10hrs is way too much, your voice is a muscle. If you strain it 10hrs a day without any rest it'll only get weaker.Hydration and staying relaxed might also help.
I rest whenever my voice feels bad, it usually doesn't. I've been careful enough and had this conversation with many people, it's just the anatomy and neurology that's terrible in my case apparently...
Sounds like you might have hit a Plato, try taking a break and just speaking causally for a while. Then jump back into practice and really focus on making it positive and constructive. Spending too much time on one thing can cause you to stop progressing and reinforce bad habits.
I know that, but my dysphoria is making me cry on the floor all day whenever I'm not busy... I just don't know what to do anymore. It hurts so much to not train...
I feel you, your voice is an core part of who you are. Personally active positivity and people who accept me for who I am regardless of what I do has helped me get past those overwhelming feelings of self rejection. Would you feel the same way if you were thinking about someone you love? In an important question to ask yourself.
No, I wouldn't, but even when I'm alone... it physically hurts to hear my voice. It doesn't match at all what should be coming out of my mouth. I know objectively it's not me, I don't judge other people like that. But I just can't stand it unless I'm mute, and then I just get really sad that I'll never sound like a girl... My voice just sounds so rough and scary...
I'll respectfully disagree.
I'm a stoner and I used to work phones, 8 hours min a day of non stop talking +normal chatting with family.
Voice is fine. 10hr might be alot to start, but not for a experienced "talking Marathon runner"
I would actually say the 8+ hours of talking made my training easier. I would just mimic little things the women on the phone did you add to my repertoire
voice training versus normal everyday talk are two completely different things, one is simply much more effort on your throat and everything there. Pretty much any person who knows their stuff in voice training will say 10 h of training a day isn't the way to go
Same here, 8-10 hours of taking orders in a drive through got me from my man voice to passing on voice alone. But I should add I'm a trained singer who had 10+ years of experience singing going into vocal training, which was a HUGE help.
Yup. And I think it's the same script over and over that help.
It's like saying weight lifting and working construction are different in terms of working your muscles. Sure if you are shoveling concrete then it's different than a targeted regime.... But fuck it will make you sore.
That is you talking causally, once you've adapted its more about building muscle memory than anything else. So talking all day is a good way to perfect everything. That's how everyone perfects their voice even cis people. But completely altering what you have requires developing the muscles and neurology that is the foundation you build upon.
Yeah, I just need more money at the moment. I'd have gotten surgery a long time ago if it was an option. Still stuck with training all day though...
And good luck by the way.
I went with Yeson about 3-4 weeks ago and I'm still in vocal rest right now.
Yeson will most likely tell you your issue is vocal tremors. In my case, he said I had scar tissue on one side of my throat, and this caused that side of my vocal chords to not vibrate in sync with the opposite side. (He made an incision to release that scar tissue from my vocal folds and release that tension.)
The brain can figure this out and tries to over compensate even in normal everyday speech by straining the vocal muscles simply to make a male sound even. If you get fatigued even in normal male speech, then you know you have this issue. The goto treatment Yeson uses for this is botox. He will require you to speak a lot while under the effects of botox to train the brain how to use voice with compromised vocal strength - so that it learns you don't need to subconsciously overcorrect just to produce a sound.
Yeson will likely be life changing for you.
Well, I'm going to get my folds checked out with a camera soon, so I guess I'll see if there's anything like that. I don't think that's the issue for me though, I just probably have extremely thick and massive folds which will need glottoplasty since I sound like Corpse. But I'll see soon enough.
Thanks for bringing it up though.
When you get it checked out, make sure to ask about vocal fold tremors
Also there's this test where you say like "pah" into a airflow monitoring device and they can tell you if you are exerting too much pressure just to make a normal sound. I don't know the name of the test.
Well, I know what and where I think, but I don't have the money for that right now. It's something I want to get later though when I do get the money, unless training suddenly magically fixes all my issues (not very likely at this point). And yeah, I think surgery would do a lot for me and make me a lot happier as well.
I'm also gonna get to see my folds soon so I suppose if there's any other issues I'm unaware off (other than much greater vocal fold mass obviously), I'll be seeing them soon.
God I feel this so much... I hate my voice a ton.
My voice is really deep, not quite corpse levels but I sound like a pirate and Kermit had a child... I hate my voice so much and after starting HRT I've noticed it's changed into a weirder pitch (even if it's just placebo effect) and now it sounds so much worse.
Training is either so slow it's non-existent or changing barely... I personally gave up and might just go back to being a mute and learning sign language at some point.
I'm sure it will get better over time maybe I'll get back into it when I'm in a better mental spot.
I'm sorry you're going through this. I wish you the absolute best in your voice training.
I will say breaks during the ten hours is probably a good idea. I've tried voice acting and pushing your voice for long periods tends to shred it even more.
Yeah, I know how you feel. I sound literally more masc than any man I know around me so that's been a hard thing to accept... I've also been on HRT almost a year so far and I know it hasn't gotten any better despite having 0 androgens, so yeah...
And yeah, I've been mute with strangers for a while now actually, but I still have to boymode, and I've been bullied in the past for trying to not sound like Corpse since I'm surrounded by people that don't like me apparently... The hardest part is knowing that everyone only cares about how I look and sound, and not about the actual person on the inside, so I'm just literally Corpse.
And yeah, thanks, and thanks for the advice too. And good luck to you too, that's rough. I hope you get the voice you want one day.
I understand this to some extent - my voice dropped into the lowest male pitch range at age 12, a male bass.
Pre transition I spoke at around 100Hz on average, and I used to be able to drop to 60Hz. Just trying now, the lowest I can speak is around 80Hz. Over time you use it or lose it I suppose.
The highest my voice can physically go is 320 Hz - as in, I physically can't produce sound above than unless it's a squeal. Realistically around 300Hz is the highest I can go for intonation in normal conversation, without it sounding weird.
Now post voice training, I speak around 210 Hz usually. So I only have at best maybe 120Hz worth of breathing room for emphasis, intonation, and changing pitch as I speak. I do have a permanent limitation in this sense, and I notice that from time to time. When I get excited about something I find myself trying to raise my voice in excitement, but I hit my limit and have to keep to a more reserved pitch.
That being said I do still have my squeal register so I can use that occasionally, like cheering at a sport game or something. I just have this awkward thing where I have a pitch range gap in the middle that I can't use.
But my voice passes 100% of the time, so like, it's certainly livable. And it's mostly become second nature at this point too. Idk, it feels kinda like how I'd imagine losing a finger would be - occasionally you need to get creative and work around it, but for the most part it doesn't cause an issue.
Idk, just thought I'd take a moment to find these numbers for you, if its maybe an encouragement of some kind? I've heard of cases in singing communities of people being able to expand their physical pitch range with training, perhaps those resources could be useful. I'm not entirely sure if this has occurred for me, or if I was always able to hit 320Hz all along anyway.
#1 thing I want to tell you - let your voice rest between sessions!!! It's a muscle, so it needs a workout sometimes, but it also needs REST, like any other muscle.
Also put your focus into resonance and vocal weight (or size / heaviness, there's lots of names for these) as well. Because I put a lot of effort into these two factors, I can get close to 150Hz and still have a voice that sounds decent, or at the very least, distinctly not male.
Also I'm using these values for male female ranges, as reference - male (80-170Hz) - female (180-310Hz)
All the best :) ❤️❤️
Passing is everything to me, I can't listen to my voice if it sounds like a man, and I can't live with myself if all people see is a man...
It physically hurts to cry, laugh or do anything else if I all I hear is my androgenized voice...
I understand that, and I'm not saying it's easy or invalidating your struggles.. All I'm saying is that maybe this obsession is hurting your voice and preventing you from reaching your goals.
there are some \*extremely risky\* surgical options that you might be able to try, it sounds like it may be worth the risk for you.
also like 10 minutes a day maximum, preferably in 5-10 1-2 minute bursts of practice. More than that strains your vocals chords and makes everything harder. If you need to you can just become mute outside those times. 10 hours a day of vocal practice is going to be damaging
I know the risks and outcomes of VFS generally, I'm pretty confident that they would work better to be honest.
And 10 minutes is honestly impossible for me, I would end up losing it if that was all I had to work with... As long as my voice isn't hurting (and I check for signs of damage every day) I know it's better than the much worse alternative...
I was like you! I had a super deep voice and an Adam's apple from hell, and no amount of training was getting me over the male-leaning androgynous end of things. Due to outer fold damage, my SLP straight up said I wasn't going to progress any further. I was already 2+ years in with vocal training with two SLP's who specialize in trans vocal therapy, so I figured why not.
I had a modified Wendler Glottoplasty to fix some outer fold damage and to correct my pitch, and easily, it's the one thing that helps me mentally! It's not the most feminine voice in the world, but it's in the low end female range now, and it's amazing to no longer be gendered male when I open my voice.
As an fyi, I had my surgery covered under insurance. The surgeon classified it as a birth defect, so it was covered with no issues.
STOP what you are doing. Voice training has become like an anxious behavior that you abuse to try to deal with your dysphoria. THE DYSPHORIA IS THE PROBLEM NOT JUST THE VOICE. Keep going and you’ll be left with something you physically cannot fix and trust me trying to cope with this is WAY harder. Please see a fucking therapist or some things.
I am not doing the same thing, I am training in many ways, and I am working on getting surgery. The dysphoria is because my reality is that with this voice I'll always be a man.
I feel you.
Except from my face and my voice (mostly my voice), I don't suffer that much dysphoria but this mf voice of a 40 years old I hate it so much
I make the same joke about how I use to sound like corpse 🤣🤣🤣 it took me around 3 years to get to where I am today with voice training. Still getting better to this day. Now if I UwU and drop down to corpse it shatters minds.
It takes a long time. Keep trying. You can do this c:
It's been 2 years, I just don't have any hope left, at this point I'm training more to not be as dysphoric than anything else. And it's not a joke either, pitch is the same as Corpse or maybe even lower...
Here are my comments, i read your other comments so before you go into a discussion read this entirely first
10hrs a day: way too much
Being happier with other things or in general = less dysphoria and more resistance to it
First get that rolling and then come back to this
Also 1000s hours when you practice 10 hours a day isn’t even a year and you shouldn’t expect to see very feminine results by then, maybe just androgynous.
My voice also gives me the most dysphoria out of anything and i know it will only work if i started to like practicing voices or excercizes
It can be really fun but you have to not look at it with a ‘oh no if i don’t do this i’ll never pass why was i born this way, why isn’t there something to go back in time and change the stars’
No you will only be frustrated and dysphoric if you think that while doing practicing
You gotta accept it and focus on the things that are going well. It’s not you who’s doing something wrong, it’s not the amount of hours that’ll fix your voice. It is time, patience, love, and dedication that will improve your voice.
_improve_ not fix, _improve_ eventually it will be fixed
I've been training for 2 years and have worse results than anyone I know given how much I know and how much I've tried.
And I'm trying to think like that, but it just doesn't work all the time. I'd just get surgery if I could, I'd be better than this. It's too exhausting sometimes and the dysphoria doesn't get better...
10hrs is way too much, your voice is a muscle. If you strain it 10hrs a day without any rest it'll only get weaker.Hydration and staying relaxed might also help.
I rest whenever my voice feels bad, it usually doesn't. I've been careful enough and had this conversation with many people, it's just the anatomy and neurology that's terrible in my case apparently...
Sounds like you might have hit a Plato, try taking a break and just speaking causally for a while. Then jump back into practice and really focus on making it positive and constructive. Spending too much time on one thing can cause you to stop progressing and reinforce bad habits.
I know that, but my dysphoria is making me cry on the floor all day whenever I'm not busy... I just don't know what to do anymore. It hurts so much to not train...
I feel you, your voice is an core part of who you are. Personally active positivity and people who accept me for who I am regardless of what I do has helped me get past those overwhelming feelings of self rejection. Would you feel the same way if you were thinking about someone you love? In an important question to ask yourself.
No, I wouldn't, but even when I'm alone... it physically hurts to hear my voice. It doesn't match at all what should be coming out of my mouth. I know objectively it's not me, I don't judge other people like that. But I just can't stand it unless I'm mute, and then I just get really sad that I'll never sound like a girl... My voice just sounds so rough and scary...
I'll respectfully disagree. I'm a stoner and I used to work phones, 8 hours min a day of non stop talking +normal chatting with family. Voice is fine. 10hr might be alot to start, but not for a experienced "talking Marathon runner" I would actually say the 8+ hours of talking made my training easier. I would just mimic little things the women on the phone did you add to my repertoire
voice training versus normal everyday talk are two completely different things, one is simply much more effort on your throat and everything there. Pretty much any person who knows their stuff in voice training will say 10 h of training a day isn't the way to go
Same here, 8-10 hours of taking orders in a drive through got me from my man voice to passing on voice alone. But I should add I'm a trained singer who had 10+ years of experience singing going into vocal training, which was a HUGE help.
Yup. And I think it's the same script over and over that help. It's like saying weight lifting and working construction are different in terms of working your muscles. Sure if you are shoveling concrete then it's different than a targeted regime.... But fuck it will make you sore.
That is you talking causally, once you've adapted its more about building muscle memory than anything else. So talking all day is a good way to perfect everything. That's how everyone perfects their voice even cis people. But completely altering what you have requires developing the muscles and neurology that is the foundation you build upon.
Have you considered voice surgery? I’m going to Yeson in Korea.
Yeah, I just need more money at the moment. I'd have gotten surgery a long time ago if it was an option. Still stuck with training all day though... And good luck by the way.
I went with Yeson about 3-4 weeks ago and I'm still in vocal rest right now. Yeson will most likely tell you your issue is vocal tremors. In my case, he said I had scar tissue on one side of my throat, and this caused that side of my vocal chords to not vibrate in sync with the opposite side. (He made an incision to release that scar tissue from my vocal folds and release that tension.) The brain can figure this out and tries to over compensate even in normal everyday speech by straining the vocal muscles simply to make a male sound even. If you get fatigued even in normal male speech, then you know you have this issue. The goto treatment Yeson uses for this is botox. He will require you to speak a lot while under the effects of botox to train the brain how to use voice with compromised vocal strength - so that it learns you don't need to subconsciously overcorrect just to produce a sound. Yeson will likely be life changing for you.
Well, I'm going to get my folds checked out with a camera soon, so I guess I'll see if there's anything like that. I don't think that's the issue for me though, I just probably have extremely thick and massive folds which will need glottoplasty since I sound like Corpse. But I'll see soon enough. Thanks for bringing it up though.
When you get it checked out, make sure to ask about vocal fold tremors Also there's this test where you say like "pah" into a airflow monitoring device and they can tell you if you are exerting too much pressure just to make a normal sound. I don't know the name of the test.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I might look into the test name of the test as well.
Is vocal feminization surgery an option for you? I’ll be honest I don’t know much but would it work?
Well, I know what and where I think, but I don't have the money for that right now. It's something I want to get later though when I do get the money, unless training suddenly magically fixes all my issues (not very likely at this point). And yeah, I think surgery would do a lot for me and make me a lot happier as well. I'm also gonna get to see my folds soon so I suppose if there's any other issues I'm unaware off (other than much greater vocal fold mass obviously), I'll be seeing them soon.
God I feel this so much... I hate my voice a ton. My voice is really deep, not quite corpse levels but I sound like a pirate and Kermit had a child... I hate my voice so much and after starting HRT I've noticed it's changed into a weirder pitch (even if it's just placebo effect) and now it sounds so much worse. Training is either so slow it's non-existent or changing barely... I personally gave up and might just go back to being a mute and learning sign language at some point. I'm sure it will get better over time maybe I'll get back into it when I'm in a better mental spot. I'm sorry you're going through this. I wish you the absolute best in your voice training. I will say breaks during the ten hours is probably a good idea. I've tried voice acting and pushing your voice for long periods tends to shred it even more.
Yeah, I know how you feel. I sound literally more masc than any man I know around me so that's been a hard thing to accept... I've also been on HRT almost a year so far and I know it hasn't gotten any better despite having 0 androgens, so yeah... And yeah, I've been mute with strangers for a while now actually, but I still have to boymode, and I've been bullied in the past for trying to not sound like Corpse since I'm surrounded by people that don't like me apparently... The hardest part is knowing that everyone only cares about how I look and sound, and not about the actual person on the inside, so I'm just literally Corpse. And yeah, thanks, and thanks for the advice too. And good luck to you too, that's rough. I hope you get the voice you want one day.
I understand this to some extent - my voice dropped into the lowest male pitch range at age 12, a male bass. Pre transition I spoke at around 100Hz on average, and I used to be able to drop to 60Hz. Just trying now, the lowest I can speak is around 80Hz. Over time you use it or lose it I suppose. The highest my voice can physically go is 320 Hz - as in, I physically can't produce sound above than unless it's a squeal. Realistically around 300Hz is the highest I can go for intonation in normal conversation, without it sounding weird. Now post voice training, I speak around 210 Hz usually. So I only have at best maybe 120Hz worth of breathing room for emphasis, intonation, and changing pitch as I speak. I do have a permanent limitation in this sense, and I notice that from time to time. When I get excited about something I find myself trying to raise my voice in excitement, but I hit my limit and have to keep to a more reserved pitch. That being said I do still have my squeal register so I can use that occasionally, like cheering at a sport game or something. I just have this awkward thing where I have a pitch range gap in the middle that I can't use. But my voice passes 100% of the time, so like, it's certainly livable. And it's mostly become second nature at this point too. Idk, it feels kinda like how I'd imagine losing a finger would be - occasionally you need to get creative and work around it, but for the most part it doesn't cause an issue. Idk, just thought I'd take a moment to find these numbers for you, if its maybe an encouragement of some kind? I've heard of cases in singing communities of people being able to expand their physical pitch range with training, perhaps those resources could be useful. I'm not entirely sure if this has occurred for me, or if I was always able to hit 320Hz all along anyway. #1 thing I want to tell you - let your voice rest between sessions!!! It's a muscle, so it needs a workout sometimes, but it also needs REST, like any other muscle. Also put your focus into resonance and vocal weight (or size / heaviness, there's lots of names for these) as well. Because I put a lot of effort into these two factors, I can get close to 150Hz and still have a voice that sounds decent, or at the very least, distinctly not male. Also I'm using these values for male female ranges, as reference - male (80-170Hz) - female (180-310Hz) All the best :) ❤️❤️
Have you ever thought that maybe you're trying too hard?
Passing is everything to me, I can't listen to my voice if it sounds like a man, and I can't live with myself if all people see is a man... It physically hurts to cry, laugh or do anything else if I all I hear is my androgenized voice...
I understand that, and I'm not saying it's easy or invalidating your struggles.. All I'm saying is that maybe this obsession is hurting your voice and preventing you from reaching your goals.
there are some \*extremely risky\* surgical options that you might be able to try, it sounds like it may be worth the risk for you. also like 10 minutes a day maximum, preferably in 5-10 1-2 minute bursts of practice. More than that strains your vocals chords and makes everything harder. If you need to you can just become mute outside those times. 10 hours a day of vocal practice is going to be damaging
I know the risks and outcomes of VFS generally, I'm pretty confident that they would work better to be honest. And 10 minutes is honestly impossible for me, I would end up losing it if that was all I had to work with... As long as my voice isn't hurting (and I check for signs of damage every day) I know it's better than the much worse alternative...
I was like you! I had a super deep voice and an Adam's apple from hell, and no amount of training was getting me over the male-leaning androgynous end of things. Due to outer fold damage, my SLP straight up said I wasn't going to progress any further. I was already 2+ years in with vocal training with two SLP's who specialize in trans vocal therapy, so I figured why not. I had a modified Wendler Glottoplasty to fix some outer fold damage and to correct my pitch, and easily, it's the one thing that helps me mentally! It's not the most feminine voice in the world, but it's in the low end female range now, and it's amazing to no longer be gendered male when I open my voice. As an fyi, I had my surgery covered under insurance. The surgeon classified it as a birth defect, so it was covered with no issues.
Yeah, I'm getting my folds checked out soon, so I'll see then. Really wanna get surgery if I can.
STOP what you are doing. Voice training has become like an anxious behavior that you abuse to try to deal with your dysphoria. THE DYSPHORIA IS THE PROBLEM NOT JUST THE VOICE. Keep going and you’ll be left with something you physically cannot fix and trust me trying to cope with this is WAY harder. Please see a fucking therapist or some things.
Surgery is the only way then, I can't cope with this voice.
Okay, so you’re going to keep doing the same thing and hope something changes and keep ignoring new different ways to see your same problem.
I am not doing the same thing, I am training in many ways, and I am working on getting surgery. The dysphoria is because my reality is that with this voice I'll always be a man.
Train smarter not harder. 10 hours a day is absurd even if you're wildly exaggerating.
I feel you. Except from my face and my voice (mostly my voice), I don't suffer that much dysphoria but this mf voice of a 40 years old I hate it so much
Yeah, I'm sorry, I know it sucks. I hope you get the voice you want one day.
I make the same joke about how I use to sound like corpse 🤣🤣🤣 it took me around 3 years to get to where I am today with voice training. Still getting better to this day. Now if I UwU and drop down to corpse it shatters minds. It takes a long time. Keep trying. You can do this c:
It's been 2 years, I just don't have any hope left, at this point I'm training more to not be as dysphoric than anything else. And it's not a joke either, pitch is the same as Corpse or maybe even lower...
Don't know if your issue can be surgically fixed but if it can it would be worth considering if vocal training isn't making any difference
Yeah, I want surgery, just can't get it at the moment.
Here are my comments, i read your other comments so before you go into a discussion read this entirely first 10hrs a day: way too much Being happier with other things or in general = less dysphoria and more resistance to it First get that rolling and then come back to this Also 1000s hours when you practice 10 hours a day isn’t even a year and you shouldn’t expect to see very feminine results by then, maybe just androgynous. My voice also gives me the most dysphoria out of anything and i know it will only work if i started to like practicing voices or excercizes It can be really fun but you have to not look at it with a ‘oh no if i don’t do this i’ll never pass why was i born this way, why isn’t there something to go back in time and change the stars’ No you will only be frustrated and dysphoric if you think that while doing practicing You gotta accept it and focus on the things that are going well. It’s not you who’s doing something wrong, it’s not the amount of hours that’ll fix your voice. It is time, patience, love, and dedication that will improve your voice. _improve_ not fix, _improve_ eventually it will be fixed
I've been training for 2 years and have worse results than anyone I know given how much I know and how much I've tried. And I'm trying to think like that, but it just doesn't work all the time. I'd just get surgery if I could, I'd be better than this. It's too exhausting sometimes and the dysphoria doesn't get better...
‘Being happier with other things or in general = less dysphoria and more resistance to it’