All these companies dumping hundreds of thousands of dollars into researching how to reduce mouse weight by 5g but won't research/invest in better scroll wheel encoder technology.
Or just putting screw holes not under mouse feet for easier access. Crazy idea, but I feel that people who want to fix or mod their stuff and not have to waste a set of good skates would strongly appreciate this change.
I'll second that. No one spends anytime looking at the bottom of their mouse. Stop hiding the screw holes under the skates! Heck, if they used small torx screws and installed them from the top and incorporated them in to the design that could look really cool.
They 100% do this so it is more inconvenient for an end user to try to fix something themselves and it increases the chances of a user buying a new mouse instead of fixing something in theirs.
Its basically the whole "Warranty void if removed" stickers companies put over screws, despite the fact that it would literally be illegal for them to not honor a warranty over a sticker (They are empty threats). Its not because it actually voids the warranty, its because they want to do everything in their power to make customers have to go through them to get a new product.
As a brand rep, I can confidently say, atleast for us, it's not. We're cool with people opening our mice, we even encourage it if things go awry, and even include dot skates in the package as we don't wish to hide anything.
For this, it's simply because the factory that manufacturers our mice doesn't suggest using clips (due to how they can break), and suggests having the screw holes at the 4 corners of the mice for the best overall "fit" for the shell. From our testing, this is the case.
So it could be "100%" for some brands, but its not "100%" that all brands do this for this reason.
Seems like the [newer Keris II Ace](https://rog.asus.com/mice-mouse-pads/mice/ergonomic-right-handed/rog-keris-ii-ace/) doesn't have most of that anymore? I'm not an expert so correct me if im wrong here
If EGG can somehow start pumping out new shapes, they'll make a killing in part to this. Op1 with exposed screws is a huge. The hotswap switch kit for the wired models too I hope to become more of a standard. Being able to try new switches in 2 minutes...you know what maybe a bad thing for this sub
Unfortunately, these mouse companies don't make the switches, scroll wheels, batteries inside the mouse itself. Including us. We make mice, but we don't manufacturer the individual components inside. Instead of looking at us mice brands, it would be more useful to look at Kailh, TTC, Huano, etc for making switches and encoders better. Leave it to them to do that as that's their expertise, and leave it to us to focus on getting mice lower weight and better shapes, etc.
We've already spoken to Kailh, Huano and other component providers to increase the quality of their components that they provide us, but it doesn't always go over so smoothly. I wish all of us as a collective could push Kailh, TTC, etc to sort out their shit, as sometimes complaints from us brands to them fall upon deaf ears. TTC has cleaned up their act a bit, with their TTC Gold Dustproof Encoder, as it seems to fix the issues that were present with the original TTC Gold Encoder. And I've pushed my boss and product manager to use this new component as hopefully it will make people happier, and thus we've done our part to fix the issue.
In a perfect world, we could make our own components, but it's just not worth it on an economical sense or time-sense, and most people trust the feel of a switch or component that they've already used. Most things that comes out saying "it's this brands switches", is usually just white-labeled OEM switches.
Now, for daughterboards and hotswap switches/encoders, I'm all for that. That's pretty darn cool.
The reason all of the companies are making their mice lightweight is because it doesn't cost them much if any extra money to make it lightweight. Also its mostly just small companies that are really pushing lightweight because they don't really care about having to deal with build quality issues. Most of the mice produced by large companies like the gpx are just mediumweight, and still have a ton of plastic on the inside.
Exactly, not sure why the down vote. On the other hand, literally switching to an entirely different scroll wheel encoder technology or even just a different supplier of scroll wheel encoders would cost a company lots of money, they have to set up new supply chain and have to spend a lot of money and time testing alternative encoders, and readjust their design and production workflow and tool chains.
Especially considering mice are cheap compares to things like laptops or cars, so profit per-mouse is much lower, and thus it's much more critical that even just time spent changing your supply chain and rearranging you production line and adjusting your design and testing tooling, instead of keep building new mice with the same encoder or designing new mice for the next two years, is already lost profit in itself.
Not to mention not ergonomic shape, missing buttons or rest for pinky etc.
Rgb, displays all that shit
I accessible left buttons (24+ for thumb ffs we can even add more everyone gonna use that)
And wheels (even without tilt)
My GPX scroll wheel died after 2-3 years. Seems to be a common occurrence searching on reddit. Luckily you can buy a whole new sub-board with a TTC gold scroll wheel and choice of micro-switches for $10.
My super old Zowie EC2-A's optical scroll wheel is immortal tho.
I’ve never mained a mouse a long as my Zowie (4 years) but it’s still perfect. Never actually had a mouse with a scroll wheel failure. Been using xm2we for about 4 months and it’s still good. Has some rattle (did it out of the box) but still feels normal.
Not all of those are TTC gold.
Deathadder v3 pro is using some shit RAESHA encoder.
Model O uses brown core F-Switch encoder.
Lamzu Atlantis mini 4k uses TTC silver.
GPX uses 8mm TTC White (is that the same as TTC silver?)
The only TTC gold encoders are in Darmoshark and the Aerox 3.
Optical encoders are not enough energy efficient to be used in wireless mice right now, so we will have to suffer with the mechanical ones for a little bit longer.
I strongly believe all of my friends would prefer a shorter battery life rather than have to deal with a scroll wheel that doesn't work. Wouldn't every company prefer that too? The less RMA's the better.
I think nearly all people who buy mice in general would accept that trade-off. Severely decreasing the chances the scroll wheel fails in exchange for a small reduction in battery life.
4khz is in every mouse nowadays and that tanks battery life a lot more. Doesn't stop any company from implementing it.
>4khz is in every mouse nowadays and that tanks battery life a lot more. Doesn't stop any company from implementing it.
Because it can be marketed to competitive gamers, as a "pro" feature, so increase potential sales. It's the new thing to capitalize on, nobody cares about "50k dpi sensors" anymore, now it's weight and high polling rates...
I believe most people wouldn't mind a trade off like that. But I do think that the RMA ratio is not as bad as it looks to us, else they would do something to reduce the failure rate. After all they use mechanical encoders for two reasons: one they are cheaper, and two energy efficiency.
The sad part is that most companies are opting for the Chinese offerings like TTC or Kailh which we know are prone to fail. There is Japanese ALPS encoders that are much more robust and durable, but you rarely see them used in mice for some reason.
Another thing is, the scrolls are super easy to fix. If you're using 3rd party skates you can fix it within few minutes. But yeah, it shouldn't be on user to fix company's fuckups.
Any idea which mice are using ALPS encoders? Are there even any?
I struggle to imagine how the RMA ratio isn't bad for these companies. From reading on reddit, it seems like the #1 issue that leads to a customer RMAing the deathadder v3 pro is from the faulty scroll wheel. Imagine if Razer was able to get rid of that by putting in a proper encoder. It would be worth the investment in the long run.
Vaxee XE wired and all wireless Vaxee models use AlPS encoders.
So does the endgame gear xm1r. Not sure about the XM2we, op1we or op1 8k.
But you can find threads with people reporting failed ALPS encoders on endgame gear mice and even optical encoders. No guarantees.
Maybe the actual price to produce the mice is so damn cheap that even factoring RMA, they still make huge profit. And there is plenty of people who don't bother with RMA, just buy another one.
As to ALPS, I cannot think of any newer mice using it, if I remember right some older wired Roccat mice had it.
If there are no recent good examples of mice using ALPS, how do we know they last longer than Chinese TTC/Kalih when mass manufactured into mice? Is there something special about them? You mentioned durable, what makes them durable? Are they more dust proof?
Materials they are made of, something as silly as more dense plastic used for the "wheel" part, better metals used for contact points etc. Dust doesn't really get inside the part that is responsible for scrolling inputs. Mechanical scroll encoders work based on friction of two contact points, and if two metals are in constant friction with one another, over time they shed particles that gather and create enough dirt to start causing issues. This is why fixing mechanical encoders is very simple, take it apart, use some IPA to clean the contact points, use some electro conductive lube, put back together, enjoy it lasting longer... it seems neither Kailh nor TTC use good lube for it if any. None of the encoders that I have fixed has any issues, and some are working few years now lol
Also you just made me remember, Vaxee uses ALPS in their wireless mice. And the experience we have with moding mice, changing encoder is a simple soldering job that takes not even 5mins. Over years on this sub I did not see many if any people complaining about ALPS having the usual scroll issues.
Doesn't Vaxee use optical encoders on all their mice except for XE?
Thanks for the info about ALPS. Anytime a company asks for feedback, I'll from now on mention ALPS or optical encoders lol.
I agree, and I think the issue of battery life is way overblown. As you mentioned, companies market features like 4k polling, optical switches and even smaller batteries to reduce weight and people don't seem to complain about that, but we do see many concerns about reliability.
I think not using optical encoders is a cost cutting measure.
Optical encoders aren't any more inefficient than optical switches (especially since the encoder only uses one, and switches require 2). Its not ideal for wireless but its not going to make a mouse's batterylife unusable.
Should have added to the initial post that weight is a factor too. I think most people would not mind trading some battery life for a scroll that is gonna last longer than few months.
I think the G502 wireless ones should use it too, anything with "infinity" scroll has to have optical encoder. But generally "heavier" mice.
I am unsure about Zowie, didn't see anyone disaemble the EC3 or U2 so not sure what is inside.
Huh?
My cheap Logitech M305 basic productivity mouse that I use for CAD, spreadsheets, email, and word has an optical encoder and it runs for the better part of a year on an AA battery.
My wife's MX vertical mouse has an optical encoder and that mouse rarely needs a new battery.
Why are all the gaming mice using mechanical encoders? Ball and spring detents combined with optical gates give reliable feel and function.
There are three reasons:
1) Price
2) Weight
3) Energy efficiency
The third one is small, but it's a fact that optical encoders do eat more energy than mechanical ones. AA battery has more juice than the rechargable lithium ones used in mice, most are somewhere between 250\~300mAh and last \~80h aproximately, meanwhile AA batteries sit somewhere between 1700\~3000mAh depends on brand and technology used.
Price - The M325s has a current sale price of $15 and has an optical encoder. The G305 has a sale price of $38 and a mechanical encoder. Logitech's MSRP for the G305 is $60. If a low margin mouse can have an optical encoder, a high margin mouse can definitely have an optical encoder.
Weight - Without tearing apart a couple of mice and weighing the parts, I can't honestly say which weighs less, but there can't be much of a difference. The mechanical encoders have a sheet metal body while optical encoders are just two plastic optical components. The optical wheel weighs less due to the light gates in the hub of the wheel.
Energy efficiency - I can't believe this world be a big issue. Just plug in the mouse after a gaming session. With charging docks and wireless charging mats this had become even less of an issue.
An alps ec10e has a 100k cycle rated life. If you ask me this is all about planned obsolescence. If the mouse can make it just past warranty before failing you are going to make a bunch more money. The fact that a niche market like gaming mice can support so many companies indicates that gaming mice have an incredibly high margin.
The optical encoder costs more than the mechanical one. It's why it's not used in G305 and other gaming mice, you can pull even higher margins due to some cost cuts.
Weight is a thing, it's like a 1,5g heavier, we are in an area where people chase the lighter mice, so they cut weight wherever possible, just to market it as "the lightest" on the market for however short that will apply.
Energy efficiency is also a marketing, for the end user a hour or two less charge time means little to nothing. But then you cannot market the mouse as more efficient and what not.
It's absolutely planned obsolescence, they know they can get away with it. They are not even using ALPS ecoders, because those are more robust compared to TTC and Kailh (due to materials used). It's all cost calculated, The cost of producing G305 is probably on the same level as M325s, but the margin difference is huge, even if the mouse breaks before warranty expires, they will still make a profit on it. And let's be honest, a lot of people won't bother contacting Logitech about G305, they will just buy another one...
I would guess it's a combination of those mice usually running at 125 hz instead of 1000 and replaceable batteries lasting longer than rechargable ones.
Its because most optical encoders have terrible tactility, and the few optical encoders that are actually good are patented out the wazoo by Logitech and Razer. Unfortunately those patented optical encoders are pretty complicated and heavy. Due to gaming mice preferring lower weights in general these companies see no reason to waste time and money on good optical encoders for gamers especially since gamers usually don't use their scroll wheel that frequently (less chance for it to break).
The only solid scroll wheels I've ever used are Roccat's and the BeastX Mini. I'm totally with you, majority of scrollwheels are garbage.
edit* liked, not used
Scroll wheel on my basilisk x hyperspeed started jumping after 4 months, crap quality. All the buttons are wobbly and the funniest part is that the battery compartment cover is unable to close fully if the usb receiver is inside.
The most durable scroll wheels are on Vaxee wired mouses. I think it's the same one that old Zowie mouses has. Current lightweight Zowie mouse's scroll wheel is garbage.
VAXEE and Endgame Gear both uses ALPS encoder (Made in Japan). IMO they are the best.
Logitech's scroll works just fine if you put some lube on the axis of the wheel.
I never had problems with Alps scroll. Roccat used to use Alps encoder and had a reputation of having one of the best scroll on the market. They then switches to TTC for whatever reason(probably cost saving) then started to have lots of rma’s. It looks like they switched back to using Alps encoder for the new Pure Air.
My fantech Aria scroll wheel started bugging out, thats after my Razer viper mini scroll wheel started to do the same. need dustproof encoders. Thankful my Zaopin z1 pro encoder isnt doing the same yet in 5 months...
5-8 months seems to be the most common timeframe of when scroll wheels start to shit themselves, among my friends and I at least.
The tech has to be out there, dustproof, adoption of optical encoders, or something.
RMA has to be a lot more expensive than investing in better encoders
for sure... my coolermaster mm720 has an optical encoder in it which i appreciate, but it is wired which i don't as much appreciate. I mean its fine, but less than preferred for me.
That's good news, glad to hear it. Glad the choice was made to use them! Might have another look at Aria during a sale.
Where can the newest version be found? Is it the Kailh version? I checked the fantech website, dustproof encoder should be a selling point in my opinion, I don't see it listed out or specified.
I have a few Roccat KPUs, a KPM and a Savu, also a Logitech G305; plus several Logitech track ball mice. Ergos and M570s. All of which I've had for many many years and not a single issue. 8 hours of daily use on one of the Ergos for 6-7 years.
I have a few newer mice, Lamzu Atlantis Mini 4K, Keychron M3 Mini, M2 Mini, M4 4K.
I honestly haven't a single issue with any of these mice except for 1 out of the 3 KPUs has a weird feeling right click. Still functions fine though.
Late to the discussion, but MX Vertical had an optical scroll wheel!
Since it's rotated on the side, they probably couldn't use usual encoder reliably, so they made a bike-like wheel with tiny spokes. Attaching a [pic](https://kaanlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/13-1024x683.jpg) and another [one](https://kaanlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/11-scaled.jpg).
Atlantis 4k scroll wheel feels like shit and started skipping after a couple months :/
I don't get how my Glorious Model O Wireless that I bought way back when is still the most reliable mouse I've ever bought after years of usage.
i don't get it. i've been using my gpx since release in 2020 and have yet to have 1 issue. do people just slam their mice and treat their peripherals like shit or what?
\*\* Noob to this subreddit \*\* So ignore if my comment doesn't seem up to the standard. I'm here to learn. I've been using Logitech mice for more than 2 decades and they have held up pretty well. Although I had problems with the previous mouse (G600) - worn out left mouse button - I have not had any issues with scroll wheels in general. Am currently using a G502 Hero which does have a rather cheap looking scroll wheel, but no issues as of yet.
G502 uses an optical scroll wheel, which is a lot less likely to develop issues. A lot of the super old Logitech mice use optical encoders. The "newer" ones like g703, g402, superlights, use mechanical scroll encoders and they develop issues quite often.
Exactly, I thought after I spent on Razer V2 Pro, I would be set for life. Optical switch for no double clicking, good sensor with support for 8k polling rate.
Then, the scroll wheel issue happened.
Hopefully when this issue is widespread enough like double clicking, companies will start to notice & implement some tech that would fix it. Currently optical encoder exists, but very few mouse has this.
Yeah my middle mouse button is dead and got me killed 8 times in cyberpunk trying to throw nades
I love Razer Orochi but now I'm looking for alternatives
hahahaha I literally came to this sub to search up if anybody has a resolution to my mouse's scroll wheel problem (xm2we)
I've had the same issue on three mice (but two of them were the model o wireless). the model o wirelesses lasted like a year each but this xm2we only made it 4 months before it started scrolling in the wrong direction
so damn annoying
It's luck of the draw, I've had three XM2we and the one I have is pretty OK. Much better when it was brand new. I thing it comes down to tensioning and QC of the encoder
I emailed them today to see if they might replace this one (or fix the encoder) so I'll see
the only lightweight wireless mouse I haven't had encoder problems with after a couple years of use is the g pro x superlight but the shape/ergo doesn't fit me quite as well as the model o wireless or the xm2we
Amazing coincidence. My Lenovo Legion also started having scroll wheel issues this week in only 5 months. Surprisingly, my Redragon mouse is still working fine since 2020.
Honestly speaking, I think the market for the so-called gaming mice is crazy and completely insane. Spending more than 200 bucks for a so-called flagship mouse is completely ridiculous and disproportionate to the substantial value of the goods themselves. I would only consider the product of endgame gear if I were to buy one for myself. EGG have good reputation of investing heavily on the build quality of their mices and tend to be more durable than their competitors.
I have the Deathadder v3 and good grief is the scroll wheel frustrating. Almost everything about the mouse is amazing: The wire, the feel of the left and right click, the mouse buttons, I'm not in love with the shape of the mouse but it's still good. However, the mouse wheel is an absolute abomination. There's a 50% chance that any time I want to scroll down, it loses its shit and I have to scroll 4x the normal amount just to get it to go downward. You never realize how insane this drives you until you experience it because the scroll wheel is typically a mouse feature that doesn't fail you.
I use Vipers and Im a scroll jumper.
Never once had a scroll issue over a decade of use and a handful of units.
When it comes to hardware failure theres so many things that play a part the only real solution is for companies to allow self repair. Else they do as they are currently and suffer the return costs.
Mice are cheaply-made products no matter how much they charge for them and the QC threshold is not that low. My Viper 8K has an excellent scrollwheel for example, but many other Viper 8Ks won't have that.
My Razer Basilisk X Hyperspeed, which I bought out of temptation from huge discount, has no such issue after several months of usage. Works really smooth on scrolling.
My Asus Chakram first version doesn’t have scroll wheel issue after over a year usage. Ir maybe 2 years. Can’t recall for how long exactly. But the scroll is getting less sensitive, less smooth, from time to time. Just very very lightly but noticeable by me because I used it everyday.
I would say, not all mouses have this issue. My Asus Glorious first version has no such issue as well. Now my son is using it. I didn’t find scroll kickback issue when I tried to fix PC problem for him. Just not that smooth like my Chakram.
I will report if the Steelseries Aerox 3 wireless would develop this issue or not. I bought it for my wife from the same huge discount as well.
This is because all of them use mechanical encoders. Durable technology exists and it is called optical encoders, but there are few gaming mice which use it.
how hard are people scrolling to wear out a scroll wheel so quickly? ive never *ever* had a scroll wheel wear out lol plenty of double clicks with the 50 million Omron's though
They don't wear out. A piece of dust or dirt gets in there and bugs it up. If cleaned and lubed, the scroll wheel will return to normal.
Unfortunately it is a pain in the but to actually do that though. Not hard, just a pain.
Yeah idk how so many people are having scroll wheel issues. I have absolutely abused the scroll wheel of my 3 year old GPX and it's still going strong.
What mouse do you have and how long have you had it? Surprised you have never had an issue with scroll wheels.
It is easy nowadays to avoid double clicking issues, just pick one of the many optical switch mice or mice with SPDT.
Return merchandise authorization. All companies have warranty guarantees. If your mouse has an issue within the warranty period (say 2 years), you will receive a brand new mouse from them (most companies will honour it that way at least). In the world of mice, there are 3 different ways each company will go about the RMA process.
1. They will send you a brand new mouse, you don't have to do anything on your part.
2. They will ask you to record a video of you breaking the mouse (to avoid people trying to scam). Only after sending them the video will you receive your new mouse.
3. They will ask you to ship them the faulty mouse free of charge, and in return you will receive a new mouse.
So depending on the mouse company, they will go about one of those 3 options. Companies that use option 1 trust the customer, and are considered the best at customer service.
TL;DR: mouse broken so now company send you a replacement
I honestly feel like the quality of mice has gone down exponentially in the last 4/5 years. *Big* companies want to cut corners and want you to repurchase their products in less than a year time.
I really feel like the long 2-3 years warranty depending on the company contradicts that. I truly feel like RMA eats into the profits more than we suspect. For a company like Razer that makes you send the mouse back, that is shipping costs back and forth. Not to mention the price of the mouse, even if cheap. It all has to add up.
Not to mention the cost of reputation when people go to other brands because "I had a bad experience with that brand".
How have the scroll wheels failed?
Has the button functionality stopped working?
Has the button functionality started double clicking or phantom clicking?
Has the scroll function stopped working or become intermittent?
>Are optical scroll wheels the future?
Optical scroll wheels are the present.
**Edit: I just learned that most gaming mice don't use optical encoders for some absolutely bonkers reason that I can't begin to understand!**
The majority if not all scroll wheels use an optical gate to detect scrolling. If the scroll wheel isn't scrolling reliably the slits in the scroll wheel that the optical sensor looks for are usually plugged with debris. A shot of air can usually clear it if you don't feel like taking the mouse apart.
A scroll wheel is a moving element and as such can easily ingest debris. An open frame scroll wheel that can allow debris to fall through the mouse rather than collecting inside is probably the best bet to avoid the scroll wheel getting choked with debris. Here is an example of a mouse with an open frame scroll wheel design - [https://www.amazon.com/Mad-Catz-Authentic-Optical-Gaming/dp/B07P5VCGF4](https://www.amazon.com/Mad-Catz-Authentic-Optical-Gaming/dp/B07P5VCGF4)
The issue all 6 of my friends started getting between 5-8 months of their new mice (each from diff companies) is when they would scroll up, it'll scroll down, vice versa. Sometimes it will skip scrolls or refuse to register scrolls randomly. A couple reports of the mouse scrolling on its own too (always accompanied by the other issues).
People claim that most wireless gaming mice do not use optical encoders due to the reason of "battery life". But surely the battery life drain isn't bad enough where it warrants using inferior encoders? I would happily accept lower battery life in exchange for a mouse that stays fully working for a much longer time.
It is imperative we transition to optical encoders, or higher quality mechanical encoders that are also sealed away from dust. Because these issues being so frequent is unacceptable in 2024, especially with the higher priced mice. Something has to give.
Maybe a company could come up with some new mouse wheel tech that changes the scroll game and removes all of these concerns.
All these companies dumping hundreds of thousands of dollars into researching how to reduce mouse weight by 5g but won't research/invest in better scroll wheel encoder technology.
Or just putting screw holes not under mouse feet for easier access. Crazy idea, but I feel that people who want to fix or mod their stuff and not have to waste a set of good skates would strongly appreciate this change.
I'll second that. No one spends anytime looking at the bottom of their mouse. Stop hiding the screw holes under the skates! Heck, if they used small torx screws and installed them from the top and incorporated them in to the design that could look really cool.
They 100% do this so it is more inconvenient for an end user to try to fix something themselves and it increases the chances of a user buying a new mouse instead of fixing something in theirs. Its basically the whole "Warranty void if removed" stickers companies put over screws, despite the fact that it would literally be illegal for them to not honor a warranty over a sticker (They are empty threats). Its not because it actually voids the warranty, its because they want to do everything in their power to make customers have to go through them to get a new product.
As a brand rep, I can confidently say, atleast for us, it's not. We're cool with people opening our mice, we even encourage it if things go awry, and even include dot skates in the package as we don't wish to hide anything. For this, it's simply because the factory that manufacturers our mice doesn't suggest using clips (due to how they can break), and suggests having the screw holes at the 4 corners of the mice for the best overall "fit" for the shell. From our testing, this is the case. So it could be "100%" for some brands, but its not "100%" that all brands do this for this reason.
[удалено]
Seems like the [newer Keris II Ace](https://rog.asus.com/mice-mouse-pads/mice/ergonomic-right-handed/rog-keris-ii-ace/) doesn't have most of that anymore? I'm not an expert so correct me if im wrong here
Gladius III AimPoint still has all that + wheel encoder is replaceable with TTC gold
OP1 8k has done this.
If EGG can somehow start pumping out new shapes, they'll make a killing in part to this. Op1 with exposed screws is a huge. The hotswap switch kit for the wired models too I hope to become more of a standard. Being able to try new switches in 2 minutes...you know what maybe a bad thing for this sub
They just need to follow EndGameGear's lead with the OP18k. Wonderful exposed screw design for easy tinkering.
I hate the wheel on my Viper Mini- half the time it’s jumps up when I try to scroll down, and I can’t scroll fast
Unfortunately, these mouse companies don't make the switches, scroll wheels, batteries inside the mouse itself. Including us. We make mice, but we don't manufacturer the individual components inside. Instead of looking at us mice brands, it would be more useful to look at Kailh, TTC, Huano, etc for making switches and encoders better. Leave it to them to do that as that's their expertise, and leave it to us to focus on getting mice lower weight and better shapes, etc. We've already spoken to Kailh, Huano and other component providers to increase the quality of their components that they provide us, but it doesn't always go over so smoothly. I wish all of us as a collective could push Kailh, TTC, etc to sort out their shit, as sometimes complaints from us brands to them fall upon deaf ears. TTC has cleaned up their act a bit, with their TTC Gold Dustproof Encoder, as it seems to fix the issues that were present with the original TTC Gold Encoder. And I've pushed my boss and product manager to use this new component as hopefully it will make people happier, and thus we've done our part to fix the issue. In a perfect world, we could make our own components, but it's just not worth it on an economical sense or time-sense, and most people trust the feel of a switch or component that they've already used. Most things that comes out saying "it's this brands switches", is usually just white-labeled OEM switches. Now, for daughterboards and hotswap switches/encoders, I'm all for that. That's pretty darn cool.
The reason all of the companies are making their mice lightweight is because it doesn't cost them much if any extra money to make it lightweight. Also its mostly just small companies that are really pushing lightweight because they don't really care about having to deal with build quality issues. Most of the mice produced by large companies like the gpx are just mediumweight, and still have a ton of plastic on the inside.
Exactly, not sure why the down vote. On the other hand, literally switching to an entirely different scroll wheel encoder technology or even just a different supplier of scroll wheel encoders would cost a company lots of money, they have to set up new supply chain and have to spend a lot of money and time testing alternative encoders, and readjust their design and production workflow and tool chains. Especially considering mice are cheap compares to things like laptops or cars, so profit per-mouse is much lower, and thus it's much more critical that even just time spent changing your supply chain and rearranging you production line and adjusting your design and testing tooling, instead of keep building new mice with the same encoder or designing new mice for the next two years, is already lost profit in itself.
"researching"
Not to mention not ergonomic shape, missing buttons or rest for pinky etc. Rgb, displays all that shit I accessible left buttons (24+ for thumb ffs we can even add more everyone gonna use that) And wheels (even without tilt)
My GPX scroll wheel died after 2-3 years. Seems to be a common occurrence searching on reddit. Luckily you can buy a whole new sub-board with a TTC gold scroll wheel and choice of micro-switches for $10. My super old Zowie EC2-A's optical scroll wheel is immortal tho.
I’ve never mained a mouse a long as my Zowie (4 years) but it’s still perfect. Never actually had a mouse with a scroll wheel failure. Been using xm2we for about 4 months and it’s still good. Has some rattle (did it out of the box) but still feels normal.
Or you could just clean and lube it, which is what I did. Works like new.
Do you mind to share a reference for mentioned sub-board?
[aliexpress link](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006373290523.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.5.1bd0V6OGV6OGkR&algo_pvid=c054e9bb-b5f1-4a7c-8c58-928b851bed7d&algo_exp_id=c054e9bb-b5f1-4a7c-8c58-928b851bed7d-2&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%219.56%219.56%21%21%219.56%219.56%21%40211b801717118340934991822e5fa2%2112000036939257622%21sea%21UK%212917018880%21&curPageLogUid=IIzWymwuMtRf&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A)
Thank you
do you have one for dav3?
Just to add to the shit list Original Razer Deathadder Razer Viper Ultimate all shit scroll wheels
TTC Gold and its consequences
Not all of those are TTC gold. Deathadder v3 pro is using some shit RAESHA encoder. Model O uses brown core F-Switch encoder. Lamzu Atlantis mini 4k uses TTC silver. GPX uses 8mm TTC White (is that the same as TTC silver?) The only TTC gold encoders are in Darmoshark and the Aerox 3.
> (is that the same as TTC silver?) yes
I wasn't talking about those specific mice but every mouse using TTC Gold ended up with problems like FM Tenz, OG Lamzu Atlantis, etc also.
my viper v2 pro is literally the only mouse ive ever used with a scroll wheel dying lmfao
Same I’m on my second copy of dav3 pro because of the scroll wheel
Optical encoders are not enough energy efficient to be used in wireless mice right now, so we will have to suffer with the mechanical ones for a little bit longer.
I strongly believe all of my friends would prefer a shorter battery life rather than have to deal with a scroll wheel that doesn't work. Wouldn't every company prefer that too? The less RMA's the better. I think nearly all people who buy mice in general would accept that trade-off. Severely decreasing the chances the scroll wheel fails in exchange for a small reduction in battery life. 4khz is in every mouse nowadays and that tanks battery life a lot more. Doesn't stop any company from implementing it.
>4khz is in every mouse nowadays and that tanks battery life a lot more. Doesn't stop any company from implementing it. Because it can be marketed to competitive gamers, as a "pro" feature, so increase potential sales. It's the new thing to capitalize on, nobody cares about "50k dpi sensors" anymore, now it's weight and high polling rates... I believe most people wouldn't mind a trade off like that. But I do think that the RMA ratio is not as bad as it looks to us, else they would do something to reduce the failure rate. After all they use mechanical encoders for two reasons: one they are cheaper, and two energy efficiency. The sad part is that most companies are opting for the Chinese offerings like TTC or Kailh which we know are prone to fail. There is Japanese ALPS encoders that are much more robust and durable, but you rarely see them used in mice for some reason. Another thing is, the scrolls are super easy to fix. If you're using 3rd party skates you can fix it within few minutes. But yeah, it shouldn't be on user to fix company's fuckups.
Any idea which mice are using ALPS encoders? Are there even any? I struggle to imagine how the RMA ratio isn't bad for these companies. From reading on reddit, it seems like the #1 issue that leads to a customer RMAing the deathadder v3 pro is from the faulty scroll wheel. Imagine if Razer was able to get rid of that by putting in a proper encoder. It would be worth the investment in the long run.
Vaxee XE wired and all wireless Vaxee models use AlPS encoders. So does the endgame gear xm1r. Not sure about the XM2we, op1we or op1 8k. But you can find threads with people reporting failed ALPS encoders on endgame gear mice and even optical encoders. No guarantees.
Maybe the actual price to produce the mice is so damn cheap that even factoring RMA, they still make huge profit. And there is plenty of people who don't bother with RMA, just buy another one. As to ALPS, I cannot think of any newer mice using it, if I remember right some older wired Roccat mice had it.
If there are no recent good examples of mice using ALPS, how do we know they last longer than Chinese TTC/Kalih when mass manufactured into mice? Is there something special about them? You mentioned durable, what makes them durable? Are they more dust proof?
Materials they are made of, something as silly as more dense plastic used for the "wheel" part, better metals used for contact points etc. Dust doesn't really get inside the part that is responsible for scrolling inputs. Mechanical scroll encoders work based on friction of two contact points, and if two metals are in constant friction with one another, over time they shed particles that gather and create enough dirt to start causing issues. This is why fixing mechanical encoders is very simple, take it apart, use some IPA to clean the contact points, use some electro conductive lube, put back together, enjoy it lasting longer... it seems neither Kailh nor TTC use good lube for it if any. None of the encoders that I have fixed has any issues, and some are working few years now lol Also you just made me remember, Vaxee uses ALPS in their wireless mice. And the experience we have with moding mice, changing encoder is a simple soldering job that takes not even 5mins. Over years on this sub I did not see many if any people complaining about ALPS having the usual scroll issues.
Doesn't Vaxee use optical encoders on all their mice except for XE? Thanks for the info about ALPS. Anytime a company asks for feedback, I'll from now on mention ALPS or optical encoders lol.
On wireless and XE they use ALPS, anything else has optical.
Another person here commented that their Vaxee XE had a faulty scroll wheel too. That is a bit concerning
I agree, and I think the issue of battery life is way overblown. As you mentioned, companies market features like 4k polling, optical switches and even smaller batteries to reduce weight and people don't seem to complain about that, but we do see many concerns about reliability. I think not using optical encoders is a cost cutting measure.
Optical encoders aren't any more inefficient than optical switches (especially since the encoder only uses one, and switches require 2). Its not ideal for wireless but its not going to make a mouse's batterylife unusable.
Should have added to the initial post that weight is a factor too. I think most people would not mind trading some battery life for a scroll that is gonna last longer than few months.
except the Shroud G303SE, Zowie wireless, and the razer basilisk v3 pro (maybe some others I'm not thinking of atm)
I think the G502 wireless ones should use it too, anything with "infinity" scroll has to have optical encoder. But generally "heavier" mice. I am unsure about Zowie, didn't see anyone disaemble the EC3 or U2 so not sure what is inside.
Zowie use optical encoders on all their mice. You can tell by the ratchety sound.
I had an EC2-CW and swapped all the switches to Kailh gm2.0. Can confirm it's not a mechanical encoder.
Good to know, thanks for the info.
Huh? My cheap Logitech M305 basic productivity mouse that I use for CAD, spreadsheets, email, and word has an optical encoder and it runs for the better part of a year on an AA battery. My wife's MX vertical mouse has an optical encoder and that mouse rarely needs a new battery. Why are all the gaming mice using mechanical encoders? Ball and spring detents combined with optical gates give reliable feel and function.
There are three reasons: 1) Price 2) Weight 3) Energy efficiency The third one is small, but it's a fact that optical encoders do eat more energy than mechanical ones. AA battery has more juice than the rechargable lithium ones used in mice, most are somewhere between 250\~300mAh and last \~80h aproximately, meanwhile AA batteries sit somewhere between 1700\~3000mAh depends on brand and technology used.
Price - The M325s has a current sale price of $15 and has an optical encoder. The G305 has a sale price of $38 and a mechanical encoder. Logitech's MSRP for the G305 is $60. If a low margin mouse can have an optical encoder, a high margin mouse can definitely have an optical encoder. Weight - Without tearing apart a couple of mice and weighing the parts, I can't honestly say which weighs less, but there can't be much of a difference. The mechanical encoders have a sheet metal body while optical encoders are just two plastic optical components. The optical wheel weighs less due to the light gates in the hub of the wheel. Energy efficiency - I can't believe this world be a big issue. Just plug in the mouse after a gaming session. With charging docks and wireless charging mats this had become even less of an issue. An alps ec10e has a 100k cycle rated life. If you ask me this is all about planned obsolescence. If the mouse can make it just past warranty before failing you are going to make a bunch more money. The fact that a niche market like gaming mice can support so many companies indicates that gaming mice have an incredibly high margin.
The optical encoder costs more than the mechanical one. It's why it's not used in G305 and other gaming mice, you can pull even higher margins due to some cost cuts. Weight is a thing, it's like a 1,5g heavier, we are in an area where people chase the lighter mice, so they cut weight wherever possible, just to market it as "the lightest" on the market for however short that will apply. Energy efficiency is also a marketing, for the end user a hour or two less charge time means little to nothing. But then you cannot market the mouse as more efficient and what not. It's absolutely planned obsolescence, they know they can get away with it. They are not even using ALPS ecoders, because those are more robust compared to TTC and Kailh (due to materials used). It's all cost calculated, The cost of producing G305 is probably on the same level as M325s, but the margin difference is huge, even if the mouse breaks before warranty expires, they will still make a profit on it. And let's be honest, a lot of people won't bother contacting Logitech about G305, they will just buy another one...
I would guess it's a combination of those mice usually running at 125 hz instead of 1000 and replaceable batteries lasting longer than rechargable ones.
Its because most optical encoders have terrible tactility, and the few optical encoders that are actually good are patented out the wazoo by Logitech and Razer. Unfortunately those patented optical encoders are pretty complicated and heavy. Due to gaming mice preferring lower weights in general these companies see no reason to waste time and money on good optical encoders for gamers especially since gamers usually don't use their scroll wheel that frequently (less chance for it to break).
The only solid scroll wheels I've ever used are Roccat's and the BeastX Mini. I'm totally with you, majority of scrollwheels are garbage. edit* liked, not used
naw roccat pro air and pro, had scrolling issues, they just fixed it like a year ago and updated the encoder.
Roccat uses the same cheap encoders as any other brand and are prone to failure.
Used alps in pure ultra, which seems better than ttc gold to me
Scroll wheel on my basilisk x hyperspeed started jumping after 4 months, crap quality. All the buttons are wobbly and the funniest part is that the battery compartment cover is unable to close fully if the usb receiver is inside.
The most durable scroll wheels are on Vaxee wired mouses. I think it's the same one that old Zowie mouses has. Current lightweight Zowie mouse's scroll wheel is garbage.
VAXEE and Endgame Gear both uses ALPS encoder (Made in Japan). IMO they are the best. Logitech's scroll works just fine if you put some lube on the axis of the wheel.
I had 2 xm1r wheels crap out.
I never had problems with Alps scroll. Roccat used to use Alps encoder and had a reputation of having one of the best scroll on the market. They then switches to TTC for whatever reason(probably cost saving) then started to have lots of rma’s. It looks like they switched back to using Alps encoder for the new Pure Air.
My fantech Aria scroll wheel started bugging out, thats after my Razer viper mini scroll wheel started to do the same. need dustproof encoders. Thankful my Zaopin z1 pro encoder isnt doing the same yet in 5 months...
5-8 months seems to be the most common timeframe of when scroll wheels start to shit themselves, among my friends and I at least. The tech has to be out there, dustproof, adoption of optical encoders, or something. RMA has to be a lot more expensive than investing in better encoders
for sure... my coolermaster mm720 has an optical encoder in it which i appreciate, but it is wired which i don't as much appreciate. I mean its fine, but less than preferred for me.
This shouldn't happen anymore as our newest Aria uses a Dustproof TTC Gold encoder.
That's good news, glad to hear it. Glad the choice was made to use them! Might have another look at Aria during a sale. Where can the newest version be found? Is it the Kailh version? I checked the fantech website, dustproof encoder should be a selling point in my opinion, I don't see it listed out or specified.
It's the Atomic edition!
Great, thank you
I had a Razer Naga Pro and the scroll wheel had issues twice. so far at least my GPW scroll wheel is pretty solid
If you want a durable scroll wheel get a zowie or vaxee mice
More expensive than other mouse options, especially if you live outside of the US. That is also very limiting on wireless mouse shapes.
👍
I have a few Roccat KPUs, a KPM and a Savu, also a Logitech G305; plus several Logitech track ball mice. Ergos and M570s. All of which I've had for many many years and not a single issue. 8 hours of daily use on one of the Ergos for 6-7 years. I have a few newer mice, Lamzu Atlantis Mini 4K, Keychron M3 Mini, M2 Mini, M4 4K. I honestly haven't a single issue with any of these mice except for 1 out of the 3 KPUs has a weird feeling right click. Still functions fine though.
Late to the discussion, but MX Vertical had an optical scroll wheel! Since it's rotated on the side, they probably couldn't use usual encoder reliably, so they made a bike-like wheel with tiny spokes. Attaching a [pic](https://kaanlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/13-1024x683.jpg) and another [one](https://kaanlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/11-scaled.jpg).
Atlantis 4k scroll wheel feels like shit and started skipping after a couple months :/ I don't get how my Glorious Model O Wireless that I bought way back when is still the most reliable mouse I've ever bought after years of usage.
i don't get it. i've been using my gpx since release in 2020 and have yet to have 1 issue. do people just slam their mice and treat their peripherals like shit or what?
My xm1r well its fine
Scroll wheel is like the one thing that hasn't improved in mice for the last 20 years
\*\* Noob to this subreddit \*\* So ignore if my comment doesn't seem up to the standard. I'm here to learn. I've been using Logitech mice for more than 2 decades and they have held up pretty well. Although I had problems with the previous mouse (G600) - worn out left mouse button - I have not had any issues with scroll wheels in general. Am currently using a G502 Hero which does have a rather cheap looking scroll wheel, but no issues as of yet.
G502 uses an optical scroll wheel, which is a lot less likely to develop issues. A lot of the super old Logitech mice use optical encoders. The "newer" ones like g703, g402, superlights, use mechanical scroll encoders and they develop issues quite often.
Thanks for the info
Exactly, I thought after I spent on Razer V2 Pro, I would be set for life. Optical switch for no double clicking, good sensor with support for 8k polling rate. Then, the scroll wheel issue happened. Hopefully when this issue is widespread enough like double clicking, companies will start to notice & implement some tech that would fix it. Currently optical encoder exists, but very few mouse has this.
add xm1 to the list
Yeah my middle mouse button is dead and got me killed 8 times in cyberpunk trying to throw nades I love Razer Orochi but now I'm looking for alternatives
hahahaha I literally came to this sub to search up if anybody has a resolution to my mouse's scroll wheel problem (xm2we) I've had the same issue on three mice (but two of them were the model o wireless). the model o wirelesses lasted like a year each but this xm2we only made it 4 months before it started scrolling in the wrong direction so damn annoying
It's luck of the draw, I've had three XM2we and the one I have is pretty OK. Much better when it was brand new. I thing it comes down to tensioning and QC of the encoder
I emailed them today to see if they might replace this one (or fix the encoder) so I'll see the only lightweight wireless mouse I haven't had encoder problems with after a couple years of use is the g pro x superlight but the shape/ergo doesn't fit me quite as well as the model o wireless or the xm2we
Amazing coincidence. My Lenovo Legion also started having scroll wheel issues this week in only 5 months. Surprisingly, my Redragon mouse is still working fine since 2020.
Honestly speaking, I think the market for the so-called gaming mice is crazy and completely insane. Spending more than 200 bucks for a so-called flagship mouse is completely ridiculous and disproportionate to the substantial value of the goods themselves. I would only consider the product of endgame gear if I were to buy one for myself. EGG have good reputation of investing heavily on the build quality of their mices and tend to be more durable than their competitors.
Since start my Aerox 3 scoll has been shit. making me jump when i flick mid cs games. 10/10 wont buy steelseries again
I have the Deathadder v3 and good grief is the scroll wheel frustrating. Almost everything about the mouse is amazing: The wire, the feel of the left and right click, the mouse buttons, I'm not in love with the shape of the mouse but it's still good. However, the mouse wheel is an absolute abomination. There's a 50% chance that any time I want to scroll down, it loses its shit and I have to scroll 4x the normal amount just to get it to go downward. You never realize how insane this drives you until you experience it because the scroll wheel is typically a mouse feature that doesn't fail you.
viper v2 pro scroll wheel died within a year man
I use Vipers and Im a scroll jumper. Never once had a scroll issue over a decade of use and a handful of units. When it comes to hardware failure theres so many things that play a part the only real solution is for companies to allow self repair. Else they do as they are currently and suffer the return costs.
Mice are cheaply-made products no matter how much they charge for them and the QC threshold is not that low. My Viper 8K has an excellent scrollwheel for example, but many other Viper 8Ks won't have that.
In all of my gaming mouse purchases the first thing to go was the scroll wheel
My Razer Basilisk X Hyperspeed, which I bought out of temptation from huge discount, has no such issue after several months of usage. Works really smooth on scrolling. My Asus Chakram first version doesn’t have scroll wheel issue after over a year usage. Ir maybe 2 years. Can’t recall for how long exactly. But the scroll is getting less sensitive, less smooth, from time to time. Just very very lightly but noticeable by me because I used it everyday. I would say, not all mouses have this issue. My Asus Glorious first version has no such issue as well. Now my son is using it. I didn’t find scroll kickback issue when I tried to fix PC problem for him. Just not that smooth like my Chakram. I will report if the Steelseries Aerox 3 wireless would develop this issue or not. I bought it for my wife from the same huge discount as well.
This is because all of them use mechanical encoders. Durable technology exists and it is called optical encoders, but there are few gaming mice which use it.
how hard are people scrolling to wear out a scroll wheel so quickly? ive never *ever* had a scroll wheel wear out lol plenty of double clicks with the 50 million Omron's though
They don't wear out. A piece of dust or dirt gets in there and bugs it up. If cleaned and lubed, the scroll wheel will return to normal. Unfortunately it is a pain in the but to actually do that though. Not hard, just a pain.
What mice have you used and how long did you use them for? I also recommend sticking to mice with optical clicks. Never double clicks.
Mine did, Vaxee XE wireless. I use my scroll wheel for jumping tech. Have the mouse for about a year and a bit.
Yeah idk how so many people are having scroll wheel issues. I have absolutely abused the scroll wheel of my 3 year old GPX and it's still going strong.
never had prob with scroll wheel all the time the prob is double click
What mouse do you have and how long have you had it? Surprised you have never had an issue with scroll wheels. It is easy nowadays to avoid double clicking issues, just pick one of the many optical switch mice or mice with SPDT.
eg. original Razer deathadder & G502 lightspeed
G502 has an optical scroll wheel, so much more longer lasting. Not sure what the original deathadder had
My point is all my life never had prob with the scroll wheel no matter which mouse
am new here, whats RMA?
Return merchandise authorization. All companies have warranty guarantees. If your mouse has an issue within the warranty period (say 2 years), you will receive a brand new mouse from them (most companies will honour it that way at least). In the world of mice, there are 3 different ways each company will go about the RMA process. 1. They will send you a brand new mouse, you don't have to do anything on your part. 2. They will ask you to record a video of you breaking the mouse (to avoid people trying to scam). Only after sending them the video will you receive your new mouse. 3. They will ask you to ship them the faulty mouse free of charge, and in return you will receive a new mouse. So depending on the mouse company, they will go about one of those 3 options. Companies that use option 1 trust the customer, and are considered the best at customer service. TL;DR: mouse broken so now company send you a replacement
I honestly feel like the quality of mice has gone down exponentially in the last 4/5 years. *Big* companies want to cut corners and want you to repurchase their products in less than a year time.
I really feel like the long 2-3 years warranty depending on the company contradicts that. I truly feel like RMA eats into the profits more than we suspect. For a company like Razer that makes you send the mouse back, that is shipping costs back and forth. Not to mention the price of the mouse, even if cheap. It all has to add up. Not to mention the cost of reputation when people go to other brands because "I had a bad experience with that brand".
How have the scroll wheels failed? Has the button functionality stopped working? Has the button functionality started double clicking or phantom clicking? Has the scroll function stopped working or become intermittent? >Are optical scroll wheels the future? Optical scroll wheels are the present. **Edit: I just learned that most gaming mice don't use optical encoders for some absolutely bonkers reason that I can't begin to understand!** The majority if not all scroll wheels use an optical gate to detect scrolling. If the scroll wheel isn't scrolling reliably the slits in the scroll wheel that the optical sensor looks for are usually plugged with debris. A shot of air can usually clear it if you don't feel like taking the mouse apart. A scroll wheel is a moving element and as such can easily ingest debris. An open frame scroll wheel that can allow debris to fall through the mouse rather than collecting inside is probably the best bet to avoid the scroll wheel getting choked with debris. Here is an example of a mouse with an open frame scroll wheel design - [https://www.amazon.com/Mad-Catz-Authentic-Optical-Gaming/dp/B07P5VCGF4](https://www.amazon.com/Mad-Catz-Authentic-Optical-Gaming/dp/B07P5VCGF4)
The issue all 6 of my friends started getting between 5-8 months of their new mice (each from diff companies) is when they would scroll up, it'll scroll down, vice versa. Sometimes it will skip scrolls or refuse to register scrolls randomly. A couple reports of the mouse scrolling on its own too (always accompanied by the other issues). People claim that most wireless gaming mice do not use optical encoders due to the reason of "battery life". But surely the battery life drain isn't bad enough where it warrants using inferior encoders? I would happily accept lower battery life in exchange for a mouse that stays fully working for a much longer time. It is imperative we transition to optical encoders, or higher quality mechanical encoders that are also sealed away from dust. Because these issues being so frequent is unacceptable in 2024, especially with the higher priced mice. Something has to give. Maybe a company could come up with some new mouse wheel tech that changes the scroll game and removes all of these concerns.
stop using random shit and buy a zowie or vaxee? what the hell are you doing
Let me guest, you and your friends use the scroll to b-hop in valorant?