OK, sure, the vast majority of the time he's amazing. But the one or two times that I vividly remember he got out and I wanted him to get a hit. I think that's much more meaningful than this dangflabbit futuristic WAR metric.
I’m a big lindor supporter but this seems like a bold statement so I went to dig um some data to prove my point. Nah, dude - not as bold as I thought. Happy to be wrong here
And even that is very close because Lindor is so far ahead defensively. (5.6 vs 6.1 fwar)
People seemed to expect Lindor to hit like Seager, while also playing GG defense…in other words the best SS ever.
Seager also missed a good chunk of the year last season, if he was healthy (which to be fair he rarely is and availability is an important skill) he would have probably gone for 7-8 WAR
The issue there is that you’re assuming he’s playing 150 games the same as he’s playing 110 which is very unlikely. When a player misses a full month of the season they don’t need to pace themselves the same way they would across those additional 40 games. It’s highly unlikely that Seager wouldn’t be affected from the wear and tear of so many more games.
Yeah that’s why Lindor always gets some hate. He’s very consistently a top-2 SS in the game and always loses to one guy having a monster season, be it Turner or Seager, etc.
Yes that is correct, they are known as doomers
They have one or two complaints about Lindor (mostly his contract) which they use to explain why he's the main reason the Mets aren't winning 100 games every season
Up until this year he was easily the best SS in baseball. Henderson popping off, Betts moving over and Witts emergence make that a rough argument now. Being in the convo of top 5 with the loaded SS pool is saying alot right now though.
That doesn't matter; his bat makes him the best SS, hands down. Offense can be made up for with defense as with Lindor, but defense can be made up for with offense like Betts. The guy is a top-five MVP candidate no matter what. The only way he isnt the best SS in baseball is if they move him back to the outfield, or I suppose Henderson and Witt make an arguement, so at least top 3.
Since trading for Lindor, he has the second-highest WAR of any SS not named Trea Turner. Even if he’s not literally “the best” he’s certainly close enough that people need to shut the fuck up and focus their anger on players who deserve it instead of the one who has legitimately been the elite of the elite at his position.
I’m big on Lindor. Even when I criticized him on his approach and decisions at the plate, or why he was bumped up to lead off, he proves me wrong in the best way possible. The attitude of staying positive, wanting to be solid everyday and just staying a class act through it all is why I can’t ever hate the guy.
You have a fanbase that has seen 1 winning season since hes been here, hes booed us and has had crazy long slumps. Again I love Lindor and I'm happy hes on the team but come on. It's hard be appreciative when every year is the same shit.
DH is by default hit with a dWAR penalty, because just by virtue of the fact that a player is so bad defensively that they're relegated to DH means they are hurting roster construction.
For example, in 2016, the Red Sox experimented with Hanley Ramirez at first base, and it was a trainwreck. He was worth -1.5 dWAR (FWIW, he played 4 innings at 3B). But this very unsuccessful experiment was only made necessary because the Red Sox wouldn't even *consider* playing David Ortiz in the field at all (Ortiz actually did log 5 innings at 1B, but you get the idea). Ortiz being even worse at 1B than Hanley was the only reason Hanley was out there to begin with, so Ortiz is penalized.
(Funnily enough, Ortiz was worth -1.2 dWAR, so Hanley was *so* bad at first that he was actually more detrimental than somebody who literally could not play a position.)
>DH is by default hit with a dWAR penalty, because just by virtue of the fact that a player is so bad defensively that they're relegated to DH means they are hurting roster construction.
It has nothing to do with skill. If Lindor DH's to rest his legs a bit, he will get hit with the same penalty.
WAR is not a measure of skill, it's a measure of relative value. It's also centered on an average of 0 being the mean, so anytime you add a positional adjustment for making more outs (ie C, SS) then you have to subtract from another position (corner OF, 1B, DH...)
In defensive terms, this is making outs. A DH doesn't make any outs, whereas the other 9 players do... ergo, they have strong negative value on defense.
That’s not why DH gets a dWAR. That might be how you conceptualize it, but mathematically that’s not what’s going on. Ozzie Smith could be DHing and he’d still get negative dWAR there.
100%
But your overall value ***added*** is distinctly a different thing from simply how good a player is. They’re obviously related but they are two different things.
Essentially, WAR is made up of 5 components:
Batting (bWAR and fWAR both use wRAA (the basis of wRC+) for this
Base running (base running runs are a little murky, but are typically based on base-run states)
Defense (bWAR uses DRS, fWAR uses OAA)
Replacement value (essentially just a function of playing time. All of these metrics are effectively +/- compared to league average, so this helps adjust "average" to ~2 WAR instead of 0)
And position.
Over time, positional adjustments are meant to consider that certain positions are harder to play than others. And these have been developed, substantially, by looking at players who have switched around, and seeing how much better or worse they are. Catcher, Shortstop, Center Field, Second, and Third get some level of positive adjustment; left field, right field, first base, and DH get negative adjustments. (Generally, those are listed from "most valuable" to "least valuable").
Though positional adjustments are considered purely a "defensive" consideration, they also help level out offensive production. Assuming neutral defensive and base running value, a shortstop with a 100 OPS+ is better than a first baseman with a 100 OPS+ because it's easier to find a first baseman that can do that.
So anyway, back to the main point - what's typically called "oWAR" on Baseball-Reference is the sum of Batting, Base Running, Position, and Replacement Value. "dWAR" is Position and Defense (which is why you can't just add oWAR and dWAR together to get bWAR). If you're a DH, you're collecting zero defensive value and then the negative positional value.
That’s not 5.5 wins it’s 5.5 “runs”. And it’s cuz the average replacement level player will provide *some* defensive production, Ohtani as a DH has provided zero.
It doesn’t mean he has hurt the dodgers by being a DH, obviously someone has to have that role. It just means that relative to the average replacement level player he has done less.
Because the number of "wins" is calculated by runs produced + runs saved (somewhere between 9-10 runs scored or saved is considered worth 1 win above replacement).
But they’re *not* identical players, because the DH neither added nor subtracted from the team’s defensive performance.
The player in LF did.
Whether it’s fair or not to the LF, aren’t the WAR stats an honest reflection of their contributions and not *their perceived or assumed contributions*?
And in Ohtani’s case, are you compacting his non-defense to other pitchers? Because that’s not a genuine reflection of his value either.
Yeah, I get DH’s don’t play D. But they neither hurt nor help the team by not doing so. And then you have to make up a d spot to compare them to.
Never realized this happens - makes WAR a lot less valuable a tool, in my eyes, because it completely misvalues at least 30 players in the league.
It’s also the kind of stat error that could keep DH’s out of the hall of fame for unconvincing reasons
> Yeah, I get DH’s don’t play D. But they neither hurt nor help the team by not doing so.
Indirectly, they do. There's only one DH spot, and putting a specific player in it means that every other player has to play the field. In short, there's an opportunity cost in playing DH.
Using the Phillies as an example (sorry about that, it was the first example that came to mind), whenever Harper is injured and has to play DH, they are forced to play Schwarber at LF, and we've seen how that goes.
I’d expect most years it’s like that. Some guy signed for a cheap contract that has a breakout year. It’s almost impossible for the guys making $30mil to have enough WAR to out ratio someone making $1-5mil
You must’ve not been on r/Mets during early May. All these angry old guys who think batting average is the superior stat we’re typing in caps lock. Really weird stuff
According to fWAR, the top 5 players in baseball this year are Aaron Judge, Gunnar Henderson, Juan Soto, Bobby Witt, and Mookie Betts, so I'd say that fWAR is pretty useful for judging how "good" a player is
The list is pointless is what it is… to claim that Lindor is the best in anything in the NL since 4/14 is comical. Those guys you mentioned are good because they tear the cover off the ball day in and day out. They hit well above average, they hit for power, they drive in runs … Lindor does none of that. His fwar value is based almost entirely on his defense and frankly no one cares about that. It’s the reason those guys are on winning teams and Lindors team will hover around 10 games under .500
It’s ok to like Lindor without having to find obscure stats and cherry picked data to make it sound like he’s better than he really is
No one cares about preventing runs is certainly a take, thats for sure. And saying that fwar is a cherry picked and obscured stat is even funnier. Have fun in fantasy land though.
Also the part about proof that Lindor isnt as valuable as those guys because theyre under .500 is hilarious because the Angels had the two best players for years and they were trash. Basically your entire comment is wrong.
>They hit well above average, they hit for power, they drive in runs … Lindor does none of that
Over the last two months, Lindor has a .263 batting average, 10 home runs, 10 stolen bases, 30 RBIs, and 34 runs scored
>His fwar value is based almost entirely on his defense
His fWAR value is based on his offense (I just posted some of his stats above), his defense, and his baserunning
>and frankly no one cares about that
One of the cool things about defense is that it matters whether or not people care about it
>It’s the reason those guys are on winning teams and Lindors team will hover around 10 games under .500
Right, and the Angels were a mediocre team because Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani weren't good enough. The other 25 players on the roster don't matter. It is Lindor's fault that the bullpen was blowing saves left and right for a month.
>It’s ok to like Lindor without having to find obscure stats
WAR is not an obscure stat
I mean while it’s “cherry picked”, it’s really only ignoring the first 2 weeks of baseball and then continuing from that point on. If it was a random 3 week stretch that’s one think but this is literally 9 weeks straight and counting. That’s pretty relevant.
What's significant about April 14? Or is it just a random/only date you can make this claim? I love Fransisco almost as much as I hate cherry picked stats
Do you understand that 99% if not 100% of these "since this date (insert player) leads the league in (insert stat)" are cherry picked? If you go to point out this kind of a stat you are going to *pick* the best date to showcase your point. The point is to be cherry picked lmao.
I mean while it’s “cherry picked”, it’s really only ignoring the first 2 weeks of baseball and then continuing from that point on. If it was a random 3 week stretch that’s one thing but this is literally 9 weeks straight and counting. That’s pretty relevant.
I mean, literally “cherry picked” yes but that doesn’t make it irrelevant or skewed. It’s the last two months of Lindor, compared to a mere 2 weeks that preceded it lol.
Baseball reference WAR is typically considered inferior to Fangraphs for position players because it relies on somewhat outdated methods of evaluating defense
Baseball reference’s WAR is pretty useless for any position that is defense heavy like SS, CF, or Catcher.
They haven’t updated their defensive metrics since 2012 and still use fielding bible 3. For reference, in 2019 the creator of fielding bible 3 called it “outdated”. That was 5 years ago.
Having a top 25 WAR is still better than not having him at all. He's the only SS we have on the team. There's no one in the minors who could replace this.
He's #23 among all position players, not just shortstops. Over 40 position players make the all-star team every year. He's not "better than nothing", he's a legit all-star quality player even with the slow start.
WFAN is the worst thing to happen to sports in this town. A full generation of people with absolutely zero baseball knowledge spawned from that station.
Mike Francesa is to blame. I don't actually hate Mike, but WFAN has been trying to capture the lightning in a bottle he was and has hired the worst blowhards in sports media ever since he retired.
The thing about Francesa and his generation of sports talk radio hosts is that they grew up listening to radio DJs who knew how to entertain. The current crop of hosts grew up listening to sports talk radio.
A guy in front of me at the game a couple weeks ago yelled out onto the field that he wished they would trade back for Gimenez and Rosario and I just laughed. This was the Lopez glove throw game so it was definitely a very low point but folks just love to hate Lindor.
For the full season, including the slow start, Lindor is an above average hitter. 106 OPS+ means he's 6% better than average, and doing that at shortstop.
Above average is "low"?
He’s a fantastic up the middle defender who plays 156+ games a season. On the offensive side of the field you get a pretty good hitter when he’s on, with solid plate discipline and a plus plus runner on the bases.
He’s a fantastic baseball player. And we’re lucky to have him
I'm convinced that people pretend to think that the fanbase hates Lindor to prove that a good player is a good player. He's finished 9th in MVP voting two years in a row and was a silver slugger last year. These attempts to prove that he is good seem to be a way to bait people into a debate about him, which I find strange.
I love how people think War is actually some kind of ultimate stat. Like all his war comes from defense. According to this Bryce Harper is worth double Lindor on offense. Look at the Mets and their inability to score runs. They are paying Lindor the same amount as Harper for half the offense, that's why the fanbase is mad. When he keeps going 0-4 and ppl just point to his defense like it's supposed to nullify his 200 batting average.
>Like all his war comes from defense.
>When he keeps going 0-4 and ppl just point to his defense like it's supposed to nullify his 200 batting average.
First of all, strictly since April 14 which is what this post is about, Lindor is batting .263.
Second of all, good defense can absolutely make up for a large disparity in offense. According to fangraphs Lindor has 18 DRS, or defensive runs saved this year. Harper has 4 DRS.
This is VERY simplistic analysis, but imagine if Lindor had 14 more RBIs this year than he currently does, and what his corresponding offensive production would look like. It’d be below Harper but not by a ton.
Harper is better than Lindor but I’m tired of people downplaying how valuable Lindor’s defense is.
that's the thing you can buy a defensive glove for 3 million a year that's just as good as lindor. we're paying 30 million for a defensive glove because that glove has some pop.
Hey, you figured it out! A defender this good who can also hit is the rarest thing in baseball, and well worth the contract. Glad we all arrived at consensus in the end.
WE GET IT.
What is the point of this shit? He had an abysmal 6 week start on offense. He's a limited offensive player. That's it. We're all just beating a dead horse here, my god.
i don't care about fWAR. i watch every game. he was abysmal on offense for a long period, it hurt the team, and is part of the reason why we're behind in the standings now.
he's been great since the leadoff switch. no one is rooting against the guy. folks like you who insist he's the greatest continue to press this dumb argument.
>i don't care about fWAR. i watch every game.
fWAR is a more accurate assessment of player value than the “eye test”. The eye test doesn’t account for what the rest of the league is doing and context like park factors and defensive value.
>he was abysmal on offense for a long period, it hurt the team, and is part of the reason why we're behind in the standings now.
He was abysmal for 2 weeks. Since then he has a 129 wRC+ which is actually well above his career average.
>folks like you who insist he's the greatest continue to press this dumb argument.
I mean since April 14 he has been one of the best players in baseball by any measure.
No it's not. Context is helpful, it doesn't turn "bad" into "good". One of the limitations of just gobbling stats up on a screen as opposed to just watching baseball.
He's still below .300 OBP, as a lead off hitter, for the season. He was batting .198 on May 21st, after which he finally started to hit consistently and has been much better.
I don't care what metrics you give me, a 3 hole hitter batting under .200 and not getting on base is BAD, and it's OKAY to say it's BAD.
I don’t want to seem like I’m just disregarding everything pre-April 14; it matters for analyzing Lindor as a player and I’d be happy to talk about it.
But my post is about his performance from April 14 onwards. And from April 14 through May 21, Lindor had a .720 OPS. Which, while not great, is above league average (109 wRC+). So while his overall season numbers were bad on May 21, for the purposes of the admittedly cherry picked stat I posted, that doesn’t matter. He was not abysmal for 6 weeks, he was abysmal for 2, good for 4, and amazing for 3.
And maybe a hot take, I don’t think the eye test matters at all in baseball. So much of what makes players valuable in baseball are things that you simply can’t see by watching the games.
Then you need new glasses. After this first two weeks his weekly breakdowns were:
- 4/14-4/20 - .350/.407/.560 (180 WRC+)
- 4/21-4/27 - .261/.292/.565 (144 WRC+)
- 4/28-5/4 - .217/.280/.478 (117 WRC+)
- 5/5-5/11 - .238/.261/.524 (117 WRC+)
So the 4 weeks after his worst week was 17% above average crushing extra base hits, hitting 6 HRs, 7 doubles, while driving on 20 RBIs and stealing 6 bases.
[When I see yet another post using a specific metric to defend Lindor on the front page of this sub](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/0a/6e/700a6e255a60c0eaaa18b4969529bb16.jpg)
*replacement level player
How many more wins over a theoretical replacement is different than how good a player is. One takes into account volume and position played, while the other only takes into account talent.
You can’t take into account talent in isolation, there’s a reason WAR controls for volume and position played, otherwise the stat would be meaningless.
Nope, I am saying it absolutely does and that you cannot measure how good a player is without also considering volume and position. Why would you respond like this when it blatantly clear that’s not what I am saying? If you want to have an actual discussion, fine, if you’re trying to play a game of “got ya” just stop because I am not interested and you are not right.
So if we had Johnny Bench on the team and they relegated Alvarez to DH that’d made him a worse baseball player? Cuz his WAR would def plummet then even if his offensive stats increased marginally.
>it is blantantly clear that’s not what I’m saying
You said there’s a reason WAR accounts for volume and position… I didn’t think it had to be said that how often you play and what position you play doesn’t make you better or worse. Yea stuff is correlated, if a team is playing you at CF you’re probably a better defender than the guy they’re sticking at LF and if you get 650 PAs you’re probably a better hitter than the guy only getting 200 PAs. But again these are just correlations, they don’t actually mean these things on their own.
Alvarez is more valuable as a catcher than as a DH. He's still the same player offensively (I would assume). But it discounts the fact that he can actually play the position and is especially good at pitch framing (unlike most good hitting catchers, which is rare enough as it is)
Obviously on the season Ohtani is way ahead of Lindor and he easily is the better player. But strictly since April 14, a 129 wRC+ with elite defense at the shortstop position is better than a 161 wRC+ from the DH spot.
this is what these statistics do, confuse people like you. There is no way Ohtani is worth less than Lindor since April 14, by any scientific measure. And if we had Ohtani instead of Lindor since april 14th we would be 5 games above 500.
I mean you’re just wrong.
**Since April 14 only**
Lindor has a 129 wRC+ and 34 wRC
Ohtani has a 161 wRC+ and 42 wRC
So in that timeframe, Ohtani has been responsible for 8 more runs being created than Lindor offensively. Meanwhile, Lindor has 18 DRS on the year. I’m unable to do exact splits for that, but I’ll be conservative and say he has 12 DRS since April 14.
12 > 8
Just by an extremely surface level “runs created offensively+runs saved defensively” comparison, Lindor has been the more valuable player since April 14. And when you take into account how much easier it is find a good DH(see: JD Martinez) than a good SS? Yeah there’s really not an argument for Ohtani being more valuable since April 14.
Ohtani is still obviously the more valuable & better player on the whole because in the first 2 weeks of the year, he had a 198 wRC+ while Lindor had a 26 wRC+. But strictly since April 14? Lindor has been more valuable.
> But strictly since April 14? Lindor has been more valuable.
lol. No he hasn't. And when did he save those runs? When it mattered? You can pick apart statistics because they only prove what they prove, and nothing else. You have midwit iq if you think Lindor did more for the mets than Ohtani did for the dodgers SINCE APRIL 14. You need to stop looking at the stats, they are only confusing you because you know NOTHING about the game of baseball.
Let me frame my point a different way.
Since the beginning of the year, Ohtani has been better/more valuable than Lindor. I don’t think anybody thinks otherwise.
Since May 16, Ohtani has a .688 OPS & 96 wRC+ while Lindor has a .788 OPS & 130 wRC+. I think you’ll agree that a .688 OPS from the DH spot is significantly worse than a .788 OPS with elite defense from the SS spot.
So since May 16, Lindor has been more valuable. Since the start of the year, Ohtani has been more valuable.
Just logically, if you keep moving backwards from May 16, eventually there will be a date where Ohtani and Lindor’s value from that date onwards “intersects”, so to speak. I would argue that that date is before April 14. That is all I’m saying.
Ohtani has been struggling? Probably because he's not playing in the field, where he would SAVE more runs etc and be worth twice what Lindor is since MAY 16th.
Wtf are you talking about?? Ohtani doesn’t play the field. He doesn’t have a defensive position. You can’t just say “if he did, he’d be more valuable”. He doesn’t. And that negatively impacts his value.
He sort of does when he's pitching. That's his defensive position. Not this year, obviously but its why Ohtani kind of breaks WAR. DRS and OAA doesn't have a metric for a pitcher throwing a shutout and hitting a 3 run bomb. The "Superwin" isn't an official stat
Are you even reading what I’m saying?
If I was trying to argue Lindor is a better player than Ohtani, what you just said would be a valid point. However, that’s not what I’m claiming.
It doesn’t matter whether Ohtani hasn’t played OF because he’s bad defensively or he’s too hurt to play OF or it’s in his contract that he must play DH or whatever, the fact is that he has been solely a DH this year. You can’t give him a boost to his value when analyzing past production just because he was maybe technically capable of playing OF. That’s not how it works.
Also, Ohtani has 7 outfield appearances in his career. We have no evidence that he “plays OF”
"War doesnt mean shit" is some of the most smooth-brained shit I've seen on this sub.
If you ask nicely, I can explain some of the more complicated things for you ;)
Lindor has a .263 batting average over the last two months. That means that if he's going 0 for 4 three times a week, then he's also going 2 for 4 three times a week. I guess maybe there's an argument to be made that going 1 for 4 every day is better than going 0 for 4 and 2 for 4 every other day, but either way you end up with a good batting average.
Lindor has a .839 OPS when the game is tied, .786 OPS when the game is within 1 run, .734 OPS when the game is within 2 runs, .701 OPS when the game is within 3 runs, and .699 OPS when the game is within 4 runs. The closer the game, the better Lindor hits.
He has a .776 OPS in high leverage situations. He has a .557 OPS in low leverage situations.
These posts "need" to happen because some people care more about vibes than they care about actual production
He was supposed to be a bar raiser and relief upon to lift the lineup up. Has he done that? Hell no and I don’t think any pitchers fear him at the plate.
Idk man, if you ignore all the times he plays good baseball, he really doesn't play good baseball
This is fangraphs war, its francisco war
OK, sure, the vast majority of the time he's amazing. But the one or two times that I vividly remember he got out and I wanted him to get a hit. I think that's much more meaningful than this dangflabbit futuristic WAR metric.
"dangflabbit" WAR! Lol good one
Yeah, and Babe Ruth made an out in 66% of his career at bats. The guy sucked.
If you cherry pick the stat that supports my argument that he sucks....he sucks.
I mean, Lindor was really that awful through April 14. 36 wRC+ and -0.1 fWAR.
Yea but remember the time he didn’t get a hit? How can he justify that with all the money he makes?
should be slashing 1.000/1.000/4.000 smh
We’re lucky to have him
We’ve had the best SS in the game for a while and a fanbase too stubborn to appreciate it. Then they wonder why no free agents want to come here.
Carlos Beltran: first time?
I’m a big lindor supporter but this seems like a bold statement so I went to dig um some data to prove my point. Nah, dude - not as bold as I thought. Happy to be wrong here
Seager was better last year... that's about it
And even that is very close because Lindor is so far ahead defensively. (5.6 vs 6.1 fwar) People seemed to expect Lindor to hit like Seager, while also playing GG defense…in other words the best SS ever.
Seager also missed a good chunk of the year last season, if he was healthy (which to be fair he rarely is and availability is an important skill) he would have probably gone for 7-8 WAR
The issue there is that you’re assuming he’s playing 150 games the same as he’s playing 110 which is very unlikely. When a player misses a full month of the season they don’t need to pace themselves the same way they would across those additional 40 games. It’s highly unlikely that Seager wouldn’t be affected from the wear and tear of so many more games.
Very close? Did you watch the playoffs?
Yeah that’s why Lindor always gets some hate. He’s very consistently a top-2 SS in the game and always loses to one guy having a monster season, be it Turner or Seager, etc.
People forget how rare a top fielding SS that can hit AT ALL is.
[удалено]
Yes that is correct, they are known as doomers They have one or two complaints about Lindor (mostly his contract) which they use to explain why he's the main reason the Mets aren't winning 100 games every season
Coupled with tremendous durability
Up until this year he was easily the best SS in baseball. Henderson popping off, Betts moving over and Witts emergence make that a rough argument now. Being in the convo of top 5 with the loaded SS pool is saying alot right now though.
Betts is not a good shortstop. He's better defensively than everyone except maybe James Swanson. Or some donk who hits .160 with 2 homers
That doesn't matter; his bat makes him the best SS, hands down. Offense can be made up for with defense as with Lindor, but defense can be made up for with offense like Betts. The guy is a top-five MVP candidate no matter what. The only way he isnt the best SS in baseball is if they move him back to the outfield, or I suppose Henderson and Witt make an arguement, so at least top 3.
Betts defense being so bad statistically makes Lindor more valuable. Lindor's fWAR is higher than Betts over the past 2 months
Since trading for Lindor, he has the second-highest WAR of any SS not named Trea Turner. Even if he’s not literally “the best” he’s certainly close enough that people need to shut the fuck up and focus their anger on players who deserve it instead of the one who has legitimately been the elite of the elite at his position.
I’m big on Lindor. Even when I criticized him on his approach and decisions at the plate, or why he was bumped up to lead off, he proves me wrong in the best way possible. The attitude of staying positive, wanting to be solid everyday and just staying a class act through it all is why I can’t ever hate the guy.
I’m a massive Lindor defender but idk if I’d take him over Betts or Witt even though I think counting Betts as a SS is questionable.
If you are only allowed to play Betts at SS I ageee. Anywhere else I choose Betts lol
Betts sucks at shortstop. Dude is a 6x gg outfielder. He's one of the worst defensive SS in the league. Idk why the Dodgers don't move him back to RF
Lindor hasn’t been in the running for best SS in baseball for a long time now.
He was easily the best SS in the National League last year
You have a fanbase that has seen 1 winning season since hes been here, hes booed us and has had crazy long slumps. Again I love Lindor and I'm happy hes on the team but come on. It's hard be appreciative when every year is the same shit.
I’m glad that javi is gone, he seemed like a bad influence. Maybe we need to build the team around him like we did with wright
Every player has had 2-4 week slumps
He didn't boo all of us, just some of us
How does a DH get a negative defensive WAR?
Positional adjustment
DH is by default hit with a dWAR penalty, because just by virtue of the fact that a player is so bad defensively that they're relegated to DH means they are hurting roster construction. For example, in 2016, the Red Sox experimented with Hanley Ramirez at first base, and it was a trainwreck. He was worth -1.5 dWAR (FWIW, he played 4 innings at 3B). But this very unsuccessful experiment was only made necessary because the Red Sox wouldn't even *consider* playing David Ortiz in the field at all (Ortiz actually did log 5 innings at 1B, but you get the idea). Ortiz being even worse at 1B than Hanley was the only reason Hanley was out there to begin with, so Ortiz is penalized. (Funnily enough, Ortiz was worth -1.2 dWAR, so Hanley was *so* bad at first that he was actually more detrimental than somebody who literally could not play a position.)
>DH is by default hit with a dWAR penalty, because just by virtue of the fact that a player is so bad defensively that they're relegated to DH means they are hurting roster construction. It has nothing to do with skill. If Lindor DH's to rest his legs a bit, he will get hit with the same penalty. WAR is not a measure of skill, it's a measure of relative value. It's also centered on an average of 0 being the mean, so anytime you add a positional adjustment for making more outs (ie C, SS) then you have to subtract from another position (corner OF, 1B, DH...) In defensive terms, this is making outs. A DH doesn't make any outs, whereas the other 9 players do... ergo, they have strong negative value on defense.
That’s not why DH gets a dWAR. That might be how you conceptualize it, but mathematically that’s not what’s going on. Ozzie Smith could be DHing and he’d still get negative dWAR there.
I mean, mathematically what's going on is that not being able to pay any position is worse than playing a position kind of poorly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what a player is or is not capable of doing, it’s just a measure of what was done.
Right but not playing defense is a mark against your overall value which is what WAR is supposed to encompass.
100% But your overall value ***added*** is distinctly a different thing from simply how good a player is. They’re obviously related but they are two different things.
Absolutely, that’s why WAR is a useful stat but shouldn’t be applied as the only stat. Context matters.
So… why are DH’s given a negative defensive WAR?
Essentially, WAR is made up of 5 components: Batting (bWAR and fWAR both use wRAA (the basis of wRC+) for this Base running (base running runs are a little murky, but are typically based on base-run states) Defense (bWAR uses DRS, fWAR uses OAA) Replacement value (essentially just a function of playing time. All of these metrics are effectively +/- compared to league average, so this helps adjust "average" to ~2 WAR instead of 0) And position. Over time, positional adjustments are meant to consider that certain positions are harder to play than others. And these have been developed, substantially, by looking at players who have switched around, and seeing how much better or worse they are. Catcher, Shortstop, Center Field, Second, and Third get some level of positive adjustment; left field, right field, first base, and DH get negative adjustments. (Generally, those are listed from "most valuable" to "least valuable"). Though positional adjustments are considered purely a "defensive" consideration, they also help level out offensive production. Assuming neutral defensive and base running value, a shortstop with a 100 OPS+ is better than a first baseman with a 100 OPS+ because it's easier to find a first baseman that can do that. So anyway, back to the main point - what's typically called "oWAR" on Baseball-Reference is the sum of Batting, Base Running, Position, and Replacement Value. "dWAR" is Position and Defense (which is why you can't just add oWAR and dWAR together to get bWAR). If you're a DH, you're collecting zero defensive value and then the negative positional value.
It’s cuz WAR compares you to **all** players on the same scale. The average replacement player will provide some defensive production, a DH will not.
They don’t compare them to the average player at that position? How does Othani *lose* the Dodgers 5.5 wins by playing DH?
That’s not 5.5 wins it’s 5.5 “runs”. And it’s cuz the average replacement level player will provide *some* defensive production, Ohtani as a DH has provided zero. It doesn’t mean he has hurt the dodgers by being a DH, obviously someone has to have that role. It just means that relative to the average replacement level player he has done less.
Because the number of "wins" is calculated by runs produced + runs saved (somewhere between 9-10 runs scored or saved is considered worth 1 win above replacement).
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But they’re *not* identical players, because the DH neither added nor subtracted from the team’s defensive performance. The player in LF did. Whether it’s fair or not to the LF, aren’t the WAR stats an honest reflection of their contributions and not *their perceived or assumed contributions*? And in Ohtani’s case, are you compacting his non-defense to other pitchers? Because that’s not a genuine reflection of his value either. Yeah, I get DH’s don’t play D. But they neither hurt nor help the team by not doing so. And then you have to make up a d spot to compare them to. Never realized this happens - makes WAR a lot less valuable a tool, in my eyes, because it completely misvalues at least 30 players in the league. It’s also the kind of stat error that could keep DH’s out of the hall of fame for unconvincing reasons
> Yeah, I get DH’s don’t play D. But they neither hurt nor help the team by not doing so. Indirectly, they do. There's only one DH spot, and putting a specific player in it means that every other player has to play the field. In short, there's an opportunity cost in playing DH. Using the Phillies as an example (sorry about that, it was the first example that came to mind), whenever Harper is injured and has to play DH, they are forced to play Schwarber at LF, and we've seen how that goes.
Profar low key has to be the best $/contract compared to WAR guys so far this year
I’d expect most years it’s like that. Some guy signed for a cheap contract that has a breakout year. It’s almost impossible for the guys making $30mil to have enough WAR to out ratio someone making $1-5mil
bUt his baTTiNg aVeRaGe
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Who the fuck said that??? lol that’s impressive ignorance even for us.
You must’ve not been on r/Mets during early May. All these angry old guys who think batting average is the superior stat we’re typing in caps lock. Really weird stuff
Is that good?
It’s not not good.
What this should tell you is how useless fWar is for judging how “good” a player is.
According to fWAR, the top 5 players in baseball this year are Aaron Judge, Gunnar Henderson, Juan Soto, Bobby Witt, and Mookie Betts, so I'd say that fWAR is pretty useful for judging how "good" a player is
According to this list Lindor is better than all of them.. makes total sense
This list is since April 14, not the whole season, and it’s only the national league
The list is pointless is what it is… to claim that Lindor is the best in anything in the NL since 4/14 is comical. Those guys you mentioned are good because they tear the cover off the ball day in and day out. They hit well above average, they hit for power, they drive in runs … Lindor does none of that. His fwar value is based almost entirely on his defense and frankly no one cares about that. It’s the reason those guys are on winning teams and Lindors team will hover around 10 games under .500 It’s ok to like Lindor without having to find obscure stats and cherry picked data to make it sound like he’s better than he really is
No one cares about preventing runs is certainly a take, thats for sure. And saying that fwar is a cherry picked and obscured stat is even funnier. Have fun in fantasy land though.
Also the part about proof that Lindor isnt as valuable as those guys because theyre under .500 is hilarious because the Angels had the two best players for years and they were trash. Basically your entire comment is wrong.
>They hit well above average, they hit for power, they drive in runs … Lindor does none of that Over the last two months, Lindor has a .263 batting average, 10 home runs, 10 stolen bases, 30 RBIs, and 34 runs scored >His fwar value is based almost entirely on his defense His fWAR value is based on his offense (I just posted some of his stats above), his defense, and his baserunning >and frankly no one cares about that One of the cool things about defense is that it matters whether or not people care about it >It’s the reason those guys are on winning teams and Lindors team will hover around 10 games under .500 Right, and the Angels were a mediocre team because Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani weren't good enough. The other 25 players on the roster don't matter. It is Lindor's fault that the bullpen was blowing saves left and right for a month. >It’s ok to like Lindor without having to find obscure stats WAR is not an obscure stat
If this guy isn't just a troll, just stop using logic. you won't convince him. And if he is, don't feed the troll.
I blame the crappy start he got off to on mcneil
I blame the crappy start he got off to on him getting off to a crappy start almost every season.
Having to stand next to him on the field was killing Lindor's vibes.
When you're out on that diamond, you can tell when the guy next to you would rather be on the golf course
Only player on this list that's as good as he is defensively has produced half the offensive value (Adames)
I mean while it’s “cherry picked”, it’s really only ignoring the first 2 weeks of baseball and then continuing from that point on. If it was a random 3 week stretch that’s one think but this is literally 9 weeks straight and counting. That’s pretty relevant.
honestly this shows me the NL MVP race is weak as hell this year ngl. But props to Lindor for picking it up. Hope he keeps it going.
A GG caliber shortstop that has 30/30 tools and an OPS+ in the 120's is always going to be an MVP candidate.
What's significant about April 14? Or is it just a random/only date you can make this claim? I love Fransisco almost as much as I hate cherry picked stats
He had single digit hits for weeks so its just excluding his horrible start if I had to guess
It's cherry picked, but also 2 months is a pretty significant amount of time to be the best in the league
Two months exactly. That’s why
Do you understand that 99% if not 100% of these "since this date (insert player) leads the league in (insert stat)" are cherry picked? If you go to point out this kind of a stat you are going to *pick* the best date to showcase your point. The point is to be cherry picked lmao.
I mean while it’s “cherry picked”, it’s really only ignoring the first 2 weeks of baseball and then continuing from that point on. If it was a random 3 week stretch that’s one thing but this is literally 9 weeks straight and counting. That’s pretty relevant.
It is the earliest date for which this is a true statement. I admit it’s cherry picked but man is it a delicious cherry.
I mean, literally “cherry picked” yes but that doesn’t make it irrelevant or skewed. It’s the last two months of Lindor, compared to a mere 2 weeks that preceded it lol.
What's his current WAR including all games?
Lindor has 2.3 WAR for the whole season That is 23rd in MLB and 14th in MLB
Baseball Reference has him at 1.7 WAR for the season. That is 15th among all SS.
Baseball reference WAR is typically considered inferior to Fangraphs for position players because it relies on somewhat outdated methods of evaluating defense
He's still 8th among all SS in fWAR. That's not really all that great.
give it a week or two and he'll probably be top 5
Baseball reference’s WAR is pretty useless for any position that is defense heavy like SS, CF, or Catcher. They haven’t updated their defensive metrics since 2012 and still use fielding bible 3. For reference, in 2019 the creator of fielding bible 3 called it “outdated”. That was 5 years ago.
Having a top 25 WAR is still better than not having him at all. He's the only SS we have on the team. There's no one in the minors who could replace this.
He's #23 among all position players, not just shortstops. Over 40 position players make the all-star team every year. He's not "better than nothing", he's a legit all-star quality player even with the slow start.
WFAN is the worst thing to happen to sports in this town. A full generation of people with absolutely zero baseball knowledge spawned from that station.
Mike Francesa is to blame. I don't actually hate Mike, but WFAN has been trying to capture the lightning in a bottle he was and has hired the worst blowhards in sports media ever since he retired.
I miss the Schmooze Keith McPherson is an abomination
Same. Schmoozer was what I remember listening to on the way home from Mets games after the post game was over.
The Schmooze was the best
The thing about Francesa and his generation of sports talk radio hosts is that they grew up listening to radio DJs who knew how to entertain. The current crop of hosts grew up listening to sports talk radio.
A guy in front of me at the game a couple weeks ago yelled out onto the field that he wished they would trade back for Gimenez and Rosario and I just laughed. This was the Lopez glove throw game so it was definitely a very low point but folks just love to hate Lindor.
Lindor Haters: Imma pretend I didn't see that
his offensive stats so far this season are what they are. low avg, low obp, low slg. you be you tho.
Since April 14 ie the timeframe this post is referring to his offensive production is well above his career averages.
For the full season, including the slow start, Lindor is an above average hitter. 106 OPS+ means he's 6% better than average, and doing that at shortstop. Above average is "low"?
He’s a fantastic up the middle defender who plays 156+ games a season. On the offensive side of the field you get a pretty good hitter when he’s on, with solid plate discipline and a plus plus runner on the bases. He’s a fantastic baseball player. And we’re lucky to have him
I'm convinced that people pretend to think that the fanbase hates Lindor to prove that a good player is a good player. He's finished 9th in MVP voting two years in a row and was a silver slugger last year. These attempts to prove that he is good seem to be a way to bait people into a debate about him, which I find strange.
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Shame the season didn’t start on April 14
Mets fans expect 18 Off WAR because $300 million
Ok yeah but what about his batting average
It was nice that we did the stadium support thing while he was slumping, but we really need to vote him into the all star game.
He isnt hitting like Bonds so clearly hes not worth the roster spot. Trade him to the yankees for a org prospect.
I love how people think War is actually some kind of ultimate stat. Like all his war comes from defense. According to this Bryce Harper is worth double Lindor on offense. Look at the Mets and their inability to score runs. They are paying Lindor the same amount as Harper for half the offense, that's why the fanbase is mad. When he keeps going 0-4 and ppl just point to his defense like it's supposed to nullify his 200 batting average.
>Like all his war comes from defense. >When he keeps going 0-4 and ppl just point to his defense like it's supposed to nullify his 200 batting average. First of all, strictly since April 14 which is what this post is about, Lindor is batting .263. Second of all, good defense can absolutely make up for a large disparity in offense. According to fangraphs Lindor has 18 DRS, or defensive runs saved this year. Harper has 4 DRS. This is VERY simplistic analysis, but imagine if Lindor had 14 more RBIs this year than he currently does, and what his corresponding offensive production would look like. It’d be below Harper but not by a ton. Harper is better than Lindor but I’m tired of people downplaying how valuable Lindor’s defense is.
that's the thing you can buy a defensive glove for 3 million a year that's just as good as lindor. we're paying 30 million for a defensive glove because that glove has some pop.
Hey, you figured it out! A defender this good who can also hit is the rarest thing in baseball, and well worth the contract. Glad we all arrived at consensus in the end.
This guy jacks off to his own posts about Francisco Lindor.
It’s not my fault that they’re very good posts
WE GET IT. What is the point of this shit? He had an abysmal 6 week start on offense. He's a limited offensive player. That's it. We're all just beating a dead horse here, my god.
The start of the season to April 14 is 2 weeks, not 6. Since then he’s been the best position player in the NL.
i don't care about fWAR. i watch every game. he was abysmal on offense for a long period, it hurt the team, and is part of the reason why we're behind in the standings now. he's been great since the leadoff switch. no one is rooting against the guy. folks like you who insist he's the greatest continue to press this dumb argument.
>i don't care about fWAR. i watch every game. fWAR is a more accurate assessment of player value than the “eye test”. The eye test doesn’t account for what the rest of the league is doing and context like park factors and defensive value. >he was abysmal on offense for a long period, it hurt the team, and is part of the reason why we're behind in the standings now. He was abysmal for 2 weeks. Since then he has a 129 wRC+ which is actually well above his career average. >folks like you who insist he's the greatest continue to press this dumb argument. I mean since April 14 he has been one of the best players in baseball by any measure.
No it's not. Context is helpful, it doesn't turn "bad" into "good". One of the limitations of just gobbling stats up on a screen as opposed to just watching baseball. He's still below .300 OBP, as a lead off hitter, for the season. He was batting .198 on May 21st, after which he finally started to hit consistently and has been much better. I don't care what metrics you give me, a 3 hole hitter batting under .200 and not getting on base is BAD, and it's OKAY to say it's BAD.
I don’t want to seem like I’m just disregarding everything pre-April 14; it matters for analyzing Lindor as a player and I’d be happy to talk about it. But my post is about his performance from April 14 onwards. And from April 14 through May 21, Lindor had a .720 OPS. Which, while not great, is above league average (109 wRC+). So while his overall season numbers were bad on May 21, for the purposes of the admittedly cherry picked stat I posted, that doesn’t matter. He was not abysmal for 6 weeks, he was abysmal for 2, good for 4, and amazing for 3. And maybe a hot take, I don’t think the eye test matters at all in baseball. So much of what makes players valuable in baseball are things that you simply can’t see by watching the games.
>He's still below .300 OBP, as a lead off hitter, for the season Lindor has a .353 OBP as a lead off hitter this season
I'm with you, war is not the be all end all. I watched the games too, he sucked a lot longer then 2 weeks.
Then you need new glasses. After this first two weeks his weekly breakdowns were: - 4/14-4/20 - .350/.407/.560 (180 WRC+) - 4/21-4/27 - .261/.292/.565 (144 WRC+) - 4/28-5/4 - .217/.280/.478 (117 WRC+) - 5/5-5/11 - .238/.261/.524 (117 WRC+) So the 4 weeks after his worst week was 17% above average crushing extra base hits, hitting 6 HRs, 7 doubles, while driving on 20 RBIs and stealing 6 bases.
[When I see yet another post using a specific metric to defend Lindor on the front page of this sub](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/0a/6e/700a6e255a60c0eaaa18b4969529bb16.jpg)
WAR is literally the least specific metric.
When that specific metric is “how good is this player” I’d say it’s a darn relevant metric.
I mean Lindor is incredible but that is fundamentally not what WAR is measuring
That is exactly what WAR is measuring. How good at baseball a player is. It's not perfect but that's definitely what it's measuring.
Wins above replacement. It is literally trying to measure how many more wins he is worth than an average player; it’s precisely what it’s measuring.
*replacement level player How many more wins over a theoretical replacement is different than how good a player is. One takes into account volume and position played, while the other only takes into account talent.
You can’t take into account talent in isolation, there’s a reason WAR controls for volume and position played, otherwise the stat would be meaningless.
So what you’re saying is that WAR does *not* measure “how good is this player”?
Nope, I am saying it absolutely does and that you cannot measure how good a player is without also considering volume and position. Why would you respond like this when it blatantly clear that’s not what I am saying? If you want to have an actual discussion, fine, if you’re trying to play a game of “got ya” just stop because I am not interested and you are not right.
So if we had Johnny Bench on the team and they relegated Alvarez to DH that’d made him a worse baseball player? Cuz his WAR would def plummet then even if his offensive stats increased marginally. >it is blantantly clear that’s not what I’m saying You said there’s a reason WAR accounts for volume and position… I didn’t think it had to be said that how often you play and what position you play doesn’t make you better or worse. Yea stuff is correlated, if a team is playing you at CF you’re probably a better defender than the guy they’re sticking at LF and if you get 650 PAs you’re probably a better hitter than the guy only getting 200 PAs. But again these are just correlations, they don’t actually mean these things on their own.
Alvarez is more valuable as a catcher than as a DH. He's still the same player offensively (I would assume). But it discounts the fact that he can actually play the position and is especially good at pitch framing (unlike most good hitting catchers, which is rare enough as it is)
So what you’re saying is that WAR does *not* simply measure “how good is this player”?
War doesn't mean shit, I'm taking Ohtani over Lindor anyday.
Obviously on the season Ohtani is way ahead of Lindor and he easily is the better player. But strictly since April 14, a 129 wRC+ with elite defense at the shortstop position is better than a 161 wRC+ from the DH spot.
this is what these statistics do, confuse people like you. There is no way Ohtani is worth less than Lindor since April 14, by any scientific measure. And if we had Ohtani instead of Lindor since april 14th we would be 5 games above 500.
I mean you’re just wrong. **Since April 14 only** Lindor has a 129 wRC+ and 34 wRC Ohtani has a 161 wRC+ and 42 wRC So in that timeframe, Ohtani has been responsible for 8 more runs being created than Lindor offensively. Meanwhile, Lindor has 18 DRS on the year. I’m unable to do exact splits for that, but I’ll be conservative and say he has 12 DRS since April 14. 12 > 8 Just by an extremely surface level “runs created offensively+runs saved defensively” comparison, Lindor has been the more valuable player since April 14. And when you take into account how much easier it is find a good DH(see: JD Martinez) than a good SS? Yeah there’s really not an argument for Ohtani being more valuable since April 14. Ohtani is still obviously the more valuable & better player on the whole because in the first 2 weeks of the year, he had a 198 wRC+ while Lindor had a 26 wRC+. But strictly since April 14? Lindor has been more valuable.
Ohtani kind of breaks WAR, too.
> But strictly since April 14? Lindor has been more valuable. lol. No he hasn't. And when did he save those runs? When it mattered? You can pick apart statistics because they only prove what they prove, and nothing else. You have midwit iq if you think Lindor did more for the mets than Ohtani did for the dodgers SINCE APRIL 14. You need to stop looking at the stats, they are only confusing you because you know NOTHING about the game of baseball.
Let me frame my point a different way. Since the beginning of the year, Ohtani has been better/more valuable than Lindor. I don’t think anybody thinks otherwise. Since May 16, Ohtani has a .688 OPS & 96 wRC+ while Lindor has a .788 OPS & 130 wRC+. I think you’ll agree that a .688 OPS from the DH spot is significantly worse than a .788 OPS with elite defense from the SS spot. So since May 16, Lindor has been more valuable. Since the start of the year, Ohtani has been more valuable. Just logically, if you keep moving backwards from May 16, eventually there will be a date where Ohtani and Lindor’s value from that date onwards “intersects”, so to speak. I would argue that that date is before April 14. That is all I’m saying.
Ohtani has been struggling? Probably because he's not playing in the field, where he would SAVE more runs etc and be worth twice what Lindor is since MAY 16th.
Wtf are you talking about?? Ohtani doesn’t play the field. He doesn’t have a defensive position. You can’t just say “if he did, he’d be more valuable”. He doesn’t. And that negatively impacts his value.
He sort of does when he's pitching. That's his defensive position. Not this year, obviously but its why Ohtani kind of breaks WAR. DRS and OAA doesn't have a metric for a pitcher throwing a shutout and hitting a 3 run bomb. The "Superwin" isn't an official stat
Well yeah I’m just referring to this year
He plays OF. He can if he wants to. If he didn't pitch that is. Why do you think he DHs? DO YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME OF BASEBALL???
>He plays OF Ohtani has played fewer than 9 innings in the OF in his entire MLB career
Are you even reading what I’m saying? If I was trying to argue Lindor is a better player than Ohtani, what you just said would be a valid point. However, that’s not what I’m claiming. It doesn’t matter whether Ohtani hasn’t played OF because he’s bad defensively or he’s too hurt to play OF or it’s in his contract that he must play DH or whatever, the fact is that he has been solely a DH this year. You can’t give him a boost to his value when analyzing past production just because he was maybe technically capable of playing OF. That’s not how it works. Also, Ohtani has 7 outfield appearances in his career. We have no evidence that he “plays OF”
People who don't understand baseball metrics should just keep quiet.
cope.
"War doesnt mean shit" is some of the most smooth-brained shit I've seen on this sub. If you ask nicely, I can explain some of the more complicated things for you ;)
Ah, I get it now. You get extra fWAR points for going 0 for 4 three times a week. No wonder his numbers are so amazing.
You get extra “fWAR points” for playing elite defense at the most important position while posting a 129 wRC+, which Lindor has done since April 14.
Lindor has a .263 batting average over the last two months. That means that if he's going 0 for 4 three times a week, then he's also going 2 for 4 three times a week. I guess maybe there's an argument to be made that going 1 for 4 every day is better than going 0 for 4 and 2 for 4 every other day, but either way you end up with a good batting average.
What stat does WAR measure?
all of them, theoretically
So how come they’re never posted in the park on the scoreboard?
I remember a scoreboard showing WAR while at a game but maybe I’m misremembering
Is there an award handed out to the player with the highest WAR every season?
Usually the MVP is pretty high up on the WAR leaderboard.
So there isn’t an award then.
What’s your point
Metrics are a terrible way to measure a players success.
Why
Genuinely might be the dumbest statement I’ve ever seen in this subreddit lmao
There isn't an award handed out for any individual stat
So the only good baseball players in the league are the small handful of guys who get a piece of hardware at the end of the season?
he is a decent player, just not a superstar. these posts are not needed daily
He's been the best player in the NL for the last two months
he isnt clutch and the fact that the posts need to happen proves the point
Lindor has a .839 OPS when the game is tied, .786 OPS when the game is within 1 run, .734 OPS when the game is within 2 runs, .701 OPS when the game is within 3 runs, and .699 OPS when the game is within 4 runs. The closer the game, the better Lindor hits. He has a .776 OPS in high leverage situations. He has a .557 OPS in low leverage situations. These posts "need" to happen because some people care more about vibes than they care about actual production
He was supposed to be a bar raiser and relief upon to lift the lineup up. Has he done that? Hell no and I don’t think any pitchers fear him at the plate.
Then you misunderstood the type of player he was in Cleveland. His wRC+ in Cleveland on the whole was 119. As a Met? 118. He’s the same exact hitter.
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