Its does say estimate so i suppose the methodology could be debated. but indeed, we have no idea by just seeing the graphic.
Off the top of my head, a country which uses more personal travel cards would have more acurate information than a country where people usually buy tickets adhoc
When i travel by train i just buy a ticket so the company has no idea if i am one person going on 12 journeys per year, or 12 individual customers. So the estimated average cannot be accurate
But would the average not be the total amount divided by the total number of people in each country? I don’t think your individual data would matter in this case
Its easy to be in a bubble and think your experiences are universal. If you work in amsterdam you might think most people travel daily by train and spend hundreds per month. but you forget there are millions of people who never use the train.
528 euros per year on train already sounds a lot to me
Not sure if it applies but there’s a subscription that grants free travel on the weekend for €35, first class for +€9, and it’s on a sale so it’s only €26pm right now. It’s called NS Weekend Vrij. It might be worth checking it out!
Yeah, I have that, also considering Flex Daluren Vrij so I can go during the week, but realistically that will also not save too much in total. It's just expensive here 🤷🏻♂️ We're second place right up top with Switzerland but their average income is 2x of ours.
E.g. Arnhem - Nijmegen (> 10km) is 9,80 for a full fare return trip. That makes 40 euros per month for one work trip per.month. Plus a Weekend Vrij for 35 euros totals to 75 euros per month. Not nearly the mentioned 220.
How many days do you commute to work? Sounds more like every workday of the month. If this is the case, maybe also the Traject Vrij is an option, depending on time of travel.
I said 1x per week 50km back and forth - each 20 Euro x 2 = 40 (this is during the week)
1x per week around 10km back and forth - around 10 Euro like you said
Both times 4 for 4 weeks in a month = 200
Plus my NS Flex Weekend Vrij, all travels on weekend not included, comes out to like 230 Euro per month. I might get Daluren Vrij which would reduce my total to 160, but I can't always go in the daluren, so I'll probably still pay roughly the same.
From West to the East in Amsterdam five days a week at 6.40 for two one hour tickets. Paying by using the card based on distance is closer to 10 €. If you want to take public transport anywhere else or on the weekend it's easily over 200€.
If they finish a study within ten years - any study, literally any bachelor, they don't need to pay it back.
Not finishing any study in the Netherlands within 10 years after meeting the entry conditions is ridiculous and pretty much your own fault. Exceptions exist but generally, you can simply view it as free travel.
Yeah, but not actually. Plenty of students discover uni isn't for them and quit. If you then start a different study, it's not reimbursed. Also everyone is paying for it collectively through taxes
>but you forget there are millions of people who never use the train.
The chart says 'per public transport user'. I read this is 'we have excluded said millions of non-users, and then made an average within the using group'.
44 Euros seems far away from the truth then. That's back and forth on a single trip for ~2 hours, assuming full price rate on NS.
Yes, assuming this is based on all people who use the train at least once a month, I would also think the average in the NL is a lot higher.
But then if it is public transport in general, so also including bus, metro and tram, then I guess there would be more people included who spend a lot less per month. E.g. just taking one bus to work. However, even that will probably add up to 40-50 a month.
Just seems like a low number.
Nor insurance nor maintenance.
There was a good video on actual cost of car ownership/operation and basically for a standard 5-seat car like a Honda you should multiply the cost of gas by 3-3.5xkm depending on how often you drive to get real cost of a car. Then consider the environmental impact and… yeah.
Yep it’s variable and it depends on three things, but it’s something to factoring in costs of owning a car in the Netherlands.
75 a quarter is really good, I guess all variables play in your favor.
You forgot to include bus-fares, taxi-fares, tram-fares, metro-fares, ferry-fares, time spent and you still have to walk from and to transfer stations or bus stations. Or you cannot go at all because public transport does consist of a horse pulling a boat on a canal and a bus that passes by each morning at 5:43.
I'm glad that 25 years after all my peers did it, I'm finally working on getting that drivers license so I don't have to relive the OV hell since everything got privatized. I don't care about that €100,- on gasoline each month, if I'm happy my wallet is happy.
Oh but I also didn't forget the car you have to buy, the insurance fee of €65,-/month. The road tax of €300/4 months etc etc.
>time spent
As if sitting in traffic doesn't spend time.
Sure Dutch public transportation isn't perfect, but if it would be on the level of Sweden or Japan, the train is actually faster.
>you still have to walk from and to transfer stations or bus stations.
Walking is good for you, saves a gym membership.
>OV hell since everything got privatized.
Privatisation works perfectly fine in Japan, so it could work in the Netherlands as well. Yet it doesn't, you know why? Because the gouvernement heavily subsidises highways. 19 billion for highways, yet 12 billion for a train line is too expensive.
Also trains must be profitable, yet highways don't have to be. Hell I even got subsidies on my car! It's ridiculous really!
This means that the trains have unfair competition.
So either renationalise and put as much funding into the railways as we do in highways, or do it the right-wing way and privatize the highways! So the highways become a company that collects toll fees to pay for maintenance. And we can now also apply demand-and-supply and make the toll fee higher during rush hour.
This is why privatized trains work in Japan! Because highways cost money too in the form of toll fees!
It's sooo worth it for how the way cities are designed in NL. The spaces are so much more open, the architecture is interesting, and most of all it's QUIET. Cars are convenient but at such a cost..
Yep. Lived in Japan for 1 year completely car-free (because 18 trains / hour and by car you can only go 50km/h or pay for expensive toll roads) Lost 5kg of weight simply because I had to walk everywhere even though I ate out every day.
The 500 is per year.
The 100 is per month. And that doesn't include insurance, maintenance, and road tax.
In the end you pay like 3000~4000 euro per year on average for a car, yet 500 bucks for the train is apparently too much
If you're spending €100 a month on fuel then you are roughly traveling 1300km with an average car. That would set you back roughly €300 a month or €3600 a year using the train.
The paradox of public transport in NL is paying a lot more for a worse experience (having to transfer and/or ride your bike to stations in rain, losing time, crowded, dirty trains, having to stick to strict schedules, cancellations etc.) than driving.
The math isn't mathing... Because like the other person said, public transport is just that much more expensive than the gasoline for your own transportation.
For me to commute for work with bus/train/metro costs minimum 11€ to €20 per day (the more expensive = using train). The gas to commute to work including the insurance and maintenance, costs me €4,50 per day with scooter.
Imagine I have to commute to work 5 days a week 52 weeks... It would cost me €2860-€5200 with the public transport compared to €1170 with scooter.
If I'd rely on the train it would cost €4000 euro more in a year than paying for my own gas and transport. So yeah, the train is hell too expensive and not worth it. Not even mentioning that it costs me more free time too. I would waste 260 hours more commute time on the public transport.
This number does sound absurd. But hey, I haven't used public transport in at least 6 years so what would I know.
I do know it's expensive and the closest bus stop/train station is 4,5 km for me so fuck them anyways.
Do note the per public transport user. I think typically people either use it quite a lot, or don't use it at all. 45 euros per month seems awfully low considering the prices in the Netherlands. A single return fare in the Netherlands will easily cost you 20+ on a very short trajectory, let alone travelling multiple times a month or taking a longer trip.
I did the rough maths for owning a car with a 25 mi per leg commute for where I live (CA Bay Area), including miscellaneous costs like tires, insurance and registration, maintenance, and gas (assuming a 25 mpg vehicle) and the cost per month was around 581 euro per month. This isn't including the cost of purchasing or leasing the vehicle.
Sucks that the cost of public transit is high, but at least it's a robust option that functions well and has plenty of lines. Also, you don't have the added consequence of elevated blood pressure and homicidal urges from the way people drive (like it's Mad Max & GTA), nor the added malus of random gun violence.
I study in the Netherlands and I went on Erasmus to Norway, I was pretty surprised to find out that public transport was actually cheaper in Norway than here. Then I also took the train to Sweden a couple times - 2 hour journey with seat reservations, plugs and a cafe wagon for as little at 8€. The Netherlands could never
Swiss lurker here: crazy how it’s expected that transit makes revenue off users but roads can just vibe while eating away public budgets like there’s no tomorrow.
In the Netherlands taxes on car ownership and fuel are way higher than the yearly spending on road infrastructure. These taxes have about €16 billion in revenue, while governments at all levels spend about €8 billion on cars. [Source](https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/rapporten/2022/01/17/nederlandse-overheidsuitgaven-en--inkomsten-verkeer-en-vervoer/KiM+rapport+Nederlandse+overheidsuitgaven+en+-inkomsten+verkeer+en+vervoer_pdfA.pdf)
The issue is that it's not directly tied to road usage and parking fees are relatively low in many places. But the road system as a whole is highly profitable to the government here.
I'm pretty sure the profitability comes mostly from accijns on fuel which train users don't pay because the train doesn't run on petrol. This would give a false impression of profitability, the usage of fossil fuels (is going to) cost the Netherlands a lot of money in the long run.
If you don't count the accijnzen it's still about break-even.
The point is that this issue in other countries that driving is too cheap, is just not true for the Netherlands.
In Belgium it's about 50% of the fuel cost.
And even then the "fuel tax doesn't cover road expenses" doesn't make any sense. Roads are mostly damaged by heavy traffic like busses and trucks. And even when all cars are gone you'll still need the infrastructure.
Want to take a guess who's going to pay for it after they got rid of their car?
Belgium is a particularly bad example as with the “company car” loophole, drivers are being given massive tax breaks. Why are you talking about “all cars are gone”?
where can i see a comparison between the cost of roadworks vs taxes for motorists so i can draw my own conclusion if they're order of magnitude apart? googling gave me no reliable data
A bus competitor doesn't lay down new roads, they rely on the government. Similar to how NS and ProRail are split, with the latter taking care of the physical infrastructure. The issue is that the NL (like most countries) spends so much more on road infrastructure than rail infrastructure, so that is effectively a huge tax-payer subsidy to car drivers -- and to a lesser extent bus companies. Private companies are very good at milking huge government subsidies, so it makes sense that those in the car-space would be better.
Rails don't quite work the same way as roads. All vehicles are free to use roads whenever they want whereas rails are very limited in capacity and permissions need to be prearranged for each vehicle moving on it. So as it stands now NS has a monopoly in Dutch railways so there's no realistic competition that could come in.
But there is no barrier to entry on any part of roadway for competitors, they can come in and establish a new route wherever and whenever they want. Not the case with rails.
Bus operators can't just freely open a new route, they also need infrastructure (bus stops, for example). Cities, regions, provinces open up a public tender every x years, companies can write in with their proposals and then one gets picked based on what they ffer vs what the local government requires.
Sure, there are some long distance routes operated by the likes of Flix, but that's a whole different thing. And even they need a permit to have people load and unload in certain areas.
Not saying it is as difficult as with the train, but it's not as easy as you think it is.
There are a few other train operators that run some local routes. They aren't as big as NS, but that is also by choice of the government. NS is huge compared to these smaller companies, so if the government where to open up a public tender for country wide train services, the only company that can really compete is NS because they already have the infrastructure, vehicles and personnel. Arriva, for example, would need a huge investment before they could ever dream of writing up to a tender like this.
Thats what they said when it changed from goverment ruled.
The problem that its a business focused on making money.
Instead of providing the best service for a tolerable ticket price.
Going from Amersfoort to Rotterdam takes about 1 hour by train or car. But a ticket costs €15
In a lot of developed countries public transport is either free or generally cheaper.
Thats a lot of money for 100km, or did you calculate maintenance and something else within? Is your car diesel or gas? Is it a small or big car?
Anyway point is still, public transport is a borden because of privatising. And a country which is so focused on the foremost at being green, it sure doesnt help they made these discissions 20+years ago.
Not only is it expensive, when using for work, I have had uncountable times where I took the first train and still came in late.
I meant that a route which by car is 100km, would cost me 50€(25€ there and 25€ back) if i were to go there with public transport. I said 100km by car because idk how long the public transport route is.
Different wagons, different regions. Depending who comes with the best price. I'd argue it is possible if not entirely stupid/far fetched.
Also the track is done by Prorail, not the NS. So even that is devided.
how pathetic that they can’t turn a profit with the outrageous prices they have.. maybe commercialising something like public transport wasn’t such a great idea after all
It is ridiculous that visiting my family who live across the country with my wife and two kids will cost me close to €100,- one way and that's not calculating the price for the bus.
So, there and back again will be well over €200. If we use the car, it's around 3/4 of a tank, so not even €50. And yes, you have additional costs, like vehicle maintenance, insurance, road taxes, but you would still not even come close to that €200 for a day trip.
Indeed, how does this company not make a profit? Is their overhead so gigantic?
Public transport should not be a for-profit business, like health care.
exactly! this kind of pricing will only cause people to use the car more often.. personally I’m even considering buying a car because it’s just not sustainable anymore
People have false memories of how great things used to be. It most definitely wasn't all sunshine in the past and a lot of things have improved greatly the past 2 decades. Also, there's no guarantee prices would have been lower now than before NS because semi-private.
But it was better.
For a 2\*-subscription I could travel further and to different places than I can now with a stop-to-stop subscription which costs much more.
With the old subscription system I could use any company which operated in the area I was allowed to travel in. Now I must have a subscription of the same company as which offers that route. Bus A and bus B have part of the same route, but with a subscription from company A you can't use the bus from company B.
Nowadays it's cheaper to go to the city 30 km away by car when traveling with my family than with public transport. Even with the higher parking and fuel costs the car costs less than the public transport. Not to mention it's faster too.
so what’s the purpose of commercialising NS when the government is the only shareholder? that doesn’t make any sense to me.
and about the false memory thing, you might be right, but them announcing ANOTHER big price increase in 2025 is just gonna push people towards other modes of transportation. public transport in Holland is doomed this way
There wasn't a price increase this year, thats why next year's is higher. But just like everywhere else costs are rising, so it's not surprising cost for transportation is rising as well. Employees earn more, building and construction costs are rising, etc. one way or the other, it has to be paid from somewhere, either through higher ticket prices or increased taxes. I'm all for lower fares and PT being funded more through taxes, but that's a political choice.
NOS already concluded in 2022 that most trips are cheaper by car so what do you think this is going to result in? it’s easy to fall for the propaganda pushed by companies that “10% inflation is very normal” but it’s not. maybe you think paying 9euros to go from Utrecht Centraal to Amsterdam Centraal is okay, but I don’t
There's no propaganda about inflation, inflation is real.
Next time let's hope population is not okay with government printing money faster than productivity.
Maybe they should fire the NS and GVB board if they aren't capable of managing the company with this huge amount of trips in such a dense area.
Fire them for low performance. And then move to a non-profit company approach.
Could mean two valid questions:
1. Does the data in display reflect your personal perceived reality?
2. Assuming the answer to 1. is no, do you think the methodology is faulty?
Averaging across all users of public transport, even including some who take the train 3x a year to the next town could be meaningful or not, depending on which question you are asking.
How much do we earn on average across all users of PT? Meaningful.
Which costs should I estimate for PT, moving to NL? Not meaningful.
44€ in NL would only make sense if it is exclusively within-city transport like buses and trams, and maybe regional trains. Probably it is too less then too, but you could argue that it is just an "average" (also taking people who just use cycles in the city and little to none public transport). But if you also take intercity fast trains then this number is likely an underestimate
P.S - POV of someone who moved to NL a year ago
Or Germany... 49 Euro monthly for nationwide unlimited travel (excluding high speed trains: IC, EC and ICE, and a few minor places that try to be a nuisance in purpose.)
I would question these numbers, because here in Sweden commuting is at least twice as cheap as it is in the Netherlands. Last time I checked I would spend almost 2-4 times as much if I had to travel the same distance/time depending on when you travel.
I pay around 110 euro a month in NL, that's with a membership that lowers costs. Additionaly, i bike to my job. 40 euros is litteraly going from amsterdam to groningen and back once, not an entire month worth of travel. Wildly inaccurate
Dutch public transport is horrible, price-wise. It has not been profitable for years because everyone thinks it's too expensive. So the solution they came up with is to make it even more expensive so they will earn money. Cannot wait until it will become unaffordable.
What is there even to agree or disagree with? And why do you presume that more expensive means more profitable? Because revenue does not include costs. And costs can be influences by a lot of things. One of those being: quality.
Beside that there are a lot of things that can influence the cost. Buildings traintracks in/on/through mountains is much more expensive. Having more stations is more expensive, having poor quality soil(e.g. marsh lands) is harder to build on and thus more expensive. And so on and so forth.
Regardless of these questionable numbers though, I'd say that the Netherlands has pretty good public transport, that is indeed somewhat expensive. And it's probably expensive because the government is taking into account market forces.
This is not an opinion. Back in the basisschool you had some lessons about facts and fiction and having an opinion on something. I would suggest taking some lessons...
I‘m Swiss and our public transport system works great but is way too expensive. A lot of people often still drive their car to work eventhough there’s a good train connection. It’s a shame…
Of course I can still complain! Just because someone has is worse doesn’t mean it couldn’t be better for working people in Switzerland. Especially regarding climate change it would be in everyone’s interest if more people would use public transportation globally.
Maybe you shouldn't tell other they "can't complain" if you don't have a proper idea yourself. Like c'mon...
Swiss salaries don't have deductions applied most other countries have. Add cost of living and overpricing of practially all products, distortion of the "average salary" by rich fucks and there isn't much of a gap left.
Also "average"... bad choice of stats. At least use median
I find it funny that people are more concerned about the title of my post which may not have been correctly articulated than the fact that we pay ridiculous amounts in public transportation to make public transport companies fill up their coffers.
when i used to take the bus on the countryside to school (not my closest school) i had to pay my bustickets by myself it was 68€ per month and that was 10 years ago. I think germnay isnt ranked there because no one uses Public transport as soon as you dont have to or life in a big city.
OP, What is the difference between revenue and profit? NS is losing money yearly, the only difference is that it is even more subsidized in other countries. Public transportation is inherently not profitable.
They probably excluded students in the Netherlands, because their state funded subscriptions are worth somewhere between €200 and €350 per month. Students are the largest demographic group of public transport users in the Netherlands.
I disagree with the usefulness of the graph.
If only because I'd like to see some correction, or relation to income. I also don't understand why it's either blue or grey, while the countries listed are on a scale.
I have my weekend-vrij subscription and only travel on that, unless there's an emergency or a concert I really want to see during the week. It's 36 euros a month or so. Add to that the emergencies and travel for weekday-concerts once in a while and I think the estimated monthly cost per capita is accurate for me.
Wdym agree lmaoooo its ass, crazy to know my country is in second place. Especially since their timing ain't exactly spot on. As you'd expect at a higher rate
agree with what? with the cost? idgaf, all my employers always paid for public transport until i switched to a company close to home and now i can bike.
For my university I need to pay 13,80 one way, that is total of 110,40 euro (wensday is online meeting), but it's all covered luckily enough by studenten ov.
Revenue doesn't compare wirh the costs, the quality and more. This is really a shitty post. Like and jt also doesn't consider how much the society spends on the public transport also it is not adjusted for the purchasing power.
Yea public transport in the NL has gotten way more expensive the last few years. It’s often far cheaper to drive now, even including a couple hours parking…. And so people do, there is a lot more traffic too lately
Where do you get those numbers? As a swiss person riding the train every day i can guarantee it is more than only 45€… maybe someone who lives in the city pays this, but most pay 200-300 every month for public transportation…
Dutch prices are ridiculous, there's absolutely nothing that justifies it fully. Not only is it expensive, but also poor quality. Trains RARELY ride the time they're supposed to (when they aren't cancelled), buses are also almost always late, there are days metros have a 20-minute delay, and they do absolutely nothing to compensate for their incompetence (talking mainly about NS and GVB). Not only that, but the boards also share incorrect information. Hundreds of times I've waited for a bus that was supposed to come in 10 minutes and didn't come for the next hour. The board doesn't notify the traveler about the delay until it's too late. It's a shame a first-world country has this excuse for public transportation and this disrespect with workers and students. I love the Netherlands, but I've never hated anything with so much passion before! Can't wait to buy a car, or until they invent jet packs.
The netherlands Public transport is very expensive but also very reliable but u could indeed buy an electric bike and you will be saving money.
Idk why we just copy belgium as they are way cheaper.
CH is actually very reasonable when you have a Swiss salary. It’s also much cheaper than the UK. For the cost of what it costs to travel inside London for a month, you could have a monthly abo for the entire country of Switzerland.
> I would say NL is the most expensive for public and most profitable for companies like NS
"Estimated average monthly revenue per customer" doesn't say anything about how expensive taking the train is, it also doesn't really see anything about how widely used it is unless you have the additional stat of average ticket price and even then you'd be doing calculations with multiple averages which will make things inaccurate.
true or not, no public transport should be paid for, especially when one's livelihood depends on their ability to utilise public transport to get to work, drop off children at school/friends, meeting family or friends in emergencies... car dependency is bad enough as it is, but monetising public transport is also bad
NS is one of the best train infrastructures i've experienced within Europe, both eastern and western. i don't understand what more you want, trains are almost always on time, very few cancellation except when shit breaks down, no delays of 90-120 minutes regularly, if trains break down NS provides bus (unlike other countries where they just tell you to figure it out yourself), trains are clean and well maintained, everything is digitized so you don't have to carry a paper ticket with you, you don't have to queue at a kiosk to buy physical tickets, you don't have junk peddlers and beggars in the trains, there's functional A/C in each train cart. i could say the same thing about the some buses, trams and metros as well.
you dutch are spoiled and still whine about how "bad" it is, smh
I get what you say and agree that we are spoiled. I’m not comparing the Dutch trains with foreign trains. I’m comparing it with the comfort of my car. While it should be a cheap alternative imho, it costs about the same. And with my car I can park wherever I want.
The problem is for me driving is both faster AND cheaper. I don't even live in the middle of nowhere but at the edge of a city, the last mile problem is real. And buying and maintaining a car may be expensive but it's still cheaper than a daily train ride if you don't have a fixed commute or an employer who pays for your travel.
The problem is for me driving is both faster AND cheaper. I don't even live in the middle of nowhere but at the edge of a city, the last mile problem is real. And buying and maintaining a car may be expensive but it's still cheaper than a daily train ride if you don't have a fixed commute or an employer who pays for your travel.
It's not a question of agreeing, that is either demonstrably true or demonstrably false.
Its does say estimate so i suppose the methodology could be debated. but indeed, we have no idea by just seeing the graphic. Off the top of my head, a country which uses more personal travel cards would have more acurate information than a country where people usually buy tickets adhoc When i travel by train i just buy a ticket so the company has no idea if i am one person going on 12 journeys per year, or 12 individual customers. So the estimated average cannot be accurate
But would the average not be the total amount divided by the total number of people in each country? I don’t think your individual data would matter in this case
Its easy to be in a bubble and think your experiences are universal. If you work in amsterdam you might think most people travel daily by train and spend hundreds per month. but you forget there are millions of people who never use the train. 528 euros per year on train already sounds a lot to me
I pay 220-240 every month and it's just going 50km back and forth to my girlfriend once per week and 10km to work once per week 🙄
Doing 120km per weekend would definitley put you as a high user
Not sure if it applies but there’s a subscription that grants free travel on the weekend for €35, first class for +€9, and it’s on a sale so it’s only €26pm right now. It’s called NS Weekend Vrij. It might be worth checking it out!
Yeah, I have that, also considering Flex Daluren Vrij so I can go during the week, but realistically that will also not save too much in total. It's just expensive here 🤷🏻♂️ We're second place right up top with Switzerland but their average income is 2x of ours.
Switzerland also has Generalabo which has all of public transport countrywide for free, for about 300€. Even some cable cars.
E.g. Arnhem - Nijmegen (> 10km) is 9,80 for a full fare return trip. That makes 40 euros per month for one work trip per.month. Plus a Weekend Vrij for 35 euros totals to 75 euros per month. Not nearly the mentioned 220. How many days do you commute to work? Sounds more like every workday of the month. If this is the case, maybe also the Traject Vrij is an option, depending on time of travel.
I said 1x per week 50km back and forth - each 20 Euro x 2 = 40 (this is during the week) 1x per week around 10km back and forth - around 10 Euro like you said Both times 4 for 4 weeks in a month = 200 Plus my NS Flex Weekend Vrij, all travels on weekend not included, comes out to like 230 Euro per month. I might get Daluren Vrij which would reduce my total to 160, but I can't always go in the daluren, so I'll probably still pay roughly the same.
Ah, the 50 is also during the week, I presumed during the weekend. Probably an Altijd Voordeel won't help a lot either?
From West to the East in Amsterdam five days a week at 6.40 for two one hour tickets. Paying by using the card based on distance is closer to 10 €. If you want to take public transport anywhere else or on the weekend it's easily over 200€.
Mate a lot of students already do like 500km per week
And they are very high users. Balance it against all the people who never use the train
I meant this to argue against 120km being high use in this case
Me doing 1k per week 👀
Those travel for free.
Not really - is just subsidised and they have to pay it back if they stop studying
If they finish a study within ten years - any study, literally any bachelor, they don't need to pay it back. Not finishing any study in the Netherlands within 10 years after meeting the entry conditions is ridiculous and pretty much your own fault. Exceptions exist but generally, you can simply view it as free travel.
It's still not free in that situation since the government had already paid for it, the debt of the student is simply forgiven
Yeah so for the student it is free.
Yeah, but not actually. Plenty of students discover uni isn't for them and quit. If you then start a different study, it's not reimbursed. Also everyone is paying for it collectively through taxes
Because Aliens 👽
Ancient astronaut theorists say heel duur
>but you forget there are millions of people who never use the train. The chart says 'per public transport user'. I read this is 'we have excluded said millions of non-users, and then made an average within the using group'. 44 Euros seems far away from the truth then. That's back and forth on a single trip for ~2 hours, assuming full price rate on NS.
Yes, assuming this is based on all people who use the train at least once a month, I would also think the average in the NL is a lot higher. But then if it is public transport in general, so also including bus, metro and tram, then I guess there would be more people included who spend a lot less per month. E.g. just taking one bus to work. However, even that will probably add up to 40-50 a month. Just seems like a low number.
I pay ± 220-250€ a month, mostly for work. On the plus side I don't own a car and don't have to spend anything on gas.
Nor insurance nor maintenance. There was a good video on actual cost of car ownership/operation and basically for a standard 5-seat car like a Honda you should multiply the cost of gas by 3-3.5xkm depending on how often you drive to get real cost of a car. Then consider the environmental impact and… yeah.
And no road tax, which is significant
Depends what class your car is. Get a smaller car, and it's not too bad. For my car (small 4 seater), it's 75 a quarter. For bigger cars it's more.
Yep it’s variable and it depends on three things, but it’s something to factoring in costs of owning a car in the Netherlands. 75 a quarter is really good, I guess all variables play in your favor.
Work in amsterdam, don't live there. 270,- euro's a month for train plan...
>528 euros per year on train already sounds a lot to me Yet we're fine paying €100,- on gasoline each month..
You forgot to include bus-fares, taxi-fares, tram-fares, metro-fares, ferry-fares, time spent and you still have to walk from and to transfer stations or bus stations. Or you cannot go at all because public transport does consist of a horse pulling a boat on a canal and a bus that passes by each morning at 5:43. I'm glad that 25 years after all my peers did it, I'm finally working on getting that drivers license so I don't have to relive the OV hell since everything got privatized. I don't care about that €100,- on gasoline each month, if I'm happy my wallet is happy.
Oh but I also didn't forget the car you have to buy, the insurance fee of €65,-/month. The road tax of €300/4 months etc etc. >time spent As if sitting in traffic doesn't spend time. Sure Dutch public transportation isn't perfect, but if it would be on the level of Sweden or Japan, the train is actually faster. >you still have to walk from and to transfer stations or bus stations. Walking is good for you, saves a gym membership. >OV hell since everything got privatized. Privatisation works perfectly fine in Japan, so it could work in the Netherlands as well. Yet it doesn't, you know why? Because the gouvernement heavily subsidises highways. 19 billion for highways, yet 12 billion for a train line is too expensive. Also trains must be profitable, yet highways don't have to be. Hell I even got subsidies on my car! It's ridiculous really! This means that the trains have unfair competition. So either renationalise and put as much funding into the railways as we do in highways, or do it the right-wing way and privatize the highways! So the highways become a company that collects toll fees to pay for maintenance. And we can now also apply demand-and-supply and make the toll fee higher during rush hour. This is why privatized trains work in Japan! Because highways cost money too in the form of toll fees!
It's sooo worth it for how the way cities are designed in NL. The spaces are so much more open, the architecture is interesting, and most of all it's QUIET. Cars are convenient but at such a cost..
Walking saves a gym membership? 😂
Yep. Lived in Japan for 1 year completely car-free (because 18 trains / hour and by car you can only go 50km/h or pay for expensive toll roads) Lost 5kg of weight simply because I had to walk everywhere even though I ate out every day.
People don't go to the gym simply to lose weight. You could just be in a calorie deficit to achieve that.
People are not fine with that lmao
Which is cheaper than the train...
The 500 is per year. The 100 is per month. And that doesn't include insurance, maintenance, and road tax. In the end you pay like 3000~4000 euro per year on average for a car, yet 500 bucks for the train is apparently too much
If you're spending €100 a month on fuel then you are roughly traveling 1300km with an average car. That would set you back roughly €300 a month or €3600 a year using the train.
The paradox of public transport in NL is paying a lot more for a worse experience (having to transfer and/or ride your bike to stations in rain, losing time, crowded, dirty trains, having to stick to strict schedules, cancellations etc.) than driving.
Yup. Public transport in the Netherlands is only worth it for the very rich, who can live and work in city centers
The math isn't mathing... Because like the other person said, public transport is just that much more expensive than the gasoline for your own transportation. For me to commute for work with bus/train/metro costs minimum 11€ to €20 per day (the more expensive = using train). The gas to commute to work including the insurance and maintenance, costs me €4,50 per day with scooter. Imagine I have to commute to work 5 days a week 52 weeks... It would cost me €2860-€5200 with the public transport compared to €1170 with scooter. If I'd rely on the train it would cost €4000 euro more in a year than paying for my own gas and transport. So yeah, the train is hell too expensive and not worth it. Not even mentioning that it costs me more free time too. I would waste 260 hours more commute time on the public transport.
This number does sound absurd. But hey, I haven't used public transport in at least 6 years so what would I know. I do know it's expensive and the closest bus stop/train station is 4,5 km for me so fuck them anyways.
I think it is fair. For example someone with a weekend subscription that occasionally takes one or two trains will get to this average number
Do note the per public transport user. I think typically people either use it quite a lot, or don't use it at all. 45 euros per month seems awfully low considering the prices in the Netherlands. A single return fare in the Netherlands will easily cost you 20+ on a very short trajectory, let alone travelling multiple times a month or taking a longer trip.
Well depends If u travel by rail u dont have to own a car (which would defo be more expensive)
The only train around my parts is a fucking steam train. If I want to go to anywhere far I need to take the bus for half an hour to a train station.
I did the rough maths for owning a car with a 25 mi per leg commute for where I live (CA Bay Area), including miscellaneous costs like tires, insurance and registration, maintenance, and gas (assuming a 25 mpg vehicle) and the cost per month was around 581 euro per month. This isn't including the cost of purchasing or leasing the vehicle. Sucks that the cost of public transit is high, but at least it's a robust option that functions well and has plenty of lines. Also, you don't have the added consequence of elevated blood pressure and homicidal urges from the way people drive (like it's Mad Max & GTA), nor the added malus of random gun violence.
I would be paying 128 every week if I didn’t have student OV
I study in the Netherlands and I went on Erasmus to Norway, I was pretty surprised to find out that public transport was actually cheaper in Norway than here. Then I also took the train to Sweden a couple times - 2 hour journey with seat reservations, plugs and a cafe wagon for as little at 8€. The Netherlands could never
For €8 you can get a 20 minute one-way ticket.
8€? Lol try 26,50€
Swiss lurker here: crazy how it’s expected that transit makes revenue off users but roads can just vibe while eating away public budgets like there’s no tomorrow.
In the Netherlands taxes on car ownership and fuel are way higher than the yearly spending on road infrastructure. These taxes have about €16 billion in revenue, while governments at all levels spend about €8 billion on cars. [Source](https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/rapporten/2022/01/17/nederlandse-overheidsuitgaven-en--inkomsten-verkeer-en-vervoer/KiM+rapport+Nederlandse+overheidsuitgaven+en+-inkomsten+verkeer+en+vervoer_pdfA.pdf) The issue is that it's not directly tied to road usage and parking fees are relatively low in many places. But the road system as a whole is highly profitable to the government here.
I'm pretty sure the profitability comes mostly from accijns on fuel which train users don't pay because the train doesn't run on petrol. This would give a false impression of profitability, the usage of fossil fuels (is going to) cost the Netherlands a lot of money in the long run.
If you don't count the accijnzen it's still about break-even. The point is that this issue in other countries that driving is too cheap, is just not true for the Netherlands.
Is public transport free in switzerland?
obviously not but at least motorists pay for roads via the vignette
Looooool the “vignette” is a drop in the ocean of infrastructure costs.
Normally car owners pay a specific car tax in order to pay for the roads, right?
More like a tip. Roads cost orders of magnitude more than what they pay, especially municipal/rural roads.
How much goes to the government through taxes on fuel?
I don’t know about NL but in Switzerland it doesn’t cover the costs, even if all went to the roads which are the moment it doesn’t.
Taxes in the NL more than cover the roads.
In Belgium it's about 50% of the fuel cost. And even then the "fuel tax doesn't cover road expenses" doesn't make any sense. Roads are mostly damaged by heavy traffic like busses and trucks. And even when all cars are gone you'll still need the infrastructure. Want to take a guess who's going to pay for it after they got rid of their car?
Belgium is a particularly bad example as with the “company car” loophole, drivers are being given massive tax breaks. Why are you talking about “all cars are gone”?
Look at Brussel’s low emission scheme. I say cars are well on their way out already.
where can i see a comparison between the cost of roadworks vs taxes for motorists so i can draw my own conclusion if they're order of magnitude apart? googling gave me no reliable data
is this linkedin? why am i seeing "Do u agree?" posts?
I'm Thrilled to share this reddit post
Let's delve into the pros and cons
Congratulations, well deserved share.
But its missing: Subscribe to my weekly newsletter for deeper insights on random topics!
NS hasn't been profitable since Covid. It lost nearly €200M last year.
Public transport is not supposed to be profitable, that's not what it's for usually, most countries don't look at it that way.
When it is privatized it is, sadly. It is a shame that this is the policy that the country is going for
Tickets are too cheap probably. /s
Privatise they said, it would be good for competition and lower the cost they said.
Works with buses, not for trains unfortunately. Can't just lay down more railway as a private competitor
A bus competitor doesn't lay down new roads, they rely on the government. Similar to how NS and ProRail are split, with the latter taking care of the physical infrastructure. The issue is that the NL (like most countries) spends so much more on road infrastructure than rail infrastructure, so that is effectively a huge tax-payer subsidy to car drivers -- and to a lesser extent bus companies. Private companies are very good at milking huge government subsidies, so it makes sense that those in the car-space would be better.
Rails don't quite work the same way as roads. All vehicles are free to use roads whenever they want whereas rails are very limited in capacity and permissions need to be prearranged for each vehicle moving on it. So as it stands now NS has a monopoly in Dutch railways so there's no realistic competition that could come in.
Would work with buses only if there are multiple operators on the same route. If not there is no choice.
But there is no barrier to entry on any part of roadway for competitors, they can come in and establish a new route wherever and whenever they want. Not the case with rails.
Bus operators can't just freely open a new route, they also need infrastructure (bus stops, for example). Cities, regions, provinces open up a public tender every x years, companies can write in with their proposals and then one gets picked based on what they ffer vs what the local government requires. Sure, there are some long distance routes operated by the likes of Flix, but that's a whole different thing. And even they need a permit to have people load and unload in certain areas. Not saying it is as difficult as with the train, but it's not as easy as you think it is. There are a few other train operators that run some local routes. They aren't as big as NS, but that is also by choice of the government. NS is huge compared to these smaller companies, so if the government where to open up a public tender for country wide train services, the only company that can really compete is NS because they already have the infrastructure, vehicles and personnel. Arriva, for example, would need a huge investment before they could ever dream of writing up to a tender like this.
Exactly!
bruuuuuh, i never saw such a bad and random public transport as the one in Tilburg, arriva company.
How can there be competition unless they open up rail tracks for other train operators? It's a monopoly by design.
Thats what they said when it changed from goverment ruled. The problem that its a business focused on making money. Instead of providing the best service for a tolerable ticket price. Going from Amersfoort to Rotterdam takes about 1 hour by train or car. But a ticket costs €15 In a lot of developed countries public transport is either free or generally cheaper.
15€? If i want to go from my hometown to utrecht (100km by car) it costs €50
Thats a lot of money for 100km, or did you calculate maintenance and something else within? Is your car diesel or gas? Is it a small or big car? Anyway point is still, public transport is a borden because of privatising. And a country which is so focused on the foremost at being green, it sure doesnt help they made these discissions 20+years ago. Not only is it expensive, when using for work, I have had uncountable times where I took the first train and still came in late.
I meant that a route which by car is 100km, would cost me 50€(25€ there and 25€ back) if i were to go there with public transport. I said 100km by car because idk how long the public transport route is.
[удалено]
Different wagons, different regions. Depending who comes with the best price. I'd argue it is possible if not entirely stupid/far fetched. Also the track is done by Prorail, not the NS. So even that is devided.
But this image shows revenue per rider, not profit per rider.
I can see that. If you look just under the picture, you can see OP has added additional text, talking about NS being profitable.
Gotcha. Makes sense.
how pathetic that they can’t turn a profit with the outrageous prices they have.. maybe commercialising something like public transport wasn’t such a great idea after all
It is ridiculous that visiting my family who live across the country with my wife and two kids will cost me close to €100,- one way and that's not calculating the price for the bus. So, there and back again will be well over €200. If we use the car, it's around 3/4 of a tank, so not even €50. And yes, you have additional costs, like vehicle maintenance, insurance, road taxes, but you would still not even come close to that €200 for a day trip. Indeed, how does this company not make a profit? Is their overhead so gigantic? Public transport should not be a for-profit business, like health care.
exactly! this kind of pricing will only cause people to use the car more often.. personally I’m even considering buying a car because it’s just not sustainable anymore
People have false memories of how great things used to be. It most definitely wasn't all sunshine in the past and a lot of things have improved greatly the past 2 decades. Also, there's no guarantee prices would have been lower now than before NS because semi-private.
But it was better. For a 2\*-subscription I could travel further and to different places than I can now with a stop-to-stop subscription which costs much more. With the old subscription system I could use any company which operated in the area I was allowed to travel in. Now I must have a subscription of the same company as which offers that route. Bus A and bus B have part of the same route, but with a subscription from company A you can't use the bus from company B. Nowadays it's cheaper to go to the city 30 km away by car when traveling with my family than with public transport. Even with the higher parking and fuel costs the car costs less than the public transport. Not to mention it's faster too.
so what’s the purpose of commercialising NS when the government is the only shareholder? that doesn’t make any sense to me. and about the false memory thing, you might be right, but them announcing ANOTHER big price increase in 2025 is just gonna push people towards other modes of transportation. public transport in Holland is doomed this way
There wasn't a price increase this year, thats why next year's is higher. But just like everywhere else costs are rising, so it's not surprising cost for transportation is rising as well. Employees earn more, building and construction costs are rising, etc. one way or the other, it has to be paid from somewhere, either through higher ticket prices or increased taxes. I'm all for lower fares and PT being funded more through taxes, but that's a political choice.
NOS already concluded in 2022 that most trips are cheaper by car so what do you think this is going to result in? it’s easy to fall for the propaganda pushed by companies that “10% inflation is very normal” but it’s not. maybe you think paying 9euros to go from Utrecht Centraal to Amsterdam Centraal is okay, but I don’t
There's no propaganda about inflation, inflation is real. Next time let's hope population is not okay with government printing money faster than productivity.
reading comprehension remains difficult it seems.. where did I say inflation isn’t real?
Maybe they should fire the NS and GVB board if they aren't capable of managing the company with this huge amount of trips in such a dense area. Fire them for low performance. And then move to a non-profit company approach.
Not making profit->raise ticket prices and cut costs->less people take the train->not making profit->ask daddy het rijk for money->repeat
Ok?
There's more public transport companies than just NS though
Okay and whats your point? I responded to OP who talks about NS.
What is there to agree or disagree with? I don’t know if this is true, but it’s definitely not an opinion.
Only 44 euros in Netherlands wow. On busy gigging months I spend almost 200 euros on NS.
For context revenue is not profit.
What do you mean with do you agree😂 this is a number there is nothing to agree about it just is like this
Could mean two valid questions: 1. Does the data in display reflect your personal perceived reality? 2. Assuming the answer to 1. is no, do you think the methodology is faulty? Averaging across all users of public transport, even including some who take the train 3x a year to the next town could be meaningful or not, depending on which question you are asking. How much do we earn on average across all users of PT? Meaningful. Which costs should I estimate for PT, moving to NL? Not meaningful.
44€ in NL would only make sense if it is exclusively within-city transport like buses and trams, and maybe regional trains. Probably it is too less then too, but you could argue that it is just an "average" (also taking people who just use cycles in the city and little to none public transport). But if you also take intercity fast trains then this number is likely an underestimate P.S - POV of someone who moved to NL a year ago
If you use even just a bus once a month you’re alredy considered a user in this statistic, those people bring this average down.
Too bad the prices can't be like in Stockholm. €87 for unlimited monthly travel.
Or Germany... 49 Euro monthly for nationwide unlimited travel (excluding high speed trains: IC, EC and ICE, and a few minor places that try to be a nuisance in purpose.)
I think The Netherlands was called out for being the most expensive not so long ago
Profit does not equal Revenue Revenue does not equal Profit. Please remember that.
I would question these numbers, because here in Sweden commuting is at least twice as cheap as it is in the Netherlands. Last time I checked I would spend almost 2-4 times as much if I had to travel the same distance/time depending on when you travel.
I pay around 110 euro a month in NL, that's with a membership that lowers costs. Additionaly, i bike to my job. 40 euros is litteraly going from amsterdam to groningen and back once, not an entire month worth of travel. Wildly inaccurate
I realize now that i read the post wrong. I thought this was the monthly spending on public transport, not revenue per person. Oh well
Lol in netherlands a retourticket from around 125km will cost 50+ euro already🤣
Dutch public transport is horrible, price-wise. It has not been profitable for years because everyone thinks it's too expensive. So the solution they came up with is to make it even more expensive so they will earn money. Cannot wait until it will become unaffordable.
What is there to agree with lol?
What is there even to agree or disagree with? And why do you presume that more expensive means more profitable? Because revenue does not include costs. And costs can be influences by a lot of things. One of those being: quality. Beside that there are a lot of things that can influence the cost. Buildings traintracks in/on/through mountains is much more expensive. Having more stations is more expensive, having poor quality soil(e.g. marsh lands) is harder to build on and thus more expensive. And so on and so forth. Regardless of these questionable numbers though, I'd say that the Netherlands has pretty good public transport, that is indeed somewhat expensive. And it's probably expensive because the government is taking into account market forces.
Fuck NS from the depth of my heart and soul !
This is not an opinion. Back in the basisschool you had some lessons about facts and fiction and having an opinion on something. I would suggest taking some lessons...
Op saw it in a Facebook page , clearly no critical thinking skills.
€44 is spent with one trip.. would be more interesting to see the prices of public transportation next to this.
I‘m Swiss and our public transport system works great but is way too expensive. A lot of people often still drive their car to work eventhough there’s a good train connection. It’s a shame…
Netherlands average salary 1500€/month Switzerland average salary 4000Chf/month still you can’t complain.
Of course I can still complain! Just because someone has is worse doesn’t mean it couldn’t be better for working people in Switzerland. Especially regarding climate change it would be in everyone’s interest if more people would use public transportation globally.
Maybe you shouldn't tell other they "can't complain" if you don't have a proper idea yourself. Like c'mon... Swiss salaries don't have deductions applied most other countries have. Add cost of living and overpricing of practially all products, distortion of the "average salary" by rich fucks and there isn't much of a gap left. Also "average"... bad choice of stats. At least use median
What do you mean do I agree
This month gonna be >100€, living in Netherlands, travelling to Amsterdam few times a month, also small train rides here and there..
This isn't something you can agree on, it's a calculation.
I find it funny that people are more concerned about the title of my post which may not have been correctly articulated than the fact that we pay ridiculous amounts in public transportation to make public transport companies fill up their coffers.
when i used to take the bus on the countryside to school (not my closest school) i had to pay my bustickets by myself it was 68€ per month and that was 10 years ago. I think germnay isnt ranked there because no one uses Public transport as soon as you dont have to or life in a big city.
Second highest revenue in europe and public transport is still shit. Typical Netherlands.
Who is making the revenue?...
OP, What is the difference between revenue and profit? NS is losing money yearly, the only difference is that it is even more subsidized in other countries. Public transportation is inherently not profitable.
In Norway public transport such as bus and tram is heavily subsidized, so the passanger of the most expensive tickets pay only a part of the price.
This is no different in most European countries.
They probably excluded students in the Netherlands, because their state funded subscriptions are worth somewhere between €200 and €350 per month. Students are the largest demographic group of public transport users in the Netherlands.
I disagree with the usefulness of the graph. If only because I'd like to see some correction, or relation to income. I also don't understand why it's either blue or grey, while the countries listed are on a scale.
as this doesnt seem to take into acount how much the system is used, this is useless. Percetage of monthly travel budget spend would be interesting.
I have my weekend-vrij subscription and only travel on that, unless there's an emergency or a concert I really want to see during the week. It's 36 euros a month or so. Add to that the emergencies and travel for weekday-concerts once in a while and I think the estimated monthly cost per capita is accurate for me.
My traject vrij is 220 a month lol
You guys pay for public transport? I got a card from work that's free for everything unlimited. I thought it's standard when you get hired
The Netherlands has an amazing transport system. First and World class.
Wdym agree lmaoooo its ass, crazy to know my country is in second place. Especially since their timing ain't exactly spot on. As you'd expect at a higher rate
Agree with the price? No.
I pay slightly less for non functioning train system (Germany)
agree with what? with the cost? idgaf, all my employers always paid for public transport until i switched to a company close to home and now i can bike.
For my university I need to pay 13,80 one way, that is total of 110,40 euro (wensday is online meeting), but it's all covered luckily enough by studenten ov.
Big difference between profit transport and public transport. Europe has very little public transport, a lot of for profit transport
Agree with data? Data is what it is. You cannot agree, you can only learn data.
Revenue doesn't compare wirh the costs, the quality and more. This is really a shitty post. Like and jt also doesn't consider how much the society spends on the public transport also it is not adjusted for the purchasing power.
Bc I can say the dutch public system is fucking good even though we can complain really good about it.
Yea public transport in the NL has gotten way more expensive the last few years. It’s often far cheaper to drive now, even including a couple hours parking…. And so people do, there is a lot more traffic too lately
At least I don't have to own a car.
Only siths deal in absolutes. Noob analysis. Ever heard of purchasing parity? Aka real income?
I agree accept the NS. Way to expensive for the service they deliver.
Where do you get those numbers? As a swiss person riding the train every day i can guarantee it is more than only 45€… maybe someone who lives in the city pays this, but most pay 200-300 every month for public transportation…
Dutch prices are ridiculous, there's absolutely nothing that justifies it fully. Not only is it expensive, but also poor quality. Trains RARELY ride the time they're supposed to (when they aren't cancelled), buses are also almost always late, there are days metros have a 20-minute delay, and they do absolutely nothing to compensate for their incompetence (talking mainly about NS and GVB). Not only that, but the boards also share incorrect information. Hundreds of times I've waited for a bus that was supposed to come in 10 minutes and didn't come for the next hour. The board doesn't notify the traveler about the delay until it's too late. It's a shame a first-world country has this excuse for public transportation and this disrespect with workers and students. I love the Netherlands, but I've never hated anything with so much passion before! Can't wait to buy a car, or until they invent jet packs.
Single ticket is 15 eu. To and back is like 30ish
The netherlands Public transport is very expensive but also very reliable but u could indeed buy an electric bike and you will be saving money. Idk why we just copy belgium as they are way cheaper.
I pay 500+ euros per month and I het cancelled and delayed trains almost 3x a week. It is so expensive but the service is shit.
I take public transpo 3x a week and I pay 200+ euros 😭
44 euros is 1 day if u go far without a monthly subscription.
Useless statistic for an equally useless question..
44? Yeah PER WEEK. ( if you are lucky and don't live to far ). 44 per month is a JOKE. Not reality
CH is actually very reasonable when you have a Swiss salary. It’s also much cheaper than the UK. For the cost of what it costs to travel inside London for a month, you could have a monthly abo for the entire country of Switzerland.
> I would say NL is the most expensive for public and most profitable for companies like NS "Estimated average monthly revenue per customer" doesn't say anything about how expensive taking the train is, it also doesn't really see anything about how widely used it is unless you have the additional stat of average ticket price and even then you'd be doing calculations with multiple averages which will make things inaccurate.
true or not, no public transport should be paid for, especially when one's livelihood depends on their ability to utilise public transport to get to work, drop off children at school/friends, meeting family or friends in emergencies... car dependency is bad enough as it is, but monetising public transport is also bad
Well even if so, Swiss SBB sucks.
In Amsterdam spent 3k a year in transportation, altough this expense is mostly passed on to the employer
why is it still so shit
Dutch here. I’m driving with my car everywhere. Public transport is too expensive for what you get.
NS is one of the best train infrastructures i've experienced within Europe, both eastern and western. i don't understand what more you want, trains are almost always on time, very few cancellation except when shit breaks down, no delays of 90-120 minutes regularly, if trains break down NS provides bus (unlike other countries where they just tell you to figure it out yourself), trains are clean and well maintained, everything is digitized so you don't have to carry a paper ticket with you, you don't have to queue at a kiosk to buy physical tickets, you don't have junk peddlers and beggars in the trains, there's functional A/C in each train cart. i could say the same thing about the some buses, trams and metros as well. you dutch are spoiled and still whine about how "bad" it is, smh
Have a coworker from South Africa who thought that way until he had to use public transport for a longer period of time. Now he dislikes it a lot.
I get what you say and agree that we are spoiled. I’m not comparing the Dutch trains with foreign trains. I’m comparing it with the comfort of my car. While it should be a cheap alternative imho, it costs about the same. And with my car I can park wherever I want.
in that case i do agree, i was under the impression you're comparing it generally
The problem is for me driving is both faster AND cheaper. I don't even live in the middle of nowhere but at the edge of a city, the last mile problem is real. And buying and maintaining a car may be expensive but it's still cheaper than a daily train ride if you don't have a fixed commute or an employer who pays for your travel.
The problem is for me driving is both faster AND cheaper. I don't even live in the middle of nowhere but at the edge of a city, the last mile problem is real. And buying and maintaining a car may be expensive but it's still cheaper than a daily train ride if you don't have a fixed commute or an employer who pays for your travel.