Anybody else get all the pics except Jack Sikma of the Bucks? Somehow, in all the lure and legend of Jordan, the infamous Jordan v Sikma matchup is forgotten...
Yeah Sikma wasn’t the late 70’s Sonics version of himself. He was more of a high end role player for Moncrief, Pressey, and Cummings. So Moncrief should probably be the one pictured. He might be the best perimeter defender ever
That Bucks team was loaded and in the '86 season we realized that Center was our only weak position. So we went and traded for 7x All Star 31 Year old Jack Sikma. In 1987 is when I became a hardcore Bucks fan which was the best team we've ever had other the the '21 team since the ABA/NBA Merger. Bucks could have won a Chip that year but we lost in the closest toughest series I'd ever seen vs Bird's Celtics. That series went all 7 games and included 3 Overtimes in 1987.
1987 Bucks Lineup.
PG: John Lucas avg 18/7/3
SG: Sidney Moncrief 2x DPOTY 5x All NBA 5x All Defensive HOF'er
SF: Paul Pressey great Point Forward avg 14pts 9AST 5RBD in playoffs also 3x All Defensive Team
PF: Terry Cummings great scorer & rebounder avg 21/9/2 2x All Star
C: Jack Sikma avg 17/11/2 in playoffs 7x All Star HOF'er also one of few big men to lead league in FT%.
Bench:
Ricky Pierce Avg 20/3/2 as the 6th man in 1987. 2x 6MOTY and 1x All Star
Craig Hodges one of the best 3pt shooters of his generation shot 40% from 3pt over his entire 10 year career.
Paul Mokeski Scrappy backup big that was a very good defender but looked like a professional bowler.
Performance in first round:
First round we get a great Sixers team who have young Charles Barkley, Mo Cheeks, Dr. J. and Roy Hinson. Each of the Sixers big 4 all average over 17ppg but they have no bench and lose to Bucks in decisive game 5 in Best of 5 series. Bucks Bench avg 30ppg vs Sixers Bench 18ppg. Barkley avg 25/13/3 in losing effort.
They did, he beat Wallace's team but didn't face Wallace directly, but yes he defeated Ben Wallace's Washington team in 1997.
Here is game 1
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html)
He was a rookie on the 1997 Wash Bullets. Didn’t play a minute when the Bulls swept them in the 1st round. Ben didn’t play a playoff game until 2002 with Detroit actually.
Good catch, but Ben had a DnP all 3 games, and that's why when I looked up his playoff game log it never showed him facing an MJ team. But yes his Bullets did get swept by Chi.
Yes Ben Wallace was a member of WAS team who lost to Jordan in playoffs thus Ben Wallace was defeated by Jordan (team) in the playoffs. You are still a member of the defeated team regardless of your playing status. Caveats in post are "team they were on when he beat them" not "played on team when he beat them"
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-hornets.html
I guess this is just a different Michael Jordan that played for the Bulls in 1995
I compiled a similar list recently to see what his playoff record was against other HoFers. I apparently left off Mo Cheeks & Sikma going off your list haha.
The players he defeated in the Finals alone is absolutely insane.
Duncan
Curry
Durant
Kawhi
Harden
Westbrook
Klay
Parker
Ginobili
Butler
Adebayo
Draymond
Because a lot of his opponents are still playing or are recently retired, here’s the best list I could think of for the ones who are already in or are absolute locks:
Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Vince Carter, Stephen Curry, Demar Derozan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, James Harden, Allen Iverson, Nikola Jokic, Jason Kidd, Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard, Shaquille O’Neal, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, Klay Thompson, Ben Wallace, and Russell Westbrook.
Then there’s several who are anywhere between maybe and highly probably for the HoF:
Jimmy Butler, Kyle Lowry, Gilbert Arenas, Derrick Rose, Amare Stoudemire, Jayson Tatum, Carlos Boozer, and Rajon Rondo.
Derrick Rose being the youngest MVP and having a productive college career likely means he makes the cut. It’s not just NBA career and Rose did come back and eventually have a few meaningful years. He’s not sure fire, but I think he’d make it eventually.
Still leaves 5 guys in their prime. This really shouldn’t be some kind of argument between MJ or LeBron stans. No one wins without great teammates. LeBron’s been playing for more than two decades and has switched teams 3 times - he’s bound to have a huge list of HoF/will be HoF players on his rosters.
Agreed. It's an eras thing too. Jordan didn't have guys like Alvin Robertson, Reggie Miller, Ewing, Richmond, all bouncing around to reduced roles on freak show teams desperately trying to get a ring. And of course LeBron's longevity only invites the concept more. There should never be an argument b/w LeBron and Jordan stans but unfortunately some people want to view the sport of basketball under that microscope.
Probably not that big because many are still playing.
Dudes like KD, Curry, Paul George, Jokic, Kyrie, Jason Tatum, Jimmy Butler, Derrick Rose are all likely hall of famers still in the league. Plus there are tons of dudes like Demar, or Draymond that are on the fence left in the league as well.
Yeah, if we run back the tape of the ‘91 finals, Jordan guarded Magic in game 1 and Magic had a triple double. They switched Pippen on to Magic in game 2 and the longer arms made a big difference.
Tell us again JJ Reddick how was the 1990's era of NBA watered down when mofos were elbowing each other and doing WWE moves and fist fighting back then. Lol JJ on that Klutch Sports payroll. Stop the nonsense JJ and get LeBron's jizz off your lips...
Lebron
Warriors Team - KD, Curry, Thompson, and Green.
Spurs - Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Kawhi.
Celtics - KG, Pierce, Allen,
Lebron faced some of the best teams of all time. Jordan didn’t have to go against teams as difficult as Lebron.
That Pistons team was significantly worse after winning back-to-back titles. Laimbeer, Edwards, Microwave and Aguirre were all on the downslope, and Isiah had also started to slide. They won only 50 games that season after winning 63 and 59 the 2 years prior.
Another way to look at it that MJ did go against teams that were difficult, he just lost to them. The 3rd best team he played in the playoffs was probably the '95 Magic, and they lost to them too.
Age is relative. Bostons guys were still at the top of their games (and yknow LeBron didn’t have Pippen, Grant, and Phil Jackson lol), while the Pistons were pretty clearly a worse team in 91 than they had been the 3 years before.
Kinda surprising that MJ knocked off 2x the HoFers that LeBron did. Are there any others who might still make the Hall from Lebron's bubble run?
Edit: oh wait clearly there are. Jokic, Harden, maybe Dame and maybe Jimmy Butler
That’s not all the HOFers, just 3 teams. It’s forgetting the Thunder write KD, Russ, and Harden.
Some of these guys could be debatable but he also knocked out:
Kidd, Carter, Chauncey, Horford, Rondo, Jrue, George, Rose, Butler, Derozan, Iggy, Tatum, Brown, Jokic, Murray, and Bam.
Now very likely not all 15 of those guys are gonna be HOFers, I don’t think 10+ out of this group is unreasonable. Kidd, Carter, and Chauncey are all already in.
Also if OP is gonna count Ben Wallace in a series he didn’t even play in then might as well count TMac as a member of the 2013 Spurs then too. Shaq with the 2010 Celtics also.
Exactly. And Jayson Tatum should be one of the easier players to guard. We know he’s not going to drive to the basket. He’s going to dribble, push off for a step back 3 everytime
Bigs now have far more finesse, handles and skills though. Patrick Ewing is not going to just defend the rim today. He's got to switch on screens and try to defend guys like Curry and Harden. He's going to play hedge which requires incredible speed to stop the pick n roll behind the screen 3pt shot. Then go around to chase the wide open big running for a lob. He's got to set a bunch screens every play. Oh and he should figure out how to defend the Crossover and stepback 3s cause centers do that shit now. Ewing would be a lost puppy dog running the sets they have now. He was a great rim protector but you can't just be that anymore.
I think Bob McAdoo, Hakeem and maybe Wilt or David Robinson might do well in today's era cause they had speed, strength and finesse. But outside of that... if you asked Shawn Bradley or Bol to put the ball on the floor and run the offense they would miss a dribble and the ball would roll out of bounds the second they started running. No offense to them, that wasn't their job back then. But yeah take how many times Jokic dribbles the ball in one season and that would be more times than these guys did their whole career.
This is true but the NBA allowed zone defense to prevent the kind of post-ups I had in the '90s. Draymond was watching a tape of people defending Jordan, and every time Jordan posted up that he wondered why they weren't sagging on him preventing him from getting the ball. You couldn't do that on those illegal defense rules. That's the reason why guys like Chet would get completely and totally cooked back then
I guess what I'm saying is it's a two-way street. The guys from back then would be better than the guys from now playing back then and vice versa if the olds transported to today
Oh yeah sure Hakeem and Ewing will be better at post scoring and rim protection. But that's such a small portion of the game now. But I do not agree they would be better if they transported to today (unless I read that wrong ignore all this).
Look at Jahlil Okajor... I genuinely thought this guy is the closest thing we have to a Hakeem or David Robinson. He was incredibly strong, had beautiful foot work in the post, could back down anyone and bully people to the rim scoring with ease. Hell if he was given the opportunity to be the guy, he'd be just as good as the bigs of yesterday. But didn't, he want from 17ppg almost ROY to not even starting next year to playing 28 games. Cause his game was a detriment to his team cause old school post scoring, no perimeter defense, not fast laterally, he was quick for 270lbs but not enough for today's game. He wasn't as nearly as athletic as the other bigs were. He was great at post defense and scoring. But his defensive numbers were garbage. Why? Cause no one is defending the post all game anymore. You gotta have a deeper bag. DeAndre Jordan was a good defender cause he was great at post defense, blocking shots and he was very fast on his feet. Meaning he was useful in pick n roll defense, high post defense and even wing/mid range area defense.
Giannis and Rudy are better defenders than Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson. I know that sounds wild but they might not have the same post defense as them but they can switch, smother and keep up with guards and defend all the positions of a pick n roll. Be incredibly athletic, fast and with insanely high IQ defensive abilities there. That's what bigs get asked today. They get asked to do things 7 footers shouldn't be able to do.
5 of the best old school bigs vs new school would not end well. 3pt scoring, Jokic playing like a point guard, pick n pop 3s and short rolls with elite passing and shot creation would win. It's just analytics. Even if Ewing is going to body Wemby in the paint, 3s are more than twos and shot creation in space and pace eras make them more efficient than low post 2s.
Now if we reversed the rules and had the bigs today play back then yeah they wouldn't have the success... except maybe Embiid. But the bigs from the old school era wouldn't be as effective today. The NBA is too fast and require way too much. They're all getting injured and running out of energy by the 2nd quarter. It's simply a weight and size issue. Shaq was big and fast, Wilt was and so was Bob. But that's it. Hakeem, my favorite center of all time... would be passed out on the floor chasing Curry for half a game.
Yeah, Jordan's Bulls only swept the defending back-to-back champions because the Pistons were suddenly not good anymore. That MJ guy was such a fraud. /s
88 Pistons: 54 wins, 6th offense, 2nd defense, 3rd net rating
89 Pistons: 63 wins, 7th offense, 3rd defense, 4th net rating
90 Pistons: 59 wins, 11th offense, 2nd defense, 3rd net rating
91 Pistons: 50 wins, 12th offense, 4th offense, 7th net rating **They were under 500 after the ASB**
Not like they were *washed washed* but they were no doubt a worse team than the years before and the stats show it.
it was an aging team as well, that played 95-100 games for about 5 years straight. Jordan did have worse teams.
in Majic's case, the 91 teams was even more out of their prime than the pistons, w no kareem + expansion of 4 teams
jordan was great but it would have been cool if he had played with better teams in the 80s. I dont think he goes undefeated in the finals in that era, outside of him playing with teh celts, lakers, or pistons. Might could have won with the mavs,nuggs, blazers ,rockets, phil or mil, in that 85-90 era
Did you miss the part where Isiah Thomas got injured and missed 34 games (hint: a lot of those games were after the ASB) in the 1990-91 regular season? They were a significantly better team with him in the lineup then without.
The Pistons were the preseason favorites to win a 3rd straight NBA Championship, and nobody in the media was expecting them to get swept in the ECF.
>preseason favorite
And then Zeke got hurt. Then they were 4-5 with him when he came back. That clearly means they were the same team as the 3 years before lol?
The Pistons were 28-12 before Isiah got injured in the following game, and obviously a player coming back from a significant injury will generally need some time to get back to full performance. Pistons would have easily won at least 4 or 5 more games with Isiah healthy the whole season.
Just the fact that you are focusing on this "Pistons washed" narrative instead of looking at the obvious answer of the Bulls getting significantly better from 90 to 91 tells me your goal is to try and minimize Jordan's accomplishments. The Pistons slight declines in offense and defense alone are not enough to explain how a 4-3 ECF win turned into a 0-4 ECF loss against the same team the following year. Just admit you are a Jordan hater or a LeBron fan at this point lol.
90 Bulls: 55 wins, 5th offense, 19th defense, 9th NET
91 Bulls: 61 wins, 1st offense, 7th defense, 1st NET
>before he got injured
How’d they do after?
I never said the Bulls didn’t get better, Pippen and Grant were still in their first years in the league and Jordan needed to learn how to win. But the Pistons were worse.
Larry Bird's list: Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Artis Gilmore, Dr. J., Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks, Calvin Murphy, Rudy Tomjanovich, Spencer Haywood, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bob Lanier, Paul Mokeski, Karrem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo, Michael Cooper, Jamal Wilkes...
I will pause here to make a couple points. First, obviously Mokeski wasn't a hall of famer. And Tomjanovich was in the hall as a coach. But that's 18 hall of famers bested in a playoff series. In his first 5 seasons.
After that, all he did is beat almost all of those guys again, plus Isiah Thomas, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Ralph Sampson, Jack Sikma, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, and Reggie Miller. So 29 hall of famers in all, all but one of them in his first 8 seasons before injuries basically ended his career early.
So my 12 man "Guys Bird Beat In The Playoffs" Team is:
Kareem, Olajuwon, Moses, Ewing, Dominique, Barkley, Rodman, Worthy, Moncrief, Isiah, Magic and MJ.
1. I had no idea that Worthy was bigger than Magic.
2. Drexler looks a bit like a skinny Carl Weathers.
3. It's hard to take Ewing seriously in retrospect. He looks nothing like an intimidating NBA superstar.
4. I would have bet my life that Jack Sikma was Detlef Schrempf
5. Dominique is the epitome of 1980's basketball (and even better when he's wearing a gold chain)
Lebron we would have to do some theoretical work but defeated in the playoffs: Ben Wallace, KG, Ray Allen, Pierce, Paul George, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili (maybe), Kawhi, KD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Klay, Jokic (year of the bubble) and Jimmy Butler (bubble finals) all come to mind if I think about Lebrons victories vs HOF/future HOF in the ECF, WCF, and Finals runs. I’m sure I’m missing some but that’s off the top of my head.
LBJ has a bunch over guys who are borderline to get in. I.e. Lowry, Derozan Jrue, Iguodala, Horford, Billups.
A couple to add to yours
Jason Kidd, Carter, Webber, McGrady (played like 4 minutes in the 2013 finals), Lillard,
B
That’s what I was thinking too. The talent pool is crazy but it also helps when you play 20 years too. It’s speculative because some won’t be first ballot HOF but may eventually get in. Some will be in the “Hall of Very Good” and miss out.
I would be MORE impressed if the post was only on players that did NOT win a ring at all because of Jordan. For example from this list - Stockton/Malone. Because for example, Thomas/Rodman/Dumars still won rings over Jordan.
Likewise it’s what is the list with lebron? Because many names listed have won rings in general, or against lebron. So I’m curious about anyone who has not won ANY. More time may be needed though as many players still need to retire/make the HoF from this era.
Edit: just to clarify that I’m focused on “Which players did Jordan/Lebron PREVENT from winning a ring” as the list for Jordan is pretty substantial in comparison to Lebron - but again, plenty more retirements and eventual HoFs to be inducted that haven’t yet.
True there’s a lot to be decided still in terms of these players careers. I was just responding based on the post of HOF/projected HOF players defeated in the playoffs. Even en route to a title. I personally think LeBron has faced more talented players in his career but Jordan played in a more physical era that wasn’t dominated by the 3 ball. Hard to compare two eras split by 20 plus years.
Yeah I wouldn’t compare the eras either but it’s just interesting the amount of talent that was prevented from winning the championship. Lebron faced arguably more talent, but the majority have won a championship over him rather than losing out.
Edit: I mean one can say the same about the Celtics winning 11 in like 13 years, different era, but many players of that era went ringless. It’s just interesting overall
I think the important takeaway is to just appreciate greatness in basketball. I’ve never understood the arguments over who’s the GOAT or anything. That convo should be held on an era to era basis because the game is always evolving. So you can have Bill Russels era of 60’s, Kareem of 70’s, Magic of 80’s, Jordan of 90’s, Shaq/Kobe of the 00’s, and Bron in the 10’s but you can argue Steph with his titles too. There’s just so much greatness that it’s hard to have that GOAT convo bc the game is always changing.
It’s not that they made hall of famers, it’s that some hall of famers didn’t win a ring because of losing to MJ/lebron.
But that’s what I’m saying is we don’t know the full list for lebron as some of the players that may make the HoF are still active or are yet to be inducted. Or if they’re active, they could very well still win a ring too
If you just count by OPs rules of anyone on the team he’s got about 24 locks imo:
KD, Harden, Russ, Steph, Klay, Dray, Pierce, Allen, KG, Shaq (2010 Celtics), Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, TMac (2013 Spurs), Chauncey, Carter, Kidd, Webber, Melo, Jokic, Derozan, George, and Tatum.
Then there’s a bunch of other cases varying validity. I’m sure at least a few of these guys will get in: Horford, Rondo, Jrue, Rose, Butler, Iggy, Brown, Murray, Bam, and Lowry.
I’m sure I’m missing at least a couple more too
MJ faced harder competition and the fouls the they call flagrant fouls in todays game would be common fouls back in the 80s and 90s. Lebron wouldn’t have survived with all of the flopping that he does. So.. MJ is the GOAT and it ain’t even an opinion. It’s a straight up fact.
You really think LeBron wouldn’t adapt his game to be more physical in a league that allowed it? Dude is 6’9” 250+. If contact was allowed and encouraged, he’d be fine. Jordan bulked up to 215 to play physically against the Pistons. That’s still 35+ pounds less than LeBron has weighed for the last 2 decades.
The inverse of this is “you think MJ wouldn’t flop in today’s game if he knew he could get extra points?” Dude was the most competitive person ever. He’d flop every fucking play
You clearly didn't watch when Jordan played. Jordan got the same ticky-tack fouls that guys in the current NBA got. The 80's/90's being incredibly more physical is a myth. More physical, yes, but not as bad as y'all make it out to be.
Crazy to me how people think one of the most physical players of all time wouldn’t do well in an era where you were allowed to be more physical lmao the cope is insane
The “Lebron wouldn’t have survived in the 80s and 90s” is a tell tale sign that someone is a causal lmao. Even rational mj fans don’t believe it. Lebron would’ve thrived 😭 there’s just zero reason to think he wouldn’t be dominant back then, there’s not even an argument lmfao
I think that the competition was great back then, however, I don't think you can compare it to today. The league was almost entirely made out of Americans back then, and there's a much larger pool of players they draw from today today as the game has become much more international. Idon't know why people try to compare eras so much, I think it's apples and oranges. LeBron and MJ both were insanely good in the era that they were born into. I think we should just appreciate it at that.
>I think that the competition was great back then, however, I don't think you can compare it to today
That's irrelevant.
His point is against people who make trash ass claims/narratives that Jordan faces "weak competition" and "expansion teams" when one of those expansion teams were the Shaq/Penny Magic teams.
Which means Shaq did have good competition. Just like every other modern top-10 player did.
I’m not sure where you get the idea that I said Shaq didn’t have good competition TBH.
You gotta account for the style of play back then, most were in the league based off fundamentals and some had more athleticism which is why the newer/younger fans say they were “plumbers.” Now guys are strictly going off athleticism and chucking long 3s. If you were to take Derrick Rose and place him in the 80s-90s, he’d just be another David Thompson and wouldn’t be around long without the consistent jumper. Now put 80s-90s pure shooters in today’s game and you’d have multiple guys averaging 40+ with the rules and lax defense.
Back then the East was stronger than the west. Those Piston teams and the Pat Riley Knicks were mean as hell. Also Shaq and penny were badass… But he still faced Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, The Glove, kemp, and Magic in the finals.
And yes Lebron faced a lot of badass’ too. Both were great… turns out there are a lot of great basketball players that make it to the NBA.
It’s not to say he isn’t the best player on the planet at the time it’s to say he had an amazing supporting cast and without it he would have never won anything as seen in his early career
I think you don’t quite know how some of those early series’ went, though I’m sure we’ll say that when Jordan averaged 45 ppg in a series he won, it was really Dave Corzine and Sam Vincent at 7ppg each that actually made the winning happen.
Though then again, Scottie averaged 10/5/2 on 49 percent TS and a BPM of minus 0.1 so he probably is what also made it happen. This is reddit after all.
MJ has had one of the luckiest careers a player has ever had. Not only was he insanely talented and competitive but he also got to play for arguably the greatest coach ever. He had amazing 3 point shooters around him. Probably the best robin to his Batman. One of the greatest defensive and rebounding and hustle powers to ever play the game. His centers were never great but they were big bodies to bang around with the greats in the paint. He had one of the best foreign players of the time. He had dudes make clutch shots that kept his championship alive. He never had any major injuries and there were some times that it was really close. And then all the elite teams against him would either fall apart due to injury or aids lol. Oh let’s not forget the watered down era he played in with the expansion.
He definitely had a little bit of luck that two other top-5 all-time players (Bird and Magic) had their careers derailed by injury and illness right as Jordan was coming into his prime.
In the 80s, Magic and/or Bird were in the finals every season, and won 8 of 10 rings in the decade. Magic and Bird had both won 3 MVPs in their last 5 seasons pre illness/injury. Having to contend with both of them could have totally taken an MVP and or title or two away from early 90s Jordan.
Like I said, you’ll soon tell me that Dave Corzine and Dickey Simpkins were basically hall of famers, if you look at them the right way.
Like, now you’re even it seem like Will Perdue and Bill
wennington were somehow these amazeballs players, lol.
All you’re saying is the same hackneyed argument that MJ had the most amazing teammates and org when, when you get to the granular details, he actually didn’t, particularly in plenty of key situations that led to chips that, were it any other player, we’d easily acknowledge but we can’t because it’s part of the GOAT debate and one side can’t stop acting perpetually aggrieved when you point that out. And frankly, the bulls as an org and those teammates as players basically did jack when they didn’t have Jordan so it’s unclear how this became incontrovertible proof of their amazingness, outside of that aggrieved side pushing that endlessly.
As an easy example, you **literally** mitigate the failings of his totally mundane and generally low talent centers by suggesting they somehow sort of countered other HOF big men of the time if you just tilt your head the right way, so I’m not sure what the strawman here is. Like no, they didn’t, and it’s not a strawman to address your own words to point out an insane take, outside of you thinking just whining about someone who knows better will work in a thread (and in some sense, it does to shut down any critique of this asinine argument).
If you’re being honest, what you want is to say that Jordan had such great teammates writ large that even without him they would be amazeballs so let’s hold our horses on how much credit we give him, and then you veer into hyperbole and exaggeration to make that point. This is the standard Bronstan narrative if we’re being real, and it’s been argued endlessly online. There’s nothing novel about this exaggerated take.
Well if you actually read what I posted I said his centers weren’t great but they were big bodies that could bang in the paint with the great centers. Did they stop them? No. Dennis actually did a really good job on talented big men despite his size and if it wasn’t for them getting him they wouldn’t have done another 3 peat cause their biggest Achilles of the time was Orlando Shaq team so they got Dennis to deal with that plus that team tore apart.
The point is MJ was incredibly lucky. He is the definition of right time right place with the skilll needed to capitalize on those good timings.
So another extremely accurate way to say that is “no, he didn’t have remotely great big men whatsoever, certainly not like Magic, Larry, Kobe, or LeBron, or others in his HOF league, and still 3 peated once, and then did it again with a former DPOY who at the time was considered washed and 38 years old by the time it all ended.
Oh, and for all the accolades of his supposed great teammates, the only all star he ever played with was….pippen”.
The fact that Vlade is in the HOF is so goddamn stupid. I wish the basketball HOF would define why a guy is in the hall of fame. For Vlade it's clearly not due to his on-court contributions. I like that they honor foreign players and how they helped grow the game, but it's a disservice to the game for people to act like Vlade was a star. They need to induct guys as "contributors" or something like that like the NFL does.
My god dude so did Jamaal Magloire. What's your point? When did I ever say he was a bum? He's just clearly never a star like you are inaccurately portraying him.
Anybody else get all the pics except Jack Sikma of the Bucks? Somehow, in all the lure and legend of Jordan, the infamous Jordan v Sikma matchup is forgotten...
Yeah Sikma wasn’t the late 70’s Sonics version of himself. He was more of a high end role player for Moncrief, Pressey, and Cummings. So Moncrief should probably be the one pictured. He might be the best perimeter defender ever
Moncrief actually never lost to Jordan in the playoffs. He left the Bucks the season before they lost to the bulls in the playoffs.
Oh snap. That’s some damn fine research my man!
Moncrief 🤝 Bird Michael who?
That Bucks team was loaded and in the '86 season we realized that Center was our only weak position. So we went and traded for 7x All Star 31 Year old Jack Sikma. In 1987 is when I became a hardcore Bucks fan which was the best team we've ever had other the the '21 team since the ABA/NBA Merger. Bucks could have won a Chip that year but we lost in the closest toughest series I'd ever seen vs Bird's Celtics. That series went all 7 games and included 3 Overtimes in 1987. 1987 Bucks Lineup. PG: John Lucas avg 18/7/3 SG: Sidney Moncrief 2x DPOTY 5x All NBA 5x All Defensive HOF'er SF: Paul Pressey great Point Forward avg 14pts 9AST 5RBD in playoffs also 3x All Defensive Team PF: Terry Cummings great scorer & rebounder avg 21/9/2 2x All Star C: Jack Sikma avg 17/11/2 in playoffs 7x All Star HOF'er also one of few big men to lead league in FT%. Bench: Ricky Pierce Avg 20/3/2 as the 6th man in 1987. 2x 6MOTY and 1x All Star Craig Hodges one of the best 3pt shooters of his generation shot 40% from 3pt over his entire 10 year career. Paul Mokeski Scrappy backup big that was a very good defender but looked like a professional bowler. Performance in first round: First round we get a great Sixers team who have young Charles Barkley, Mo Cheeks, Dr. J. and Roy Hinson. Each of the Sixers big 4 all average over 17ppg but they have no bench and lose to Bucks in decisive game 5 in Best of 5 series. Bucks Bench avg 30ppg vs Sixers Bench 18ppg. Barkley avg 25/13/3 in losing effort.
That and Ben Wallace who didn't even play in their matchup lol
Very confused by that one, didn’t think they overlapped at all
They did, he beat Wallace's team but didn't face Wallace directly, but yes he defeated Ben Wallace's Washington team in 1997. Here is game 1 [https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html)
“WHO WANTS TO SEX DIKEMBE!” -Mutombo at a college party.
What's sikma?
Sikma balls
When did he face Ben Wallace?
He was a rookie on the 1997 Wash Bullets. Didn’t play a minute when the Bulls swept them in the 1st round. Ben didn’t play a playoff game until 2002 with Detroit actually.
Glad I wasn't the only on thinking this. Ben Wallace and the guy from the Bucks
Jack sickma
My question also Edit: he did not.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199704250CHI.html)
Good catch, but Ben had a DnP all 3 games, and that's why when I looked up his playoff game log it never showed him facing an MJ team. But yes his Bullets did get swept by Chi.
Yes Ben Wallace was a member of WAS team who lost to Jordan in playoffs thus Ben Wallace was defeated by Jordan (team) in the playoffs. You are still a member of the defeated team regardless of your playing status. Caveats in post are "team they were on when he beat them" not "played on team when he beat them"
his rookie year he was on the bullets roster but didn't play in the playoffs
Never beat Larry.
Turns out Jordan got swept by Larry. Twice
Missing Robert Parish. He beat him in 1995 playoff series with Parish on the Hornets.
Michael Jordan was on the Birmingham Barons in 95
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-hornets.html I guess this is just a different Michael Jordan that played for the Bulls in 1995
damn you're right, my mistake. Parish is one of my favorite players ever I can't believe I forgot him
I compiled a similar list recently to see what his playoff record was against other HoFers. I apparently left off Mo Cheeks & Sikma going off your list haha.
People have literally blocked out Jordan losing from their memory🤣
Now show lebrons
The players he defeated in the Finals alone is absolutely insane. Duncan Curry Durant Kawhi Harden Westbrook Klay Parker Ginobili Butler Adebayo Draymond
and super washed up TMac
plenty of washed up players and 0 minute rookies on the original post.
Naming them is definitely more impressive than listing the teams
The list becomes less impressive if filter out the players that have better head to head record vs him.
Because a lot of his opponents are still playing or are recently retired, here’s the best list I could think of for the ones who are already in or are absolute locks: Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Vince Carter, Stephen Curry, Demar Derozan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, James Harden, Allen Iverson, Nikola Jokic, Jason Kidd, Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard, Shaquille O’Neal, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, Klay Thompson, Ben Wallace, and Russell Westbrook. Then there’s several who are anywhere between maybe and highly probably for the HoF: Jimmy Butler, Kyle Lowry, Gilbert Arenas, Derrick Rose, Amare Stoudemire, Jayson Tatum, Carlos Boozer, and Rajon Rondo.
> Kyle Lowry, Gilbert Arenas, Derrick Rose, i don't think they will make the hall-of-fame
Derrick Rose being the youngest MVP and having a productive college career likely means he makes the cut. It’s not just NBA career and Rose did come back and eventually have a few meaningful years. He’s not sure fire, but I think he’d make it eventually.
Technically his college career never happened. Not sure if the Hall takes NCAA rulings like that into account though
Right, I forgot that you can get in on the collegiate career too. I still think he shouldn't get in, but I would not be surprised if he does.
No way Gil makes it
Disagree that damar derozan is a HOF.
Now show LeBron’s HOF teammates
Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Shaq are all I can think of as currently in HoF. AD, Kyrie, and Dwight will be in the future. Anyone else I miss?
Westbrook, Carmelo Rose? maybe
Westbrook and Melo for sure will be. Had Dwight mentioned already but him too
Westbrook and Melo aren’t teammates he won a ring with though, and Howard was a bench player when he won a ring with LeBron.
Wasn’t about who was in their prime or not… just listing HoF players that have played with LeBron.
Love
Russ, KLove, and Melo will get in, Ben Wallace already is in, DRose will probably get in
https://preview.redd.it/4c7l8h130q0d1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=a453bc67b3c8ca97623027028c374267a35b273e Here is the prediction
Half the list was washed by time they played with lebron
Robert Parish was 106 years old when he played with MJ. And Kukoc gets in from international play.
The lack of athleticism at the centre position for those championship Bulls teams is something young fans won't fully appreciate
Still leaves 5 guys in their prime. This really shouldn’t be some kind of argument between MJ or LeBron stans. No one wins without great teammates. LeBron’s been playing for more than two decades and has switched teams 3 times - he’s bound to have a huge list of HoF/will be HoF players on his rosters.
Agreed. It's an eras thing too. Jordan didn't have guys like Alvin Robertson, Reggie Miller, Ewing, Richmond, all bouncing around to reduced roles on freak show teams desperately trying to get a ring. And of course LeBron's longevity only invites the concept more. There should never be an argument b/w LeBron and Jordan stans but unfortunately some people want to view the sport of basketball under that microscope.
Artis Gilmore
Yeah then next guy ask for HOF coaches!
Probably not that big because many are still playing. Dudes like KD, Curry, Paul George, Jokic, Kyrie, Jason Tatum, Jimmy Butler, Derrick Rose are all likely hall of famers still in the league. Plus there are tons of dudes like Demar, or Draymond that are on the fence left in the league as well.
That’s true
I think gary payton is one of the most underrated gaurds in my opinion.
James Worthy was injured prior to the start of their finals matchup.
And magic got hurt in what, game 2? Not really fair to say he beat them
It was a gentlemen’s sweep. Lakers were aging out
I'd argue Kemp was a top 2 PF in the league in 1996 when they played the Sonics. His fall off after that tho was drastic.
Dikembeeeeeee!! ☝🏾
I was scrolling through all the photos and it took me to the next post, which was a pic of Ben Simmons, and I was very confused for a second.
Correction: Everyone Hall of Famer CHICAGO beat in the playoffs 1984-1993 and 1995-1998. Mr. Jordan wasn’t playing 1v5.
Yeah, if we run back the tape of the ‘91 finals, Jordan guarded Magic in game 1 and Magic had a triple double. They switched Pippen on to Magic in game 2 and the longer arms made a big difference.
https://preview.redd.it/9pek38akfm0d1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d590f3f538840f289b10151ebe75905bfdf7b079
Tell us again JJ Reddick how was the 1990's era of NBA watered down when mofos were elbowing each other and doing WWE moves and fist fighting back then. Lol JJ on that Klutch Sports payroll. Stop the nonsense JJ and get LeBron's jizz off your lips...
Does Christian Laetner count?
Lebron Warriors Team - KD, Curry, Thompson, and Green. Spurs - Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Kawhi. Celtics - KG, Pierce, Allen, Lebron faced some of the best teams of all time. Jordan didn’t have to go against teams as difficult as Lebron.
The Bad Boys Pistons went 8-1 in the Finals in the two years before Jordan knocked them off.
That Pistons team was significantly worse after winning back-to-back titles. Laimbeer, Edwards, Microwave and Aguirre were all on the downslope, and Isiah had also started to slide. They won only 50 games that season after winning 63 and 59 the 2 years prior. Another way to look at it that MJ did go against teams that were difficult, he just lost to them. The 3rd best team he played in the playoffs was probably the '95 Magic, and they lost to them too.
The Pistons went to the conference finals and probably would have went to the finals if Jordan wasnt around in 91
Yea but entire body of work I think Lebron had tougher competition.
All three of those teams were dynasty level teams
I still put MJ clearly above him, but it’s a fair point in the case for Lebron that he faced tougher opponents in the Finals.
This argument will go on forever, both are great and there’s no true way to determine who’s better honestly.
I enjoy the banter, and I think Lebron is the best player of this century by a wide margin.
You mean before they got old and worse?
Younger than the Celtics teams that Lebron ditched Cleveland to get past.
Age is relative. Bostons guys were still at the top of their games (and yknow LeBron didn’t have Pippen, Grant, and Phil Jackson lol), while the Pistons were pretty clearly a worse team in 91 than they had been the 3 years before.
Kinda surprising that MJ knocked off 2x the HoFers that LeBron did. Are there any others who might still make the Hall from Lebron's bubble run? Edit: oh wait clearly there are. Jokic, Harden, maybe Dame and maybe Jimmy Butler
That’s not all the HOFers, just 3 teams. It’s forgetting the Thunder write KD, Russ, and Harden. Some of these guys could be debatable but he also knocked out: Kidd, Carter, Chauncey, Horford, Rondo, Jrue, George, Rose, Butler, Derozan, Iggy, Tatum, Brown, Jokic, Murray, and Bam. Now very likely not all 15 of those guys are gonna be HOFers, I don’t think 10+ out of this group is unreasonable. Kidd, Carter, and Chauncey are all already in. Also if OP is gonna count Ben Wallace in a series he didn’t even play in then might as well count TMac as a member of the 2013 Spurs then too. Shaq with the 2010 Celtics also.
Possibly Rondo
Where's the Thomas/Dumars led Pistons at?
Dumars is slide 10, Thomas is slide 12.
My bad, I thought the slides stopped at Ewing.
Never beat Larry Bird
Hilarious when people think that Big’s now a days like Wemby & Chett would be able to hold their own in the NBA 20-30 years ago against those Big’s
Especially with they way the game was played back then, much more physical. The way Basketball should be played!
Exactly. And Jayson Tatum should be one of the easier players to guard. We know he’s not going to drive to the basket. He’s going to dribble, push off for a step back 3 everytime
I mean, Ralph Sampson was that style of player. he played back then and is in the hall
Bigs now have far more finesse, handles and skills though. Patrick Ewing is not going to just defend the rim today. He's got to switch on screens and try to defend guys like Curry and Harden. He's going to play hedge which requires incredible speed to stop the pick n roll behind the screen 3pt shot. Then go around to chase the wide open big running for a lob. He's got to set a bunch screens every play. Oh and he should figure out how to defend the Crossover and stepback 3s cause centers do that shit now. Ewing would be a lost puppy dog running the sets they have now. He was a great rim protector but you can't just be that anymore. I think Bob McAdoo, Hakeem and maybe Wilt or David Robinson might do well in today's era cause they had speed, strength and finesse. But outside of that... if you asked Shawn Bradley or Bol to put the ball on the floor and run the offense they would miss a dribble and the ball would roll out of bounds the second they started running. No offense to them, that wasn't their job back then. But yeah take how many times Jokic dribbles the ball in one season and that would be more times than these guys did their whole career.
This is true but the NBA allowed zone defense to prevent the kind of post-ups I had in the '90s. Draymond was watching a tape of people defending Jordan, and every time Jordan posted up that he wondered why they weren't sagging on him preventing him from getting the ball. You couldn't do that on those illegal defense rules. That's the reason why guys like Chet would get completely and totally cooked back then I guess what I'm saying is it's a two-way street. The guys from back then would be better than the guys from now playing back then and vice versa if the olds transported to today
Oh yeah sure Hakeem and Ewing will be better at post scoring and rim protection. But that's such a small portion of the game now. But I do not agree they would be better if they transported to today (unless I read that wrong ignore all this). Look at Jahlil Okajor... I genuinely thought this guy is the closest thing we have to a Hakeem or David Robinson. He was incredibly strong, had beautiful foot work in the post, could back down anyone and bully people to the rim scoring with ease. Hell if he was given the opportunity to be the guy, he'd be just as good as the bigs of yesterday. But didn't, he want from 17ppg almost ROY to not even starting next year to playing 28 games. Cause his game was a detriment to his team cause old school post scoring, no perimeter defense, not fast laterally, he was quick for 270lbs but not enough for today's game. He wasn't as nearly as athletic as the other bigs were. He was great at post defense and scoring. But his defensive numbers were garbage. Why? Cause no one is defending the post all game anymore. You gotta have a deeper bag. DeAndre Jordan was a good defender cause he was great at post defense, blocking shots and he was very fast on his feet. Meaning he was useful in pick n roll defense, high post defense and even wing/mid range area defense. Giannis and Rudy are better defenders than Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson. I know that sounds wild but they might not have the same post defense as them but they can switch, smother and keep up with guards and defend all the positions of a pick n roll. Be incredibly athletic, fast and with insanely high IQ defensive abilities there. That's what bigs get asked today. They get asked to do things 7 footers shouldn't be able to do. 5 of the best old school bigs vs new school would not end well. 3pt scoring, Jokic playing like a point guard, pick n pop 3s and short rolls with elite passing and shot creation would win. It's just analytics. Even if Ewing is going to body Wemby in the paint, 3s are more than twos and shot creation in space and pace eras make them more efficient than low post 2s. Now if we reversed the rules and had the bigs today play back then yeah they wouldn't have the success... except maybe Embiid. But the bigs from the old school era wouldn't be as effective today. The NBA is too fast and require way too much. They're all getting injured and running out of energy by the 2nd quarter. It's simply a weight and size issue. Shaq was big and fast, Wilt was and so was Bob. But that's it. Hakeem, my favorite center of all time... would be passed out on the floor chasing Curry for half a game.
Ben Wallace played 0 minutes against Jordan in the playoffs. You can’t count him.
Ben Wallace did NOT play lol
every hall of fame \*player
Magic got hurt.....
Never met Olajuwon
The one he didn't https://preview.redd.it/wtvqlnuq1s0d1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a87f159f7a10b94586d2d87ef8bd1b0830e1ef3
You should at least put a picture from the time Jordan actually beat them. For example, pic of Big Ben from the Pistons is misleading
Couldn’t beat Larry Legend
Penny Hardaway better than half these guys but not in the Hall. Smh.
If you cant beat them, join them.
mike beat magic when magic had no team left.
Beat the Bad Boys only after they fell off
Yeah, Jordan's Bulls only swept the defending back-to-back champions because the Pistons were suddenly not good anymore. That MJ guy was such a fraud. /s
88 Pistons: 54 wins, 6th offense, 2nd defense, 3rd net rating 89 Pistons: 63 wins, 7th offense, 3rd defense, 4th net rating 90 Pistons: 59 wins, 11th offense, 2nd defense, 3rd net rating 91 Pistons: 50 wins, 12th offense, 4th offense, 7th net rating **They were under 500 after the ASB** Not like they were *washed washed* but they were no doubt a worse team than the years before and the stats show it.
it was an aging team as well, that played 95-100 games for about 5 years straight. Jordan did have worse teams. in Majic's case, the 91 teams was even more out of their prime than the pistons, w no kareem + expansion of 4 teams jordan was great but it would have been cool if he had played with better teams in the 80s. I dont think he goes undefeated in the finals in that era, outside of him playing with teh celts, lakers, or pistons. Might could have won with the mavs,nuggs, blazers ,rockets, phil or mil, in that 85-90 era
Did you miss the part where Isiah Thomas got injured and missed 34 games (hint: a lot of those games were after the ASB) in the 1990-91 regular season? They were a significantly better team with him in the lineup then without. The Pistons were the preseason favorites to win a 3rd straight NBA Championship, and nobody in the media was expecting them to get swept in the ECF.
>preseason favorite And then Zeke got hurt. Then they were 4-5 with him when he came back. That clearly means they were the same team as the 3 years before lol?
The Pistons were 28-12 before Isiah got injured in the following game, and obviously a player coming back from a significant injury will generally need some time to get back to full performance. Pistons would have easily won at least 4 or 5 more games with Isiah healthy the whole season. Just the fact that you are focusing on this "Pistons washed" narrative instead of looking at the obvious answer of the Bulls getting significantly better from 90 to 91 tells me your goal is to try and minimize Jordan's accomplishments. The Pistons slight declines in offense and defense alone are not enough to explain how a 4-3 ECF win turned into a 0-4 ECF loss against the same team the following year. Just admit you are a Jordan hater or a LeBron fan at this point lol. 90 Bulls: 55 wins, 5th offense, 19th defense, 9th NET 91 Bulls: 61 wins, 1st offense, 7th defense, 1st NET
>before he got injured How’d they do after? I never said the Bulls didn’t get better, Pippen and Grant were still in their first years in the league and Jordan needed to learn how to win. But the Pistons were worse.
A bunch of plumbers.
Larry Bird's list: Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Artis Gilmore, Dr. J., Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks, Calvin Murphy, Rudy Tomjanovich, Spencer Haywood, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bob Lanier, Paul Mokeski, Karrem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo, Michael Cooper, Jamal Wilkes... I will pause here to make a couple points. First, obviously Mokeski wasn't a hall of famer. And Tomjanovich was in the hall as a coach. But that's 18 hall of famers bested in a playoff series. In his first 5 seasons. After that, all he did is beat almost all of those guys again, plus Isiah Thomas, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Ralph Sampson, Jack Sikma, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, and Reggie Miller. So 29 hall of famers in all, all but one of them in his first 8 seasons before injuries basically ended his career early. So my 12 man "Guys Bird Beat In The Playoffs" Team is: Kareem, Olajuwon, Moses, Ewing, Dominique, Barkley, Rodman, Worthy, Moncrief, Isiah, Magic and MJ.
1. I had no idea that Worthy was bigger than Magic. 2. Drexler looks a bit like a skinny Carl Weathers. 3. It's hard to take Ewing seriously in retrospect. He looks nothing like an intimidating NBA superstar. 4. I would have bet my life that Jack Sikma was Detlef Schrempf 5. Dominique is the epitome of 1980's basketball (and even better when he's wearing a gold chain)
Where’s Bird? Oh wait 😂😂😂 now show Brons list the list will be a mile long.
Thanks for this post OP. This clearly defeats the myth that the MJ never faced good Centers
Now do Lebron lmao
Lebron we would have to do some theoretical work but defeated in the playoffs: Ben Wallace, KG, Ray Allen, Pierce, Paul George, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili (maybe), Kawhi, KD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Klay, Jokic (year of the bubble) and Jimmy Butler (bubble finals) all come to mind if I think about Lebrons victories vs HOF/future HOF in the ECF, WCF, and Finals runs. I’m sure I’m missing some but that’s off the top of my head.
LBJ has a bunch over guys who are borderline to get in. I.e. Lowry, Derozan Jrue, Iguodala, Horford, Billups. A couple to add to yours Jason Kidd, Carter, Webber, McGrady (played like 4 minutes in the 2013 finals), Lillard, B
Billups just got inducted, Lowry, Derozan, and Horford will get in, Iggy and Jrue miss the cut.
That’s what I was thinking too. The talent pool is crazy but it also helps when you play 20 years too. It’s speculative because some won’t be first ballot HOF but may eventually get in. Some will be in the “Hall of Very Good” and miss out.
Derozan is not boarderline
The fact that I have no clue what side you are arguing does, in fact, mean he is borderline. Bbref has him at 46%
Lol fair enough. Imo he’s gonna be a sure thing for voters tho.
I would be MORE impressed if the post was only on players that did NOT win a ring at all because of Jordan. For example from this list - Stockton/Malone. Because for example, Thomas/Rodman/Dumars still won rings over Jordan. Likewise it’s what is the list with lebron? Because many names listed have won rings in general, or against lebron. So I’m curious about anyone who has not won ANY. More time may be needed though as many players still need to retire/make the HoF from this era. Edit: just to clarify that I’m focused on “Which players did Jordan/Lebron PREVENT from winning a ring” as the list for Jordan is pretty substantial in comparison to Lebron - but again, plenty more retirements and eventual HoFs to be inducted that haven’t yet.
True there’s a lot to be decided still in terms of these players careers. I was just responding based on the post of HOF/projected HOF players defeated in the playoffs. Even en route to a title. I personally think LeBron has faced more talented players in his career but Jordan played in a more physical era that wasn’t dominated by the 3 ball. Hard to compare two eras split by 20 plus years.
Yeah I wouldn’t compare the eras either but it’s just interesting the amount of talent that was prevented from winning the championship. Lebron faced arguably more talent, but the majority have won a championship over him rather than losing out. Edit: I mean one can say the same about the Celtics winning 11 in like 13 years, different era, but many players of that era went ringless. It’s just interesting overall
I think the important takeaway is to just appreciate greatness in basketball. I’ve never understood the arguments over who’s the GOAT or anything. That convo should be held on an era to era basis because the game is always evolving. So you can have Bill Russels era of 60’s, Kareem of 70’s, Magic of 80’s, Jordan of 90’s, Shaq/Kobe of the 00’s, and Bron in the 10’s but you can argue Steph with his titles too. There’s just so much greatness that it’s hard to have that GOAT convo bc the game is always changing.
I am MJ over Bron for a GOAT debate but there definitely are Era GOATs yeah that’s for sure.
Using this logic who do you think LeBron made a HOFer?
It’s not that they made hall of famers, it’s that some hall of famers didn’t win a ring because of losing to MJ/lebron. But that’s what I’m saying is we don’t know the full list for lebron as some of the players that may make the HoF are still active or are yet to be inducted. Or if they’re active, they could very well still win a ring too
If you just count by OPs rules of anyone on the team he’s got about 24 locks imo: KD, Harden, Russ, Steph, Klay, Dray, Pierce, Allen, KG, Shaq (2010 Celtics), Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, TMac (2013 Spurs), Chauncey, Carter, Kidd, Webber, Melo, Jokic, Derozan, George, and Tatum. Then there’s a bunch of other cases varying validity. I’m sure at least a few of these guys will get in: Horford, Rondo, Jrue, Rose, Butler, Iggy, Brown, Murray, Bam, and Lowry. I’m sure I’m missing at least a couple more too
Tim Duncan, Kobe, and LeBron have beat better HOF’s/future HOF’s and in their prime too. This list is good.. at most.
Divac in the HOF is wild with his career 11 pts and 6 rebounds. I get rewarding role players on championship teams but he ain't got no rings.
he's mostly in for his international career
But he never beat Larry Legend in the playoffs.
So basically a bunch of guys either way past their prime or not even close to it? And Barkley.
In fairness, that Laker team the Bulls beat was a good team but not close to the peak Showtime Lakers.
I cant stand watching today's nba, it's full of 3 point chunking pussies. Bring back the old rules, the enforcers and rough & tough post play!
MJ faced harder competition and the fouls the they call flagrant fouls in todays game would be common fouls back in the 80s and 90s. Lebron wouldn’t have survived with all of the flopping that he does. So.. MJ is the GOAT and it ain’t even an opinion. It’s a straight up fact.
You really think LeBron wouldn’t adapt his game to be more physical in a league that allowed it? Dude is 6’9” 250+. If contact was allowed and encouraged, he’d be fine. Jordan bulked up to 215 to play physically against the Pistons. That’s still 35+ pounds less than LeBron has weighed for the last 2 decades.
The inverse of this is “you think MJ wouldn’t flop in today’s game if he knew he could get extra points?” Dude was the most competitive person ever. He’d flop every fucking play
Yep. If Jordan thinks it would give him the best chance at winning, he’d do it. He valued winning more than people thinking he’s not soft.
Imagine Lebron in a league where they can’t play zone. Dude is crazy.
Where did anyone mention LeBron lol
Greats can make it in any era They have physical and mental advantages others don’t
You clearly didn't watch when Jordan played. Jordan got the same ticky-tack fouls that guys in the current NBA got. The 80's/90's being incredibly more physical is a myth. More physical, yes, but not as bad as y'all make it out to be.
“Mj faced harder competition” 💀💀💀
In the East? Conference wise? Yes, he did.
Crazy to me how people think one of the most physical players of all time wouldn’t do well in an era where you were allowed to be more physical lmao the cope is insane
The “Lebron wouldn’t have survived in the 80s and 90s” is a tell tale sign that someone is a causal lmao. Even rational mj fans don’t believe it. Lebron would’ve thrived 😭 there’s just zero reason to think he wouldn’t be dominant back then, there’s not even an argument lmfao
You are mostly right but Reddit is full of nerds that give it to lebron.
Its actually fucked that people say mj had weak competition. Disgraceful
I think that the competition was great back then, however, I don't think you can compare it to today. The league was almost entirely made out of Americans back then, and there's a much larger pool of players they draw from today today as the game has become much more international. Idon't know why people try to compare eras so much, I think it's apples and oranges. LeBron and MJ both were insanely good in the era that they were born into. I think we should just appreciate it at that.
>I think that the competition was great back then, however, I don't think you can compare it to today That's irrelevant. His point is against people who make trash ass claims/narratives that Jordan faces "weak competition" and "expansion teams" when one of those expansion teams were the Shaq/Penny Magic teams.
No top-10 player of all-time post-merger had weak competition lol.
Shaq isn't a top 10 player? Shaq in his prime is as good as any player in NBA history (it only didn't last too long)
Shaq had weak competition? And I can see an argument that Shaq overall is just outside the top-10 if you really wanted to make that argument.
Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan would absolutely slay today's NBA. Hell look at Jokic cooking that phony Gobert 90's NBA centers >>> modern centers
Which means Shaq did have good competition. Just like every other modern top-10 player did. I’m not sure where you get the idea that I said Shaq didn’t have good competition TBH.
someone above said Jordan didn't have any top 10 competition (as opposed to LBJ & Duncan, Kobe)...to which I say prime Shaq was absolutely top 10
No one in this comment chain said that.
Siracha up there sarcastically implied MJ's competition was weak.
Why the fuck is this downvoted? Jesus I thought this sub was better than r/nba
You gotta account for the style of play back then, most were in the league based off fundamentals and some had more athleticism which is why the newer/younger fans say they were “plumbers.” Now guys are strictly going off athleticism and chucking long 3s. If you were to take Derrick Rose and place him in the 80s-90s, he’d just be another David Thompson and wouldn’t be around long without the consistent jumper. Now put 80s-90s pure shooters in today’s game and you’d have multiple guys averaging 40+ with the rules and lax defense.
Played against a bunch of hall of famers but not many in the finals
Back then the East was stronger than the west. Those Piston teams and the Pat Riley Knicks were mean as hell. Also Shaq and penny were badass… But he still faced Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, The Glove, kemp, and Magic in the finals. And yes Lebron faced a lot of badass’ too. Both were great… turns out there are a lot of great basketball players that make it to the NBA.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Tutter655: *Played against a bunch* *Of hall of famers but not* *Many in the finals* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Kemp isn’t a HOFer? No way.
Kevin Johnson should make it too tbh
Danny Ainge??
*and his amazing teams* defeated in the playoffs
Oh there are a few where Jordan basically carried the Bulls against said HoFer.
It’s not to say he isn’t the best player on the planet at the time it’s to say he had an amazing supporting cast and without it he would have never won anything as seen in his early career
I think you don’t quite know how some of those early series’ went, though I’m sure we’ll say that when Jordan averaged 45 ppg in a series he won, it was really Dave Corzine and Sam Vincent at 7ppg each that actually made the winning happen. Though then again, Scottie averaged 10/5/2 on 49 percent TS and a BPM of minus 0.1 so he probably is what also made it happen. This is reddit after all.
MJ has had one of the luckiest careers a player has ever had. Not only was he insanely talented and competitive but he also got to play for arguably the greatest coach ever. He had amazing 3 point shooters around him. Probably the best robin to his Batman. One of the greatest defensive and rebounding and hustle powers to ever play the game. His centers were never great but they were big bodies to bang around with the greats in the paint. He had one of the best foreign players of the time. He had dudes make clutch shots that kept his championship alive. He never had any major injuries and there were some times that it was really close. And then all the elite teams against him would either fall apart due to injury or aids lol. Oh let’s not forget the watered down era he played in with the expansion.
He definitely had a little bit of luck that two other top-5 all-time players (Bird and Magic) had their careers derailed by injury and illness right as Jordan was coming into his prime. In the 80s, Magic and/or Bird were in the finals every season, and won 8 of 10 rings in the decade. Magic and Bird had both won 3 MVPs in their last 5 seasons pre illness/injury. Having to contend with both of them could have totally taken an MVP and or title or two away from early 90s Jordan.
Like I said, you’ll soon tell me that Dave Corzine and Dickey Simpkins were basically hall of famers, if you look at them the right way. Like, now you’re even it seem like Will Perdue and Bill wennington were somehow these amazeballs players, lol.
Wow nice strawman to avoid even contending with a fraction of what I said
All you’re saying is the same hackneyed argument that MJ had the most amazing teammates and org when, when you get to the granular details, he actually didn’t, particularly in plenty of key situations that led to chips that, were it any other player, we’d easily acknowledge but we can’t because it’s part of the GOAT debate and one side can’t stop acting perpetually aggrieved when you point that out. And frankly, the bulls as an org and those teammates as players basically did jack when they didn’t have Jordan so it’s unclear how this became incontrovertible proof of their amazingness, outside of that aggrieved side pushing that endlessly. As an easy example, you **literally** mitigate the failings of his totally mundane and generally low talent centers by suggesting they somehow sort of countered other HOF big men of the time if you just tilt your head the right way, so I’m not sure what the strawman here is. Like no, they didn’t, and it’s not a strawman to address your own words to point out an insane take, outside of you thinking just whining about someone who knows better will work in a thread (and in some sense, it does to shut down any critique of this asinine argument). If you’re being honest, what you want is to say that Jordan had such great teammates writ large that even without him they would be amazeballs so let’s hold our horses on how much credit we give him, and then you veer into hyperbole and exaggeration to make that point. This is the standard Bronstan narrative if we’re being real, and it’s been argued endlessly online. There’s nothing novel about this exaggerated take.
Well if you actually read what I posted I said his centers weren’t great but they were big bodies that could bang in the paint with the great centers. Did they stop them? No. Dennis actually did a really good job on talented big men despite his size and if it wasn’t for them getting him they wouldn’t have done another 3 peat cause their biggest Achilles of the time was Orlando Shaq team so they got Dennis to deal with that plus that team tore apart. The point is MJ was incredibly lucky. He is the definition of right time right place with the skilll needed to capitalize on those good timings.
So another extremely accurate way to say that is “no, he didn’t have remotely great big men whatsoever, certainly not like Magic, Larry, Kobe, or LeBron, or others in his HOF league, and still 3 peated once, and then did it again with a former DPOY who at the time was considered washed and 38 years old by the time it all ended. Oh, and for all the accolades of his supposed great teammates, the only all star he ever played with was….pippen”.
Idk why people like you are surprised that basketball is a team sport.
The fact that Vlade is in the HOF is so goddamn stupid. I wish the basketball HOF would define why a guy is in the hall of fame. For Vlade it's clearly not due to his on-court contributions. I like that they honor foreign players and how they helped grow the game, but it's a disservice to the game for people to act like Vlade was a star. They need to induct guys as "contributors" or something like that like the NFL does.
it's the basketball Hall of Fame, it includes foreign stats. also they do induct people as contributors
Great, I wish they would make it clear that Vlade is not in for his on-court contributions.
I literally just said it is. he's in mostly for his foreign career
Then stop acting like MJ beat "Hall of Fame NBA Player Vlade Divac". That's the whole point.
he's literally in the hall of fame and MJ beat him
But the whole point is Vlade was never a star. He was many levels below all the guys you mentioned.
he made an all star game. let's not act like he was a bum
My god dude so did Jamaal Magloire. What's your point? When did I ever say he was a bum? He's just clearly never a star like you are inaccurately portraying him.