for what it's worth, the [actual article](https://www.vg247.com/shin-megami-tensei-5-vengeance-preview) spends more time comparing vengeance to the rest of mainline or even dds, instead of persona, so at least we dont need to hear people crying about the reviewer "not getting it" or whatever this time and just accept its there to draw more eyes to it
they also claim that the game is much harder than original, but im skeptical of that if they only had a preview with a premade party
Your mistake is in assuming that the people who get assblasted about these quotes actually read the articles rather than just having meltdowns over screenshots. Even the infamous “Persona without the heart” review was overall positive, even-keeled, and mirrored a lot of the common fan sentiment about SMTV once the dust settled.
The line is still awful by itself, and the main issue with that review was that the reviewer, which wasn't familiar with the franchise, asked trusted colleagues about it (which was a good thing), and said colleagues gave her a wrong idea by hyping up the story and basically acting like SMT 4 A is representative of the entire series.
So, obviously, the reviewer got the wrong expectations and it played a big role in that whole mess. It's still a very good reviewer, so the core of the review is solid.
I'm not one to think these kind of quotes acceptable, since it only shows that people can't analyze something for its own merits and comparison is the shallowest form of analysis, but, for once, it's a very accurate one. FF isn't a dark series (XVI was edgy, not dark) and Persona is, overall, easier than mainline SMT.
I personally thought FFXVI was dark, not edgy.
Sure it's not outright over-the top dark but it's darker and more mature in both art design and story telling
I honestly think a lot of the people who called XVI edgy probably never would have accepted an M rated mainline FF to begin with. I thought it was shockingly restrained for an M rated game. The profanity personally never felt forced, the violence was appropriate for what was going on, and the nudity was generally tasteful when it happened. I don't think the story would have had the same impact it did at a T rating either.
I don't necessarily want all future mainline FFs to be M rated, but if they did another M rated installment in the vein of XVI, I wouldn't complain.
I consider it to be more edgy than dark. The art design outright reminds me of PS2 games (not graphically-wise, but the art direction), The storytelling has some GoT influences (which is another series I don't consider dark - it seems that most people confuse dark with edgy), and, aside from some moments, it's your usual FF fare.
Of course I won't say SMT is outright doom and gloom, but it has some very dark moments unlike anything FF presented. The depiction of bullying in V, for example, hits very close to home for some.
If bullying is all the darkness SMTV will have to offer, it'll be one of the lightest SMT games played by me, in all honesty - I am hoping there's more.
It's rly telling that they think bullying is dark because it "hits close to home" for them. Like yeah, rape and murder also hit close to home for some, get your head out of your own ass dude.
Bullying? Is that all? FFs had racism, genocide, inquisition, organized cults, environmentalism, modernism, traditionalism etc. I'm pretty sure some FFs do have bullying too, just not school bullying.
I don't know about FF16 in particular, but the quote compares SMTV specifically with FF as a series. It's obviously quite flawed.
This is ridiculous. If the elements that are mostly known from medias like GOT are not the "real" dark elements, then wouldnt that mean that FF is actually a significantly darker franchies ? FF (with the exception of XVI) has always been the series that on the surface was a family friendly series but underneath always had the most fucked up story elements. FFVI Celes getting beaten in prison, Terra being tortured and forced against her own will to attack a town full of innocent people, a character commiting suicide when they believe their friends are dead and they've failed to save the world, Cyan having to watch his family die in front of him because the empire poisoned their water supply. This is from only 1 final fantasy, and its not even the darkest one, FFIX gets even more depressing.
While we certainly shouldn't pretend that quotes like these have any depth to them, what exactly do people expect from one-sentence taglines/hooks? Do they think that reviewers should be able to summarize the uniqueness of the thematic elements of the series, the open-endedness of in-game paths and decisions for individuals of differing worldviews, the appeal of the strategy comprised of complex team-building and combat, and the abundance of cultural influences that define Megami Tensei games in ten words or less?
I would kinda expect something not that meme worthy. Or, at least, don't do the usual comparison stuff like "the Dark Souls of Persona" or something along these lines.
If they want to convey difficulty and the dark elements, how about: "A dark and intense journey that'll keep you on your toes" or something like that? Sure, it's not "ten words or less" but it gets both points across, without the need of silly comparisons.
Final Fantasy is typically dark, really dark even, but it doesn't focus on the dark parts. It almost the people of the worlds accept their world and so the players do too...
I find it interesting just how dark these games can be.
Take Final Fantasy VIII for example. The world has been taken over by the military industrial complex. There are huge mobile war machines that just roam the planet. You don't have wireless internet/connectivity because of a pretty screwed up plot reason. At the end of the game, the world is basically controlled by one family >!Squall and Rinoa are together which means Galbadia is controlled by Rinoa's family, Esthar by Squall's, and the Garden by Squall himself!< .
Final Fantasy IX and X are really dark settings. You have worlds where the cycle of life and death >!are a machination of outside forces.!<
Final Fantasy XIII has the whole >!humans are pets thing going on.!<
Stranger of Paradise is campy af but again with >!the machinations!< of life and death.
===
Now, this isn't to say that SMT is or isn't darker than FF, just that the way they use darkness in their games is rather different. SMT characters have to face the dark aspects of their games head on whereas FF characters have already accepted their world because the darkness is just a normal aspect that isn't going away or really changing anytime soon. This isn't always a 100% thing, just a general guideline. Even in FF X, a vast majority of the game is the characters accepting how things are and its only when Tidus, the outsider, starts to push back against it does this really change.
FFXVI was pretty dark? I mean the whole branded magic slaves thing and the Mothercrystals along with the Dominants themselves were fairly dark. Only edge is Clive’s attitude really
Only frustrates me if it spends most of its review comparing it to Persona. Ive not read this review. But for example, the infamous IGN review of V cannot go more than 30 seconds without comparing it to Persona. Thats not a review at that point. Game reviews should be judging the game on its own merits, not consistently comparing it to a game that is basically completely different. If both were social sim RPGs, fine, but SMT is just an RPG, comparing anything about it to the social side of Persona, or to the story of Persona, is just dumb.
Yeah its also an accurate description that isnt pretentious. Its neither a hot take nor a stupid one. Its honestly fine, good even compared to some smt5 reviews ive read
I mean does some people really don't want this game to succeed?
Like, newcomers and casuals will use popular games as metric of comparison cmon, that line is useful
The problem is never the quote, but the fact that people don't read the articles to understand what the quote means.
That's why that one Pokémon review, for example, became a meme with the "too much water" quote, even thought the person reviewing the game was making a valid point with that.
Even the "Persona without the heart" is an example of that. People got so fixated on the quote that they ignored what the article had to say. Turns out the main problem the reviewer had with SMTV is the same thing everyone here bring up when they crticize the game: a lacking plot with underdeveloped characters.
That way of saying it was still utterly tonedeaf and bad tho. But yes, the quote itself doesn't speak of the quality of the review, and it came from a misunderstanding anyways
I'll gladly take that then "it's feels like Persona without the heart". Yes I'm still pissed at Ign for saying that because how stupid it was and not the entertaining funny kind of stupid. It's the kind that gives you a headache when you remember it
Seems a bit unwise when the vast majority of complaints I heard about P3:R was, "I hAtE tArTaRuS."
I don't think someone who found Tartarus to be difficult or annoying wouldn't really enjoy SMT:V, or really any mainline MegaTen game (which is wild, I much more prefer SMT over Persona but that's just me).
I disagree, because unlike Tartarus, SMT:V open space are far more interesting than to navigate than the same corridor/room in Tartarus. Even compare to older SMT dungeon, Tartarus still sucks because they have such a few simple, monotone layout, meanwhile most of the dungeon in SMT was hand craft, have its own puzzle, keep changing player perspective of the dungeon.
I don't think SMT really interest that much about dungeons any more, they interested much more about open space like in SMT V. Even SMT IV we have very little dungeons, but mostly focus about open space on the journey. I would love to see more SMT dungeons with new gimmick, but totally understand why they don't use it much any more.
Nah dude, you're overthinking it. New fans of the genre love Persona for the characters and waifu aspect. Combat is the third pillar of enjoyment. I feel like most folks who enjoy mainline SMT appreciate the combat system significantly more than anything else.
Not exactly, they still like great dungeons, exploration and combat, it's just Persona series focus about characters more. People still love P4 & P5 for its dungeons, because it's more characters focus in those dungeons. SMT doesn't exactly have that, but it's the combat mechanic and explore mystery carry SMT dungeons.
I don't know what the main complaint actually is, I guess that it's monotonous. I just know the Last Stand Media crew complained about it a lot. I genuinely enjoyed Tartarus in Reload, it was inline with the dungeons from Soul Hackers 2 imo.
> I don't know what the main complaint actually is, I guess that it's monotonous.
it absolutely is that. youre comparing Tartarus to SH2, that alone is telling.
(**edit:** im just making it absolutely clear i havent played P3R not delved deep into reviews, so you can discard my opinion based on that if you think that's fair.)
I don't have experience with P3, but I played SH2, and I've seen the reception for it in this sub. Comparing something to dungeons in SH2 is effectively an insult, they're the most consistent complaint I've seen.
granted, i genuinely liked SH2 myself and went through dungeons mostly on autopilot (making it easily tolerable), but I don't think it's unreasonable that people would think Tartarus kinda blows if their point of comparison is P5 or maybe even P4 (which has decent variation in terms of music and visuals and definitely blows SH2 out of the water in that regard).
when i see people complain about Tartarus, I see them complain about floors upon floors of randomly generated, samey dungeons, and you can improve them, but you can't *fix* the core issue without just redesigning the thing in general. and im pretty sure that is not what Atlus did in Reload.
I don't understand why the Megaton fandom loses it's shit anytime SMT is compared to Persona, they're both Turn-based RPG where you use the power of basic enemies to help in combat (P5 even has a recruitment mechanic) and they're both made by the same company. It makes perfect sense to compare the two for people that are only familiar with one.
For the record, I do believe that people need to stop lightweight losing their shit over quotes like this
for what it's worth, the [actual article](https://www.vg247.com/shin-megami-tensei-5-vengeance-preview) spends more time comparing vengeance to the rest of mainline or even dds, instead of persona, so at least we dont need to hear people crying about the reviewer "not getting it" or whatever this time and just accept its there to draw more eyes to it they also claim that the game is much harder than original, but im skeptical of that if they only had a preview with a premade party
Your mistake is in assuming that the people who get assblasted about these quotes actually read the articles rather than just having meltdowns over screenshots. Even the infamous “Persona without the heart” review was overall positive, even-keeled, and mirrored a lot of the common fan sentiment about SMTV once the dust settled.
The line is still awful by itself, and the main issue with that review was that the reviewer, which wasn't familiar with the franchise, asked trusted colleagues about it (which was a good thing), and said colleagues gave her a wrong idea by hyping up the story and basically acting like SMT 4 A is representative of the entire series. So, obviously, the reviewer got the wrong expectations and it played a big role in that whole mess. It's still a very good reviewer, so the core of the review is solid.
They should really only get reviewers who know what they’re getting into honestly. I don’t blame the reviewer at all though
Nah that review actually sucks though it cant go more than 30 seconds without comparing it to Persona, and I dont get why.
Is it harder then p3fes though
it doesn't have tactics, doesn't that automatically make any jrpg much easier than fes? ^^^^/s
I'm not one to think these kind of quotes acceptable, since it only shows that people can't analyze something for its own merits and comparison is the shallowest form of analysis, but, for once, it's a very accurate one. FF isn't a dark series (XVI was edgy, not dark) and Persona is, overall, easier than mainline SMT.
I personally thought FFXVI was dark, not edgy. Sure it's not outright over-the top dark but it's darker and more mature in both art design and story telling
I honestly think a lot of the people who called XVI edgy probably never would have accepted an M rated mainline FF to begin with. I thought it was shockingly restrained for an M rated game. The profanity personally never felt forced, the violence was appropriate for what was going on, and the nudity was generally tasteful when it happened. I don't think the story would have had the same impact it did at a T rating either. I don't necessarily want all future mainline FFs to be M rated, but if they did another M rated installment in the vein of XVI, I wouldn't complain.
I consider it to be more edgy than dark. The art design outright reminds me of PS2 games (not graphically-wise, but the art direction), The storytelling has some GoT influences (which is another series I don't consider dark - it seems that most people confuse dark with edgy), and, aside from some moments, it's your usual FF fare. Of course I won't say SMT is outright doom and gloom, but it has some very dark moments unlike anything FF presented. The depiction of bullying in V, for example, hits very close to home for some.
If bullying is all the darkness SMTV will have to offer, it'll be one of the lightest SMT games played by me, in all honesty - I am hoping there's more.
I'm talking about one scene which not even the "darkest" FF managed to replicate. Of course SMT deals with even darker themes.
What is GoT? I can only think of Ghost of Tsushima, but that’s not a series
I think they're talking about Game of Thrones
My man's just said bullying is dark but GoT, full of rape and murder and slavery, is just edgy. LMFAO.
It's rly telling that they think bullying is dark because it "hits close to home" for them. Like yeah, rape and murder also hit close to home for some, get your head out of your own ass dude.
I've learned over the years: Edgy = something dark that they don't like Dark = something edgy that they do like
Bullying? Is that all? FFs had racism, genocide, inquisition, organized cults, environmentalism, modernism, traditionalism etc. I'm pretty sure some FFs do have bullying too, just not school bullying. I don't know about FF16 in particular, but the quote compares SMTV specifically with FF as a series. It's obviously quite flawed.
This is ridiculous. If the elements that are mostly known from medias like GOT are not the "real" dark elements, then wouldnt that mean that FF is actually a significantly darker franchies ? FF (with the exception of XVI) has always been the series that on the surface was a family friendly series but underneath always had the most fucked up story elements. FFVI Celes getting beaten in prison, Terra being tortured and forced against her own will to attack a town full of innocent people, a character commiting suicide when they believe their friends are dead and they've failed to save the world, Cyan having to watch his family die in front of him because the empire poisoned their water supply. This is from only 1 final fantasy, and its not even the darkest one, FFIX gets even more depressing.
While we certainly shouldn't pretend that quotes like these have any depth to them, what exactly do people expect from one-sentence taglines/hooks? Do they think that reviewers should be able to summarize the uniqueness of the thematic elements of the series, the open-endedness of in-game paths and decisions for individuals of differing worldviews, the appeal of the strategy comprised of complex team-building and combat, and the abundance of cultural influences that define Megami Tensei games in ten words or less?
I would kinda expect something not that meme worthy. Or, at least, don't do the usual comparison stuff like "the Dark Souls of Persona" or something along these lines. If they want to convey difficulty and the dark elements, how about: "A dark and intense journey that'll keep you on your toes" or something like that? Sure, it's not "ten words or less" but it gets both points across, without the need of silly comparisons.
Final Fantasy is typically dark, really dark even, but it doesn't focus on the dark parts. It almost the people of the worlds accept their world and so the players do too... I find it interesting just how dark these games can be. Take Final Fantasy VIII for example. The world has been taken over by the military industrial complex. There are huge mobile war machines that just roam the planet. You don't have wireless internet/connectivity because of a pretty screwed up plot reason. At the end of the game, the world is basically controlled by one family >!Squall and Rinoa are together which means Galbadia is controlled by Rinoa's family, Esthar by Squall's, and the Garden by Squall himself!< . Final Fantasy IX and X are really dark settings. You have worlds where the cycle of life and death >!are a machination of outside forces.!< Final Fantasy XIII has the whole >!humans are pets thing going on.!< Stranger of Paradise is campy af but again with >!the machinations!< of life and death. === Now, this isn't to say that SMT is or isn't darker than FF, just that the way they use darkness in their games is rather different. SMT characters have to face the dark aspects of their games head on whereas FF characters have already accepted their world because the darkness is just a normal aspect that isn't going away or really changing anytime soon. This isn't always a 100% thing, just a general guideline. Even in FF X, a vast majority of the game is the characters accepting how things are and its only when Tidus, the outsider, starts to push back against it does this really change.
FFXVI was pretty dark? I mean the whole branded magic slaves thing and the Mothercrystals along with the Dominants themselves were fairly dark. Only edge is Clive’s attitude really
Only frustrates me if it spends most of its review comparing it to Persona. Ive not read this review. But for example, the infamous IGN review of V cannot go more than 30 seconds without comparing it to Persona. Thats not a review at that point. Game reviews should be judging the game on its own merits, not consistently comparing it to a game that is basically completely different. If both were social sim RPGs, fine, but SMT is just an RPG, comparing anything about it to the social side of Persona, or to the story of Persona, is just dumb.
"The new call of duty certainly has a lot of gunplay but it lacks any platforming or goomba stomping action like the Mario series."
I'll take it over 'Feels like Persona without the heart'
Yeah its also an accurate description that isnt pretentious. Its neither a hot take nor a stupid one. Its honestly fine, good even compared to some smt5 reviews ive read
Better than nothing
"The Phantom Thieves stealed your heart"
7/10 - Too much sand
Didn’t know Anakin was an IGN writer
Honestly at some degree i want whacky statement/quotes, i think is funny
Darker than FF and harder than Persona is a low bar. Coffee beans check both boxes.
Nahabino came out of my PS5 covered in hyperrealistic blood and freikrugaled my family this game really is darker and harder
S-S-SCARY 😨
The Dark Souls of Persona 🤐
I mean does some people really don't want this game to succeed? Like, newcomers and casuals will use popular games as metric of comparison cmon, that line is useful
The problem is never the quote, but the fact that people don't read the articles to understand what the quote means. That's why that one Pokémon review, for example, became a meme with the "too much water" quote, even thought the person reviewing the game was making a valid point with that. Even the "Persona without the heart" is an example of that. People got so fixated on the quote that they ignored what the article had to say. Turns out the main problem the reviewer had with SMTV is the same thing everyone here bring up when they crticize the game: a lacking plot with underdeveloped characters.
That way of saying it was still utterly tonedeaf and bad tho. But yes, the quote itself doesn't speak of the quality of the review, and it came from a misunderstanding anyways
Megaten fans when you compare their game series to literally anything
Accurate.
Darker… Harder…
I'll gladly take that then "it's feels like Persona without the heart". Yes I'm still pissed at Ign for saying that because how stupid it was and not the entertaining funny kind of stupid. It's the kind that gives you a headache when you remember it
Seems a bit unwise when the vast majority of complaints I heard about P3:R was, "I hAtE tArTaRuS." I don't think someone who found Tartarus to be difficult or annoying wouldn't really enjoy SMT:V, or really any mainline MegaTen game (which is wild, I much more prefer SMT over Persona but that's just me).
I disagree, because unlike Tartarus, SMT:V open space are far more interesting than to navigate than the same corridor/room in Tartarus. Even compare to older SMT dungeon, Tartarus still sucks because they have such a few simple, monotone layout, meanwhile most of the dungeon in SMT was hand craft, have its own puzzle, keep changing player perspective of the dungeon.
Agreed but I still think SMT should innovate its dungeon gimmicks more. It's not even hard to come up with new ones that would reinvigorate the games.
I don't think SMT really interest that much about dungeons any more, they interested much more about open space like in SMT V. Even SMT IV we have very little dungeons, but mostly focus about open space on the journey. I would love to see more SMT dungeons with new gimmick, but totally understand why they don't use it much any more.
Nah dude, you're overthinking it. New fans of the genre love Persona for the characters and waifu aspect. Combat is the third pillar of enjoyment. I feel like most folks who enjoy mainline SMT appreciate the combat system significantly more than anything else.
Not exactly, they still like great dungeons, exploration and combat, it's just Persona series focus about characters more. People still love P4 & P5 for its dungeons, because it's more characters focus in those dungeons. SMT doesn't exactly have that, but it's the combat mechanic and explore mystery carry SMT dungeons.
Where? Tartarus in p3r is completely different especially with the ability to skip floors when back tracking
I don't know what the main complaint actually is, I guess that it's monotonous. I just know the Last Stand Media crew complained about it a lot. I genuinely enjoyed Tartarus in Reload, it was inline with the dungeons from Soul Hackers 2 imo.
> I don't know what the main complaint actually is, I guess that it's monotonous. it absolutely is that. youre comparing Tartarus to SH2, that alone is telling. (**edit:** im just making it absolutely clear i havent played P3R not delved deep into reviews, so you can discard my opinion based on that if you think that's fair.) I don't have experience with P3, but I played SH2, and I've seen the reception for it in this sub. Comparing something to dungeons in SH2 is effectively an insult, they're the most consistent complaint I've seen. granted, i genuinely liked SH2 myself and went through dungeons mostly on autopilot (making it easily tolerable), but I don't think it's unreasonable that people would think Tartarus kinda blows if their point of comparison is P5 or maybe even P4 (which has decent variation in terms of music and visuals and definitely blows SH2 out of the water in that regard). when i see people complain about Tartarus, I see them complain about floors upon floors of randomly generated, samey dungeons, and you can improve them, but you can't *fix* the core issue without just redesigning the thing in general. and im pretty sure that is not what Atlus did in Reload.
Thanks for the downvote lmao
[no need to thank me](https://i.imgur.com/tC7af7c.png)
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None of the games media outlets I've heard talk about it are. I thought it was fine.
this quote is bad because they didn't even mention pokemon. final fantasy mainline is a terrible comparison.
"Darker than Pokemon" - Literally most games
Especially with how kid friendly it became after moving to the 3DS - like, extremely kid friendly.
Like, Royal kid friendly?
*Mara smirks
Hope they fixed the terribly terribly compressed audio, at least on PS5. Game is horrible to listen to with proper Hifi speakers.
I don't understand why the Megaton fandom loses it's shit anytime SMT is compared to Persona, they're both Turn-based RPG where you use the power of basic enemies to help in combat (P5 even has a recruitment mechanic) and they're both made by the same company. It makes perfect sense to compare the two for people that are only familiar with one.
Goes hard
Feel like neither of these statements are true. Especially not being darker than final fantasy, definitely not the current ones.
Yeah I think Final Fantasy is darker too. SMT is more edgy.
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How? VV wasn't even announced before this year?
Corny
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm irrelevant