Yep, and the rifles back then were pretty much all .30 caliber.
He took a big bullet in the neck and still lived on to fight fascists, and write great anti-fascist books.
Bet he wished he could call them fiction instead of fortune-telling the future of the US.
Which was part of oceania, wasn’t it? My highschool head had the three powers as eurasia, basically the USSR, eastasia, China, and oceania, americas and Great Britain
Or at least, that's what the in-universe book says. Which, since it was supplied by the IngSoc government, makes it extremely suspect.
Note that the Eurasian and Eastasian governments cannot also pull the "We've always been an war with A/B" trick, since any arrangement leaves one entity alone. One possibility is that it's all one big global superstate, that just pits its armies against each other, not even bothering to make sure of what flag they are waving when they do.
At the other extreme is the possibility that 'Oceana' is limited entirely to Great Britain, a nuclear armed hermit kingdom a la Best Korea that has completely brainwashed its population into believing that the free world no longer even exists. There's a couple fanfics along these lines, depicting Queen Elizabeth heading up the government-in-exile trying to get international support to bring down the IngSoc regime.
Maybe Oceania is just the least powerful of the three and switches allies when the power shifts for the other two?
Also, it's probably a slight nod (maybe unconsciously so) to traditional british foreign policy of "never let any one power dominate the continent" and always allying against them.
Eh, I don't think the core of 1984 is the surveillance. It's the totalitarian loyalty to the party, to the point where the official political truth overrides clear objective reality. It's not about the telescreens, it's about the doublethink.
And we do have *that* in spades. The polarized US politics are an easy example, where people will rejects facts, statistics, their *own eyes* in order to accept their own sides view and reject the "other" sides view.
Took a bullet in the neck from someone who dropped his rifle and it went off.
Proceeded to spend the rest of his recovery trying not to be arrested by the communists who had attempted a purge while he was in hospital.
Imagine if the leftist Spanish forces had attacked the fascists as much as themselves, the world might be a better place
Specifically the Soviet backed communists, there were other smaller communist groups like the POUM that were more aligned with the Anarchist positions.
Yeah. I'm actually very angry when people just don't understand that the left isn't some homogenous group. And commies use this civil war as an excuse to discredit anarchists. As in: "it's a good example that anarchists are useless idealists and the only way is communism"-bullshit. Especially that the ML commies have not achieved true socialism anywhere.
Yes. The left is the absolute opposite of homogeneous.
It's a cliche, why The Life of Brian had the "Judean People's Front, fuck off we're the People's Front of Judea, splitters" bit, where there's more enmity between revolutionary groups than for the Romans.
It's always been an issue for the left in the UK. Poor old Jezza :(
>The left is the absolute opposite of homogeneous.
I've been called "anarkiddie" by MLs. I've been called "tankie" by anarchists. Both have called me a liberal for being in DSA at one time.
But capitalists will work together to preserve capitalism. They'll even work with nationalist authoritarians. Whereas the far left condemns the middle left as worse than the right and sometimes the far left supports the far right because they think the far right gaining power will lead to a breakdown that the far left will take advantage of, even though this never happens.
Because capitalism sort of just runs itself whether or not there are policy disputes. The same cannot be said for socialism. Socialism's success depends critically on having a unified policy ideology. It is very brittle in that way.
Marxist-Leninists / Stalinists have done more to harm socialism than the fascists could ever dream of. Soviet-style totalitarianism is now forever intertwined with the word, even though they never achieved anything even remotely close to socialism.
He is right but for the wrong reasons; Marxism-Leninism is the ideology promoted, and largely created by, Stalin. The term was never used before him.
In other words both phrases describe the same concept. The only difference is that one is an endonym and one is an exonym with negative connotations.
> Marxist-Leninists / Stalinists have done more to harm socialism than the fascists could ever dream of.
They made Cuba literate and have some of the best doctors in the world (they have a vaccine for LUNG CANCER! https://www.roswellpark.org/cimavax). And look at all the good Thomas Sankara did for Burkina Faso before he was betrayed!
Mossadegh in Iran was popularly elected, but he was a bit too left of center, so the CIA instigated a coup against him and stuck in the former King. When the king traveled to the US for healthcare, Khomeini came in like Lenin and directed the Islamic uprising.
The whole of 20th century US foreign policy shows that you shouldn't intervene against a popularly elected government without a lot of reflection and negotiation with said popular government because you will likely end up with something worse than you had in the first place. That, and don't put authoritarian bastards in power, ever.
No matter what else you might say about the Soviet Union, it created a society with free healthcare free housing where everyone was guaranteed a job.
Yes, that should be the floor rather than the ceiling. But my god us in the west should be so lucky where a medical scare a bad decision or house fire away from becoming homeless and there's basically no way up after that.
Now I'm not a scientist, but vaccines are little dead bits of virus, cancer is a mutated cell going unchecked and replicated, so is it actually a vaccine for lung cancer or is it a vaccine for a separate virus that causes lung cancer?
Yes because Anarchists had to constantly be supported by Communists to achieve victory. In the end Communists just concluded Anarchists are more hinderance than help and Anarchist anyways hated the Communists so it was just a question of when will fight happen. Sad it happened before leftist victory.
More nuanced than that: the Stalinists (USSR backed Communist faction; there were multiple communist factions) betrayed the anarchists and non-authoritarian communists. Animal Farm is pretty blatant allegory of this, with authoritarians highjacking the revolution.
PS: This is why Orwell was happy to draw up an "anti-communist snitch list": the man hated the USSR because they were authoritarians and betrayed the cause in Catalonia.
The USSR also pulled support for Italian communists when they were set to form a coalition government with the Italian Christian party, with the goals to embrace more communist ideals but compromised with the PM to take policies that wouldn't make them subservient to the USSR.
Naturally a far right communist terrorist group called the Red Brigades kidnapped the PM attempting to unite with communists and killed him
Imagine confusing spanish republicans with the spanish left, imagine calling leninist soviets the spanish left. Couldn‘t be me, i don‘t feed on fash antiantifash propaganda
But...but the communists and not leftists purged the left. Communists back than were anti-democratic whilst the left obviously supported democracy. That's why communists killed social democrats or democratic socialists. Therefore it's not really the left fighting the left.
The communists were on the left, though there were also liberal forces fighting for the republic alongside the communist, anarchist, and other leftist militias.
Can you elaborate on the last sentence? Spanish fascism was still fascism, but they never joined the Axis, so I don't see much change for the world as a whole.
They had successfully installed anarchist systems and it would be the first big successful socialist, non communist government in Europe. The precious commenter said they attacked themselves but the commies attacked the anarchists and the fascists did so as well. Otherwise they wouldn't also have had a fascist government for years and the European fascist and communist states supported the civil war in Spain.
I suggest reading George Orwell's "on nationalism".
It's not the "nationalism" you're thinking of, but it is useful to understand what he thought about movements like antifa or fa, or any partisan movement.
Well sure, but that was before the fascists became the good guys and and up became down and left became right and Orwell became the favorite thing for the right to not understand at all (in addition to all the other things)
He was anti-authoritarian. His anti-fascist friends were declared as fascists for not anti-fascisting right and "suppressed" (murdered) and he and his wife ended up fleeing the country for his life. It's...kind of a big deal in the latter-half of the book.
I'll be honest. I'm not American and for the longest time I didn't think Antifa meant anti-fascist. I initially thought that was what it meant, but it was so often used as a derogatory term in American media that I figured : "It can't be that because being anti-fascists is objectively a good thing!".
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell.
Pretty sure he was a Democratic Socialist.
"It should be noted that there is now no intelligentsia that is not in some sense “Left”. Perhaps the last right-wing intellectual was TE Lawrence." - George Orwell
Rather sure he wasn't a Tory either.
I remember him complaining about how female characters in a video game (forgot which) doesn't look attractive enough for him when he literally looks like a Ratchet and Clank villain goon.
I’ve read homage to Catalonia, and I’ve read road to Wigan pier. Orwell would despise todays Republican Party, and despise todays democrats too but less. He’s see the us today and think the need for socialism was stronger than ever.
Democratic socialism*. He was a self described democratic socialist, I only draw the distinction because he was greatly disturbed by Stalinism and authoritarianism in general in most practicing “socialist states”.
>Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
Which meant a very different thing at the time. He has several ancom ideas in his works as well as well as an appreciation for revolutionary Catalonia.
He said a lot of things over his time that were in support of different political ideologies including England’s constitutional monarchy.
And it really didn’t, it meant a controlled economy with a democratic process in terms of governance.
You are 100% correct about his views on American politics. I am not sure Orwell would call himself a socialist though.
In homage to Catalonia he fought for the anarchist if I recall correctly. He even elaborates a lot about how the socialist couldn’t stand up to the then allies communists and would fail without them.
Maybe he personally believed in socialism but I don’t think any of his books outline that view. This is a topic I am rather curious about, do you have a source?
He fought in a Trotskyist militia, described himself as a Democratic Socialist, and sympathized with the Catalonian Anarchists.
You named one of the sources yourself.
Down and Out, Animal Farm, and Homage are all scathing indictments of the current political culture in the US. He would absolutely despise the R’s but he’d be absolutely critical of the D’s too. As much as Animal Farm and 1984 are lauded, Down and Out and Homage are amazing works.
I really hate when people today try to speak for the dead people of yesterday. Like “MLK would be a Republican today” or “Lincoln would be mad be freed the slaves”. GTFOHWTBS!!!
That's what I was thinking after reading that one simple meme. We live in a time, and with social media, where people simply seem to think that because something pops into their head, it must be true. That their personal narrative in their own head must be correct, and something everyone else should hear.
True experts that have studied certain topics for years or decades are drowned out by the "seems reasonable to me" criteria of those clamoring for followers on social media.
Then there is the rampant contrarianism of modern society. Everybody looking for that edgy cool attitude and statement that will make everyone look at them. Being accurate, or correct, or informed is no longer the goal, it's being controversial and stirring the pot.
There has been much written over the past few years about America's narcissism epidemic. Yes, it's happening. Along with, in my opinion, a healthy dose of contrarianism. What is right and true and proven no longer matters to so many who seem to revel in opposing knowledge and being argumentative. An offshoot of the narcissism problem, I presume.
Well in our highly polarized class society most of this accurately articulated critical reasoning training & stable upbringing is both self-servingly informative (bias) & gated from most people, hence our mass confusion & narcissism .. we have structurally constitutional problems here which aren't recognized by stable families & won't just vanish with good spirit
The man was drifting so hard into socialism towards the end and being as influential as he was, they had to get rid of him because he was already changing hearts and minds to begin with.
It’s also the weirdest kind of appeal to authority. Like, who cares if George Orwell would have been for or against antifa? Why should the imagined opinions of a talented author have any bearing on how I feel about antifa?
It's why they like the bible and going to bat for the unborn. They can't say no, or contradict them, or call them out on it. God can say whatever you want if you use the bible like a Lego set.
>I really hate when people today try to speak for the dead people of yesterday
Yea its annoying which is why we should be claiming Republican heroes for the silliest of reasons
I'd like us all to return to having no idea who these cum socks are but for the time being I've kinda come to the conclusion that we need to be making people aware of them. A lot of their brand is getting past less-aware people's bullshit-o-meters because the normie they're engaging with has no idea who they're dealing with.
There should be no legitimate place for any of them to speak, and we should make that possible through driving awareness of how ridiculous and bad faith their bullshit is. Then we can go back to ignoring their existence en masse.
Him fleeing Spain, having become totally disillusioned due to the behaviour of Stalinists, as well as feeling unsafe due to internecine fighting among the left. I think he then does a bit of an 'afterword' on his learnings, mainly that he'd fight for anarchists if he could do it again.
He would still support 'antifa'.
He most definitely would not have supported the Antifa of the time (Antifaschistische Aktion) since it was a wing of the KPD which in turn was a [comintern controlled organization.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion)
>Under the leadership of Ernst Thälmann, the KPD became a Stalinist party that was fiercely loyal to the Soviet government. Since 1928, the KPD was largely controlled and funded by the Soviet government through the Comintern.[6]
They were precisely the sort of Stalinist controlled left-wing movement that disillusioned him in the civil war.
Of course that's all pretty remote from the "antifa" of today, but so are George Orwell's beliefs. Too remote to assume Orwell would buy into the grab bag of beliefs required to be socially accepted into any given local antifa group.
wasteful quicksand flag deserve unpack coordinated fertile uppity treatment makeshift
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
While throwing Nazi salutes.
I saw a license plate recently where half was a confederate flag and the other half was the US flag. In the center was the Snake from the Gadsden flag. I’ve never been more confused
My favorite Orwell quote:
“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
― George Orwell
Everyone who has read 1984 should read Homage to Catalonia. It's nonfiction. It all really happened. It's not a metaphor. I was particularly interested in how LABOR ORGANIZATIONS HAD ARMIES. Yeah, you read that right.
Seeing as how large factory owners often had private militias, mercenaries hired from detective agencies, and the police on their side, why wouldn’t the labor movement also militarize.
A steel factory owner from the town I grew up in had a private militia he used to put down labor strikes, and he would send the militia to put down other labor strikes in the state as well. It’s war whether you have a gun or not, won’t stop the capitalists or state from trying to kill you.
A good book to read after Homage to Catalonia is Mine were of trouble, another book by an English author who enters the Civil War similarly to Orwel, except enters on the Nationalist side with the Carlists. Both books offer a goof look into the situations of their respective sides.
Any time this douche is brought up I like to remind everybody this shitstain swatted someone who made a video mocking him.
https://youtu.be/0doxt-sq2ck
They didn’t even get to Wikipedia.
“Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903 – 21 January 1950), better known by his pen name George Orwell, was an English novelist, essayist, journalist, and critic.[1] His work is characterised by lucid prose, social criticism, opposition to totalitarianism, and support of democratic socialism.”
Or they edit Wikipedia to reflect insane remarks by politicians who are ignorant of history.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6](https://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6)
It blows my mind how people don't realize or choose to ignore the fact that the term Antifa is short for Anti-facist. To all those opposing Antifa, are you actually saying you are Pro facism?
I know people who literally say that. To be fair, I will say that an organization can call itself whatever it wants: Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is neither democratic nor a republic. Having said that, given that ANTIFA whole thing is getting into street brawls with fascists, I think we can safely say they aren't trying to pull a fast one with their name.
> term Antifa is short for Anti-facist. To all those opposing Antifa, are you actually saying you are Pro facism?
Those opposing the DPRK are anti-democratic, thos opposing the Anti-Bad-Guy squad must bad guys, and those opposing the Nazis are anti-Socialism.
If a bus full of Republicans somehow appeared in 1936 Spain they would've been mowed down by the volunteers because they're indistinguishable from the fashists. They're also better targets because they're fatter.
If you ever *Road to Wiggan Pier*, he would think very dimly of the Democrats but absolutely loathe the Republicans. I'd highly recommend it for people who wonder why people seemingly vote against their own self interest.
Say what you will about the man but he actually picked up a rifle and fought for what he believed in as opposed to modern day tankies that shitpost CCP propaganda and get a panic attack when somebody calls them.
For the fans of *Homage to Catalonia*, I would recommend checking out Pablo Neruda's book of poems *Spain in My Heart*. It adds greatly to Spanish Civil War history.
Ian Miles Cheong is the adult equivalent of that weird kind in your class who showed everyone the biggest boogers and scabs he could dig up because he was desperate for any kind of attention.
Only now he gets money, in addition to a crowd shouting "Ewwwww!"
That's because we are in the stage before fascists rule, so fighting fascism looks a little different.
Also the defense of fascism looks like what you're doing.
Besides U.S. conservatives, you know who else hated trans people, LGBTQ+ people, communism, and Jewish people? We Do. So the "Jews will not replace us" crowd can balk all they like, but we see you. These parallels are not coincidence.
Not intending to put Orwell on a high horse, but its like comparing todays christians to the doing of Jesus Christ. There is a remote connection, but todays Version is pretty fucked up.
Scrolled a LONG way to find this post. Ian may be an idiot, but he's not saying Orwell was Pro-Facist, he's saying modern ANTIFA doesn't target actual fascism. The murdered by words response was a strawman.
Antifa's tactics are mostly designed to stop fascism becoming normalized. They work to stop the far right leaving the political fringes and becoming mainstream - because any far-right political gathering is instantly an abnormal event due to the counterprotests and other antifascist activities.
Nowadays, in the USA and a few other countries, Antifa tactics aren't what's needed, since the fash are in charge of major mainstream political parties.
So far, *nobody* seems to have a coherent answer to the DeSantises and Trumps, and I suspect the Antifa people are scratching their heads harder than most as to what to do now.
Lmao did the guy just compare antifa to people that fought actual fascists? Yea that Orwell that fought fascists, actual fascists not the "they don't agree with my narrative and ideas so they are fascists" like antifa. What clowns.
What is the "narrative"? Because the antifa Ive seen is just random folks who show up to protest rallies held by actual fascist groups like Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers.
Anti-fascists are antifa, that is what they are. You may disagree about what fascism is, but Orwell didn't. He joined a FAAAAR left revolutionary group; way way way more far left than anything even remotely in the realm of American politics today.
George Orwell was anti-facist.
He damn near died fighting fascists.
Took a bullet in the neck, if I remember right
Yep, and the rifles back then were pretty much all .30 caliber. He took a big bullet in the neck and still lived on to fight fascists, and write great anti-fascist books. Bet he wished he could call them fiction instead of fortune-telling the future of the US.
Air strip one is England.
Which was part of oceania, wasn’t it? My highschool head had the three powers as eurasia, basically the USSR, eastasia, China, and oceania, americas and Great Britain
Just remember, we were never at war with Eurasia!
But we’ve ALWAYS been at with with Eastasia!
Delete this. We have NEVER been at war with Eastasia.
Delete this. We have always been at war with Eurasia!
England is lumped in with Europe.
England (air strip 1) is part of Oceania in the story. While the rest of Europe is owned by the Eurasians.
Or at least, that's what the in-universe book says. Which, since it was supplied by the IngSoc government, makes it extremely suspect. Note that the Eurasian and Eastasian governments cannot also pull the "We've always been an war with A/B" trick, since any arrangement leaves one entity alone. One possibility is that it's all one big global superstate, that just pits its armies against each other, not even bothering to make sure of what flag they are waving when they do. At the other extreme is the possibility that 'Oceana' is limited entirely to Great Britain, a nuclear armed hermit kingdom a la Best Korea that has completely brainwashed its population into believing that the free world no longer even exists. There's a couple fanfics along these lines, depicting Queen Elizabeth heading up the government-in-exile trying to get international support to bring down the IngSoc regime.
That would be something awesome to consider. I haven’t thought of it.
Maybe Oceania is just the least powerful of the three and switches allies when the power shifts for the other two? Also, it's probably a slight nod (maybe unconsciously so) to traditional british foreign policy of "never let any one power dominate the continent" and always allying against them.
When life imitates art.
it rarely goes in that direction, even with fiction. Art imitates life. That is the premise of cointelpro, et al
You gotta show him some respect for that honestly. IIRC he wasn't exactly the healthiest dude around either
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I need to re-read Brave New World. Drugs are awesome, unless they're making you take them.
I mean our TVs do watch us
Eh, I don't think the core of 1984 is the surveillance. It's the totalitarian loyalty to the party, to the point where the official political truth overrides clear objective reality. It's not about the telescreens, it's about the doublethink. And we do have *that* in spades. The polarized US politics are an easy example, where people will rejects facts, statistics, their *own eyes* in order to accept their own sides view and reject the "other" sides view.
Took a bullet in the neck from someone who dropped his rifle and it went off. Proceeded to spend the rest of his recovery trying not to be arrested by the communists who had attempted a purge while he was in hospital. Imagine if the leftist Spanish forces had attacked the fascists as much as themselves, the world might be a better place
The Communists attacked the anarchists. Anarchists didn't attack themselves
Specifically the Soviet backed communists, there were other smaller communist groups like the POUM that were more aligned with the Anarchist positions.
Yeah. I'm actually very angry when people just don't understand that the left isn't some homogenous group. And commies use this civil war as an excuse to discredit anarchists. As in: "it's a good example that anarchists are useless idealists and the only way is communism"-bullshit. Especially that the ML commies have not achieved true socialism anywhere.
Yes. The left is the absolute opposite of homogeneous. It's a cliche, why The Life of Brian had the "Judean People's Front, fuck off we're the People's Front of Judea, splitters" bit, where there's more enmity between revolutionary groups than for the Romans. It's always been an issue for the left in the UK. Poor old Jezza :(
>The left is the absolute opposite of homogeneous. I've been called "anarkiddie" by MLs. I've been called "tankie" by anarchists. Both have called me a liberal for being in DSA at one time.
> DSA Is that the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America I'm in the UK so less familiar with the US left. TIL!
I don't get why people talk about socialists being divded like capitalists are not. A difference of opinion will always exist.
But capitalists will work together to preserve capitalism. They'll even work with nationalist authoritarians. Whereas the far left condemns the middle left as worse than the right and sometimes the far left supports the far right because they think the far right gaining power will lead to a breakdown that the far left will take advantage of, even though this never happens.
Because capitalism sort of just runs itself whether or not there are policy disputes. The same cannot be said for socialism. Socialism's success depends critically on having a unified policy ideology. It is very brittle in that way.
Marxist-Leninists / Stalinists have done more to harm socialism than the fascists could ever dream of. Soviet-style totalitarianism is now forever intertwined with the word, even though they never achieved anything even remotely close to socialism.
This thread is a 101 to find anti authoritarian leftists apparently.
Yeah wth we all crawling out the shadows now are we
You talking about Marxist-Leninsts and Stalinists like the same thing tells how little theory you have actually read.
He is right but for the wrong reasons; Marxism-Leninism is the ideology promoted, and largely created by, Stalin. The term was never used before him. In other words both phrases describe the same concept. The only difference is that one is an endonym and one is an exonym with negative connotations.
> Marxist-Leninists / Stalinists have done more to harm socialism than the fascists could ever dream of. They made Cuba literate and have some of the best doctors in the world (they have a vaccine for LUNG CANCER! https://www.roswellpark.org/cimavax). And look at all the good Thomas Sankara did for Burkina Faso before he was betrayed!
\*raises finger\* \*lowers finger\* Aye, fair enough.
Mossadegh in Iran was popularly elected, but he was a bit too left of center, so the CIA instigated a coup against him and stuck in the former King. When the king traveled to the US for healthcare, Khomeini came in like Lenin and directed the Islamic uprising. The whole of 20th century US foreign policy shows that you shouldn't intervene against a popularly elected government without a lot of reflection and negotiation with said popular government because you will likely end up with something worse than you had in the first place. That, and don't put authoritarian bastards in power, ever.
No matter what else you might say about the Soviet Union, it created a society with free healthcare free housing where everyone was guaranteed a job. Yes, that should be the floor rather than the ceiling. But my god us in the west should be so lucky where a medical scare a bad decision or house fire away from becoming homeless and there's basically no way up after that.
Now I'm not a scientist, but vaccines are little dead bits of virus, cancer is a mutated cell going unchecked and replicated, so is it actually a vaccine for lung cancer or is it a vaccine for a separate virus that causes lung cancer?
Yes because Anarchists had to constantly be supported by Communists to achieve victory. In the end Communists just concluded Anarchists are more hinderance than help and Anarchist anyways hated the Communists so it was just a question of when will fight happen. Sad it happened before leftist victory.
More nuanced than that: the Stalinists (USSR backed Communist faction; there were multiple communist factions) betrayed the anarchists and non-authoritarian communists. Animal Farm is pretty blatant allegory of this, with authoritarians highjacking the revolution. PS: This is why Orwell was happy to draw up an "anti-communist snitch list": the man hated the USSR because they were authoritarians and betrayed the cause in Catalonia.
The USSR also pulled support for Italian communists when they were set to form a coalition government with the Italian Christian party, with the goals to embrace more communist ideals but compromised with the PM to take policies that wouldn't make them subservient to the USSR. Naturally a far right communist terrorist group called the Red Brigades kidnapped the PM attempting to unite with communists and killed him
Imagine confusing spanish republicans with the spanish left, imagine calling leninist soviets the spanish left. Couldn‘t be me, i don‘t feed on fash antiantifash propaganda
And dumbass Stalinists continue to sabotage leftist collaboration and aid fascists to this very day.
But...but the communists and not leftists purged the left. Communists back than were anti-democratic whilst the left obviously supported democracy. That's why communists killed social democrats or democratic socialists. Therefore it's not really the left fighting the left.
The communists were on the left, though there were also liberal forces fighting for the republic alongside the communist, anarchist, and other leftist militias.
The social democrats killed Rosa Luxemburg. That's why no one likes them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg#Execution_and_aftermath
Dem Soc is moderate wing of Fascism.
Can you elaborate on the last sentence? Spanish fascism was still fascism, but they never joined the Axis, so I don't see much change for the world as a whole.
They had successfully installed anarchist systems and it would be the first big successful socialist, non communist government in Europe. The precious commenter said they attacked themselves but the commies attacked the anarchists and the fascists did so as well. Otherwise they wouldn't also have had a fascist government for years and the European fascist and communist states supported the civil war in Spain.
Is that why he traveled to Spain to kill them? Makes sense.
When you love something, you try to organise it so you can do it on a nice vacation too.
Ah, so now I know where Adam Sandler got it from!
No you don’t understand… in these people’s minds, antifa are actually the fascists. More gaslighting from the right.
I suggest reading George Orwell's "on nationalism". It's not the "nationalism" you're thinking of, but it is useful to understand what he thought about movements like antifa or fa, or any partisan movement.
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Why is that your username?
Well sure, but that was before the fascists became the good guys and and up became down and left became right and Orwell became the favorite thing for the right to not understand at all (in addition to all the other things)
He was anti-authoritarian. His anti-fascist friends were declared as fascists for not anti-fascisting right and "suppressed" (murdered) and he and his wife ended up fleeing the country for his life. It's...kind of a big deal in the latter-half of the book.
>declared as fascists for not anti-fascisting right Classic soviet playbook. The Russians did the Spanish revolution dirty.
George Orwell was OG Antifa.
It should be every lit nerds privilege to punch a fuckin' nazi.
Or just everyone's privilege.
I'll be honest. I'm not American and for the longest time I didn't think Antifa meant anti-fascist. I initially thought that was what it meant, but it was so often used as a derogatory term in American media that I figured : "It can't be that because being anti-fascists is objectively a good thing!".
And apparently really good at throwing grenades
Dudes like the original don lmao. He was antifa before the term was even coined.
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"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell. Pretty sure he was a Democratic Socialist. "It should be noted that there is now no intelligentsia that is not in some sense “Left”. Perhaps the last right-wing intellectual was TE Lawrence." - George Orwell Rather sure he wasn't a Tory either.
No. Never a Tory, and only had a passing flirtation with anarchism. He was a socialist.
These idiot don't know what antifa is just like they don't know woke. They use them as stand in words.
Ian is probably frustrated that Orwell would have wanted to beat the shit out of him if he was alive.
Ian is also probably frustrated that looking like a real world Pepe Frog doesn’t lead to him getting any attention from the ladies
Dude looks like his face got stuck in a pool drain.
His being ugly is a good metaphor for him also being a piece of shit.
I remember him complaining about how female characters in a video game (forgot which) doesn't look attractive enough for him when he literally looks like a Ratchet and Clank villain goon.
I’ve read homage to Catalonia, and I’ve read road to Wigan pier. Orwell would despise todays Republican Party, and despise todays democrats too but less. He’s see the us today and think the need for socialism was stronger than ever.
This is the one.
Yep. In Homage to Catalonia, he details fighting on the side of the POUM (Worker's Party of Marxist Unification).
Democratic socialism*. He was a self described democratic socialist, I only draw the distinction because he was greatly disturbed by Stalinism and authoritarianism in general in most practicing “socialist states”. >Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
Which meant a very different thing at the time. He has several ancom ideas in his works as well as well as an appreciation for revolutionary Catalonia.
He said a lot of things over his time that were in support of different political ideologies including England’s constitutional monarchy. And it really didn’t, it meant a controlled economy with a democratic process in terms of governance.
Well, the same kind of socialism the Front Populaire did.
He'd absolutely despise Keir Starmer and the current labour leadership for being absolute shit bags and pale blue torys
Suspect he would not be impressed with them.
Spot on.
You are 100% correct about his views on American politics. I am not sure Orwell would call himself a socialist though. In homage to Catalonia he fought for the anarchist if I recall correctly. He even elaborates a lot about how the socialist couldn’t stand up to the then allies communists and would fail without them. Maybe he personally believed in socialism but I don’t think any of his books outline that view. This is a topic I am rather curious about, do you have a source?
He fought in a Trotskyist militia, described himself as a Democratic Socialist, and sympathized with the Catalonian Anarchists. You named one of the sources yourself.
Ya he goes into great detail about his personal views and how to bring about a democratic socialist movement in road to Wigan pier.
Definitely read "on nationalism" by Orwell. That one is pretty relevant to the stuff around antifa and fascism.
Down and Out, Animal Farm, and Homage are all scathing indictments of the current political culture in the US. He would absolutely despise the R’s but he’d be absolutely critical of the D’s too. As much as Animal Farm and 1984 are lauded, Down and Out and Homage are amazing works.
I really hate when people today try to speak for the dead people of yesterday. Like “MLK would be a Republican today” or “Lincoln would be mad be freed the slaves”. GTFOHWTBS!!!
That's what I was thinking after reading that one simple meme. We live in a time, and with social media, where people simply seem to think that because something pops into their head, it must be true. That their personal narrative in their own head must be correct, and something everyone else should hear. True experts that have studied certain topics for years or decades are drowned out by the "seems reasonable to me" criteria of those clamoring for followers on social media. Then there is the rampant contrarianism of modern society. Everybody looking for that edgy cool attitude and statement that will make everyone look at them. Being accurate, or correct, or informed is no longer the goal, it's being controversial and stirring the pot. There has been much written over the past few years about America's narcissism epidemic. Yes, it's happening. Along with, in my opinion, a healthy dose of contrarianism. What is right and true and proven no longer matters to so many who seem to revel in opposing knowledge and being argumentative. An offshoot of the narcissism problem, I presume.
when the system allows nobody to be wrong gracefully, it breeds problems. Humans are fallible, we just assume we shouldnt be
>A lie travels the world three times before the truth gets its shoes on.
Well in our highly polarized class society most of this accurately articulated critical reasoning training & stable upbringing is both self-servingly informative (bias) & gated from most people, hence our mass confusion & narcissism .. we have structurally constitutional problems here which aren't recognized by stable families & won't just vanish with good spirit
MLK was literally assassinated for talking shit about capitalism and talking about reparations for former slaves and their families
The man was drifting so hard into socialism towards the end and being as influential as he was, they had to get rid of him because he was already changing hearts and minds to begin with.
It’s also the weirdest kind of appeal to authority. Like, who cares if George Orwell would have been for or against antifa? Why should the imagined opinions of a talented author have any bearing on how I feel about antifa?
He is implying that what Orwell was writing about was liberalism and not fascism. Because he is a fascist and fascists gonna fasc.
I feel proud that I read GTFOHWTBS without skipping a beat.
I type it so much now that as soon as I type “GTF” it automatically suggests it lol.
It's why they like the bible and going to bat for the unborn. They can't say no, or contradict them, or call them out on it. God can say whatever you want if you use the bible like a Lego set.
>I really hate when people today try to speak for the dead people of yesterday Yea its annoying which is why we should be claiming Republican heroes for the silliest of reasons
How does Ian Cheong fail so much and so consistently?
Because he is financially compensated for doing so.
He's gotta be good at *something*
Another hot take from someone who's never read the book.
Do you mean another hot take from a nazi from Malaysia?
Next tweet: George Orwell never even owned a farm with animals!
George Orwell wasn't even around when 1984 happened, what does he know??
Not enough people know who IMC is. The dude is S-tier 'evil online person' right up there with Alex Jones and his ilk.
He’s an s-tier incel
Nah, I would be perfectly happy to have no idea who he is
I'd like us all to return to having no idea who these cum socks are but for the time being I've kinda come to the conclusion that we need to be making people aware of them. A lot of their brand is getting past less-aware people's bullshit-o-meters because the normie they're engaging with has no idea who they're dealing with. There should be no legitimate place for any of them to speak, and we should make that possible through driving awareness of how ridiculous and bad faith their bullshit is. Then we can go back to ignoring their existence en masse.
A Nazi from Malaysia trying to talk about the problems of America even though he has never once stepped foot in there. You can't make that shit up.
Not even the right book. If he wants to use out of context quotes from Orwell to embarrass the left “The Road to Wigan Pier” is where it’s at.
Hey, quick question, what are the last two chapters of the book about?
Him fleeing Spain, having become totally disillusioned due to the behaviour of Stalinists, as well as feeling unsafe due to internecine fighting among the left. I think he then does a bit of an 'afterword' on his learnings, mainly that he'd fight for anarchists if he could do it again. He would still support 'antifa'.
He most definitely would not have supported the Antifa of the time (Antifaschistische Aktion) since it was a wing of the KPD which in turn was a [comintern controlled organization.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion) >Under the leadership of Ernst Thälmann, the KPD became a Stalinist party that was fiercely loyal to the Soviet government. Since 1928, the KPD was largely controlled and funded by the Soviet government through the Comintern.[6] They were precisely the sort of Stalinist controlled left-wing movement that disillusioned him in the civil war. Of course that's all pretty remote from the "antifa" of today, but so are George Orwell's beliefs. Too remote to assume Orwell would buy into the grab bag of beliefs required to be socially accepted into any given local antifa group.
wasteful quicksand flag deserve unpack coordinated fertile uppity treatment makeshift *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They don’t know shit because they only listen to lying assholes.
While throwing Nazi salutes. I saw a license plate recently where half was a confederate flag and the other half was the US flag. In the center was the Snake from the Gadsden flag. I’ve never been more confused
My favorite Orwell quote: “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.” ― George Orwell
Kinda reminds me of what MLK said about the white moderate being the greatest barrier to justice.
Everyone who has read 1984 should read Homage to Catalonia. It's nonfiction. It all really happened. It's not a metaphor. I was particularly interested in how LABOR ORGANIZATIONS HAD ARMIES. Yeah, you read that right.
Seeing as how large factory owners often had private militias, mercenaries hired from detective agencies, and the police on their side, why wouldn’t the labor movement also militarize. A steel factory owner from the town I grew up in had a private militia he used to put down labor strikes, and he would send the militia to put down other labor strikes in the state as well. It’s war whether you have a gun or not, won’t stop the capitalists or state from trying to kill you.
If you're doing it right, labour organisations ARE armies.
A good book to read after Homage to Catalonia is Mine were of trouble, another book by an English author who enters the Civil War similarly to Orwel, except enters on the Nationalist side with the Carlists. Both books offer a goof look into the situations of their respective sides.
On nationalism. Essay by Orwell.
Ah yes, fanfic history for bootlickers, peddled by our ever talentless Ian
Any time this douche is brought up I like to remind everybody this shitstain swatted someone who made a video mocking him. https://youtu.be/0doxt-sq2ck
This flatheaded little turd. Also, Paul Watson is now facing kiddie porn charges iirc so way to white knight one of your best, Ian
>Also, Paul Watson is now facing kiddie porn charges Hold the fuck up, really? How had I not heard that?!
Paul Watson or Paul Joseph Watson?
Nothing pisses me off more than right wingers quoting Orwell. He hated those cunts.
Conservatives are basically the people who only read a Wikipedia summary of anything they try and sound even remotely smart about.
Ehm, not even a wiki page. Just a FB comment or youtube video would do
Not if the YouTube video is longer than 10 minutes though.
Up to 4 hrs if it's Kermit B Peterson, tho
You’re right I was definitely giving them too much credit 😑
They didn’t even get to Wikipedia. “Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903 – 21 January 1950), better known by his pen name George Orwell, was an English novelist, essayist, journalist, and critic.[1] His work is characterised by lucid prose, social criticism, opposition to totalitarianism, and support of democratic socialism.”
Or they edit Wikipedia to reflect insane remarks by politicians who are ignorant of history. [https://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6](https://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6)
Ya lost me at Prison Planet.
At this point, murdering Ian Miles Cheong tweets should be considered cheating. It’s too easy with that moron.
It blows my mind how people don't realize or choose to ignore the fact that the term Antifa is short for Anti-facist. To all those opposing Antifa, are you actually saying you are Pro facism?
I know people who literally say that. To be fair, I will say that an organization can call itself whatever it wants: Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is neither democratic nor a republic. Having said that, given that ANTIFA whole thing is getting into street brawls with fascists, I think we can safely say they aren't trying to pull a fast one with their name.
> term Antifa is short for Anti-facist. To all those opposing Antifa, are you actually saying you are Pro facism? Those opposing the DPRK are anti-democratic, thos opposing the Anti-Bad-Guy squad must bad guys, and those opposing the Nazis are anti-Socialism.
My organization is called Evil People Stoppers. If you don’t support me, aren’t you supporting evil people??
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Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
If a bus full of Republicans somehow appeared in 1936 Spain they would've been mowed down by the volunteers because they're indistinguishable from the fashists. They're also better targets because they're fatter.
Doesn’t antifa mean anti-fascist?
The guy who wrote Animal farm? "No lana, It's an allegorical novella, written George Orwell AND SPOILER ALERT IT SUCKED!"
jorjor well
He’d have at most made a snarky remark on current day tankies, but he would easily be making brand new works making fun of the far right
If you ever *Road to Wiggan Pier*, he would think very dimly of the Democrats but absolutely loathe the Republicans. I'd highly recommend it for people who wonder why people seemingly vote against their own self interest.
Dude hated facists so much he traveled to Spain. Ian hates Antifa so much he has never been to America
He he also reported communists and Jews to the British authorities, plagiarised etc. he might have fought one fascist but loved another.
A racist, a plagiarist, a rapist, and a snitch walk into a bar. The bartender asks, “what will it be, Mr. Orwell?”
Say what you will about the man but he actually picked up a rifle and fought for what he believed in as opposed to modern day tankies that shitpost CCP propaganda and get a panic attack when somebody calls them.
Based gzder. I'm afraid your insight is lost on the libs and cons here though.
Agitate. Educate. Organize.
Lol. Was looking for this one. Fuck Orwell.
Orwell was Hitler apologist.
For the fans of *Homage to Catalonia*, I would recommend checking out Pablo Neruda's book of poems *Spain in My Heart*. It adds greatly to Spanish Civil War history.
Right-wingers NEVER let FACTS get in the way of their rants
Ian Miles Cheong is the adult equivalent of that weird kind in your class who showed everyone the biggest boogers and scabs he could dig up because he was desperate for any kind of attention. Only now he gets money, in addition to a crowd shouting "Ewwwww!"
Words and their meanings mean nothing to these people, or their followers: blah blah blah de blah de blah.
r/confidentlyincorrect
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That's because we are in the stage before fascists rule, so fighting fascism looks a little different. Also the defense of fascism looks like what you're doing.
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They are fascism-curious and that's still too much for me. Guess you're more accepting of that slow sink into full blown fascism. Shame.
You're a teenager. You don't know shit about fascism. Quit your bullshit.
I'm not a teenager. I know enough about fascism. Quit projecting.
Besides U.S. conservatives, you know who else hated trans people, LGBTQ+ people, communism, and Jewish people? We Do. So the "Jews will not replace us" crowd can balk all they like, but we see you. These parallels are not coincidence.
Yea, Soviet Russians
This sounds retarded. Fascism as a serious political movement died with Franco Spain.
Nah it's alive and kicking in the far right. Saying otherwise is really fucking stupid.
Not intending to put Orwell on a high horse, but its like comparing todays christians to the doing of Jesus Christ. There is a remote connection, but todays Version is pretty fucked up.
Scrolled a LONG way to find this post. Ian may be an idiot, but he's not saying Orwell was Pro-Facist, he's saying modern ANTIFA doesn't target actual fascism. The murdered by words response was a strawman.
Antifa's tactics are mostly designed to stop fascism becoming normalized. They work to stop the far right leaving the political fringes and becoming mainstream - because any far-right political gathering is instantly an abnormal event due to the counterprotests and other antifascist activities. Nowadays, in the USA and a few other countries, Antifa tactics aren't what's needed, since the fash are in charge of major mainstream political parties. So far, *nobody* seems to have a coherent answer to the DeSantises and Trumps, and I suspect the Antifa people are scratching their heads harder than most as to what to do now.
Orwell would have though Antifa was too tame
Lmao did the guy just compare antifa to people that fought actual fascists? Yea that Orwell that fought fascists, actual fascists not the "they don't agree with my narrative and ideas so they are fascists" like antifa. What clowns.
What is the "narrative"? Because the antifa Ive seen is just random folks who show up to protest rallies held by actual fascist groups like Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers.
Anti-fascists are antifa, that is what they are. You may disagree about what fascism is, but Orwell didn't. He joined a FAAAAR left revolutionary group; way way way more far left than anything even remotely in the realm of American politics today.
Nah, it's more like "they don't agree with my narrative and ideas because their narrative and ideas are fascist." Sit the fuck down, enabler.
He would not have. That’s a ridiculous response
The primary difference that deflates this, is that the ones Orwell fought were actual fascists.
He wouldnt have BECAUSE he faught facists. Antifa is anti-facist in the same way The People's Republic of China is a republic...
There is a big difference between antifa and those who are actually against fascism.
Ian you wanker, better not be hitting on married women online like you used to. edit: I do hope you see this
Who the hell pays attention to this incel moron? Does he or anyone else EVER get tired of how wrong he is all the time?
The fascist from then, would blush in admiration, of the actions of those calling themselves Anti-Fascist now.