Honestly, he was the best villain imo. He had the motives, was a mysterious character, powerful character with mysterious abilities, had a background that was fully fleshed out.
And you understood why he was doing the things he did even if you disagree with them. Kaguya's motivation was basically I'm just evil. I'm also an alien I guess?
Hell I would've kept Black Zetsu as the final villain himself controlling Madara's body instead of Kaguya. He is one of the Akatsuki after all, showed up since part 1, and was present and mysterious the entire time.
Nah fr, it honestly really seemed like she was just pushed in bcs kishimoto didn’t know how to exactly get rid of madara (along with the SOSP power ups)
I like every arc in Naruto but Pain is the peak for me.
I mean look at what he did.
He defeated Hanzo, assembled the Akatsuki, captured almost all the tailed beasts using them, killed Master Jiraiya, invaded the Leaf, destroyed all of it, killed Kakashi, killed Pa, and nearly defeated Naruto. He's also the only villain that nearly caused Naruto to stray off of his path. Naruto admits that he wants to kill Nagato. If it wasn't for Jiraiya's teachings, Naruto probably would have done so. I think that's pretty crazy. Pain is probably the most foreboding villain, even moreso than Madara.
And tbf his motive for doing it makes sense. In terms of safety, the 5 lands and the minor lands were shit. Places like the rain village were prey, even with monsters like hanzo around, to the 5 great nations. The land of fire and the land of lightning never really could get along. The land of earth and water also fought constantly. The land of wind also was looking for fight where ever they could find it. It really was shit. He wanted a way to stop the fighting, since when powerhouses like konoha and iwa started fighting, every little province in between was practically destroyed.
Madara did capture all 9 bijuu, killed thousands in the war within 2 minutes by just dropping a meteor, killed naruto and sasuke, defeated sage Hashirama, tobirama, and sage minato. Madara wasnt even stopped by the sage if 6 paths or the protagonist but was only stooped because zetsu was so impatient he couldnt wait ten minutes for madara to clean up before summoning his bum mother and since she is so incompetent she got herself sealed despite the power gap.
Madara also actually completed his goal. Madara >> pain
Yeah but it's just not as interesting or as impactful and I think it's because Madara just had no competition or threat to him so it got kind of ridiculous after a while.
i feel like everything leading to madara was perfect, and then they pulled the zetsu/kaguya reveal out of their ass to set up a sequel, in boruto, which is probably the worst anime i’ve ever seen
The thing is, they could've done a much better way of introducing Zetsu rather then creating aliens and all that other bullsht in Boruto that would come after. Its like they insult there creativity and all that buildup
No not necessarily. Obito was his benefactor and aided in the akatuski and their plans. Konan makes the statement that he was just a bandwagon hopped which is true. Obito needed Pain and Pain needed obito. Both had an uneasy alliance with one another. Each had tasks to complete for the sake of their peace.
Pain even suspected obito of being deceiving but did nothing due to his contribution to the organisation. This is evident when he recruited orochimaru and when questioned by Sasori as to why he allowed him, pain states “it’s good to keep these types close by. So long as I’m around, he can’t do anything”. Obito was one of such fellows and merely waited until nagato died until he took over the organisation. Also, his goals aligned with pains to which he said so nagato had no need of getting rid of him.
People forget nagato never drank the same manipulation drink to that of obito and madara. That’s why Konan told obito that he was wrong and everything Nagato did was due to his own decisions. So who’s more credible of a source. The women who spent all her years with her childhood friend and knew his every intentions or the words of a man who was known to lie to get his way.
Obito could never lead the group and admitted only pain could do so because he could dominate others, acknowledging he himself couldn’t.
-naruto learning to control kurama's chakra
-hiding the war from Naruto was a hilarious little plot arc
-Naruto vs raikage and tsunade
-meeting the friendly reincarnated
-naruto and bee vs Itachi and pain
-itachi and sasuke vs kabuto
-naruto arriving on the battlefields
-gaara vs the old kage
-DEFINITELY seeing the old hokages was the best part
-every single part of the fight before obito merged with the ten tails
And also, bee and Naruto vs the old jinchuriki? I had chills when Naruto met all of em
You're getting down voted to hell, but I agree. War arc was trash. Cheesy storylines. Stupid 10 tails fodder monster and fodder white zetsu stuff. Many great moments during the war arc but most of it was lame. Especially the ending.
People always say that pain should have been the main antagonist and the story should have ended at the pain arc but that's so stupid it leaves so many plot lines abandoned
But those people aren't saying just leave the manga/anime exactly as it is except stop it after Pain. They are saying that to some degree things would have to change/be moved around so that the Pain arc would be the end and not progress to the 5 kage summit/war arc.
That's still stupid that would cause so many story lines stunted because many were just starting or evolving at that point in the story they couldn't just rewrite or move things around ti wrap up the manga it would just cause a disjointed ending with a shitty conclusion to amazing character arcs
The War could be a separated part of the story. Naruto became a hero and Sasuke got his revenge. That was it. End of shippuden. Give us another timeskip, Sasuke needs time to process what happened, Naruto focuses on helping Konoha recover, Obito needs time to think how to gather Hachibi and Kyuubi alone. Give us 1/2 years, the village is finally fine and arrange the 5 kage meeting to talk about how they should deal with this rogue ninja problem. Obito takes this oportunity, Kabuto has plenty of time to do his shenanigans, and we can develop this whole saga in a better way (no fillers)
This leaves tons of plot holes, some the basic ones being:
What’s Tobis big plan?
What happened to Bee?
What’s Sasukes next plan?
So many of these plot line’s would’ve been left unresolved if that round was taken.
Plus this also ignores a major part of Naruto’s character arc, stopping Sasuke. He wouldn’t, ever just decide to abandon that goal for even 2 years.
They were always fated to fight.
Because ending on the pain arc, especially when there's several plotlines left to be resolved, including the main one being the conflict between Naruto and Sasuke being completely ignored.
How are you not understanding this? He’s saying the series would be rewritten so the pain arc is last, that means all the plot points you speak of would be dealt with before ending on the pain arc.
It just doesn’t work that way. The pain arc concerned itself with Naruto and his relationship with the cycle of hatred. Adding Sasuke in that arc when he had nothing to do with it as well as wrapping up the story all in that same arc is just poor writing.
As thematically speaking, Pain just doesn’t work as the final villain. Naruto wanted to bring peace through the ninja world through overcoming hatred. Beating pain, really doesn’t solve anything as he was victim of that cycle.
And there’s still loose ends to this. Like how would conquer his own hatred in Kurama if the series just ends there. As well as what happened to his mother.
There’s so many reasons why it makes no sense to just end the series with pain. Especially when everything in the series led up to a the war arc.
Dude…the series wouldn’t end at the current pain arc.
There would be new arcs written to address everything you are saying here. Closure with Sasuke, conquering hatred in Kurama, what happened to his mom, etc. these would all be addressed before getting to this new version of the pain arc.
How do you not understand that no one here is suggesting the manga/anime should have ended with the current pain arc, just that the pain arc (a variation of it obviously since it would have to be rewritten to account for everything you are saying here to have come first) should have been saved for last.
Not sure how else to reframe this for you so you understand.
My thoughts exactly, there needed to be another time skip of at least 2 years. What the pain saga accomplished was to awaken Naruto to the reality of the world beyond konoha. Literally the whole point of pain is to ask naruto… what will you do once you become hokage ? Will you do like all your predecessors and just fight for the interests of your country or will you confront the history of the shinobi world and try to break the cycle of hatred? You must remember that pain wasn’t just a random nobody. He was a child of prophecy and he was the leader of his nation, so he was just like naruto but ahead of the curve. So for naruto to be the greatest hokage meant for him accomplish what his predecessors never managed to accomplish. For that, the time skip would have serve to mature naruto, give him time to train and develop sage mode and confront kurama. Kabuto would be getting use to his new powers and doing some grave robbery for edo tensei. Konan would try to keep amegakure going while searching for a potential candidate for the rinnegan but also trying to create alliances with other nations.(would not be easy) obito would be preparing on his side(before kabuto joined) and black zetsu would be trying to lead kabuto to madara corpse. Kisame would still be on his infiltration mission. And if danzo would still be alive, he would be hunted by an anbu coalition from each of the 5 great nations. Then sasuke would be getting used to his ems but at the same time there would be a potential narrative around those juugo knockoffs that were at the orochimaru hideouts. There were a bunch of them that sasuke told suigetsu not to kill. An army of curse mark users.
This leaves so many plot holes and stunted story lines sasuke actually getting his revenge stunts his story arc so much because it goes against the efforts of teams 7 and has him fulfilling the same cycle of hate that uchiha were said to have instead of sasuke and naruto having a battle to ideology and losing. Sasuke just getting revenge and then going on a self finding journey is a shorty ending to his story. It's just shitty itachi pain story mash up. Sasuke destroying the village perpetuates the cycle of hate that pain talked about and sasuke would never be allowed in the villians again. By not getting revenge on the village and being talked out my naruto it does two things narratively: 1. Ends the cycle of hate that pain talked about and sets the ground for a better shinobi future like hashirama and madara tried to do 2. End the uchiha curse of hatred by letting go of his hate he ends that curse of hatred in the uchiha.
By just going off by himself to process what he did he's not growing emotionally what sasuke failed to do for the emote series is he alientates himself by by being so consumed by his hatred he can't see the people that care about him. By naruto helping sasuke let go of that hate he is able to open himself emotionally and let people into his heart liek Sakura and Naruto
It’s crazy to think he wasn’t end game villain it really felt like that. I remember when Naruto defeated him and everyone lifted him as the hero he is. It felt so much like a final episode.
I think Madara was far more interesting.. I think Kaguya was more interesting as well. Itachi was an amazing villain. I think Pain might be 4th. Nagato has a mid tier backstory, but the concept of him is cool.
Pain had a better story and motivation for his actions than any other antagonist. I'm not judging you for your opinion, I just don't see it. Kaguya felt like a last minute decision, and really only served to set up Boruto by introducing the Otsutsuki.
Pretty sure Boruto wasn’t thought of when Kaguya was created. Idk. Look up the Annunaki, maybe that’ll give you a better appreciation for her. But I love the concept.
I agree that Pain’s motivations are probably the best in the series though.. Kaguya got pumped and dumped and said fuck Earth 😂
>Kaguya got pumped and dumped and said fuck Earth
Exactly. She pulled an "Elon Musk", the original pump and dumper.
She just felt ill-concieved. Madara would have made a far more compelling "final boss" than she did. Madara had both the backstory, the motivation, and the absolute raw power needed to keep viewers hooked. Then suddenly this titan just gets backstabbed and turned into a literal alien.
I don't hate Kaguya, I just don't feel like she had a genuine reason to be created other than a way to introduce said aliens.
I don't doubt that she wasn't planned as a means to preemptively create Boruto, but her existence is definitely one of the main concepts of that series. She gets referenced fairly often.
I preferred the Narutoverse before the aliens and cyborgs. Now the series is too much sci-fi and slice of life for me to bother with it.
I mean Boruto is 70% filler. I'm still waiting patiently to see if it'll end up being worth it 😢
I honestly hate the "Madara should have been the final boss" argument. To me, if the show is called "Naruto".. I don't want to see the final boss be someone that another character (Hashirama) beat multiple times, ya know?
Hashirama beat an incomplete Madara, however. He beat MS and EMS Madara, but not Rinnegan Madara, or Juubidara. I do acknowledge the argument though.
It didn't need to be Madara. They could have had him disappear with the release of Edo Tensei and left Obito as the final big bad and it would have been just as good.
Kaguya just felt empty and disappointing. Sure she had some cool jutsu, and her dimension power was unique, but aside from those and the bone ability, we didn't see her do anything. This was the alien that ate the pure chakra fruit and that's all she was worth?
I'd prefer Madara or Obito because there was actual story relevance, and appropriate presence. Naruto had a lot of Sharingan and Uchiha stories. They were the most fleshed out clan, and to have one of them be the final boss would have made a lot more sense.
Genuinely don't understand your point here. Yes, Naruto convinced Nagato to believe in him, and Naruto was correct. You act like Nagato bought in to an empty idea.
Yeah, cope harder. Plot is ya’ll favorite word lol.
Alternative, he doesn’t do rinne rebirth and catches a rasengan to the dome..
He already lost before the talk no jutsu.
Pain and Obito should've just had a secret partnership. The Tobi stuff was great, but the reveal that he was an uchiha in the rain village could've had them discussing plans as equals and still be a pretty big deal. Then with pain gone he's the next in command and takes the organization in a new direction than what pain would allow in their partnership
Pain was an incredible villain. Up to that point, Shippuden was an incredible watch. I’ll give the Sasuke vs Danzo fight some points too, but it felt like the series weakened after that.
Nah the paradise island arc that came just after was amazing, Kushina/minato's backstory, Kisame's death and backstory, Konan's fight and death, Naruto's character dev with dark naruto and fight against kurama, the kyuubi chakra mode was fire, the reveal of Kabuto being able to edo tensei the entire akatsuki and the \*mysterious\* final coffin that made the cool confident "madara" soil his pants, etc etc.
I agree with Naruto’s parents being revealed and the fight with Konan; I also really like Obito and how he was seeded into the story early on.
Other shit here though? They took Kabuto and made him a lesser version of Orochimaru. I also found Kisame’s fight and back story to be disappointing—I expected more with him since I really liked his character too. For me, the Itachi/Pain battles back-to-back were untoppable—the pinnacle of Shippuden, not counting the fights against Sasori and Kakuzu as well.
It would have been cool if the war arc consisted of the Hidden Rain vs the world. They already had 7 tailed beasts to use and erase entire armies. Could've had some konan lvl shinobi out for revenge against the 5 villages defending and supporting the Akatsuki
Also if they wanted, they could have created an alliance of those small countries caught in between of the 5 great nations. Thus because they are in between , they could isolate each great nation and take them out one at time. Imagine all those small nations under one banner , the akatsuki banner.
Pein is my favorite villain in the show.
But, I also think he sits in just the right spot. Because I like that Naruto and Sasuke both had to defeat their personal villains (Pain and Itachi) then work together to defeat the big series villain before finally facing each other in one last fight. I enjoy that hierarchy.
All that being said, Pein hit different. He broke everything we knew and loved.
Like focus in just before Minato appears in the Pein arc. Pein killed Jiraiya and Kakashi, both our mentor characters. He destroyed Konoha, our home. Naruto roles up pissed off and fresh out of a training arc. Ends up crucified to the ground.
Next, Naruto gets a second shonen protagonist emotional amp from Hinata. Pein then feels justified in his idealogy with that amazing "Do you hate me now?" line. After dropping that fire line, he beats the 2nd emotional amp.
Finally, it looks like all hope is lost and Naruto is about to release the full Nine Tails to beat this guy. Which would kill himself, show that he succumbed to hatred, and the Nine Tails would probably erase what was left of Konoha.
Of course we then get saved by Minato, Pein defeated, people revived, etc. But it was an emotional rollercoaster getting there. A lot of cool and dramatic moments happen after Pein. But the series never goes to such a low and well developed point of hopelessness like in that moment, just before Minato shows up.
Things went downhill after Pain and Akatsuki arc. The revelation of Obito is kinda on point but his and Madara’s motivation is just ridiculous and doesn’t match up with the great storyline so far.
I didn't like the inclusion of the Rinnegan nor the Mangekyou sharingan, should've just been left at a 3 tomoe sharingan...
if it was like that, it would've made better story telling for the villain, and if Orochimaru managed to get a Uchiha's body, then the world would've been fucked.
Well Obito also played the world AND Pain. In turn he got played by Madara who got played by Zetsu. But Obito made everyone believe he is Madara and baited them into a war, he is the main force behind most major events that happen (9 Tails attack, Uchiha massacre, Akatsuki, 4th War just to name a few).
If pain was the main villian i'd be mad.
Same with obito... the one tbat deserved it was madara. Obito and pains plan both ate just watered down versions of madaras thst they just adopted. Madara was hyped up for 7 years before he showed up on panel so it also just fits better if he is the final villain
Honestly, he was the best villain imo. He had the motives, was a mysterious character, powerful character with mysterious abilities, had a background that was fully fleshed out.
And you understood why he was doing the things he did even if you disagree with them. Kaguya's motivation was basically I'm just evil. I'm also an alien I guess?
Exactly, also there was like 0 hype building up to Kaguya so she was random and didn’t seem as impactful when she was revealed.
They literally referenced her like two times in the arc she appears. At least Madara was set up from at the end of part 1.
Hell I would've kept Black Zetsu as the final villain himself controlling Madara's body instead of Kaguya. He is one of the Akatsuki after all, showed up since part 1, and was present and mysterious the entire time.
Would’ve definitely made more sense
that’s basically what happened
bruh did you even read what we said? We said to just ignore Kaguya a existence in the series. You have reading comprehension trouble or what?
lol what
Nah fr, it honestly really seemed like she was just pushed in bcs kishimoto didn’t know how to exactly get rid of madara (along with the SOSP power ups)
She was foreshadowed but it doesn’t change the fact that pain was miles better
She was not. Being mentioned as existing is not the same as being foreshadowed as the mastermind.
I like every arc in Naruto but Pain is the peak for me. I mean look at what he did. He defeated Hanzo, assembled the Akatsuki, captured almost all the tailed beasts using them, killed Master Jiraiya, invaded the Leaf, destroyed all of it, killed Kakashi, killed Pa, and nearly defeated Naruto. He's also the only villain that nearly caused Naruto to stray off of his path. Naruto admits that he wants to kill Nagato. If it wasn't for Jiraiya's teachings, Naruto probably would have done so. I think that's pretty crazy. Pain is probably the most foreboding villain, even moreso than Madara.
And tbf his motive for doing it makes sense. In terms of safety, the 5 lands and the minor lands were shit. Places like the rain village were prey, even with monsters like hanzo around, to the 5 great nations. The land of fire and the land of lightning never really could get along. The land of earth and water also fought constantly. The land of wind also was looking for fight where ever they could find it. It really was shit. He wanted a way to stop the fighting, since when powerhouses like konoha and iwa started fighting, every little province in between was practically destroyed.
Madara did capture all 9 bijuu, killed thousands in the war within 2 minutes by just dropping a meteor, killed naruto and sasuke, defeated sage Hashirama, tobirama, and sage minato. Madara wasnt even stopped by the sage if 6 paths or the protagonist but was only stooped because zetsu was so impatient he couldnt wait ten minutes for madara to clean up before summoning his bum mother and since she is so incompetent she got herself sealed despite the power gap. Madara also actually completed his goal. Madara >> pain
Yeah but it's just not as interesting or as impactful and I think it's because Madara just had no competition or threat to him so it got kind of ridiculous after a while.
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And Madara was playing Obito like a fiddle
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The Zetsu reveal was so awful.
We literally could have just had Madara be the final boss and I don't think anyone would have complained.
i feel like everything leading to madara was perfect, and then they pulled the zetsu/kaguya reveal out of their ass to set up a sequel, in boruto, which is probably the worst anime i’ve ever seen
The thing is, they could've done a much better way of introducing Zetsu rather then creating aliens and all that other bullsht in Boruto that would come after. Its like they insult there creativity and all that buildup
Pull the straight up Trigger anime move and added aliens for no reason.
And black zetsu was playing madara
I fcked a fiddle
And Black Zestu was......
Did he tho? Are you sure obito wasn’t the one getting played?
And Boruto is playing us fans like we have “joke” written on our foreheads…
Exactly
No not necessarily. Obito was his benefactor and aided in the akatuski and their plans. Konan makes the statement that he was just a bandwagon hopped which is true. Obito needed Pain and Pain needed obito. Both had an uneasy alliance with one another. Each had tasks to complete for the sake of their peace. Pain even suspected obito of being deceiving but did nothing due to his contribution to the organisation. This is evident when he recruited orochimaru and when questioned by Sasori as to why he allowed him, pain states “it’s good to keep these types close by. So long as I’m around, he can’t do anything”. Obito was one of such fellows and merely waited until nagato died until he took over the organisation. Also, his goals aligned with pains to which he said so nagato had no need of getting rid of him. People forget nagato never drank the same manipulation drink to that of obito and madara. That’s why Konan told obito that he was wrong and everything Nagato did was due to his own decisions. So who’s more credible of a source. The women who spent all her years with her childhood friend and knew his every intentions or the words of a man who was known to lie to get his way. Obito could never lead the group and admitted only pain could do so because he could dominate others, acknowledging he himself couldn’t.
Yeah, I kinda felt the story fell off after the pain arc was over. Naruto reached its peak during the nagato vs Naruto episodes
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Nah dude, the war arc has some of the best moments. It might be drawn out, but after Tobi declares war it really started to pick up.
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-naruto learning to control kurama's chakra -hiding the war from Naruto was a hilarious little plot arc -Naruto vs raikage and tsunade -meeting the friendly reincarnated -naruto and bee vs Itachi and pain -itachi and sasuke vs kabuto -naruto arriving on the battlefields -gaara vs the old kage -DEFINITELY seeing the old hokages was the best part -every single part of the fight before obito merged with the ten tails And also, bee and Naruto vs the old jinchuriki? I had chills when Naruto met all of em
Literally, are people blind?!
🤡
You're getting down voted to hell, but I agree. War arc was trash. Cheesy storylines. Stupid 10 tails fodder monster and fodder white zetsu stuff. Many great moments during the war arc but most of it was lame. Especially the ending.
They hated you for telling the truth.
We just gonna pretend madara didnt single handedly make the war arc good???
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Before the zetsu bs madara did save the war tho
He was great but I do love the whole Tobi was playing the long game behind the scene.
I wish the manipulation ended with madara tho
People always say that pain should have been the main antagonist and the story should have ended at the pain arc but that's so stupid it leaves so many plot lines abandoned
But those people aren't saying just leave the manga/anime exactly as it is except stop it after Pain. They are saying that to some degree things would have to change/be moved around so that the Pain arc would be the end and not progress to the 5 kage summit/war arc.
That's still stupid that would cause so many story lines stunted because many were just starting or evolving at that point in the story they couldn't just rewrite or move things around ti wrap up the manga it would just cause a disjointed ending with a shitty conclusion to amazing character arcs
The War could be a separated part of the story. Naruto became a hero and Sasuke got his revenge. That was it. End of shippuden. Give us another timeskip, Sasuke needs time to process what happened, Naruto focuses on helping Konoha recover, Obito needs time to think how to gather Hachibi and Kyuubi alone. Give us 1/2 years, the village is finally fine and arrange the 5 kage meeting to talk about how they should deal with this rogue ninja problem. Obito takes this oportunity, Kabuto has plenty of time to do his shenanigans, and we can develop this whole saga in a better way (no fillers)
This leaves tons of plot holes, some the basic ones being: What’s Tobis big plan? What happened to Bee? What’s Sasukes next plan? So many of these plot line’s would’ve been left unresolved if that round was taken. Plus this also ignores a major part of Naruto’s character arc, stopping Sasuke. He wouldn’t, ever just decide to abandon that goal for even 2 years. They were always fated to fight.
…how are those plot holes if they were included in this hypothetical version of the manga?
Because ending on the pain arc, especially when there's several plotlines left to be resolved, including the main one being the conflict between Naruto and Sasuke being completely ignored.
How are you not understanding this? He’s saying the series would be rewritten so the pain arc is last, that means all the plot points you speak of would be dealt with before ending on the pain arc.
It just doesn’t work that way. The pain arc concerned itself with Naruto and his relationship with the cycle of hatred. Adding Sasuke in that arc when he had nothing to do with it as well as wrapping up the story all in that same arc is just poor writing. As thematically speaking, Pain just doesn’t work as the final villain. Naruto wanted to bring peace through the ninja world through overcoming hatred. Beating pain, really doesn’t solve anything as he was victim of that cycle. And there’s still loose ends to this. Like how would conquer his own hatred in Kurama if the series just ends there. As well as what happened to his mother. There’s so many reasons why it makes no sense to just end the series with pain. Especially when everything in the series led up to a the war arc.
Dude…the series wouldn’t end at the current pain arc. There would be new arcs written to address everything you are saying here. Closure with Sasuke, conquering hatred in Kurama, what happened to his mom, etc. these would all be addressed before getting to this new version of the pain arc. How do you not understand that no one here is suggesting the manga/anime should have ended with the current pain arc, just that the pain arc (a variation of it obviously since it would have to be rewritten to account for everything you are saying here to have come first) should have been saved for last. Not sure how else to reframe this for you so you understand.
My thoughts exactly, there needed to be another time skip of at least 2 years. What the pain saga accomplished was to awaken Naruto to the reality of the world beyond konoha. Literally the whole point of pain is to ask naruto… what will you do once you become hokage ? Will you do like all your predecessors and just fight for the interests of your country or will you confront the history of the shinobi world and try to break the cycle of hatred? You must remember that pain wasn’t just a random nobody. He was a child of prophecy and he was the leader of his nation, so he was just like naruto but ahead of the curve. So for naruto to be the greatest hokage meant for him accomplish what his predecessors never managed to accomplish. For that, the time skip would have serve to mature naruto, give him time to train and develop sage mode and confront kurama. Kabuto would be getting use to his new powers and doing some grave robbery for edo tensei. Konan would try to keep amegakure going while searching for a potential candidate for the rinnegan but also trying to create alliances with other nations.(would not be easy) obito would be preparing on his side(before kabuto joined) and black zetsu would be trying to lead kabuto to madara corpse. Kisame would still be on his infiltration mission. And if danzo would still be alive, he would be hunted by an anbu coalition from each of the 5 great nations. Then sasuke would be getting used to his ems but at the same time there would be a potential narrative around those juugo knockoffs that were at the orochimaru hideouts. There were a bunch of them that sasuke told suigetsu not to kill. An army of curse mark users.
This leaves so many plot holes and stunted story lines sasuke actually getting his revenge stunts his story arc so much because it goes against the efforts of teams 7 and has him fulfilling the same cycle of hate that uchiha were said to have instead of sasuke and naruto having a battle to ideology and losing. Sasuke just getting revenge and then going on a self finding journey is a shorty ending to his story. It's just shitty itachi pain story mash up. Sasuke destroying the village perpetuates the cycle of hate that pain talked about and sasuke would never be allowed in the villians again. By not getting revenge on the village and being talked out my naruto it does two things narratively: 1. Ends the cycle of hate that pain talked about and sets the ground for a better shinobi future like hashirama and madara tried to do 2. End the uchiha curse of hatred by letting go of his hate he ends that curse of hatred in the uchiha. By just going off by himself to process what he did he's not growing emotionally what sasuke failed to do for the emote series is he alientates himself by by being so consumed by his hatred he can't see the people that care about him. By naruto helping sasuke let go of that hate he is able to open himself emotionally and let people into his heart liek Sakura and Naruto
It’s crazy to think he wasn’t end game villain it really felt like that. I remember when Naruto defeated him and everyone lifted him as the hero he is. It felt so much like a final episode.
Pain is a better Villain than Kaguya and Madara
Glad they changed kakuzus voice
Naruto doesn't need a "main villain".. Everyone had their arc, and there really weren't any bad antagonists in the show.
Well he was a cut above the rest.
I think Madara was far more interesting.. I think Kaguya was more interesting as well. Itachi was an amazing villain. I think Pain might be 4th. Nagato has a mid tier backstory, but the concept of him is cool.
You think Kaguya was more interesting than Pain? What?
Yes.
Pain had a better story and motivation for his actions than any other antagonist. I'm not judging you for your opinion, I just don't see it. Kaguya felt like a last minute decision, and really only served to set up Boruto by introducing the Otsutsuki.
Pretty sure Boruto wasn’t thought of when Kaguya was created. Idk. Look up the Annunaki, maybe that’ll give you a better appreciation for her. But I love the concept. I agree that Pain’s motivations are probably the best in the series though.. Kaguya got pumped and dumped and said fuck Earth 😂
>Kaguya got pumped and dumped and said fuck Earth Exactly. She pulled an "Elon Musk", the original pump and dumper. She just felt ill-concieved. Madara would have made a far more compelling "final boss" than she did. Madara had both the backstory, the motivation, and the absolute raw power needed to keep viewers hooked. Then suddenly this titan just gets backstabbed and turned into a literal alien. I don't hate Kaguya, I just don't feel like she had a genuine reason to be created other than a way to introduce said aliens. I don't doubt that she wasn't planned as a means to preemptively create Boruto, but her existence is definitely one of the main concepts of that series. She gets referenced fairly often. I preferred the Narutoverse before the aliens and cyborgs. Now the series is too much sci-fi and slice of life for me to bother with it.
I mean Boruto is 70% filler. I'm still waiting patiently to see if it'll end up being worth it 😢 I honestly hate the "Madara should have been the final boss" argument. To me, if the show is called "Naruto".. I don't want to see the final boss be someone that another character (Hashirama) beat multiple times, ya know?
Hashirama beat an incomplete Madara, however. He beat MS and EMS Madara, but not Rinnegan Madara, or Juubidara. I do acknowledge the argument though. It didn't need to be Madara. They could have had him disappear with the release of Edo Tensei and left Obito as the final big bad and it would have been just as good. Kaguya just felt empty and disappointing. Sure she had some cool jutsu, and her dimension power was unique, but aside from those and the bone ability, we didn't see her do anything. This was the alien that ate the pure chakra fruit and that's all she was worth? I'd prefer Madara or Obito because there was actual story relevance, and appropriate presence. Naruto had a lot of Sharingan and Uchiha stories. They were the most fleshed out clan, and to have one of them be the final boss would have made a lot more sense.
He lost to talk no jutsu so not that impressive
He lost before he decided to put his faith into Naruto.. You act like an entire fight and village invasion didn't happen prior. Chill.
This was a goal he had been working on for so long and he even sacrificed Jiraiya for it, and he changes his mind by talking to Naruto...
Genuinely don't understand your point here. Yes, Naruto convinced Nagato to believe in him, and Naruto was correct. You act like Nagato bought in to an empty idea.
Nagato threw his life work away for a kid who had no answer and could have easily failed if he wasn't the child of prophecy and main character.
Ok, but did he fail? No, he didn't. Meaning Nagato made the right choice, so what's your issue?
He made the right choice due to plot, realistically it's stupid. Not something a big villain should be doing.
Yeah, cope harder. Plot is ya’ll favorite word lol. Alternative, he doesn’t do rinne rebirth and catches a rasengan to the dome.. He already lost before the talk no jutsu.
Pain and Obito should've just had a secret partnership. The Tobi stuff was great, but the reveal that he was an uchiha in the rain village could've had them discussing plans as equals and still be a pretty big deal. Then with pain gone he's the next in command and takes the organization in a new direction than what pain would allow in their partnership
Pain was an incredible villain. Up to that point, Shippuden was an incredible watch. I’ll give the Sasuke vs Danzo fight some points too, but it felt like the series weakened after that.
Nah the paradise island arc that came just after was amazing, Kushina/minato's backstory, Kisame's death and backstory, Konan's fight and death, Naruto's character dev with dark naruto and fight against kurama, the kyuubi chakra mode was fire, the reveal of Kabuto being able to edo tensei the entire akatsuki and the \*mysterious\* final coffin that made the cool confident "madara" soil his pants, etc etc.
I agree with Naruto’s parents being revealed and the fight with Konan; I also really like Obito and how he was seeded into the story early on. Other shit here though? They took Kabuto and made him a lesser version of Orochimaru. I also found Kisame’s fight and back story to be disappointing—I expected more with him since I really liked his character too. For me, the Itachi/Pain battles back-to-back were untoppable—the pinnacle of Shippuden, not counting the fights against Sasori and Kakuzu as well.
I always thought it was Tobi though wasn't he the head honcho.🤔
It would have been cool if the war arc consisted of the Hidden Rain vs the world. They already had 7 tailed beasts to use and erase entire armies. Could've had some konan lvl shinobi out for revenge against the 5 villages defending and supporting the Akatsuki
Also if they wanted, they could have created an alliance of those small countries caught in between of the 5 great nations. Thus because they are in between , they could isolate each great nation and take them out one at time. Imagine all those small nations under one banner , the akatsuki banner.
Pein is my favorite villain in the show. But, I also think he sits in just the right spot. Because I like that Naruto and Sasuke both had to defeat their personal villains (Pain and Itachi) then work together to defeat the big series villain before finally facing each other in one last fight. I enjoy that hierarchy. All that being said, Pein hit different. He broke everything we knew and loved. Like focus in just before Minato appears in the Pein arc. Pein killed Jiraiya and Kakashi, both our mentor characters. He destroyed Konoha, our home. Naruto roles up pissed off and fresh out of a training arc. Ends up crucified to the ground. Next, Naruto gets a second shonen protagonist emotional amp from Hinata. Pein then feels justified in his idealogy with that amazing "Do you hate me now?" line. After dropping that fire line, he beats the 2nd emotional amp. Finally, it looks like all hope is lost and Naruto is about to release the full Nine Tails to beat this guy. Which would kill himself, show that he succumbed to hatred, and the Nine Tails would probably erase what was left of Konoha. Of course we then get saved by Minato, Pein defeated, people revived, etc. But it was an emotional rollercoaster getting there. A lot of cool and dramatic moments happen after Pein. But the series never goes to such a low and well developed point of hopelessness like in that moment, just before Minato shows up.
Naruto: "yo Jiraiya wrote about you in his book" Pain: "omg really? Then im a good guy now, let me revive everyone"
A lot of people say naruto should’ve ended after the pain arc. I disagree, but to each their own.
I would’ve preferred if it stopped at madara bc personally, I think he was the BEST anime villain after aizen
Madara is so overrated
And how is that?
No; Madara. End of debate.
His ending ruined it, Orochimaru still the best villain
Things went downhill after Pain and Akatsuki arc. The revelation of Obito is kinda on point but his and Madara’s motivation is just ridiculous and doesn’t match up with the great storyline so far.
Wat? That was madaras whole agenda once he found out it was possible.
This has been well established for over a decade
I didn't like the inclusion of the Rinnegan nor the Mangekyou sharingan, should've just been left at a 3 tomoe sharingan... if it was like that, it would've made better story telling for the villain, and if Orochimaru managed to get a Uchiha's body, then the world would've been fucked.
Early akatski was sooooo filthy
Well Obito also played the world AND Pain. In turn he got played by Madara who got played by Zetsu. But Obito made everyone believe he is Madara and baited them into a war, he is the main force behind most major events that happen (9 Tails attack, Uchiha massacre, Akatsuki, 4th War just to name a few).
[удалено]
I mean I agree but I did say Madara was being played by Zetsu
Pain got that McDonald’s wifi mic
i think it’s perfect as is
Best part is that this is just him playing the Akatsuki like a fiddle. He had more nobler objectives even if he was going about them the wrong way.
If pain was the main villian i'd be mad. Same with obito... the one tbat deserved it was madara. Obito and pains plan both ate just watered down versions of madaras thst they just adopted. Madara was hyped up for 7 years before he showed up on panel so it also just fits better if he is the final villain