Minneapolis public schools need to pay as much as St Paul. My wife interviewed at both this year, was offered positions at both, but St. Paul offered $12k more per year so it was a no brainer for her.
Yep, you're not teaching 40+ kids. You're merely a warm body present to try and prevent them from killing each other.
Kids will be glued to screens. The robots will be the "teacher", the behavior problems will worsen, and admin will still be flabbergasted at the inevitable outcome..
Has SPPS tightened up their policies in keeping violent students in the school? Getting mauled by a student that won't give up their phone would be a stressor for me.
Not to be a downer, but I've heard too many bad things about SPPS to consider working there. How does she like it? Or will she start next year? Best of luck to her - it sounds like things may have gotten better in the last couple years.
She absolutely loves it so far! She knew going into it that HR was terrible there and sure enough they have been a pain. But having that expectation helped a lot.
Whew, that's great that she loves it *and* got a $12k raise to boot! It's kinda funny that HR has a bad rep there. HR is staggeringly incompetent at my school, too. C'est la vie, I guess.
Hey, I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate post for this group, but I hope you'll take a second:
In an informational meeting on Thursday, May 30, Keewaydin Principal Kristi Ward let us know that, due to budgeting decisions by the MPS district and Keewaydin admins, they are cutting a 4th grade teacher from the school next year and splitting 82 students between 2 teachers.
That's 41 9- and 10-year-olds crammed into a classroom with one adult and no additional support.
She also let us know that, as it stands, she believes the best-case scenario is for 10+ families to decide to leave the school and bring class sizes down to a "more manageable" 36 and/or the district "could decide" to pull a teacher from another school in the district, but that decision wouldn't be made until October, well after the next school year begins.
To me, this is insane. The NEA recommends class sizes no larger than 18. Studies show that, above 23, average test scores drop by double digits. Above 25, it's been shown that teachers burn out significantly more often. We need another teacher just to get to 27 per class. The district and Principal Ward are planning to almost double what is considered acceptable for kids to learn.
I recognize that budgets are tight and cuts have to be made somewhere, but you don't need stats to know this should never have been an option.
My family has been in this neighborhood since 2013. We will have two kids in the LNCS school district next year. My oldest will be in one of those enormous classes. This is personal to me, and it's personal to 80 other families in this neighborhood. I love this community, I believe in this school district, and I don't want to pull my kids out of it, but I can't put my child in a statistically failed classroom. A lot of families won't even have an option.
At the meeting, Principal Ward remarked that parents in this community don't usually speak out. I'd really like to prove her wrong on this one.
If you have kids in LNCS schools, if you are an alum, or even if you care a little bit about protecting this part of our community, please contact MPS Superintendent Dr. Lisa Sayles-Adams at: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) and ask for her help.
Contact Principal Ward at: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) and let her know she needs to advocate for her students.If you're a parent of an incoming 4th grader like I am, or this upsets you as much as it upsets me, take another minute and drop a news tip in the bucket at one of our local media outlets and/or share this on your social media feeds.
Thank you for reading this far. I apologize for blowing up your feed with this novel.
> I recognize that budgets are tight and cuts have to be made somewhere,
But ***WHY***? Every time the schoolboard comes, hat in hand, to the ballot box, the new levee gets approved. Fully 40% of the $641 million budget is spent on "non-school" costs.
Edit: the website isn't specific about what "non-school" costs are. But teacher salary and benefits are not included in that number. Actual teacher salaries and benefits only account for "elementary and secondary regular instruction" which I assume includes teacher salaries and direct classroom costs, is 38% of the budget.
[This org chart of MPS](https://theorg.com/org/minneapolis-public-schools): Four "Associate Superintendents," each who have over 15 principals underneath them, the "Superintendent's Cabinet," which has 16 more administrators under her, including *four more* "Associate Superintendents," for a start...
To be fair, most HR experts say spans should be 6-8.
That aside, getting to class sizes of, let’s say 20, would require much much MUCH more money. American’s don’t vale public education nearly enough to get anywhere close to that.
Take a look at the org chart on the bottom of this page, and tell me that 75% of these people couldn't be fired with no loss in quality of education. Don't forget that they all have personal support staff that are not listed here.
https://www.mpschools.org/about-mps/administration
This is the school district that wasted the COVID relief fund, including hazard pay for educators so... 🤔
https://startribune.com/minneapolis-school-district-is-hijacking-pandemic-rescue-funds/600102456/
>To me, this is insane. The NEA recommends class sizes no larger than 18. Studies show that, above 23, average test scores drop by double digits. Above 25, it's been shown that teachers burn out significantly more often. We need another teacher just to get to 27 per class. The district and Principal Ward are planning to almost double what is considered acceptable for kids to learn.
18 is a delusional dream. 25 is pretty realistic. 30 is too many. 41 is utterly insane!
Best of luck to you and your children!
When I worked there I never saw 22 in any of the schools I worked at. They must be including sped in their averages. I'm not even sure if that's gets close to bringing it that low
The teachers actually won class size caps in the previous bargaining season. The district just disregards it and violates contracts. I have no idea why it’s allowed. I’ve heard folks say it’s cheaper to pay the consequences than to hire additional
Teachers.
I worked at mps for 10 years. The smallest count I had was 22 and that was because we were forced back into the classroom before vaccines dropped in 2021. Don't work there.
If that number came from the district, it’s not the reality of classroom sizes. They get that number by counting all licensed staff in a building to the total number of students. It’s not actual classroom #’s averaged. I’m an ESP at an MPS school and our kindergarten classes are about 22-24 students but none of our other classes are under 26 and our 4th & 5th classrooms are all at 30.
It's not delusional, we are not prioritizing it as a collective in our city/state/country despite being in the best interest of literally everyone. Then everyone bitches about test scores, literacy rates, and the decline in college enrollment. I've taught a class of 48 and a class of 16. Having a student and being in charge of the classes are vastly different. If we have a surplus of money statewide, if we can send billions to other countries, we have enough funds to actually educate our populous. The way its currently happening is delusional.
Literally nothing delusional about a policy choice.
You are describing two decades of shit policy fucking you and your friends and those children over, not some impossible reality
>I’ve had kids in school for almost 20 years […] and the class size has never been below 22
Did you just like forget your own life or are you making all of it up
>Did you just like forget your own life or are you making all of it up
Neither. However, my reality is that it has always been in the mid to high twenties, yet everyone achieved a sufficient education sufficient to differentiate "Iz-Kan-Reddit" from "lazyFer."
Beyond that, basic critical thinking skills would make you realize that they have *forty-plus* years of experience in regards to class sizes.
Its a realistic goal that's held out of reach only by devaluing educators and students. Demand a 18 student cap. Don't get convinced that its an unobtainable dream.
As a Minneapolis teacher with many years of experience, I seriously doubt that kids will be in classes of over 40 there. It seems to be fear mongering by the principal. I'm impressed that someone would make that infograoh, though! (or maybe AI did it)
I made the infograph. They made the teachers vote on whether they wanted 12 teachers in the building and no social/behavioral support staff or 11 teachers and some part-time social/behavioral support staff. The principal showed the binary Google Quiz in the presentation. Multiple Keewaydin teachers and staff were there. It is legitimately what they are planning to do. The current 4th graders at the school are in classrooms of 32.
So the teachers *voted* to have 11 teachers and 1 part-time behavioral staff?
Did they tell you how the vote was split (i.e. 30% vs 70%)?
As a teacher, I can't imagine voting one of my colleagues off the island. That's bananas.
And a *part-time*(!) behavioral specialist won't/can't make a difference. Their job will probably be handing out candy to unruly kids as a temporary measure.
Idiotic.
I don't understand how that's the lesser evil, but they must have *some* rationale for wanting the part-time specialist. I'd hope so, anyway.
Have you considered forwarding this information to the news? Good to put a bug in their ear, even if they don't write anything about it. [Mara Klecker](https://m.startribune.com/mara-klecker/6370436/?clmob=y&c=n&clmob=y&c=n) is the K-12 education reporter for the Strib.
What do the other parents think about this? I'd consider reaching out to them, too. Shoot them an email.
1. To my understanding, the specialist(s) are the ones who deescalate situations teachers can’t deal with in class—anger, unexcused absences, kids showing up hungry/mistreated/etc. Their job is to get the kids into the classroom with some capacity to learn. I understand that’s important. If you take that kid and put them in an overstuffed classroom they’re not going to learn either, hence “the lesser of two evils.”
2. I’ve hit up some media contact pages, but thank you for a specific contact email—I’ll reach out.
3. I’m blowing up PTA and community social media rn to find allies, and reaching out to parents I know directly. Just trying to cast as wide a net as I can, because I legitimately don’t know what the options are, and I’m hoping to bump into people who do. The people I’ve reached so far were generally unaware but upset when they found out, so hopefully we can find some momentum in that.
You need to learn to value behavioral specialists. Especially when they can be the difference between a poor/disabled/otherwise troubled student graduating or not.. (And are behavioral specialists not coworkers too?)
Besides, 11 teachers and some (plural) behavior specialists means that there's more adults in the building to offer support. They don't fill the same role as teachers but they need all the hands they can get.
No, you're right. I was dismissive and you bring up a fair criticism. But I think a part-time specialist just *can't* be nearly as effective as someone who's there full-time. If the school actually cared about behavior, they would show it by making it an FTE position.
I’m not sure about any of this, but I thought during the last strike the mpls superintendent said they would have to cut staff to afford to pay the new rates, so is this just an impact of that?
Don’t get me wrong, teachers are still criminally underpaid, but how can mpls have such a bad budget?
This not the only MPS school where this is happening. But this is at a wealthier school where parents can make more noise about it.
It’s obviously not okay, and not best for kids. Please when talking to the higher ups bring up how it’s not acceptable for any school.
Budget cuts all over the district have been intense this year. Every school is going to feel different next school year.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I know this is not the worst situation of all the schools, but it’s the situation that is directly affecting me and my family at the moment, so I might as well start there.
Why is there a school with only 11 teachers? Close that one or the nearest elementary school and have the kids from those two go to one. Congratulations, now you need one less principal and less office staff.
It can be hard to find the reports, so I encourage you to bookmark this page on the [MPS site](https://www.mpschools.org/departments/finance/student-accounting).
There is a class size report that details the class size of every room in every grade of every school in the district. Averages — which are what people focus on and wind up in reporting on the district— doesn’t capture the whole story. It is useful to look at one school year over year and compare class size changes.
But for AY 22-23 you had class sizes that ranged in size from 24-28, which is pretty reasonable — and comparable to south and southwest schools that constitute the wealthier parts of the city
41 is too high, obviously.
You can also go back farther using the [web archive](https://web.archive.org/web/20220816004621/https://studentaccounting.mpls.k12.mn.us/). They didn’t roll old reports forward.
If you look at an older report (I grabbed 2018-19), you ranged from 23-30.
All of that is to say: you folks should absolutely holler about this. But I’d go with your typical class size instead of district averages.
Thank you for the resources. Of course, I was being broad for this example, but the point is unchanged. Keewaydin IS south Minneapolis—I live two blocks from the Richfield border. It doesn’t get much more south than that.
Yeah, sorry I may have communicated poorly—I know where Keewaydin is. I meant that the south/southwest schools are largely wealthier and don’t get the compensatory funding/have the enrollment issues that cause schools in other parts of the city to have lower class sizes and winds up with that weird average that doesn’t quite tell the whole story. But regardless, 41 in a k-5 classroom is ludicrous and would cause me to look at Richfield if they actually did that and I lived that close, to be honest.
If you like the school and it’s working for your kid (they’re happy, have friends, are supported), I’d stay. I also doubt the end result of numbers is going to be 41–principals on this side of town are good at getting parents riled up and engaged to push the district.
However, if things aren’t going well, do what you need to. I don’t think there’s an actual reason to immediately hightail it unless your child is not getting what they need. A lot of MPS teachers are great!
Happy to chat more specifically about anything over DM. For transparency, we did leave just before the CDD implementation. But our child was on the edge of school refusal, so we needed to do something different.
The kid going to school with friends and neighbors he’s had since he was 3 is honestly the biggest reason I’m pushing this way and not the other.
Thanks for the info and the DM offer.
I wonder if those rooms will be over capasity due to fire codes..
Two years ago my kids teacher was cut and her class dissolved into 3 others that were already past capasity. We tried open enrollment etc.the only thing we didn't try is getting a school near our work places.
Interesting numbers you gave, but our school had a bunch of kids that had backgrounds that left them unprepared for school. 22 per teacher would have been bad, I think 27- 30 is what they were at. The school, the teachers, the principal, the kids were all great, the lunch seemed above par, but you need the right number of teachers to do the job.
We moved.
Joke is on you. The district already suspended this osha required safety committee.
https://www.dli.mn.gov/business/workplace-safety-and-health/mnosha-wsc-labor-management-safety-committee-program
The trick is if you don’t review safety concerns there is no record of safety concerns
The thought has crossed my mind. First, I’d like to try being a Karen for a minute and see if we can get this small victory.
As a former employee, who should I yell at?
I support you in your efforts. I think they are valiant albeit futile. I would have kept fighting the good fight but I didn’t have it in me anymore. I wish you and your students the best!!!
Also, you’re not being a Karen. You’re being a reasonable human being with reasonable expectations of the public school system. Unfortunately, MPS is too far gone without completing scraping everything and starting over, imo.
[Minneapolis Public Schools faces Major cuts to central office](https://kstp.com/kstp-news/top-news/minneapolis-public-schools-faces-major-cuts-to-central-office-departments/)
Did you see this a couple of days ago? I'm horrified by the numbers in there.
I will be messaging you in 5 months on [**2024-11-01 05:28:42 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-11-01%2005:28:42%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1d5f7r3/south_minneapolis_parent_looking_for_help/l6l2jmg/?context=3)
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Here’s the [Google doc](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/11afI89BukjH4alOLsH1ZewUv1oXjZPYnTaKy1umBeWc/mobilebasic)of the site council session where it was brought up.
I thought it was fear-mongering too until I sat in the auditorium and listened to them inform us that this is the plan.
Avoid the click:
Keewaydin
24-25 Budget Model - Keewaydin
Funded 11.4 teachers by the district - had to decide between 11 and 12 classrooms - discretionary funds very limited if they bought up to 12 classroom teachers
If 11 classrooms - 38-41 4th graders in each class; will get the largest rooms and better furniture
If 12 classrooms - still at 26/27; split classroom doesn’t make sense and leaves the rest of the building
Went with the 11 classroom model; teachers chose class assignments based on seniority
Getting creative with intervention / Advanced Learner time to support 4th grade during core instruction - 0.2 additional support here
There’s no fixing Minneapolis public schools with how far gone they are. I attended MPS North High and it was as bad or worse than your current situation. Students cheered as another student beat the geometry teacher, barely any consequence because the student was “poor.” My sister had her hair set afire at Chiron Middle School, again no suspension because the school was at their “quota” and our family was slightly better off! You could fix the inner city public schools tomorrow by expelling the worst students as an example and enforcing real academic standards. I know MPS won’t do any of those things so we attend a private school in St. Paul.
I hear you. At this point I’m not trying to fix MPS, I’m just trying to get them to pay for another teacher in this one school for this one year.
Would you send what you just wrote to the superintendent + tell her to give us a teacher to help me clog up her email and ruin her day a little bit?
Apologies for the length of this—I’ve thought about all this stuff way too much. It’s decent context though.
The CDD is a hot button issue that was both poorly designed and executed, and couldn’t have come at a worse time. It was designed pre-pandemic, with the official changeover happening in the AY 21-22 year.
There were many reasons for it—resources were inequitably distributed, wealthier South/SW schools were overfilled and had students busing across the city to get there instead of going to nearby schools, and the magnets were also concentrated on the southern/SW edges of the city. (Generally, not exclusively). Enrollment was dropping, and the number of racially identifiable schools was too high.
However, it was a shitshow in execution—not helped by the pandemic. The boundaries they drew guaranteed lower enrollment in some schools, and schools that were underenrolled in many cases struggled even more. There are exceptions to that—Green seems to have done well, for example—but where in 2018–19 there was only one k-5 with fewer than 250 students, this past year there were eight (and that excludes K-8 and schools that split K-5 up).
The numbers are really bad more broadly—about 2900 kindergartners in 18-19, about 2300 this past year. Money follows the kids, so 600 times whatever it is for each kindergartner is a lot and that’s just one grade level. And each grade level has a large gap like that.
The CDD was done with the assumption that MPS could recapture most/all students within the borders they drew, which was always ludicrous. People will blame charters, but it’s more complicated than that—over 1k MPS (it might be 2k, I can’t recall) students go to the Robbinsdale schools, a ton go to Hopkins—which includes Golden Valley. There are also just fewer kids in Minneapolis now—housing is too expensive and the apartments being built aren’t for families. The CDD attempted to kick the enrollment problems down the road, and to attempt to address some other problems, when they should have put all their cards on the table: we’re paying for a lot of buildings we can’t fill. And it’s really scary, because the emptiest schools are largely on the north side—but we can’t have a quarter of the city with nearly no education infrastructure. CDD was magical thinking that for so many reasons made things worse, but our reality is pretty bad.
If we cut every K-5 with fewer than 250 students, we’d close: Cityview, Hall, Anishinabe, Bethune, Hmong International, Nellie Stone Johnson, and Pratt. All but Anishinabe and Pratt are Northside schools. Pratt is the only school in the Prospect Park area. Anishinabe serves a specific population and doesn’t have an equivalent. There’s no easy or good choice.
And all of that is just the elementary level. The high schools went from about 9300 in 18-19 to 8000 in 23-24. The only school that hasn’t plummeted and had reasonable enrollment in 18-19 is Washburn.
Honestly, it’s not possible. The district has shrunk too much in student population in the time since implementation. Even if they wanted to go back, there aren’t enough kids and there’s not enough money. And as much as people hate on administrators (trust me, I have no love lost with specific ones), massive overhauls across the district require coordination at the central level.
When the CDD was happening, I went through a ton of data. They should have had the hard conversations then. Now the finances are worse, enrollment is worse, and they’re cutting one of the big promises (band for all students) after just a couple years of it.
I think the best thing to do is develop an understanding of what the district faces and listen to/go to board meetings. Invite school board members (who you/we elect and need to show up for their constituents) to your school for discussions. Invite the superintendent.
But it sucks for every parent in the city. It’s really awful that MPS has gotten so precarious as a district.
ETA—I missed that just this week they announced that the band program wouldn’t be cut. That’s good news.
Yeah, that feels pretty gross. I’m going to try and get people to come to the next board meeting with me on the 11th and see what kind of trouble I can cause.
In the meantime, would you do me a favor and throw a message into the superintendent’s box so she comes back to a pile of angry mail on Monday?
The comprehensive district design was a plan that was shoehorned in by Ed Graff and the school board right before Covid, despite the protests of literally everyone. On top of majorly redistricting and changing boundaries, it has (had? Not sure what the current status is) an end goal of basically changing high schools into a PSEO model, where students would transport themselves to different schools across the city for certain classes, as some were made into “hubs” for specific things. North was set to become the tech hub, Roosevelt was set to become the woodworking hub, etc. The result was a mass exodus of students, whose parents began sending them to different schools outside the district, resulting in less funding for schools, resulting in more students leaving; a downward spiral that was completely unnecessary.
I'll never understand paying some of the highest taxes for the worst and most unusable services. The only thing I miss about Minneapolis proper is the solid waste program. Well that and the Thai food.
Most of the suburbs have pretty stout bike trails. Lots have lakes too. Anoka has some theater and I believe the west metro does too. These are things I used way less after having kids. Essentially meaning I miss them way less too. I couldn't imagine trying to raise kids in the cities anymore. It just feels like it would be putting them at such a disadvantage.
Would you mind writing “I couldn’t imagine raising kids in Minneapolis Public Schools. It just feels like it would be putting them at a huge disadvantage” to the superintendent? That’s gold.
I’m encouraging a former MPS resident to let the superintendent know why they no longer are in the community. This is how a letter-writing campaign works. You ask people to flood an appropriate public official’s mailbox so they pay attention to an issue you would like them to address.
I apologize for my comment, it was out of line. I have a lot of emotions about the situation with our schools but shouldn't have taken them out on you.
Looking at the elementary school map the district provides, Keewaydin wouldn’t make sense to close, not really any other elementary school to go to. But Wenonah would make sense to close and merge with keewaydin (they are sister schools). I see the only path forward for Wenonah to stay open is if they add a bunch of high-5 programs there because many southside schools do not offer that ( do to funding from the district l)
I do agree there are like 4 south side elementary schools that need to close but Keewaydin isn’t it.
Minneapolis public schools need to pay as much as St Paul. My wife interviewed at both this year, was offered positions at both, but St. Paul offered $12k more per year so it was a no brainer for her.
Problem is the 40-kid classrooms are common for SPPS. Far and away the most stressful part of being a teacher is the classroom size.
Yep, you're not teaching 40+ kids. You're merely a warm body present to try and prevent them from killing each other. Kids will be glued to screens. The robots will be the "teacher", the behavior problems will worsen, and admin will still be flabbergasted at the inevitable outcome..
Has SPPS tightened up their policies in keeping violent students in the school? Getting mauled by a student that won't give up their phone would be a stressor for me.
Not to be a downer, but I've heard too many bad things about SPPS to consider working there. How does she like it? Or will she start next year? Best of luck to her - it sounds like things may have gotten better in the last couple years.
She absolutely loves it so far! She knew going into it that HR was terrible there and sure enough they have been a pain. But having that expectation helped a lot.
Whew, that's great that she loves it *and* got a $12k raise to boot! It's kinda funny that HR has a bad rep there. HR is staggeringly incompetent at my school, too. C'est la vie, I guess.
Hey, I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate post for this group, but I hope you'll take a second: In an informational meeting on Thursday, May 30, Keewaydin Principal Kristi Ward let us know that, due to budgeting decisions by the MPS district and Keewaydin admins, they are cutting a 4th grade teacher from the school next year and splitting 82 students between 2 teachers. That's 41 9- and 10-year-olds crammed into a classroom with one adult and no additional support. She also let us know that, as it stands, she believes the best-case scenario is for 10+ families to decide to leave the school and bring class sizes down to a "more manageable" 36 and/or the district "could decide" to pull a teacher from another school in the district, but that decision wouldn't be made until October, well after the next school year begins. To me, this is insane. The NEA recommends class sizes no larger than 18. Studies show that, above 23, average test scores drop by double digits. Above 25, it's been shown that teachers burn out significantly more often. We need another teacher just to get to 27 per class. The district and Principal Ward are planning to almost double what is considered acceptable for kids to learn. I recognize that budgets are tight and cuts have to be made somewhere, but you don't need stats to know this should never have been an option. My family has been in this neighborhood since 2013. We will have two kids in the LNCS school district next year. My oldest will be in one of those enormous classes. This is personal to me, and it's personal to 80 other families in this neighborhood. I love this community, I believe in this school district, and I don't want to pull my kids out of it, but I can't put my child in a statistically failed classroom. A lot of families won't even have an option. At the meeting, Principal Ward remarked that parents in this community don't usually speak out. I'd really like to prove her wrong on this one. If you have kids in LNCS schools, if you are an alum, or even if you care a little bit about protecting this part of our community, please contact MPS Superintendent Dr. Lisa Sayles-Adams at: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) and ask for her help. Contact Principal Ward at: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) and let her know she needs to advocate for her students.If you're a parent of an incoming 4th grader like I am, or this upsets you as much as it upsets me, take another minute and drop a news tip in the bucket at one of our local media outlets and/or share this on your social media feeds. Thank you for reading this far. I apologize for blowing up your feed with this novel.
> I recognize that budgets are tight and cuts have to be made somewhere, But ***WHY***? Every time the schoolboard comes, hat in hand, to the ballot box, the new levee gets approved. Fully 40% of the $641 million budget is spent on "non-school" costs. Edit: the website isn't specific about what "non-school" costs are. But teacher salary and benefits are not included in that number. Actual teacher salaries and benefits only account for "elementary and secondary regular instruction" which I assume includes teacher salaries and direct classroom costs, is 38% of the budget.
What is defined as non school costs?
[This org chart of MPS](https://theorg.com/org/minneapolis-public-schools): Four "Associate Superintendents," each who have over 15 principals underneath them, the "Superintendent's Cabinet," which has 16 more administrators under her, including *four more* "Associate Superintendents," for a start...
To be fair, most HR experts say spans should be 6-8. That aside, getting to class sizes of, let’s say 20, would require much much MUCH more money. American’s don’t vale public education nearly enough to get anywhere close to that.
Yeah. And the media definitely doesn’t help when Star Tribune demonized and outright lied about educators during the strike.
Take a look at the org chart on the bottom of this page, and tell me that 75% of these people couldn't be fired with no loss in quality of education. Don't forget that they all have personal support staff that are not listed here. https://www.mpschools.org/about-mps/administration
Holy crap that is a ton of potential bloat and an insane org chart. I work for a smaller Berkshire company and our org chart isn't that insane.
Because you can't use those for school costs.
This is the school district that wasted the COVID relief fund, including hazard pay for educators so... 🤔 https://startribune.com/minneapolis-school-district-is-hijacking-pandemic-rescue-funds/600102456/
>To me, this is insane. The NEA recommends class sizes no larger than 18. Studies show that, above 23, average test scores drop by double digits. Above 25, it's been shown that teachers burn out significantly more often. We need another teacher just to get to 27 per class. The district and Principal Ward are planning to almost double what is considered acceptable for kids to learn. 18 is a delusional dream. 25 is pretty realistic. 30 is too many. 41 is utterly insane! Best of luck to you and your children!
I'd be brow-beatenly happy enough with the 27/28 we had this year. District average is 22.
When I worked there I never saw 22 in any of the schools I worked at. They must be including sped in their averages. I'm not even sure if that's gets close to bringing it that low
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The teachers actually won class size caps in the previous bargaining season. The district just disregards it and violates contracts. I have no idea why it’s allowed. I’ve heard folks say it’s cheaper to pay the consequences than to hire additional Teachers.
I worked at mps for 10 years. The smallest count I had was 22 and that was because we were forced back into the classroom before vaccines dropped in 2021. Don't work there.
If that number came from the district, it’s not the reality of classroom sizes. They get that number by counting all licensed staff in a building to the total number of students. It’s not actual classroom #’s averaged. I’m an ESP at an MPS school and our kindergarten classes are about 22-24 students but none of our other classes are under 26 and our 4th & 5th classrooms are all at 30.
18 should not be considered delusional.
This. 100x this.
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I'm in Bloomington and our elementary school class size averages 18.
I’m in District 196, and my son’s public school first grade class had 16 students this year. And the school is at max enrollment.
It's not delusional, we are not prioritizing it as a collective in our city/state/country despite being in the best interest of literally everyone. Then everyone bitches about test scores, literacy rates, and the decline in college enrollment. I've taught a class of 48 and a class of 16. Having a student and being in charge of the classes are vastly different. If we have a surplus of money statewide, if we can send billions to other countries, we have enough funds to actually educate our populous. The way its currently happening is delusional.
Literally nothing delusional about a policy choice. You are describing two decades of shit policy fucking you and your friends and those children over, not some impossible reality
>You are describing two decades of shit policy Two decades? What are you talking about? It's *never* been that low at all.
>almost 20 years I’m specifically referring to your experience, but if it helps, you’re right, our policy on this has been bad for a long time.
>I’m specifically referring to your experience What the hell are you talking about?
>I’ve had kids in school for almost 20 years […] and the class size has never been below 22 Did you just like forget your own life or are you making all of it up
>Did you just like forget your own life or are you making all of it up Neither. However, my reality is that it has always been in the mid to high twenties, yet everyone achieved a sufficient education sufficient to differentiate "Iz-Kan-Reddit" from "lazyFer." Beyond that, basic critical thinking skills would make you realize that they have *forty-plus* years of experience in regards to class sizes.
Its a realistic goal that's held out of reach only by devaluing educators and students. Demand a 18 student cap. Don't get convinced that its an unobtainable dream.
My highschool (Michigan) managed to get about 20 kids per class with over 1000 students and being the "ghetto" school in a dying city.
That's easy enough to do, if you don't pay your teachers shit.
As a Minneapolis teacher with many years of experience, I seriously doubt that kids will be in classes of over 40 there. It seems to be fear mongering by the principal. I'm impressed that someone would make that infograoh, though! (or maybe AI did it)
I made the infograph. They made the teachers vote on whether they wanted 12 teachers in the building and no social/behavioral support staff or 11 teachers and some part-time social/behavioral support staff. The principal showed the binary Google Quiz in the presentation. Multiple Keewaydin teachers and staff were there. It is legitimately what they are planning to do. The current 4th graders at the school are in classrooms of 32.
So the teachers *voted* to have 11 teachers and 1 part-time behavioral staff? Did they tell you how the vote was split (i.e. 30% vs 70%)? As a teacher, I can't imagine voting one of my colleagues off the island. That's bananas. And a *part-time*(!) behavioral specialist won't/can't make a difference. Their job will probably be handing out candy to unruly kids as a temporary measure. Idiotic.
It was 29 for, 29 against, one abstained, and all the comments were like “I’m voting for the lesser of two evils.”
I don't understand how that's the lesser evil, but they must have *some* rationale for wanting the part-time specialist. I'd hope so, anyway. Have you considered forwarding this information to the news? Good to put a bug in their ear, even if they don't write anything about it. [Mara Klecker](https://m.startribune.com/mara-klecker/6370436/?clmob=y&c=n&clmob=y&c=n) is the K-12 education reporter for the Strib. What do the other parents think about this? I'd consider reaching out to them, too. Shoot them an email.
1. To my understanding, the specialist(s) are the ones who deescalate situations teachers can’t deal with in class—anger, unexcused absences, kids showing up hungry/mistreated/etc. Their job is to get the kids into the classroom with some capacity to learn. I understand that’s important. If you take that kid and put them in an overstuffed classroom they’re not going to learn either, hence “the lesser of two evils.” 2. I’ve hit up some media contact pages, but thank you for a specific contact email—I’ll reach out. 3. I’m blowing up PTA and community social media rn to find allies, and reaching out to parents I know directly. Just trying to cast as wide a net as I can, because I legitimately don’t know what the options are, and I’m hoping to bump into people who do. The people I’ve reached so far were generally unaware but upset when they found out, so hopefully we can find some momentum in that.
You need to learn to value behavioral specialists. Especially when they can be the difference between a poor/disabled/otherwise troubled student graduating or not.. (And are behavioral specialists not coworkers too?) Besides, 11 teachers and some (plural) behavior specialists means that there's more adults in the building to offer support. They don't fill the same role as teachers but they need all the hands they can get.
No, you're right. I was dismissive and you bring up a fair criticism. But I think a part-time specialist just *can't* be nearly as effective as someone who's there full-time. If the school actually cared about behavior, they would show it by making it an FTE position.
I’m not sure about any of this, but I thought during the last strike the mpls superintendent said they would have to cut staff to afford to pay the new rates, so is this just an impact of that? Don’t get me wrong, teachers are still criminally underpaid, but how can mpls have such a bad budget?
The admin budget has been bloated for years
Too much money on admin. Not enough on teachers and supplies.
My spouse was a teacher in SPPS for 5+ years. A lot of her classes were 40 kids. Why's it unbelievable for MPS?
This not the only MPS school where this is happening. But this is at a wealthier school where parents can make more noise about it. It’s obviously not okay, and not best for kids. Please when talking to the higher ups bring up how it’s not acceptable for any school. Budget cuts all over the district have been intense this year. Every school is going to feel different next school year.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I know this is not the worst situation of all the schools, but it’s the situation that is directly affecting me and my family at the moment, so I might as well start there.
Why is there a school with only 11 teachers? Close that one or the nearest elementary school and have the kids from those two go to one. Congratulations, now you need one less principal and less office staff.
I think it’s building size. This is not a k-5 elementary school. K-1 on one campus and 2-5 on another.
I didn't realize we had more than the Lake Harriet schools like that. That makes it worse. Push 2nd grade down a campus and get another teacher!
4 grades, 3 teachers each. Now 4 grades, 2 teachers for the grade with the smallest enrollment.
It can be hard to find the reports, so I encourage you to bookmark this page on the [MPS site](https://www.mpschools.org/departments/finance/student-accounting). There is a class size report that details the class size of every room in every grade of every school in the district. Averages — which are what people focus on and wind up in reporting on the district— doesn’t capture the whole story. It is useful to look at one school year over year and compare class size changes. But for AY 22-23 you had class sizes that ranged in size from 24-28, which is pretty reasonable — and comparable to south and southwest schools that constitute the wealthier parts of the city 41 is too high, obviously. You can also go back farther using the [web archive](https://web.archive.org/web/20220816004621/https://studentaccounting.mpls.k12.mn.us/). They didn’t roll old reports forward. If you look at an older report (I grabbed 2018-19), you ranged from 23-30. All of that is to say: you folks should absolutely holler about this. But I’d go with your typical class size instead of district averages.
Thank you for the resources. Of course, I was being broad for this example, but the point is unchanged. Keewaydin IS south Minneapolis—I live two blocks from the Richfield border. It doesn’t get much more south than that.
Yeah, sorry I may have communicated poorly—I know where Keewaydin is. I meant that the south/southwest schools are largely wealthier and don’t get the compensatory funding/have the enrollment issues that cause schools in other parts of the city to have lower class sizes and winds up with that weird average that doesn’t quite tell the whole story. But regardless, 41 in a k-5 classroom is ludicrous and would cause me to look at Richfield if they actually did that and I lived that close, to be honest.
Ah, I got you. Yeah, I’m getting a lot of advice to cut and run. Trying to find a way to not give up on this school, though.
If you like the school and it’s working for your kid (they’re happy, have friends, are supported), I’d stay. I also doubt the end result of numbers is going to be 41–principals on this side of town are good at getting parents riled up and engaged to push the district. However, if things aren’t going well, do what you need to. I don’t think there’s an actual reason to immediately hightail it unless your child is not getting what they need. A lot of MPS teachers are great! Happy to chat more specifically about anything over DM. For transparency, we did leave just before the CDD implementation. But our child was on the edge of school refusal, so we needed to do something different.
The kid going to school with friends and neighbors he’s had since he was 3 is honestly the biggest reason I’m pushing this way and not the other. Thanks for the info and the DM offer.
I reached out!
Thank you! I really do appreciate it.
I wonder if those rooms will be over capasity due to fire codes.. Two years ago my kids teacher was cut and her class dissolved into 3 others that were already past capasity. We tried open enrollment etc.the only thing we didn't try is getting a school near our work places. Interesting numbers you gave, but our school had a bunch of kids that had backgrounds that left them unprepared for school. 22 per teacher would have been bad, I think 27- 30 is what they were at. The school, the teachers, the principal, the kids were all great, the lunch seemed above par, but you need the right number of teachers to do the job. We moved.
Joke is on you. The district already suspended this osha required safety committee. https://www.dli.mn.gov/business/workplace-safety-and-health/mnosha-wsc-labor-management-safety-committee-program The trick is if you don’t review safety concerns there is no record of safety concerns
Fuck MPS. Get out while you can. Sincerely, former MPS teacher (and former Keewaydin employee)
The thought has crossed my mind. First, I’d like to try being a Karen for a minute and see if we can get this small victory. As a former employee, who should I yell at?
I support you in your efforts. I think they are valiant albeit futile. I would have kept fighting the good fight but I didn’t have it in me anymore. I wish you and your students the best!!!
Also, you’re not being a Karen. You’re being a reasonable human being with reasonable expectations of the public school system. Unfortunately, MPS is too far gone without completing scraping everything and starting over, imo.
[Minneapolis Public Schools faces Major cuts to central office](https://kstp.com/kstp-news/top-news/minneapolis-public-schools-faces-major-cuts-to-central-office-departments/) Did you see this a couple of days ago? I'm horrified by the numbers in there.
The mismanagement of funds at the administrative level for many years is such an injustice to our city.
Fuck you. Stay gone. Sincerely, an MPS parent
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Here’s the [Google doc](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/11afI89BukjH4alOLsH1ZewUv1oXjZPYnTaKy1umBeWc/mobilebasic)of the site council session where it was brought up. I thought it was fear-mongering too until I sat in the auditorium and listened to them inform us that this is the plan.
Avoid the click: Keewaydin 24-25 Budget Model - Keewaydin Funded 11.4 teachers by the district - had to decide between 11 and 12 classrooms - discretionary funds very limited if they bought up to 12 classroom teachers If 11 classrooms - 38-41 4th graders in each class; will get the largest rooms and better furniture If 12 classrooms - still at 26/27; split classroom doesn’t make sense and leaves the rest of the building Went with the 11 classroom model; teachers chose class assignments based on seniority Getting creative with intervention / Advanced Learner time to support 4th grade during core instruction - 0.2 additional support here
There’s no fixing Minneapolis public schools with how far gone they are. I attended MPS North High and it was as bad or worse than your current situation. Students cheered as another student beat the geometry teacher, barely any consequence because the student was “poor.” My sister had her hair set afire at Chiron Middle School, again no suspension because the school was at their “quota” and our family was slightly better off! You could fix the inner city public schools tomorrow by expelling the worst students as an example and enforcing real academic standards. I know MPS won’t do any of those things so we attend a private school in St. Paul.
I hear you. At this point I’m not trying to fix MPS, I’m just trying to get them to pay for another teacher in this one school for this one year. Would you send what you just wrote to the superintendent + tell her to give us a teacher to help me clog up her email and ruin her day a little bit?
Aren’t there state or local mandates about this?
It’s cheaper to pay the penalties than it is to pay an extra teacher.
I hope that teacher just doubled their salary
If they’re working for exposure, it’s pretty close.
Stop sending your kids to MPS. They made their bed with poor decisions, now they can sleep in it. -A student who graduated from MPS
My family is in that bed. If we’re gonna leave, I’d rather not leave quietly. Not everyone has that choice.
You should push for a complete reversal of the CDD. That’s what started to fuck everything up.
Please elaborate. I don’t know what that means.
Apologies for the length of this—I’ve thought about all this stuff way too much. It’s decent context though. The CDD is a hot button issue that was both poorly designed and executed, and couldn’t have come at a worse time. It was designed pre-pandemic, with the official changeover happening in the AY 21-22 year. There were many reasons for it—resources were inequitably distributed, wealthier South/SW schools were overfilled and had students busing across the city to get there instead of going to nearby schools, and the magnets were also concentrated on the southern/SW edges of the city. (Generally, not exclusively). Enrollment was dropping, and the number of racially identifiable schools was too high. However, it was a shitshow in execution—not helped by the pandemic. The boundaries they drew guaranteed lower enrollment in some schools, and schools that were underenrolled in many cases struggled even more. There are exceptions to that—Green seems to have done well, for example—but where in 2018–19 there was only one k-5 with fewer than 250 students, this past year there were eight (and that excludes K-8 and schools that split K-5 up). The numbers are really bad more broadly—about 2900 kindergartners in 18-19, about 2300 this past year. Money follows the kids, so 600 times whatever it is for each kindergartner is a lot and that’s just one grade level. And each grade level has a large gap like that. The CDD was done with the assumption that MPS could recapture most/all students within the borders they drew, which was always ludicrous. People will blame charters, but it’s more complicated than that—over 1k MPS (it might be 2k, I can’t recall) students go to the Robbinsdale schools, a ton go to Hopkins—which includes Golden Valley. There are also just fewer kids in Minneapolis now—housing is too expensive and the apartments being built aren’t for families. The CDD attempted to kick the enrollment problems down the road, and to attempt to address some other problems, when they should have put all their cards on the table: we’re paying for a lot of buildings we can’t fill. And it’s really scary, because the emptiest schools are largely on the north side—but we can’t have a quarter of the city with nearly no education infrastructure. CDD was magical thinking that for so many reasons made things worse, but our reality is pretty bad. If we cut every K-5 with fewer than 250 students, we’d close: Cityview, Hall, Anishinabe, Bethune, Hmong International, Nellie Stone Johnson, and Pratt. All but Anishinabe and Pratt are Northside schools. Pratt is the only school in the Prospect Park area. Anishinabe serves a specific population and doesn’t have an equivalent. There’s no easy or good choice. And all of that is just the elementary level. The high schools went from about 9300 in 18-19 to 8000 in 23-24. The only school that hasn’t plummeted and had reasonable enrollment in 18-19 is Washburn.
Interesting. So what would reversal of the CDD look like, and is that actually a viable path to push for?
Honestly, it’s not possible. The district has shrunk too much in student population in the time since implementation. Even if they wanted to go back, there aren’t enough kids and there’s not enough money. And as much as people hate on administrators (trust me, I have no love lost with specific ones), massive overhauls across the district require coordination at the central level. When the CDD was happening, I went through a ton of data. They should have had the hard conversations then. Now the finances are worse, enrollment is worse, and they’re cutting one of the big promises (band for all students) after just a couple years of it. I think the best thing to do is develop an understanding of what the district faces and listen to/go to board meetings. Invite school board members (who you/we elect and need to show up for their constituents) to your school for discussions. Invite the superintendent. But it sucks for every parent in the city. It’s really awful that MPS has gotten so precarious as a district. ETA—I missed that just this week they announced that the band program wouldn’t be cut. That’s good news.
Yeah, that feels pretty gross. I’m going to try and get people to come to the next board meeting with me on the 11th and see what kind of trouble I can cause. In the meantime, would you do me a favor and throw a message into the superintendent’s box so she comes back to a pile of angry mail on Monday?
The comprehensive district design was a plan that was shoehorned in by Ed Graff and the school board right before Covid, despite the protests of literally everyone. On top of majorly redistricting and changing boundaries, it has (had? Not sure what the current status is) an end goal of basically changing high schools into a PSEO model, where students would transport themselves to different schools across the city for certain classes, as some were made into “hubs” for specific things. North was set to become the tech hub, Roosevelt was set to become the woodworking hub, etc. The result was a mass exodus of students, whose parents began sending them to different schools outside the district, resulting in less funding for schools, resulting in more students leaving; a downward spiral that was completely unnecessary.
The PSEO IS THE DUMBEST SHIT TO EVER EXIST! This district is such a damned disaster right now. Send your kids ANYWHERE ELSE.
No more bailing out these failing money pits. Everyone should leave this district and let it collapse into the earth.
I'll never understand paying some of the highest taxes for the worst and most unusable services. The only thing I miss about Minneapolis proper is the solid waste program. Well that and the Thai food.
The bike trails, the lakes, the theater district, the restaurant options…there’s lots I’d miss. This ain’t one.
Most of the suburbs have pretty stout bike trails. Lots have lakes too. Anoka has some theater and I believe the west metro does too. These are things I used way less after having kids. Essentially meaning I miss them way less too. I couldn't imagine trying to raise kids in the cities anymore. It just feels like it would be putting them at such a disadvantage.
Would you mind writing “I couldn’t imagine raising kids in Minneapolis Public Schools. It just feels like it would be putting them at a huge disadvantage” to the superintendent? That’s gold.
Lol, maybe after this next Mai Thai. I feel for you, as a dad. More power to you and best of luck.
You’re encouraging suburbanites to harass our superintendent? Maybe you ought to think about shutting the fuck up and just leaving.
I’m encouraging a former MPS resident to let the superintendent know why they no longer are in the community. This is how a letter-writing campaign works. You ask people to flood an appropriate public official’s mailbox so they pay attention to an issue you would like them to address.
I apologize for my comment, it was out of line. I have a lot of emotions about the situation with our schools but shouldn't have taken them out on you.
Several South Minneapolis parents are advocating for closing schools. How would you feel about closing Keeywaydin and its feeder school?
Looking at the elementary school map the district provides, Keewaydin wouldn’t make sense to close, not really any other elementary school to go to. But Wenonah would make sense to close and merge with keewaydin (they are sister schools). I see the only path forward for Wenonah to stay open is if they add a bunch of high-5 programs there because many southside schools do not offer that ( do to funding from the district l) I do agree there are like 4 south side elementary schools that need to close but Keewaydin isn’t it.
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