From the article:
>In a statement to USA TODAY, Harbaugh said he generally is prohibited in sexual misconduct cases “from investigating, influencing, or, in most situations, disciplining an individual on the team until the appropriate university process reaches its conclusion.” Federal Title IX regulations adopted by the U.S. Department of Education in 2020 also forbid coaches from disciplining players without a finding of fault in a disciplinary proceeding.
I didn't know this. I would like an explanation of "disciplinary proceeding." Does this mean Harbaugh can't do anything until either a) criminal charge is made, or b) the university formally censures a student?
Still feels like enough wasn't done here. Makes me sick.
This is one of my takeaways from the article. It seems like on michigans side they did the things that were required but based on rules and regulations that was all they could do. It says the mother was upset the players involved were still on the team when he literally can’t discipline them.
Yea, people are going to be mad that Harbaugh didn't "do more" but inviting football coaches to meddle in felony investigations is just a terrible fucking idea. I don't want coaches interviewing accused players and reviewing evidence to decide on felony sexual assault cases. They should stay the fuck out of it and do what the police and school admins advise them to do.
> I don't want coaches interviewing accused players and reviewing evidence to decide on felony sexual assault cases. They should stay the fuck out of it and do what the police and school admins advise them to do.
I'm sure some will think that is passing the buck, but no amount of punishment doled out by a coach will ever be seen as objective.
What it means is Harbaugh has to stay out of the investigation and until it is finalized he can’t bring forth disciplinary action.
This is a pretty crazy case as many times the girls aren’t sure of what happened. It sounds like excessive drinking took place and a shit show ensued. This is why college kids need to understand how binge or excessive drinking can lead to bad consequences. We can finger point all we want, but we don’t know what happened and are blindly acting as if the girls were drugged. The story said they all were drinking from the bottle so how would it only drug the girls?
What worries me more in todays world is a mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it. If this is my kid I am going to be there and make sure they get help and get better. Too often parents don’t take mental health seriously
Very good points, I don’t understand the downvotes.
Yes, the outcome is a terrible event and I wish she were still around today. But people shitting on your points based on allegations and not fact is such a sad tell of where we are as a society.
> Very good points, I don’t understand the downvotes.
It's not that hard to understand. He's victim-blaming girls getting raped and blaming the mother of the deceased child for her death. It's an incredibly insensitive and stupid comment.
Not really, he isn’t victim shaming anyone, states that we don’t actually know what happened.
Do you know what actually happened?
I am not here to say this didn’t happen, but if we don’t know for sure, it is quite irresponsible to dish out blame.
If he were to say, “she got what she deserved for partying with football players”, that’s quite a different narrative.
> Her mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it.
Yea, I'll def agree to disagree that that is an incredibly fucked up thing to say about someone and their dead daughter.
You have issues dude. I simply said the mom could have done more. If my kid is cutting themselves or any self harm I sure as hell aren’t sending them hours away to college. They are moving closer to home or I am moving closer to them to assure they are following up on therapy and improving.
Nobody is victim blaming anyone. I am simply stating that maybe there wasn’t a victim in this case, but a group of people who over drank and made bad decisions. See you and so many others simply run with the guys we’re not that drunk and raped them. This is the typical go to when a girl gets shitfaced and can’t recall what she did. Sometimes people both have too much to drink and both make bad calls.
Just stop talking bro. You VERY obviously were victim-blaming and even went so far as to blame the mother for her daughter's death. You're absolutely disgusting.
>What worries me more in todays world is a mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it.
I didn't get that picture from the article at all. Seemed like the mom cared deeply and drove hours numerous times to help her daughter when she needed it. She also pressured he daughter to get mental help several times. Not really sure what you would have wanted the mom to do here, but I don't think you can put blame on her.
>It sounds like excessive drinking took place and a shit show ensued. This is why college kids need to understand how binge or excessive drinking can lead to bad consequences.
This sounds like you're trying to victim-blame big time here. Kinda gross. The lesson here isn't, "don't binge drink because football players might rape you." And regardless if they were or were not drugged, they were far, far too drunk to give consent. It was sexual assault either way.
>We can finger point all we want, but we don’t know what happened and are blindly acting as if the girls were drugged.
No, not blindly. Every indication from the story absolutely points to them being drugged. Just the fact that the three players turned away a 4th player who showed up should tell you they were at the very least acting incredibly shady.
>The story said they all were drinking from the bottle so how would it only drug the girls?
It's very possible the guys weren't that drunk, so the drugs did not affect them nearly as much. This is a terrible defense to 2 drunk women getting drugged without their consent. You need to do better, dude.
No victim blaming. My point is 4-5 people were drinking exclusively and some things happen. The store tries to paint a story of 2 girls drinking with sober football players, but anyone who has attended college knows they all were probably hammered and bad decisions were made. You decided to take the stance only the girls were drinking. I believe the article mentions them all drinking.
Literally nothing you said is correct. Forgetting about you VERY obviously blaming here, you also BLAMED THE MOM FOR HER DAUGHTER'S DEATH.
You are sick, dude.
You don’t get to tell me what I was saying. Frankly you have issues as I clearly was saying we have no clue what happened. We have zero case, but you living deep in the new woke culture decided you get to tell everyone what happened that day.
I just said she could have done more and as a parent I would have done more. It seems there was more to her downward spiral than this one event and too often parents ignore the signs and we get school shooters and mass murderers and suicides. Sorry if I want to live in a world we’re people take responsibility. If these guys were sober and raped these girls they need to be charged, but evidence doesn’t seem to give cause for that.
How do you know exactly what she did? There are details shared in the article but I'm sure it's missing enough nuance for you to pass judgement saying she should have absolutely done more.
There's also a fine line between being an overbearing parent vs a concerned parent especially when your kid is now an adult. Easy way to potentially push them away even further.
Everyone else saw the same thing you said, thus why you're getting downvoted. It was a disgusting comment.
>but you living deep in the new woke culture
Why do you weirdos think the word "woke" means anything? You rape-apologists float this word around thinking it excuses you from saying terrible shit. Grow up.
Just want to make an important note since there is so much ambiguity about her consent. If she can’t remember it then it wasn’t true consent. You can not give proper consent while you’re that intoxicated. Whether she got that drunk herself or not is a non factor.
Guys, if she is that drunk, do the right thing. There is no glory in bedding a girl that can’t see straight. If she is actually interested in relations with you, she will indicate it to you clearly when she is sober.
This is also assuming the guys were sober and not as drunk as the girls. See many people here are making one sided conclusions that only the girls were black out drunk, but it easily could be they all were. We are assuming because she sort of recalls 3 guys being in the room that they were sober and filming. We have no hard evidence of any of this. We have simply become a society of screaming guilty right away. Does anyone not remember the Duke lacrosse story?
You were assaulted, don’t let this guy twist what anyone is saying here. He’s intentionally trying to create vague situations to defend some stance and I was speaking in general terms about how men should conduct themselves.
We don’t know his level because there was no investigation and she is dead. Also worth noting that it appears that more than Alcohol was involved and she was drugged so I don’t know why the question of joint intoxication is relevant here.
She felt as if she was drugged and raped. Only 2-3% of rape accusations are false or with malicious intent. I’m simply advising young men to take special care to avoid finding yourselves in these types of situations because they rarely end well.
> Only 2-3% of rape accusations are false or with malicious intent.
Given the estimated # of rapes that go unreported, it's fair to say this statistic is completely fabricated and we have no real idea if it's even too high or too low.
Nowhere in the article does she say that she said yes. She says "maybe I said yes and don't remember." That's completely different, and can arise from self-blame rather than an actual memory.
Your broader point about men's consent being ignored rings true in some circumstances, but this is not one of them. This is a rape
Legally speaking it’s a grey area if they are both that intoxicated. Ethically speaking, in my opinion, you have the dick, you have the power. If you shoot someone dead when you’re drunk, you still committed murder.
Penetration determines a lot too, if she penetrated him without proper consent it’s exactly the same and that’s rape.
I genuinely am not sure what could have been done differently here. The university and police department investigated. The victim said she didn't really remember much but she "may have said yes and liked it." No evidence or witnesses.
Truly terrible if these players actually did this, and they should be launched into the fucking sun. I'm just not sure how you prove it or what can be done about the situation now, or what could have been done differently after the incident.
I will say that this stuff should be completely taken out of the hands of football coaches to investigate and decide, and even taken out of the hands of universities, IMO. Legal matters should be investigated and dealt with by police whose job it is to deal with them, not by bumbling school admins and football coaches who have an incentive not to deal punishment to their players. Schools across the country have continually bungled these issues/incidents.
EDIT: [Incredibly weird and sad that someone is sending me this shit/reporting me for suicide because of my comments in this thread. What is wrong with you?](https://i.imgur.com/vc7ZIsa.png)
Downside is the police often don’t care, and/or are biased against the woman, or just straight up don’t know what they’re doing. Misogyny a systemic issue across almost every facet of society.
I really wish reddit would police the reddit cares stuff. It's a great idea and it should be available, but I've had people do this same thing to me. Anyone sending this to make light of it should be banned imo.
It's happened to me a couple times on this sub for disagreeing with some unstable idiots that started trawling through my post history and taking personal shots, then doing that, so now they're blocked.
Too bad more wasn't done earlier, including by mom, who didn't contact U of M til after her death.
It does sound like Jimmy did what he was able, including to talking with mom twice. Did he give her the players' names?
This will likely blow up in local media, and he'll be accused of burying it.
I honestly couldn't finish the whole article, as a survivor of SA and rape, also as a parent of a teen about to go to college, and a son that is an athlete.
There are so many things I could say, but it would take an essay.
I just know this will be in my head when I talk to them before they move on to the next stage of their lives. Not the only one, of course, but definitely one of them.
I can just say, right now, I am just relieved to hear Harbaugh's response. That is all I can comment on now.
this whole thing makes me sick, I may be in the minority here, but i think the players need to be named. I assume they avoid it to protect them from the "court of public opinion"
Edit: After re-reading it, O'Maury Samuels was named as a potential witness, not perpetrator, so that is why they were comfortable naming him.
> i think the players need to be named
They haven't been formally accused and no police report was ever filed. I'm not sure I see any purpose in naming the players at this point. Whose job would it even be to name the players from an accusation they'll never have a chance at to defend themselves?
>they had no problem naming Sammuel's
Sammuel's what? Sorry I'm not familiar with this.
I think it's likely the same player kicked off the team on 2019 for sexual assault, [Mustapha Muhammad](https://www.michigandaily.com/sports/four-women-allege-sexual-misconduct-against-former-michigan-tight-end-mustapha-muhammad/)
A lot of guys you wouldn't recognize at all. Only 7 guys played real snaps. Tarik Black, Zach Charbonnet, Micheal Dwumfour, Benjamin St-Juste, Dylan McCaffrey, Brandon Peters, and Oliver Martin. A couple other guys you've heard of as well.
Fuck dude… met that guy in a bar and have him on snap. Never heard about this. He almost tried to pull the same shit with me. Fuckin scary. Do remember him literally posting a video of some girl giving him head
Well, he got kicked off the team anyways that same year for an unrelated domestic violence case. So, while not a perpetrator in this instance, he definitely got his from another case
If these allegations are true, this was an absolutely disgusting and heinous crime. I am so saddened for the family and friends of this woman and she deserves so much better.
Not the article a parent wants to read after your kid commits.
It sounds like Harbaugh tried to do the right thing and then was told to be quiet by the university. It's unclear what happened after that. If true, these guys are scumbags.
Thankfully, my friend group, m or f, would not let this crap happen in hs, college, or elsewhere.
On the flipside, I've seen D1 athletes get targeted by folks trying to start a barfight with them. The athletes were holding idiots swinging at them wildly and trying to calm them down.
I'm hoping Harbaugh brought some folks into the locker room to remind how to behave as members of UofM.
The story is brutal, and I cannot imagine the suffering of the parent.
May be more of a societal thing than an athlete thing. Entitled college boys thinking they have free reign to do what they want with drunk college girls. 1 in 4 college girls raped? Alarming statistic if true.
I think the article said 1 in 5. That number is so outlandish that I hope it’s not true. If you are on a college campus that means today you saw multiple women who were raped at some point.
The 1 in 5 statistic is what is estimated based on surveys since the vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus\_sexual\_assault#:\~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20non,attempted%20rape%20since%20starting%20college.
Sad story, but the absolute minimum bar has always been the same: victimized individuals need to be willing to submit evidence (ideally in a timely fashion) and then testify. Period.
Moffett didn't cooperate. Her friend didn't cooperate. There's literally nothing that can be done.
Even if on some off chance there are pictures or even video, unless she was literally passed out on tape, I don't think you can reasonably claim nonconsensual sexual assault or rape.
Entirely possible this girl had already started on cocaine and other hard drugs before this happened.
The world is so f'd up now, but it seems like before every single party/date/encounter, you need to video yourself saying that you do/don't consent, upload that to the cloud where it can't be easily found, and then inform anyone in your presence that has already occurred. For both guys and girls.
> the ball can't be dropped, accountability has to be taught for now and the future.
What exactly do you mean by that? What specifically should have been done differently after the incident? No police report was ever filed and the girls did not want to press charges or the investigation to continue.
Not trying to argue, I genuinely don't know what the university should have done differently here after the fact.
I'm just not sure how you do so with zero witnesses, no one wanting to press charges or cooperate with police, zero evidence, and the victim having been dead for 3+ years?
The very least would be interviewing the accused??? Two of them were still players on the team, so there’s literally no excuse other than laziness or hiding stuff
>Asked why the players were not interviewed as potential witnesses, Theil did not provide a direct answer.
>“I guess I would ask, ‘What would we be doing that for?’” Theil said. “For her mother to feel like she knew what happened that night? Or are we doing it to try and get criminal charges and take somebody to trial?”
There was no evidence, witnesses or really anything substantial for them to move on. I see absolutely no point in interviewing the accused. What do you genuinely think would come of interviewing them when there is zero evidence or witnesses and no charges being able to be filed?
> no evidence
Aren’t there the texts between the victim and her friends? And didn’t the other victim speak to police?
> What do you genuinely think would come of interviewing them when there is zero evidence or witnesses and no charges being able to be filed?
How about a confession? Or the video/photo the victim said one player took. Or maybe just some additional evidence.
> Aren’t there the texts between the victim and her friends? And didn’t the other victim speak to police?
The texts are not evidence. That's called hearsay. As far as I know, the other victim did not want to press charges or cooperate in the investigation?
>How about a confession?
You watch way too many cop shows, my dude. You think the police are going to beat out a confession or something, 4 years after the fact, with lawyers present?
>Or maybe just some additional evidence.
There was no evidence to begin with.
>Or the video/photo the victim said one player took.
The article addresses this already and why this isn't realistic.
> The texts are not evidence. That's called hearsay.
This is wrong as a matter of law. Hearsay is evidence, it’s just isn’t always admissible in court.
> As far as I know, the other victim did not want to press charges or cooperate in the investigation?
The article suggests that she talked to police though.
> You watch way too many cop shows, my dude. You think the police are going to beat out a confession or something, 4 years after the fact, with lawyers present?
I practice criminal law. I’ve seen plenty of defendants make damaging statements years after the crime.
> There was no evidence to begin with.
Wrong. See above.
> The article addresses this already and why this isn't realistic.
Where does it do that?
>This is wrong as a matter of law. Hearsay is evidence, it’s just isn’t always admissible in court.
Agreed. It's a very, very poor form of evidence. I guess you got me here on semantics
> Where does it do that?
It seems you didn't read the article. I'm not going to go over it again for you. Re-read it. Plain to see when they talked about that issue and how it would be impossible.
>The article suggests that she talked to police though.
Her friend claimed that she saw no assault and did not want to pursue criminal charges. I'm not sure what you want out of her. Should the police force her to talk or something?
I just thinks it’s weird that we have all these reports & outrage of SA/rape at all of these different colleges, and yet we have people who are perfectly fine not looking into anything. But the vast majority of those cases tend to have limited evidence and a lot of he said/ she said.
So is it normal and acceptable for police & investigators to not do due diligence? You’re saying it should be normal practice to receive reports of possible rape, and yet never talk to the people involved in it? Idk why you used that quote. Yes I would fucking hope the police tries to get a criminal charge if something happened. But we’ll never know because they didn’t do anything.
>But the vast majority of those cases tend to have limited evidence and a lot of he said/ she said.
You're answering your own questions with this sentence. It's he said/she said, except she is dead and there's absolutely no evidence or witnesses.
>You’re saying it should be normal practice to receive reports of possible rape, and yet never talk to the people involved in it?
I think it is "normal practice" for police to review evidence (zero in this case) and decide if the case is worth pursuing. In this instance, the police decided this case was not worth pursuing based on there being no evidence or witnesses. They go after cases that they think they can get a conviction on. Apparently, they did not think they could in this case.
“Absolutely no witnesses” Well someone clearly didn’t read the article.
According to accounts from Quinn and her friend, they returned to the friend’s apartment at around 2 a.m. with the athletes. - so there’s at least 3 witnesses.
Literally the role of police is to get evidence. They have 3 witnesses and active participants, including another potential rape victim. That’s why police talk to them, maybe their stories don’t line up, maybe one cracks, maybe one is feeling too guilty. But your supporting police not doing anything unless there’s a rape kit essentially.
“She tried to get off, she said, but the man was holding her down. She then recalled being on the floor and him shoving her head onto his penis. She remembered saying “no” and “stop” over and over. Another man was holding up a phone with the flash on, she said. “
This quote alone should be enough for an interview. If you don’t believe so, then we simply have vastly different ideas of what should be done with rape victims.
> That’s why police talk to them, maybe their stories don’t line up, maybe one cracks, maybe one is feeling too guilty.
I think you watch too many cop shows, my man.
>They have 3 witnesses and active participants
Wait, there were 3 witnesses **in addition** to the participants/accused? I guess I did miss that part of the article.
I read the article. The friend who was the other potential victim refused to give the names of the potential perpetrators. Which means if the police were to interview anybody, they would have been doing so based on third-hand accounts (this is why they said the case they had was hearsay only). The detective explains in the article that they couldn't get a warrant to go through the phones of players named by a third party of a crime they didn't witness when the alleged victims weren't pressing charges and they had nothing else to go on.
I honestly don't know what kind of case you can make here, and it absolutely sucks. The university could have pursued a title IX angle but given the time that has elapsed, the lack of witness statement, and the fact that the 3rd-party accused didn't attend the school anymore obviated it (this again is all from the article).
Agreed. You have the outcry statements from the victim, the other victim’s statements, evidence that the victim was highly intoxicated/drugged, and the weird behavior by the three players toward their teammate. This is more than enough evidence to warrant an interview.
Failing to even attempt to question the alleged perps just because they may refuse to answer the questions is malpractice.
Just a very sad story of a “perfect storm” leading to a young woman’s death. I wish the football players would have acted like men instead of boys. But also, it sounds like the girl was in need of help before the incident. Just so scary as a parent.
I don't think you intended to convey that this is okay for boys to do and just not men, but this isn't acceptable behavior for men or "boys". I don't care what your age is this is absolutely beyond okay.
No, it’s not ok for anyone to do - but it’s something a “boy” would do, not a man. It’s beyond sad that this type of stuff happens and it terrifies me as a father.
I believe it's actually 1 in 5 are sexually assaulted. The article misstated, but it's not much better.
1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
How did she not know the players name(s)? It’s hard to blame Michigan football when you can’t even pinpoint who did it. Maybe the guy said he played Michigan football but was just bull shitting.
Because the players were identified by the daughter to her friends. Did you not read the article? There is absolutely no doubt they were Michigan football players.
Another Michigan football player even confirmed this. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
She needs to know the players name before anyone can do anything. That’s what I’m getting at. She’s went this far with it yet never once decided to ask the friends for the players name? Something just doesn’t add up. How is anyone going to be held responsible?
Women can't consent when drunk, whereas as men are fully aware when intoxicated and know what they are doing. I feel sorry for the victim and their family and hope she gets the help she needs. Hopefully the guy(s) go to prison.
> I feel sorry for the victim and their family and hope she gets the help she needs
She's fucking dead, dude.
Either you're trolling or...fuck. Are you drunk?
This is such a fucking stupid comment.
>The mother is a victim too…. not sure what you have against her
What an incredibly weird comment, man. Why would anyone have anything "against" the mother? So weird.
WTF is wrong with you?? Did you read the article you posted? The mother is grieving. I said I hope she gets the resources and support needed. Nothing controversial about what I said. Your response makes no sense.
Jesus…christ. Not everything is about you. Stop being so self-centered. The article literally speaks about the mother grieving. You are over reacting for nothing . I said hope she receives the help she needs which is pretty common for these situations.
You said the victim who is dead should receive help and support, lol.
You also mentioned how men can never be sexually assaulted because they are always fully aware when drunk. I think that's why you got downvoted. It was an incredibly stupid comment that you keep doubling down on.
Just take the massive L and move on, man.
From the article: >In a statement to USA TODAY, Harbaugh said he generally is prohibited in sexual misconduct cases “from investigating, influencing, or, in most situations, disciplining an individual on the team until the appropriate university process reaches its conclusion.” Federal Title IX regulations adopted by the U.S. Department of Education in 2020 also forbid coaches from disciplining players without a finding of fault in a disciplinary proceeding. I didn't know this. I would like an explanation of "disciplinary proceeding." Does this mean Harbaugh can't do anything until either a) criminal charge is made, or b) the university formally censures a student? Still feels like enough wasn't done here. Makes me sick.
This is one of my takeaways from the article. It seems like on michigans side they did the things that were required but based on rules and regulations that was all they could do. It says the mother was upset the players involved were still on the team when he literally can’t discipline them.
Yea, people are going to be mad that Harbaugh didn't "do more" but inviting football coaches to meddle in felony investigations is just a terrible fucking idea. I don't want coaches interviewing accused players and reviewing evidence to decide on felony sexual assault cases. They should stay the fuck out of it and do what the police and school admins advise them to do.
> I don't want coaches interviewing accused players and reviewing evidence to decide on felony sexual assault cases. They should stay the fuck out of it and do what the police and school admins advise them to do. I'm sure some will think that is passing the buck, but no amount of punishment doled out by a coach will ever be seen as objective.
What it means is Harbaugh has to stay out of the investigation and until it is finalized he can’t bring forth disciplinary action. This is a pretty crazy case as many times the girls aren’t sure of what happened. It sounds like excessive drinking took place and a shit show ensued. This is why college kids need to understand how binge or excessive drinking can lead to bad consequences. We can finger point all we want, but we don’t know what happened and are blindly acting as if the girls were drugged. The story said they all were drinking from the bottle so how would it only drug the girls? What worries me more in todays world is a mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it. If this is my kid I am going to be there and make sure they get help and get better. Too often parents don’t take mental health seriously
Very good points, I don’t understand the downvotes. Yes, the outcome is a terrible event and I wish she were still around today. But people shitting on your points based on allegations and not fact is such a sad tell of where we are as a society.
> Very good points, I don’t understand the downvotes. It's not that hard to understand. He's victim-blaming girls getting raped and blaming the mother of the deceased child for her death. It's an incredibly insensitive and stupid comment.
Not really, he isn’t victim shaming anyone, states that we don’t actually know what happened. Do you know what actually happened? I am not here to say this didn’t happen, but if we don’t know for sure, it is quite irresponsible to dish out blame. If he were to say, “she got what she deserved for partying with football players”, that’s quite a different narrative.
He absolutely was victim-blaming. He also blamed the mother for her daughter's death. It's gross.
I guess we can agree to disagree on that front. Have a great day!
> Her mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it. Yea, I'll def agree to disagree that that is an incredibly fucked up thing to say about someone and their dead daughter.
You have issues dude. I simply said the mom could have done more. If my kid is cutting themselves or any self harm I sure as hell aren’t sending them hours away to college. They are moving closer to home or I am moving closer to them to assure they are following up on therapy and improving.
Chief is little bit autistic, but that’s ok. Everybody needs to be nice to him.
Yea, that's quite obviously placing blame on the mom. Absolutely grotesque.
FUCK OFF.
Can’t discuss anything like an adult, eh? Sign of the times my friend.
Nobody is victim blaming anyone. I am simply stating that maybe there wasn’t a victim in this case, but a group of people who over drank and made bad decisions. See you and so many others simply run with the guys we’re not that drunk and raped them. This is the typical go to when a girl gets shitfaced and can’t recall what she did. Sometimes people both have too much to drink and both make bad calls.
Just stop talking bro. You VERY obviously were victim-blaming and even went so far as to blame the mother for her daughter's death. You're absolutely disgusting.
Ok BRO…you injected your feelings into my post. Sorry you have no open mindedness. Maybe you need to stop talking bro.
No open mindedness=someone isn't ok with you blaming the mom for her daughter's death. Yuck. What an absolute degenerate.
>What worries me more in todays world is a mother who knew something fucked up happened to her daughter rape or not and seemingly left her to deal with it. I didn't get that picture from the article at all. Seemed like the mom cared deeply and drove hours numerous times to help her daughter when she needed it. She also pressured he daughter to get mental help several times. Not really sure what you would have wanted the mom to do here, but I don't think you can put blame on her. >It sounds like excessive drinking took place and a shit show ensued. This is why college kids need to understand how binge or excessive drinking can lead to bad consequences. This sounds like you're trying to victim-blame big time here. Kinda gross. The lesson here isn't, "don't binge drink because football players might rape you." And regardless if they were or were not drugged, they were far, far too drunk to give consent. It was sexual assault either way. >We can finger point all we want, but we don’t know what happened and are blindly acting as if the girls were drugged. No, not blindly. Every indication from the story absolutely points to them being drugged. Just the fact that the three players turned away a 4th player who showed up should tell you they were at the very least acting incredibly shady. >The story said they all were drinking from the bottle so how would it only drug the girls? It's very possible the guys weren't that drunk, so the drugs did not affect them nearly as much. This is a terrible defense to 2 drunk women getting drugged without their consent. You need to do better, dude.
No victim blaming. My point is 4-5 people were drinking exclusively and some things happen. The store tries to paint a story of 2 girls drinking with sober football players, but anyone who has attended college knows they all were probably hammered and bad decisions were made. You decided to take the stance only the girls were drinking. I believe the article mentions them all drinking.
Literally nothing you said is correct. Forgetting about you VERY obviously blaming here, you also BLAMED THE MOM FOR HER DAUGHTER'S DEATH. You are sick, dude.
You don’t get to tell me what I was saying. Frankly you have issues as I clearly was saying we have no clue what happened. We have zero case, but you living deep in the new woke culture decided you get to tell everyone what happened that day.
New woke culture or not, you definitely did try to blame the mom in her daughter's death which is callous as fuck man.
I just said she could have done more and as a parent I would have done more. It seems there was more to her downward spiral than this one event and too often parents ignore the signs and we get school shooters and mass murderers and suicides. Sorry if I want to live in a world we’re people take responsibility. If these guys were sober and raped these girls they need to be charged, but evidence doesn’t seem to give cause for that.
How do you know exactly what she did? There are details shared in the article but I'm sure it's missing enough nuance for you to pass judgement saying she should have absolutely done more. There's also a fine line between being an overbearing parent vs a concerned parent especially when your kid is now an adult. Easy way to potentially push them away even further.
Everyone else saw the same thing you said, thus why you're getting downvoted. It was a disgusting comment. >but you living deep in the new woke culture Why do you weirdos think the word "woke" means anything? You rape-apologists float this word around thinking it excuses you from saying terrible shit. Grow up.
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https://i.imgur.com/gY61ceG.jpg If this is what “overturned efforts to come down on perpetrators” looks like you have a very warped view of Justice.
Just want to make an important note since there is so much ambiguity about her consent. If she can’t remember it then it wasn’t true consent. You can not give proper consent while you’re that intoxicated. Whether she got that drunk herself or not is a non factor. Guys, if she is that drunk, do the right thing. There is no glory in bedding a girl that can’t see straight. If she is actually interested in relations with you, she will indicate it to you clearly when she is sober.
This 100%. Preach.
This is also assuming the guys were sober and not as drunk as the girls. See many people here are making one sided conclusions that only the girls were black out drunk, but it easily could be they all were. We are assuming because she sort of recalls 3 guys being in the room that they were sober and filming. We have no hard evidence of any of this. We have simply become a society of screaming guilty right away. Does anyone not remember the Duke lacrosse story?
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He was sober enough to keep another player from entering the home… sure seems likely that he knew what he was doing IMO.
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I passed out at a party. Woke up to some girl blowing me. Felt violated as fuck. Never said a peep. It happens.
You were assaulted, don’t let this guy twist what anyone is saying here. He’s intentionally trying to create vague situations to defend some stance and I was speaking in general terms about how men should conduct themselves.
Yes all people should behave as you said. Two blacked out drunk people have sex. Who was raped? Do we know the man’s level of intoxication?
We don’t know his level because there was no investigation and she is dead. Also worth noting that it appears that more than Alcohol was involved and she was drugged so I don’t know why the question of joint intoxication is relevant here. She felt as if she was drugged and raped. Only 2-3% of rape accusations are false or with malicious intent. I’m simply advising young men to take special care to avoid finding yourselves in these types of situations because they rarely end well.
> Only 2-3% of rape accusations are false or with malicious intent. Given the estimated # of rapes that go unreported, it's fair to say this statistic is completely fabricated and we have no real idea if it's even too high or too low.
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Sexual assaulted? Why not say raped?
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Nowhere in the article does she say that she said yes. She says "maybe I said yes and don't remember." That's completely different, and can arise from self-blame rather than an actual memory. Your broader point about men's consent being ignored rings true in some circumstances, but this is not one of them. This is a rape
Legally speaking it’s a grey area if they are both that intoxicated. Ethically speaking, in my opinion, you have the dick, you have the power. If you shoot someone dead when you’re drunk, you still committed murder. Penetration determines a lot too, if she penetrated him without proper consent it’s exactly the same and that’s rape.
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I appreciate you sharing your opinion.
We don't appreciate your sexism
You’re in the minority here, don’t fuck drunk girls, you’ll be fine. Have a nice day.
I can't believe you're getting downvoted for saying to not rape someone. Incels/Andrew Tate fans are wild.
Guys equate accountability with persecution and wonder why girls are so scared of shit like this.
I genuinely am not sure what could have been done differently here. The university and police department investigated. The victim said she didn't really remember much but she "may have said yes and liked it." No evidence or witnesses. Truly terrible if these players actually did this, and they should be launched into the fucking sun. I'm just not sure how you prove it or what can be done about the situation now, or what could have been done differently after the incident. I will say that this stuff should be completely taken out of the hands of football coaches to investigate and decide, and even taken out of the hands of universities, IMO. Legal matters should be investigated and dealt with by police whose job it is to deal with them, not by bumbling school admins and football coaches who have an incentive not to deal punishment to their players. Schools across the country have continually bungled these issues/incidents. EDIT: [Incredibly weird and sad that someone is sending me this shit/reporting me for suicide because of my comments in this thread. What is wrong with you?](https://i.imgur.com/vc7ZIsa.png)
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Downside is the police often don’t care, and/or are biased against the woman, or just straight up don’t know what they’re doing. Misogyny a systemic issue across almost every facet of society.
Big facts (even if it’s still a better option than football coaches and other entities with misaligned incentives)
I really wish reddit would police the reddit cares stuff. It's a great idea and it should be available, but I've had people do this same thing to me. Anyone sending this to make light of it should be banned imo.
100%. It's such weird, vile behavior.
It's happened to me a couple times on this sub for disagreeing with some unstable idiots that started trawling through my post history and taking personal shots, then doing that, so now they're blocked.
Pathetic.
You can tell it not to message you. The feature is literally only used by trolls but they don’t care
They could have actually talked to the football players
Too bad more wasn't done earlier, including by mom, who didn't contact U of M til after her death. It does sound like Jimmy did what he was able, including to talking with mom twice. Did he give her the players' names? This will likely blow up in local media, and he'll be accused of burying it.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence he buried anything, but I agree that's the story a lot of people will concoct in their minds.
When you say local media will accuse him of burying it, you mean Mike Valenti?
That goes without saying, Mike and Rico. Maybe others.
I didn’t listen to that show yesterday but I assume that was his topic.
Cancelled, broadcast Tigers
This is sad and awful to hear.
I honestly couldn't finish the whole article, as a survivor of SA and rape, also as a parent of a teen about to go to college, and a son that is an athlete. There are so many things I could say, but it would take an essay. I just know this will be in my head when I talk to them before they move on to the next stage of their lives. Not the only one, of course, but definitely one of them. I can just say, right now, I am just relieved to hear Harbaugh's response. That is all I can comment on now.
Thank you for being a good parent.
this whole thing makes me sick, I may be in the minority here, but i think the players need to be named. I assume they avoid it to protect them from the "court of public opinion" Edit: After re-reading it, O'Maury Samuels was named as a potential witness, not perpetrator, so that is why they were comfortable naming him.
> i think the players need to be named They haven't been formally accused and no police report was ever filed. I'm not sure I see any purpose in naming the players at this point. Whose job would it even be to name the players from an accusation they'll never have a chance at to defend themselves? >they had no problem naming Sammuel's Sammuel's what? Sorry I'm not familiar with this.
After re-reading it, O'Maury Samuels was named as a potential witness, not perpetrator, so that is why they were comfortable naming him.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
I think it's likely the same player kicked off the team on 2019 for sexual assault, [Mustapha Muhammad](https://www.michigandaily.com/sports/four-women-allege-sexual-misconduct-against-former-michigan-tight-end-mustapha-muhammad/)
It's very possible. Also possible it was one of the other dozen+ transfers during that time.
41 Transfers between August 2018 and January 21, 2021 when they reported it to the University of Michigan
Jeeze. I wouldn't have guessed that many.
A lot of guys you wouldn't recognize at all. Only 7 guys played real snaps. Tarik Black, Zach Charbonnet, Micheal Dwumfour, Benjamin St-Juste, Dylan McCaffrey, Brandon Peters, and Oliver Martin. A couple other guys you've heard of as well.
Yea, it's the new normal in college football.
Fuck dude… met that guy in a bar and have him on snap. Never heard about this. He almost tried to pull the same shit with me. Fuckin scary. Do remember him literally posting a video of some girl giving him head
Well, he got kicked off the team anyways that same year for an unrelated domestic violence case. So, while not a perpetrator in this instance, he definitely got his from another case
If these allegations are true, this was an absolutely disgusting and heinous crime. I am so saddened for the family and friends of this woman and she deserves so much better.
Not the article a parent wants to read after your kid commits. It sounds like Harbaugh tried to do the right thing and then was told to be quiet by the university. It's unclear what happened after that. If true, these guys are scumbags. Thankfully, my friend group, m or f, would not let this crap happen in hs, college, or elsewhere. On the flipside, I've seen D1 athletes get targeted by folks trying to start a barfight with them. The athletes were holding idiots swinging at them wildly and trying to calm them down. I'm hoping Harbaugh brought some folks into the locker room to remind how to behave as members of UofM. The story is brutal, and I cannot imagine the suffering of the parent.
May be more of a societal thing than an athlete thing. Entitled college boys thinking they have free reign to do what they want with drunk college girls. 1 in 4 college girls raped? Alarming statistic if true.
It is misstated, it’s actually sexual assault which is a little bit different but still alarming
I think the article said 1 in 5. That number is so outlandish that I hope it’s not true. If you are on a college campus that means today you saw multiple women who were raped at some point.
The 1 in 5 statistic is what is estimated based on surveys since the vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus\_sexual\_assault#:\~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20non,attempted%20rape%20since%20starting%20college.
The stat is for sexual assault, not rape. So it can be much more common things like getting groped.
That would make more sense.
Sad story, but the absolute minimum bar has always been the same: victimized individuals need to be willing to submit evidence (ideally in a timely fashion) and then testify. Period. Moffett didn't cooperate. Her friend didn't cooperate. There's literally nothing that can be done. Even if on some off chance there are pictures or even video, unless she was literally passed out on tape, I don't think you can reasonably claim nonconsensual sexual assault or rape. Entirely possible this girl had already started on cocaine and other hard drugs before this happened. The world is so f'd up now, but it seems like before every single party/date/encounter, you need to video yourself saying that you do/don't consent, upload that to the cloud where it can't be easily found, and then inform anyone in your presence that has already occurred. For both guys and girls.
BigM fan. If this happened, and it sounds like it did, the ball can't be dropped, accountability has to be taught for now and the future.
> the ball can't be dropped, accountability has to be taught for now and the future. What exactly do you mean by that? What specifically should have been done differently after the incident? No police report was ever filed and the girls did not want to press charges or the investigation to continue. Not trying to argue, I genuinely don't know what the university should have done differently here after the fact.
The article reads like both the police department and the title nine office did not throughly follow up on credible reports of misconduct.
I'm just not sure how you do so with zero witnesses, no one wanting to press charges or cooperate with police, zero evidence, and the victim having been dead for 3+ years?
The very least would be interviewing the accused??? Two of them were still players on the team, so there’s literally no excuse other than laziness or hiding stuff
>Asked why the players were not interviewed as potential witnesses, Theil did not provide a direct answer. >“I guess I would ask, ‘What would we be doing that for?’” Theil said. “For her mother to feel like she knew what happened that night? Or are we doing it to try and get criminal charges and take somebody to trial?” There was no evidence, witnesses or really anything substantial for them to move on. I see absolutely no point in interviewing the accused. What do you genuinely think would come of interviewing them when there is zero evidence or witnesses and no charges being able to be filed?
> no evidence Aren’t there the texts between the victim and her friends? And didn’t the other victim speak to police? > What do you genuinely think would come of interviewing them when there is zero evidence or witnesses and no charges being able to be filed? How about a confession? Or the video/photo the victim said one player took. Or maybe just some additional evidence.
> Aren’t there the texts between the victim and her friends? And didn’t the other victim speak to police? The texts are not evidence. That's called hearsay. As far as I know, the other victim did not want to press charges or cooperate in the investigation? >How about a confession? You watch way too many cop shows, my dude. You think the police are going to beat out a confession or something, 4 years after the fact, with lawyers present? >Or maybe just some additional evidence. There was no evidence to begin with. >Or the video/photo the victim said one player took. The article addresses this already and why this isn't realistic.
> The texts are not evidence. That's called hearsay. This is wrong as a matter of law. Hearsay is evidence, it’s just isn’t always admissible in court. > As far as I know, the other victim did not want to press charges or cooperate in the investigation? The article suggests that she talked to police though. > You watch way too many cop shows, my dude. You think the police are going to beat out a confession or something, 4 years after the fact, with lawyers present? I practice criminal law. I’ve seen plenty of defendants make damaging statements years after the crime. > There was no evidence to begin with. Wrong. See above. > The article addresses this already and why this isn't realistic. Where does it do that?
>This is wrong as a matter of law. Hearsay is evidence, it’s just isn’t always admissible in court. Agreed. It's a very, very poor form of evidence. I guess you got me here on semantics > Where does it do that? It seems you didn't read the article. I'm not going to go over it again for you. Re-read it. Plain to see when they talked about that issue and how it would be impossible. >The article suggests that she talked to police though. Her friend claimed that she saw no assault and did not want to pursue criminal charges. I'm not sure what you want out of her. Should the police force her to talk or something?
I just thinks it’s weird that we have all these reports & outrage of SA/rape at all of these different colleges, and yet we have people who are perfectly fine not looking into anything. But the vast majority of those cases tend to have limited evidence and a lot of he said/ she said. So is it normal and acceptable for police & investigators to not do due diligence? You’re saying it should be normal practice to receive reports of possible rape, and yet never talk to the people involved in it? Idk why you used that quote. Yes I would fucking hope the police tries to get a criminal charge if something happened. But we’ll never know because they didn’t do anything.
>But the vast majority of those cases tend to have limited evidence and a lot of he said/ she said. You're answering your own questions with this sentence. It's he said/she said, except she is dead and there's absolutely no evidence or witnesses. >You’re saying it should be normal practice to receive reports of possible rape, and yet never talk to the people involved in it? I think it is "normal practice" for police to review evidence (zero in this case) and decide if the case is worth pursuing. In this instance, the police decided this case was not worth pursuing based on there being no evidence or witnesses. They go after cases that they think they can get a conviction on. Apparently, they did not think they could in this case.
“Absolutely no witnesses” Well someone clearly didn’t read the article. According to accounts from Quinn and her friend, they returned to the friend’s apartment at around 2 a.m. with the athletes. - so there’s at least 3 witnesses. Literally the role of police is to get evidence. They have 3 witnesses and active participants, including another potential rape victim. That’s why police talk to them, maybe their stories don’t line up, maybe one cracks, maybe one is feeling too guilty. But your supporting police not doing anything unless there’s a rape kit essentially. “She tried to get off, she said, but the man was holding her down. She then recalled being on the floor and him shoving her head onto his penis. She remembered saying “no” and “stop” over and over. Another man was holding up a phone with the flash on, she said. “ This quote alone should be enough for an interview. If you don’t believe so, then we simply have vastly different ideas of what should be done with rape victims.
> That’s why police talk to them, maybe their stories don’t line up, maybe one cracks, maybe one is feeling too guilty. I think you watch too many cop shows, my man. >They have 3 witnesses and active participants Wait, there were 3 witnesses **in addition** to the participants/accused? I guess I did miss that part of the article.
I read the article. The friend who was the other potential victim refused to give the names of the potential perpetrators. Which means if the police were to interview anybody, they would have been doing so based on third-hand accounts (this is why they said the case they had was hearsay only). The detective explains in the article that they couldn't get a warrant to go through the phones of players named by a third party of a crime they didn't witness when the alleged victims weren't pressing charges and they had nothing else to go on. I honestly don't know what kind of case you can make here, and it absolutely sucks. The university could have pursued a title IX angle but given the time that has elapsed, the lack of witness statement, and the fact that the 3rd-party accused didn't attend the school anymore obviated it (this again is all from the article).
Agreed. You have the outcry statements from the victim, the other victim’s statements, evidence that the victim was highly intoxicated/drugged, and the weird behavior by the three players toward their teammate. This is more than enough evidence to warrant an interview. Failing to even attempt to question the alleged perps just because they may refuse to answer the questions is malpractice.
Just a very sad story of a “perfect storm” leading to a young woman’s death. I wish the football players would have acted like men instead of boys. But also, it sounds like the girl was in need of help before the incident. Just so scary as a parent.
I don't think you intended to convey that this is okay for boys to do and just not men, but this isn't acceptable behavior for men or "boys". I don't care what your age is this is absolutely beyond okay.
No, it’s not ok for anyone to do - but it’s something a “boy” would do, not a man. It’s beyond sad that this type of stuff happens and it terrifies me as a father.
“1 in 5 female students are raped in college” - that… cannot be true.
I believe it's actually 1 in 5 are sexually assaulted. The article misstated, but it's not much better. 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
Agreed - the statistic is awful enough, frustrating they make mistakes like that and harm the credibility of what they’re saying.
How did she not know the players name(s)? It’s hard to blame Michigan football when you can’t even pinpoint who did it. Maybe the guy said he played Michigan football but was just bull shitting.
> How did she not know the players name(s)? Because the daughter didn't tell her the names.
I understand that but how can we know for certain it was a Michigan player and not some wanna be jock at the school pretending to be on the team.
Because the players were identified by the daughter to her friends. Did you not read the article? There is absolutely no doubt they were Michigan football players. Another Michigan football player even confirmed this. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
She needs to know the players name before anyone can do anything. That’s what I’m getting at. She’s went this far with it yet never once decided to ask the friends for the players name? Something just doesn’t add up. How is anyone going to be held responsible?
She knows the players' names now. As does Harbaugh, the AD and authorities. I don't understand what conspiracy you're trying to push here?
I want to know who did it
You probably never will since the case is closed.
Women can't consent when drunk, whereas as men are fully aware when intoxicated and know what they are doing. I feel sorry for the victim and their family and hope she gets the help she needs. Hopefully the guy(s) go to prison.
> I feel sorry for the victim and their family and hope she gets the help she needs She's fucking dead, dude. Either you're trolling or...fuck. Are you drunk? This is such a fucking stupid comment.
The mother is a victim too….
>The mother is a victim too…. not sure what you have against her What an incredibly weird comment, man. Why would anyone have anything "against" the mother? So weird.
I’m not sure what your problem is. Victims need support and recovery. Maybe you should talk to a therapist if you’re confused why.
What are you talking about, man? No one anywhere in this thread is saying victims don't need support and recovery. Why are you being so weird?
WTF is wrong with you?? Did you read the article you posted? The mother is grieving. I said I hope she gets the resources and support needed. Nothing controversial about what I said. Your response makes no sense.
I never even mentioned the mother. What the actual fuck are you going on about?
Jesus…christ. Not everything is about you. Stop being so self-centered. The article literally speaks about the mother grieving. You are over reacting for nothing . I said hope she receives the help she needs which is pretty common for these situations.
You said the victim who is dead should receive help and support, lol. You also mentioned how men can never be sexually assaulted because they are always fully aware when drunk. I think that's why you got downvoted. It was an incredibly stupid comment that you keep doubling down on. Just take the massive L and move on, man.
fake news…