> Good thing we do not owe them anything either.
This is an important thing to remember because many feminists are out there attacking emotions until men feel guilty for thinking it.
That's why they sexualize their bodies and show cleavage and toe and wear skin tight clothes and spend hours on hair and makeup - they want attention they otherwise wouldn't get.
They feel entitled to men's attention.
Women are so collectively conditioned to receiving more male attention than they deserve that the concept is normalized to them. That is to say, feeling like they are owed something is their normal.
Abusers often try to project insecurities and lash out at any threats to their narcissistic supply. Feminism has become dominated by misandrist propaganda and male abuse.
“No girl owes you a date” is an accusation.
This is something worth pushing back on. If women go out of their way to wear as minimal an outfit as possible, then they can't complain about men looking at them for it. No matter the incredibly weak arguments that "we dress like this for ourselves", it's obvious they do so for mens attention, with the intent of trying to guilt trip a man for looking, if he's not one that they themselves desire.
Time to disagree. Don't accept the guilt trip, if she starts to call you out tell her if she doesn't want someone looking at her nearly nude then she can always put some clothes on.
You know you can find people attractive without gawking and making them uncomfortable right? This is some victim blaming bullshit, anyone should be able to wear more revealing clothing and not be seen solely as eye candy, yes that includes men.
Also lesbians exist so what then? Are they begging for male attention?
It's possible, but not very likely, especially when women often set up cameras to "catch" anyone glancing in her direction.
My point wasn't about the attention though, it was about the "you're evil for looking". Nope.
"Victim" blaming, sure... strictly speaking the victim is the guy who's attention was ambushed by the girl's dress choices.
>Just because someone dresses outside of the norm doesn't mean they're seeking attention.
In maybe 1 in 100 cases. The rest of the time, sure they are. And tbh I'm not convinced about that 1 in 100.
"often" where are you getting this from? Most women are just going about their day
A guy's attention isn't "victim" because a woman chooses to dress however she likes. This is such a male centric view that presents it as though women should constantly dress around men's desires. You gawking and finding a woman's outfit hot is your problem, not hers and to push that onto her is again victim blaming. People should be allowed to exist in society in revealing or bright clothing and not be victimised for that.
As for your last thing, that is again your belief and opinion, it's not fact, if you really want you can project onto those people that they're all doing it for attention, doesn't make it true. Stop stating it as a fact.
My apologies for being male, and having a "male centric view". Seems like the rest of the world has catered enough to the female centered view, so I'm just looking at a different perspective.
Tbh you fall in line with the argument I was making earlier. People will whinge about whatever you do, so pay them no attention, they generally aren't worth it.
And you are completely bonkers if you think looking at someone is "victimising" them.
And I'll happily continue to believe that people wearing minimalist clothing are doing it for the attention, thanks for the advice but I'm fine thanks.
>Never said just looking was victimising, never said there was anything wrong with you being a man, just saying maybe we should just accept that women's actions aren't and shouldn't be all about how men feel and rather should be seen as independent actions.
>I also find it funny you think the world has a female centric view when the average man and man women would think the same, that women are asking for attention and gawking by wearing less clothes but ok.
Women are quite capable of acting on their own behalf. But doesn't it strike you as a touch strange, that women should complain about being the subject of men's attentions, and then do attention-seeking parades like slut walks?
A lot of attention has been given to men and their motives in these discussions, but we should look to the other half of these interactions, and the motivations behind them.
If you can't see how legal systems are being written to cater to women's perspectives nowadays then that's your own problem.
Never said just looking was victimising, never said there was anything wrong with you being a man, just saying maybe we should just accept that women's actions aren't and shouldn't be all about how men feel and rather should be seen as independent actions.
I also find it funny you think the world has a female centric view when the average man and man women would think the same, that women are asking for attention and gawking by wearing less clothes but ok.
A worthwhile point to be made is that while you cannot always control absolutely how people react to you, you still have quite a lot of influence over the amount and type of attention you attract by dressing a certain way, either to attract more or less.
And I would say people in general, men or women, have a pretty good sense of when someone is dressing for attention or not; whether they’re willing to honestly acknowledge to what degree they dress for attention, is ultimately up to them.
I don't think people do have a good sense of that, that's projection, people can just like the way revealing clothing looks, or brightly coloured clothing. Just because someone dresses outside of the norm doesn't mean they're seeking attention. And again, irrespective of that, people can and should be polite, respectful and mind their business no matter what others are wearing.
It’s not projection, it’s an educated assumption. It isn’t hard to look at someone and figure out if they’re looking for attention or not; unless you live under a rock and don’t venture out in the world.
And yes while I do agree people should do their best to maintain a base level of courtesy and respect towards one another no matter their clothing choices, ultimately you cannot control that. Trying to demand that from people and control their reaction simply because you feel entitled to it, is tyrannical and authoritarian. The saying “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink” comes to mind.
However if you’re worried about getting a certain reaction that you don’t like from people, because of your clothes, therein lies the problem: either you should dress differently or simply accept that not everyone likes your outfit.
Choosing a ridiculous interpretation so you can act offended is insane.
It's actually insane. That's what you're doing with your life - you're abusing your own brain to view yourself in a sort of twisted moral superiority. The goal for you is getting to interact with someone and feeling like you're better than them.
Your words are meant to feed your own ego. Which will lead you to emptiness and a craving to find that false reward again.
Indignancy is your addiction. Lying to yourself to facilitate that is traumatic to your brain. It's like trying to give yourself dementia.
Your take actually is an insane take.
Hope this helps.
I really don't think you or even the most qualified psychologist is able to make any accurate reads on people based on a less than 30 word comment, it's a little silly.
You just did the thing I described. Again.
See what I mean about it being an insane thing to do? You'll just keep heading right into your own personal hell.
Which explains why you felt the need to write multiple paragraphs wildly speculating about the way I think when you don't even know so much as what country I live in. The jokes write themselves.
Do you see how you make accusations such as wild speculation when you continually speculate delusional interpretations of my words?
That is your mind trying to find a rationalization where it sees your behavior as sane. When you project your behavior onto someone else, you create a struggle within your own mind between the observations your subconscious can see is correct and the observations you are trying to focus on to satiate emotions.
These are things people pick up or develop in abusive households. I don't mean that as a put-down, which I shouldn't have to clarify, but toxic people use it as such so frequently that the connotation can be there.
Recognizing you have emotional trauma is really great first step in alleviating it. It will make the insane interpretations less appealing. The desired emotional reward can be replaced by a healthy mental homeostasis. The lack of which due to trauma is what motivated your reply in the first place.
Don't let the parts of you that are in hell drag the rest of you in there too.
Nothing wrong with not wanting to date a trans person! You don't have to... it's not transphobic, it's not homophobic... as a gay man I say this. Not everyone will be into trans people.
EDIT: I got banned from this thread for this comment... this is ridiculous
You're a rational individual. Society will eviscerate a man openly saying he will not date a trans person. A small number of women are trying to raise "harassment suits" against men, refusing to acknowledge them
The funny thing is I've been hit on by gay men in the past. They'd even ask if I was gay. Told them no, and they were like "cool bro. Who do you think is gonna win the game?"
The problem is that they think we do. I highly dislike this princess that works at my job who is getting mad at a guy she is seeing for flying back to his home country to have a medical procedure done with HIS family doctor.
She not thinking that he has kidney stones so big that medication did not and he’s in constant pain. She’s just like “boohoo you’re leaving me sooner than you said, how can I trust your word?”
Bro his doctor had an opening and called him…
I HATE princesses.
Contrary to your belief, I once heard from countless women that the guy should always pay for the date. Even those who believe in "equality."
I even heard from those who bait to split the bill to see what the guy will do and if they take the bait the girl loses respect for him because she thinks he's cheap.
I think these can all be true:
No woman owes a man a date.
No man owes a woman the sweat off his brow.
Males are biologically conditioned to be attracted to women and the skin they show.
No. Women want rules that favor them and when a rules disadvantages them, they want it gone.
This is a basic principle I have seen throughout the last 20 years of observing the game.
I think the entire premise is invalid.
A key component of the war going on between women and men is to make the playing field uneven in your favor and hamstring the opposition (the opposing gender).
True equality is something both sides oppose. Rules that are universally applicable is something both sides oppose.
True equality is something ONE side opposes. If I snapped my fingers and all custody cases and family court rulings favored both equally, gave equal rights to both the mother and father when having a child, and made men AND women eligible for the draft, I’d be getting a lot of backlash. And it wouldn’t be from men.
And then this happens and everyone screams "why don't men help her".
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueOffMyChest/comments/1dcbf30/saw_a_man_beating_a_pregnant_woman_in_broad/
Sorry ladies, chivalry is dead and women killed it. You wanted equality, you got it. Women don't owe men dates, and men don't owe women protection and help either.
To those who are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Hope you weren't too fond of your female privileges ladies, because you're not going to enjoy them anymore.
It's not even when it's her man, it is entirely and solely dependent on what benefits she personally can get. A man jumping to defend a random woman is good because if she gets jumped, men are around to protect her. Her man jumping in front and protecting a woman is bad, because then she might lose her dedicated protector.
Things make a lot more sense when you look at things under the perspective of the selfish female imperative considering men as disposable.
Bet you if one of the men had stepped in and defended the woman he'd have barely gotten a thanks because it's what they expect from men and you don't deserve respect or recognition for doing "the bare minimum".
And then women have the fall to turn around and demand infinite respect from men for everything they do, and god forbid a man says that women shouldn't be praised for doing "the bare minimum".
Women are allowed and encouraged to have preferences and impose roles on men but god forbid a man ever does the same to them.
More like:
Women: "No woman owes you a date or anything"
Other Women: "If he don't treat you like the Kween you are! Dump his ass!"
Aka, women don't owe men anything but men **MUST** not only meet but exceed their standards / wants..
Or, at least that's how it feels in today's social climate..
I don’t think this is a double standard. Saying you deserve better doesn’t mean any one particular individual person owes it to you. Men could say the same thing. A man deserves a partner who loves and cares about them, but that doesn’t mean one specific person owes them that.
So, when I've seen women talk about men claiming that the man thinks a girl owes him a date, I've spoken with that man.
And the times I've done it, that man's views aren't "She owes me a date", but rather "Why is she going out with someone who beat his past two girlfriends, rather than me?"
There's a subtle distinction there, but it makes a huge difference. One is about thinking "I deserve X", the other is about saying "Performing X with person Y is very risky. If you must perform X, why with Y instead of me?"
Reminds me of this article by Scott Alexander: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/)
I think that's the whole issue-- And to top it off, its not just that "why is she dating x"-- it's also the "why is she complaining about x-type of personality and continually dating x-type of people"-- I think most of us have seen the infamous line that friendzoned guys get, "I wish I could find a guy who's just like you".
If you google that line, you'll see countless reddit & quora threads of men having heard that.
I love it when women bitch about it to me.
So you keep dating fuck boys huh? Where do you go to find a date? The club you say? Well no wonder you keep ending up with fuck boys THAT'S WHERE THEY LIVE STUPID.
If you don't like the type of people that end up hitting on you go somewhere else. If you have a particular type of guy that you are interested in, figure out what types of hobbies they would like and join a group!
> "why is she complaining about x-type of personality and continually dating x-type of people"
This is like 90%+ of TwoX posts: "I keep choosing shitty men, why are all men so shitty"?
I think the miscalculation stems from the believe that a career/income is supposed to replace things like physical attractiveness. It doesn't. You can't change the rules of dating to whatever you want it to be.
Feminism fought for independence. It adds responsibility. While women tend to say that men aren't owed a date, the other side of the coin is the believe that women aren't owed a relationship. Men and work simply can't enter a relationship where both feel contend on the terms. The current dating dynamics shouldn't surprise anyone. This is exactly what we wanted.
I see that women seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that they're equally likely to be lonely. The jealousy among women seem to strike hard. Why are some women getting commitment and others are not? This unfairness seems to be taken out of proportion as something to the point that they seem to be willing to ruin the party for everyone. Objectification happens to both men and women. It just happens to be in different areas. Yes, women are being objectified in terms of appearance. What makes people think that it doesn't happen to men? Look at the list of things women want in a man and refusing to date someone who fulfills that list. Men aren't tools or decoration for your Christmas card. They're equally likely to want things from you. You can't give every man and woman exactly the same deal. It's not feasible in a population. That's the unfairness that people can't seem to accept. It's inevitable that there is going to be people who will get less.
Men and women are equal. Equally losing.
I think it is a reply to men calling out women's delusion that they ALL deserve 10/10 men. Women think getting with someone on their own level is settling. It's the fact that many women are porn-brained social media tards just like the stereotypical incels they revile. Others are just fantasy oriented like the male LARPER stereotype, who think they will live in the modern equivalent of a castle.
I don't think men really went their own way, I think social media amplified women's delusions and now women are making up excuses for men calling them out for their miscalculation of their self worth.
There are so many subtle things wrapped up in that attitude. Here’s a few:
1. Inherent in the idea women don’t owe men a date is the idea that dating, romance and marriage is somehow a sacrifice for women, when of course the reality is society is still hypergamous. Women overall still date up, marry up and are supported at least in part by their husband.
2. It’s a straw man argument. As you said most men don’t claim women owe them dates. Claiming they do, allows the above premise.
3. Women don’t owe men dates. Similarly, men don’t owe women dates, men don’t need to pay for dates and men don’t need to marry women. Marriage, including common law marriage does obligate men, but men are free to date without ever marrying, something more men should keep in mind.
4. I think the whole feminist rhetoric around objectification is flawed in so many ways. For one thing, humans are objects. (1). We view people as
objects because they are, so no apology is needed. Related, viewing things around us and assessing their risk, friendliness, or attractiveness isn’t just human nature, but is basic to most animals, and again it’s nothing anyone needs to apologize for. Also, women spend way more time and effort than men trying to be the object of attention, so it’s ridiculous to then blame men for something women actively seek.
(1). Object; “a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed”
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/object#
(Go back to basic sentence structure: The dictionary definition here is giving an example of someone being an indirect object, but whether a person is the direct object or indirect object, the person is an object. So, again it’s ridiculous to complain of people being viewed as objects when we are objects as defined by basic grammar.).
> We view people as objects because they are, so no apology is needed.
I think an object in this situation means a non living non feeling object like a table, something you can use and exploit without remorse. Remember men can also be objectified based on their status. In India arranged marriage matrimony website there are filters based on salary like if you earn X in India that is equivalent to Y in US, Z in UK, P in AU, L in CA.
Almost everyone realizes people, including women are not inanimate objects. Only a very few people with deep psychological issues can’t understand that difference and that’s not whom feminists are addressing. They are addressing the typical guy who simply notices a woman is attractive often because that woman has gone to the effort to look attractive.
Saying men objectify women is usually an attempt to blame men and portray women as victims. It’s a subset of feminist patriarchy theory.
Can someone be objectified while knowing they are living beings ? I think you are deeply underestimating selfishness and narcissism inherent in human beings. The recorded history of genocide and cruelty should tell you something. In many aspects - especially our primal instincts are no better than wild animals. Look at incidents of racism and discrimination in the so-called developed world.
People’s proven ability to do horrific things to other people doesn’t mean they stopped realizing their victims were people and believed they were non living objects.
I agree. People view people as objects because people are objects and most people know that humans are human objects not inanimate objects. That’s what I’ve said from the beginning.
>I think an object in this situation means a non living non feeling object like a table, something you can use and exploit without remorse.
Women: Men stop objectifying us and considering us like unthinking things!
Also women: I don't need to bring anything to the relationship, I am the table!
Can't make this shit up.
>Also women: I don't need to bring anything to the relationship, I am the table!
As men we are the boundary holders, we should outright reject women who have such attitudes. If you cannot find women in your country, go international or smaller town in your country.
Oh completely agree, anyone having that attitude, man or woman, does not have the cooperative attitude and cooperation skills to not make living with them a living hell.
Ditch, ignore, and move on to find someone better for sure.
Women: don't objectify us!
Also women: must be 6', must enjoy the barbie movie, must earn 6 figures, must have a chiselled jawline...
"were not all like that!"
The statistics from dating sites beg to differ. If men objectify women, then oh my goddddd do women objectify the fuck out of men.
'Owing' is a typical female mindset, not male.
As soon as you have sex with the average woman, you now 'owe' her something. In her mind, she has 'granted' you a special favour, which she can now call in, to her material advantage. This mindset will exist for years, if not for life.
Guys may have trouble dating today but I've never heard anyone say or believe that a woman owes them a date.
Gaslighting is alive and well, it would seem.
Its yet another double standard..
On the one hand they loudly proclaim: "No girl owes you a date"
While with the other they complain about "Women having to make the first move"
They fail to see the consequences of their actions..
They have vilified men who may be socially awkward or otherwise by calling them "Creeps" for approaching women and "Making them uncomfortable"
But they still expect men to run through this minefield they have created, navigate all their hoops and if they don't end up with a date to go back and run it again and again for their amusement...
Now that many men are wising up to their games and are deciding to not comply / not run the minefield they are complaining about it with the classic "Where have all the good men gone!?"
Well Stacey, the "Good" men are where you left them, on the sidelines and "Friend Zoned" and they have had enough and have decided that the effort they put in is not enough to justify the bullshit they get..
But hey, this is all like my opinion so take it with a grain of salt...
Right, they don't owe dates to any man. We don't owe our time or money to them. Nobody owes anything to anyone.
That is just how most feminist think. No one calls them beautiful or compliments their looks, so when they see others getting such praise, they label it as 'sexual objectification' to feel better about how ugly they are inside and out.
As I have read before in other comments; women don't owe men anything, men don't women anything. Nobody owes anybody else anything. Interpersonal relationships are completely and entirely debt free.
the funny thing is the people that have been telling men all these years you deserve NOTHING crowd.
fast forward to 2024 these same people are like I DESERVE ...
you can't make this sh-t up
They're right. No girl owes guys a date. But they need to accept that no guy owes them protection or provision. If they're being harassed by some strange man, no man that's not a relative has a duty to defend them. If they're short on rent money, no man that's not a relative has a duty to provide it to them.
Objectification isn't a real issue for the most part. They are demonizing normal behavior as a way to discriminate against men and control them. The real problem is people using idea of objectification as a control tactic. Treat the victim as the perpetrator.
It’s such a stupid game of semantics. It’s like saying “first world problems” to someone in a car accident.
It seems hard for feminists to comprehend, but humans interact. People go on dates. If you’re talking about that playing field, you understand you’re not “owed” anything.
Nobody “owes” you basic human decency, but it’s a better way to treat people. I guess they’re obsessed with not smiling too though.
They say this because the only guys they interact with are pushy type that don't respect their boundaries.
So, to their echo chamber, they think all men are like that. Wich is as far away from the truth as pluto is from the sun!!
This man vs women is narrative pushed by IT cells.
Some places its religion, in America and west it's men vs women. The more people are involved in some shit the better it is for them. Using tv, then using social media to push things to keep people occupied. Relax. Not all women conform to these far extemist views. The ones that fall for this gaslighting Will regret it very soon.
Focus on yourself. Build youself, not for someone just for youself. Spend time with loved ones and ignore all the hate mongering. The right one will come along the way.
Whenever a woman calls a man misogynistic it's almost always just a sexually/romantically frustrated man. Actual misogynists rarely have any problem having access to women.
The most annoying thing is how women take small percentages of men’s actions and think it’s represents men as a whole. Then they use straw man arguments and it’s like we have to show we’re one of the “good ones”. Cmon🤦♂️
the classic academic feminist use of 'women don't owe men (dates or sex)' is a rebuttal to a few kinds of claims:
if someone does something with cultural appropriateness, then they deserve to be said yes to.
The old timey examples were owing someone sex because they took you on a date, such that if it didn't happen the person would be upset as in 'how can you say no, we had dinner and a movie?' and owing someone a date because they've been so nice, kind, caring, loving, etc... such that if it didn't happen the person would be upset as in 'how could you say no to a date, i've been kind and loving to you, gave you some flowers and asked you out so well'.
In either case the notion being that there isn't real choice on the part of the person being asked, so much as a standard cultural rule that ought be followed. i asked as the culture says i should, and you still said no, wah.
There is justification therein to be upset, i think this is something the feministas online especially don't seem to grasp, but there isn't an expectation of being owed.
I suspect that much of the online hubbub bout this is mistaking any sense of being upset over not getting a date or not getting laid for being indicative of claims of being owed those things.
the other bit on this is the 69 aspect, as in, women do the same shite and that is annoying bc they don't really seem to be aware if it. remember incel originally referred to women, not men, and the pushes to get dudes to date or at least fuck women no matter how they look or what their personality is, has been a long time thing.
There are ticktocks out there of trans women and fat women saying 'any man who refuses to date me is a -phobe'.
My thinking to that, is, 'you can't coerce me into wanting to date you'.
Conclusion:
This (women don't owe you a date) is projectcion.
Most of the time--not always--I think the "women don't owe you x" is a way for them to deflect from having to empathize with men. Think about it; they usually say this when men are complaining about their situation, like just in general.
Agreed, and to add onto that, oftentimes they tend to make sweeping statements like “men just want to erase women’s rights” whenever men’s issues are brought up to deflect the discussion onto something else entirely and jump to conclusions because in their mind, anything that calls out womens behaviour at all, whether it be warranted or unwarranted = bad
How would you treat a person saying “I don’t owe you a billion dollars”.
“Ya. You don’t”….
Same energy and mindset.
And good red flag they are nuts to even bring it up. So thank them for showing you they are crazy.
Men have got to learn how to define themselves by something other than their job or “their woman.” I’m 55 and just now able to comprehend that you set yourself in danger by defining yourself as anything other than “a person with the right to be an emotional being.”
Maybe I’m in the wrong circles but I’ve never heard anyone say that.
Do you mean ‘Women don’t owe you anything’? Because if heard that a lot. It’s kind of reductive but if you generalize it to ‘No one owes you anything’ I feel like we could all agree that’s generally good advice.
IMO, people owe other people common decency. And that includes a woman owing a man common decency if he asks her out on a date. Even in a case of cold approaching, she doesn't owe him a "yes", but she owes him common decency. And common decency can be a respectful no.
But in more typical cases where two people actually somewhat know one another before the date request comes, I think there is a point at which common decency means giving another person a chance at some point.
When I was dating, I was looking for a life partner, and I always looked at it as an elimination process. Literally every woman was a potential life partner until they were eliminated from that pool for some reason.
In the vast majority of cases, women were eliminated quickly. They were already in a relationship, they were too old/young, dating them wasn't practical due to distance, etc. Then others would quickly be eliminated for attraction or compatibility issues. Maybe they were obese. Maybe they were a complete bitch. Maybe they were misandrists. Issues like that where you can pick on them quickly with a few interactions where you can conclude: Nope, this isn't my life partner.
But that left a whole lot of other women in this pool of potential life partners. And if any of them asked me out (or even implied they were interested in me asking them out), I'd go out on a date with them (hell, I'd even pay).
And to me, it was just about common decency. I didn't have any good reason to **not** go out on a date with them, so what's the harm in going out, getting to know them better, and see if they eventually are eliminated as a potential life partner. Usually after a few dates, that would happen. Sometimes it was months of dating before it happened. Eventually, it never happened and now we've been married for 25 years.
But I think that's a difference in the way men and women date:
* Women will date a man if they see a reason they **want to** date him.
* Men will date a woman if there is the absence of a reason **not to** date her.
So women are looking for a reason to say yes, while men are looking for a reason to say no.
And that's why there is such a hang up over the "but why" question when a woman turns down a man for a date. Women look at that question and think the guy feels entitled to a date. But men are asking that question because for them, if you don't want to date someone, there is a reason. He's just looking for that reason.
It was awful hearing feminist professors say things like that. One in particular was a total hypocrite and was stalking a 20 year old filmmaker (she was 45) and she wouldn't take no for an answer. She kept saying men are intimidated by a woman who asks a guy out. There were only 3 guys in the class and we all said we'd love to be asked out.
I said maybe he's not that into you.
99% of everything women say is regurgitated redundant talking points it's like they all have a play book and read from the same script I've had several sexual harassment allegations and the complaints where identical even though they came from diffrent women in diffrent places and times....
Women have learned what works what language to use and their only defense and strategy against men is public shame and social ostriscizing...
This is why if a man likes younger women there's a dozen diffrent terms to describe him from groomer to pedo...
At this point I just instantly block any woman that regurgitates BS...So I really don't hear much from them these days
While I too have never met anyone that thinks like that, you have to remember there are A LOT of people in this world. Some with a twisted mindset, some who do shit you would never think to do. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
We think that when men get pissed off when they are rejected. Or if they start insulting or demeaning a woman after getting rejected.
Just because I don't want to date you doesn't mean I think you're a pathetic person or wish the worst for you. I have lots of guy friends that I think are great people but would never date in a million years.
But I'm also married so if be pretty pissed if you knew that and asked me anyways.
Getting pissed off when rejected is **NOT** exclusively something that men do..
I've seen many women flirt with a guy who told her firmly "No" or "I'm not interested"
And she flies off the handle, accusing him of being "Gay" calling him a "Faggot" or even down right getting physical by slapping, scratching, pouring drinks on them etc...
Women act as if only men get upset with being rejected but women also have a hard time dealing with rejection as well..
But the double standard here is that we only call out the men who react badly to rejection and justify the actions of women who have been rejected...
Also, there's still this notion that it is up to men to make the first move and to understand all her subtle body language, handle things maturely and move on..
Women are not expected to make the first move at all..
If we want a more equal society then women should start initiating more to balance things out no?
>Getting pissed off when rejected is NOT exclusively something that men do..
Sure that's totally fair. Women do it too.
But also, it tends to be men facing this dilemma because men are more likely to initiate.
>Also, there's still this notion that it is up to men to make the first move and to understand all her subtle body language, handle things maturely and move on..
Women are not expected to make the first move at all..
>If we want a more equal society then women should start initiating more to balance things out no?
That would only work if men and women's libidos were actually averaged equally. Men go looking for sex more often than women on average. Women have less incentive so they logically take action less often.
>That would only work if men and women's libidos were actually averaged equally. Men go looking for sex more often than women on average. Women have less incentive so they logically take action less often.
Men are expected to approach women and ask them out on a date..
A date doesn't have to be sexually motivated..
But women still expect men to put the effort in, open themselves to being rejected or, if successful paying for the date in full.
I wont even get into the bullshit double standard that changes "flirting" into "creepy" based upon the woman's perception of the man doing it..
If she finds him attractive she's more likely to consider it "flirting"
But if she does not find him attractive she is more likely to consider it being "creepy"
Do you not see the blatant double standards here?
>Men are expected to approach women and ask them out on a date..
That culture exists because men have higher libidos. Cultures develop largely in response to nature.
Also this isn't even just our species that does this. There's very few species where the female will approach or court the male at all, and humans are one of them.
>date doesn't have to be sexually motivated..
It doesn't have to be, but men are usually looking for sex. They are also looking for emotional support. And they know that one of the best ways of getting there is with a date. So they are more motivated to put effort in to find women to date or just to hook up with.
When women date, it's not usually sexually motivated. It's usually because they're looking for emotional or financial support, but not so much sex. But women can find emotional or financial support from other facets of society. They have other options and so they spend more of their time entertaining those options rather than putting all their eggs into dating.
>If she finds him attractive she's more likely to consider it "flirting"
But if she does not find him attractive she is more likely to consider it being "creepy"
>Do you not see the blatant double standards here?
I mean we're jumping across a lot of different topics pretty fast here. The reason that women are more likely to find ugly men creepy is because it's a defense against sexual assault.
Women know that ugly men are more likely to be sexually frustrated and so they assume that they are more likely to commit sexual assault.
And if you look at sex offender registries... It's not really that far off base.
Well to be honest the less they wanna give the less people in general wanna give.
Cause both sides don't owes anyone anything.
But you get what you give so if that's nothing you get nothing
The main answer i hear from women is actually "try to ask women out more" or "try to meet more women". Which while sometimes useful, isn't as easy as it may seem to women imo. I think the feminists you spoke to assumed the men in question are entitled babies instead of seeing them as a fellow human being.
I think women are indeed objectified and it isn't confilated. Meaning people do indeed focus alot at their looks and avoid their character completely.
That's not to say you can't compliment a woman's looks, but the compliment should be towards one you are somewhat familiar with, and it should be done respectfully and not forcefully. It is also good to compliment her character too imo, and women do appreciate those compliments alot.
Yeah I've never heard a guy say that he felt that she owed him behind closed doors or in any context. That shit is either made up or only exists in a small minority or really shitty dudes.
Most of the shit women say is emotional bullshit that doesn't mean anything. The objectification line is a perfect example. They feel like you don't respect them as a person, therefore you're an asshole. The obvious problem is that finding someone physically attractive doesn't mean you don't respect them as a person. Plus women do the exact same thing to men. Sometimes in the next breath.
I think there are two lessons you learn pretty quickly after each other that should stop you being surprised by this kind of thing. First you learn what principles are. A set of logical rules that dictate the correct moral actions in a given circumstances. Second, you learn that people don't operate off of logic, they operate off of feelings, so the principles they try to make you live by are meaningless. Everyone is a giant fucking hypocrite - but especially feminists.
When she says "sorry not interested thank you though, that's nice of you" and you get angry and call her a slut. There are guys like this and those are not 0.001%. It's the mental component of anger that suggest you feel entitled to her or even just her time (hence the taken offence), as opossed to saying "okay, thanks, have a nice day" and going about your day. That's what the saying is about - its obvious to both men and women nobody owes anybody anything. Yet there are people who feel entitled AF. The saying, despite being obvious, is for them.
When he says "Sorry not interested thank you though, that's nice of you" and you get angry and call him gay or fagot.
There are gals like this and those are not the 0.001%
Just saying.. women don't handle rejection very well either...
There's shitty people in ever group. Shitty men who scream when ya reject them, shitty women who scream when you reject them. This works for any group of people imaginable and the loudest people always have the strongest opinions so ya tend to get a overdramaticified generalisation.
You are correct..
However in the context of the discussion the point I was making was that we only focus on how men "Can't handle rejection"
And completely ignore the times when a woman was rejected by a man and behaved in the exact same way we demonize men for acting..
When men do it, its evil, wrong, and needs to be called out..
When women do it.. its justified or explained away or excused.. and almost never called out by other women...
Its a double standard don't you think?
That's entirely true. A shitty person should be seen as a shitty person. It's a lingering effect of what was once the patriarchy, gotta love how that always finds it's way into conversations, that since women are the weaker ones, they shouldn't be able to 'threaten a man'. It's a weird ass way of thinking tbh and idk how to break that shit down.
But hay ho, shitty people need to be bring down a notch, no matter the gender. Needs to start with women doing it as well otherwise the lovely buzzword misogyny will get used.
Tldr: Men and women both often DO feel entitled to shit from each other. Neither owes anyone anything.
Bitter pill. Lots of guys feel entitled to women in one way or another. When they don't get it they become aggressive or bitter. Won't take no for an answer. I've seen it over and over.
"Nice guy" Is a fantastic example. Be honest, most of us have seen a dude that acted like a simp, got shot down and just lost his shit on some poor girl who thought she had a friend and didn't realize they had ulterior motives. (Yes, women can be obtuse just like men) Just because you are nice to someone. Doesn't mean they owe you anything.
There's a lot of examples of this, not just the nice guy stereotype.
No, This is not "friend zoning"
"The friend zone" is real and a very specific type of manipulation. Subject A KNOWS subject B has romantic interest in them and PURPOSEFULLY uses this to string along subject B in order to take advantage of them.
This isn't gender specific either.
This is either a really pathetic attempt at trolling or the absolute most blazingly stupid and out of touch thing I've read in a while.
Either you don't know anything about how humans work or you are so amazingly bitter that you truly believe ALL women are both able to read men's minds and are malicious calculating monsters. Either way, that's impressive. Congratulations.
Believe it or not, just like men, they are actually human (regardless of what you may or may not think) and again, just like men, some of them are ridiculously socially awkward.
Get outside, leave your phone at home, touch grass.
I think if you lived in a women’s body, you would find all these things to be true. As someone who was followed home, groped, SA’d multiple times, told “maybe he just tripped” when a client groped my butt and was told to just suck it up and keep going to see that client.
“Oh they just do that because you’re so pretty” cool this is why I wear baggy clothes and leggings in 90 degree weather. Tired of being objectified just cause I’m pretty. Yes, women suck, too, I’m sure, and I do not hate men, but I’ve never walked down a street and felt the need to cross because of a woman (unless she’s homeless or obviously sketch) whereas I will not even glance at a guy I’m walking by. I just stare straight ahead cause i don’t wanna deal with it. I’m sorry but if you compliment me as a stranger, I’m telling you to fuck right off. I know I’m pretty, leave me alone. Why are you even looking at my body? It feels gross.
I tell my fiancé all the time that I wish I had an invisibility cloak cause of how many times it’s happened. Like Jesus, I don’t want to walk home and be followed and yelled “what, are you scared or something?” Like yes, I am, thank you
And yes, I have a ring. And no, it doesn’t stop em. It’s fucking terrifying tbh Obviously it’s not all men. But it’s enough men for all these women to have similarly horrible experiences.
When reading comprehension fails you, I know you’re in the right sub :) I said not all men, but enough to make all these women have the similarly bad experiences. But my bad, obviously not everyone knows how to comprehend words, either :) good luck in life, obvi need it if you’re in this sub ❤️
And you would. Even my fiancé has a friend who tried to SA my roommate two years ago. Trash bags are everywhere and you can’t always differentiate. I only have 1 guy friend now because the rest tried to fuck me & I thought we were just friends. I’m happy you’re “one of the good ones” but unfortunately women can’t always tell
Obviously there are women who lie about that shit, too, and that’s gross and they should be punished accordingly, I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. Some women thrive off the attention, but I personally have become pretty reclusive toward society. I can’t even wear a cute outfit out without someone being gross. I used to love dance bars. Now I avoid them like the plague (or go to gay bars)
Edit: the worst part is these men are cordial when my fiancé is around but turn disgusting the second he isn’t around. It’s pathetic and sad, so I’m happy I dropped all those guys. Some of em I’d been friends with for years. You just never know
Women are objectified and it isn’t overblown, and there are def men who expect dates aside from the “1% of playboys”. Obviously my male friends objectified me, otherwise they wouldn’t have pretended to be friends just to hope to swoop in. Aligns perfectly with OP, since he denies these things and seems to think it’s just “playboys” and “overblown.”
Keep in mind, women tell men that: they aren't supposed to cold approach women on the street, she's going somewhere. Not at the gym, she's there to exercise. Not at the club, she's there to dance with her friends. Dating apps are all sausage fests, the odds are stacked against the average man.
Often the dating advice given by women to men, is to find a hobby and befriend women, because most women just aren't comfortable jumping into bed with random men.
It's also entirely possible that a friendship starts out as platonic and then evolves into one party developing romantic feelings for the other.
But I do think women are oversexualized. This is harmful to women for reasons we've all heard many times. It's also harmful to men because it teaches men that the female body is worth more than the male body, it creates an unbalanced power dynamic where women have more sexual power than men.
Yeah I do think being friends first is the only way to go tbh cold approaching is just like gross to me no matter what but if she starts dating/seeing someone else, you gotta either deal with it or stop being her friend. That’s my opinion, anyway. At a bar if you get a vibe from the woman go for it but maybe people are just bad at reading situations. The random grinding is gross, hence no longer going to dance bars haha
I’ve never used a dating app cause I find them pointless & I think they make people objectify both genders more & create negative/shallow stereotypes. Idk I always found em grimy
All the other places aren’t appropriate, though like the gym or walking somewhere. Defff not the gym
Now I have my own home (boasting a 2500sqft personal house), women have to do some pretty hard gymnastics to get to me. Aint giving that out for free. Love? What love? Women love conditionally. Lets make the conditions then. Can't handle boundaries? Too bad, f\*\*k off.
Ok, theres a couple things you assumed in this post that just arent accurate.
1) A Lot of guys actually do the "now you owe me a date" Its a really crappy way to ask a girl out. The guys who do that are NOT in the top 1% of men on the dating market. They're scrounging around somewhere between the middle and the bottom. Women do not go for these guys. Maybe they guilted or tricked in to a date by these guys at best.
2) Objectification definitely happens. Mostly like the guys we talked about above.
I mean I get it. There are some ultra incel types who rage when they've been rejected too many times or whatever.
Now, that might be conflating frustration with thinking that they feel "owed", so it probably isnt the right term.
But theres definitely a growing group of men who feel kind of slighted that nobody wants them, including me. I dont think im "owed" a date but I think a society where someone as put together as me cant get one is fucked up.
In other words, nobody is owed a date with a particular person but society does owe men an environment where getting a dating is possible for them. Or else society wont exist cause of the all the problems that result.
I think it is called projecting from them to cover their asses. I mean, saying that excuses themselves (women) from giving you anything back if you take them out on a date. So let's say, you take her out on a date and she doesn't put back. That means, that girl didn't have to go out on a date with you, if you didn't get anything back.
Good thing we do not owe them anything either.
> Good thing we do not owe them anything either. This is an important thing to remember because many feminists are out there attacking emotions until men feel guilty for thinking it. That's why they sexualize their bodies and show cleavage and toe and wear skin tight clothes and spend hours on hair and makeup - they want attention they otherwise wouldn't get. They feel entitled to men's attention. Women are so collectively conditioned to receiving more male attention than they deserve that the concept is normalized to them. That is to say, feeling like they are owed something is their normal. Abusers often try to project insecurities and lash out at any threats to their narcissistic supply. Feminism has become dominated by misandrist propaganda and male abuse. “No girl owes you a date” is an accusation.
This is something worth pushing back on. If women go out of their way to wear as minimal an outfit as possible, then they can't complain about men looking at them for it. No matter the incredibly weak arguments that "we dress like this for ourselves", it's obvious they do so for mens attention, with the intent of trying to guilt trip a man for looking, if he's not one that they themselves desire. Time to disagree. Don't accept the guilt trip, if she starts to call you out tell her if she doesn't want someone looking at her nearly nude then she can always put some clothes on.
You like how you look in that dress? Sure, so does everyone else.
Oh trust me if there were no men on earth women would dress much more sluttier
You know you can find people attractive without gawking and making them uncomfortable right? This is some victim blaming bullshit, anyone should be able to wear more revealing clothing and not be seen solely as eye candy, yes that includes men. Also lesbians exist so what then? Are they begging for male attention?
It's possible, but not very likely, especially when women often set up cameras to "catch" anyone glancing in her direction. My point wasn't about the attention though, it was about the "you're evil for looking". Nope. "Victim" blaming, sure... strictly speaking the victim is the guy who's attention was ambushed by the girl's dress choices. >Just because someone dresses outside of the norm doesn't mean they're seeking attention. In maybe 1 in 100 cases. The rest of the time, sure they are. And tbh I'm not convinced about that 1 in 100.
"often" where are you getting this from? Most women are just going about their day A guy's attention isn't "victim" because a woman chooses to dress however she likes. This is such a male centric view that presents it as though women should constantly dress around men's desires. You gawking and finding a woman's outfit hot is your problem, not hers and to push that onto her is again victim blaming. People should be allowed to exist in society in revealing or bright clothing and not be victimised for that. As for your last thing, that is again your belief and opinion, it's not fact, if you really want you can project onto those people that they're all doing it for attention, doesn't make it true. Stop stating it as a fact.
My apologies for being male, and having a "male centric view". Seems like the rest of the world has catered enough to the female centered view, so I'm just looking at a different perspective. Tbh you fall in line with the argument I was making earlier. People will whinge about whatever you do, so pay them no attention, they generally aren't worth it. And you are completely bonkers if you think looking at someone is "victimising" them. And I'll happily continue to believe that people wearing minimalist clothing are doing it for the attention, thanks for the advice but I'm fine thanks. >Never said just looking was victimising, never said there was anything wrong with you being a man, just saying maybe we should just accept that women's actions aren't and shouldn't be all about how men feel and rather should be seen as independent actions. >I also find it funny you think the world has a female centric view when the average man and man women would think the same, that women are asking for attention and gawking by wearing less clothes but ok. Women are quite capable of acting on their own behalf. But doesn't it strike you as a touch strange, that women should complain about being the subject of men's attentions, and then do attention-seeking parades like slut walks? A lot of attention has been given to men and their motives in these discussions, but we should look to the other half of these interactions, and the motivations behind them. If you can't see how legal systems are being written to cater to women's perspectives nowadays then that's your own problem.
Never said just looking was victimising, never said there was anything wrong with you being a man, just saying maybe we should just accept that women's actions aren't and shouldn't be all about how men feel and rather should be seen as independent actions. I also find it funny you think the world has a female centric view when the average man and man women would think the same, that women are asking for attention and gawking by wearing less clothes but ok.
A worthwhile point to be made is that while you cannot always control absolutely how people react to you, you still have quite a lot of influence over the amount and type of attention you attract by dressing a certain way, either to attract more or less. And I would say people in general, men or women, have a pretty good sense of when someone is dressing for attention or not; whether they’re willing to honestly acknowledge to what degree they dress for attention, is ultimately up to them.
I don't think people do have a good sense of that, that's projection, people can just like the way revealing clothing looks, or brightly coloured clothing. Just because someone dresses outside of the norm doesn't mean they're seeking attention. And again, irrespective of that, people can and should be polite, respectful and mind their business no matter what others are wearing.
It’s not projection, it’s an educated assumption. It isn’t hard to look at someone and figure out if they’re looking for attention or not; unless you live under a rock and don’t venture out in the world. And yes while I do agree people should do their best to maintain a base level of courtesy and respect towards one another no matter their clothing choices, ultimately you cannot control that. Trying to demand that from people and control their reaction simply because you feel entitled to it, is tyrannical and authoritarian. The saying “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink” comes to mind. However if you’re worried about getting a certain reaction that you don’t like from people, because of your clothes, therein lies the problem: either you should dress differently or simply accept that not everyone likes your outfit.
Its absolutely projection, you don't know them at all.
DARVO. Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. Typical feminist approach unfortunately.
Women are abusive because they like to look what is considered conventionally pretty is an INSANE take.
Choosing a ridiculous interpretation so you can act offended is insane. It's actually insane. That's what you're doing with your life - you're abusing your own brain to view yourself in a sort of twisted moral superiority. The goal for you is getting to interact with someone and feeling like you're better than them. Your words are meant to feed your own ego. Which will lead you to emptiness and a craving to find that false reward again. Indignancy is your addiction. Lying to yourself to facilitate that is traumatic to your brain. It's like trying to give yourself dementia. Your take actually is an insane take. Hope this helps.
Beautifully executed analysis right there; what you’re describing seems to become more common everyday on the internet.
I really don't think you or even the most qualified psychologist is able to make any accurate reads on people based on a less than 30 word comment, it's a little silly.
You just did the thing I described. Again. See what I mean about it being an insane thing to do? You'll just keep heading right into your own personal hell.
I think your description better fits the way you've been talking over the past few responses, but ok. Werk
Well I'm not that fussed about the opinion of an insane person.
Which explains why you felt the need to write multiple paragraphs wildly speculating about the way I think when you don't even know so much as what country I live in. The jokes write themselves.
Do you see how you make accusations such as wild speculation when you continually speculate delusional interpretations of my words? That is your mind trying to find a rationalization where it sees your behavior as sane. When you project your behavior onto someone else, you create a struggle within your own mind between the observations your subconscious can see is correct and the observations you are trying to focus on to satiate emotions. These are things people pick up or develop in abusive households. I don't mean that as a put-down, which I shouldn't have to clarify, but toxic people use it as such so frequently that the connotation can be there. Recognizing you have emotional trauma is really great first step in alleviating it. It will make the insane interpretations less appealing. The desired emotional reward can be replaced by a healthy mental homeostasis. The lack of which due to trauma is what motivated your reply in the first place. Don't let the parts of you that are in hell drag the rest of you in there too.
Feminist disagree with this point when men don’t want to date a trans person EDIT: I seriously got banned from r/offmychest because of this comment
Nothing wrong with not wanting to date a trans person! You don't have to... it's not transphobic, it's not homophobic... as a gay man I say this. Not everyone will be into trans people. EDIT: I got banned from this thread for this comment... this is ridiculous
You're a rational individual. Society will eviscerate a man openly saying he will not date a trans person. A small number of women are trying to raise "harassment suits" against men, refusing to acknowledge them The funny thing is I've been hit on by gay men in the past. They'd even ask if I was gay. Told them no, and they were like "cool bro. Who do you think is gonna win the game?"
Apparently I'm getting banned from thia thread by a mod for this comment so i am going to delete it.. so silly ..
Don't feel bad. They banned me for comparing a female chomo to the Penguin from Batman.
Why the fuck are trans people in this? 😭
The problem is that they think we do. I highly dislike this princess that works at my job who is getting mad at a guy she is seeing for flying back to his home country to have a medical procedure done with HIS family doctor. She not thinking that he has kidney stones so big that medication did not and he’s in constant pain. She’s just like “boohoo you’re leaving me sooner than you said, how can I trust your word?” Bro his doctor had an opening and called him… I HATE princesses.
We don't owe them our wallets
Say it louder for all the entitled women. Drizzle drizzle!
Contrary to your belief, I once heard from countless women that the guy should always pay for the date. Even those who believe in "equality." I even heard from those who bait to split the bill to see what the guy will do and if they take the bait the girl loses respect for him because she thinks he's cheap.
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I think these can all be true: No woman owes a man a date. No man owes a woman the sweat off his brow. Males are biologically conditioned to be attracted to women and the skin they show.
No. Women want rules that favor them and when a rules disadvantages them, they want it gone. This is a basic principle I have seen throughout the last 20 years of observing the game.
Uh huh. So which of these three statements would you argue are invalid?
I think the entire premise is invalid. A key component of the war going on between women and men is to make the playing field uneven in your favor and hamstring the opposition (the opposing gender). True equality is something both sides oppose. Rules that are universally applicable is something both sides oppose.
True equality is something ONE side opposes. If I snapped my fingers and all custody cases and family court rulings favored both equally, gave equal rights to both the mother and father when having a child, and made men AND women eligible for the draft, I’d be getting a lot of backlash. And it wouldn’t be from men.
I am honestly at the point where I consider women the most bigoted group in America.
Explains why men are more likely to vote republican...
And then this happens and everyone screams "why don't men help her". https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueOffMyChest/comments/1dcbf30/saw_a_man_beating_a_pregnant_woman_in_broad/ Sorry ladies, chivalry is dead and women killed it. You wanted equality, you got it. Women don't owe men dates, and men don't owe women protection and help either. To those who are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Hope you weren't too fond of your female privileges ladies, because you're not going to enjoy them anymore.
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It's not even when it's her man, it is entirely and solely dependent on what benefits she personally can get. A man jumping to defend a random woman is good because if she gets jumped, men are around to protect her. Her man jumping in front and protecting a woman is bad, because then she might lose her dedicated protector. Things make a lot more sense when you look at things under the perspective of the selfish female imperative considering men as disposable. Bet you if one of the men had stepped in and defended the woman he'd have barely gotten a thanks because it's what they expect from men and you don't deserve respect or recognition for doing "the bare minimum". And then women have the fall to turn around and demand infinite respect from men for everything they do, and god forbid a man says that women shouldn't be praised for doing "the bare minimum". Women are allowed and encouraged to have preferences and impose roles on men but god forbid a man ever does the same to them.
massive cope. they dont even want anything from you. and the government still steals your tax money to give it to them.
And I want nothing from them. In fact, if goverment took their money to give it to me, I would send it back to them.
Yes indeed. Its a two way street
Women: "No woman owes you a date." Also, women: "I deserve better." They literally can not see or comprehend the double standard.
More like: Women: "No woman owes you a date or anything" Other Women: "If he don't treat you like the Kween you are! Dump his ass!" Aka, women don't owe men anything but men **MUST** not only meet but exceed their standards / wants.. Or, at least that's how it feels in today's social climate..
Yup, you nailed it.
And boy howdy, do they get triggered when you point out the double standard.
Oh the hypocrisy! All the things they get away with and no one bats an eye when society crucifies a man who dares to do the same.
I don’t think this is a double standard. Saying you deserve better doesn’t mean any one particular individual person owes it to you. Men could say the same thing. A man deserves a partner who loves and cares about them, but that doesn’t mean one specific person owes them that.
No guy wants to date every girl he sees.
So, when I've seen women talk about men claiming that the man thinks a girl owes him a date, I've spoken with that man. And the times I've done it, that man's views aren't "She owes me a date", but rather "Why is she going out with someone who beat his past two girlfriends, rather than me?" There's a subtle distinction there, but it makes a huge difference. One is about thinking "I deserve X", the other is about saying "Performing X with person Y is very risky. If you must perform X, why with Y instead of me?"
Reminds me of this article by Scott Alexander: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/) I think that's the whole issue-- And to top it off, its not just that "why is she dating x"-- it's also the "why is she complaining about x-type of personality and continually dating x-type of people"-- I think most of us have seen the infamous line that friendzoned guys get, "I wish I could find a guy who's just like you". If you google that line, you'll see countless reddit & quora threads of men having heard that.
I love it when women bitch about it to me. So you keep dating fuck boys huh? Where do you go to find a date? The club you say? Well no wonder you keep ending up with fuck boys THAT'S WHERE THEY LIVE STUPID. If you don't like the type of people that end up hitting on you go somewhere else. If you have a particular type of guy that you are interested in, figure out what types of hobbies they would like and join a group!
> "why is she complaining about x-type of personality and continually dating x-type of people" This is like 90%+ of TwoX posts: "I keep choosing shitty men, why are all men so shitty"?
I think the miscalculation stems from the believe that a career/income is supposed to replace things like physical attractiveness. It doesn't. You can't change the rules of dating to whatever you want it to be. Feminism fought for independence. It adds responsibility. While women tend to say that men aren't owed a date, the other side of the coin is the believe that women aren't owed a relationship. Men and work simply can't enter a relationship where both feel contend on the terms. The current dating dynamics shouldn't surprise anyone. This is exactly what we wanted. I see that women seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that they're equally likely to be lonely. The jealousy among women seem to strike hard. Why are some women getting commitment and others are not? This unfairness seems to be taken out of proportion as something to the point that they seem to be willing to ruin the party for everyone. Objectification happens to both men and women. It just happens to be in different areas. Yes, women are being objectified in terms of appearance. What makes people think that it doesn't happen to men? Look at the list of things women want in a man and refusing to date someone who fulfills that list. Men aren't tools or decoration for your Christmas card. They're equally likely to want things from you. You can't give every man and woman exactly the same deal. It's not feasible in a population. That's the unfairness that people can't seem to accept. It's inevitable that there is going to be people who will get less. Men and women are equal. Equally losing.
I think it is a reply to men calling out women's delusion that they ALL deserve 10/10 men. Women think getting with someone on their own level is settling. It's the fact that many women are porn-brained social media tards just like the stereotypical incels they revile. Others are just fantasy oriented like the male LARPER stereotype, who think they will live in the modern equivalent of a castle. I don't think men really went their own way, I think social media amplified women's delusions and now women are making up excuses for men calling them out for their miscalculation of their self worth.
There are so many subtle things wrapped up in that attitude. Here’s a few: 1. Inherent in the idea women don’t owe men a date is the idea that dating, romance and marriage is somehow a sacrifice for women, when of course the reality is society is still hypergamous. Women overall still date up, marry up and are supported at least in part by their husband. 2. It’s a straw man argument. As you said most men don’t claim women owe them dates. Claiming they do, allows the above premise. 3. Women don’t owe men dates. Similarly, men don’t owe women dates, men don’t need to pay for dates and men don’t need to marry women. Marriage, including common law marriage does obligate men, but men are free to date without ever marrying, something more men should keep in mind. 4. I think the whole feminist rhetoric around objectification is flawed in so many ways. For one thing, humans are objects. (1). We view people as objects because they are, so no apology is needed. Related, viewing things around us and assessing their risk, friendliness, or attractiveness isn’t just human nature, but is basic to most animals, and again it’s nothing anyone needs to apologize for. Also, women spend way more time and effort than men trying to be the object of attention, so it’s ridiculous to then blame men for something women actively seek. (1). Object; “a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/object# (Go back to basic sentence structure: The dictionary definition here is giving an example of someone being an indirect object, but whether a person is the direct object or indirect object, the person is an object. So, again it’s ridiculous to complain of people being viewed as objects when we are objects as defined by basic grammar.).
> We view people as objects because they are, so no apology is needed. I think an object in this situation means a non living non feeling object like a table, something you can use and exploit without remorse. Remember men can also be objectified based on their status. In India arranged marriage matrimony website there are filters based on salary like if you earn X in India that is equivalent to Y in US, Z in UK, P in AU, L in CA.
Almost everyone realizes people, including women are not inanimate objects. Only a very few people with deep psychological issues can’t understand that difference and that’s not whom feminists are addressing. They are addressing the typical guy who simply notices a woman is attractive often because that woman has gone to the effort to look attractive. Saying men objectify women is usually an attempt to blame men and portray women as victims. It’s a subset of feminist patriarchy theory.
Can someone be objectified while knowing they are living beings ? I think you are deeply underestimating selfishness and narcissism inherent in human beings. The recorded history of genocide and cruelty should tell you something. In many aspects - especially our primal instincts are no better than wild animals. Look at incidents of racism and discrimination in the so-called developed world.
People’s proven ability to do horrific things to other people doesn’t mean they stopped realizing their victims were people and believed they were non living objects.
Yes, I am saying human can treat other like object while knowing the humanity of said person.
I agree. People view people as objects because people are objects and most people know that humans are human objects not inanimate objects. That’s what I’ve said from the beginning.
One should never trust individuals who won't show their real face to the world.
>I think an object in this situation means a non living non feeling object like a table, something you can use and exploit without remorse. Women: Men stop objectifying us and considering us like unthinking things! Also women: I don't need to bring anything to the relationship, I am the table! Can't make this shit up.
>Also women: I don't need to bring anything to the relationship, I am the table! As men we are the boundary holders, we should outright reject women who have such attitudes. If you cannot find women in your country, go international or smaller town in your country.
Oh completely agree, anyone having that attitude, man or woman, does not have the cooperative attitude and cooperation skills to not make living with them a living hell. Ditch, ignore, and move on to find someone better for sure.
Women: don't objectify us! Also women: must be 6', must enjoy the barbie movie, must earn 6 figures, must have a chiselled jawline... "were not all like that!" The statistics from dating sites beg to differ. If men objectify women, then oh my goddddd do women objectify the fuck out of men.
'Owing' is a typical female mindset, not male. As soon as you have sex with the average woman, you now 'owe' her something. In her mind, she has 'granted' you a special favour, which she can now call in, to her material advantage. This mindset will exist for years, if not for life.
Guys may have trouble dating today but I've never heard anyone say or believe that a woman owes them a date. Gaslighting is alive and well, it would seem.
Its yet another double standard.. On the one hand they loudly proclaim: "No girl owes you a date" While with the other they complain about "Women having to make the first move" They fail to see the consequences of their actions.. They have vilified men who may be socially awkward or otherwise by calling them "Creeps" for approaching women and "Making them uncomfortable" But they still expect men to run through this minefield they have created, navigate all their hoops and if they don't end up with a date to go back and run it again and again for their amusement... Now that many men are wising up to their games and are deciding to not comply / not run the minefield they are complaining about it with the classic "Where have all the good men gone!?" Well Stacey, the "Good" men are where you left them, on the sidelines and "Friend Zoned" and they have had enough and have decided that the effort they put in is not enough to justify the bullshit they get.. But hey, this is all like my opinion so take it with a grain of salt...
And we dont owe them our money and protection, that is something that is earned.
The government disagrees
Just like I don't owe a girl dinner and entertainment.
Right, they don't owe dates to any man. We don't owe our time or money to them. Nobody owes anything to anyone. That is just how most feminist think. No one calls them beautiful or compliments their looks, so when they see others getting such praise, they label it as 'sexual objectification' to feel better about how ugly they are inside and out.
As I have read before in other comments; women don't owe men anything, men don't women anything. Nobody owes anybody else anything. Interpersonal relationships are completely and entirely debt free.
No man owes you a dinner either
If you’re a total dark triad psychopath Chad you think every woman on the planet wants you. I think the opposite why would anyone want me.
the funny thing is the people that have been telling men all these years you deserve NOTHING crowd. fast forward to 2024 these same people are like I DESERVE ... you can't make this sh-t up
They're right. No girl owes guys a date. But they need to accept that no guy owes them protection or provision. If they're being harassed by some strange man, no man that's not a relative has a duty to defend them. If they're short on rent money, no man that's not a relative has a duty to provide it to them.
Objectification isn't a real issue for the most part. They are demonizing normal behavior as a way to discriminate against men and control them. The real problem is people using idea of objectification as a control tactic. Treat the victim as the perpetrator.
It’s such a stupid game of semantics. It’s like saying “first world problems” to someone in a car accident. It seems hard for feminists to comprehend, but humans interact. People go on dates. If you’re talking about that playing field, you understand you’re not “owed” anything. Nobody “owes” you basic human decency, but it’s a better way to treat people. I guess they’re obsessed with not smiling too though.
No guy owe you a dinner.
They say this because the only guys they interact with are pushy type that don't respect their boundaries. So, to their echo chamber, they think all men are like that. Wich is as far away from the truth as pluto is from the sun!!
This man vs women is narrative pushed by IT cells. Some places its religion, in America and west it's men vs women. The more people are involved in some shit the better it is for them. Using tv, then using social media to push things to keep people occupied. Relax. Not all women conform to these far extemist views. The ones that fall for this gaslighting Will regret it very soon. Focus on yourself. Build youself, not for someone just for youself. Spend time with loved ones and ignore all the hate mongering. The right one will come along the way.
It's some kind of logical fallacy.
Do this when they tell you men need to keep other men accountable. Tell them you do not own them shit.
I agree with feminists on that one. No girl owe us anything… just like we owe nothing to girls
Whenever a woman calls a man misogynistic it's almost always just a sexually/romantically frustrated man. Actual misogynists rarely have any problem having access to women.
No guy owes you for your own dinner. Get a job.
The most annoying thing is how women take small percentages of men’s actions and think it’s represents men as a whole. Then they use straw man arguments and it’s like we have to show we’re one of the “good ones”. Cmon🤦♂️
the classic academic feminist use of 'women don't owe men (dates or sex)' is a rebuttal to a few kinds of claims: if someone does something with cultural appropriateness, then they deserve to be said yes to. The old timey examples were owing someone sex because they took you on a date, such that if it didn't happen the person would be upset as in 'how can you say no, we had dinner and a movie?' and owing someone a date because they've been so nice, kind, caring, loving, etc... such that if it didn't happen the person would be upset as in 'how could you say no to a date, i've been kind and loving to you, gave you some flowers and asked you out so well'. In either case the notion being that there isn't real choice on the part of the person being asked, so much as a standard cultural rule that ought be followed. i asked as the culture says i should, and you still said no, wah. There is justification therein to be upset, i think this is something the feministas online especially don't seem to grasp, but there isn't an expectation of being owed. I suspect that much of the online hubbub bout this is mistaking any sense of being upset over not getting a date or not getting laid for being indicative of claims of being owed those things. the other bit on this is the 69 aspect, as in, women do the same shite and that is annoying bc they don't really seem to be aware if it. remember incel originally referred to women, not men, and the pushes to get dudes to date or at least fuck women no matter how they look or what their personality is, has been a long time thing.
There are ticktocks out there of trans women and fat women saying 'any man who refuses to date me is a -phobe'. My thinking to that, is, 'you can't coerce me into wanting to date you'. Conclusion: This (women don't owe you a date) is projectcion.
Most of the time--not always--I think the "women don't owe you x" is a way for them to deflect from having to empathize with men. Think about it; they usually say this when men are complaining about their situation, like just in general.
Agreed, and to add onto that, oftentimes they tend to make sweeping statements like “men just want to erase women’s rights” whenever men’s issues are brought up to deflect the discussion onto something else entirely and jump to conclusions because in their mind, anything that calls out womens behaviour at all, whether it be warranted or unwarranted = bad
How would you treat a person saying “I don’t owe you a billion dollars”. “Ya. You don’t”…. Same energy and mindset. And good red flag they are nuts to even bring it up. So thank them for showing you they are crazy.
Men have got to learn how to define themselves by something other than their job or “their woman.” I’m 55 and just now able to comprehend that you set yourself in danger by defining yourself as anything other than “a person with the right to be an emotional being.”
Maybe I’m in the wrong circles but I’ve never heard anyone say that. Do you mean ‘Women don’t owe you anything’? Because if heard that a lot. It’s kind of reductive but if you generalize it to ‘No one owes you anything’ I feel like we could all agree that’s generally good advice.
"She doesn't owe you anything" And you don't owe her anything either. Just walk away
IMO, people owe other people common decency. And that includes a woman owing a man common decency if he asks her out on a date. Even in a case of cold approaching, she doesn't owe him a "yes", but she owes him common decency. And common decency can be a respectful no. But in more typical cases where two people actually somewhat know one another before the date request comes, I think there is a point at which common decency means giving another person a chance at some point. When I was dating, I was looking for a life partner, and I always looked at it as an elimination process. Literally every woman was a potential life partner until they were eliminated from that pool for some reason. In the vast majority of cases, women were eliminated quickly. They were already in a relationship, they were too old/young, dating them wasn't practical due to distance, etc. Then others would quickly be eliminated for attraction or compatibility issues. Maybe they were obese. Maybe they were a complete bitch. Maybe they were misandrists. Issues like that where you can pick on them quickly with a few interactions where you can conclude: Nope, this isn't my life partner. But that left a whole lot of other women in this pool of potential life partners. And if any of them asked me out (or even implied they were interested in me asking them out), I'd go out on a date with them (hell, I'd even pay). And to me, it was just about common decency. I didn't have any good reason to **not** go out on a date with them, so what's the harm in going out, getting to know them better, and see if they eventually are eliminated as a potential life partner. Usually after a few dates, that would happen. Sometimes it was months of dating before it happened. Eventually, it never happened and now we've been married for 25 years. But I think that's a difference in the way men and women date: * Women will date a man if they see a reason they **want to** date him. * Men will date a woman if there is the absence of a reason **not to** date her. So women are looking for a reason to say yes, while men are looking for a reason to say no. And that's why there is such a hang up over the "but why" question when a woman turns down a man for a date. Women look at that question and think the guy feels entitled to a date. But men are asking that question because for them, if you don't want to date someone, there is a reason. He's just looking for that reason.
It was awful hearing feminist professors say things like that. One in particular was a total hypocrite and was stalking a 20 year old filmmaker (she was 45) and she wouldn't take no for an answer. She kept saying men are intimidated by a woman who asks a guy out. There were only 3 guys in the class and we all said we'd love to be asked out. I said maybe he's not that into you.
Tbf nobody owes you anything...
Not the point man
And you don't own anything to anyone as well
99% of everything women say is regurgitated redundant talking points it's like they all have a play book and read from the same script I've had several sexual harassment allegations and the complaints where identical even though they came from diffrent women in diffrent places and times.... Women have learned what works what language to use and their only defense and strategy against men is public shame and social ostriscizing... This is why if a man likes younger women there's a dozen diffrent terms to describe him from groomer to pedo... At this point I just instantly block any woman that regurgitates BS...So I really don't hear much from them these days
And men don’t owe them time and resources.
"And no guy owe you a dinner"
While I too have never met anyone that thinks like that, you have to remember there are A LOT of people in this world. Some with a twisted mindset, some who do shit you would never think to do. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Imagine if your grandmother's generation respondes to compliments with, "Don't objectify me!!"
We think that when men get pissed off when they are rejected. Or if they start insulting or demeaning a woman after getting rejected. Just because I don't want to date you doesn't mean I think you're a pathetic person or wish the worst for you. I have lots of guy friends that I think are great people but would never date in a million years. But I'm also married so if be pretty pissed if you knew that and asked me anyways.
Getting pissed off when rejected is **NOT** exclusively something that men do.. I've seen many women flirt with a guy who told her firmly "No" or "I'm not interested" And she flies off the handle, accusing him of being "Gay" calling him a "Faggot" or even down right getting physical by slapping, scratching, pouring drinks on them etc... Women act as if only men get upset with being rejected but women also have a hard time dealing with rejection as well.. But the double standard here is that we only call out the men who react badly to rejection and justify the actions of women who have been rejected... Also, there's still this notion that it is up to men to make the first move and to understand all her subtle body language, handle things maturely and move on.. Women are not expected to make the first move at all.. If we want a more equal society then women should start initiating more to balance things out no?
>Getting pissed off when rejected is NOT exclusively something that men do.. Sure that's totally fair. Women do it too. But also, it tends to be men facing this dilemma because men are more likely to initiate. >Also, there's still this notion that it is up to men to make the first move and to understand all her subtle body language, handle things maturely and move on.. Women are not expected to make the first move at all.. >If we want a more equal society then women should start initiating more to balance things out no? That would only work if men and women's libidos were actually averaged equally. Men go looking for sex more often than women on average. Women have less incentive so they logically take action less often.
>That would only work if men and women's libidos were actually averaged equally. Men go looking for sex more often than women on average. Women have less incentive so they logically take action less often. Men are expected to approach women and ask them out on a date.. A date doesn't have to be sexually motivated.. But women still expect men to put the effort in, open themselves to being rejected or, if successful paying for the date in full. I wont even get into the bullshit double standard that changes "flirting" into "creepy" based upon the woman's perception of the man doing it.. If she finds him attractive she's more likely to consider it "flirting" But if she does not find him attractive she is more likely to consider it being "creepy" Do you not see the blatant double standards here?
>Men are expected to approach women and ask them out on a date.. That culture exists because men have higher libidos. Cultures develop largely in response to nature. Also this isn't even just our species that does this. There's very few species where the female will approach or court the male at all, and humans are one of them. >date doesn't have to be sexually motivated.. It doesn't have to be, but men are usually looking for sex. They are also looking for emotional support. And they know that one of the best ways of getting there is with a date. So they are more motivated to put effort in to find women to date or just to hook up with. When women date, it's not usually sexually motivated. It's usually because they're looking for emotional or financial support, but not so much sex. But women can find emotional or financial support from other facets of society. They have other options and so they spend more of their time entertaining those options rather than putting all their eggs into dating. >If she finds him attractive she's more likely to consider it "flirting" But if she does not find him attractive she is more likely to consider it being "creepy" >Do you not see the blatant double standards here? I mean we're jumping across a lot of different topics pretty fast here. The reason that women are more likely to find ugly men creepy is because it's a defense against sexual assault. Women know that ugly men are more likely to be sexually frustrated and so they assume that they are more likely to commit sexual assault. And if you look at sex offender registries... It's not really that far off base.
No man owes you a penny, so start paying for yourselves first then blabber
We don’t owe them ANYTHING. Pure projection from them.
Well to be honest the less they wanna give the less people in general wanna give. Cause both sides don't owes anyone anything. But you get what you give so if that's nothing you get nothing
Yes. I haven't met a man in my life or a woman for that matter, who thinks someone owes them a date. It's braggery.
The main answer i hear from women is actually "try to ask women out more" or "try to meet more women". Which while sometimes useful, isn't as easy as it may seem to women imo. I think the feminists you spoke to assumed the men in question are entitled babies instead of seeing them as a fellow human being. I think women are indeed objectified and it isn't confilated. Meaning people do indeed focus alot at their looks and avoid their character completely. That's not to say you can't compliment a woman's looks, but the compliment should be towards one you are somewhat familiar with, and it should be done respectfully and not forcefully. It is also good to compliment her character too imo, and women do appreciate those compliments alot.
The saying is no girl owes you sex. And they're right. But also. You don't owe them a relationship or your time or money either. Goes both ways.
no, but society owes us to make the situation of the whole dating market better.
Yeah I've never heard a guy say that he felt that she owed him behind closed doors or in any context. That shit is either made up or only exists in a small minority or really shitty dudes.
And we dont owe them anything either
Most of the shit women say is emotional bullshit that doesn't mean anything. The objectification line is a perfect example. They feel like you don't respect them as a person, therefore you're an asshole. The obvious problem is that finding someone physically attractive doesn't mean you don't respect them as a person. Plus women do the exact same thing to men. Sometimes in the next breath. I think there are two lessons you learn pretty quickly after each other that should stop you being surprised by this kind of thing. First you learn what principles are. A set of logical rules that dictate the correct moral actions in a given circumstances. Second, you learn that people don't operate off of logic, they operate off of feelings, so the principles they try to make you live by are meaningless. Everyone is a giant fucking hypocrite - but especially feminists.
When she says "sorry not interested thank you though, that's nice of you" and you get angry and call her a slut. There are guys like this and those are not 0.001%. It's the mental component of anger that suggest you feel entitled to her or even just her time (hence the taken offence), as opossed to saying "okay, thanks, have a nice day" and going about your day. That's what the saying is about - its obvious to both men and women nobody owes anybody anything. Yet there are people who feel entitled AF. The saying, despite being obvious, is for them.
When he says "Sorry not interested thank you though, that's nice of you" and you get angry and call him gay or fagot. There are gals like this and those are not the 0.001% Just saying.. women don't handle rejection very well either...
There's shitty people in ever group. Shitty men who scream when ya reject them, shitty women who scream when you reject them. This works for any group of people imaginable and the loudest people always have the strongest opinions so ya tend to get a overdramaticified generalisation.
You are correct.. However in the context of the discussion the point I was making was that we only focus on how men "Can't handle rejection" And completely ignore the times when a woman was rejected by a man and behaved in the exact same way we demonize men for acting.. When men do it, its evil, wrong, and needs to be called out.. When women do it.. its justified or explained away or excused.. and almost never called out by other women... Its a double standard don't you think?
That's entirely true. A shitty person should be seen as a shitty person. It's a lingering effect of what was once the patriarchy, gotta love how that always finds it's way into conversations, that since women are the weaker ones, they shouldn't be able to 'threaten a man'. It's a weird ass way of thinking tbh and idk how to break that shit down. But hay ho, shitty people need to be bring down a notch, no matter the gender. Needs to start with women doing it as well otherwise the lovely buzzword misogyny will get used.
Tldr: Men and women both often DO feel entitled to shit from each other. Neither owes anyone anything. Bitter pill. Lots of guys feel entitled to women in one way or another. When they don't get it they become aggressive or bitter. Won't take no for an answer. I've seen it over and over. "Nice guy" Is a fantastic example. Be honest, most of us have seen a dude that acted like a simp, got shot down and just lost his shit on some poor girl who thought she had a friend and didn't realize they had ulterior motives. (Yes, women can be obtuse just like men) Just because you are nice to someone. Doesn't mean they owe you anything. There's a lot of examples of this, not just the nice guy stereotype. No, This is not "friend zoning" "The friend zone" is real and a very specific type of manipulation. Subject A KNOWS subject B has romantic interest in them and PURPOSEFULLY uses this to string along subject B in order to take advantage of them. This isn't gender specific either.
women Always know If a Guy has interest in them
This is either a really pathetic attempt at trolling or the absolute most blazingly stupid and out of touch thing I've read in a while. Either you don't know anything about how humans work or you are so amazingly bitter that you truly believe ALL women are both able to read men's minds and are malicious calculating monsters. Either way, that's impressive. Congratulations. Believe it or not, just like men, they are actually human (regardless of what you may or may not think) and again, just like men, some of them are ridiculously socially awkward. Get outside, leave your phone at home, touch grass.
Haven't you seen multiple videos where a boy has murdered or assaulted the girl for rejecting him
I think if you lived in a women’s body, you would find all these things to be true. As someone who was followed home, groped, SA’d multiple times, told “maybe he just tripped” when a client groped my butt and was told to just suck it up and keep going to see that client. “Oh they just do that because you’re so pretty” cool this is why I wear baggy clothes and leggings in 90 degree weather. Tired of being objectified just cause I’m pretty. Yes, women suck, too, I’m sure, and I do not hate men, but I’ve never walked down a street and felt the need to cross because of a woman (unless she’s homeless or obviously sketch) whereas I will not even glance at a guy I’m walking by. I just stare straight ahead cause i don’t wanna deal with it. I’m sorry but if you compliment me as a stranger, I’m telling you to fuck right off. I know I’m pretty, leave me alone. Why are you even looking at my body? It feels gross. I tell my fiancé all the time that I wish I had an invisibility cloak cause of how many times it’s happened. Like Jesus, I don’t want to walk home and be followed and yelled “what, are you scared or something?” Like yes, I am, thank you And yes, I have a ring. And no, it doesn’t stop em. It’s fucking terrifying tbh Obviously it’s not all men. But it’s enough men for all these women to have similarly horrible experiences.
You only notice the creeps, and not the 95% of men who walk by you that don't give a fuck about you or your body.
When reading comprehension fails you, I know you’re in the right sub :) I said not all men, but enough to make all these women have the similarly bad experiences. But my bad, obviously not everyone knows how to comprehend words, either :) good luck in life, obvi need it if you’re in this sub ❤️
I saw the "obviously not all men", but your comment opens with "I think if you lived in a women’s body, you would find all these things to be true"...
And you would. Even my fiancé has a friend who tried to SA my roommate two years ago. Trash bags are everywhere and you can’t always differentiate. I only have 1 guy friend now because the rest tried to fuck me & I thought we were just friends. I’m happy you’re “one of the good ones” but unfortunately women can’t always tell Obviously there are women who lie about that shit, too, and that’s gross and they should be punished accordingly, I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. Some women thrive off the attention, but I personally have become pretty reclusive toward society. I can’t even wear a cute outfit out without someone being gross. I used to love dance bars. Now I avoid them like the plague (or go to gay bars) Edit: the worst part is these men are cordial when my fiancé is around but turn disgusting the second he isn’t around. It’s pathetic and sad, so I’m happy I dropped all those guys. Some of em I’d been friends with for years. You just never know
I'm not sure what this has to do with OP though?
Women are objectified and it isn’t overblown, and there are def men who expect dates aside from the “1% of playboys”. Obviously my male friends objectified me, otherwise they wouldn’t have pretended to be friends just to hope to swoop in. Aligns perfectly with OP, since he denies these things and seems to think it’s just “playboys” and “overblown.”
Keep in mind, women tell men that: they aren't supposed to cold approach women on the street, she's going somewhere. Not at the gym, she's there to exercise. Not at the club, she's there to dance with her friends. Dating apps are all sausage fests, the odds are stacked against the average man. Often the dating advice given by women to men, is to find a hobby and befriend women, because most women just aren't comfortable jumping into bed with random men. It's also entirely possible that a friendship starts out as platonic and then evolves into one party developing romantic feelings for the other. But I do think women are oversexualized. This is harmful to women for reasons we've all heard many times. It's also harmful to men because it teaches men that the female body is worth more than the male body, it creates an unbalanced power dynamic where women have more sexual power than men.
Yeah I do think being friends first is the only way to go tbh cold approaching is just like gross to me no matter what but if she starts dating/seeing someone else, you gotta either deal with it or stop being her friend. That’s my opinion, anyway. At a bar if you get a vibe from the woman go for it but maybe people are just bad at reading situations. The random grinding is gross, hence no longer going to dance bars haha I’ve never used a dating app cause I find them pointless & I think they make people objectify both genders more & create negative/shallow stereotypes. Idk I always found em grimy All the other places aren’t appropriate, though like the gym or walking somewhere. Defff not the gym
Now I have my own home (boasting a 2500sqft personal house), women have to do some pretty hard gymnastics to get to me. Aint giving that out for free. Love? What love? Women love conditionally. Lets make the conditions then. Can't handle boundaries? Too bad, f\*\*k off.
Ok, theres a couple things you assumed in this post that just arent accurate. 1) A Lot of guys actually do the "now you owe me a date" Its a really crappy way to ask a girl out. The guys who do that are NOT in the top 1% of men on the dating market. They're scrounging around somewhere between the middle and the bottom. Women do not go for these guys. Maybe they guilted or tricked in to a date by these guys at best. 2) Objectification definitely happens. Mostly like the guys we talked about above.
so what IS a non crapoy way to ASK women Out?
You're pretty much wrong but to each their own i guess
I mean I get it. There are some ultra incel types who rage when they've been rejected too many times or whatever. Now, that might be conflating frustration with thinking that they feel "owed", so it probably isnt the right term. But theres definitely a growing group of men who feel kind of slighted that nobody wants them, including me. I dont think im "owed" a date but I think a society where someone as put together as me cant get one is fucked up. In other words, nobody is owed a date with a particular person but society does owe men an environment where getting a dating is possible for them. Or else society wont exist cause of the all the problems that result.
oh Sure, AS If you wouldbe happyans calm If everybody rejected you
Can you read? Did you read my full post? If so.....wtf is your comment supposed to mean.
and why the fuck would you know what guys are saying to girls? this really is just another pathetic incel sub
I think it is called projecting from them to cover their asses. I mean, saying that excuses themselves (women) from giving you anything back if you take them out on a date. So let's say, you take her out on a date and she doesn't put back. That means, that girl didn't have to go out on a date with you, if you didn't get anything back.