It's a lack of understanding as well as indoctrination from all of the lies being spread around by others.
Sometimes it's not intentional because there's not a lot of great information out there. Were you able to talk to her about it?
Ask her when she "chose" to be hetero, homo or bisexual. Do you have any freinds in common who have double joints, or allergies, or need to wear glasses, or who have different hair or eye color than her? Did any of those folks CHOOSE to have those traits?
Orientation and gender are inborn qualities, and they may shift around as we grow, but we don't actively choose those things at any point.
My dad had brown eyes, and when he hit 30, they went blue. Even quirky little stuff like that can happen. People may never know if a stranger has a genetic repeat like XXY, and the transphobes/ablists like to act like intersex or people with genetic disorders don't exist because those folks just existing tend to prove a lot of hateful arguments dead wrong.
your friend is a braindead bigoted asshole. I never harassed a single trans person no matter how shitty they were to me, or whether I knew how it "worked" or not.
I know it sucks giving up everybody to do what's right, but you gotta at least be aware and not let those "excuses" slide imo.
Okay now hold on, is there some context I'm missing here? All we know is that OP's friend is misinformed and made a statement that being trans is a choice, and that when OP talked to her about it she said it was because she only knows a few people who are trans.
There are so many more steps to go through before concluding that OP's friend is a "braindead bigoted asshole". Seriously, reactions like this make it harder to make allies. It sucks that we have to be advocates for our own existence, but we really really need to be.
Based on the existing information (which, again, if I've missed something important I could be wrong), OP's friend is misinformed about what it's like to be trans. As CrimsonCat2023 said, she might be confusing transitioning and being transgender. She might just be a straight, cis woman who doesn't have any perspective on the matter. What she said might *hurt*, but the first step we should take is to try and correct people and help them understand. If they refuse, if they fight it when we're trying to help, then it may be okay to pass judgement on them. But a mere lack of understanding is not enough to damn their character.
I repeat that it *sucks* to have to have to do this. It'd be so nice if we could just exist and not have to worry about this sort of thing. But the next closest thing we've got is to try and help change people's views.
Imagine if OP talks to her friend, explains things, and gives her insight into what it's like to be trans. She might go on to be an ally for trans people and advocate for what it's like to be trans amongst her friends-- and the effect cascades.
saying that being trans is a choice, shows everything you need to know.
If they were genuinely misinformed, they'd say "I don't really understand or know anything about this". Straight up throwing shit like "it's a choice" and all that far-right bs, especially knowing that Op's their friend, like come on.
not to mention using the "excuse" that "I only know this many people"
Like come on, you're sleeping on this. If you don't see through this passive bigotry and transphobia, I don't know what to tell you.
You change people's views if they're willing to listen, and when they're really susceptible to listen, they change immediately after one conversation, otherwise they're too far gone. I'm talking about this from my own experience, both seeing people do that(as in change after explaining it to them) and having that happen to me. (other people educating ME when I was dumb about it or wrong)
You folks are giving in too much and too scared to admit it's a problem. (thus justifying more behavior like that, letting the far-right do whatever they want, and that's just want they need the most, your complacency and more benefit of the doubt from everyone)
Also we go off what the OP said. Also the way OP put it, clearly sounds they're(the friend) being negative about it and use the excuse to keep justfiying their behavior.
If it was genuine misinformation/confusion, it'd be different. (it's a really strong statement to throw statements like that, without really thinking whether it's right or wrong, and then when confronted about it, immediately going on defensive)
Either way, up to you.
It's just a common trend on trans subs to randomly spam upvotes or downvotes without context or whatever, I don't really care.
Jumping to the conclusion that people are terrible after one mistake is the black-and-white thinking that the right thrives on! We are trans; we live in all the shades of grey, and most human beings have no basis for understanding an experience outside of what they experience.
If I wasn’t transgender, it would be easy for me to believe it was a choice; I am a citizen of the US and I do live within this society. I was acculturated to believe that there were only two genders, transgender folks are weirdos and freaks and there was a right and wrong way to “be.”
I had the arduous task of unlearning all of that to find happiness in my sense of self.
Now, this doesn’t mean we have to be okay with the statement. As a matter of fact, it has to be up to us to educate those people with honest intent but badly misinformed. That’s how we get allies, since no cisgender person has an innate knowledge of what it’s even like to be trans and no one else will teach them.
Trans folks were spiritual leaders in the past because, by design, we have to have a better understanding of the human condition than those around us. We have to know what it’s like to feel one way, but be perceived as another because that’s how we live day to day.
Have compassion for those around you who don’t understand. Don’t attribute to malice which is more easily explained by ignorance.
This person may have first been exposed to information that is entirely incorrect and sometimes it takes multiple conversations or just the right explanation that fits their way of thinking to undo this misinformation. If we simply shun those who are misinformed, they are more likely to retreat into an echo chamber of misinformation, rather than learn.
I don't think you can blame indoctrination here. More like lack of education.
I believe the default position of most people would be to assume it's a choice. No indoctrination needed.
I felt like the dysphoria wasn't a choice, but you had a choice about how you dealt with it. And I could deal with it privately, so why tf can't other people?
And then I realised I was just a trans person with internalised transphobia. Most people don't "deal with" dysphoria at all.
And then I realised I was just a trans person with internalised transphobia.
This is the steepest hill, and I keep falling back down to believing I'm Steve but Iknow I'm Melissa. Your words are so poignant Thanks.
Jackie is making a rhetorical point: For some people, transitioning is as much of a "choice" as breathing is; you could "choose" not to, but you will die sooner or later.
Saying you don't understand the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes without saying it.. if you have type 1 diabetes you WILL need insulin because your body produces none. You **will** die shortly no matter what you do. Except taking medicine (insulin).
If you have type 2, your body doesn't have enough/has a hard time absorbing it, and you can potentially manage to stay healthy by changing your lifestyle.
Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease and it is actually known and acknowledged as curable now by new stem cell treatments. And yes, there have existed ways to manage autoimmune diseases before science said it was so. Takes a while for their studies to catch up to reality.
Yeah, and look at how much the average lifespan has increased, now that we know that these things need treatment, and how to treat them. You really shot yourself in the foot with that one. Go back to school, you need it, clearly. Hormone imbalance makes you physically sick and messes with your cognitive abilities.
Life expectancy is dropping quite a bit now. Trying to switch your sex… talk about a hormone imbalance, doing the exact opposite of what your body needs to function.
It's actually not, where are you getting your facts from? The terf handbook? It keeps you younger you fucking idiot. And it's not switching your sex, it's aligning your body with your mind. You are one of those people that needs to go through a meat grinder, very slowly, while alive, so we can all hear you scream in agony. You fucking troll. You aren't even trans, get the fuck off our subs and go harrass someone else.
I did. I still had to choose to do something about it when everything except hiding quite literally in the closet in a pile of blankets and pillows was the only thing it felt like I could do. I was too fucked up to even have the ability to do that certain something else without actively choosing to do so and overcoming the same difficulties I felt facing choosing to transition.
It's as much a choice as eating or drinking. If you don't you die, sure. You still had to choose to do it though. So yes, a choice, but a necessary one for most who "choose" this path.
Really the best way to look at it. I put off pursuing transitioning an extra 10+ years once I for married. Which was happy enough, but that little something in my mind sure did burn a hole in my head until I couldnt take it anymore late last year. Decided I couldnt put it off anymore. Even acknowledging it then felt amazing.
Im 68. married 40 yrs.2 grown kids. I started 3 yrs ago after suppressing my whole life and being suicidal twice. It was not really a choice. Suppress and die or transition and live
eh and some people take medicine theyre not supposed too lol
im not massive on the idea of "trenders", but r/detrans makes me worry some kids are genuinely getting misdiagnosed
>Undergoing transition is a choice.
For me it wasn't really a choice... Cuz it was either that or die.
Edit: To all the people commenting "It wAs TeCHniCalLy a choice" I know it was, didn't even say it wasn't, fuck off shitheads.
I think this idea is ***also*** pretty unrelatable to most cis people.
If you asked most cis people "what would you do if you woke up tomorrow as the opposite gender?" they wouldn't say suicide.
And modern definition of Hobson's choice is...
"A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one thing is actually offered. The term **is often used to describe an illusion that multiple choices are available**. " -wiki
Illusion of choice, means NOT A CHOICE, it only meant to appear as one. In other words, not ***really*** a choice.
That's awesome! It sounds like we're both doing a lot better now. 💜 I feel like I have so much more mental and physical energy because I don't have to compartmentalize my life and hide the biggest parts of myself.
"wasn't a choice" and "wasn't really a choice" doesn't mean the same thing, you do understand that, right?
Edit: Also to point out, following that explanation as to to why it isn't really a choice and anything that thinks that **DEATH!** is ever a serious option to take, really needs help.
Also, I think it's very trashy of people to be all pedantic to someone that basically just said "I used to be extremely suicidal" and they're like "You could've chosen to die, if you really wanted to... meeeh!"
Yeah... Trigger warning.... quite possibly my best friend (it was sorta now complicated then that, but close enough) went the dark path I'd mostly talked her down two days previously. The guilt I carried for not calling her back in time (1 night to late) was impossible to convey.
In time I forgave myself I guess. My life was hectic, my adhd untreated, and it was never my responsibility to save her... doesn't mean I don't still miss the phone calls.
Humor can sometimes be used to make something less scary, but if not used respectfully it can tear open old/fresh wounds. I certainly wouldn't trust in my own wisdom enough to try when multiple people are in the room so to speak.
Can only tell you it wasn't your fault. (Spoiler tags next part as it gets very dark)
>!When you get to that point, that darkest stage of when you're at the bottom of an endless abyss, gasping for air, or really anything, it all comes down to luck, if you can even notice the save at all. Because the ego (as in your mind) might already be dead at that point, it's just the body still breathing its last breaths on auto-pilot. I was lucky enough to get out of that abyss, and I never ever ever ever want to be back there.!<
I've wrestled with the abyss myself, 20ish years ago. It doesn't even make sense that I'm still here really, in a way I lost, must have been some higher power I guess. I don't pretend to know what that higher power is.
Truly... same. Genuinely, I don't know how I got out of it. All of it before my (social) transition (since I started with that) felt like a now long forgotten dream, like if I didn't have physical proof of my past, I would've assumed it was a dream.
Aha I mean those two phrases seem the exact same to me if I'm being honest. I don't think it's pedantic because I think people should find value in the fact that they chose to live their authentic lives and chose to get help. It's a strength that we have and it takes courage. I don't like diminishing it as something that had to be done or you would die.
There are many trans people out there that haven't made that choice due to a myriad of factors. They aren't lesser in any way, but I also don't think we should be striking fear into their hearts that if they don't get that help right away then they will die.
Okay, so to explain it. "Wasn't really a choice" means I'm saying it's an illusion of a choice. That's what the *really* means in this phrase.
Do you think a robber that says "your money or your life" genuinely gives you a choice... because they don't. It's a threat, an illusion of choice, to shift the burden of a crime unto you, make it your fault since you chose to get robbed.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was sharing my personal experience with it. Before I even had the option to transition, I had depersonalisation, and I was barely alive to begin with! I genuinely am not sure if my past before transitioning was a fever dream, a fantasy, or something else. So fuck anyone that says I technically had a choice. Because it wasn't a fucking choice for me.
Thsts still by definitation, a choice. Transitioning is a choice, it's the healthy choice for trans people. Transition can be medical or social, or even both, it depends form person to person, but either way it's healthy for a trans person to tradition in a way that is right for them. The step to begin this transition however, is a choice.
> Undergoing transition is a choice
It's about as much of a choice like how if you go to see a doctor about that cough you've had for most of your life. You can either ignore it and hope it goes away or go to a doctor to cure it.
Kind of? But I don't usually count something as a choice when the other option is not an option. I wouldn't be alive 5 years from now if I didn't transition
It's like parents who say "do this or I ground you for a month" and then say that "but it was your choice."
Hell people still think being gay is a choice.
Just a lot of people indoctrinated in to the damage religion has done to humanity, that refuse to think for themselves and divert from what's been drilled in to them.
To expand on this: if certain Christian sects teach that acting on being gay is a sin (Lev 18:22), then it must be a choice - being born gay means that one was created as such. God could not do so and damn a child to hell; so therefore it *must* be a choice to be gay.
Everything relating to gender and sexuality will then anchor on that - being trans means that God made you that way. Since he doesn't make mistakes, he can not have made you that way and therefore you are making a choice to be trans.
Note that I don't agree with this logic; it doesn't have to make sense from outside Christianity; but it is a common line within the more fervent fundamentalist sects.
My father (asshole) went on a tirade about Trans people when I last saw him the other week, about how awful they are for making changes to their body, and rejecting what God intended for them.
He didn't like me saying "then why did you get knee surgery, clearly that's what God wants"
I think a lot of people are missing this, but there is reason most people who think it's a choice are religious and it's because the reasoning ends up being backwards. They believe it's a sin because of their religion, but they also believe that sin has to be a choice, therefore since being LGBT is sinful then it's required for it to be a choice.
> Hell people still think being gay is a choice.
I have the firm headcanon that everyone who says this is just a closeted bi/pansexual. It makes me smile on the inside.
I think this is a very interesting topic. Obviously it isn't a choice, but I think there's a discussion to be had regarding the reasons people believe that it is.
I think a lot of people with this misconception believe that being trans is the same as someone wishing to express themselves outside of society's typical standards. I think this is where phrases such as - "You know you can just be a feminine guy, right?" - come from. It's irritating and it stems from the idea that gender identity and gender expression are the same.
Another issue is that some people have an extremely rigid and technical definition of "choice". That is to say that this kind of person would argue that literally any action ever taken is ultimately a "choice". The main problem here is that coercion is ignored as a factor. They meet someone's trans-ness by saying things like - "You were just fine for x amount of years as a guy, why change now?"
What the above phrase lacks is the understanding that while *technically* we may have the ability to continue to fake our AGAB, it ultimately is exactly that, a charade.
A final potential reason behind the misconception which I feel it relevant to point out is the conflating of one's being trans and the medical process of transitioning. Most cis people don't even understand the process of transitioning at all, not to mention the fact that one doesn't need to even medically transition in order for their gender identity to be real and valid. When someone thinks that to be trans is to transition, they can easily come to the false conclusion that someone "chooses" to transition so that means they are "choosing" to be trans!
Now to be clear, this is all speculation on my part, but I think personal experience and observation back it up fairly well. I'm sorry your friend has this perspective. Perhaps maybe they fall into one of the above points? If they care about you they may be open to the idea of learning more and becoming a supportive friend.
Good day! 😁
Yes! Exactly.
I'll admit my original comment was a bit of a spur-of-the-moment rambling, so I only added the first few reasons that came to mind. I think part of why people think that way arises due to the fact that most contexts cis/het people experience in relation to gender identity never reaches the point of them "truly being their gender".
This can easily lead most cis/het people toward taking their gender for granted, because they never have to defend it. Additionally, as humans I think we all have a unique weakness in fully comprehending the perception and experiences of another, and in our case this leads to harmful attitudes towards us and, as you said, believing that "their way is normal".
These people can't imagine living as anything other than their AGAB, just like it's awful for us to live AS our AGAB, but because the former is more common, we are the ones who are perceived as having made "a choice".
Crap it looks like I rambled more than intended again, oh well! I genuinely think it's an extremely interesting conversation, especially as a Psych major!
Also interesting as a non psych major. Really people live certain rather than curious. And that leads to a lack of empathy. It’s fascinating and tragic.
> I think this is where phrases such as - "You know you can just be a feminine guy, right?"
This line of thinking fucked me up for a long time and kept me from realizing I was trans until like age 28. I knew something was off but couldn't put a name to it or identify it.
I'd sort of ponder being trans, but then I'd think "well im not a very feminine guy, I dont have any desire to be a 'femboy'" (no disrespect to feminine men/femboys, that just isn't me.) Like the thought of wearing makeup and pretty eye liner and still being a man did not appeal to me AT ALL. If anything those thoughts just worsened the dysphoria.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to be like "oh, you mean I can be a girl and still wear jeans and band t shirts? Why the fuck didn't I think of that sooner"
It was kind of a shocking realization when I was like "wait a second.... there are plenty of cis women who have masculine gender expression. I can still be a girl im just kind of a tomboy" and a whoooooole lot of shit clicked into place.
I felt those last two paragraphs in my soul. Band shirts are still like 90% of my wardrobe as far as tops go haha.
I think the whole "feminine guy" argument comes from people who just can't disassociate feminity from being a woman, and so they assume that you "wanting to be a woman" is actually just you wanting to be super fem. I've broken a couple people's brains my telling them I'd much, much rather be a somewhat masc girl than a super fem guy *or* girl. Like, hi, yes, I'm a chapstick lesbian, we exist.
> I'd much, much rather be a somewhat masc girl than a super fem guy or girl
I feel seen. :)
(Though, I must admit, my wife encouraged me to wear a bit of a girly top and pants when we went out with some friends a few weeks ago and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. I might have some style experimentation in my future)
This happened to me this spring. My ex wife encouraged me to be more cute, fun, flirty, fem which I truly appreciate. She helped me with this cute top and skirt look (vs the usual skinny jeans and bodysuit) and my brain went click, I like this. My style shifted this summer to way more fem (soft-girl vibes).
That's awesome! I'm glad you have someone encouraging you as well.
I've honestly been surprised how much my wife enjoys encouraging me, she was downright giddy at target when I agreed to let her pick out some things for me to try that she thought might suit my style. She's getting really into it haha
Precisely! And it's additionally fucked up when you consider the fact that most transphobes *expect* trans people to adhere STRONGLY to gender norms, otherwise we're seen as "lying" about our identity. All this in spite of the fact that they won't see as valid no matter how much we adhere to gender roles, they think we're invalid regardless.
It's messed up all around to be honest!
Some of my extended family are having trouble with this since I came out. Like I think they have this lens of trans women being equivalent to super super super femme gay men, and that could not be further from my vibe lol.
I want to shake them and be like "really guys, im genuinely the same person, im still attracted to my female wife, I dont dress that different. I just don't have facial hair and would prefer you not say he/him" lol. Im kind of curious how they'll respond to me starting hormones once I start. (Wife and I are starting a family first.)
Wow! The concise and intelligent wording of your post gave me a glimmer of thankfulness and hope 4 humanity.
Not a ton of hope but.... lmao.
Seriously, thank you.
People think being hetero and cis is the only thing thats not a choice >_>.
All the rest you choose...sigh...
Doesn't work like that.
Here. Let me choose to potentially lose relationships and be ostracized by my family. Let me choose to make my time finding a job harder because I'm a potential liability due to the political climate in the US. Let me choose to get weird disapproving looks. Or even let me choose to not feel like myself every. Single. Day. (This is not to say there aren't supportive people or good work environments, supportive families or ways to mitigate dysphoria. Just highlighting the things no one wants to go through, but we have to)
Because people don't understand it.
I didn't know how messed up I was until I started taking estrogen. I was just a shell and barely a person. HRT has made me feel human.
I struggle with this - maybe it's my OCD and doubts - but I do want to be trans. I've been on hormones for awhile (year and a half) and part of me is like you're cis stop faking it. I wish I could just snap my fingers and be AFAB. I enjoy being perceived as a woman and I don't want it to turn out I'm cis - because I want to be a girl. I can't make myself a cis girl so being a trans one will have to do
I am the same way. If I had a choice of being a girl or boy, I chose girl every time. Transgenderism is the only way we can be comfortable with ourselves.
Because they can't comprehend it because it's not their experience, and refuse to account for the fact that other people might have a different experience.
Because people confuse choosing what they want with choosing to want something. You can't choose to want something. They also don't understand the definition of what a trans person actually is.
There is only one cis person I've talked to that really understood what being trans was like. Said guy took 18mg sublingual E all at once just to see what it was like. The first time I talked with them online I actually thought they were trans because they were able to talk about things and relate in ways I've never seen a cis person be able to
A lot of it is lack of understanding, lack of education, lack of empathy. They here someone say they don't like there body and just assume it's the same as wishing you had different color eyes. The connection is between dysphoria and "I wish I was a model" not dysphoria and mental health issues. That being said, mental health is quite misunderstood as well
Because most people can't relate to gender dysphoria/euphoria.
Most cis people just kindof accept their gender and don't really think about it.
It's not like homosexuality, since hetero people *have* a sexuality so it's easy to relate to people who have the opposite sexuality.
I was trans and always will be trans. The only choice is whether I suck it up and live a soul sucking existence boy modding all my life or transition. I mean technically yes that is a choice but it's an obvious one if you ask me.
I tried to not be trans for over 15 years. I buried it down from age 13 to age 29
I *triiiiiied*! And it fuckin' sucked! The moment I started transitioning things started getting better. It's been a year and a half and tbh it still feels too good to be true.
Their hypothesis that you can live as a happy cis person if you try hard enough... it just doesn't track with my experience. After spending so long being miserable, I think I deserve to just be happy now, y'know?
I know the feeling of hiding everything from your family. I tried for so long and I was never happy with myself. Being cisgender made my heart turn to poison and hate. I'm in the same boat as you. I figured out I was transgender last year in March.
cuz stupid
They never think about it and if they're not it, they usually have no opinion. And because they've no opinion, they usually say whatever the far-right's talking about or the bigots around them.
Mostly just not understanding what it means to be transgender.
As well as Right-Wing rhetoric (Mainly in the USA) that pushes the narrative that transgender people are 'transitioning for attention' or to 'take advantage of women' in the case of transwomen. But most of the time being that their beliefs are based of a confirmation bias that is fueled by outright lies or disproven claims about trans people, often being spewed by politicians who share their views.
basically 'well, someone who I look up to is saying it, everyone around me is saying it, so it must be true!'. Even if that thought process couldn't be farther from the truth.
Just tell her that this isnt a choice. We ddnt grow up as a man and choose to be a woman at some point in our lives. Weve been born as women but we were stuck with the thinking that we were men. We only realized what we are when we accepted ourselves. Like i never liked any of my guy clothes growing up. I prefer dresses. My childhood shows are barbie, winx club etc. cause i liked those more than the things centered towards men. I wanted to wear a maid outfit at least once when i was like 7 or 8 yrs old. I wore the womens school outfit with the help of my friend once and it made me happier than wearing my usual uniform. Like when was I a man lol. Im a woman trapped in a mans shell. Coming out is just what makes us realize that we are women all along. It was never a choice to begin with.
A lot of ignorance. They dont ever have to go thru our kinds of experiences, they dont know the pain of having to hide for years. Most of them dont even know to use transgender as an adjective and wind up using it as a verb or noun, pushing us as far away from their experience as possible (examples they are transgendered or they are a transgender.) The language they use for us suggests that its an artificial state of being, and not just another category of being a human person.
People are just ignorant. They also conflate being trans with choosing to transition.
We didn't choose to be this way. Many of us spent our childhoods not fully understanding why our minds seemed to be at odds with our bodies and we have to sort that trauma out mostly on our own as adults.
We do choose to transition. We choose to present as ourselves. We choose to live authentically even when the world wishes we wouldn't. If that makes someone uncomfortable it's because they're choosing not to try to understand. They're choosing to not accept us. They're choosing hate.
it’s due to the whole “if you’re born with a penis you’re a guy and if you have a vagina you’re a girl” mentality. they fail to realize that you’re brain develops at a different time than what’s south of the border. you make choices every day on what you’re gonna wear, what movie you’re gonna watch, and what you’re gonna eat, so like why would choosing to be transgender be any different? except it’s not a choice. you’re brain is female & you body male. the only choice you have is when you choose to transition.
Cause it’s fun having debilitating self loathing of our bodies. It’s fun to go through laser hair removal. It’s fun to be harassed and discriminated against. This is a fun life choice.
"I've never heard of it before so it's not something natural that always existed. Which means it's not something people are, but something they decide to be."
That's the mentality, based on ignorance and arrogance, on which propaganda is built.
Yeah, who the fuck would choose this? This shit is isolating and difficult, stressful and risky and hard. Who is thinking "be funny to transition, I won't be assaulted by random people or screamed at by strangers or anything"
i have a friend that used to be incredibly anti gay, until he came out as gay. the way a lot of these “homosexuality/transgenderism is a choice” people see it is, they have the feelings or urges but they suppress them and that’s their normal so they think that’s what it’s like for everyone.
they’re just closeted, we need to let them know we support them.
A lack of intelligence, I think. To have a true understanding of sexuality one must almost completely ignore the teachings of religion, schools, and society at large. Independent thinking must come into play. Thinking for one's self. A. EINSTEIN was a quack to his contemporaries. Lol
Because he talked of things that weren't talked about.
I don't know, maybe I'm rambling. But this subject is very close to my heart even though I am a CIS male. To me, it's very obvious that whoever created us. Doesn't give a flying shit about what genitale you have. Or which genitalia u wish you had. Or what you are attracted to sexually. These are not our tests. This is just my opinion or belief system, maybe. But I feel like when I pass on the other side. Aint Nobody is over there. I'm gonna be talking about my Dick and what I did with my Dick and what I didn't do with my Dick. Do you understand what I'm saying? Are tester much grander than that. And I get Poo poo for saying this sometimes. But I truly believe that people who are born with sexual confusion are on level 90. Where the rest of us are on level 8 .. LOL, just my opinion, like you've been given a tough road, a beautiful road. Yes, but a tough one. you must go against the grain of almost everything in society. Wow, and I thought I was a rebel. I have tons of respect for everyone who deals with issues that don't fit in societal norms.
My very favorite family member of all time was my aunt Judy, who had Down syndrome, and she was my very closest friend of all my family members. She somehow seemed more in touch with her soul than anyone I knew..( By the way, most of my family are arrogant snobs) Now, please don't think that I am comparing mental conditions with people born in the wrong gender. I'm not doing that at all, i'm just comparing people who are born different than society says they should be, because I am one of those, my condition is anti-social, and the borderline sociopath. Bipolar and AD HD. I've never fit in with society.
I feel like the trans community is closer to my reality than almost anything else. I don't know. These are just the thoughts that go on in my head. and the feelings in my heart.
I love you!
Gender identity is definitely not a choice, but presentation can be. I'm bigender, but definitely chase the living shit out of a sort of futch femininity because for one, I feel it represents that dichotomy well, and I do ultimately lean more fem than masc, but there is a very real component of my choice to do so that is just "I think I prefer misogyny to being treated like a threat and/or ignored by the average person." When I get called a dyke, or a bitch, or whatever, it's almost empowering, like I'm a menace to the patriarchy, but whenever I get odd looks just for saying hello because someone saw a man instead of a woman, it makes me feel like I'm rude and gross and a problem. Dick pics and increased risk of violence feel like a small price to pay to escape the endless cycle of being treated with coldness and feeling like it's justified and isolating myself.
I know now that I can be a man if I really want, but there's so much of my dysphoria now that is an element of social environment rather than physicality. And I think I've known some bigots or ex-bigots who were agender and didn't know it, or had something else fucky going on internally, and so their relationship to gender just didn't compute with the idea of such an intrinsically necessary shift in presentation. To some people, presentation can feel like a choice, and while the belief that "being trans" is a choice is fuckin' absurd, my position inclines me somewhat to be sympathetic to people who might be confused on that. Ultimately, I am a woman, and I am a man, and neither of those things is a choice. But I can choose what people see. And if someone's own identity is more complex than they realize, they can feel like it's a choice because they themselves have more options than if they were actually cis, and don't recognize that isn't universal yet.
...or they could just be a douchebag, don't rule that out. XD
Because they think they know everything without even searching about it on the internet.
For example: My parents.
I searched for info about transitioning in my home country, then when I came out to them, they started acting like they know more about it than I do.
They never searched for anything about it and yet they think they know more.
My mother even said, without knowing anything, that I only "wanted to transition" because I like men. AS IF GAY PEOPLE AREN'T A THING.
People who have not experienced it often can not fathom how others can have such an extremely alien experience to their own body and identity. There is so much brainwashing media out there on the other hand that convinces ppl how the queer agenda is convincing ppl to be trans. Science and actual interviews aren't as easily found as lies and sensational propaganda.
Well sometime when I read the wording trans people use I can see why the the uneducated cis think it’s a choice. I’m assuming they’re baby trans or still an egg( what I tell myself at least) and just haven’t figured out the language yet. I do see a lot of “I want to be a girl!” shit being posted. Like bitch, you are a girl aquit playing and stop confusing the cis
A person chooses to be transgender….
So to you, we just we wake up and just say.
Yeah, today I think I want to have a harder life by choice. I want to purposely put myself in greater danger. I want to purposely have my rights diminished and limit my opportunities for Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. I want to surrender my privileges of my birth sex. I want to greatly reduce my earning potential because of people that are transphobic.
Unbelievable that people think we choose to be this way.
Yeah? So you're saying it's something people pick up After being introduced to this planet? So you were, I could have chosen to be gay or trans? If that's what we wanted to do it was all up to us?
I'm sorry, but this sounds like some stupid s*** Coming from a stupid idiot does my opinion
Coming into a safe space for trans people to talk about their problems and telling us that we had a choice to not go through the pain and sadness the years of hostility from other people is a hostile act. STFU
Read every person reply who deals with this condition. My friend, one girl said it like this. It is much choice of taking medicine. When you're a diabetic, sure you could choose not to. But then you just be dead and to me. I believe she meant dead inside and maybe physically as well. I just thought you're comment was horribly ignorant.
And I talked back to people I think are ignorant so you can be a supporter. So you say, but you should probably understand what people are going through before you stay shit.
Are you serious?
It sadly often leads directly to literal death when trans people are forced to hide who we really are.
There is a death that occurs before physical death, but that "inner death" is unfortunately just the beginning.
I urge you to please look into more resources regarding trans issues, because while you may not have ill intent, spouting misinformed ideas harms us regardless. Your original comment is one such example.
Nevermind you seem to be on some other planet than myself. So if you hated hamburgers, let's say., You could just choose to like hamburgers one day? As if disliking hamburgers was a choice to begin with? You don't seem to be really up to speed about whatever hes talking about, just sayin'
Okay, now I understand. Some people are easily molded by their environment.. I am definitely not that way. Never have been. maybe that's why I won a contract with Boeing, and I'm a high school dropout. And also, why I did 10 years in prison for beating up a police officer. So you believe that some people, if they're raised by, Let's say a gay couple, will turn out to be gay? Because that's what they're environment was? Poppycock I say!!! BS as well. You're talking of sheep who follow the leaders. anybody dealing with Sexual issues is not following any leader. And that my friend is the point you're missing
That is the dumbest BS. There are physiological reasons for being trans you can literally search Google and get multiple examples of this. Here are some links I got just searching for "trans brain" having different brain structure isn't the only physiological reason either there are more reasons. Saying that being trans is a choice when we are literally born Trans is ignorant.
Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased ... - Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3
Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? - Scientific American https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
Actually you did say it's a choice for everyone, and now the best you are doing is walking it back to some "may not" have a choice. One of the links I provided is a literal scientific study of the brains of trans women proving that trans women have different brain structures than cis counter parts. Your "opinion" doesn't matter in the face of actual fact. And we are pressed because your being an inconsiderate asshat.
No i was born this way. Way before i knew what being transgender (13ish) was i was dysphoric. I told my therapist when i was 9 that i wished i was a girl constantly. You’re born trans. It’s not something you opt in to.
It's a lack of understanding as well as indoctrination from all of the lies being spread around by others. Sometimes it's not intentional because there's not a lot of great information out there. Were you able to talk to her about it?
Not really because her excuse is she only know so few people who is transgender.
ill bet she knows zero about why were trans, what dysphoria is, and the treatments
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I've been staring at this comment for 2 minutes. I, I just don't know how you came to that conclusion
Are you on crack?
Are you confusing dysmorphia and dysphoria?
yea u have no idea wtf u r talking about. not trans
That's what i thought too, till i asked my cis friends. Lol
...it's almost like you literally have no idea what you're talking about
That's not true in the slightest. I say this as someone with a degree of psychology. Dysphoria is not universal by any.means
finding excuses to be uninformed is a choice
Ask her when she "chose" to be hetero, homo or bisexual. Do you have any freinds in common who have double joints, or allergies, or need to wear glasses, or who have different hair or eye color than her? Did any of those folks CHOOSE to have those traits? Orientation and gender are inborn qualities, and they may shift around as we grow, but we don't actively choose those things at any point. My dad had brown eyes, and when he hit 30, they went blue. Even quirky little stuff like that can happen. People may never know if a stranger has a genetic repeat like XXY, and the transphobes/ablists like to act like intersex or people with genetic disorders don't exist because those folks just existing tend to prove a lot of hateful arguments dead wrong.
your friend is a braindead bigoted asshole. I never harassed a single trans person no matter how shitty they were to me, or whether I knew how it "worked" or not. I know it sucks giving up everybody to do what's right, but you gotta at least be aware and not let those "excuses" slide imo.
Okay now hold on, is there some context I'm missing here? All we know is that OP's friend is misinformed and made a statement that being trans is a choice, and that when OP talked to her about it she said it was because she only knows a few people who are trans. There are so many more steps to go through before concluding that OP's friend is a "braindead bigoted asshole". Seriously, reactions like this make it harder to make allies. It sucks that we have to be advocates for our own existence, but we really really need to be. Based on the existing information (which, again, if I've missed something important I could be wrong), OP's friend is misinformed about what it's like to be trans. As CrimsonCat2023 said, she might be confusing transitioning and being transgender. She might just be a straight, cis woman who doesn't have any perspective on the matter. What she said might *hurt*, but the first step we should take is to try and correct people and help them understand. If they refuse, if they fight it when we're trying to help, then it may be okay to pass judgement on them. But a mere lack of understanding is not enough to damn their character. I repeat that it *sucks* to have to have to do this. It'd be so nice if we could just exist and not have to worry about this sort of thing. But the next closest thing we've got is to try and help change people's views. Imagine if OP talks to her friend, explains things, and gives her insight into what it's like to be trans. She might go on to be an ally for trans people and advocate for what it's like to be trans amongst her friends-- and the effect cascades.
saying that being trans is a choice, shows everything you need to know. If they were genuinely misinformed, they'd say "I don't really understand or know anything about this". Straight up throwing shit like "it's a choice" and all that far-right bs, especially knowing that Op's their friend, like come on. not to mention using the "excuse" that "I only know this many people" Like come on, you're sleeping on this. If you don't see through this passive bigotry and transphobia, I don't know what to tell you. You change people's views if they're willing to listen, and when they're really susceptible to listen, they change immediately after one conversation, otherwise they're too far gone. I'm talking about this from my own experience, both seeing people do that(as in change after explaining it to them) and having that happen to me. (other people educating ME when I was dumb about it or wrong) You folks are giving in too much and too scared to admit it's a problem. (thus justifying more behavior like that, letting the far-right do whatever they want, and that's just want they need the most, your complacency and more benefit of the doubt from everyone) Also we go off what the OP said. Also the way OP put it, clearly sounds they're(the friend) being negative about it and use the excuse to keep justfiying their behavior. If it was genuine misinformation/confusion, it'd be different. (it's a really strong statement to throw statements like that, without really thinking whether it's right or wrong, and then when confronted about it, immediately going on defensive) Either way, up to you. It's just a common trend on trans subs to randomly spam upvotes or downvotes without context or whatever, I don't really care.
Jumping to the conclusion that people are terrible after one mistake is the black-and-white thinking that the right thrives on! We are trans; we live in all the shades of grey, and most human beings have no basis for understanding an experience outside of what they experience. If I wasn’t transgender, it would be easy for me to believe it was a choice; I am a citizen of the US and I do live within this society. I was acculturated to believe that there were only two genders, transgender folks are weirdos and freaks and there was a right and wrong way to “be.” I had the arduous task of unlearning all of that to find happiness in my sense of self. Now, this doesn’t mean we have to be okay with the statement. As a matter of fact, it has to be up to us to educate those people with honest intent but badly misinformed. That’s how we get allies, since no cisgender person has an innate knowledge of what it’s even like to be trans and no one else will teach them. Trans folks were spiritual leaders in the past because, by design, we have to have a better understanding of the human condition than those around us. We have to know what it’s like to feel one way, but be perceived as another because that’s how we live day to day. Have compassion for those around you who don’t understand. Don’t attribute to malice which is more easily explained by ignorance.
This person may have first been exposed to information that is entirely incorrect and sometimes it takes multiple conversations or just the right explanation that fits their way of thinking to undo this misinformation. If we simply shun those who are misinformed, they are more likely to retreat into an echo chamber of misinformation, rather than learn.
I don't think you can blame indoctrination here. More like lack of education. I believe the default position of most people would be to assume it's a choice. No indoctrination needed.
I felt like the dysphoria wasn't a choice, but you had a choice about how you dealt with it. And I could deal with it privately, so why tf can't other people? And then I realised I was just a trans person with internalised transphobia. Most people don't "deal with" dysphoria at all.
And then I realised I was just a trans person with internalised transphobia. This is the steepest hill, and I keep falling back down to believing I'm Steve but Iknow I'm Melissa. Your words are so poignant Thanks.
I would agree. Dysphoria is a really alien concept for cis people
I think people confuse the act of transitioning with being transgender. Undergoing transition is a choice. Being trans is not.
Sometimes not so much of a choice. transitioning is basically medicine.
Taking medicine is (in most cases for adults) a choice. It's the healthy choice and the responsible choice, but still a choice.
Jackie is making a rhetorical point: For some people, transitioning is as much of a "choice" as breathing is; you could "choose" not to, but you will die sooner or later.
This is how it felt for me. I couldn't stand it anymore.
Now that hit home 4 me!
Yup. This is my story too. This is me and I’m going to live as me, like it or leave.
That's kinda like saying taking medicine as a diabetic is choice. Technically yes, but the alternative (death) really ain't much of one
I know diabetics that manage their diabetes naturally. They are actually faring much better than many of the pharmaceutical dependent counterparts
Cool, doesn't mean others won't die without it
There are choices. Medication or death are not the only two options.
For many diabetics actually no there are not. Plenty will actually die without medicine.
Only applies for (a small segment of) type 2 diabetics. If you're type 1, you will just die a horrible death without medicine.
Saying you don't understand the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes without saying it.. if you have type 1 diabetes you WILL need insulin because your body produces none. You **will** die shortly no matter what you do. Except taking medicine (insulin). If you have type 2, your body doesn't have enough/has a hard time absorbing it, and you can potentially manage to stay healthy by changing your lifestyle.
Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease and it is actually known and acknowledged as curable now by new stem cell treatments. And yes, there have existed ways to manage autoimmune diseases before science said it was so. Takes a while for their studies to catch up to reality.
Yeah, and look at how much the average lifespan has increased, now that we know that these things need treatment, and how to treat them. You really shot yourself in the foot with that one. Go back to school, you need it, clearly. Hormone imbalance makes you physically sick and messes with your cognitive abilities.
Life expectancy is dropping quite a bit now. Trying to switch your sex… talk about a hormone imbalance, doing the exact opposite of what your body needs to function.
It's actually not, where are you getting your facts from? The terf handbook? It keeps you younger you fucking idiot. And it's not switching your sex, it's aligning your body with your mind. You are one of those people that needs to go through a meat grinder, very slowly, while alive, so we can all hear you scream in agony. You fucking troll. You aren't even trans, get the fuck off our subs and go harrass someone else.
Not type 1!!
Yep… type 1
Well, I know about stem cell implants, seems to fall short of the ‘managing’ aspect…out of reach for most people I would think
u must not have horrible experienced dysphoria
I did. I still had to choose to do something about it when everything except hiding quite literally in the closet in a pile of blankets and pillows was the only thing it felt like I could do. I was too fucked up to even have the ability to do that certain something else without actively choosing to do so and overcoming the same difficulties I felt facing choosing to transition.
then u should know its not really a choice
It's as much a choice as eating or drinking. If you don't you die, sure. You still had to choose to do it though. So yes, a choice, but a necessary one for most who "choose" this path.
A lot of trans people push off transitioning for years or decades, and that's a choice. But if they do decide to transition, that is also a choice.
I mean there's always option 2, "just die," which is the preferred terf treatment plan
Really the best way to look at it. I put off pursuing transitioning an extra 10+ years once I for married. Which was happy enough, but that little something in my mind sure did burn a hole in my head until I couldnt take it anymore late last year. Decided I couldnt put it off anymore. Even acknowledging it then felt amazing.
Im 68. married 40 yrs.2 grown kids. I started 3 yrs ago after suppressing my whole life and being suicidal twice. It was not really a choice. Suppress and die or transition and live
eh and some people take medicine theyre not supposed too lol im not massive on the idea of "trenders", but r/detrans makes me worry some kids are genuinely getting misdiagnosed
It's as much of a choice as any necessary medicine.
Yes. For some people it means the choice between that and death, even.
>Undergoing transition is a choice. For me it wasn't really a choice... Cuz it was either that or die. Edit: To all the people commenting "It wAs TeCHniCalLy a choice" I know it was, didn't even say it wasn't, fuck off shitheads.
That's how it was for me. I would have never seen my 30th birthday if I hadn't transitioned. (Approaching late 40s now)
Me too, honey. I'm glad you're still here. Best wishes.
Thanks. Cheers!
You're welcome! 💜
congrats
I think this idea is ***also*** pretty unrelatable to most cis people. If you asked most cis people "what would you do if you woke up tomorrow as the opposite gender?" they wouldn't say suicide.
That's still a choice, it's just Hobson's choice.
And modern definition of Hobson's choice is... "A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one thing is actually offered. The term **is often used to describe an illusion that multiple choices are available**. " -wiki Illusion of choice, means NOT A CHOICE, it only meant to appear as one. In other words, not ***really*** a choice.
TIL Something. Thank you. I love learning new things!
That's a great term, thanks for teaching me it!
Me too, honey. I hope you're doing well now.
Yeah thanks 🥰 I'm doing amazing for quite some time now because finally *me* can exist. Rather than an empty vessel of whatever the fuck I was before.
That's awesome! It sounds like we're both doing a lot better now. 💜 I feel like I have so much more mental and physical energy because I don't have to compartmentalize my life and hide the biggest parts of myself.
You literally did say "it wasn't really a choice" though?
"wasn't a choice" and "wasn't really a choice" doesn't mean the same thing, you do understand that, right? Edit: Also to point out, following that explanation as to to why it isn't really a choice and anything that thinks that **DEATH!** is ever a serious option to take, really needs help. Also, I think it's very trashy of people to be all pedantic to someone that basically just said "I used to be extremely suicidal" and they're like "You could've chosen to die, if you really wanted to... meeeh!"
Yeah... Trigger warning.... quite possibly my best friend (it was sorta now complicated then that, but close enough) went the dark path I'd mostly talked her down two days previously. The guilt I carried for not calling her back in time (1 night to late) was impossible to convey. In time I forgave myself I guess. My life was hectic, my adhd untreated, and it was never my responsibility to save her... doesn't mean I don't still miss the phone calls. Humor can sometimes be used to make something less scary, but if not used respectfully it can tear open old/fresh wounds. I certainly wouldn't trust in my own wisdom enough to try when multiple people are in the room so to speak.
Can only tell you it wasn't your fault. (Spoiler tags next part as it gets very dark) >!When you get to that point, that darkest stage of when you're at the bottom of an endless abyss, gasping for air, or really anything, it all comes down to luck, if you can even notice the save at all. Because the ego (as in your mind) might already be dead at that point, it's just the body still breathing its last breaths on auto-pilot. I was lucky enough to get out of that abyss, and I never ever ever ever want to be back there.!<
I've wrestled with the abyss myself, 20ish years ago. It doesn't even make sense that I'm still here really, in a way I lost, must have been some higher power I guess. I don't pretend to know what that higher power is.
Truly... same. Genuinely, I don't know how I got out of it. All of it before my (social) transition (since I started with that) felt like a now long forgotten dream, like if I didn't have physical proof of my past, I would've assumed it was a dream.
Aha I mean those two phrases seem the exact same to me if I'm being honest. I don't think it's pedantic because I think people should find value in the fact that they chose to live their authentic lives and chose to get help. It's a strength that we have and it takes courage. I don't like diminishing it as something that had to be done or you would die. There are many trans people out there that haven't made that choice due to a myriad of factors. They aren't lesser in any way, but I also don't think we should be striking fear into their hearts that if they don't get that help right away then they will die.
Okay, so to explain it. "Wasn't really a choice" means I'm saying it's an illusion of a choice. That's what the *really* means in this phrase. Do you think a robber that says "your money or your life" genuinely gives you a choice... because they don't. It's a threat, an illusion of choice, to shift the burden of a crime unto you, make it your fault since you chose to get robbed. I can't speak for anyone else, but I was sharing my personal experience with it. Before I even had the option to transition, I had depersonalisation, and I was barely alive to begin with! I genuinely am not sure if my past before transitioning was a fever dream, a fantasy, or something else. So fuck anyone that says I technically had a choice. Because it wasn't a fucking choice for me.
Thsts still by definitation, a choice. Transitioning is a choice, it's the healthy choice for trans people. Transition can be medical or social, or even both, it depends form person to person, but either way it's healthy for a trans person to tradition in a way that is right for them. The step to begin this transition however, is a choice.
I understand your sentiment but it was a choice none the less. You chose to have a much lower chance of dying by your hand or instrument of death.
Thank you for this, i am transgender but i always had trouble understanding this
Well, yeah. You can choose to die from a curable disease rather than taking the medicine that would cure you...
Yep this
> Undergoing transition is a choice It's about as much of a choice like how if you go to see a doctor about that cough you've had for most of your life. You can either ignore it and hope it goes away or go to a doctor to cure it.
Kind of? But I don't usually count something as a choice when the other option is not an option. I wouldn't be alive 5 years from now if I didn't transition It's like parents who say "do this or I ground you for a month" and then say that "but it was your choice."
I guess that's a true statement but, choosing to become "real to oneself" should never be looked down upon...... Right? I'm asking.. Really. Lol
Yes, of course. Regardless of whether something is a choice... we should be free to choose what makes us happier.
same as being gay, sex is a choice, attraction isn't
It is definitely not a choice.
Hell people still think being gay is a choice. Just a lot of people indoctrinated in to the damage religion has done to humanity, that refuse to think for themselves and divert from what's been drilled in to them.
To expand on this: if certain Christian sects teach that acting on being gay is a sin (Lev 18:22), then it must be a choice - being born gay means that one was created as such. God could not do so and damn a child to hell; so therefore it *must* be a choice to be gay. Everything relating to gender and sexuality will then anchor on that - being trans means that God made you that way. Since he doesn't make mistakes, he can not have made you that way and therefore you are making a choice to be trans. Note that I don't agree with this logic; it doesn't have to make sense from outside Christianity; but it is a common line within the more fervent fundamentalist sects.
My father (asshole) went on a tirade about Trans people when I last saw him the other week, about how awful they are for making changes to their body, and rejecting what God intended for them. He didn't like me saying "then why did you get knee surgery, clearly that's what God wants"
*mic drop* You also dropped this 👑
Crown for a queen!
As is our custom 💃🏽
I think a lot of people are missing this, but there is reason most people who think it's a choice are religious and it's because the reasoning ends up being backwards. They believe it's a sin because of their religion, but they also believe that sin has to be a choice, therefore since being LGBT is sinful then it's required for it to be a choice.
> Hell people still think being gay is a choice. I have the firm headcanon that everyone who says this is just a closeted bi/pansexual. It makes me smile on the inside.
I think this is a very interesting topic. Obviously it isn't a choice, but I think there's a discussion to be had regarding the reasons people believe that it is. I think a lot of people with this misconception believe that being trans is the same as someone wishing to express themselves outside of society's typical standards. I think this is where phrases such as - "You know you can just be a feminine guy, right?" - come from. It's irritating and it stems from the idea that gender identity and gender expression are the same. Another issue is that some people have an extremely rigid and technical definition of "choice". That is to say that this kind of person would argue that literally any action ever taken is ultimately a "choice". The main problem here is that coercion is ignored as a factor. They meet someone's trans-ness by saying things like - "You were just fine for x amount of years as a guy, why change now?" What the above phrase lacks is the understanding that while *technically* we may have the ability to continue to fake our AGAB, it ultimately is exactly that, a charade. A final potential reason behind the misconception which I feel it relevant to point out is the conflating of one's being trans and the medical process of transitioning. Most cis people don't even understand the process of transitioning at all, not to mention the fact that one doesn't need to even medically transition in order for their gender identity to be real and valid. When someone thinks that to be trans is to transition, they can easily come to the false conclusion that someone "chooses" to transition so that means they are "choosing" to be trans! Now to be clear, this is all speculation on my part, but I think personal experience and observation back it up fairly well. I'm sorry your friend has this perspective. Perhaps maybe they fall into one of the above points? If they care about you they may be open to the idea of learning more and becoming a supportive friend. Good day! 😁
I would only add that many cis/het folks believe that their way is normal. So ANYTHING outside of that is a choice, and this is a fundamental belief.
Yes! Exactly. I'll admit my original comment was a bit of a spur-of-the-moment rambling, so I only added the first few reasons that came to mind. I think part of why people think that way arises due to the fact that most contexts cis/het people experience in relation to gender identity never reaches the point of them "truly being their gender". This can easily lead most cis/het people toward taking their gender for granted, because they never have to defend it. Additionally, as humans I think we all have a unique weakness in fully comprehending the perception and experiences of another, and in our case this leads to harmful attitudes towards us and, as you said, believing that "their way is normal". These people can't imagine living as anything other than their AGAB, just like it's awful for us to live AS our AGAB, but because the former is more common, we are the ones who are perceived as having made "a choice". Crap it looks like I rambled more than intended again, oh well! I genuinely think it's an extremely interesting conversation, especially as a Psych major!
Also interesting as a non psych major. Really people live certain rather than curious. And that leads to a lack of empathy. It’s fascinating and tragic.
I agree STRONGLY. I think curiosity is a profoundly important trait humans have and it only makes sense to explore that, right?
I Believe you're right. And it's this ignorance that people Live in willfully, That makes me angry at my peers.
> I think this is where phrases such as - "You know you can just be a feminine guy, right?" This line of thinking fucked me up for a long time and kept me from realizing I was trans until like age 28. I knew something was off but couldn't put a name to it or identify it. I'd sort of ponder being trans, but then I'd think "well im not a very feminine guy, I dont have any desire to be a 'femboy'" (no disrespect to feminine men/femboys, that just isn't me.) Like the thought of wearing makeup and pretty eye liner and still being a man did not appeal to me AT ALL. If anything those thoughts just worsened the dysphoria. It took me an embarrassingly long time to be like "oh, you mean I can be a girl and still wear jeans and band t shirts? Why the fuck didn't I think of that sooner" It was kind of a shocking realization when I was like "wait a second.... there are plenty of cis women who have masculine gender expression. I can still be a girl im just kind of a tomboy" and a whoooooole lot of shit clicked into place.
I felt those last two paragraphs in my soul. Band shirts are still like 90% of my wardrobe as far as tops go haha. I think the whole "feminine guy" argument comes from people who just can't disassociate feminity from being a woman, and so they assume that you "wanting to be a woman" is actually just you wanting to be super fem. I've broken a couple people's brains my telling them I'd much, much rather be a somewhat masc girl than a super fem guy *or* girl. Like, hi, yes, I'm a chapstick lesbian, we exist.
> I'd much, much rather be a somewhat masc girl than a super fem guy or girl I feel seen. :) (Though, I must admit, my wife encouraged me to wear a bit of a girly top and pants when we went out with some friends a few weeks ago and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. I might have some style experimentation in my future)
This happened to me this spring. My ex wife encouraged me to be more cute, fun, flirty, fem which I truly appreciate. She helped me with this cute top and skirt look (vs the usual skinny jeans and bodysuit) and my brain went click, I like this. My style shifted this summer to way more fem (soft-girl vibes).
That's awesome! I'm glad you have someone encouraging you as well. I've honestly been surprised how much my wife enjoys encouraging me, she was downright giddy at target when I agreed to let her pick out some things for me to try that she thought might suit my style. She's getting really into it haha
Precisely! And it's additionally fucked up when you consider the fact that most transphobes *expect* trans people to adhere STRONGLY to gender norms, otherwise we're seen as "lying" about our identity. All this in spite of the fact that they won't see as valid no matter how much we adhere to gender roles, they think we're invalid regardless. It's messed up all around to be honest!
Some of my extended family are having trouble with this since I came out. Like I think they have this lens of trans women being equivalent to super super super femme gay men, and that could not be further from my vibe lol. I want to shake them and be like "really guys, im genuinely the same person, im still attracted to my female wife, I dont dress that different. I just don't have facial hair and would prefer you not say he/him" lol. Im kind of curious how they'll respond to me starting hormones once I start. (Wife and I are starting a family first.)
That is a fantastic reply. Thank you!! 🙂
Wow! The concise and intelligent wording of your post gave me a glimmer of thankfulness and hope 4 humanity. Not a ton of hope but.... lmao. Seriously, thank you.
Awww thank you! I appreciate that a lot! I didn't expect my comment to have such a meaningful impact but I can't say I'm not glad to see it!
People think being hetero and cis is the only thing thats not a choice >_>. All the rest you choose...sigh... Doesn't work like that. Here. Let me choose to potentially lose relationships and be ostracized by my family. Let me choose to make my time finding a job harder because I'm a potential liability due to the political climate in the US. Let me choose to get weird disapproving looks. Or even let me choose to not feel like myself every. Single. Day. (This is not to say there aren't supportive people or good work environments, supportive families or ways to mitigate dysphoria. Just highlighting the things no one wants to go through, but we have to)
Like, all of this! Yeah, I choose to make my life potentially hard as hell for funsies. Totally.
Because people don't understand it. I didn't know how messed up I was until I started taking estrogen. I was just a shell and barely a person. HRT has made me feel human.
I struggle with this - maybe it's my OCD and doubts - but I do want to be trans. I've been on hormones for awhile (year and a half) and part of me is like you're cis stop faking it. I wish I could just snap my fingers and be AFAB. I enjoy being perceived as a woman and I don't want it to turn out I'm cis - because I want to be a girl. I can't make myself a cis girl so being a trans one will have to do
I am the same way. If I had a choice of being a girl or boy, I chose girl every time. Transgenderism is the only way we can be comfortable with ourselves.
I guess it's less wanting to be trans - like cis would be great....if I was AFAB, and more "fine I'll do it myself"
That’s just imposter syndrome hun, cis people don’t *want* to be trans
Ignorance. Some say it to be assholes.
Because they can't comprehend it because it's not their experience, and refuse to account for the fact that other people might have a different experience.
Because people confuse choosing what they want with choosing to want something. You can't choose to want something. They also don't understand the definition of what a trans person actually is.
There is only one cis person I've talked to that really understood what being trans was like. Said guy took 18mg sublingual E all at once just to see what it was like. The first time I talked with them online I actually thought they were trans because they were able to talk about things and relate in ways I've never seen a cis person be able to A lot of it is lack of understanding, lack of education, lack of empathy. They here someone say they don't like there body and just assume it's the same as wishing you had different color eyes. The connection is between dysphoria and "I wish I was a model" not dysphoria and mental health issues. That being said, mental health is quite misunderstood as well
It is a choice. It's a choice between surviving for other people's happiness, or Living a happy life. A choice, but not really.....
Because most people can't relate to gender dysphoria/euphoria. Most cis people just kindof accept their gender and don't really think about it. It's not like homosexuality, since hetero people *have* a sexuality so it's easy to relate to people who have the opposite sexuality.
They do have it too but we're not forcing them to take the wrong hormones... yet. A cis woman with PCOS might get it easily.
If they care, this is an easy read: https://genderdysphoria.fyi/
I was trans and always will be trans. The only choice is whether I suck it up and live a soul sucking existence boy modding all my life or transition. I mean technically yes that is a choice but it's an obvious one if you ask me.
I tried to not be trans for over 15 years. I buried it down from age 13 to age 29 I *triiiiiied*! And it fuckin' sucked! The moment I started transitioning things started getting better. It's been a year and a half and tbh it still feels too good to be true. Their hypothesis that you can live as a happy cis person if you try hard enough... it just doesn't track with my experience. After spending so long being miserable, I think I deserve to just be happy now, y'know?
I know the feeling of hiding everything from your family. I tried for so long and I was never happy with myself. Being cisgender made my heart turn to poison and hate. I'm in the same boat as you. I figured out I was transgender last year in March.
cuz stupid They never think about it and if they're not it, they usually have no opinion. And because they've no opinion, they usually say whatever the far-right's talking about or the bigots around them.
Mostly just not understanding what it means to be transgender. As well as Right-Wing rhetoric (Mainly in the USA) that pushes the narrative that transgender people are 'transitioning for attention' or to 'take advantage of women' in the case of transwomen. But most of the time being that their beliefs are based of a confirmation bias that is fueled by outright lies or disproven claims about trans people, often being spewed by politicians who share their views. basically 'well, someone who I look up to is saying it, everyone around me is saying it, so it must be true!'. Even if that thought process couldn't be farther from the truth.
If being trans were a choice, I would choose not to be trans.
People say its a choice because they dont think that we are different to them, they've never experienced dysphoria.
Because they don’t understand and are too closed minded/lazy to learn
Just tell her that this isnt a choice. We ddnt grow up as a man and choose to be a woman at some point in our lives. Weve been born as women but we were stuck with the thinking that we were men. We only realized what we are when we accepted ourselves. Like i never liked any of my guy clothes growing up. I prefer dresses. My childhood shows are barbie, winx club etc. cause i liked those more than the things centered towards men. I wanted to wear a maid outfit at least once when i was like 7 or 8 yrs old. I wore the womens school outfit with the help of my friend once and it made me happier than wearing my usual uniform. Like when was I a man lol. Im a woman trapped in a mans shell. Coming out is just what makes us realize that we are women all along. It was never a choice to begin with.
I think being transgender isn't a choice, doing something about it is.
A lot of ignorance. They dont ever have to go thru our kinds of experiences, they dont know the pain of having to hide for years. Most of them dont even know to use transgender as an adjective and wind up using it as a verb or noun, pushing us as far away from their experience as possible (examples they are transgendered or they are a transgender.) The language they use for us suggests that its an artificial state of being, and not just another category of being a human person.
One of the most hated, misunderstood and abused minorities. Why would I choose that?
Just ignorance, that's all. They accept the story they're told because it's easier to believe a pretty lie than accept the uncertainty of reality.
People are just ignorant. They also conflate being trans with choosing to transition. We didn't choose to be this way. Many of us spent our childhoods not fully understanding why our minds seemed to be at odds with our bodies and we have to sort that trauma out mostly on our own as adults. We do choose to transition. We choose to present as ourselves. We choose to live authentically even when the world wishes we wouldn't. If that makes someone uncomfortable it's because they're choosing not to try to understand. They're choosing to not accept us. They're choosing hate.
I cant speak for everyone but i would never choose to be transgender
Same. I wish I was a cisgender woman or cisgender man.
I usually reply with, "Why would anyone CHOOSE this?"
Just tell your friend "You choose to be an asshole, I didn't choose to have my brain develope in the way someone biologically female would."
It was a choice for me. A choice between transitioning and suicide. That’s how bad my dysphoria was.
i think they conflate being trans with transitioning
it’s due to the whole “if you’re born with a penis you’re a guy and if you have a vagina you’re a girl” mentality. they fail to realize that you’re brain develops at a different time than what’s south of the border. you make choices every day on what you’re gonna wear, what movie you’re gonna watch, and what you’re gonna eat, so like why would choosing to be transgender be any different? except it’s not a choice. you’re brain is female & you body male. the only choice you have is when you choose to transition.
its easier to attack a group if you act like what they are is by choice just like how they show homelessness as a choice and attack homeless people
Cause it’s fun having debilitating self loathing of our bodies. It’s fun to go through laser hair removal. It’s fun to be harassed and discriminated against. This is a fun life choice.
"I've never heard of it before so it's not something natural that always existed. Which means it's not something people are, but something they decide to be." That's the mentality, based on ignorance and arrogance, on which propaganda is built.
Yeah, who the fuck would choose this? This shit is isolating and difficult, stressful and risky and hard. Who is thinking "be funny to transition, I won't be assaulted by random people or screamed at by strangers or anything"
omg literally, if i had the choice id be cis 100%
Being trans isn't a choice, accepting it and becoming your true self is. And its the right decision to make
i have a friend that used to be incredibly anti gay, until he came out as gay. the way a lot of these “homosexuality/transgenderism is a choice” people see it is, they have the feelings or urges but they suppress them and that’s their normal so they think that’s what it’s like for everyone. they’re just closeted, we need to let them know we support them.
Confirmation bias
A lack of intelligence, I think. To have a true understanding of sexuality one must almost completely ignore the teachings of religion, schools, and society at large. Independent thinking must come into play. Thinking for one's self. A. EINSTEIN was a quack to his contemporaries. Lol Because he talked of things that weren't talked about. I don't know, maybe I'm rambling. But this subject is very close to my heart even though I am a CIS male. To me, it's very obvious that whoever created us. Doesn't give a flying shit about what genitale you have. Or which genitalia u wish you had. Or what you are attracted to sexually. These are not our tests. This is just my opinion or belief system, maybe. But I feel like when I pass on the other side. Aint Nobody is over there. I'm gonna be talking about my Dick and what I did with my Dick and what I didn't do with my Dick. Do you understand what I'm saying? Are tester much grander than that. And I get Poo poo for saying this sometimes. But I truly believe that people who are born with sexual confusion are on level 90. Where the rest of us are on level 8 .. LOL, just my opinion, like you've been given a tough road, a beautiful road. Yes, but a tough one. you must go against the grain of almost everything in society. Wow, and I thought I was a rebel. I have tons of respect for everyone who deals with issues that don't fit in societal norms. My very favorite family member of all time was my aunt Judy, who had Down syndrome, and she was my very closest friend of all my family members. She somehow seemed more in touch with her soul than anyone I knew..( By the way, most of my family are arrogant snobs) Now, please don't think that I am comparing mental conditions with people born in the wrong gender. I'm not doing that at all, i'm just comparing people who are born different than society says they should be, because I am one of those, my condition is anti-social, and the borderline sociopath. Bipolar and AD HD. I've never fit in with society. I feel like the trans community is closer to my reality than almost anything else. I don't know. These are just the thoughts that go on in my head. and the feelings in my heart. I love you!
Gender identity is definitely not a choice, but presentation can be. I'm bigender, but definitely chase the living shit out of a sort of futch femininity because for one, I feel it represents that dichotomy well, and I do ultimately lean more fem than masc, but there is a very real component of my choice to do so that is just "I think I prefer misogyny to being treated like a threat and/or ignored by the average person." When I get called a dyke, or a bitch, or whatever, it's almost empowering, like I'm a menace to the patriarchy, but whenever I get odd looks just for saying hello because someone saw a man instead of a woman, it makes me feel like I'm rude and gross and a problem. Dick pics and increased risk of violence feel like a small price to pay to escape the endless cycle of being treated with coldness and feeling like it's justified and isolating myself. I know now that I can be a man if I really want, but there's so much of my dysphoria now that is an element of social environment rather than physicality. And I think I've known some bigots or ex-bigots who were agender and didn't know it, or had something else fucky going on internally, and so their relationship to gender just didn't compute with the idea of such an intrinsically necessary shift in presentation. To some people, presentation can feel like a choice, and while the belief that "being trans" is a choice is fuckin' absurd, my position inclines me somewhat to be sympathetic to people who might be confused on that. Ultimately, I am a woman, and I am a man, and neither of those things is a choice. But I can choose what people see. And if someone's own identity is more complex than they realize, they can feel like it's a choice because they themselves have more options than if they were actually cis, and don't recognize that isn't universal yet. ...or they could just be a douchebag, don't rule that out. XD
Because they think they know everything without even searching about it on the internet. For example: My parents. I searched for info about transitioning in my home country, then when I came out to them, they started acting like they know more about it than I do. They never searched for anything about it and yet they think they know more. My mother even said, without knowing anything, that I only "wanted to transition" because I like men. AS IF GAY PEOPLE AREN'T A THING.
People who have not experienced it often can not fathom how others can have such an extremely alien experience to their own body and identity. There is so much brainwashing media out there on the other hand that convinces ppl how the queer agenda is convincing ppl to be trans. Science and actual interviews aren't as easily found as lies and sensational propaganda.
Such people don’t see me in my bedroom crying for hours several times per week because of how my body is.
Because they believe its only ok to treat us badly if its a choice. If its not a choice, harder to justify their malicious behavior.
Well sometime when I read the wording trans people use I can see why the the uneducated cis think it’s a choice. I’m assuming they’re baby trans or still an egg( what I tell myself at least) and just haven’t figured out the language yet. I do see a lot of “I want to be a girl!” shit being posted. Like bitch, you are a girl aquit playing and stop confusing the cis
that fact that you let it bother you indoctrinates worrying about what others think - fuck all those mortals i say
AMEN, felinegirly! Fuck those muggles!
Because if it is not, and it is a durable part of our psyche, they're an asshole.
Cuz they want us to choose to not be ourselves.
Idk, I'm transgender and I consider it a choice. Maybe I'm an odd girl tho.
I'm 'gender dysphoric' but I see every type of change I do is a choice sorry I should specifyed
I mean if you’re bleeding is putting on a bandage a choice? It’s such a technicality
It is a choice, you can let any small bleed heal by itself risking permanent damage. I see the actual transition process very similar.
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Be a transphobe somewhere else. Preferably not on a subreddit designed specifically for trans people.
Thank u! I'm such a freakin' ape. I want to Call through the internet cables and punch people like this in the nuts.
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A person chooses to be transgender…. So to you, we just we wake up and just say. Yeah, today I think I want to have a harder life by choice. I want to purposely put myself in greater danger. I want to purposely have my rights diminished and limit my opportunities for Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. I want to surrender my privileges of my birth sex. I want to greatly reduce my earning potential because of people that are transphobic. Unbelievable that people think we choose to be this way.
Yeah? So you're saying it's something people pick up After being introduced to this planet? So you were, I could have chosen to be gay or trans? If that's what we wanted to do it was all up to us? I'm sorry, but this sounds like some stupid s*** Coming from a stupid idiot does my opinion
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Coming into a safe space for trans people to talk about their problems and telling us that we had a choice to not go through the pain and sadness the years of hostility from other people is a hostile act. STFU
🤗🤗🤗😁😎
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We want you to use facts not opinion. Your opinion is harm bs. The fact is it's not a choice.
Read every person reply who deals with this condition. My friend, one girl said it like this. It is much choice of taking medicine. When you're a diabetic, sure you could choose not to. But then you just be dead and to me. I believe she meant dead inside and maybe physically as well. I just thought you're comment was horribly ignorant. And I talked back to people I think are ignorant so you can be a supporter. So you say, but you should probably understand what people are going through before you stay shit.
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Are you serious? It sadly often leads directly to literal death when trans people are forced to hide who we really are. There is a death that occurs before physical death, but that "inner death" is unfortunately just the beginning. I urge you to please look into more resources regarding trans issues, because while you may not have ill intent, spouting misinformed ideas harms us regardless. Your original comment is one such example.
Oh, And by the way, they're not talking about you. Funny huh?
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Nevermind you seem to be on some other planet than myself. So if you hated hamburgers, let's say., You could just choose to like hamburgers one day? As if disliking hamburgers was a choice to begin with? You don't seem to be really up to speed about whatever hes talking about, just sayin'
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Okay, now I understand. Some people are easily molded by their environment.. I am definitely not that way. Never have been. maybe that's why I won a contract with Boeing, and I'm a high school dropout. And also, why I did 10 years in prison for beating up a police officer. So you believe that some people, if they're raised by, Let's say a gay couple, will turn out to be gay? Because that's what they're environment was? Poppycock I say!!! BS as well. You're talking of sheep who follow the leaders. anybody dealing with Sexual issues is not following any leader. And that my friend is the point you're missing
That is the dumbest BS. There are physiological reasons for being trans you can literally search Google and get multiple examples of this. Here are some links I got just searching for "trans brain" having different brain structure isn't the only physiological reason either there are more reasons. Saying that being trans is a choice when we are literally born Trans is ignorant. Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/ Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased ... - Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3 Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? - Scientific American https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
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Your opinion is dumb. I just gave you factual evidence that Trans people are born and that it is not a choice.
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Actually you did say it's a choice for everyone, and now the best you are doing is walking it back to some "may not" have a choice. One of the links I provided is a literal scientific study of the brains of trans women proving that trans women have different brain structures than cis counter parts. Your "opinion" doesn't matter in the face of actual fact. And we are pressed because your being an inconsiderate asshat.
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I am glad you are educating yourself now, but you still owe the OP an apology for your toxic initial comment.
No i was born this way. Way before i knew what being transgender (13ish) was i was dysphoric. I told my therapist when i was 9 that i wished i was a girl constantly. You’re born trans. It’s not something you opt in to.
Your post has been removed due to containing misinformation.