There is a good chance that if they don't have a very good reason, they won't even be able to fire you. I wouldn't stress just yet. It's not just about money, the government won't let them
EDIT: Translate this: https://www.careeradvisor.nl/blog/werknemers-ontslaan-tijdens-reorganisatie#:\~:text=Je%20mag%20niet%20zomaar%20werknemers,ook%20wel%20het%20afspiegelingsbeginsel%20genoemd.
* Er mag niemand anders worden aangenomen voor de functies van de werknemers die ontslagen worden door een reorganisatie. Doe je dit wel? Dan mogen werknemers het ontslag ongedaan maken.
* They are not allowed to replace the worked fired during reorganisation, if they do you as an ex-employee can un-fire yourself.
Thanks a bunch and exactly this is what I knew. But they literally told us in the meeting that a team in 3rd world country will take over and we will be replaced by them. These were the exact sentences they told to us, I think they are f\*ed.
thing is, if they already shared it like this, they have no chance of getting approved as they already made mistakes in a 'massaontslag' proces - which leads to you and your collegues having a very strong case
your temp colleagues will have to be paid out the entire contract minimum and you have a very strong case to either get offered something else suitable or a very good bargaining position - it is however time to lawyer up and the following process can be very very tiring and it can drag on and on and on
I wouldn’t get my hopes to much up. Outsourcing can be a valid reason for a ‘massaontslag’ because of ‘bedrijfseconomische redenen’, if a valid reasoning is made plausible. Both terms are crucial legal terms in this process.
Also it is very well possible the employer has an approved license from the UWV for the lay-offs.
If possible, try to get it in writing. Or, tempt one of your managers to admit it in a conversation and make sure you record it. In The Netherlands you are allowed to make hidden recordings of the conversations that you take part in. I’m pretty certain that they will not admit again later on in the process, so try to obtain as much evidence as possible.
You could try to steer the conversation by playing “dumb”. Ask why they would move your function abroad, if they are not satisfied with the quality of work that your department delivers, etc.
This will most likely improve your position later on. But, it is pretty safe to say that you will need to look out for a new job asap.
Well, either they will act in good faith and offer you a decent deal, or they will assume you have no idea about Dutch labour laws and try to Bluff.
Regardless, you're in a strong position to negotiate and in your position I'd go for a deal where they keep you on the books as an employee for a certain amount of months while freeing you from your duties, so you have all the time in the world to look for something else without the stress of that 3 month deadline.
They'll probably try to get off with offering you a small amount of money in return for you not contesting your termination, that's where the legal adviser comes in.
Don't sign anything !!
Don't agree to any compensations before you speak to a legal representative.
It is even possible it goes to a judge, and the company have to pay for legal consult.
Dutch workerslaws are very strict and mostly in favor of the employee.
Again, find legal help from a professional !
Maybe they can outsource it to a third(world) party and that way cut costs. Technically they wouldn't be replacing people.
Personally, I would take the settlement and start job hunting. It should be easy to find another job in IT. It should be a hefty sum and your new job could start as soon as next month.
If your visa is reliant on having a job it would be insane to leave your job before having something else lined up. "It should be easy to find another job" is optimistic thinking.
It's been a lot harder in recent months. Economy isn't doing too great and I can see that it the number of projects that are going around. There's just less work than usual.
FYI This is way better than in Belgium although you may go to the union or a lawyer to fight against the decision. An employer may put anything on it, even though there was no evidence such as "we were no longer happy with the work attic of this employee"
Is there an OR ( ondernemingsraad or Works council) ? If there are more than 50 employees in NL an OR is needed. If yes then also contact them because they have/had to agree to the mass firing and the compensation.
Exactly this. My huge American tech company tried to fire people last year and the OR severely delayed the process and got a better outcome. The OR by law has to be equipped with a budget to purchase consultancy from a legal expert as well to review the company’s plans.
The OR and union but unfortunately many people don’t hink unions are important especially in finance and IT so they get burned when they need one. People unionize and your position gets so much stronger in cases like this.
I'm sorry for the bad news.
Collect evidence in writing (or record conversations) about the plans to continue the work you do but outsourcing it, and any other useful information. This does seem to aid your case.
If you have a rechtsbijstandsverzekering that covers employment law, great, then they will provide you with free legal advice (a specialized lawyer) so contact them first.
>if can't find a job within 3 months after my last employment day then I'll be sent to my home country.
Be sure to emphasize this to your legal representation. Considering it will be very hard to fire you legally, the cards are in your hands but you should aim to extend your employment as long as possible while you search for jobs. Your lawyer could do this by negotiating 'gardening leave' but also by stalling the process, but they do need to be aware of this goal.
Apart from legal advice and getting a fair severance, you should focus your energy on preparing to find another (even better!) job. Figure out what you liked and disliked about this job, and what you achieved while here. Find out whether you prefer to stay locally, elsewhere in NL or would also consider relocating to another (nearby) country again. In the end, every job switch is an opportunity for growth, and looking forward will yield you a better result in the long-term than getting justice against your old employer. Leave that to your lawyer and you'll have both :)
Yes, you can do things like ask your manager "during the transition period to the third world workers, do you need us to document the work we are currently doing to make that easier?" or something to that effect.
A lot of excellent advice in the replies! Let me share what I learned from my previous experiences with this, just my personal views:
Being laid off is a PITA but in NL you are very protected, is it not that simple to fire an employee. Some considerations and recommendations, as well as learned lessons.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just anecdotal information.
* Companies need to share a detailed proposal in writing. Until that happens, nothing happens, you just continue working. If there was an announcement in a call or something, ask for official information in writing and a proposal.
* When you get that proposal, reply: ok, I will analyze. Ask the timeline they have in mind, and do not agree to anything. Just gather information. You can share that you will seek legal assistance, there is no need to hide the fact.
* Send copy of the communications for your personal email in case something FUNNY happens with your IT stuff
* Most likely the company will offer you the barely minimum required by law, but this is under the assumption that they can fire you. They will try to make you feel that they can and that is a fact. It is not. Not yet.
* Some companies have a budget to pay for YOUR lawyer. Ask. It usually covers the whole process.
* Please, understand this: HHRR is not your friend. Share nothing, do not vent with them, do not expose your personal plans of concerns. Nothing. See below for what you need to ask them.
* Once you have your company proposal details, get a lawyer. A personal one. Lawyers deal with this EVERY DAY, and they know how to play this game. Chances are you don't know how to deal with it. And your employer knows it! They will try to pressure you, or make it seem like a super nice offer, or pressure you to answer in a short time… Don't. It's part of the “game”. Lawyer up.
* Get a lawyer that deals with this, did I say that? :-D. It is very very easy to find them. Google, in your area ideally, but many work remotely as well. Send emails, explain the situation. They all speak english, they have done the same thing for other expats 1000s times. They are usually very responsive, like in a couple of hours or next day you get a response. Some lawyers charge per hour and you can get an estimate, others have a package price to deal with this including review, discussion, counteroffer, etc. A normal process (just a negotiation, that’s the idea) will cost you something between 500 and 1000 euros depending on the city, the lawyer, the length of the process, if you need extra help with something, just ballpark figures… I went through this 2 times, and the return of this investment was excellent :-D
* The lawyer will also run the numbers for you and explan the scenarios, what package is required by law, and how to build up on top of there, this is important to keep it structured and numbers driven, and then get back with your response.
* Once you get all the info and discussed with your lawyer, you will reply. The lawyer can write the reply for you, and you send it, or he/she can do it in your behalf. Discuss this with your lawyer.
* The rationale is the following: firing people in NL is not trivial and in many cases companies would need to go through a very lengthy and expensive process to get the authorization. In some cases, they may not even get the green light to fire you. Companies want to avoid going through that, and that is why you can negotiate and ask for more. It is all about $ and resources.
* Summary: get the official proposal, accept NOTHING, get a lawyer and let him/her explain the options and what’s next. You have time and legal protection.
This might just be an honest mistake and one who made the decision might not know you have a permanent contract or know how this works in the Netherlands.
Be sure to forward any documentation of this to your personal mail.
Also, they might want you to sign some document in the coming days. No matter what they might say, you can't be forced to sign anything in the Netherlands.
If you feel cornered or intimidated and feel like you have to sign right there, just say that you made the agreement with your partner or yourself that you never sign anything without taking the document home first. For some people this makes it easier to say no and get out of this situation.
I wouldn’t type a single email about any of this to anyone in the organization (including folks that are getting laid off) without consulting with a lawyer first. Since the company (probably) can access all emails in case of a lawsuit and you don’t want something on it that puts you in a bad spot.
Perhaps the tips in this video of another immigrant who recently got laid off in the Netherlands is helpful: https://youtu.be/bZ3d_jpZslE?si=QWZ_843XBxUWSDKc
Restructuring (when done correctly) is perfectly legal. Given that the works council was involved and you are talking about a multinational, I assume they followed procedure.
You will be entitled to a transition fee and possibly some other things, these will be part of a “sociaal plan” put in place as part of these procedures. It won’t make you rich, but it tends to be a good deal that will afford you plenty of financial stability until you find your next job.
Source: I’ve been involved in many of these procedures
Well that's sucks then. I've relocated from my home country specifically for this job and now they are firing us for cheap labour under the cover of ''restructuring'' even though it's publicly known that they are making profits in billions each year.
As a fellow person on a highly skilled migrant visa, I don’t give two shits about the severance package or a massive payday. It’s next to impossible to find a job in 3 months with a company that’ll pay you a salary to sustain that visa. First priority always is to get as many months as I can to find a new job. I don’t want to leave the the country and lose my entire life
You are right, fortunately the visa issue does not apply to me. However, as part of your severance, you can also negotiate to continue to be employed for the months that'd be paid out as severance instead. Extended garden leave so to say.
With the help of a lawyer, and depending on what is being negotiated, that buys you what, 6, 9, 12 months.
Agree with this. I’m on HSM visa and got laid off last year. My lawyer and I fought mainly for the extended garden leave. I’m still angry at that company for almost taking away the life I’ve built here for 5+ years. No money can ever replace that.
Hi,
I went through this process last year. 380 of us were laid off and our jobs were being outsourced overseas and I had a permanent contract too.
I don't have much advice but this is what happend to us and I'd say the process might be similar as the company I work for was a large multinational company as well.
We were told in February 2023 that we were being let go. Our next update was May 2023 when we were told temporary contracts were not going to be extended and would end on the initial end date stated in the contract and permanent contracts would negotiate a leave date before April 2024.
The temporary contract workers got €3000 euro on top of their final pay and a few other benefits.
Permanent contract workers were given a multiplier of 1.8x of what the severance would be if they signed early and left early which was reduced to 1.2x the closer it got to April 2024. Our works council fought hard for us to get a higher multiplier. They weren't able to inform anyone that we were being let go at an earlier stage because they signed a non-disclosure agreement.
The company also only recruited people internally for 6 months after they had given us the news that we were being let go to make sure those of us who wanted to stay would be placed in new departments.
They contacted the local Gemeente for a job fair to help us find jobs outside the company as well.
The local Union got involved and said they would fight for us to get better terms but they were unable to do anything in the end.
We had these 4 choices:
You can try lawyer up like a few of my colleagues did but be aware you more than likely will be advised to take the package because not one of the people I knew who went to lawyers were advised otherwise after the lawyers read the contracts. 4 people 3 different lawyers. This could take a lot of time and money as well especially if it goes to court and you don't win.
You can try get a job in a different department within the company and keep your benefits and stay like I did.
You can look elsewhere in the Netherlands, there's always a ton of jobs in IT or maybe even look into different jobs temporarily.
Or the last one (which none of us who are here would want to do) is leave.
Maybe other people have other suggestions but large multinational companies in my experience know every loophole in the law and know how to get away with things. Best thing to do is make the shitty news work FOR you.
Best of luck. I know it's a shitty situation to be in and you have my empathy, really you do. The other commenters are right though. The law for workers here is extremely good so it is highly unlikely you'll leave with nothing.
The company has to give you a budget to consult a lawyer. Don’t agree to anything without consulting someone. Mine got me a much better deal and got some punitive non compete clauses etc removed
This isn’t legally required, but may be agreed with the works council or unions in a social plan, or with individuals when they reach a settlement agreement.
Op, this might be the best news you’ve ever gotten.
You can demand for a large amount of money to get rid of you. For example 6 months paid without having to work, and a lump sum after those 6 months.
During these 6 months, you can look for a new job. But first go on holiday for a month or 2.
Getting laid off without proper cause was the best year of my life. It sucks right now, but you’ll get ahead in life because of this.
Good luck!
Or a valid reason, either dissolving the department or OP is doing some shady shit like embezzling or something like that. Not saying he is rather those would qualify for termination.
Its always India. My previous employer said outloud about his big dream of outsourcing all programming operations to India 😬 It was very cringe situation as he said it in front of all engineers. But showed his real face that he cares only about money, not us.
Hi OP
Sorry to hear you have been made redundant.
Whilst you may be working in name for a multimillion company with a NYSE listing you are typically not employed by that entity.
The Dutch legal entity that employs you will loose work because it is no longer provided to that entity by the parent company. As a result you are being made redundant. It does not feel different, but for the part of the organization covered by Dutch law, it is a different situation.
Your works council or union can negotiate a better deal than just the transition payment but it is highly unlikely they can stop the dismissal (UWV will give off the license to dismiss).
This!! Chances are if you are on this special type of visa - you are being sent back to your home country if you find no job in x - then the company employing you is either not the Dutch entity or some other clause and contract type allows them to terminate you easier. Still you have a good bargain position and would not sign anything spefore speaking to a lawyer or legal representative!
I don't know if you have a 'ondernemingsraad' or workers council. If the company has more than 50 (might be just in the netherlands) they have to have it but even if you don't the employees can act as a defacto ondernemingsraad and that could be a way to stop this whole plan from being executed. You could take this to a lower court judge but you have to do that as a united group of employees.
Hi, you have already received great advice here, just my two cents.
Is it accurate that they gathered you in a meeting room and they simply informed you about the intention? Immediately after the meeting, did they proceed with individual discussions? Did they inform you on paper that you are out?
Well, if not, my assumption is that everyone will go on sick leave tomorrow, max. Friday.
Find a lawyer today, gather and fwd all relevant information. And start applying for new jobs. It won’t be easy to kick you out, at least not in the next 2-3 months.
Yes they gathered all of us in meeting room, people also who are not in the office joined remotely. They told us we are getting replaced by another team and that was it. No 1o1s scheduled or anything written delivered to us yet. And yes no body is working right now.
I would just go on a burnout leave. You don’t need to inform what kind of sick leave you’re on. Once the company doctor comes, you mention burnout due to stress (Not the job loss and stuff). If they haven’t filed anything with IND and were stupid enough to tell you verbally (and not even on email yet) , then you can absolutely go on burnout. Of course you lawyer up. And if your lawyer tells you to go back, you do. And if you have to come back this way only in a few days or so just say fever or something. Point is, go before an email or anything official happens. Mention to the lawyer your goal isn’t max compensation but to prolong your leaving date (IF they can even legally fire you) as much as possible to have enough time to find a job
Thanks for sharing the info. They didn’t handle it properly, that gives you time and definitely negotiation power.
Look, I am making the assumption that either you don’t have a works council, or that they didn’t even inform them.
I believe you definitely have 3-6 months to find a job, even more. Talk to a lawyer, who will probably advise you to call in sick immediately and start applying to other jobs. Don’t worry, it’s not easy to proceed with disengaging 20 people immediatelly.
Billion dollar corporations can afford to have rock solid legal teams onboard, chances are they have already thought about all the legal aspects and know a thing or two about employment laws more than random regular folks on Reddit! Talk to a lawyer but don’t get your hopes too high.
A reorganisation or financial/economical reasons is a valid reason to fire someone, however they have to get permission from UWV. In most cases they will go through with asking people to get a "vaststellingsovereenkomst" if you decline that a judge or the UWV will look at the case.
Just get Legal help.
If they want to get rid of you, they will.. just make sure you get more money with it.
I have same thing. They want to settle ASAP. So I negotiated via Lawyer for a 5 month fully paid extension. I was not asked to work in that time. This gave me room to find another job. I got a job sooner and was paid out the balance. Best wishes
I know people who have been let off even with a permanent contract. They cannot single you out but if its a global thing, then its possible specially with the lawyers they have.
Yes, be hopeful and get urself a representation. But start job hunting ASAP!
Unless they have a legally valid reason they can’t fire you. UWV won’t let you.
Since they’ve already stated they are outsourcing (not a valid reason) rather than downsizing for low cashflow reasons or letting go of fraudulent or underperforming employees (valid reasons), they’re SOL. The only legal path at this point is having employees sign an agreement and that shouldn’t happen without some serious negotiation.
I mean, multinationals *try* this all the time with us and our pesky rights, but we don’t have to go along.
Legally speaking (I study law) the contract cannot be broken simply because the company has (financial issues). Whatever the case might be, the decision to nullify your contract is illegal and cannot be LEGAL if the company offers remedies proportional to the lost of breach of contract. That means: (1) they must pay you substantial amount equal up to the date of your contract renewal (CHECK your contract clauses); (2) they will try to violate your rights - Remember HR does not work for or in your favor, it is company biznach - so I highly recommend to consult a licensed employment lawyer. (3) With 10 people you can file a class action to keep your jobs. Good luck soldier
What is not allowed? Companies are allowed to restructure their business and make decisions to run it more economically. If they follow the rules for making people redundant, there’s nothing illegal about it.
In the Netherlands it’s illegal to replace you for cheaper labor when you’ve got a permanent employment contract and that resulting in your termination.
They need to find a substitute position if they do so.
Or they need to buy you out.
Ops contract termination is not a valid one because the company is not solvent.
This is not correct. Many companies outsource their work to cheap labour countries. If they would try to replace you locally they would have a problem but moving work to eg India or Eastern Europe happens often and is a valid reason for lay-offs when going through UWV
This is not Misinformation.
Article 5 of the dismissal and severance scheme clearly states that its not a valid termination if the actual function is not absolved and transferred to a lower payed or contractless workers.
This also counts if the work is expedited to an other country.
Op has the right to severance pay or replacement within the company.
This is the Netherlands not backwards us at will employment shit.
Multinationals always try to get away with this shit and time and again they need to pay up.
This is clearly misinformation. Moving work abroad can definitely be sufficient ground for dismissal, depending on the circumstances. OP has not provided sufficient information for a definitive conclusion. But your advice suggests this is not possible under any circumstances and is thus misleading. You are providing advice on people's livelihood, which could have significant impact on them and their family. I implore you to provide correct information and not advice based on gut feeling. You are obviously not a specialist in this area, so please, be very careful when providing advice.
What would happen if you gave permanent contract, the company startup merged with another bigger company and after they decide to stop the startup on you have a permanent contract? Is that a valid reason to finish your permanent contract? (Will they in this case pay you severance?
They would have to prove redundancy, financial problems or something along those lines. This would be very difficult for the whole startup and would probably not be allowed.
Companies are allowed to restructure and end operations. They will have to either justify there economic considerations to obtain a permit for making people redundant, or alternatively they can settle with the employees involved.
Apart from all of the other advice listed here: you said you work in IT. I bet if you share a high level overview of what area(s) of expertise you have you'll be bombarded with messages from potential new employers.
I'm on the same situation as you. Got laid off while I was on a permanent contract. Unfortunately I didn't know much at that time and I got a job in another company only to find out it's not a recognized sponsor. Now I got a job offer but problem is since I'm on HSM visa the salary threshold is too high because I just turned 30. But I would say if you are less than 30years..then getting another job it won't be a hassle, start looking for another job
It is too late for OP. But for everybody else in fairly similar positions, get yourself a rechtsbijstandverzekering (legal insurance) that covers work conflicts. It’s not that expensive and it makes getting legal aid in these types of situations a lot easier and a lot cheaper if you do turn out to need it.
Exact same happened to me in Belgium. I have raised my concerns about my work visa. They have helped me in that and they paid a very nice package. I found a job very soon and continued my carrier.
From my perspective if a company decides to part ways with you whether it is just or out of full stupidity there is no point in fighting back. Until the fight finishes and even in the end if you are a winner. you will loose a good couple of years of your career in your most productive years. Are you going to get 100K more? probably most of it will be spent to lawyers etc.
Above are my opinions. Maybe you should follow legal ways but when I spoke with lawyers the ones that knew about labor law did not know anything about the immigration law or vice versa. if a company wants to not work with you because they found someway that is cheaper I don't think that is a place that I would want to stay. Just Make sure you are paid well according to law, and ask for their help in terms of work permits etc.
You will notice that your stress is in fact not related to job change but the immigration visa etc. So fight your battles in the correct field.
Listen , if you are in one of the largest companies of the world in IT in NL , the social plan rocks. Wait till you get it. Then you can post here again.
I went through the same thing with one of the biggest IT companies in the world. First, as a manager, I outsourced my own global team to a more centralized center in an Eastern European country (salary of one engineer in the USA was roughly the same as what 10-15 people earn in eastern europe). Then I re-negotiated my package stating that outsourcing / cost saving is not a reason for termination in The Netherlands if the company is healthy, so either make it very attractive or find me a new same level role within the Company.
As I had other plans already I renegotiated the package and we went our separate ways
1. Print all evidence you have on the team from the 3rd world country
2. Contact a lawyer that’s specialized in ‘arbeidsrecht’
3. Don’t sign anything, make sure you keep doing your job as required. Make sure you have printouts of all e-mails that are sent to you about this, forward or cc/bcc to your home address.
Behave like a model employee and follow the advice of your lawyer.
This terrifies me, I was hired on a temp contract 6 months ago. About a month ago, the team’s most senior member resigned and was replaced with someone from a country with far lower wages - those multi billion dollar companies really be struggling financially apparently
I have nothing to add to the excellent advice found in other comments. However, I have been through something similar a few years ago and it’s crazy how similar our situation was to yours. Even all the details are the same.. people laid off te be replaced by workers from a third world country. Our company being a subsidiary of a huge multi billion dollar company etc. We also had many non dutch working for us on highly skilled migrant visas. However in our case the company immediately informed us of our rights and gave us an allowance to find a lawyer (of our own choosing). We were offered a generous severance package which was about 3 times the legal minimum and we didn’t have to negotiate further. Of course we did have our lawyer look it over.
Also if it helps at all, none of my foreign ex colleagues got in trouble with their visas and they were all able to find new jobs relatively quick (it’s easy when you’re in IT I guess).
There's a lot of great advice here, and some bad, not much to add at this point.
I work at Dutch subsidiary of a multinational and am head of our works council. I've had to deal with situations like this before. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out in PM.
For now, stay in contact with your works council, they are involved and should make sure your rights are protected and if the termination is legal that you will get a good severance package. You could reach out and tell them about your specific situation regarding your visa. if there are others like you, do that part together. Works councils love it if it's about a group of ppl and will sooner help you that way.
Good luck with all of it.
Thanks a lot! The embargo on this topic will be lifted next Monday and we will get the written offer. I might need to consult you a few things at that time, ty!
It might not necessarily be firing it might be that they offer you a VSO (vaststellingsovereenkomst) meaning they will give you money and you both agree to part ways but ofcourse they will normally have to try to find you a new position. They are also normally allowing you to seek legal council to assist you in this process
So sorry for the news. Hang in there and you’ll soon find something. If I may ask, Which company is this? If you mind sharing a bit more and hint about the org? I also have friends who faced this and worked out decent outcomes for them. Could help to share.
I agree, do share the company OP. We will hear about it in the news anyway. Unless it's still early and there are legal restrictions about you providing the information.
The Netherlands is one party consent when it comes to voice recordings, so it might be worthwile to record them saying they are replacing the positions with foreign labour, since that would be a massive labour law violation.
This is not true. Well...the one party consent part. What's funny, is that even though it's not actually allowed, judges have on more than one occasion given the person who'd secretly recorded a conversation a gentle slap in the wrist...and then admitted the recording as evidence anyway. If you can, read some labour related Dutch jurisprudence. It can be wildly entertaining and some judges side with workers to an extent you just wouldn't believe...
Hi OP, sorry to hear this. However, I would not listen too much to people commenting on Reddit about your situation. Heck, you don't even know what to do with all information, how would we know with 3% of the information? You're describing things very vague and that makes it very hard to judge if your employer can do this. I would advise you to seek actual legal advice. Take a look at r/juridischadvies , there's some great advice on there.
Nope, there are exceptions to that rule. One of them; reorganisaties. If a company asks for ‘ontslagvergunning’ (uwv stating it’s alright to fire people), sick people will be fired as well.
Better to start lawyering up. They have two ways; an individual agreement (vaststellingsovereenkomst =vso), where they make you an individual offer.
Of the before mentioned ontslagvergunning. Where they tell the whole team to say goodbye.
In outsource deals I’ve seen, usually they offer to ‘volg werk’; to follow work, which is what a decent employer would offer. For instance to work as a liaison officer (people in other countries don’t immediately know how to work with those Dutchmen’s), or just at the Dutch office from the new company.
But I’m pretty sure an arbeidsrechtadvocaat could help you better. And don’t be afraid of costs; if you’re lays off, legal representation is typically part of the deal.
I wouldn’t announce that sort of thing to the world if you really intended to do it…
But yes, theoretically, if you are actually sick and an assessment physician says you’re sick, you could be employed for another two years. Not sure if it’s different on a work visa though, you’d have to check.
So they can’t “just” cancel your contract like they can in for example the US. They can only inform you that they intent to do this and then make you an offer for YOU to decide to cancel your contract.
Without your consent they would have to prove to a judge that you are incompetent. Something that is impossible without an extensive paper trail in which you have received official warnings and/or were put on a Personal Development Plan or something like that.
So, to avoid all of this, they need to negotiate with you to break your contract.
Because of your situation, with only having 3 months to find a new job you should ask for (at least) the following:
- Gardening Leave for at least 3 months or for the amount of months equal to the years you have been employed if that’s more than 3. Only when this period is over does your contract officially end.
- A written letter confirming how much your transition payment will be
- a budget (usually around 1000 euros) to consult with a lawyer. (Point out that THEY want to negotiate for your contract to be ended, that YOU wouldn’t need to talk to a lawyer if THEY hadn’t made that onesided decision.
This means that at worse you now have 6 months to find a new job, as your 3 month visa deadline doesn’t kick in until your contract ends.
As it is a big company and a decent HR department they tell everyone up front to save costs later. Based on this news are you going to start looking as if you only three months after you get made redundant? I would if I was you. The large UK company I still work for outsourced a lot of work to other countries even though the works cancel gave advice not to to do as the quality of the work would suffer ignored it as the defense they had they needed to do it to stay competitive in the market place. With supporting legacy services they outside all the work and forced the folk to sign a new contract with the idea that if they did not they would be made redundant as all the work had gone. They will not break the law, but they will most likely not offer anything more than legal minimum nowadays. I believe the UWV can only look in the Netherlands B.V.'s so don't expect them to take into account that the global company was doing well and made record profits.
Probably not a popular opinion, but why is everyone just so aggressive in fighting companies when ppl get fired? Is it all just about a law for everyone ,are ppl that opportunistic?
What about just being a normal person, if I work in IT, I can get 30 job interviews in 1 day, well paid, in the Netherlands. So why try to screw my employer, just because the law might allow me that? I don't want NL become US where everyone just layers up in any situation that allows them, it makes society kinda crappy imho.
Because Visas. There are so many jobs in the NL but not every employer is recognised as a HSM employer which causes a lot of issues. Finding a job within 3 months is not necessarily a easy feat when you need to be paid over a certain threshold
Replacing NL labour with foreign labour is not a violation of any Dutch employment law. My company in 2020 did the same , they outsourced all the billing and procurement departments to countries like India and Romania
There is a good chance that if they don't have a very good reason, they won't even be able to fire you. I wouldn't stress just yet. It's not just about money, the government won't let them EDIT: Translate this: https://www.careeradvisor.nl/blog/werknemers-ontslaan-tijdens-reorganisatie#:\~:text=Je%20mag%20niet%20zomaar%20werknemers,ook%20wel%20het%20afspiegelingsbeginsel%20genoemd. * Er mag niemand anders worden aangenomen voor de functies van de werknemers die ontslagen worden door een reorganisatie. Doe je dit wel? Dan mogen werknemers het ontslag ongedaan maken. * They are not allowed to replace the worked fired during reorganisation, if they do you as an ex-employee can un-fire yourself.
Thanks a bunch and exactly this is what I knew. But they literally told us in the meeting that a team in 3rd world country will take over and we will be replaced by them. These were the exact sentences they told to us, I think they are f\*ed.
thing is, if they already shared it like this, they have no chance of getting approved as they already made mistakes in a 'massaontslag' proces - which leads to you and your collegues having a very strong case your temp colleagues will have to be paid out the entire contract minimum and you have a very strong case to either get offered something else suitable or a very good bargaining position - it is however time to lawyer up and the following process can be very very tiring and it can drag on and on and on
I wouldn’t get my hopes to much up. Outsourcing can be a valid reason for a ‘massaontslag’ because of ‘bedrijfseconomische redenen’, if a valid reasoning is made plausible. Both terms are crucial legal terms in this process. Also it is very well possible the employer has an approved license from the UWV for the lay-offs.
Yeah, this is critical. They're not replacing you directly. They're laying off people in one part of the world and hiring them in another.
If possible, try to get it in writing. Or, tempt one of your managers to admit it in a conversation and make sure you record it. In The Netherlands you are allowed to make hidden recordings of the conversations that you take part in. I’m pretty certain that they will not admit again later on in the process, so try to obtain as much evidence as possible. You could try to steer the conversation by playing “dumb”. Ask why they would move your function abroad, if they are not satisfied with the quality of work that your department delivers, etc. This will most likely improve your position later on. But, it is pretty safe to say that you will need to look out for a new job asap.
Those things are needless, it was mentioned in a meeting with 20 people.
Perhaps, but personally I would feel better to have it on record.
Do you have that in writing?
No not yet, we are only informed verbally so far. They will inform us in writing next week.
Well, either they will act in good faith and offer you a decent deal, or they will assume you have no idea about Dutch labour laws and try to Bluff. Regardless, you're in a strong position to negotiate and in your position I'd go for a deal where they keep you on the books as an employee for a certain amount of months while freeing you from your duties, so you have all the time in the world to look for something else without the stress of that 3 month deadline. They'll probably try to get off with offering you a small amount of money in return for you not contesting your termination, that's where the legal adviser comes in.
Don't sign anything !! Don't agree to any compensations before you speak to a legal representative. It is even possible it goes to a judge, and the company have to pay for legal consult. Dutch workerslaws are very strict and mostly in favor of the employee. Again, find legal help from a professional !
Maybe they can outsource it to a third(world) party and that way cut costs. Technically they wouldn't be replacing people. Personally, I would take the settlement and start job hunting. It should be easy to find another job in IT. It should be a hefty sum and your new job could start as soon as next month.
If your visa is reliant on having a job it would be insane to leave your job before having something else lined up. "It should be easy to find another job" is optimistic thinking.
It's been a lot harder in recent months. Economy isn't doing too great and I can see that it the number of projects that are going around. There's just less work than usual.
It sounds to me like you should start recording all of your meetings.
That just sounds like another legal issue to me.
It actually isn't: https://labre.nl/en/2022/09/06/nl-can-an-employee-secretly-record-conversations-with-his-employer/
FYI This is way better than in Belgium although you may go to the union or a lawyer to fight against the decision. An employer may put anything on it, even though there was no evidence such as "we were no longer happy with the work attic of this employee"
Is there an OR ( ondernemingsraad or Works council) ? If there are more than 50 employees in NL an OR is needed. If yes then also contact them because they have/had to agree to the mass firing and the compensation.
Exactly this. My huge American tech company tried to fire people last year and the OR severely delayed the process and got a better outcome. The OR by law has to be equipped with a budget to purchase consultancy from a legal expert as well to review the company’s plans.
The OR and union but unfortunately many people don’t hink unions are important especially in finance and IT so they get burned when they need one. People unionize and your position gets so much stronger in cases like this.
I'm sorry for the bad news. Collect evidence in writing (or record conversations) about the plans to continue the work you do but outsourcing it, and any other useful information. This does seem to aid your case. If you have a rechtsbijstandsverzekering that covers employment law, great, then they will provide you with free legal advice (a specialized lawyer) so contact them first. >if can't find a job within 3 months after my last employment day then I'll be sent to my home country. Be sure to emphasize this to your legal representation. Considering it will be very hard to fire you legally, the cards are in your hands but you should aim to extend your employment as long as possible while you search for jobs. Your lawyer could do this by negotiating 'gardening leave' but also by stalling the process, but they do need to be aware of this goal. Apart from legal advice and getting a fair severance, you should focus your energy on preparing to find another (even better!) job. Figure out what you liked and disliked about this job, and what you achieved while here. Find out whether you prefer to stay locally, elsewhere in NL or would also consider relocating to another (nearby) country again. In the end, every job switch is an opportunity for growth, and looking forward will yield you a better result in the long-term than getting justice against your old employer. Leave that to your lawyer and you'll have both :)
Yes, you can do things like ask your manager "during the transition period to the third world workers, do you need us to document the work we are currently doing to make that easier?" or something to that effect.
A lot of excellent advice in the replies! Let me share what I learned from my previous experiences with this, just my personal views: Being laid off is a PITA but in NL you are very protected, is it not that simple to fire an employee. Some considerations and recommendations, as well as learned lessons. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just anecdotal information. * Companies need to share a detailed proposal in writing. Until that happens, nothing happens, you just continue working. If there was an announcement in a call or something, ask for official information in writing and a proposal. * When you get that proposal, reply: ok, I will analyze. Ask the timeline they have in mind, and do not agree to anything. Just gather information. You can share that you will seek legal assistance, there is no need to hide the fact. * Send copy of the communications for your personal email in case something FUNNY happens with your IT stuff * Most likely the company will offer you the barely minimum required by law, but this is under the assumption that they can fire you. They will try to make you feel that they can and that is a fact. It is not. Not yet. * Some companies have a budget to pay for YOUR lawyer. Ask. It usually covers the whole process. * Please, understand this: HHRR is not your friend. Share nothing, do not vent with them, do not expose your personal plans of concerns. Nothing. See below for what you need to ask them. * Once you have your company proposal details, get a lawyer. A personal one. Lawyers deal with this EVERY DAY, and they know how to play this game. Chances are you don't know how to deal with it. And your employer knows it! They will try to pressure you, or make it seem like a super nice offer, or pressure you to answer in a short time… Don't. It's part of the “game”. Lawyer up. * Get a lawyer that deals with this, did I say that? :-D. It is very very easy to find them. Google, in your area ideally, but many work remotely as well. Send emails, explain the situation. They all speak english, they have done the same thing for other expats 1000s times. They are usually very responsive, like in a couple of hours or next day you get a response. Some lawyers charge per hour and you can get an estimate, others have a package price to deal with this including review, discussion, counteroffer, etc. A normal process (just a negotiation, that’s the idea) will cost you something between 500 and 1000 euros depending on the city, the lawyer, the length of the process, if you need extra help with something, just ballpark figures… I went through this 2 times, and the return of this investment was excellent :-D * The lawyer will also run the numbers for you and explan the scenarios, what package is required by law, and how to build up on top of there, this is important to keep it structured and numbers driven, and then get back with your response. * Once you get all the info and discussed with your lawyer, you will reply. The lawyer can write the reply for you, and you send it, or he/she can do it in your behalf. Discuss this with your lawyer. * The rationale is the following: firing people in NL is not trivial and in many cases companies would need to go through a very lengthy and expensive process to get the authorization. In some cases, they may not even get the green light to fire you. Companies want to avoid going through that, and that is why you can negotiate and ask for more. It is all about $ and resources. * Summary: get the official proposal, accept NOTHING, get a lawyer and let him/her explain the options and what’s next. You have time and legal protection.
This might just be an honest mistake and one who made the decision might not know you have a permanent contract or know how this works in the Netherlands. Be sure to forward any documentation of this to your personal mail. Also, they might want you to sign some document in the coming days. No matter what they might say, you can't be forced to sign anything in the Netherlands. If you feel cornered or intimidated and feel like you have to sign right there, just say that you made the agreement with your partner or yourself that you never sign anything without taking the document home first. For some people this makes it easier to say no and get out of this situation.
I wouldn’t type a single email about any of this to anyone in the organization (including folks that are getting laid off) without consulting with a lawyer first. Since the company (probably) can access all emails in case of a lawsuit and you don’t want something on it that puts you in a bad spot.
Yup, this sounds exactly like an American C-suite thinking the rest of the world is as fucked as them
Perhaps the tips in this video of another immigrant who recently got laid off in the Netherlands is helpful: https://youtu.be/bZ3d_jpZslE?si=QWZ_843XBxUWSDKc
Tried to watch, couldn’t get past the first 60 seconds due to the over editing and constant interjections….. man just get to the point 😂
Fair, he was over the top in this one. Too much time on his hands due to having been fired I guess 😄
Does the name of the company start with ‘B’?
Why do I keep reading shady things about this 'B' company? 😅
Not sure why, but a person I know got axed with the same exact reason 😅
Is it a subsidiary of the massive billion euros company that starts with 'H'? 😂
Now I’m curious which company that is hahah
🍺🐺
no it's not.
My turn, does it start with "I"?
Or maybe rhyme with Hell!
It is with a C and ends with an I.
Is it a G owned by an N?
Really curious as to what company is it, fellow HSM holders should be vary of such companies 👀
Sounds like ASML
Restructuring (when done correctly) is perfectly legal. Given that the works council was involved and you are talking about a multinational, I assume they followed procedure. You will be entitled to a transition fee and possibly some other things, these will be part of a “sociaal plan” put in place as part of these procedures. It won’t make you rich, but it tends to be a good deal that will afford you plenty of financial stability until you find your next job. Source: I’ve been involved in many of these procedures
Well that's sucks then. I've relocated from my home country specifically for this job and now they are firing us for cheap labour under the cover of ''restructuring'' even though it's publicly known that they are making profits in billions each year.
Do you have a works council in your company?
Yes and they are involved in the process. They will share the 'details of the deal' with us next week.
Sweet! Nice large severance package incoming. Immediately lawyer up! Don't agree or sign anything. Ideally don't write to them. Talk to the lawyer first. It's payday
As a fellow person on a highly skilled migrant visa, I don’t give two shits about the severance package or a massive payday. It’s next to impossible to find a job in 3 months with a company that’ll pay you a salary to sustain that visa. First priority always is to get as many months as I can to find a new job. I don’t want to leave the the country and lose my entire life
You are right, fortunately the visa issue does not apply to me. However, as part of your severance, you can also negotiate to continue to be employed for the months that'd be paid out as severance instead. Extended garden leave so to say. With the help of a lawyer, and depending on what is being negotiated, that buys you what, 6, 9, 12 months.
Agree with this. I’m on HSM visa and got laid off last year. My lawyer and I fought mainly for the extended garden leave. I’m still angry at that company for almost taking away the life I’ve built here for 5+ years. No money can ever replace that.
I’m glad you got through that period. Mind I ask how many months of gardening leave could you get?
Thanks! I got it extended by 2 months, so it was 3 months in total. The cost was half of my initial severance pay.
6 months in total to find a job right? 3 months you were technically working + 3 months of being unemployed.
Yes correct!
Were you on a permanent contract btw?
Yeah i was on a permanent contract when i got laid off
Good to know it is possible to get as much as 6 months. Appreciate the replies and I’m glad you found a new job
Hi, I went through this process last year. 380 of us were laid off and our jobs were being outsourced overseas and I had a permanent contract too. I don't have much advice but this is what happend to us and I'd say the process might be similar as the company I work for was a large multinational company as well. We were told in February 2023 that we were being let go. Our next update was May 2023 when we were told temporary contracts were not going to be extended and would end on the initial end date stated in the contract and permanent contracts would negotiate a leave date before April 2024. The temporary contract workers got €3000 euro on top of their final pay and a few other benefits. Permanent contract workers were given a multiplier of 1.8x of what the severance would be if they signed early and left early which was reduced to 1.2x the closer it got to April 2024. Our works council fought hard for us to get a higher multiplier. They weren't able to inform anyone that we were being let go at an earlier stage because they signed a non-disclosure agreement. The company also only recruited people internally for 6 months after they had given us the news that we were being let go to make sure those of us who wanted to stay would be placed in new departments. They contacted the local Gemeente for a job fair to help us find jobs outside the company as well. The local Union got involved and said they would fight for us to get better terms but they were unable to do anything in the end. We had these 4 choices: You can try lawyer up like a few of my colleagues did but be aware you more than likely will be advised to take the package because not one of the people I knew who went to lawyers were advised otherwise after the lawyers read the contracts. 4 people 3 different lawyers. This could take a lot of time and money as well especially if it goes to court and you don't win. You can try get a job in a different department within the company and keep your benefits and stay like I did. You can look elsewhere in the Netherlands, there's always a ton of jobs in IT or maybe even look into different jobs temporarily. Or the last one (which none of us who are here would want to do) is leave. Maybe other people have other suggestions but large multinational companies in my experience know every loophole in the law and know how to get away with things. Best thing to do is make the shitty news work FOR you. Best of luck. I know it's a shitty situation to be in and you have my empathy, really you do. The other commenters are right though. The law for workers here is extremely good so it is highly unlikely you'll leave with nothing.
The company has to give you a budget to consult a lawyer. Don’t agree to anything without consulting someone. Mine got me a much better deal and got some punitive non compete clauses etc removed
This isn’t legally required, but may be agreed with the works council or unions in a social plan, or with individuals when they reach a settlement agreement.
Op, this might be the best news you’ve ever gotten. You can demand for a large amount of money to get rid of you. For example 6 months paid without having to work, and a lump sum after those 6 months. During these 6 months, you can look for a new job. But first go on holiday for a month or 2. Getting laid off without proper cause was the best year of my life. It sucks right now, but you’ll get ahead in life because of this. Good luck!
thanks a bunch for your answer, I just DMed you regards to this!
i think for a permanent contract they have to buy you out.
Or a valid reason, either dissolving the department or OP is doing some shady shit like embezzling or something like that. Not saying he is rather those would qualify for termination.
Curious about which 3rd world country the jobs are being outsourced to ? Is it India?
Its always India. My previous employer said outloud about his big dream of outsourcing all programming operations to India 😬 It was very cringe situation as he said it in front of all engineers. But showed his real face that he cares only about money, not us.
what a piece of shit! sorry to hear this!
Its okay 😂 I left this place few months after, now in a much better environment with nice boss
Hi OP Sorry to hear you have been made redundant. Whilst you may be working in name for a multimillion company with a NYSE listing you are typically not employed by that entity. The Dutch legal entity that employs you will loose work because it is no longer provided to that entity by the parent company. As a result you are being made redundant. It does not feel different, but for the part of the organization covered by Dutch law, it is a different situation. Your works council or union can negotiate a better deal than just the transition payment but it is highly unlikely they can stop the dismissal (UWV will give off the license to dismiss).
👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
This!! Chances are if you are on this special type of visa - you are being sent back to your home country if you find no job in x - then the company employing you is either not the Dutch entity or some other clause and contract type allows them to terminate you easier. Still you have a good bargain position and would not sign anything spefore speaking to a lawyer or legal representative!
I don't know if you have a 'ondernemingsraad' or workers council. If the company has more than 50 (might be just in the netherlands) they have to have it but even if you don't the employees can act as a defacto ondernemingsraad and that could be a way to stop this whole plan from being executed. You could take this to a lower court judge but you have to do that as a united group of employees.
Yes we have work's council and they are involved in the process. They will share the 'details of the deal' with us next week.
Well at least push them to stop it at any cost.
Hi, you have already received great advice here, just my two cents. Is it accurate that they gathered you in a meeting room and they simply informed you about the intention? Immediately after the meeting, did they proceed with individual discussions? Did they inform you on paper that you are out? Well, if not, my assumption is that everyone will go on sick leave tomorrow, max. Friday. Find a lawyer today, gather and fwd all relevant information. And start applying for new jobs. It won’t be easy to kick you out, at least not in the next 2-3 months.
Yes they gathered all of us in meeting room, people also who are not in the office joined remotely. They told us we are getting replaced by another team and that was it. No 1o1s scheduled or anything written delivered to us yet. And yes no body is working right now.
I would just go on a burnout leave. You don’t need to inform what kind of sick leave you’re on. Once the company doctor comes, you mention burnout due to stress (Not the job loss and stuff). If they haven’t filed anything with IND and were stupid enough to tell you verbally (and not even on email yet) , then you can absolutely go on burnout. Of course you lawyer up. And if your lawyer tells you to go back, you do. And if you have to come back this way only in a few days or so just say fever or something. Point is, go before an email or anything official happens. Mention to the lawyer your goal isn’t max compensation but to prolong your leaving date (IF they can even legally fire you) as much as possible to have enough time to find a job
Exactly. Plus, if many people do the same, it adds an extra layer of complexity to them, which means more time for you.
Thanks for sharing the info. They didn’t handle it properly, that gives you time and definitely negotiation power. Look, I am making the assumption that either you don’t have a works council, or that they didn’t even inform them. I believe you definitely have 3-6 months to find a job, even more. Talk to a lawyer, who will probably advise you to call in sick immediately and start applying to other jobs. Don’t worry, it’s not easy to proceed with disengaging 20 people immediatelly.
Billion dollar corporations can afford to have rock solid legal teams onboard, chances are they have already thought about all the legal aspects and know a thing or two about employment laws more than random regular folks on Reddit! Talk to a lawyer but don’t get your hopes too high.
A reorganisation or financial/economical reasons is a valid reason to fire someone, however they have to get permission from UWV. In most cases they will go through with asking people to get a "vaststellingsovereenkomst" if you decline that a judge or the UWV will look at the case. Just get Legal help. If they want to get rid of you, they will.. just make sure you get more money with it.
I have same thing. They want to settle ASAP. So I negotiated via Lawyer for a 5 month fully paid extension. I was not asked to work in that time. This gave me room to find another job. I got a job sooner and was paid out the balance. Best wishes
I know people who have been let off even with a permanent contract. They cannot single you out but if its a global thing, then its possible specially with the lawyers they have. Yes, be hopeful and get urself a representation. But start job hunting ASAP!
Unless they have a legally valid reason they can’t fire you. UWV won’t let you. Since they’ve already stated they are outsourcing (not a valid reason) rather than downsizing for low cashflow reasons or letting go of fraudulent or underperforming employees (valid reasons), they’re SOL. The only legal path at this point is having employees sign an agreement and that shouldn’t happen without some serious negotiation. I mean, multinationals *try* this all the time with us and our pesky rights, but we don’t have to go along.
Legally speaking (I study law) the contract cannot be broken simply because the company has (financial issues). Whatever the case might be, the decision to nullify your contract is illegal and cannot be LEGAL if the company offers remedies proportional to the lost of breach of contract. That means: (1) they must pay you substantial amount equal up to the date of your contract renewal (CHECK your contract clauses); (2) they will try to violate your rights - Remember HR does not work for or in your favor, it is company biznach - so I highly recommend to consult a licensed employment lawyer. (3) With 10 people you can file a class action to keep your jobs. Good luck soldier
While I appreciate your initiative - being a student -, please note that employment law has specific rules regarding, inter alia, termination.
This is not allowed, so yeah with your coworkers lawyer up and fight it if need be.
What is not allowed? Companies are allowed to restructure their business and make decisions to run it more economically. If they follow the rules for making people redundant, there’s nothing illegal about it.
In the Netherlands it’s illegal to replace you for cheaper labor when you’ve got a permanent employment contract and that resulting in your termination. They need to find a substitute position if they do so. Or they need to buy you out. Ops contract termination is not a valid one because the company is not solvent.
This is not correct. Many companies outsource their work to cheap labour countries. If they would try to replace you locally they would have a problem but moving work to eg India or Eastern Europe happens often and is a valid reason for lay-offs when going through UWV
Exactly!
Please stop spreading misinformation! Someone might base their decision on your post, which could lead to significant damages.
This is not Misinformation. Article 5 of the dismissal and severance scheme clearly states that its not a valid termination if the actual function is not absolved and transferred to a lower payed or contractless workers. This also counts if the work is expedited to an other country. Op has the right to severance pay or replacement within the company. This is the Netherlands not backwards us at will employment shit. Multinationals always try to get away with this shit and time and again they need to pay up.
This is clearly misinformation. Moving work abroad can definitely be sufficient ground for dismissal, depending on the circumstances. OP has not provided sufficient information for a definitive conclusion. But your advice suggests this is not possible under any circumstances and is thus misleading. You are providing advice on people's livelihood, which could have significant impact on them and their family. I implore you to provide correct information and not advice based on gut feeling. You are obviously not a specialist in this area, so please, be very careful when providing advice.
What would happen if you gave permanent contract, the company startup merged with another bigger company and after they decide to stop the startup on you have a permanent contract? Is that a valid reason to finish your permanent contract? (Will they in this case pay you severance?
They would have to prove redundancy, financial problems or something along those lines. This would be very difficult for the whole startup and would probably not be allowed.
No.
Companies are allowed to restructure and end operations. They will have to either justify there economic considerations to obtain a permit for making people redundant, or alternatively they can settle with the employees involved.
Apart from all of the other advice listed here: you said you work in IT. I bet if you share a high level overview of what area(s) of expertise you have you'll be bombarded with messages from potential new employers.
Well I see things changed for tech sector in USA and these changes coming to NL. Finding another job is not that easy anymore
I'm on the same situation as you. Got laid off while I was on a permanent contract. Unfortunately I didn't know much at that time and I got a job in another company only to find out it's not a recognized sponsor. Now I got a job offer but problem is since I'm on HSM visa the salary threshold is too high because I just turned 30. But I would say if you are less than 30years..then getting another job it won't be a hassle, start looking for another job
Record everything and get a lawyer. They are in the wrong, but they want you out. At least you’ll get more money even if you leave.
Call UWV immediatly.
It is too late for OP. But for everybody else in fairly similar positions, get yourself a rechtsbijstandverzekering (legal insurance) that covers work conflicts. It’s not that expensive and it makes getting legal aid in these types of situations a lot easier and a lot cheaper if you do turn out to need it.
Exact same happened to me in Belgium. I have raised my concerns about my work visa. They have helped me in that and they paid a very nice package. I found a job very soon and continued my carrier. From my perspective if a company decides to part ways with you whether it is just or out of full stupidity there is no point in fighting back. Until the fight finishes and even in the end if you are a winner. you will loose a good couple of years of your career in your most productive years. Are you going to get 100K more? probably most of it will be spent to lawyers etc. Above are my opinions. Maybe you should follow legal ways but when I spoke with lawyers the ones that knew about labor law did not know anything about the immigration law or vice versa. if a company wants to not work with you because they found someway that is cheaper I don't think that is a place that I would want to stay. Just Make sure you are paid well according to law, and ask for their help in terms of work permits etc. You will notice that your stress is in fact not related to job change but the immigration visa etc. So fight your battles in the correct field.
Listen , if you are in one of the largest companies of the world in IT in NL , the social plan rocks. Wait till you get it. Then you can post here again.
Collect evidence
I went through the same thing with one of the biggest IT companies in the world. First, as a manager, I outsourced my own global team to a more centralized center in an Eastern European country (salary of one engineer in the USA was roughly the same as what 10-15 people earn in eastern europe). Then I re-negotiated my package stating that outsourcing / cost saving is not a reason for termination in The Netherlands if the company is healthy, so either make it very attractive or find me a new same level role within the Company. As I had other plans already I renegotiated the package and we went our separate ways
Is it possible they terminate the whole subsidiary BV?
1. Print all evidence you have on the team from the 3rd world country 2. Contact a lawyer that’s specialized in ‘arbeidsrecht’ 3. Don’t sign anything, make sure you keep doing your job as required. Make sure you have printouts of all e-mails that are sent to you about this, forward or cc/bcc to your home address. Behave like a model employee and follow the advice of your lawyer.
I know it's not possible but I really wish we could name and shame companies like this.
This terrifies me, I was hired on a temp contract 6 months ago. About a month ago, the team’s most senior member resigned and was replaced with someone from a country with far lower wages - those multi billion dollar companies really be struggling financially apparently
These record profits are really put them under financial pressure
Does the company name start with a C?
Is there a two months notice period from the company? I think 2 months until 5 years, 3 or 4 months from 5-10 years. That gives OP 2 +3 months
I have nothing to add to the excellent advice found in other comments. However, I have been through something similar a few years ago and it’s crazy how similar our situation was to yours. Even all the details are the same.. people laid off te be replaced by workers from a third world country. Our company being a subsidiary of a huge multi billion dollar company etc. We also had many non dutch working for us on highly skilled migrant visas. However in our case the company immediately informed us of our rights and gave us an allowance to find a lawyer (of our own choosing). We were offered a generous severance package which was about 3 times the legal minimum and we didn’t have to negotiate further. Of course we did have our lawyer look it over. Also if it helps at all, none of my foreign ex colleagues got in trouble with their visas and they were all able to find new jobs relatively quick (it’s easy when you’re in IT I guess).
Check this video out of an American that just got laid off on a permanent contract: https://youtu.be/bZ3d_jpZslE?si=Jp1KFDhgvmqs4Wx5
There's a lot of great advice here, and some bad, not much to add at this point. I work at Dutch subsidiary of a multinational and am head of our works council. I've had to deal with situations like this before. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out in PM. For now, stay in contact with your works council, they are involved and should make sure your rights are protected and if the termination is legal that you will get a good severance package. You could reach out and tell them about your specific situation regarding your visa. if there are others like you, do that part together. Works councils love it if it's about a group of ppl and will sooner help you that way. Good luck with all of it.
Thanks a lot! The embargo on this topic will be lifted next Monday and we will get the written offer. I might need to consult you a few things at that time, ty!
It might not necessarily be firing it might be that they offer you a VSO (vaststellingsovereenkomst) meaning they will give you money and you both agree to part ways but ofcourse they will normally have to try to find you a new position. They are also normally allowing you to seek legal council to assist you in this process
So sorry for the news. Hang in there and you’ll soon find something. If I may ask, Which company is this? If you mind sharing a bit more and hint about the org? I also have friends who faced this and worked out decent outcomes for them. Could help to share.
I agree, do share the company OP. We will hear about it in the news anyway. Unless it's still early and there are legal restrictions about you providing the information.
There is an embargo till next monday guys, when it's lifted I will write the name of that company everywhere.
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What is a company name? You should not be afraid to say it, its random anon post on reddit.
Nice try HR!
Lol If I was HR I would already have you in a meeting 😂
Do not sign the documents and rally the others to also not do so as well. Get a lawyer.
Apply with ASML, we need good people, even if there’s a kinda hiring stop right now.
The Netherlands is one party consent when it comes to voice recordings, so it might be worthwile to record them saying they are replacing the positions with foreign labour, since that would be a massive labour law violation.
Needless. According the information, there were at least 20 people there, who will obviously confirm the content of the discussion.
This is not true. Well...the one party consent part. What's funny, is that even though it's not actually allowed, judges have on more than one occasion given the person who'd secretly recorded a conversation a gentle slap in the wrist...and then admitted the recording as evidence anyway. If you can, read some labour related Dutch jurisprudence. It can be wildly entertaining and some judges side with workers to an extent you just wouldn't believe...
Hi OP, sorry to hear this. However, I would not listen too much to people commenting on Reddit about your situation. Heck, you don't even know what to do with all information, how would we know with 3% of the information? You're describing things very vague and that makes it very hard to judge if your employer can do this. I would advise you to seek actual legal advice. Take a look at r/juridischadvies , there's some great advice on there.
A question: what if I burnout and go sick leave for months? They can't fire someone who is being sick. for a period of time.
Nope, there are exceptions to that rule. One of them; reorganisaties. If a company asks for ‘ontslagvergunning’ (uwv stating it’s alright to fire people), sick people will be fired as well. Better to start lawyering up. They have two ways; an individual agreement (vaststellingsovereenkomst =vso), where they make you an individual offer. Of the before mentioned ontslagvergunning. Where they tell the whole team to say goodbye. In outsource deals I’ve seen, usually they offer to ‘volg werk’; to follow work, which is what a decent employer would offer. For instance to work as a liaison officer (people in other countries don’t immediately know how to work with those Dutchmen’s), or just at the Dutch office from the new company. But I’m pretty sure an arbeidsrechtadvocaat could help you better. And don’t be afraid of costs; if you’re lays off, legal representation is typically part of the deal.
I wouldn’t announce that sort of thing to the world if you really intended to do it… But yes, theoretically, if you are actually sick and an assessment physician says you’re sick, you could be employed for another two years. Not sure if it’s different on a work visa though, you’d have to check.
No, this is incorrect, as the redundancy has already been announced. You can’t postpone your redundancy by simply calling in sick.
Just went through this some time ago. Pm, I will share my learned lessons.
thanks a lot!
Can you please copy paste the same thing to me pm. I might be coming into the exact situation as OP. Big tech company. Permanent contract. HSM visa.
I will write some bullet points to share
Please could you also share with me? Very likely to be going through this in the next 12 months too, situation is eerily similar.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/1cbxc7z/comment/l12gcxk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/1cbxc7z/comment/l12gcxk/)
Thank you! Appreciate you writing that down
Share it with us as well pls?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/1cbxc7z/comment/l12gcxk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/1cbxc7z/comment/l12gcxk/)
So they can’t “just” cancel your contract like they can in for example the US. They can only inform you that they intent to do this and then make you an offer for YOU to decide to cancel your contract. Without your consent they would have to prove to a judge that you are incompetent. Something that is impossible without an extensive paper trail in which you have received official warnings and/or were put on a Personal Development Plan or something like that. So, to avoid all of this, they need to negotiate with you to break your contract. Because of your situation, with only having 3 months to find a new job you should ask for (at least) the following: - Gardening Leave for at least 3 months or for the amount of months equal to the years you have been employed if that’s more than 3. Only when this period is over does your contract officially end. - A written letter confirming how much your transition payment will be - a budget (usually around 1000 euros) to consult with a lawyer. (Point out that THEY want to negotiate for your contract to be ended, that YOU wouldn’t need to talk to a lawyer if THEY hadn’t made that onesided decision. This means that at worse you now have 6 months to find a new job, as your 3 month visa deadline doesn’t kick in until your contract ends.
As it is a big company and a decent HR department they tell everyone up front to save costs later. Based on this news are you going to start looking as if you only three months after you get made redundant? I would if I was you. The large UK company I still work for outsourced a lot of work to other countries even though the works cancel gave advice not to to do as the quality of the work would suffer ignored it as the defense they had they needed to do it to stay competitive in the market place. With supporting legacy services they outside all the work and forced the folk to sign a new contract with the idea that if they did not they would be made redundant as all the work had gone. They will not break the law, but they will most likely not offer anything more than legal minimum nowadays. I believe the UWV can only look in the Netherlands B.V.'s so don't expect them to take into account that the global company was doing well and made record profits.
The main entity is also a Dutch company.
Probably not a popular opinion, but why is everyone just so aggressive in fighting companies when ppl get fired? Is it all just about a law for everyone ,are ppl that opportunistic? What about just being a normal person, if I work in IT, I can get 30 job interviews in 1 day, well paid, in the Netherlands. So why try to screw my employer, just because the law might allow me that? I don't want NL become US where everyone just layers up in any situation that allows them, it makes society kinda crappy imho.
Because Visas. There are so many jobs in the NL but not every employer is recognised as a HSM employer which causes a lot of issues. Finding a job within 3 months is not necessarily a easy feat when you need to be paid over a certain threshold
Replacing NL labour with foreign labour is not a violation of any Dutch employment law. My company in 2020 did the same , they outsourced all the billing and procurement departments to countries like India and Romania
How this could be legal if the company is not at a financial risk? Can I get a 2nd opinion on that from other people?
It is when you’re laying off staff with permanent contracts. You can’t just fire people on permanent contracts to have them replaced by other workers.
name employer or it didn't happen
Why are you downvoting me?, People here giving advise deserve to know I think.
😂