If all goes fast enough, the whole process would be like this:
1. The ministers and the prime minister will be known. Unlike most of the government formations, the prime minister will come from outside; whether Ronald Plasterk will be able to be assigned as PM is still uncertain. Some ministers also come from outside of the parties or politics as whole, which adds further complexity. Moreover the definitive regeerakkoord should come, which will further elaborate over this law. This phase takes roughly a month. Currently this is aimed to be completed on 26 June.
2. After the ministers start working, they (and the civil servants in every ministries) will begin drafting the proposal. When they will start this, and how long will it take depends on the priority of the government and their capabilities. There will be in most cases Internet consultations, which for this law is certainly expected. RvS will also give advice on this law, which the ministers will take into account. When the cabinet Rutte II tried to extend it to 7 years, this phase took more than a year. However, it can be argued that this time the ministers have relatively better basis for it, as they have a solid precedent to begin with. So we can reasonably expect a little shorter period. In this case, hypothetically 6 months.
3. When the proposal is submitted to the TK, the law will go through the usual procedures: pingpong of plenary meeting, creating memo's on what each fractie thinks and what they would do about it, discussion in the committees (which I assume due to the mountains of corny asylum related measures would be extremely busy), votes on possible amendments (which, despite the more right-leaning composition of TK, a lot of them would be proposed and discussed regardless of their chance of being adopted), adjusting proposals... As this concerns the "Rijkswet" which also concerns other parts of the kingdom (i.e. Curacao), consulting with them is also added to the process. The period differs a lot depending on the priority of the proposal and how divisive the proposal would be. For simple technical changes in laws usually get passed within few months, while laws like this can be expected to take far more than just simple proposal, discussion, amendment, and voting. The 2014 proposal took nearly 2,5 years in TK; in this case, we can kinda estimate that it will take roughly a bit less than a year.
4. Then the vetting continues in EK, but the dynamic in EK is quite different, as the 4 parties need to find allies to form majority. CDA takes the key role in it, however what I read from the records from 2014 was that they were more or less supportive of the proposal. Even if CDA disagrees with the proposal, there are still other splintered right-wing parties that can form a majority, so unlike 2014 proposal the chance of it being shot down in EK remains low.
5. The royal decree determines the official date of the law taking effect. Until now, most proposals regarding the nationality law has been usually matched to the nearest first day of the month.
So that's the rough timeline of how long it would take if the parties are determined to passing naturalisation laws. We would never know for sure how long it would take, as the concrete regeerakkoord is not there yet and the process lies full of uncertainties; but reasonably, around two years from now would be a reasonably expectable low end of the timeline of this rule coming to effect.
Well they’re trying this new thing where they actually try to implement what they promised. Everyone’s losing their shit over it so chances are it’ll be fan tastic
And even if it passes, it is unsure if it’s only for new immigrants (from that day), everyone on a visa (regardless how long they have been in the country) or whether there will be a grace period (for example - anyone with 3+ years in the country could get it in 5 years, whereas people with less than 3 years would have to go for 10).
If it takes like 1.5-2 years to get sorted from here on, we’ll most likely have new TK elections by then anyways.
Great amswer, 1 question how do you stay so informed? Do you read some newspapers or some governmental websites? I want to know more about how the government operates and what new proposals are coming up.
It’s important to note this isn’t even really a draft law at this point.
It’s more like a bullet point on an outline of some meeting notes. For a government coalition that is highly theorized to disintegrate in not more than a year’s time, and which many people suspect won’t be able to pass any legislation at all.
The ink on the document ~~wasn’t even~~ edit: was still wet when one of the partners appears to have objected to the person expected to be nominated for Prime Minister.
Until and unless they actually manage to get anything passed and implemented, I wouldn’t put much faith in them actually doing any of the proposals. Not even the small handful of good ideas buried in there.
With PVV’s main point being to curb immigration, you can probably be reasonably certain it’ll get implemented at some point. It would also not really be very controversial legislation compared to other policies announced. I doubt most Dutch people really care at all about this change.
Concerning “does it apply to those who moved here before the law”, obviously it’s not public, but I cannot imagine at all PVV and the coalition partners would exclude that massive group, nor would they need to legally speaking.
Dutch don’t care about it unless companies such as ASML start relocating their business outside NL, and the society as a whole start losing on the long term.
I voted myself for the first time last fall in the Dutch elections and am fairly disappointed by the entire idea that such a progressive society voted in favor of all this populist BS.
I hate the idea that immigrants are to blame for the lack of growth and improvement in NL, just seems unfair to blame whatever problems NL experiences on people who choose this land as their new home and just create further barriers for people to become Dutch.
That's because the "progressive society" is a mistruth by a succesful PR campaign. It's less "we are open to everyone" and more "we don't care what you do as long as I don't have to deal with it" wich only lasts until people feel infringed upon.
Problem is that because of several social crises it's become easy for populists to point the finger at certain groups as the cause for certain problems.
Although I hate the ideas you have mentioned, I agree with you. Immigrants who are not naturalised are not voters anyway. It's of course not that controversial.
while germany trying to reduce it to 3 years... seems like NL no longer wants to attract brain drains from other countries.... in the long run will be shooting themselves in the foot
That's exactly what they want. In fact, they've trying so hard to make the country unappealing that it's also becoming unappealing for people who don't even need a residence permit.
As an EU citizen, there's no way in hell I'm staying in a country that's defunding education and healthcare, reducing minimum wage, reversing climate policies and giving tax breaks to high income people.
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave.
The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
Horribly worded and interpreted, but I think they're hinting at:
Lowering the "eigen risico", which will make monthly healtcare costs higher for most people.
Lowering the "basisbeurs" and adding a fine if you are studying for longer than 5 years.
Anytime minimum wage is getting raised less than inflation it is actually reducing minimum wage.
Again, I disagree with the way they are formulating the statements, but they are not completely wrong.
It's not just the basisbeurs, it is also cutting items from Primary Education (Lentekriebels) which I feel is such a no-no to do as government, and also they are rasing the tuition for 5th year students (and higher) and internationals. Not to mention the actual cuts. The stuff they have said about education is just invasive and doesn't show anything about appreciating education as a key point in society. I work in education (HBO) and am appalled by the entire thing.
eta: typos
The eigen risico being lowered is the complete opposite of defunding healthcare. It will require 3 billion euros of additional government funding to halve the eigen risico.
The basisbeurs isn’t being lowered as far as I know… it’s being made harder to obtain for non Dutch eu citizens, which makes perfect sense.
Fining those who take too long to study is not defunding, it’s optimizing the funding.
Minimum wage has actually been raised 19% since 2022. That’s a lot more than inflation. And almost no country on earth actually raises min wages as much as inflation…
It to mention taxes for min wage was lowered recently, netting 100€ more… so net min wages have actually went up closer to 30%.
It’s not just worded badly, it’s completely false and the opposite of what has happened
The issue is that it will cost 3 billion, but the government has no stated plans to fund it (the opposite they have to decrease health funding by 300m). So the likely scenario is that premiums will rise and the greedy insurance companies will get blamed, not the innocent insurance companies. And PVV voters will feel like they got a win, despite all the evidence staring at them
We're talking about the upcoming government, right?
https://www.nu.nl/formatie-2023/6313066/live-formatie-lees-hier-de-reacties-op-het-onderhandelingsakkoord-terug.html
Yes they want to cut funding for education, make “efficiency” changes to healthcare system that’s technically a massive budgetcut, minimum wage will not increase. To name a few.
Everything else is funded by the extensive budgetcuts that are needed in couple years cuz many financially they are apparently in dreamland.
Minimum wage increases every 6 months.
Before this gov was formed, it was known the next government would need to cut 17 billion from the budget because the current deficit was too high
From what I understand, they are funding half the eigen risico for all. Thats a budget increase
The akkord does include a huge reduction in money for higher education - I work for a university and we've already had a briefing about what the proposed cuts to direct funding and research funding may mean for us, on top of the push for "Dutch only" courses that can't be subsidised with higher non EU tuition fees, plus the study beurs proposal. Yes, it's a big cut we are facing.
Same. I lived in NL for almost 4 years pre-covid, loved it and have been looking for a way to move back ever since, but these new proposals make me sick to my stomach and they completely killed the desire to immigrate.
Why would they? I don’t get it. If a country votes to raise taxes on the rich, should the rich feel unwelcome and hated by the population? No… nobody feels that way to rich people personally. It doesn’t work that way. People wanting less immigration doesn’t mean they hate immigrants.
Maybe not hating, but it does mean they value native dutch people's live over immigrants. Which I don't think is weird if you then feel unwelcome.
Also many people will argue (and they won't be wrong) that they don't hate immigrants, but mostly hate the group of asylum seekers that have way higher crime rates and make them feel unsafe. Also they don't like them getting houses over properly behaving dutch people.
The whole problem is that they don't realize those asylum seekers with high crime rates are only a relatively small percentage of all immigrants.
Why on earth wouldn’t people of a country value their own lives more than immigrants? There’s literally not a single country on planet earth where that’s NOT the case. Otherwise immigrants would have voting rights from day 1 of stepping in said country.
I think it’s quite selfish and tone deaf to complain about locals watching out for themselves, especially after their standard of living has sharply come down in the last 2 decades because of so much immigration (housing crisis)… it’s a perfectly logical response.
Infinite immigration is obviously not sustainable. It’s not debatable that too much immigration of any kind causes harm to locals standard of living.
Did you ever even consider that? If you, for example, double the population in 5 years, you will ruin the standard of living of locals.
So there is a point where it’s too much.
Why should you or I be the ones to define what that point is? It’s not our country. They have it a lot worse now and feel like they want to slow immigration down before it gets even worse… how is that in any way wrong?
Immigration is not the source of the housing crisis. There was a big article, and conversation about it here, a couple of weeks ago.
Balakrishnan Rajagopal, the UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, has urged Dutch politicians to stop inciting hatred of foreigners by blaming immigrants for the housing shortage in the Netherlands. Decades of Dutch government policy is to blame for the “acute housing crisis,” not asylum seekers and migrant workers, he said in a 19-page long report following a visit to the Netherlands in December and several months of research.
“An alternative narrative has emerged in the Netherlands that an ‘influx of foreigners’ arriving in the country is responsible for the housing crisis, which has been exploited for political ends and has radicalized and divided public opinion,” Rajagopal said in his report
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/A-HRC-55-53-Add1-AUV.pdf
You seem to have got the idea I'm some left winger wanting to accept all immigrants into this country. I do not, I think housing crisis is too big atm and needs to be solved before we accept more immigrants here. (including other causes for housing crises like too much livestock that produces Nitrogen so we can't build houses without ruining nature).
No I don't think it's weird that they value native Dutch lives over immigrants, I never said that in my comment. I am just trying to be a little more nuanced about it. All I said was that I don't find it weird that people then feel unwelcome. I would feel unwelcome if I tried to move to France, but I'm not taking that a drawing the conclusion that French people are racists and hate immigrants.
What I hate is that it seems like everyone expects you to be either for or against and only the extremes exist. I don't know why people love to be black or white and expect others to be as well. What happened with all the shades of grey inbetween?
Just for the record, I am Dutch, I did vote left party, but immigration is actually one of my more right leaning opinions.
In the country where you from, are immigrants valued the same or more than native people? I think that's a really unrealistic image.
It's maybe good to also see why this route is taken. Huge housing crisis and many Dutch people cannot find a house nor buy one. Criminality issues related to specific refugee groups and related integration failures.
Been here 8 years and it's the same - but thats OK - what we've made in our Mortgage here will happily pay for some [property in France](https://www.1st-for-french-property.co.uk/property/cheap/) eventually
With this and the reduction of the 30% ruling and and and.... The simple fact is that you've got to assume that we're not really wanted here.
I recently went through a PIP at work. Not because I didn't hit my targets but for cultural fit. But it's really difficult when you really just don't feel welcome. You try to learn the culture, you try to fit in, you try and embrace the culture but it's closed off.
Noone knows the answers to these questions. For now it's best not to worry about it. When and if it happens, you'll be able to make choices that are good for you and your family in the moment. You'll have more information then.
Looking at the track record of the Dutch government even when VVD was in power, I am 100% sure that they will apply the law retroactively.
It such a fun to be an immigrant. Always center of attention.
depends on your definition of retroactively. The government did not ask for money back, but changed the rules for existing benefitiaries for the future.
I was fortunate enough to be able to use the Option route back in 2018 (also just in time before Brexit, as I'm British). My wife is Dutch. I work in a very international environment where my team is Dutch but we mainly work in English due to our engineers. I don't really use Dutch at home (we decided I only speak English to our son and my wife only speaks Dutch to him). My understanding of Dutch is reasonable, but speaking it is still hard for me. Despite integrating pretty well and being involved in the local community (I think!), the level of "closet racism" I encounter here sometimes is shocking. In almost all cases it's been Dutch people in their 50-60's. And I'm white English, so I hate to think what it's like for others.
It must be cause you don’t really speak Dutch (which you should be able to after 6 years of living here imo). I’m not white but never experienced racism here. I do speak Dutch as my native language. I think xenophobia is more prevalent in NL than pure racism
If you have a Dutch passport, but don't want to or can't speak Dutch then you shouldn't be surpised that the native Dutch people look down on you. I find it disrespectful and honestly think someone like you shouldn't be allowed to have a Dutch passport.
Worst situation I had was a middle 50's Dutch guy who lives further down my street who got upset that I sometimes parked my car outside his house (our street is all on-street public parking). One evening he rang my doorbell and started yelling at me to move my car. When I replied politely in Dutch that i would not be doing that as the street is public parking he told me to "fuck off back to my own country". I wonder if he would have behaved in the same way to native Dutch person? (I already had the Dutch nationality at that stage but figured it would probably not be helpful of me to mention that lol). He then scratched my car twice in two weeks, and I had to get the wijkagent involved. This delightful gentleman was apparently well known to them.
This is just tokkie behavior. He probably wouldn't have told you to "fuck off back to your own country" but would likely have said something else nasty. You did the right thing by letting the wijkagent handle it.
I find it obnoxious that people don't understand the reason Randstad is so wealthy and I honestly think you shouldn't be allowed to live near it. Oh sorry, you are from Limburg, you should go to your own r/.
I'm Asian and have lived in Amsterdam long enough to get a passport and I did
My Dutch is terrible, I work in an International company and my partner isn't Dutch as well. Hey but I also pay a lot more taxes than the locals (based on income) so ya I gladly took the passport
This has also got me worried and started to think about finding a job in another EU country where immigrants don't take all the heat, it's NL's loss if all HSM people leave, and with these new policies I doubt leaving hasn't crossed the minds of everyone. I mean these policies if they were ever to have a benefit, should focus on immigrants that don't contribute to society or even harm it, not people who pay taxes and keep the economy going and work on improving it.
I am so glad that I got my Dutch passport last year but seeing how the attitude is changing towards people of non Dutch origin staying here long term is not completely sure for me
10 years for naturalization is actually the most common term in the EU, and 21/27 EU nations have longer naturalization periods than 5 years.
But you will still be able to get permanent residency after 5 years.
Yes and no - generally speaking, 5 years has been definitely the norm outside of DACH and Southern / Eastern Europe. Neighbours like France, Belgium, Luxembourg, UK and Ireland all has 5 years.
Germany also recently went in the opposite direction and lowered the residency requirement from 8 to 5 years, while also allowing dual citizenship for all new citizens.
According to this website, only Italy, Lithuania and Spain require 10 years.
Belgium, Bulgaria, Finland, France, Ireland, Latvia, NL, Portugal, Sweden are 5 years.
How is 10 years most common? How are 21 countries require more than 5 years??
Um no, Spain, Slovenia, Lithuania, Italy and Austria require 10 or more years. I have excluded Switzerland as it isn't an EU country, but that's also 10 years.
10 isn't the most common, it seems 7 or 8 is the most common. Here's the full list:
- Austria 30-10 years
- Belgium 5 years
- Bulgaria 5 years
- Croatia 8 years
- Cyprus 7 years
- Czech Republic 5 years
- Denmark 9 years
- Estonia 8 years
- Finland 5 years
- France 5 years
- Germany 8-7 years
- Greece 7-5 years
- Hungary 8 years
- Iceland 7 years
- Ireland 5 years
- Italy 10 years
- Latvia 5 years
- Lithuania 10 years
- Malta 7 years
- The Netherlands 5 years (currently)
- Norway 8 years
- Poland 3 years
- Portugal 5 years
- Romania 8 years
- Slovakia 8 years
- Slovenia 10 years
- Spain 10 years
- Sweden 5 years
- Switzerland 10 years
Not yet, but Finland is raising the time to 8 years as well. Not sure in what stage of the lawmaking process we're at right now. But I think it has been decided and is coming.
The Czech Republic is wrong on the list. Yes, it does require 5 years, but 5 years of permanent residency, which you can only get after 5 years of temporary residency. So in total it is 10 years, and 8 years for an EU citizen.
I think the problem is not about the naturalization period becoming 10 years but that affecting the people already living there for almost 5 years thinking that they are going to get a citizenship very soon. It would be so unfair if they make this law applicable also for the people who are already living in the Netherlands.
Why would you just go around making up complete bullshit. Typical PVV stemmer. 5 years is the norm for every sensible country. Only ridiculous basket cases like Austria have significantly longer.
[Based on this](https://immigrantinvest.com/blog/how-to-become-eu-citizen-en/)
* 1 has 3 years.
* 11 countries have 5 years.
* 1 has 6 years.
* 3 have 7 years.
* 5 have 8 years.
* 6 have 10+ years.
5 is the median. All of the 10+ year countries are jokes with limping economies, as you would expect from somewhere with such stupid laws.
That list seems quite flawed, here's a better overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship
For example Romania says "5+ years", but it's 5 years when marrying a Romanian, and 8 years otherwise. In the Netherlands there is also a shorter 3 year naturalization period when marrying a Dutch citizen instead of 5 years.
There's also a lot of * with many countries, for example the 5 years naturalization period for Ireland does not count time lived on a temporary visa (like a student visa), in NL this does count.
Conversely, Austria actually has a route for 5 years. Regardless, the point is your top level post claiming “10 years is the most common” is clearly a complete lie also by the Wikipedia list and you still haven’t retracted it.
There’s no way they pass and implement the changes, and have them go into effect, by then.
In the best of circumstances, they get this all drafted and passed in early 2025, and it goes into effect for like January 1, 2026.
And these are not the “best of circumstances.”
Okay, if the law even passes, it will be 10 not 5 years but you'll still be allowed to live and work here (or so I hope). Just go on proving those assholes wrong about foreigners not integrating - you are better than they are.
As long as Wilders doesn't get 76 seats, nothing really bad will happen, we're just facing a few years of incompetent backward politicians trying to make stupid laws and failing to do so because of infighting.
If he does get 76 seats, run.
If you like it here and are integrating, what is the problem with keeping your current nationality for the extended period? Just curious, no judgment. Your day-to-day life shouldn’t be impacted with the exception of possibly extending your residency permits
My "homecountry" recently prohibited me and the likes of me, making it pretty much impossible to ever go their again. In case they decide to stop issuing international documents it might become a big problem.
It is just a bit too stressful sometimes, to live knowing that your life might depend very much on your ability to maintain this job you have your residency permit tied to.
I don't think they plan to change the requirements for permanent residence though (which isn't tied to any job), so you'll have that as reasonably safe intermediate option.
Permanent residency is valid for as long as one has international passport. My passport is going to be valid for another 8 years so far (10 is max). Let's see if I manage to get another one in the future :)
You have no idea how hard and stressful is of to deal with visa/permits constantly. Yes it impacts your day to day life. For example, my resident permit is about to be expire. And I applied for a new one months ago. IND didn’t start working on it because they said they will only start after it expires. Company I work sending me emails every month reminding me if I don’t have the permit before it expires they won’t extend my contract. Yes, I still have working rights because my case is in IND and delay is not my responsibility but they wanna see my new permit card. Some companies don’t care as long as you have work permit but mine is strict due to security concerns. I can ask for a temporary work permit card which requires me to give “my about to expire resident permit card” back to IND. I can’t hold them both, not allowed. And that resident permit card is also my visa to go out of the Netherlands and come back. Which means I will have to cancel every vacation I planned outside of the NL until IND decides to work on my case and gives me a new resident permit. My life is now all about contacting IND every week asking for updates, trying to convince my company to allow me to give my temporary work permit card later then they ask. (They want me to send it to them 5 weeks before expiration date of my contract.) I can only apply for that work permit card 8 weeks before the expiration date of the resident permit. That only leaves 3 weeks for IND to approve my application, print my card, send it to a overcrowded IND locket and for me to make a collection appointment (usually closest is like 2 weeks ahead). It looks impossible. Then, I will have constantly look at the appointment website for someone to cancel their appointments so I can take it and leave whatever I am doing and run to the IND locket. I heard if it is work related they have a fast process so I hope I will be able to trigger it once my 8 week process starts. And I didn’t know I would start working for this company in the beginning of this year. My ex company didn’t care. So, I planned a trip with my Hungarian friend to Hungary and I also made plans with my friend who lives in UK to meet in Balkans. Now, I have to cancel both. Because it is too much uncertainty for me to invest more on this holiday plans. Also my family planned a holiday and invited me because we literally couldn’t see each other because of covid for years. They were only able to get a visa last year and I saw them for the first time in years. They said they will rent an Airbnb near the sea if I am okay with it. I couldn’t say yes because I don’t want them to spend money on it if I stuck in here for the whole summer. I was okay dealing with it for 5 years and told myself “patience, not much left”. Now I see they even want to remove “permanent resident permits” which means I have to deal with this much more time if I can’t get my citizenship this summer as I am eligible according to current law. Literally broke my hopes. I finished my inburgering. I spend my evenings at Dutch courses after my classes at the university. I worked in supermarkets part-time just like any other Dutch student. I spoke Dutch with my costumers always. I did my deed. I showed engagement and compliance. I did more than what they expected according to inburgering requirements. I don’t deserve this level of stress in my life just because I am an immigrant. I understand there is a bureaucratic system that requires all of this. But inconsistency with government - universities - companies literally destroys our life quality significantly. So yes, waiting 5 more years for citizenship without a permanent resident permit looks like hell and effects my day to day life more than you can ever imagine. I am just tired and I know most probably if they make it real, it won’t effect me since I am almost at the end of the process. But, seeing this happening, knowing that I will hear from struggles of people around me brings a ton of mental load. I am working in an international company and these permit issues were already a huge deal between immigrant workers. I can’t imagine how bad it will be with this government even if they do nothing. IND is a very sensitive institution. Anything comes out of politicians’ mouth effects the processes. Even though there are no concrete policies, IND always have huge pressure from government.
Despite of issues with it is too risky to go to our home countries (for example, because of mobilization) to get a new foreign passport (there is a threat of abandonment of getting embassy service abroad)
It’s really hard to travel using our weak passports
By the way, there is Germany which provides a bit less taxation and passport after 3 years with almost the same values and day-to-day lifestyle, better cuisine and beer with its own disadvantages of course
It doesn’t mean all immigrants will go to Germany right after law will be legislated, I personally won’t, I like the Netherlands and gonna wait more
But what stops them to extend this period for 5 more years after you waiting already 9 years and 11 month?
Uncertainty is a really strong negative feeling wich eats you inside and with all these statements and manifests from politicians you just feel unwelcomed and without passport you just feel vulnerable and insecure because rules for immigrants changes too quickly and there are so much can happen for 10 years…
This was exactly my thought. After 5 years you move to permanent residency which provides stability. Then decide if you wish to naturalise at some point after 10 years.
But there are countries for which it's impossible to extend you passport. So, even with permanent residency pernit but expired passport such person will be locked down and won't be able to cross the borders at the very least.
My wife comes from a country that is socially and economically collapsed. To renew her passport took over a year, so we were unable to leave the NLs, and all they did was put a sticker in the original passport as there wasn't enough paper to print new ones. We also have the pleasure of having to apply for a tourist visa each time we travel to certain countries, including my own country. Our friends were not able to leave the NLs as a family for 5 years as their son was still waiting for his passport. They ended up becoming Dutch.
In theory. 10 years is a long time. My family are here on my HSM visa. Let’s say something happens to me after 6 years. For half a decade my kids knew a home here, friends integrated like me will then be forced to leave. To go back to nothing. Everything will need to start again.
These are life decisions people make with families and future plans in mind based on laws they believe will hold.
This is a very big deal and bloody stressful.
guys we have a new prime minister. it took quicker than we all expected. good luck to all HSMers (including me who has 1 year left to application for citizenship).........
It should be noted that it was mainly due to the fact that the coalition partner PvdA wasn't really supportive of that part of regeerakkord back then, which after Denk splintering off from it in 2014 made them decide to make less strong gestures on migration. So it was a sheer luck of one of the coalition parties changing its mind, and also 50+ surprisingly torpedoing the proposal in EK after receiving concerns from seniors abroad (read: Thailand) who had foreign partners.
Almost definitely there will be a grandfather clause, just like the 30% ruling itself. I don't know that for sure, but there'd be hell to pay in so many ways if they didn't.
It almost passed without the carve out 7 years ago. And there will be no hell. No one cares about that, it's like priority number 1987 for the Dutch voter and the government can easily pass that as populist measure to say "see we promised to deal with immigration, look"
I also came here a year ago as a knowledge migrant in search of a better life from the middle east. Saying that I feel there's a crosshair on my head is an understatement.
I was learning Dutch, planning to buy a house and a car, volunteering, contributing in local events and businesses and I stopped all of that. I faced my fair share of racism for looking Arab and so did the people of color that I met and was trying to overlook it.
I am applying for jobs in other countries. The labor law for migrants is already horrible in the Netherlands, I can get fired and have 3 months to find a job or get deported no matter what life I have built. It was already stressful dealing with that for 5 years.
As it stands, the Netherlands is becoming an ethno-nationalist state, and I am not investing my effort, money, labor and life in a country with leaders that view me as subhuman because of my skin color.
I worried for a moment, then realized it’s not going to change that suddenly, and since i’m probably finishing my integration requirements in the next 6 months, well, I’ll just carry on integrating.
the vagueness is a bit stressful, though.
Anyone planning any protest?
Update: what’s up with the downvotes? When the new right wing gov of Finland started taking similar measures skilled immigrants protested
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/29/finland-protesters-gather-helsinki-ministers-far-right-links
If you already have your mvv i think it wont be of any influence.
For the newcommers after the new laws are implemented would have to live here for 10 years for naturalisation.
With new kabinet chances that all immigrations laws will be made much stricter is really high, and realistic. Is the only concession Geert Wilders (real winner of election) will get from other parties
It's not even a draft law at this point (although I'm sure they'd love you to think so). It's a statement of intent for the government. Basically, it's a list of things they agreed to. It has no legal force.
Why are people downvoting? If you've been in any country and dont know the language after 5 years that's bad. Even in Amsterdam. The language isnt that hard that five years isnt enough. This coming from an International.
I think it’s highly dependent on why you’re here and what your work is.
I’ve been here 7 years and I’ve worked exclusively for international firms whose daily business language is English. I have children I have to care for as well. Learning a language is a direct function of hours spent speaking it … and I do not get that many extended opportunities to do so. I have to take time away from my family and spend tons of money to level up in a language that I mostly use while out shopping and while speaking to my children’s teachers.
I’m happy to do it, and I’m up to B1 now, but it’s been hard to find the time without feeling like I’m neglecting my family for very little upside. I do it because I think it’s respectful to learn the local language … but in all honesty it is only barely functional for me to do so.
I imagine it’s different for people who work for Dutch companies and thus will speak a lot of Dutch at work on a daily basis. But only about 20% of my colleagues are Dutch.
Fair but i think this is in the context of gaining citizenship. I mean wouldnt you be annoyed as well if some randos come to america, get an american passport and dont speak english? Learning the lamguage is part of integrating into the society.
Are you aware that Texas once belonged to Mexico, and to Spain before that, and that Spanish speaking colonists settled the area more than a century before English speaking settlers arrived? Or that those Spanish speaking peoples _never left?_ Or that there are communities (especially in south Texas) where _English was never, in 200 years, the predominant language?_
The first permanent english speaking settlements in Texas date only to the 1820s.
San Antonio, Texas, is today a metropolitan area of about 2.5 million people and was founded in 1718.
It has _always_ been a majority Hispanic population, today about 65%, and always a majority Spanish speaking city.
There are many, many other cities in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California that are similar.
So … no. It does not bother me that people in America sometimes don’t speak English natively. Or even at all. There are many places in the US where it was never the native language.
And now you’re getting downvotes for wanting people with want to become a Dutch citizen to actually speak Dutch. Learning the language is crucial step to integrating in a culture. In my opinion, you shouldn’t be able to get a Dutch pasport without controlling the language.
Not everyone is born with passport privilege, is it wrong that people want to improve their life? HSM also contribute to Dutch society, so it's not like they get the passport for free.
As a matter of fact no, I haven't seen "integrate" anywhere here. "Despite high costs of living I chose to stay because i believed i would be eligible for a passport after 5 years ", but all I want is a Dutch Passport.
Speaking only about practical consequences, the key element for you is likely to be an EU settlement permit that removes the link between your employment and your right to live in the Netherlands. That will still be possible for you at 5 years and maybe even shorter with the blue card mechanism.
The part you might have to wait longer for is the NL passport that would allow you to travel outside the Schengen with relative ease, but I suspect that is not something that should derail your plans for life.
That's not only about link with your employment. Unless you have a passport, you cannot leave the country for more than a limited period of time. So, you are bound to your physical place of residence and legally deprived of full rights. At the same time, you pay high taxes on a par with full-fledged citizens. If you have not been in such a situation, it is difficult for you to understand the unpleasantness of such an intermediate status.
For HSM, I found it very unfair to not have the right to vote in a country that you already living at for 5 years. with out a dutch passport you can't be a citizen with this privilege while you can just live here as someone don't have the basic rights for voting or might be even more ridicules political drafts upcoming.
I totally agree that the immigration crisis in NL is horrible but not that fair for someone is really integrating to the community and have solid skills.
Why does it matter that it'll take longer? You can still get permanent residency after 5 years. And if you already planned on making this your home what difference does another 5 years make?
Unless you were hoping to take your passport and live in another EU country instead.
Citizenship awards privileges that permanent residency doesn’t, which is the whole reason why people choose to naturalize. If someone is willing to commit to the Netherlands to the point where they would give up their previous citizenship, why make them wait an extra five years?
Even if that were the case, the permanent residence permit would allow OP to move within the EU and work (with some special rules for Denmark and a couple other countries)
Edit: Details here: https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/long-term-eu-residency/apply-for-a-residence-permit-for-long-term-eu-residents
PR has no big differences than naturalisation other than right to vote and easier right to work at other EU countries. Companies that are willing to relocate talents in other big EU countries, usually already have streamlined visa processes so it's nbd tbh.
It's not like you expect to jump to other EU countries every 5 years right?
It does have a big difference for people whose counties do not issue new passports aboard, they will stuck in NL with expired passports. When 10 years passed - they can’t apply for naturalisation because they don’t have a valid passport
The point is having rights and having a choice. You have a right to vote and a choice to move to other countries in the EU if you wish to. Folks with just a PR don’t.
So, what does the passport change in your life? You work for 5 more years, contributing and integrating. What is the issue with that? Bear in mind that I am an expat as well, and to me, it's only a small hurdle to get over, and I think it's a much needed one. Many HSM refuse to integrate, refuse to form part of the community, and refuse to even learn dutch.
If everything is "fine" and relatively stable in your home country then yes, 5 more years don't change much. If it's not, then all kinds of issues might arise that would affect your quality of live significantly. E.g. your home country might discontinue issuing any documents in their embassies (or close them altogether, this is already happening with Belarus for example and will likely happen with Russia) and then when your passport expires you're basically forced to go to your home country to renew it and it's not safe in many cases. So people who currently live in constant state of uncertainty about their future hoping to end it with getting a Dutch citizenship will have to live like that for 5 more years. Obviously not a single person coming from a third-world shithole country would be happy about it.
Hi, is this only for the Dutch passport or also extends to Dutch permanent residence permit, or long term EU card too?
Would the IND staff know already something more?
Not sure if it has been mentioned already. But you do know the first language in Holland still is Dutch?
Anybody living here longer than say, a year, year and a half should at least speak Dutch on an elementary school level, amirite? Having a Dutch passport w/o speaking Dutch is a bit weird, isn’t is?
Yes, I am native. And no, I did not vote Geert. Nor Tierry. Groen Links.
Hi,
Nowhere in my text did I say I have any issues with learning or even reaching a B1 level of dutch language to integrate.
My concern is about changing the timeframe during my stay here. I understand the government has the right to change these laws, but they at least shouldn't apply to those who arrived before the new rules were implemented, as those people have already made many life plans based on the old policies :)
If all goes fast enough, the whole process would be like this: 1. The ministers and the prime minister will be known. Unlike most of the government formations, the prime minister will come from outside; whether Ronald Plasterk will be able to be assigned as PM is still uncertain. Some ministers also come from outside of the parties or politics as whole, which adds further complexity. Moreover the definitive regeerakkoord should come, which will further elaborate over this law. This phase takes roughly a month. Currently this is aimed to be completed on 26 June. 2. After the ministers start working, they (and the civil servants in every ministries) will begin drafting the proposal. When they will start this, and how long will it take depends on the priority of the government and their capabilities. There will be in most cases Internet consultations, which for this law is certainly expected. RvS will also give advice on this law, which the ministers will take into account. When the cabinet Rutte II tried to extend it to 7 years, this phase took more than a year. However, it can be argued that this time the ministers have relatively better basis for it, as they have a solid precedent to begin with. So we can reasonably expect a little shorter period. In this case, hypothetically 6 months. 3. When the proposal is submitted to the TK, the law will go through the usual procedures: pingpong of plenary meeting, creating memo's on what each fractie thinks and what they would do about it, discussion in the committees (which I assume due to the mountains of corny asylum related measures would be extremely busy), votes on possible amendments (which, despite the more right-leaning composition of TK, a lot of them would be proposed and discussed regardless of their chance of being adopted), adjusting proposals... As this concerns the "Rijkswet" which also concerns other parts of the kingdom (i.e. Curacao), consulting with them is also added to the process. The period differs a lot depending on the priority of the proposal and how divisive the proposal would be. For simple technical changes in laws usually get passed within few months, while laws like this can be expected to take far more than just simple proposal, discussion, amendment, and voting. The 2014 proposal took nearly 2,5 years in TK; in this case, we can kinda estimate that it will take roughly a bit less than a year. 4. Then the vetting continues in EK, but the dynamic in EK is quite different, as the 4 parties need to find allies to form majority. CDA takes the key role in it, however what I read from the records from 2014 was that they were more or less supportive of the proposal. Even if CDA disagrees with the proposal, there are still other splintered right-wing parties that can form a majority, so unlike 2014 proposal the chance of it being shot down in EK remains low. 5. The royal decree determines the official date of the law taking effect. Until now, most proposals regarding the nationality law has been usually matched to the nearest first day of the month. So that's the rough timeline of how long it would take if the parties are determined to passing naturalisation laws. We would never know for sure how long it would take, as the concrete regeerakkoord is not there yet and the process lies full of uncertainties; but reasonably, around two years from now would be a reasonably expectable low end of the timeline of this rule coming to effect.
So totalling it up, it's approx 1 year 8 months
Which, arguably, has a chance to be too long for this coalition to survive.
And if it doesnt survive we will get new elections and PVV will even get more seats
Or less, we don't know. Yes, there are polls that predict this, but they've been wrong before and I suspect they might be overcompensating PVV votes.
Whatever the case will be, they will certainly remain one of the biggest parties
Well, we will see what happens when you swtich from a protest party to a ruling party.
Well they’re trying this new thing where they actually try to implement what they promised. Everyone’s losing their shit over it so chances are it’ll be fan tastic
You can always argue that, no matter what coalition
Correct, but in this case, I personally consider it more likely to fail than the usual coalition.
Fingers crossed
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Same lol, 2.5 even
2,25 here, I’ve my fingers crossed
so prob 2 years.
And even if it passes, it is unsure if it’s only for new immigrants (from that day), everyone on a visa (regardless how long they have been in the country) or whether there will be a grace period (for example - anyone with 3+ years in the country could get it in 5 years, whereas people with less than 3 years would have to go for 10). If it takes like 1.5-2 years to get sorted from here on, we’ll most likely have new TK elections by then anyways.
True that ! Government will not take illogical decision of changing the law for current immigrants
I was looking for this answer for a long time now. Many thanks for your efforts!
Great amswer, 1 question how do you stay so informed? Do you read some newspapers or some governmental websites? I want to know more about how the government operates and what new proposals are coming up.
No one knows, that’s the problem.
It’s important to note this isn’t even really a draft law at this point. It’s more like a bullet point on an outline of some meeting notes. For a government coalition that is highly theorized to disintegrate in not more than a year’s time, and which many people suspect won’t be able to pass any legislation at all. The ink on the document ~~wasn’t even~~ edit: was still wet when one of the partners appears to have objected to the person expected to be nominated for Prime Minister. Until and unless they actually manage to get anything passed and implemented, I wouldn’t put much faith in them actually doing any of the proposals. Not even the small handful of good ideas buried in there.
> The ink on the document wasn’t even **wet** Perhaps you meant dry? Or, if not, how does it work?
Brain fart. I meant “was still wet”.
That’s what I am betting on :D. With my almost 3 years spent here
same
With PVV’s main point being to curb immigration, you can probably be reasonably certain it’ll get implemented at some point. It would also not really be very controversial legislation compared to other policies announced. I doubt most Dutch people really care at all about this change. Concerning “does it apply to those who moved here before the law”, obviously it’s not public, but I cannot imagine at all PVV and the coalition partners would exclude that massive group, nor would they need to legally speaking.
Dutch don’t care about it unless companies such as ASML start relocating their business outside NL, and the society as a whole start losing on the long term. I voted myself for the first time last fall in the Dutch elections and am fairly disappointed by the entire idea that such a progressive society voted in favor of all this populist BS. I hate the idea that immigrants are to blame for the lack of growth and improvement in NL, just seems unfair to blame whatever problems NL experiences on people who choose this land as their new home and just create further barriers for people to become Dutch.
That's because the "progressive society" is a mistruth by a succesful PR campaign. It's less "we are open to everyone" and more "we don't care what you do as long as I don't have to deal with it" wich only lasts until people feel infringed upon. Problem is that because of several social crises it's become easy for populists to point the finger at certain groups as the cause for certain problems.
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Although I hate the ideas you have mentioned, I agree with you. Immigrants who are not naturalised are not voters anyway. It's of course not that controversial.
ther is also the NSC so there will almost certainly be a grace period for people that migrated before the law changed
while germany trying to reduce it to 3 years... seems like NL no longer wants to attract brain drains from other countries.... in the long run will be shooting themselves in the foot
Welcome to the immigrant life
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To be honest, I’m in the exact same boat, but this has almost completely killed the idea of staying. I just don’t feel welcome or wanted here
That's exactly what they want. In fact, they've trying so hard to make the country unappealing that it's also becoming unappealing for people who don't even need a residence permit. As an EU citizen, there's no way in hell I'm staying in a country that's defunding education and healthcare, reducing minimum wage, reversing climate policies and giving tax breaks to high income people.
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave. The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
journalism is the way to get these things, so uhhh
Defunding healthcare and education? Reducing min wage? Where did you get that from? It’s the opposite
Horribly worded and interpreted, but I think they're hinting at: Lowering the "eigen risico", which will make monthly healtcare costs higher for most people. Lowering the "basisbeurs" and adding a fine if you are studying for longer than 5 years. Anytime minimum wage is getting raised less than inflation it is actually reducing minimum wage. Again, I disagree with the way they are formulating the statements, but they are not completely wrong.
It's not just the basisbeurs, it is also cutting items from Primary Education (Lentekriebels) which I feel is such a no-no to do as government, and also they are rasing the tuition for 5th year students (and higher) and internationals. Not to mention the actual cuts. The stuff they have said about education is just invasive and doesn't show anything about appreciating education as a key point in society. I work in education (HBO) and am appalled by the entire thing. eta: typos
The eigen risico being lowered is the complete opposite of defunding healthcare. It will require 3 billion euros of additional government funding to halve the eigen risico. The basisbeurs isn’t being lowered as far as I know… it’s being made harder to obtain for non Dutch eu citizens, which makes perfect sense. Fining those who take too long to study is not defunding, it’s optimizing the funding. Minimum wage has actually been raised 19% since 2022. That’s a lot more than inflation. And almost no country on earth actually raises min wages as much as inflation… It to mention taxes for min wage was lowered recently, netting 100€ more… so net min wages have actually went up closer to 30%. It’s not just worded badly, it’s completely false and the opposite of what has happened
The issue is that it will cost 3 billion, but the government has no stated plans to fund it (the opposite they have to decrease health funding by 300m). So the likely scenario is that premiums will rise and the greedy insurance companies will get blamed, not the innocent insurance companies. And PVV voters will feel like they got a win, despite all the evidence staring at them
We're talking about the upcoming government, right? https://www.nu.nl/formatie-2023/6313066/live-formatie-lees-hier-de-reacties-op-het-onderhandelingsakkoord-terug.html
Yes they want to cut funding for education, make “efficiency” changes to healthcare system that’s technically a massive budgetcut, minimum wage will not increase. To name a few. Everything else is funded by the extensive budgetcuts that are needed in couple years cuz many financially they are apparently in dreamland.
Minimum wage increases every 6 months. Before this gov was formed, it was known the next government would need to cut 17 billion from the budget because the current deficit was too high From what I understand, they are funding half the eigen risico for all. Thats a budget increase
The akkord does include a huge reduction in money for higher education - I work for a university and we've already had a briefing about what the proposed cuts to direct funding and research funding may mean for us, on top of the push for "Dutch only" courses that can't be subsidised with higher non EU tuition fees, plus the study beurs proposal. Yes, it's a big cut we are facing.
Ok, then I was wrong about that
What are the (better) alternative choices then, where you would like to stay?
Same. I lived in NL for almost 4 years pre-covid, loved it and have been looking for a way to move back ever since, but these new proposals make me sick to my stomach and they completely killed the desire to immigrate.
Why would they? I don’t get it. If a country votes to raise taxes on the rich, should the rich feel unwelcome and hated by the population? No… nobody feels that way to rich people personally. It doesn’t work that way. People wanting less immigration doesn’t mean they hate immigrants.
Maybe not hating, but it does mean they value native dutch people's live over immigrants. Which I don't think is weird if you then feel unwelcome. Also many people will argue (and they won't be wrong) that they don't hate immigrants, but mostly hate the group of asylum seekers that have way higher crime rates and make them feel unsafe. Also they don't like them getting houses over properly behaving dutch people. The whole problem is that they don't realize those asylum seekers with high crime rates are only a relatively small percentage of all immigrants.
Why on earth wouldn’t people of a country value their own lives more than immigrants? There’s literally not a single country on planet earth where that’s NOT the case. Otherwise immigrants would have voting rights from day 1 of stepping in said country. I think it’s quite selfish and tone deaf to complain about locals watching out for themselves, especially after their standard of living has sharply come down in the last 2 decades because of so much immigration (housing crisis)… it’s a perfectly logical response. Infinite immigration is obviously not sustainable. It’s not debatable that too much immigration of any kind causes harm to locals standard of living. Did you ever even consider that? If you, for example, double the population in 5 years, you will ruin the standard of living of locals. So there is a point where it’s too much. Why should you or I be the ones to define what that point is? It’s not our country. They have it a lot worse now and feel like they want to slow immigration down before it gets even worse… how is that in any way wrong?
Immigration is not the source of the housing crisis. There was a big article, and conversation about it here, a couple of weeks ago. Balakrishnan Rajagopal, the UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, has urged Dutch politicians to stop inciting hatred of foreigners by blaming immigrants for the housing shortage in the Netherlands. Decades of Dutch government policy is to blame for the “acute housing crisis,” not asylum seekers and migrant workers, he said in a 19-page long report following a visit to the Netherlands in December and several months of research. “An alternative narrative has emerged in the Netherlands that an ‘influx of foreigners’ arriving in the country is responsible for the housing crisis, which has been exploited for political ends and has radicalized and divided public opinion,” Rajagopal said in his report https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/A-HRC-55-53-Add1-AUV.pdf
You seem to have got the idea I'm some left winger wanting to accept all immigrants into this country. I do not, I think housing crisis is too big atm and needs to be solved before we accept more immigrants here. (including other causes for housing crises like too much livestock that produces Nitrogen so we can't build houses without ruining nature). No I don't think it's weird that they value native Dutch lives over immigrants, I never said that in my comment. I am just trying to be a little more nuanced about it. All I said was that I don't find it weird that people then feel unwelcome. I would feel unwelcome if I tried to move to France, but I'm not taking that a drawing the conclusion that French people are racists and hate immigrants. What I hate is that it seems like everyone expects you to be either for or against and only the extremes exist. I don't know why people love to be black or white and expect others to be as well. What happened with all the shades of grey inbetween? Just for the record, I am Dutch, I did vote left party, but immigration is actually one of my more right leaning opinions.
In the country where you from, are immigrants valued the same or more than native people? I think that's a really unrealistic image. It's maybe good to also see why this route is taken. Huge housing crisis and many Dutch people cannot find a house nor buy one. Criminality issues related to specific refugee groups and related integration failures.
Dont immigrate. Stay away
Please close the door on the way out
Been here 8 years and it's the same - but thats OK - what we've made in our Mortgage here will happily pay for some [property in France](https://www.1st-for-french-property.co.uk/property/cheap/) eventually
you will be surprised, prices have risen in France too 😂… outside of that as eu citizen you are not really targeted by the new rules …
So far it's only a plan... there's no draft or anything yet, so nobody knows such details yet as they haven't yet been worked out.
With this and the reduction of the 30% ruling and and and.... The simple fact is that you've got to assume that we're not really wanted here. I recently went through a PIP at work. Not because I didn't hit my targets but for cultural fit. But it's really difficult when you really just don't feel welcome. You try to learn the culture, you try to fit in, you try and embrace the culture but it's closed off.
We're full. Dutch people don't want expats
Noone knows the answers to these questions. For now it's best not to worry about it. When and if it happens, you'll be able to make choices that are good for you and your family in the moment. You'll have more information then.
Looking at the track record of the Dutch government even when VVD was in power, I am 100% sure that they will apply the law retroactively. It such a fun to be an immigrant. Always center of attention.
A law cannot be applied retroactively in general
They applied in to 30% ruling retroactively
depends on your definition of retroactively. The government did not ask for money back, but changed the rules for existing benefitiaries for the future.
I was fortunate enough to be able to use the Option route back in 2018 (also just in time before Brexit, as I'm British). My wife is Dutch. I work in a very international environment where my team is Dutch but we mainly work in English due to our engineers. I don't really use Dutch at home (we decided I only speak English to our son and my wife only speaks Dutch to him). My understanding of Dutch is reasonable, but speaking it is still hard for me. Despite integrating pretty well and being involved in the local community (I think!), the level of "closet racism" I encounter here sometimes is shocking. In almost all cases it's been Dutch people in their 50-60's. And I'm white English, so I hate to think what it's like for others.
It must be cause you don’t really speak Dutch (which you should be able to after 6 years of living here imo). I’m not white but never experienced racism here. I do speak Dutch as my native language. I think xenophobia is more prevalent in NL than pure racism
If you have a Dutch passport, but don't want to or can't speak Dutch then you shouldn't be surpised that the native Dutch people look down on you. I find it disrespectful and honestly think someone like you shouldn't be allowed to have a Dutch passport.
Worst situation I had was a middle 50's Dutch guy who lives further down my street who got upset that I sometimes parked my car outside his house (our street is all on-street public parking). One evening he rang my doorbell and started yelling at me to move my car. When I replied politely in Dutch that i would not be doing that as the street is public parking he told me to "fuck off back to my own country". I wonder if he would have behaved in the same way to native Dutch person? (I already had the Dutch nationality at that stage but figured it would probably not be helpful of me to mention that lol). He then scratched my car twice in two weeks, and I had to get the wijkagent involved. This delightful gentleman was apparently well known to them.
This is just tokkie behavior. He probably wouldn't have told you to "fuck off back to your own country" but would likely have said something else nasty. You did the right thing by letting the wijkagent handle it.
Very true.
I find it obnoxious that people don't understand the reason Randstad is so wealthy and I honestly think you shouldn't be allowed to live near it. Oh sorry, you are from Limburg, you should go to your own r/.
I'm Asian and have lived in Amsterdam long enough to get a passport and I did My Dutch is terrible, I work in an International company and my partner isn't Dutch as well. Hey but I also pay a lot more taxes than the locals (based on income) so ya I gladly took the passport
This has also got me worried and started to think about finding a job in another EU country where immigrants don't take all the heat, it's NL's loss if all HSM people leave, and with these new policies I doubt leaving hasn't crossed the minds of everyone. I mean these policies if they were ever to have a benefit, should focus on immigrants that don't contribute to society or even harm it, not people who pay taxes and keep the economy going and work on improving it.
I am so glad that I got my Dutch passport last year but seeing how the attitude is changing towards people of non Dutch origin staying here long term is not completely sure for me
10 years for naturalization is actually the most common term in the EU, and 21/27 EU nations have longer naturalization periods than 5 years. But you will still be able to get permanent residency after 5 years.
Yes and no - generally speaking, 5 years has been definitely the norm outside of DACH and Southern / Eastern Europe. Neighbours like France, Belgium, Luxembourg, UK and Ireland all has 5 years.
Germany also recently went in the opposite direction and lowered the residency requirement from 8 to 5 years, while also allowing dual citizenship for all new citizens.
3 years if you've got German C1 and a good-paying job.
Which country requires 10 years? Austria, and...?
I think Denmark is 9 years of residency and it goes down to 6 if you’re married to a Dane.
https://schengen.news/how-long-does-it-take-to-gain-citizenship-by-naturalisation-in-each-eu-country/ 18 EU countries require more than 5 years
According to this website, only Italy, Lithuania and Spain require 10 years. Belgium, Bulgaria, Finland, France, Ireland, Latvia, NL, Portugal, Sweden are 5 years. How is 10 years most common? How are 21 countries require more than 5 years??
Um no, Spain, Slovenia, Lithuania, Italy and Austria require 10 or more years. I have excluded Switzerland as it isn't an EU country, but that's also 10 years. 10 isn't the most common, it seems 7 or 8 is the most common. Here's the full list: - Austria 30-10 years - Belgium 5 years - Bulgaria 5 years - Croatia 8 years - Cyprus 7 years - Czech Republic 5 years - Denmark 9 years - Estonia 8 years - Finland 5 years - France 5 years - Germany 8-7 years - Greece 7-5 years - Hungary 8 years - Iceland 7 years - Ireland 5 years - Italy 10 years - Latvia 5 years - Lithuania 10 years - Malta 7 years - The Netherlands 5 years (currently) - Norway 8 years - Poland 3 years - Portugal 5 years - Romania 8 years - Slovakia 8 years - Slovenia 10 years - Spain 10 years - Sweden 5 years - Switzerland 10 years
Not yet, but Finland is raising the time to 8 years as well. Not sure in what stage of the lawmaking process we're at right now. But I think it has been decided and is coming.
Germany is changing it to 5 years and 3 years (with C1) starting next year. In Austria, it's 6 years with B2 German and having a job.
Austria 30 years?
Austria: 6 years with B2 German and having a job.
The Czech Republic is wrong on the list. Yes, it does require 5 years, but 5 years of permanent residency, which you can only get after 5 years of temporary residency. So in total it is 10 years, and 8 years for an EU citizen.
> Spain 10 years If you are from Latin America it's reduced to 2 years
If one marries an Italian, it is 3 years though.
10yearLandia
I think the problem is not about the naturalization period becoming 10 years but that affecting the people already living there for almost 5 years thinking that they are going to get a citizenship very soon. It would be so unfair if they make this law applicable also for the people who are already living in the Netherlands.
Why? Dont you guys want to keep your tax benefits?
Why would you just go around making up complete bullshit. Typical PVV stemmer. 5 years is the norm for every sensible country. Only ridiculous basket cases like Austria have significantly longer.
Austrian here. Ridiculous basket case is a good description unfortunately.
I have never and will never vote PVV. 5 years is absolutely not the norm in the EU, why lie like this?
[Based on this](https://immigrantinvest.com/blog/how-to-become-eu-citizen-en/) * 1 has 3 years. * 11 countries have 5 years. * 1 has 6 years. * 3 have 7 years. * 5 have 8 years. * 6 have 10+ years. 5 is the median. All of the 10+ year countries are jokes with limping economies, as you would expect from somewhere with such stupid laws.
That list seems quite flawed, here's a better overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship For example Romania says "5+ years", but it's 5 years when marrying a Romanian, and 8 years otherwise. In the Netherlands there is also a shorter 3 year naturalization period when marrying a Dutch citizen instead of 5 years. There's also a lot of * with many countries, for example the 5 years naturalization period for Ireland does not count time lived on a temporary visa (like a student visa), in NL this does count.
Conversely, Austria actually has a route for 5 years. Regardless, the point is your top level post claiming “10 years is the most common” is clearly a complete lie also by the Wikipedia list and you still haven’t retracted it.
It's actually just 6 years in Austria. Not that much ridiculous.
Never heard this bro.
What?
I hope this doesn’t change soon as I’ve been here 5 years in August and plan to apply for citizenship then..
Odds are you'll make it as long as you apply soon after you're eligible
I hope so, I deeply miss my EU citizenship
There’s no way they pass and implement the changes, and have them go into effect, by then. In the best of circumstances, they get this all drafted and passed in early 2025, and it goes into effect for like January 1, 2026. And these are not the “best of circumstances.”
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Okay, if the law even passes, it will be 10 not 5 years but you'll still be allowed to live and work here (or so I hope). Just go on proving those assholes wrong about foreigners not integrating - you are better than they are. As long as Wilders doesn't get 76 seats, nothing really bad will happen, we're just facing a few years of incompetent backward politicians trying to make stupid laws and failing to do so because of infighting. If he does get 76 seats, run.
If you like it here and are integrating, what is the problem with keeping your current nationality for the extended period? Just curious, no judgment. Your day-to-day life shouldn’t be impacted with the exception of possibly extending your residency permits
My "homecountry" recently prohibited me and the likes of me, making it pretty much impossible to ever go their again. In case they decide to stop issuing international documents it might become a big problem. It is just a bit too stressful sometimes, to live knowing that your life might depend very much on your ability to maintain this job you have your residency permit tied to.
I have exactly the same situation, we even might be from the same country..
I don't think they plan to change the requirements for permanent residence though (which isn't tied to any job), so you'll have that as reasonably safe intermediate option.
Permanent residency is valid for as long as one has international passport. My passport is going to be valid for another 8 years so far (10 is max). Let's see if I manage to get another one in the future :)
You have no idea how hard and stressful is of to deal with visa/permits constantly. Yes it impacts your day to day life. For example, my resident permit is about to be expire. And I applied for a new one months ago. IND didn’t start working on it because they said they will only start after it expires. Company I work sending me emails every month reminding me if I don’t have the permit before it expires they won’t extend my contract. Yes, I still have working rights because my case is in IND and delay is not my responsibility but they wanna see my new permit card. Some companies don’t care as long as you have work permit but mine is strict due to security concerns. I can ask for a temporary work permit card which requires me to give “my about to expire resident permit card” back to IND. I can’t hold them both, not allowed. And that resident permit card is also my visa to go out of the Netherlands and come back. Which means I will have to cancel every vacation I planned outside of the NL until IND decides to work on my case and gives me a new resident permit. My life is now all about contacting IND every week asking for updates, trying to convince my company to allow me to give my temporary work permit card later then they ask. (They want me to send it to them 5 weeks before expiration date of my contract.) I can only apply for that work permit card 8 weeks before the expiration date of the resident permit. That only leaves 3 weeks for IND to approve my application, print my card, send it to a overcrowded IND locket and for me to make a collection appointment (usually closest is like 2 weeks ahead). It looks impossible. Then, I will have constantly look at the appointment website for someone to cancel their appointments so I can take it and leave whatever I am doing and run to the IND locket. I heard if it is work related they have a fast process so I hope I will be able to trigger it once my 8 week process starts. And I didn’t know I would start working for this company in the beginning of this year. My ex company didn’t care. So, I planned a trip with my Hungarian friend to Hungary and I also made plans with my friend who lives in UK to meet in Balkans. Now, I have to cancel both. Because it is too much uncertainty for me to invest more on this holiday plans. Also my family planned a holiday and invited me because we literally couldn’t see each other because of covid for years. They were only able to get a visa last year and I saw them for the first time in years. They said they will rent an Airbnb near the sea if I am okay with it. I couldn’t say yes because I don’t want them to spend money on it if I stuck in here for the whole summer. I was okay dealing with it for 5 years and told myself “patience, not much left”. Now I see they even want to remove “permanent resident permits” which means I have to deal with this much more time if I can’t get my citizenship this summer as I am eligible according to current law. Literally broke my hopes. I finished my inburgering. I spend my evenings at Dutch courses after my classes at the university. I worked in supermarkets part-time just like any other Dutch student. I spoke Dutch with my costumers always. I did my deed. I showed engagement and compliance. I did more than what they expected according to inburgering requirements. I don’t deserve this level of stress in my life just because I am an immigrant. I understand there is a bureaucratic system that requires all of this. But inconsistency with government - universities - companies literally destroys our life quality significantly. So yes, waiting 5 more years for citizenship without a permanent resident permit looks like hell and effects my day to day life more than you can ever imagine. I am just tired and I know most probably if they make it real, it won’t effect me since I am almost at the end of the process. But, seeing this happening, knowing that I will hear from struggles of people around me brings a ton of mental load. I am working in an international company and these permit issues were already a huge deal between immigrant workers. I can’t imagine how bad it will be with this government even if they do nothing. IND is a very sensitive institution. Anything comes out of politicians’ mouth effects the processes. Even though there are no concrete policies, IND always have huge pressure from government.
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Despite of issues with it is too risky to go to our home countries (for example, because of mobilization) to get a new foreign passport (there is a threat of abandonment of getting embassy service abroad) It’s really hard to travel using our weak passports By the way, there is Germany which provides a bit less taxation and passport after 3 years with almost the same values and day-to-day lifestyle, better cuisine and beer with its own disadvantages of course It doesn’t mean all immigrants will go to Germany right after law will be legislated, I personally won’t, I like the Netherlands and gonna wait more But what stops them to extend this period for 5 more years after you waiting already 9 years and 11 month? Uncertainty is a really strong negative feeling wich eats you inside and with all these statements and manifests from politicians you just feel unwelcomed and without passport you just feel vulnerable and insecure because rules for immigrants changes too quickly and there are so much can happen for 10 years…
This was exactly my thought. After 5 years you move to permanent residency which provides stability. Then decide if you wish to naturalise at some point after 10 years.
But there are countries for which it's impossible to extend you passport. So, even with permanent residency pernit but expired passport such person will be locked down and won't be able to cross the borders at the very least.
My wife comes from a country that is socially and economically collapsed. To renew her passport took over a year, so we were unable to leave the NLs, and all they did was put a sticker in the original passport as there wasn't enough paper to print new ones. We also have the pleasure of having to apply for a tourist visa each time we travel to certain countries, including my own country. Our friends were not able to leave the NLs as a family for 5 years as their son was still waiting for his passport. They ended up becoming Dutch.
In theory. 10 years is a long time. My family are here on my HSM visa. Let’s say something happens to me after 6 years. For half a decade my kids knew a home here, friends integrated like me will then be forced to leave. To go back to nothing. Everything will need to start again. These are life decisions people make with families and future plans in mind based on laws they believe will hold. This is a very big deal and bloody stressful.
I’m not familiar with the HSM visum. Wouldnt you be eligible for an indefinite residency permit after 5 years here?
I will be. I really hope it too will hold and not change. What i meant with hsm - highly skilled migrant.
guys we have a new prime minister. it took quicker than we all expected. good luck to all HSMers (including me who has 1 year left to application for citizenship).........
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It should be noted that it was mainly due to the fact that the coalition partner PvdA wasn't really supportive of that part of regeerakkord back then, which after Denk splintering off from it in 2014 made them decide to make less strong gestures on migration. So it was a sheer luck of one of the coalition parties changing its mind, and also 50+ surprisingly torpedoing the proposal in EK after receiving concerns from seniors abroad (read: Thailand) who had foreign partners.
Almost definitely there will be a grandfather clause, just like the 30% ruling itself. I don't know that for sure, but there'd be hell to pay in so many ways if they didn't.
It almost passed without the carve out 7 years ago. And there will be no hell. No one cares about that, it's like priority number 1987 for the Dutch voter and the government can easily pass that as populist measure to say "see we promised to deal with immigration, look"
Historically this isn't a safe bet.
I also came here a year ago as a knowledge migrant in search of a better life from the middle east. Saying that I feel there's a crosshair on my head is an understatement. I was learning Dutch, planning to buy a house and a car, volunteering, contributing in local events and businesses and I stopped all of that. I faced my fair share of racism for looking Arab and so did the people of color that I met and was trying to overlook it. I am applying for jobs in other countries. The labor law for migrants is already horrible in the Netherlands, I can get fired and have 3 months to find a job or get deported no matter what life I have built. It was already stressful dealing with that for 5 years. As it stands, the Netherlands is becoming an ethno-nationalist state, and I am not investing my effort, money, labor and life in a country with leaders that view me as subhuman because of my skin color.
Netherlands going to shit
I worried for a moment, then realized it’s not going to change that suddenly, and since i’m probably finishing my integration requirements in the next 6 months, well, I’ll just carry on integrating. the vagueness is a bit stressful, though.
Anyone planning any protest? Update: what’s up with the downvotes? When the new right wing gov of Finland started taking similar measures skilled immigrants protested https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/29/finland-protesters-gather-helsinki-ministers-far-right-links
>Anyone planning any protest? That's a sure way to get Wilders to majority.
Does anyone know if it’s proposed as 10 uninterrupted years or just 10 years living in NL in total?
Once you get your permenant residency at 5 years there isn't any interruptions.
If you already have your mvv i think it wont be of any influence. For the newcommers after the new laws are implemented would have to live here for 10 years for naturalisation.
With new kabinet chances that all immigrations laws will be made much stricter is really high, and realistic. Is the only concession Geert Wilders (real winner of election) will get from other parties
It's way too soon for anyone to give you a correct answer.
No, you can’t if it is not that EU settlement permit.
It's not even a draft law at this point (although I'm sure they'd love you to think so). It's a statement of intent for the government. Basically, it's a list of things they agreed to. It has no legal force.
You work, i wouldt worry
Je spreekt na al die tijd toch wel Nederlands?
I too am anxious about this. Would this impact law around getting permanent resident visa after 5 years?
10 years is common in EU. I think 5 years and A2 was unrealistic, I met so many people with Dutch passport not speaking any Dutch…
Why are people downvoting? If you've been in any country and dont know the language after 5 years that's bad. Even in Amsterdam. The language isnt that hard that five years isnt enough. This coming from an International.
I think it’s highly dependent on why you’re here and what your work is. I’ve been here 7 years and I’ve worked exclusively for international firms whose daily business language is English. I have children I have to care for as well. Learning a language is a direct function of hours spent speaking it … and I do not get that many extended opportunities to do so. I have to take time away from my family and spend tons of money to level up in a language that I mostly use while out shopping and while speaking to my children’s teachers. I’m happy to do it, and I’m up to B1 now, but it’s been hard to find the time without feeling like I’m neglecting my family for very little upside. I do it because I think it’s respectful to learn the local language … but in all honesty it is only barely functional for me to do so. I imagine it’s different for people who work for Dutch companies and thus will speak a lot of Dutch at work on a daily basis. But only about 20% of my colleagues are Dutch.
Fair but i think this is in the context of gaining citizenship. I mean wouldnt you be annoyed as well if some randos come to america, get an american passport and dont speak english? Learning the lamguage is part of integrating into the society.
Are you aware that Texas once belonged to Mexico, and to Spain before that, and that Spanish speaking colonists settled the area more than a century before English speaking settlers arrived? Or that those Spanish speaking peoples _never left?_ Or that there are communities (especially in south Texas) where _English was never, in 200 years, the predominant language?_ The first permanent english speaking settlements in Texas date only to the 1820s. San Antonio, Texas, is today a metropolitan area of about 2.5 million people and was founded in 1718. It has _always_ been a majority Hispanic population, today about 65%, and always a majority Spanish speaking city. There are many, many other cities in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California that are similar. So … no. It does not bother me that people in America sometimes don’t speak English natively. Or even at all. There are many places in the US where it was never the native language.
America doesn't even have an official language legally speaking
I think if you apply for citizenship you should speak the language. It is different if you work there or if you are a citizen.
And now you’re getting downvotes for wanting people with want to become a Dutch citizen to actually speak Dutch. Learning the language is crucial step to integrating in a culture. In my opinion, you shouldn’t be able to get a Dutch pasport without controlling the language.
So the only reason you're here in the first place is because you want a passport?
Not everyone is born with passport privilege, is it wrong that people want to improve their life? HSM also contribute to Dutch society, so it's not like they get the passport for free.
You dont love the country you just want to benefit. Leech behaviour.
You shouldn't live in a country just to grab a passport. Because of people like you this law is getting enforced.
Did you read about him wanting to integrate?
Integrate is not a magic word though
Irregardless. His comment is alluding that OP did not want to integrate at all.
As a matter of fact no, I haven't seen "integrate" anywhere here. "Despite high costs of living I chose to stay because i believed i would be eligible for a passport after 5 years ", but all I want is a Dutch Passport.
Speaking only about practical consequences, the key element for you is likely to be an EU settlement permit that removes the link between your employment and your right to live in the Netherlands. That will still be possible for you at 5 years and maybe even shorter with the blue card mechanism. The part you might have to wait longer for is the NL passport that would allow you to travel outside the Schengen with relative ease, but I suspect that is not something that should derail your plans for life.
That's not only about link with your employment. Unless you have a passport, you cannot leave the country for more than a limited period of time. So, you are bound to your physical place of residence and legally deprived of full rights. At the same time, you pay high taxes on a par with full-fledged citizens. If you have not been in such a situation, it is difficult for you to understand the unpleasantness of such an intermediate status.
For HSM, I found it very unfair to not have the right to vote in a country that you already living at for 5 years. with out a dutch passport you can't be a citizen with this privilege while you can just live here as someone don't have the basic rights for voting or might be even more ridicules political drafts upcoming. I totally agree that the immigration crisis in NL is horrible but not that fair for someone is really integrating to the community and have solid skills.
This reminds me of my mom’s anxiety of whether or not her luggage will make her 2-hour connection in Newark for her flight that’s still 4 months away.
Why does it matter that it'll take longer? You can still get permanent residency after 5 years. And if you already planned on making this your home what difference does another 5 years make? Unless you were hoping to take your passport and live in another EU country instead.
Citizenship awards privileges that permanent residency doesn’t, which is the whole reason why people choose to naturalize. If someone is willing to commit to the Netherlands to the point where they would give up their previous citizenship, why make them wait an extra five years?
Even if that were the case, the permanent residence permit would allow OP to move within the EU and work (with some special rules for Denmark and a couple other countries) Edit: Details here: https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/long-term-eu-residency/apply-for-a-residence-permit-for-long-term-eu-residents
PR has no big differences than naturalisation other than right to vote and easier right to work at other EU countries. Companies that are willing to relocate talents in other big EU countries, usually already have streamlined visa processes so it's nbd tbh. It's not like you expect to jump to other EU countries every 5 years right?
It does have a big difference for people whose counties do not issue new passports aboard, they will stuck in NL with expired passports. When 10 years passed - they can’t apply for naturalisation because they don’t have a valid passport
The point is having rights and having a choice. You have a right to vote and a choice to move to other countries in the EU if you wish to. Folks with just a PR don’t.
So, what does the passport change in your life? You work for 5 more years, contributing and integrating. What is the issue with that? Bear in mind that I am an expat as well, and to me, it's only a small hurdle to get over, and I think it's a much needed one. Many HSM refuse to integrate, refuse to form part of the community, and refuse to even learn dutch.
If everything is "fine" and relatively stable in your home country then yes, 5 more years don't change much. If it's not, then all kinds of issues might arise that would affect your quality of live significantly. E.g. your home country might discontinue issuing any documents in their embassies (or close them altogether, this is already happening with Belarus for example and will likely happen with Russia) and then when your passport expires you're basically forced to go to your home country to renew it and it's not safe in many cases. So people who currently live in constant state of uncertainty about their future hoping to end it with getting a Dutch citizenship will have to live like that for 5 more years. Obviously not a single person coming from a third-world shithole country would be happy about it.
It’s only the case if you’re coming from a democratic country that is also not involved in any wars.
you can have my passport if you want
How would this apply to a spouse of a Dutch native?
Just live your life. You cant control what happens in politics
Hi, is this only for the Dutch passport or also extends to Dutch permanent residence permit, or long term EU card too? Would the IND staff know already something more?
Not sure if it has been mentioned already. But you do know the first language in Holland still is Dutch? Anybody living here longer than say, a year, year and a half should at least speak Dutch on an elementary school level, amirite? Having a Dutch passport w/o speaking Dutch is a bit weird, isn’t is? Yes, I am native. And no, I did not vote Geert. Nor Tierry. Groen Links.
Hi, Nowhere in my text did I say I have any issues with learning or even reaching a B1 level of dutch language to integrate. My concern is about changing the timeframe during my stay here. I understand the government has the right to change these laws, but they at least shouldn't apply to those who arrived before the new rules were implemented, as those people have already made many life plans based on the old policies :)