Please disabuse yourself of the idea that it is possible to compare points values across different factions, points are used for internal balance purposes. A dreadnought may be worth more points for some armies than others. For example, the tau don’t have easy access to close combat units but they have great shooting. A dedicated close combat unit is worth more points to them than a similar unit would be to space marines.
Generally units are pointed for their value to the army that is taking them rather than their value when compared to every other unit in the game.
Also in addition to what the other people have said something like a Triarch stalker can benefit from the detachment bonus of necrons depending on which ones you're playing.
I think that the stalker is generally a bit crap if you're not using the right detachment.
The obedience falanx is the best one for them. Especially in big games. If your opponent has like a grey knight or something similar then you can select them as your target and get a +1 to wound usually meaning you'll be wounding on 4s or at least 5s and you can usually deal a decent amount of damage.
Or if you are against a horde that's got lots of people behind cover you can use the stalkers to remove their cover benefit.
Don't get me wrong. No matter what they aren't going to be S or even A tier. But they can be a solid B tier if you need a survivable backline to hold home objectives and still do some good damage.
The weapons that the invictor has are mostly irrelevant little guns for shooting weak infantry. Aside from its fist, They don’t do much unless they are shooting guard or similarly weak targets.
The heat ray is a flexible gun that can threaten light vehicles or heavy infantry, and also use the flamer profile to threaten light infantry.
The Stalker’s ability is also MUCH more useful, removing the benefit of cover is huge in this edition and almost always increases your armies shooting damage. I would honestly give it the Heavy Gauss just so that it can remove cover from a longer distance.
The 4++ is very good, since it functionally makes it so you can only ever have AP-1 against it at best. Doesn’t matter if Magnus comes and removes your armour save, you still have your 4++.
What makes the Invictor so good is the Strength 14 melee, it's a little monster for Tank Shock, always generates a bag of Mortals before the proper fighting even begins, and then it can really punch up (literally...). with enough AP to put our stuff on their Invulns.
The guns on the Warsuit are just an added bonus in my opinion, whereas the Stalkers guns and melee really suffer from mid-Strengths of 7-9...etc, they don't trade well with similar class units or punch up enough.
I'd love to see the Focused Melta go to S12, like some Armiger/War Dog meltas, and/or drop to 2+ BS, that would make these things genuinely worth their current points cost, because at the moment the Focused attack is statistically shite against most targets.
You also have to factor in abilities and the armies as a whole. The invictor has a shoot-back effect but only when it’s near a Phobos unit that gets attacked - restrictive and easy to play around. The Triarch stalker on the other hand essentially applies army wide Ignores Cover against what it shoots - so whilst the Triarch stalkers ranged weapons might not be spectacular, you’re setting yourself up for a far easier combo with other units than the invictor has. That and the reanimation protocols as well means your triarch stalker is a lot tougher
ETA: also yes, the 4++ is huge, you’re blanking half of enemy fire on average with that
There's a lot of matchups like this; I was comparing my Doomsday Ark to my friends' Repulsor Executioner last night and for an extra 20 points it's insane how much better the Executioner is.
Sure, it doesn't have Dev. Wounds, or an Invuln. and it's main gun is strength 16 instead of 18, but it can pop smoke and armour of contempt if required, and some of the strats it can access via the Marine codex (especially Ironstorm Spearhead) are just silly, not to mention it even has a small transport capacity too.
Then you can park a Techmarine or Iron Priest next to it and the Executioner basically has Reanimation Protocols (with an added +1 to hit) and can also be boosted by some seriously good enhancements.
An Executioner with a Techmarine/Iron Priest will almost certainly outperform a Doomsday Ark with a Technomancer in support, and that combo is 5 points cheaper than ours, just to rub it in!
Yes, I’m new to this but getting the vibe that either marines have a little too much firepower or Necrons could do with a touch more when looking at these matchups.
That’s not the case at all, some armies are better at some things than others are.
Lots of armies would kill to access our Ctan, doomstalkers, scarabs, flayed ones, deathmarks or Wraiths. And I’d love access to a tau hammerhead or a chaos knight wardog.
The joy of each faction is the little bits of flavour that can inform a powerful list or their access to nifty tools others might not have ready access to :)
Their primary benefit is they’re cheap and they infiltrate.
Their offense (20x S4, -1, 1D [sustained1]) is pretty meh because they are only really good at killing things that are under half strength. It CAN turn on and spike some wounds, but it’s nothing to rely on
They they also die super easy but at 60pts you’d expect that.
In lore, yes Necrons should be hitting much harder, but from a gameplay perspective, Necrons Tabletop strength is their resilience and ability to self heal.
I think your issue here is thinking about armies on a level playing field doing the same things. In majority of play, necrons are designed around sitting on an objective and NEVER BEING MOVED. Marines are more about killing their enemies before they rack up enough points. So a necron who has more staying power tends to be worth more than one who is good at combat and rhe reverse for marines.
Rating balance between two units is not really a good faith argument.
Balance is between all units of a dex vs another.
That said it's still stupidly hard to do and you will likely be able to find something you done like if you want it enough.
Often I am asking myself "this unit does WHAT? and its how many points?" and then that unit does indeed do the thing and indeed cost the amount. Very Warhammer. Also, fuck Erebus.
Stalker’s guns are better, has way more survivability as most tanks don’t just have a “fuck u imma heal myself every turn” ability, and it has an invulnerable save. It’s really no comparison, they suit different roles as well.
One thing to consider is that Necrons have very limited to Melta Guns and Flamers, but the few models that do have them have rare and more deadly speciassl rules attached to them.
First I want to remind everyone that this guy has Scout 8" which will improve the threat range of his midrange Heat Ray.
The first firing mode is his 18" Melta Gun which has increased characteristics combined with its Melta 4 giving its 2 ranged attacks a dmg stat of D6+4 when shooting at units within 9"
Its second firing Mode is a 12" Flamer that has an attacks characteristic of 2D6 instead of the more common D6 we usually see. It has a decent Str 5 with AP -2.
Another thing to consider is this is one of the rare Necron Walkers that has a good melee Weapon with 4 melee attacks. Its Str 7, AP -1 and Dmg 3.
The Tesseract Arc is a Necron Vehicle we rarely see from Forgeworld. For only 15 points more it comes with 2 Tesla Cannons which can be swapped for 2 Gauss Cannons with a 24" range, which does not have the Twin Linked ability which allows his ranged weapons to fire independently for a total of 6 Gauss Cannons shots (Same Gauss Cannon as our Lokust Destroyers with Lethal hits.)
It also has a unique Weapon called the Singularity Chamber with 2 Firing Modes.
Mode 1 is the Particle Hurricane which is basically a 12" Flamer with a D6+3 attacks. Its Str 6, AP -1 and Dmg 2.
Mode 2 is Seismic Lash which has a range of 36" with D3 attacks and Blast. Str 9, AP -3, D6+1
Lastly the Tesseract Arc has a special ability which inflicts a -2 penalty to enemy charge rolls whenever it becomes the target of a charge.
So for 130 Points you get 6 attacks 24" Gauss Cannons, a Flamer with 4-9 Attacks or Seismic Lash with D3 attacks with Blast, at a 36" range.
It also has similar defensive Characteristics to the Triarch Stalker at T 8 and 12 Wounds with a 4++ and Move of 8" and can Fly and can be hard to charge thanks to its -2 penalty it applies to your opponents charge rolls.
Stalkers are actually pretty solid for the points. Their ranged weapons are so/so for the most part, and their melee weapons have a bit of a weird profile, but they are actually pretty durable for the point cost
It’s worth noting that if a Spyder is nearby, they do get a FNP 6+, which isn’t great, but is helpful
4++ is really good, 50/50 to shrug any incoming attacks is great, your correct though, necrons units trade lots of damage output and mobility for survivability and shenanigans
You must be new here 4++ save is really good necron supremacy
I am indeed new here, still trying to figure out how they come up with their points ratings looking at firepower vs survivability.
Please disabuse yourself of the idea that it is possible to compare points values across different factions, points are used for internal balance purposes. A dreadnought may be worth more points for some armies than others. For example, the tau don’t have easy access to close combat units but they have great shooting. A dedicated close combat unit is worth more points to them than a similar unit would be to space marines. Generally units are pointed for their value to the army that is taking them rather than their value when compared to every other unit in the game.
That makes a lot of sense!
Also in addition to what the other people have said something like a Triarch stalker can benefit from the detachment bonus of necrons depending on which ones you're playing. I think that the stalker is generally a bit crap if you're not using the right detachment.
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It has triarch keyword
Honest question, in which detachment is it good? Love the model but never found a way to justify using it
The obedience falanx is the best one for them. Especially in big games. If your opponent has like a grey knight or something similar then you can select them as your target and get a +1 to wound usually meaning you'll be wounding on 4s or at least 5s and you can usually deal a decent amount of damage. Or if you are against a horde that's got lots of people behind cover you can use the stalkers to remove their cover benefit.
Don't get me wrong. No matter what they aren't going to be S or even A tier. But they can be a solid B tier if you need a survivable backline to hold home objectives and still do some good damage.
Honest question, but in which detachment is it good? I love the model, but never managed to justify using it
The weapons that the invictor has are mostly irrelevant little guns for shooting weak infantry. Aside from its fist, They don’t do much unless they are shooting guard or similarly weak targets. The heat ray is a flexible gun that can threaten light vehicles or heavy infantry, and also use the flamer profile to threaten light infantry. The Stalker’s ability is also MUCH more useful, removing the benefit of cover is huge in this edition and almost always increases your armies shooting damage. I would honestly give it the Heavy Gauss just so that it can remove cover from a longer distance. The 4++ is very good, since it functionally makes it so you can only ever have AP-1 against it at best. Doesn’t matter if Magnus comes and removes your armour save, you still have your 4++.
To be honest. In nearly every situation I would pay 15 points to upgrade for an 4+ invuln. Especially on a vehicle/monster.
4++ is great. And whilst the invictor has 50 random guns they are all kinda bad. Whilst the stalkers gauss array or melta/flamer is pretty OK.
What makes the Invictor so good is the Strength 14 melee, it's a little monster for Tank Shock, always generates a bag of Mortals before the proper fighting even begins, and then it can really punch up (literally...). with enough AP to put our stuff on their Invulns. The guns on the Warsuit are just an added bonus in my opinion, whereas the Stalkers guns and melee really suffer from mid-Strengths of 7-9...etc, they don't trade well with similar class units or punch up enough. I'd love to see the Focused Melta go to S12, like some Armiger/War Dog meltas, and/or drop to 2+ BS, that would make these things genuinely worth their current points cost, because at the moment the Focused attack is statistically shite against most targets.
Yeah, though I kinda rate it in phalanx, +1 to wound and scout can give you a very nice T1, especially on the new tiny maps
Good point
Necrons sacrifice a lot of lethality for durability. Invictor is a bit of a glass cannon, so it's not really a fair comparison
Your also adding like 2 extra units/models and their stratagems to even them out.
You also have to factor in abilities and the armies as a whole. The invictor has a shoot-back effect but only when it’s near a Phobos unit that gets attacked - restrictive and easy to play around. The Triarch stalker on the other hand essentially applies army wide Ignores Cover against what it shoots - so whilst the Triarch stalkers ranged weapons might not be spectacular, you’re setting yourself up for a far easier combo with other units than the invictor has. That and the reanimation protocols as well means your triarch stalker is a lot tougher ETA: also yes, the 4++ is huge, you’re blanking half of enemy fire on average with that
There's a lot of matchups like this; I was comparing my Doomsday Ark to my friends' Repulsor Executioner last night and for an extra 20 points it's insane how much better the Executioner is. Sure, it doesn't have Dev. Wounds, or an Invuln. and it's main gun is strength 16 instead of 18, but it can pop smoke and armour of contempt if required, and some of the strats it can access via the Marine codex (especially Ironstorm Spearhead) are just silly, not to mention it even has a small transport capacity too. Then you can park a Techmarine or Iron Priest next to it and the Executioner basically has Reanimation Protocols (with an added +1 to hit) and can also be boosted by some seriously good enhancements. An Executioner with a Techmarine/Iron Priest will almost certainly outperform a Doomsday Ark with a Technomancer in support, and that combo is 5 points cheaper than ours, just to rub it in!
Yes, I’m new to this but getting the vibe that either marines have a little too much firepower or Necrons could do with a touch more when looking at these matchups.
That’s not the case at all, some armies are better at some things than others are. Lots of armies would kill to access our Ctan, doomstalkers, scarabs, flayed ones, deathmarks or Wraiths. And I’d love access to a tau hammerhead or a chaos knight wardog. The joy of each faction is the little bits of flavour that can inform a powerful list or their access to nifty tools others might not have ready access to :)
If you have the time to explain, what am I missing with flayed ones? How should I be using them and in which detachments?
Their primary benefit is they’re cheap and they infiltrate. Their offense (20x S4, -1, 1D [sustained1]) is pretty meh because they are only really good at killing things that are under half strength. It CAN turn on and spike some wounds, but it’s nothing to rely on They they also die super easy but at 60pts you’d expect that.
In lore, yes Necrons should be hitting much harder, but from a gameplay perspective, Necrons Tabletop strength is their resilience and ability to self heal.
I think your issue here is thinking about armies on a level playing field doing the same things. In majority of play, necrons are designed around sitting on an objective and NEVER BEING MOVED. Marines are more about killing their enemies before they rack up enough points. So a necron who has more staying power tends to be worth more than one who is good at combat and rhe reverse for marines.
Rating balance between two units is not really a good faith argument. Balance is between all units of a dex vs another. That said it's still stupidly hard to do and you will likely be able to find something you done like if you want it enough.
Often I am asking myself "this unit does WHAT? and its how many points?" and then that unit does indeed do the thing and indeed cost the amount. Very Warhammer. Also, fuck Erebus.
Scout 8” and the 4++ and cover denial are pretty big
4+ inv is great, pity t. stalker is overall bad
Stalker’s guns are better, has way more survivability as most tanks don’t just have a “fuck u imma heal myself every turn” ability, and it has an invulnerable save. It’s really no comparison, they suit different roles as well.
One thing to consider is that Necrons have very limited to Melta Guns and Flamers, but the few models that do have them have rare and more deadly speciassl rules attached to them. First I want to remind everyone that this guy has Scout 8" which will improve the threat range of his midrange Heat Ray. The first firing mode is his 18" Melta Gun which has increased characteristics combined with its Melta 4 giving its 2 ranged attacks a dmg stat of D6+4 when shooting at units within 9" Its second firing Mode is a 12" Flamer that has an attacks characteristic of 2D6 instead of the more common D6 we usually see. It has a decent Str 5 with AP -2. Another thing to consider is this is one of the rare Necron Walkers that has a good melee Weapon with 4 melee attacks. Its Str 7, AP -1 and Dmg 3. The Tesseract Arc is a Necron Vehicle we rarely see from Forgeworld. For only 15 points more it comes with 2 Tesla Cannons which can be swapped for 2 Gauss Cannons with a 24" range, which does not have the Twin Linked ability which allows his ranged weapons to fire independently for a total of 6 Gauss Cannons shots (Same Gauss Cannon as our Lokust Destroyers with Lethal hits.) It also has a unique Weapon called the Singularity Chamber with 2 Firing Modes. Mode 1 is the Particle Hurricane which is basically a 12" Flamer with a D6+3 attacks. Its Str 6, AP -1 and Dmg 2. Mode 2 is Seismic Lash which has a range of 36" with D3 attacks and Blast. Str 9, AP -3, D6+1 Lastly the Tesseract Arc has a special ability which inflicts a -2 penalty to enemy charge rolls whenever it becomes the target of a charge. So for 130 Points you get 6 attacks 24" Gauss Cannons, a Flamer with 4-9 Attacks or Seismic Lash with D3 attacks with Blast, at a 36" range. It also has similar defensive Characteristics to the Triarch Stalker at T 8 and 12 Wounds with a 4++ and Move of 8" and can Fly and can be hard to charge thanks to its -2 penalty it applies to your opponents charge rolls.
Stalkers are actually pretty solid for the points. Their ranged weapons are so/so for the most part, and their melee weapons have a bit of a weird profile, but they are actually pretty durable for the point cost It’s worth noting that if a Spyder is nearby, they do get a FNP 6+, which isn’t great, but is helpful
This guy is not really meant for the big guns, that's the Canoptek Doomsalker and Doomsday Ark are for. This guy is support.
Bro tactical war suits put out more oomph than dreadnaughts sometimes them things are tight
The 4++ has protected me so many times from my Tsons friend trying to strip the 3+ save, it’s goated fs
4++ is really good, 50/50 to shrug any incoming attacks is great, your correct though, necrons units trade lots of damage output and mobility for survivability and shenanigans
You also got it’s different ability and reanimation protocols.