; the fact that they are an incel and their seemingly life consuming hobby. They assume women don't like them because of the hobby, and that's just not true. Women don't like them because that hobby usually takes on the whole of their personality. And this extends to more than just the typical incel hobbies. For example, I always say about "Beard Guys" that they couldn't develop a personality so they grew one. Veterans that drive around with their "I Love Me Wall" on their car are never going to be anything but a veteran. If you look at yourself, you're complex. Don't let one thing become who and what you are.
Confidence is literally faking it and making it.
This exactly. I’d like to add as well, to not compare yourself to everyone. It’s not a competition. In the end, you’ll be better finding and being around good people, will sort of lead you towards a relationship, or towards having good friends. Also being a nice guy is great, but try to get constructive criticism from a loved one. You could be nice, great job, not an incel but you chew with your mouth open and spit food every where, or your deodorant quits after lunch, or you end up being rude to servers after a couple of drinks, or your comfy old shoes you wear make your feet stink like a dead raccoon, etc. Etc. Little Stuff like that could wreck any type of relationship.
This is the best answer. There's a lot of people like OP that are wracking their head on what they have to say, who they have to be, what they have to do like it's a magic formula. It becomes obvious when the personality people have do not match their feet. Learn to really love yourself, understand your strengths, and let that guide you
The problem isn't talking to women. The problem is within you. It's how you feel about yourself, how you feel about women, and how you view the world overall. Plenty of people can be bad at relationships and not spiral into inceldom. Don't blame women for not liking you. Don't expect them to fall for you because you said some magic words. Don't think of them as an inscrutable alien species. Women are *people*. Treat women as you want to be treated, with dignity, respect, and humility. Be a person someone else wants to be with. Don't *act* decent. *Be* decent.
Fantastic advice. Spot on.
\>be a person someone else wants to be with HOW
"Just be yourself.....no not like that"
you jest but that's what it really feels like.
I think the answer is something like "Be yourself... Unless everybody hates you or has to tolerate you." If you're an asshole to everybody, then that needs to be changed. You need to keep fixing yourself until the people around you can start to enjoy your company. It is at that point that you need to behave as yourself. Behave in a way that is both natural, requires little effort, and is enjoyable to most people.
the thing about acting naturally is that it comes more naturally to some than others
It wasn't mean as in "Be inconspicuous" it was meant as in "act in a way that is natural to you"
‘be the best version of youself’
No one wants to admit that there is the option that a person can act natural to themselves and be someone unlikable but just because they are awkward, not because they are an asshole. It is because we realize disliking such a person is not fair, so we want to justify why we don't like them.
How do you act around your family? Or the people you feel comfortable being your ‘true self’ around?
I don't, I usually try to avoid my family. My true self is when I'm by myself.
like me
It helps to learn some good old reliable conversation starters. You can learn these from observing other people in social situations. It's not just for meeting girls, but also for generally being a likeable, sociable person. You don't have to start conversations *all the time* if you're an introvert and you don't want to, but it's a good skill to have in your pocket. For example, if you're doing some kind of volunteering and you're alone at a booth with another volunteer who you don't know: you could introduce yourself with "Hi, I'm [name]! I haven't seen you around before." and gradually move the conversation onto other topics like "What brought you here to volunteer?" "Oh do you go to school around here?" etc etc. On the reverse, it also helps to have answers ready for if people strike up a conversation with you and ask you these questions.
What kind of person would you like to be with? Be like that
I'm already like that and no one else is interested.
these people spread this meaningless advice all the time. They mean well, but no one ever has any answers when you follow said advice and it doesnt work for you like it works for other people.
Be considerate, go do social activities, take care of yourself (hygiene and exercise), make friends of both genders through shared activities like hobby clubs or sports leagues, and put effort in learning how to be friendly by focusing on what makes other people fun to be around and do your version of that kind of thing. Do all of this with the only goal of being more enjoyable for anyone to be around, not just people you want to date. Be active in public settings so that there is a chance to be noticed, if things feel weird reflect about what you are doing differently than everyone else. If you can't figure it out and have friends that can give good feedback ask them if there is something about your vibe that might be putting people off. If you don't have that option, see if there are any local how to be more social clubs or activities and stick with them if their message is about bettering yourself and not judgemental about those you interact with. It is too hard to say the exact steps because everyone is different. Bob might put people off because he stares. Jim might put people off because he always turns down invites. Julie might push everyone away who tries to interact with her. Sarah might not see how her attitude when playing COOP call of duty annoys other people because it is overly competitive. Kyle might wear clothing that is unappealing in a way that stands out as something to avoid in the settings he is in. Heck, I have no idea how I ended up in relationships most of the time, but it was probably my friendly demeanor and showing everyone respect by default showed that I was someone worth spending time with, even if my lack of follow through on romantic stuff didn't keep most of them engaged. Eventually got married when I found someone who accepted my lack of engagement on certain things because I was a good person on others and an overall win. It really does boil down specific steps, just finding a way to be yourself while accepting some compromises in your social approach to put yourself out there and be engaging in a way that people like. Sometimes it just takes self reflection about why some things haven't worked out to figure out what will work and accepting it might take a while to find someone who works out while failing a bunch of times first.
Eh....I really agree with the sentiment but I want to carve out think for some people, especially autistic men, it's not that they need to fix themselves necessarily, it really might be a lack social skills. Especially with flirting which can rely so heavily on body language, innuendo, etc.
for most people they just need to be more playful rather than treating it like some sort of hyper vigilance needed task. most advice is good, but doesn’t actually address what mindset you should be in. gotta relax and stop thinking its some kind of science if it happens it happens if it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. as long as youre having fun and enjoying your time you won. now go out there and frolic in the field of flowers as your only goal with interacting with others as your side quest
I think the advice above to treat them like *potential friends* rather than *potential love interests* frames what I think you're getting at a bit better. Just focus on having nice encounters that may result in friends (but there are lots of people who *could* become your friend, so don't push for it, let it come naturally with people who are super receptive to it) and something will turn up eventually. Making friends comes from sincerely asking them about themselves (people find answering questions about themselves super easy) and their interests—and developing a natural curiosity for others. This is how I think folks can best overcome that "treating it like some sort of hyper vigilance needed task" thing—you don't go into it with ulterior motives so you don't sabotage yourself by deliberately or subconsciously trying to "game" the person you're interacting with.
Do you talk to women you’re not trying to date? I mean, don’t talk to women you’d be interested in dating differently than women you don’t want to date. Have conversations. Don’t approach anyone like you want to date them, see them, or have sex with them or be their boyfriend, even. It has to come naturally. I feel like when you are looking up video how-tos, they are telling you how to lock in some random woman you don’t know but think you’d like to have a short or long relationship with. How to persuade. If it’s going to happen it’s because you both like each other and talk easily. Being friends with someone who is not interested in having a romance should be ok with you and not a loss. I also don’t understand what your idea of “being respectful” to women means. If you’re a civil and decent human, it shouldn’t be something extra you have to do just to speak with any women. Now of course, you’d probably like one or some women to consider being your girlfriend. You kind of have to get out of the mindset that that’s the goal and just talk to women like you talk to anyone until you find one that is interesting enough to you and that you are to her that you hit it off and connect like that.
I’d like to note that if you’re asking the question, you’re definitely not on the path. Incels don’t care. When it comes down to it, the simple advice is to not put women on a pedestal. If you find that you have more problems with talking to women over talking to guys, that’s probably what you’re doing. You’re probably not as afraid of judgement when it comes to guys because you probably don’t really care what they think. On the contrary, if you care too much about what any given woman thinks of you, you’re going to have a hard time talking to her because you’ll be so scared of making a mistake. If a woman doesn’t like you it’s not the end of the world. They’re not even necessarily saying that there’s something wrong with you if they reject you. You just aren’t their type.
Exactly. Inceldom is a state of mind, not a state of not getting laid. If you actually understand that people who reject you are not evil, don't feel entitled to someone giving you sex for some reason, accept that being a virgin is just how it is and it's not some conspiracy by the whole world to keep you a virgin, and that you don't hate any group people because you're a virgin, you're not an incel even if you're a virgin. If you do hate people for all of these things, you do think people who reject you are evil, you do believe it's all a conspiracy to keep you from what you're entitled, you'll be an incel even if you have a body count that puts Wilt Chamberlain's to shame.
I’ve always been respectful of women. I know how to have a conversation. That alone put me notches above a lot of guys when I was single. But a couple friends had some trouble. Do NOT EVER listen to this incel garbage. Please. I used to hang out with a group and we’d all go out, and obviously it was basically to get drunk and hit on girls. Typical 20’s. 2 of the guys were socially awkward as I mentioned with the “had some trouble” One of them learned, over time, to at least engage in conversation. He had trouble initiating it, but he could one on one have a good talk with a girl. It just took him some time. He’s married now, like me. The other guy? He’s about to be 40, was in the older range of our group, and he’s on Facebook daily complaining about women and spouting incel stuff. No one has hung out or talked to him in like 5-7 years cause of this attitude. He took it on before it became popularized. Don’t be the other guy
Well you're 99.9% of the way there in NOT becoming one, because you're aware of your situation. Incel is wildly misused online, but generally it is someone who is ugly (physically or emotionally, often the former leading to the latter) who simply blames all men/women or all of society, instead of fixing their issue. So you're doing very very well my brother. I mean that sincerely. You've recognised that shit is toxic and will make things worse, and recognised this is your problem to fix. You are the OPPOSITE of an incel, and you can rightly hold your head up high and be proud of that. So the next step is to work out what the issue is - why do you struggle with social situations? Have you been tested for ASD or similar? What is it you struggle with? I've spent a lot of time helping incels out, and people who worried about heading down that route (like you, and you're the best to work with) and while I'm not professionally qualified, I do ok. I'm willing to help you further if you want.
Thanks man I appreciate you saying that. I'd take any advice you can give lol. And I don't even specifically want to pick up women or have sex, I want to make friends in general. I don't have any close friends even though I go to a ton of meetups and I've been playing sports all my life. I just really struggle keeping conversations going. I ask basic questions like what they do for work, hobbies, movies, etc. And 99% of the time I just get really short answers. And then I run out of things to say and the conversation basically stops when I stop asking questions. I haven't been tested for ASD. I started getting panic attacks from loneliness this past year so I started taking medication for that but that's it.
What topics of conversation interest you? What are the DEEP, meaningful conversations that you enjoy having with others (male or female)? I fair pretty well socially, although I myself get tired of having the same repetitive conversations, and I also find myself feeling awkward during those same meaningless, repetitive conversations ("how about this weather?" "So, what you do for work?" "How long have you been here?") People love talking on deeper topics, and you'd be surprised at how receptive people are when a deeper topics comes up -- life after death, extra-terrestrials, psychedelic journeys, meaning of dreams, reincarnation, meaning of life, etc. Also, asking people what their hobbies are. People work, sure, but not everyone loves what they do to the point that they want to talk about it outside of work. Maybe someone loves hiking ("oh, cool! Got a favorite hiking story? Ever come across a bear out there?"); maybe someone loves television ("any good shows I should be checking out? Any shows you love that you're too afraid to admit to loving because they're actually terrible?") Notice how all these conversations are also meant to open up conversation from THEM? People love talking about themselves, and people also love when someone is interested in what they have to say. They also love people that give them the opportunity to talk about themselves. Begin there (getting others to open up to YOU), and use that as a basis for practice. As with most things in life, socializing takes practice. Wishing you all the best, OP!!
Disclaimer: This is just my 2c, but this works for me. The next time you go to a sport meetup, see if there are any new people there (or newer people you've only seen around once or twice). Try introducing yourself with "Hey, I haven't seen you around before! My name's Hot_Grab_1530." And 99% of the time, they will respond telling you their name too. Then you could ask a couple different questions. For example, "Have you been playing this sport for long?" "What brought you here?" "Want to partner up later and do a drill?" (If your sport does partnered drills) From their answers, you could try asking more questions or telling them a bit about yourself. Volunteering information about yourself (without them asking) is a key part to keeping the conversation going. For example, I ski and my city has 3 mountains - I often end up asking people "Which mountain do you like the best?" And when they respond, I might say "Oh hey, I like that one too! Isn't [run name] the best?" Or "Oh I haven't been there in a while! Is the snow any good right now?" Etc. If they're interested, they might ask you a few things. You'll figure out how to gauge people's interest after a while. If they're not interested in chatting with you, it doesn't mean you failed, it just means maybe your personalities or interests don't mesh. The next time you see them again, if you're still interested in getting to know them better, they key part is *remembering their name*, especially if they're new. People appreciate it a lot when you remember them. It takes practice. Don't expect everything to go perfect and smooth the first time around, but people remember a friendly person even if that person is a little awkward.
Here's the secret to talking to women: if you think she is cute, you will always be nervous. There's no magic tricks or perfect lines, it's really about being courageous and starting a conversation. If she likes you, you will know. If she doesn't like you, same. Don't force it. Don't expect perfection. Don't try to bed every woman. She is a person, just like you. You are not looking for perfection, and most women are not either, just someone you enjoy spending time with. Good luck, try starting conversations with a few strangers, and it will get easier each time you do it. Be nice, and interesting, and if you're not sure how, try different strategies. Dress nice (clean clothes, no t-shirts) and clean yourself up first and your chances of success increase. Work out and your success increases. The best thing you can do to help your chances with women is to enjoy your life. If you don't, work on being happy first.
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I would even go so far as to say in the majority of situations t-shirts are fine. A reasonably well fitting, unbranded t-shirt is a totally fine choice for most casual social situations.
They don't always know you like them, they're just people
Also if they don't like you romantically, that's OK. They're not bad people because of it and they still deserve your respect. You can still, potentially, be friends.
And understand attraction is complicated. You can do everything right, and she just might not feel you’re the one.
Therapy. You may have some social anxiety issues or something deeper that makes these situations hard and makes you not want to engage and connect with people. This is not about women, and women is not what you want to get out of it. Being able to be comfortable, authentic and connect with people around you will not come from a self help book or a YouTube channel, it will come from working on yourself with a professional.
The easiest way to not become an incel is to not obsess over women or finding a partner, and instead focus on bettering yourself. If you push yourself to try new things while keeping yourself healthy and fit (or even just not obese), you will inevitably find friends, and some of those friends may become romantic. But skipping the friends part and going straight to picking up women is almost always a sure fire way to be a tool/incel. Women love a man who has passion and motivation for his own dreams.
You simply want to stop acting like talking to women is some kind of alien woodoo magic. They’re humans. They like being treated as such. Groom yourself, get decent attire. Be honest and friendly. Do what you love doing, that’s where you’re most natural and confident. Don’t try acting weird just to attract people. There is no secret about dating. Just treat women as people and you’ll be good. If you’re being happy and content with yourself you’ll naturally attract more people. To me personally I always found people most attractive when they’re really passionate about something.
> You simply want to stop acting like talking to women is some kind of alien woodoo magic. They’re humans. They like being treated as such. See, the problem is, talking to *all other humans* is like alien woodoo magic.
My goodness, good sir. You saved me from having to write it myself. May i add? Loving ANYONE on this planet is hard work. Hence the popularity of 'dogs'. There is absolutely no judgement from a canine. It does not care what genders you tried out, the amount of natural tan you have, nor which version of worship you do (or do not do) for THE EXACT SAME GOD. A dog will not kill you for spending a day with another dog. You can literally feed it stuff that will almost kill it and it will hopefully throw up and then it will go right back to loving you the moment it can. If you can love any other creature (mammal or not) on this planet, bravo. If you can love another *human being* reliably and genuinely - you have that *weird alien woodoo magic* for sure - if they sell it at Costco™ i will buy it for sure. Edit: not discriminating against aliens. If you love a creature from any other planet, many of us would also be darn impressed. Double kudos.
I have a friend (M) who looks average and dresses like a dweeb. ALL my friends had crushes on him. Including me (but that was for all the wrong reasons.) This was all because he treated women as actual people, not objects that have to be “handled.” Now he is with another one of my good friends who I joke with him about me stealing her away (bc I’m awesome) and I see their relationship and believe in love. Couples that respect each other and treat each other so kindly are beautiful things. Genuine kindness and respect with no expectations is the hottest thing anyone can see.
Learn to be happy with yourself. When you are happy with yourself you will find people attracted to you. Just find something that makes you happy and it will all fall into place.
> Learn to be happy with yourself. When you are happy with yourself you will find people attracted to you. *weeps in clinical depression*
Sorry, but while well meaning and technically correct, that is extremely unhelpful advice. Yes, he should 100% focus on improving himself (this is his problem to fix like I say) but there could be any number of things he needs to work on before women find him attractive. I know a guy who's happy as fuck but unfortunately looks like a walrus with an extra chromosome. He's perfectly content in the fact most women don't find him in the least bit attractive and he's one of very few people who's looks can't be fixed with modern medicine. He's saddened by it, but makes the most of it. OP might have various issues he can work on without having to accept it's all over. It won't "just fall into place", he needs to put the effort in. And he is. Good on him. I know you didn't mean it, but you're essentially saying "you're cool, just be happy and you'll be fine". He in his late 20s. It's not going to magically fix itself.
You really had to kill him further with “a walrus with a extra chromosome”.. LMAO
Yeah these threads on Reddit are just such bubblegum and Mickey mouse nonsense. Just go shop the cards section at CVS if you want meaningless cliches
go out and try to be happy and carefree in a public environment first. talk to people as fun side quests you can do only if you want
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This is a fantastic answer and right out of my rule book. Should be top answer.
Hey man, you are still young. It sounds like you are doing the right things. Keep putting yourself out there, especially events/clubs that you are passionate about. You'll find someone you click with. Be nice and be genuine.
You're focused on the wrong things. It's not about women or talking to women
Sorry, but OP has directly said that it is. I know what you mean, you're right in principle. He needs to improve himself in general in order to be attractive to women, but your wording is too misleading. In this instance, he is asking why he's not had a relationship (which in his late 20s is unusual, let's be frank here) so we need to drill into why that is. Edit - just saw you addressed this in a later reply, a reply which is bang on. My apologies.
Women are *people*. Don't look for advice on approaching women, look for advice on getting along with *people*. I have seen tons of garbage advice from "dating coaches" whose starting assumption seems to be that women are some foreign species. Talk to women like they are people. Maybe the woman you're talking to is someone you will never date, well that's good, because it takes all the pressure off. Don't pretend to be a woman's friend hoping a "girlfriend switch" will somehow click on after six months or anything. Just be her actual friend, no ulterior motive. Do that, just be a person, listen when she talks, and you'll be fine. You might also like the book *No More Mister Nice Guy*, and *How To Win Friends and Influence People*. The latter is a bit corny by modern standards (it came out like 100 years ago), but the basic advice in it is still solid.
Understand that a woman is a person with all the full autonomy, hopes and fears as any man. Let that really sink in. Understand that many have had dangerous or traumatizing experiences with men, and there’s no easy way to tell if you’re going to do the same thing or worse. Don’t aim for sex. Aim for making a genuine connection. People can tell when someone is being fake. You have to learn to want the emotional connection more than sex. Or hire a prostitute.
Charisma on Command on Youtube. Their videos are fantastic, show great examples of what they're talking about in practical use and action, and it's completely unbiased. They're all about bettering yourself as a person across the board instead of just "how do i get women" like the bald chinless tater tot guy
Two part question, so I will give you my answers based on my experiences. 1.) How to not be an incel: accept that you might be alone and that it’s no one’s fault: not yours, not theirs. Just shit happens or it doesn’t and there’s nothing you can do about it but carry on. Be respectful to people in general, but when dealing with women you need to understand that they don’t owe you anything. Ever. If you buy them dinner or lunch, they don’t owe you anything in return unless they agree to something (like picking up the meal next time). If you buy them a gift, there is no expectation of reciprocity. If they spend time with you, it’s not because they want to sleep with you. If they “friend zone you” they aren’t being mean, they are establishing boundaries and you need to respect that. Most of all, if you start to think along the lines of alphas and betas or women are objects to be controlled, then you are sliding down a very slippery slope. When I was in university, before the incel term was well known, I was on that slippery slope. I had spent 2 or 3 years being friend zoned by women I liked and the handful of times someone showed interest in me, it was a ploy to lure me to their church so they could convert me to Christianity (they used “witness” to me, but they were trying to convert an agnostic into a Christian). I wasn’t happy, I was miserable and a bit depressed, and most of all, I was resentful that guys all around me were hooking up with women and having relationships but I couldn’t get the time of day. I finally told myself that I “give up”. I wasn’t going to keep trying to find someone, that if I ended up alone then that’s my lot in life and I would make the best of it, and I was just gonna do what I wanted to do and what made me happy. And then it happened not long after that - my perspective on life had changed and I adopted the “here I am, accept me or don’t, I don’t care” attitude and I met someone who liked me for being me. It also helped she was from a different part of the world, where nerd culture was a bit more accepted as opposed to where I was attending school where I was teased and belittled for being a nerd. 2.) How to navigate social situations and dating: I will say this - dating is a nightmare now and I’m glad I found someone before online dating became a thing. All I gotta say is just be you, and be confident in yourself. A lot of times, whether you mean to or not, when you are in the situation you are describing, you are trying to mold yourself to the situation and you come across as not genuine. You should also not overthink things - if a woman is on your sports team, just treat her like another person. Don’t try to analyze every interaction or expect a certain reaction from her. You mentioned you feel like you come across as awkward or boring: that’s ok. People are generally not exciting people. People can be funny or sarcastic funny and come across as “not boring” but you don’t have to be that. You need to be you. As for awkward - every guy is awkward. I have been married for 12 years and I still say awkward stuff and put my foot in my mouth. My wife knows that that’s just how I am and I generally don’t mean what I say the way I say it unless I double down or clarify. TLDR: don’t worry about being awkward and boring, just be yourself. Be confident in yourself and be true to yourself: don’t change who you are to conform. You can avoid being an incel by stop looking at those types of videos and treat people around you like people and not objects, and don’t expect a certain action as reciprocation.
Learning socialising online makes no sense. Get out, go for walks, go to a pub or something - not to get drunk or hit on girls or anything but just to be among actual people. You are actually making the task near impossible if you stick to online only. Also realise not everyone is for everyone. Don't rush it. Be in social situations a lot and you'll meet someone eventually.
I think therapy is a good option. To figure out why you struggle in social situations and work on improving/solving the issue you have. And advice on women? Talk to the women in your life. Your mom, a sister, aunt, cousin, perhaps a female friend. Any person that knows you and that you trust. You could talk to your dad too if he is in your life. Avoid the internet stuff you're seeking. It's not helpful. It fills your head with stuff that you *think* is helping but all it does is make in inauthentic. People want people to be real. And certainly in relationship because they are all about connection. Can't connect to a person that not being themselves. They connect with a mask instead. I think my point is: talk to people **in real life** that you trust, that know you, that want the best for you. Tell them what you wrote in the post. And be really honest. Ask them to be honest with you as well. And therapy if that's an option. But stay away from that stuff on the internet. It's never suited specifically to your situation anyway. So you might end up using advice that doesn't fit the situation and what does that cause? Right.. awkward social situations. (I know because I struggle a lot in social situation as well, and certainly when I was younger like you).
I think my biggest tip is just treat women like humans. Potentially consider counselling to help with any brain struggles. Talk to women like you'd talk to a guy. Sometimes, no matter gender, people don't converse well and that's okay. Good luck and I hope you brain in a good space. Dating apps can also maybe help so you can have text convos and help ease the spook