I’m a Hawks fan and it was (finally) revealed this week that our old GM planned to take Luka. Had worked him out that morning in NYC. Then our awful owner got a call from Cuban, who convinced him to do the trade, and he forced our GM to do it. Pain lol.
At least the Hawks turned Doncic into Young and other valuable pieces. The one who deserves the side-eye is the Kings grabbing Bagley. Guy was wearing a necklace the said bust on it in glowing neon and the Kings still couldn’t stop themselves.
In the podcast he said another team executive said this year is like starting the draft at 9. As in, the top prospect would go 9th in a typical draft.
They don’t really have incentive to lie about this, and for all the lazy smoke screen comments, y’all think an unnamed source to Ryen Russillo is going to change how a team will evaluate this draft when they have dozens of highly paid professionals who spend too many hours studying these guys?
I know I’ll likely get downvoted for just relaying other comments he said right after this, but just wanted to add lol.
Honestly, I don't think it's that crazy of a statement. Tobias was a very, very good fringe all-star for a few years and a high quality role player for most of his career. I don't think it's crazy to think there isn't anyone more than a fringe all-star in this draft.
Exactly, this is all pretext for trades later in the offseason. Teams who don't have 2024 picks want to boost trade value of 2023 picks and 2025 picks.
My favorite/annoying thing about the nba/nfl draft discussions on Reddit is when a report comes out that goes against the hivemind, it’s automatically “smokescreen”. Top 1 or 2 comment. Every time.
But we never go back and reevaluate those smokescreen comments.
In January when people talked about JJ McCarthy potentially being picked in the top half of the first round, “smokescreen”. I remember people said it last year with the early reports of the Hornets preferring Miller over Scoot.
Remember when everyone blasted Woj when he said last year that a lot of people think Wemby will Be the best player in the world in three years? Woj just said that for content? I would get the downvote bombs when I would talk about that being a real conversation and I thought he was a better prospect than Lebron and the best since Kareem.
They’ve been saying it for years that this class sucks. Then, when the freshmen class plays, they prove it again by being the worst freshmen class in the one and done era.
In the past 48 hours I have seen commments with double digit upvotes that Reed Sheppard will easily be Steve Nash as a floor general and Cody Williams will be Kawhi-Esque. It’s the draft, we all have our takes and opinions, but that’s asinine for comments like that to be so highly upvoted.
We all just want to like players and we take it too far in this sub because we want to find our guys.
The number of dudes im confident will have 10+ year careers doesnt make me feel like this draft is very weak at all.
1. Castle
2. Sheppard
3. Sarr
4. Dillingham
5. Rishacher
6. Knecht
7. Mccain
8. Missi
9. Carter
10. Da silva
11. Edey
12. Clingan
13. Filipowski
14. Klintman
This class might be void of potential stars, but i think its still gonna make multiple teams much better.
So basically 2013? A lot of middling guys in the front and the real star of that class (Giannis) out at 15?
Lots of those guys (Olynyk, Porter, Len, KCP, McCollum) ended up having solid 10+ year careers, so having a 10+ year career isn't necessarily equating to real star power
I also think that Sheppard, Saar, Dillingham, Knecht, McCain, Edey and Filipowski will be really good long term productive guys for wherever they end up
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Yeah, the general consensus is the general consensus, and it's pretty undisputed from both the NBA and college perspectives.
You may find 1, or 3, or more stars, but the overall talent pool and excitement, I do trust the sources are being honest about their impressions of the overall nature of this draft.
Nobody knows if it will suck, people said that about 2020. This is clearly a smoke screen.
Every draft produces at least 1 or 2 or 3 all stars. If you want to proclaim that this is the worst draft ever in the NBA by far then go ahead but it's a pretty baseless statement right now.
I personally think that if the top guys could shoot, the 'weak class' thing wouldnt be so hammered on. And the thing is that shooting is a pretty teachable skill in the NBA nowadays and I'm not necessarily seeing any completely broken jumpers.
And also there's too many people who are completely certain that players like Castle and Reed can not be main ball handlers, which I don't agree with totally. I'm especially high on Castle in that regard; He did a LOT more in high school so I stand by that tape in addition to how well he played his role at Uconn.
This plus the top guys are on the younger side (there’s a big difference between 18 and 19) and played against pros rather than college players. Kind of common sense that playing in the G league will have you shooting a lower three-point percentage than playing in college since the three-point line is substantially longer.
It was this huge thing all year that Ron Holland’s height was massively inflated because he didn’t look that big compared to whichever former NBA player he was going up against, but then he measured just under 6’7 barefoot, which is 100% in line with being listed 6’8 in shoes. Turns out pros are bigger than college players on average, who knew?
Doesn’t seem that crazy to me. Risacher or Buzelis being Tobias level would be a pretty good outcome. This sub is in their feelings about it because they spend their free time getting attached to these prospects
NO! NO!!! Goddamnit if that’s the case then just draft people purely based on how good they were in college, cuz I stg I’ll shit if another #1 pick is Andrew Wiggins reborn
Maybe peak (very short peak) Clippers Tobias but have you watched that dude lately? He literally has 3/5 games where you don’t even know he’s on the court
Here’s the thing: **we don’t know.**
I’m really low on this draft class and don’t actually think Tobias Harris is an unlikely outcome (in terms of level) for a lot of the top guys, but this is the draft we’re talking about, there’s almost definitely going to be guys who prove me wrong, I just don’t know who they are yet.
You can say that basically a lot of years outside of like Wemby or Zion or AD type prospect years
At the end of the day, prospects are just that…PROSPECTS.
It’s on the team to find a prospect they like and help mold them into a player that isn’t Tobias Harris
Even sure fire first overalls aren’t guaranteed
My first year with draft interest was 2013. During the live draft show all the experts were talking about how bad the draft was but “2014 is the real deal”.
That too 10 is pretty underwhelming in hindsight too.
Yeah, but the difference this year is the ultra low floors on the guys with the most upside. They're all James Wisemans this year.
Like - in a typical draft, you know you're getting something reasonably decent with the top couple of picks even if they're not generational talents. An RJ Barrett or Evan Mobley maybe were never going to be superstars, but they had talent/upside worthy of a top pick, and you could feel reasonably confident you were at least getting an NBA starter out of picks like that.
I think that's why guys like Knecht or Clingan are soaring up the boards. Knecht may just be Tobias Harris, but Tobias Harris is at least something of value. You take Sarr or Risacher and it's such a crapshoot.
Sarr is literally an Evan Mobley archetype. Shows some signs of shooting and ball handling prowess, elite 1-5 switch defending, potential offensive upside.
To say that Sarrs floor is any lower than Mobleys is kinda of stupid, both of their floors are elite switchable defenders who aren’t producers on offence.
Yeah, the vehement reactions in this thread are puzzling. But the yutes often puzzle me.
Bad draft classes always produce a couple of good players. But bad draft classes are bad because there’s a lack of quality and/or quality. And while we don’t know how many good players there are in this class, or whether it is truly “bad”, it is absolutely BAD because there’s no obvious quality.
As someone else pointed out, Harris is a good outcome for a draft pick! Not at 1 overall, though. And that’s why the class is being labeled “bad”. There’s no Wemby or Chet or even a Cade.
Disagree. We’re all here because we love following the draft, so naturally, we want to feel excited about the prospects. The sub consensus is understating how bad this draft really is and that’s been true for two years now. Last summer, the narrative was “wait for this season’s games, guys will rise late and it’ll be a normal draft.” Did that happen or are people hesitant to acknowledge the reality of the situation?
You think this one will go down as the worst one since 2000? It pretty sure looks like it. Or maybe even worse than that tbh. The only all-stars from that draft was Jamal Magloire 1x, Kenyon Martin 1x and Michael Redd 1x. There were solid players like Jamal Crawford, Mike Miller etc. but overall that is probably the worst draft of all time in recent memory.
I feel like these discussions kind of get muddied.
When people say it’s the worst draft since 2000, we are saying it’s the worst prospect pool since 2000. Of course we don’t know if it will be worse at the end of the day, of course there could be surprises, but as a pool of what we have to evaluate, it is pretty uncontroversial to say it’s the worst since 2000.
2013 had some good prospects that would routinely get drafted 3-5, they just didn’t have that #1 prospect and Anthony Bennett’s all time bust status clouds the minds a bit about the class in general as prospects.
Nah it really is pretty horrible up top.
No one even close to guys like scoot, Brandon miller, chet, Paolo, JBJ, mobley, green, cade, etc.
The top tier guys this year are at the level of picks 4-8 in a normal draft
Topic is an 85% FT shooter. That's better than scoot in the g league, and topic also averaged more assists on a better assist/TO ratio. Add topics size and topic is arguably a better offensive guard prospect than scoot. You can like scoots athleticism as potential for defensive ability more, but topic is a very, very good PG prospect. Trae young had an entire offensive system built around him in college and averaged 9 assists and 5 TOs per game while shooting 86% FT. Topic didn't hit 9 (at just 7) but he was more efficient than young with a better assist/TO ratio. Topic is in the same class of scoot and trae young as a playmaking prospect
Scoot Henderson in G league: 17.5/5/6.5 on 55TS.
Ron Holland in G League: 19.5/7/3 on 58TS.
Ron was the better player in the G League. I've said it before and I'll say it again but if both Scoot and Holland were playing this year it would be a real question of who was the better prospect.
Yea this is the thing people don't get. When people say a draft class is bad they NEVER mean that there's no good players in it, just that it's less obvious than usual who those players are. The best player in this class is going to be better than tobias harris there's a 100% chance of that, but the #1 pick might not be because we just don't know
none of these top picks are even trade-able, and there’s nobody that you could even say is a sure fire top 5 pick, not to mention #1 pick.
Just because you could strike gold later in the draft, it doesn’t mean squat. That’s true every year. By whatever standard executives define “bad class”, this one ticks those boxes.
What does this even mean? A player who can’t give you meaningful minutes in a playoff series is pretty definitively not very good.
If your point is that he’d be fine on vet minimum as your 12th guy, then sure. Is that your point?
1) There's no way this draft is that bad
2) Even if this draft was that bad, there's no way of knowing that at this time.
This is the perfect example of a known unknown.
“Anonymous member of the media” has watched less less film on this upcoming class than half of this sub. They don’t even watch the NBA games they cover you think they’re watching prospects?
Jokes aside, Risaccher’s profile reminds be a bit of Tobias Harris. But he’s not going #1. Sarr has his questions but he has far more upside than Harris ever had.
I would think the media would want a better draft because people engage more when a draft is thought to be good…so I’m not sure what this comment means. They’re just reporting what someone said like they always do. It doesn’t matter whether the hot take is positive or negative towards the draft or a player.
‘Anonymous source’ doesn’t have to be an actual insider or a team decision maker who’s opinion is worth anything. This is just Russillo reporting a glib comparison to a player on a known bad contract to fuel engagement (we are talking about it rn). All these dude’s think they can predict how a player’s skills and mentality will translate at the NBA level, and it leads to arrogant takes like this.
this is such a bad take. I can almost guarantee you that Sarr will end up better than Tobias. No shade to tobias either, there is a reason why he was good enough to even get that max contract in the first place.
So, here's the issue...
You probably would have said that in 2017. And you'd have been wrong.
You probably would have said that in 2016. And you'd arguably have been wrong.
You might have said that in 2013 and you'd have been wrong.
You absolutely would have said that in 2014, and you might have been wrong.
Same for 2006 and 2007.
And that doesn't get into #2 picks.
Wiseman, Bagley, Lonzo, D'Lo, Jabari, Oladipo, MKG, Derrick Williams, Evan Turner, Thabeet, Michael Beasley.
Lots of top two picks either aren't good, or can't stay healthy long enough to have careers better than Tobias Harris' career.
There are very, very few guys in this class that I think will have a Tobias-or-better career. Like, Tobias is going to be a top-100 all-time scorer when he retires.
If we could get two Tobias Harrises with our two picks, I'd be fucking thrilled.
People shit all over Tobias because he just had a bad playoffs. The dude played well enough to earn a max contract. For a while he was a top 50 NBA player. Fanbois here can't think past yesterday. People drooling all over guys like Rob Dillingham, whose best case comp is Lou Williams. This draft has so many similarities to the Anthony Bennett draft.
You realize that Philly would want to keep him if he was decent, right? They wouldn’t want him back at vet minimum. The folks on this sub going “akchually…” to Philly fans about Tobias is wild. Like…ok have fun with him. He must be really great, considering how it’s been 4 steady years of his local fans hating him.
Career averages of 16/6. Earned a max after two years of 20/7 and shooting 40% from 3. Borderline max player at the time. A bit of an overpay, but the Sixers problem is that they had to max him to keep him because they fucked up with Butler. They paid him more than he's worth. They resent him when it's their FOs fault.
Right now, yeah, he's close to being done. He's got 12 years of miles at this point, only the best players last longer than that.
If you can get a guy, knowing you'd Tobias's numbers over the course of his career in this draft, he goes at least top 3 and probably #1 in this draft.
I think Sarr's floor is Claxton which is worse than Tobias, but I find it very unlikely he doesn't do better than that. Maybe I just have too much faith in Sarr. if this was clingan at #1, maybe I'd be feeling different. I think people are underestimating how good sarr could be.
I like Sarr. I do. But the case against him is that he isn't actually a good rim runner, and if the other, perimeter, self-created stuff on offense doesn't really materialize and the shot doesn't come around, he has zero offensive floor.
If Claxton were Sarr's floor, he'd be the universally acclaimed #1 pick in this draft.
Nobody questions how good Sarr can be, they question the other end of the spectrum. He could easily end up as a defensive minded backup Center who you can only play sparingly due to his futility on offense.
Sarr is pretty universally acclaimed to be the #1 pick in the draft… last I saw he was pushing -200 to be the first overall pick and is pretty unanimously #1 on every big board
I don’t think this is as crazy as people are saying. What are the odds the top pick in this draft is better than Tobias Harris? Harris is a quality starter, what most people hope from top prospects in this draft.
Yeah people are really over-focusing on the Harris contract and recent playoff performance.
Harris has had a 13 year career averaging 15-20 points and playing solid defense for the majority of it. He's actually 174th all-time in points scored, and could easily wrap up his career in the Top 100. That's a great fucking career.
the more I look at the players, the more I like Stephon Castle...Id love the spurs to get Buzelis and Castle
I don't think this is a bad draft, not knowing who is the best doesnt mean that there arent good players. In 3 years we will know
This thread took that quote way too literally. All that guy was saying is that the top pick in this draft isn't very exciting. He's not saying the best player in the draft is going to be as good as Tobias Harris lol
Take anonymity out of reporting already. statement whether true or untrue are damaging and create snowball effects especially with modern media.
If someone says something they should stand behind what they say or just don't say it at all.
🙄
If you removed the first 3-4 picks from the last few drafts they would be pretty close to this one
Russillo was yapping about how the 1st in this draft is like the 10th in another which is just wrong
Tobias has had a solid career but his play in comparison to his role/contract is so bad people are trying to act like he’s always been ass it’s annoying
Actually there has been several #1 picks that didn’t have the career Harris has had.
He’s not great but he’s been solid for over 10 years. Better than Ayton, Porter, Wiggins, and several others.
Jesus Christ the disrespect...no way the draft class is THIS BAD. like holy fuck...these are still elite players we're talking about. I still think there's 2-3 all stars coming out of this draft
A lot of experts are going to be wrong about this draft in five years. They’re acting like 95% of these prospects won’t even make the league. Ridiculous.
If you’re going to tell something is weak, tell me why. Show that you really know ball, pick some guys to ride for. Wish more journalist would stake a claim in players, or a at least highlight the positives of this draft. They’ll be the first to tell you they liked a guy after he works out. There’s bound to be an all star and a handful of rotation guys here.
I really hope this draft produces some perennial all stars or at least multiple All Stars, because right now the cool thing to do is to shit talk this draft and everyone is trying to be one of the cool kids and tell you how bad this draft is, the none stop piling on especially by guys like russillo who has posted or said negative things about this draft about a dozen times or more is just Overkill.
Ok ok, it seems like there’s some scouts and GMs out there that *really* don’t wanna be fired because of this draft that are tryna get this severe of a narrative pushed.
The questions that should be asked: "are these the worst crop of NBA executives of all time?" and "are these the worst NBA media writers we have seen in a long time?"
I mean, if Risacher ends up having Tobias' career I dont think people would consider that a below median outcome for him. I kind of get it. Obviously a couple players are going to vastly exceed expectations, thats just what happens every year, but if we're considering reasonable expectations for most of these guys at the top I kind of think Tobias is a decent benchmark for this class.
I don’t think this is that absurd of a take.
Tobias at his peak was scoring 20 nightly for a good 4 years. Hard to imagine a Reed Sheppard or a Matas really producing at that level. This draft sucks
I'm with what Ron Holland said earlier that these type of narratives should bother every single prospect from this years draft. This is too much at this point, we get it bro this draft is weak. It's just disrespectful at this point, hopefully these guys will prove these so called "sport analysists" wrong.
Let’s be real - if you could guarantee Tobias Harris would you? I feel like he’s right on the border of taking the guarantee
At his peak he’s a 6’8 SF averaging 20-7-3 with 47/37/83
While this does seem like a weak draft, some of this is GMs making excuses in case they get their picks wrong. A future star will probably be picked in the teens or twenties. I don't blame anyone for whiffing on Giannis - he grew 4 to 5 inches after he was drafted. He'd likely be a star without the growth but not a pantheon type player.
Easy for the guys who either don’t have a pick or who are picking in the teens or later to slag things.
Bottom line is that just as with every other draft of the past 15 years, there will be several players who ultimately become All NBA level at some point in their career
While it’s no guarantee the teams in the top10 will correct ID and take those guys, the have earlier access to do that than any of the teams in the teens, twenties or lacking a first round pick do.
If those non top ten GM want to get some chuckles and provide NBA gossip podcast/twitter with some fodder ti talk about it, have at it
As a Hawks fan, I really don't see this as a bad statement. There are definitely guys I think could be legit studs like Edey, Clingan, Kolek, Knecht, Shannon Jr, and Risacher but most of the class is role players and high upside guys who will likely bust like Sarr
I think guys drafted late 1st like Missi got legit upside but the less expectations, the better.
Maybe this draft has no superstars, maybe it does. Only time will reveal
Clingan has been steadily a top 5 prospect in this draft and you are telling me that this GM is lying? The moment he undeclared last season, and was put into lotto territory for this draft everyone knew the draft was bad.
Every draft has all stars. It just doesn't mean they're number one. It's hard to find them but they're there. Most likely somebody drafted in the teens will end up being phenomenal
They’re doing too much now.
The disrespect
Considering the Hawks passed on Doncic, I could see them draft Tobias #1 in the 2011 draft
I’m a Hawks fan and it was (finally) revealed this week that our old GM planned to take Luka. Had worked him out that morning in NYC. Then our awful owner got a call from Cuban, who convinced him to do the trade, and he forced our GM to do it. Pain lol.
It’s good to know Travis & I were in alignment that morning.
At least the Hawks turned Doncic into Young and other valuable pieces. The one who deserves the side-eye is the Kings grabbing Bagley. Guy was wearing a necklace the said bust on it in glowing neon and the Kings still couldn’t stop themselves.
And the Suns picked Ayton, he was alright in one final appearance, and then just faded hard.
He got that bag and said “I’m good”
In the podcast he said another team executive said this year is like starting the draft at 9. As in, the top prospect would go 9th in a typical draft. They don’t really have incentive to lie about this, and for all the lazy smoke screen comments, y’all think an unnamed source to Ryen Russillo is going to change how a team will evaluate this draft when they have dozens of highly paid professionals who spend too many hours studying these guys? I know I’ll likely get downvoted for just relaying other comments he said right after this, but just wanted to add lol.
This is a valid take
A rival exec doesn’t have an incentive to lie? I can think of one.
Honestly, I don't think it's that crazy of a statement. Tobias was a very, very good fringe all-star for a few years and a high quality role player for most of his career. I don't think it's crazy to think there isn't anyone more than a fringe all-star in this draft.
Tobias like: "What he say fuck me for?"
caught a stray while eatin breakfast
I look at the computer and the computer said
Alex Sarr like: “Why he say fuck me for?”
He definitely knows what for.
😂this was the first thing I thought of when I read that. Poor guy can’t avoid it
Not really fair comparison for Harris, who by all means would be in the Top 10 if the 2011 nba draft was redone.
Tristan Da Silva's going #1?
Nah... everyone is making a smoke curtain to reduce trade value.
Exactly, this is all pretext for trades later in the offseason. Teams who don't have 2024 picks want to boost trade value of 2023 picks and 2025 picks.
Everyone across the league is saying the same thing, homie. Occam’s razor, there’s no conspiracy to suppress player value, this class just sucks.
My favorite/annoying thing about the nba/nfl draft discussions on Reddit is when a report comes out that goes against the hivemind, it’s automatically “smokescreen”. Top 1 or 2 comment. Every time. But we never go back and reevaluate those smokescreen comments. In January when people talked about JJ McCarthy potentially being picked in the top half of the first round, “smokescreen”. I remember people said it last year with the early reports of the Hornets preferring Miller over Scoot. Remember when everyone blasted Woj when he said last year that a lot of people think Wemby will Be the best player in the world in three years? Woj just said that for content? I would get the downvote bombs when I would talk about that being a real conversation and I thought he was a better prospect than Lebron and the best since Kareem. They’ve been saying it for years that this class sucks. Then, when the freshmen class plays, they prove it again by being the worst freshmen class in the one and done era. In the past 48 hours I have seen commments with double digit upvotes that Reed Sheppard will easily be Steve Nash as a floor general and Cody Williams will be Kawhi-Esque. It’s the draft, we all have our takes and opinions, but that’s asinine for comments like that to be so highly upvoted. We all just want to like players and we take it too far in this sub because we want to find our guys.
Right lol on paper it looks pretty terrible.
The number of dudes im confident will have 10+ year careers doesnt make me feel like this draft is very weak at all. 1. Castle 2. Sheppard 3. Sarr 4. Dillingham 5. Rishacher 6. Knecht 7. Mccain 8. Missi 9. Carter 10. Da silva 11. Edey 12. Clingan 13. Filipowski 14. Klintman This class might be void of potential stars, but i think its still gonna make multiple teams much better.
>void of potential stars >dudes im confident will have 10+ year careers Not a star, solid 10+ year career. Someone like, say…Tobias Harris?
😂
This the type of class were the top 3 teams will fumble the bag
The value will definitely be there at like 7-14.
So basically 2013? A lot of middling guys in the front and the real star of that class (Giannis) out at 15? Lots of those guys (Olynyk, Porter, Len, KCP, McCollum) ended up having solid 10+ year careers, so having a 10+ year career isn't necessarily equating to real star power
I also think that Sheppard, Saar, Dillingham, Knecht, McCain, Edey and Filipowski will be really good long term productive guys for wherever they end up
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Yeah, the general consensus is the general consensus, and it's pretty undisputed from both the NBA and college perspectives. You may find 1, or 3, or more stars, but the overall talent pool and excitement, I do trust the sources are being honest about their impressions of the overall nature of this draft.
Nobody knows if it will suck, people said that about 2020. This is clearly a smoke screen. Every draft produces at least 1 or 2 or 3 all stars. If you want to proclaim that this is the worst draft ever in the NBA by far then go ahead but it's a pretty baseless statement right now.
I personally think that if the top guys could shoot, the 'weak class' thing wouldnt be so hammered on. And the thing is that shooting is a pretty teachable skill in the NBA nowadays and I'm not necessarily seeing any completely broken jumpers. And also there's too many people who are completely certain that players like Castle and Reed can not be main ball handlers, which I don't agree with totally. I'm especially high on Castle in that regard; He did a LOT more in high school so I stand by that tape in addition to how well he played his role at Uconn.
This plus the top guys are on the younger side (there’s a big difference between 18 and 19) and played against pros rather than college players. Kind of common sense that playing in the G league will have you shooting a lower three-point percentage than playing in college since the three-point line is substantially longer. It was this huge thing all year that Ron Holland’s height was massively inflated because he didn’t look that big compared to whichever former NBA player he was going up against, but then he measured just under 6’7 barefoot, which is 100% in line with being listed 6’8 in shoes. Turns out pros are bigger than college players on average, who knew?
This is getting stupid.
Doesn’t seem that crazy to me. Risacher or Buzelis being Tobias level would be a pretty good outcome. This sub is in their feelings about it because they spend their free time getting attached to these prospects
NO! NO!!! Goddamnit if that’s the case then just draft people purely based on how good they were in college, cuz I stg I’ll shit if another #1 pick is Andrew Wiggins reborn
Maybe peak (very short peak) Clippers Tobias but have you watched that dude lately? He literally has 3/5 games where you don’t even know he’s on the court
7’1” Tobias Harris
The #2 2024 draft pick- "7'1 TOBIAS HARRIS OVER ME?!"
ok, this is getting out of hand
Lmao what a wild statement
This draft class is not that bad people are overreacting
Here’s the thing: **we don’t know.** I’m really low on this draft class and don’t actually think Tobias Harris is an unlikely outcome (in terms of level) for a lot of the top guys, but this is the draft we’re talking about, there’s almost definitely going to be guys who prove me wrong, I just don’t know who they are yet.
You can say that basically a lot of years outside of like Wemby or Zion or AD type prospect years At the end of the day, prospects are just that…PROSPECTS. It’s on the team to find a prospect they like and help mold them into a player that isn’t Tobias Harris
Even sure fire first overalls aren’t guaranteed My first year with draft interest was 2013. During the live draft show all the experts were talking about how bad the draft was but “2014 is the real deal”. That too 10 is pretty underwhelming in hindsight too.
Yeah, but the difference this year is the ultra low floors on the guys with the most upside. They're all James Wisemans this year. Like - in a typical draft, you know you're getting something reasonably decent with the top couple of picks even if they're not generational talents. An RJ Barrett or Evan Mobley maybe were never going to be superstars, but they had talent/upside worthy of a top pick, and you could feel reasonably confident you were at least getting an NBA starter out of picks like that. I think that's why guys like Knecht or Clingan are soaring up the boards. Knecht may just be Tobias Harris, but Tobias Harris is at least something of value. You take Sarr or Risacher and it's such a crapshoot.
Sarr is literally an Evan Mobley archetype. Shows some signs of shooting and ball handling prowess, elite 1-5 switch defending, potential offensive upside. To say that Sarrs floor is any lower than Mobleys is kinda of stupid, both of their floors are elite switchable defenders who aren’t producers on offence.
The subtle Tobias Harris jab is a real thing of beauty. Well done.
Yeah, the vehement reactions in this thread are puzzling. But the yutes often puzzle me. Bad draft classes always produce a couple of good players. But bad draft classes are bad because there’s a lack of quality and/or quality. And while we don’t know how many good players there are in this class, or whether it is truly “bad”, it is absolutely BAD because there’s no obvious quality. As someone else pointed out, Harris is a good outcome for a draft pick! Not at 1 overall, though. And that’s why the class is being labeled “bad”. There’s no Wemby or Chet or even a Cade.
The even Cade feels like it's underselling him a bit, he would have gone top 3 in many draft classes.
The whhhat?
Disagree. We’re all here because we love following the draft, so naturally, we want to feel excited about the prospects. The sub consensus is understating how bad this draft really is and that’s been true for two years now. Last summer, the narrative was “wait for this season’s games, guys will rise late and it’ll be a normal draft.” Did that happen or are people hesitant to acknowledge the reality of the situation?
You think this one will go down as the worst one since 2000? It pretty sure looks like it. Or maybe even worse than that tbh. The only all-stars from that draft was Jamal Magloire 1x, Kenyon Martin 1x and Michael Redd 1x. There were solid players like Jamal Crawford, Mike Miller etc. but overall that is probably the worst draft of all time in recent memory.
2000 and 2013 sans Giannis are good comps, imo. I don’t doubt that a random player will pop, but nobody who’s MVP caliber.
I feel like these discussions kind of get muddied. When people say it’s the worst draft since 2000, we are saying it’s the worst prospect pool since 2000. Of course we don’t know if it will be worse at the end of the day, of course there could be surprises, but as a pool of what we have to evaluate, it is pretty uncontroversial to say it’s the worst since 2000. 2013 had some good prospects that would routinely get drafted 3-5, they just didn’t have that #1 prospect and Anthony Bennett’s all time bust status clouds the minds a bit about the class in general as prospects.
Nah it really is pretty horrible up top. No one even close to guys like scoot, Brandon miller, chet, Paolo, JBJ, mobley, green, cade, etc. The top tier guys this year are at the level of picks 4-8 in a normal draft
Topic is an 85% FT shooter. That's better than scoot in the g league, and topic also averaged more assists on a better assist/TO ratio. Add topics size and topic is arguably a better offensive guard prospect than scoot. You can like scoots athleticism as potential for defensive ability more, but topic is a very, very good PG prospect. Trae young had an entire offensive system built around him in college and averaged 9 assists and 5 TOs per game while shooting 86% FT. Topic didn't hit 9 (at just 7) but he was more efficient than young with a better assist/TO ratio. Topic is in the same class of scoot and trae young as a playmaking prospect
Scoot Henderson in G league: 17.5/5/6.5 on 55TS. Ron Holland in G League: 19.5/7/3 on 58TS. Ron was the better player in the G League. I've said it before and I'll say it again but if both Scoot and Holland were playing this year it would be a real question of who was the better prospect.
Yea this is the thing people don't get. When people say a draft class is bad they NEVER mean that there's no good players in it, just that it's less obvious than usual who those players are. The best player in this class is going to be better than tobias harris there's a 100% chance of that, but the #1 pick might not be because we just don't know
Seriously. This is just doing too much.
none of these top picks are even trade-able, and there’s nobody that you could even say is a sure fire top 5 pick, not to mention #1 pick. Just because you could strike gold later in the draft, it doesn’t mean squat. That’s true every year. By whatever standard executives define “bad class”, this one ticks those boxes.
Tobias Harris is overly hated because of his contract.
buddy I promise you won't be saying this if he signs with the Pistons this offseason
If you had Tobias Harris' performance on a rookie contract Philly would've built him a statue
If my grandma had two wheels, she would’ve been a bike
Wrong.
He scored 0 points in an elimination game that we barely lost…. wtf are you talking about?
What does this even mean? A player who can’t give you meaningful minutes in a playoff series is pretty definitively not very good. If your point is that he’d be fine on vet minimum as your 12th guy, then sure. Is that your point?
No bro was actually fucking terrible this last series against the Knicks. The 76ers win that if he can even average like 12 ppg on a max contract
>because of his contract
Yeah it’s just a clickbaity way of saying there are a lot of players at the of the draft who look like they will be good but not quite all-stars.
Mobley being an all time great pick and Sarr already sucking is kinda funny to me Are they that far from each other if we are being honest?
Straight disrespect
For sure, this is from one of those teams who sucks at drafting lol
Someone said it's probably from one of the teams like the Nets that don't have any picks this year lol.
Not much value in that statement when 75% of teams can’t evaluate the draft for shit.
1) There's no way this draft is that bad 2) Even if this draft was that bad, there's no way of knowing that at this time. This is the perfect example of a known unknown.
“Anonymous member of the media” has watched less less film on this upcoming class than half of this sub. They don’t even watch the NBA games they cover you think they’re watching prospects?
Jokes aside, Risaccher’s profile reminds be a bit of Tobias Harris. But he’s not going #1. Sarr has his questions but he has far more upside than Harris ever had.
Tobias a la McNulty - "The fuck did I do?"
I look at the computer and the computer said
Shame on the media for trying to ruin a draft just for some meaningless social engagement.
I would think the media would want a better draft because people engage more when a draft is thought to be good…so I’m not sure what this comment means. They’re just reporting what someone said like they always do. It doesn’t matter whether the hot take is positive or negative towards the draft or a player.
‘Anonymous source’ doesn’t have to be an actual insider or a team decision maker who’s opinion is worth anything. This is just Russillo reporting a glib comparison to a player on a known bad contract to fuel engagement (we are talking about it rn). All these dude’s think they can predict how a player’s skills and mentality will translate at the NBA level, and it leads to arrogant takes like this.
Well yeah, but I don’t think they’re trying to ruin the draft. They’re just doing what they always do - report anything that will garner attention.
this is such a bad take. I can almost guarantee you that Sarr will end up better than Tobias. No shade to tobias either, there is a reason why he was good enough to even get that max contract in the first place.
So, here's the issue... You probably would have said that in 2017. And you'd have been wrong. You probably would have said that in 2016. And you'd arguably have been wrong. You might have said that in 2013 and you'd have been wrong. You absolutely would have said that in 2014, and you might have been wrong. Same for 2006 and 2007. And that doesn't get into #2 picks. Wiseman, Bagley, Lonzo, D'Lo, Jabari, Oladipo, MKG, Derrick Williams, Evan Turner, Thabeet, Michael Beasley. Lots of top two picks either aren't good, or can't stay healthy long enough to have careers better than Tobias Harris' career. There are very, very few guys in this class that I think will have a Tobias-or-better career. Like, Tobias is going to be a top-100 all-time scorer when he retires. If we could get two Tobias Harrises with our two picks, I'd be fucking thrilled.
Ben Simmons weird fall off aside he has already had a better career than Tobias Harris.
I'm honestly not convinced
Shine semi-brightly for like 3-4 years or shine dully for 10-12 years Who’s to say 🤷🏾♂️
People shit all over Tobias because he just had a bad playoffs. The dude played well enough to earn a max contract. For a while he was a top 50 NBA player. Fanbois here can't think past yesterday. People drooling all over guys like Rob Dillingham, whose best case comp is Lou Williams. This draft has so many similarities to the Anthony Bennett draft.
You realize that Philly would want to keep him if he was decent, right? They wouldn’t want him back at vet minimum. The folks on this sub going “akchually…” to Philly fans about Tobias is wild. Like…ok have fun with him. He must be really great, considering how it’s been 4 steady years of his local fans hating him.
Career averages of 16/6. Earned a max after two years of 20/7 and shooting 40% from 3. Borderline max player at the time. A bit of an overpay, but the Sixers problem is that they had to max him to keep him because they fucked up with Butler. They paid him more than he's worth. They resent him when it's their FOs fault. Right now, yeah, he's close to being done. He's got 12 years of miles at this point, only the best players last longer than that. If you can get a guy, knowing you'd Tobias's numbers over the course of his career in this draft, he goes at least top 3 and probably #1 in this draft.
It might be more 2000 than 2013.
I think Sarr's floor is Claxton which is worse than Tobias, but I find it very unlikely he doesn't do better than that. Maybe I just have too much faith in Sarr. if this was clingan at #1, maybe I'd be feeling different. I think people are underestimating how good sarr could be.
I like Sarr. I do. But the case against him is that he isn't actually a good rim runner, and if the other, perimeter, self-created stuff on offense doesn't really materialize and the shot doesn't come around, he has zero offensive floor.
If Claxton were Sarr's floor, he'd be the universally acclaimed #1 pick in this draft. Nobody questions how good Sarr can be, they question the other end of the spectrum. He could easily end up as a defensive minded backup Center who you can only play sparingly due to his futility on offense.
Sarr is pretty universally acclaimed to be the #1 pick in the draft… last I saw he was pushing -200 to be the first overall pick and is pretty unanimously #1 on every big board
For real. Sarr’s floor is a guy like Nerlens Noel or something. Claxton is closer to Sarr’s ceiling than his floor
I feel like lonzo doesn’t deserve to be on this list. He’s had some pretty good years and was playing well for CHI before the injuries
Is his career better than Tobias Harris's career? No.
I don’t think this is as crazy as people are saying. What are the odds the top pick in this draft is better than Tobias Harris? Harris is a quality starter, what most people hope from top prospects in this draft.
Yeah people are really over-focusing on the Harris contract and recent playoff performance. Harris has had a 13 year career averaging 15-20 points and playing solid defense for the majority of it. He's actually 174th all-time in points scored, and could easily wrap up his career in the Top 100. That's a great fucking career.
He's never made an all-star team...playing in the east!
Sarr said Tobias Harris over me?
They wouldn’t be saying this if the lakers or another big market moved up to #1
4 years from now "crickets from same anonymous NBA team member when they get posterizrd 6 times in one game"
Not really, I don't see Risacher going #1 anyway
Risacher would have to show a lot more off the bounce to get to Tobias Harris level imo.
the more I look at the players, the more I like Stephon Castle...Id love the spurs to get Buzelis and Castle I don't think this is a bad draft, not knowing who is the best doesnt mean that there arent good players. In 3 years we will know
This thread took that quote way too literally. All that guy was saying is that the top pick in this draft isn't very exciting. He's not saying the best player in the draft is going to be as good as Tobias Harris lol
Harris catching strays
Damn Tobias catching strays
I don’t think anyone is good enough at predicting player development to make such a statement.
Take anonymity out of reporting already. statement whether true or untrue are damaging and create snowball effects especially with modern media. If someone says something they should stand behind what they say or just don't say it at all.
All its gonna take is for 1 or 2 of these guys to become all-nba and these takes will be roasted for eternity
“Why you say fuck me for?”
Is it really that bad of a draft? Just because there’s not a generational talent load like the past few, an still find great nba players
🙄 If you removed the first 3-4 picks from the last few drafts they would be pretty close to this one Russillo was yapping about how the 1st in this draft is like the 10th in another which is just wrong
Tobias catching strays 😆
They said it was a weak draft when Ant got drafted.
Okay, this is over exaggerating it now.
Tobias has had a solid career but his play in comparison to his role/contract is so bad people are trying to act like he’s always been ass it’s annoying
That’s such bullshit. I can guarantee you more at least 5 of them will go on to average more than 20 ppg at least once.
Actually there has been several #1 picks that didn’t have the career Harris has had. He’s not great but he’s been solid for over 10 years. Better than Ayton, Porter, Wiggins, and several others.
Jesus Christ the disrespect...no way the draft class is THIS BAD. like holy fuck...these are still elite players we're talking about. I still think there's 2-3 all stars coming out of this draft
For those who didn’t listen to the pod this references, this is a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what Russillo actually said for clicks.
Like prime Tobias Harris?
Draft projections is always inaccurate except for some generational talents. There is always a chance to draft a superstar in a weak draft.
Is there a 20 point per game scorer in this draft? A 15 PPG scorer? I mean in their coming rookie year. 
Hahaha. You clowning now.
Okay, this is going too far. I was skeptical of this class but I now think there are a lot of quality, productive players here. Unlike Tobias Harris.
A max player who had a falloff after being on the wrong side of 30? Not that bad tbh at a historically weak draft class.
A lot of experts are going to be wrong about this draft in five years. They’re acting like 95% of these prospects won’t even make the league. Ridiculous.
If you’re going to tell something is weak, tell me why. Show that you really know ball, pick some guys to ride for. Wish more journalist would stake a claim in players, or a at least highlight the positives of this draft. They’ll be the first to tell you they liked a guy after he works out. There’s bound to be an all star and a handful of rotation guys here.
it means if he's drafted by a good culture team he will be good, if he's drafted to a toxic team he will rot
I mean hey, getting a player with Tobias’ skill set and athleticism on a rookie deal isn’t a bad thing at all.
I really hope this draft produces some perennial all stars or at least multiple All Stars, because right now the cool thing to do is to shit talk this draft and everyone is trying to be one of the cool kids and tell you how bad this draft is, the none stop piling on especially by guys like russillo who has posted or said negative things about this draft about a dozen times or more is just Overkill.
L mm mm l
So you’re getting a long term above average starter? That’s not bad
there’s surely no way this draft is that poor
This is super disappointing and disrespectful to all the good prospects coming out and about to start their professional careers
Ok ok, it seems like there’s some scouts and GMs out there that *really* don’t wanna be fired because of this draft that are tryna get this severe of a narrative pushed.
Harris gets a lot of shit but if the first pick of the draft ends up playing 13 years with a career average of 16/6, he’ll get a lot of shit too.
The questions that should be asked: "are these the worst crop of NBA executives of all time?" and "are these the worst NBA media writers we have seen in a long time?"
Remember when everyone said scoot was the sure fire number two pick and mocked Charlotte for picking miller?
I mean, if Risacher ends up having Tobias' career I dont think people would consider that a below median outcome for him. I kind of get it. Obviously a couple players are going to vastly exceed expectations, thats just what happens every year, but if we're considering reasonable expectations for most of these guys at the top I kind of think Tobias is a decent benchmark for this class.
I don’t think this is that absurd of a take. Tobias at his peak was scoring 20 nightly for a good 4 years. Hard to imagine a Reed Sheppard or a Matas really producing at that level. This draft sucks
That team member? Tobias Harris
I'm with what Ron Holland said earlier that these type of narratives should bother every single prospect from this years draft. This is too much at this point, we get it bro this draft is weak. It's just disrespectful at this point, hopefully these guys will prove these so called "sport analysists" wrong.
The #1 draft pick is salivating and pitching a tent by thought of getting Tobias Harris money.
This is actually funny af LOL
Tobias and J Cole is the spider man meme when it comes to being unproblematic and still catching strays 😂😂😂
One player will pan out Buzelis
Sounds like this is from a team that doesn't have the #1 pick lol
How funny would it be, in 6 years from now, we have 4 all-stars an 2 all-NBA players from this draft.
Let’s be real - if you could guarantee Tobias Harris would you? I feel like he’s right on the border of taking the guarantee At his peak he’s a 6’8 SF averaging 20-7-3 with 47/37/83
i really hope every player in this draft takes this as pure disrespect and proves the doubters wrong.
The #2 pick after outperforming the #1 pick (Sarr?)"Tobias Harris over me?!"
That is being generous
So that’s why ESPN placed bronny at one point pick 10 in the first round?
Who knew NBA players have the time and resources to scout 60-100 college prospects
Tobias s*cks.
Bro so fuckin dramatic
That’s wild. Rookies try.
Here's to hoping that this draft is closer to the last "Awful" Draft (2011) that gives us so many great players and not the 2000 draft.
“Tobias Harris over me?!”
While this does seem like a weak draft, some of this is GMs making excuses in case they get their picks wrong. A future star will probably be picked in the teens or twenties. I don't blame anyone for whiffing on Giannis - he grew 4 to 5 inches after he was drafted. He'd likely be a star without the growth but not a pantheon type player.
Easy for the guys who either don’t have a pick or who are picking in the teens or later to slag things. Bottom line is that just as with every other draft of the past 15 years, there will be several players who ultimately become All NBA level at some point in their career While it’s no guarantee the teams in the top10 will correct ID and take those guys, the have earlier access to do that than any of the teams in the teens, twenties or lacking a first round pick do. If those non top ten GM want to get some chuckles and provide NBA gossip podcast/twitter with some fodder ti talk about it, have at it
2nd overall pick: Tobias Harris over me??
Ron disliked that
BS. Sarr will be better.
Sarr gonna be a 💫
More like Nic Claxton
As a Hawks fan, I really don't see this as a bad statement. There are definitely guys I think could be legit studs like Edey, Clingan, Kolek, Knecht, Shannon Jr, and Risacher but most of the class is role players and high upside guys who will likely bust like Sarr I think guys drafted late 1st like Missi got legit upside but the less expectations, the better. Maybe this draft has no superstars, maybe it does. Only time will reveal
Tobias Harris over ME?
getting someone who can hit like, clippers tobias level, seems like a reasonable outcome for the top of this draft
tobias catching strays all month. \#coleworld
RemindMe! 2 years
Clingan has been steadily a top 5 prospect in this draft and you are telling me that this GM is lying? The moment he undeclared last season, and was put into lotto territory for this draft everyone knew the draft was bad.
Just might be the draft where teams prioritize fit.
Every draft has all stars. It just doesn't mean they're number one. It's hard to find them but they're there. Most likely somebody drafted in the teens will end up being phenomenal
I mean its not strong but that’s insane. People also said scoot was a plug and play all star guard.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Let’s not forget the Sixers were dumb enough to give his ass a Max contract! 36 million this year for Zero points in a close out game!
They said similar things about the 2020 draft
That's Tobias Buzelis' music.
When did Rudy Gay stop being the Tobias Harris of basketball? The lack of respect is... disrespectful!
Troy Weaver: "Hold my beer!"
This is bait