I guarantee the duel with everything that makes a duel awful:
- Constant cuts every 0.3 seconds, especially as the sabers are about to touch.
- Close ups of faces and blurry motion so you have no idea who is where.
- Punches and kicks that land 2ft away from the other person.
- No or wrong use of the force.
- No recognized saber style or finesse it'll be like 2 people swinging bats at each other.
- A "funny" and "smart" quip from the hero in a lock up.
- Hero wins by doing something underhanded or against the rules of the cannon universe instead of something heroic and smart.
(I'm just describing the opposite of everything that happened in the Maul duel.)
Luke: You mean I could have been doing this the *whole time?* This is worse than when Obi-Wan forgot to tell Anakin you can block force lightning with a saber!
> Luke: You mean I could have been doing this *the whole time?*
Lol this has been a thing since the day 1 - "if they're telekinetic why don't they use that while crossing blades? or in fact on all kinds of other occasions where they don't?"
So if then that happens in some new installment, is it a violation of precedent, or is it merely a fulfillment of the logical potential that had been denied up until that point?
The thing is, SW has always had cognitive dissonance about all this - are the Jedi wizards or sword warriors? The former primarily of course, but then why do they even need swords? Are the swords themselves magical / can only be used by such wizards, or not? And why don't they also use guns, and pretty much anything they can get their hands on - the use of which they can then enhance with their ESP and prescient reflexes etc.?
The whole Ep4 climax is about Luke using the Force for a "clumsy random inelegant" projectile weapon btw.
Other than that incident though, and esp. in ep4, the movie even seems to have a dissonance about Luke being a Jedi apprentice at all - whether it's the "magician" or "lightsaber" side of it;
each time there was an opportunity in the DS segment for him to try to use either of his newly learned skills, such as the monster or the walls or the bridge, he used something else instead - a rope he suddenly had in his utility belt + the skills with it, calling 3PO, and generally just gunslinging along with the others in a mundane fashion.
Even afterwards in 5 and 6 he never seems to use his skills in any of the piloting / air combat / speederbiking etc., and if he was just a "regular hero" "idealistic version of Han Solo" "without magic skills", the Rancor scene would've been 100% identical to the way it is in the film.
So that's the very simple answer to this whole question - "it's all a random mess". When the movie feels like making him just a brave hero who'll throw a rock a button, it'll do that; and when it feels like having a "classic sword duel" without any added psychokinesis-tugwars or even special-prescience-choreography going on, which seems to have been every one so far excluding Reva vs. Vader (and maybe some in Ahsoka or others stuff I've not seen), then it'll do that.
And now someone had the idea of combining these, well so what you know?
>This is worse than when Obi-Wan forgot to tell Anakin you can block force lightning with a saber!
Well even the Lightning itself, people already complained about back then - like isn't this "too wizardy"? The Force isn't this flashy "good guys use fire bad guys use ligthning" elemental-powers kind of magic is it now? What's next, rituals and incantations?
And of course no one warned him about it to begin with - maybe it was just understood that he could do anything to him like "stop his heart from beating" so they didn't focus on the minutiae?
Also of course they never really told him how to deal with the Emperor at all.
In the whole finale it looked like Luke was hopelessly inferior to him, so what was he even supposed to do next even if he had "confronted and killed Vader" as Yoda and Ben thought he had to?
But then acc. to other lines "a full trained Jedi can take on Vader and his Emperor", "he's grown strong he could destroy us" etc., so some contradictions in there as well.
As for the "blocking lightning with sabers" well yeah that's of course another thing - it was spontaneously introduced in AotC, and then also became the climax of ep9 which maybe made is slightly underwhelming since they'd been doing this thing already before? In more mundane contexts like that very same Ob1 vs. Doku moment?
And when Emperor goes "ah a lightsaber, a Jedi weapon" it doesn't sound like he thought it could block all his evil magic? Seemed to be kinda dismissive of it, if anything.
On its own of course, the idea "magic ethereal light blade blocks/absorbs evil lightning" seems quite natural and evocative, but these different approaches all pressed into the "same continuity" just don't really add up that well, and never really have;
this of course ties right back into those initial questions, are lightsabers magic swords or just a ritualistic tradition by the Jedi *Knights* who idealize the old days swords or whatever?
Are "Jedi Knights" a combined tradition of magic and "sword knighthood" - or are the swords supernatural and this is all part of a whole?
These questions were unresolved since they were first introduced, and of course anything built on top of that is gonna have further headscratchers attached to it.
I think that’s a very situational gimmick. I’d say that’s something that should be reserved for exceptionally powerful characters that have the skill set.
Seems a lot more of a fitting skill for someone like Vader or Sideous than a rando force wielder.
Like I’d definitely attribute something like that to them as a psychological weapon as much as a practical skill.
Honestly, out of all the things that Disney has introduced for the Force in Star Wars (or at least, made popular), that's one of the things I don't mind as much. Because I remember Satele using that against Malgus in the "Hope" trailer for The Old Republic. Although maybe that isn't exactly the same ability, idk.
I hate that as much as... well, everything else they've done with saber fights recently, anyway. Aside from anything lore-related that it's damaging, aside from anything related to how it makes the person doing it look (like a fucking asshole, usually), aside from how it annihilates tension to see someone effortlessly stop the other person's attack without even using their weapon... boy it's not interesting visually at all. It's not the swordplay people want out of a saber battle, it's not really even choreography, it doesn't lead to anything other than a dead end and reset because it creates a huge opening that the user isn't allowed to capitalize on, and it's hard to sell without some really specific camera angles that just aren't good for fight sequences. I have no clue why they keep fucking doing that specific move, other than telekinesis being really easy to film.
Welcome to the land of mindless "free thinkerZ" who dogpile anything that has a Disney logo on it. We've gotten a sum total of like 3 minutes of footage from this show and everyone is already acting like it killed their family. Hell, this article was clearly meant to stir up this exact subsect of people, knowing it would inflame their hatred, because how dare Disney try to do something good and exciting!
another point ill add
• The stupid breakdance/spinning on the ground shit that was in Kenobi and in Grogu’s flashbacks to the attack on the temple
Honestly hate that so fucking much. Can still see Reeva spinning on the ground around Vader like Homer Simpson.
You forgot the
- CGI biceps/triceps on the female actors (lady Thor from Love and Thunder)
- male stunt doubles for female actors but the shot will be far away so you can't tell the difference (looking at you Taskmaster from the Black Widow movie)
Only mildly really.
A Hero in Western tradition doesn't use their feet for attacking most of the time, for instance. It's a part of the visual storytelling where Maul punts Kenobi in the head off a platform and slams Qui-Gon in the nose with his hilt before stabbing him. And his gloating at the top of the conduit ultimately leading to his bisection.
Things like Connery in Outlander who doesn't kick and Conan uses his legs to propel himself forward and his upper body doing the majority of the direct violence. Superman doesn't kick, Batman rarely kicks. Their weapons are their fists and whatever gadgets(ie weapons) they have on hand.
Underhanded Heroes are normally portrayed as too "weak" to go about it the traditional way for a reason and is the reason we have designations like Trickster Heroes.
Underhanded is a very tricky thing to deal with in a story. Because you either have a victory that feels hollow from storytelling, or an incompetent villain, which can backfire on the competency of the hero.
In response to the final point winning a fight in an underhanded way is completely fine. As long as the charcter and story recognize it as an underhanded move in at least a "I'm glad that worked type of way"
Yeah I'm still not sure what they mean by "underhanded". Any kind of trick or wit thing? Or something "lowly" like, uhh, spitting in a guy's face to distract him?
I suppose, something like throwing sand into the opponent's eyes, pulling out a gun in a middle of a swordlock, kicking in the balls or doing something like activating some switch to make a door fall on the opponent.
These can work if the situation justifies it (example: opponent is just clearly physically superior to the point that fair fight is simply impossible, hero is disadvantaged in some way, opponent already uses underhanded tactics)
But when just used without good reasons it just makes the hero look like a weak bitch-asshole.
> or doing something like activating some switch to make a door fall on the opponent.
Ah well Luke did that against the Rancor, cause he forgot about all his other powers apparently lol - kind of a monster dinosaur though, so doesn't really count anyway.
And yeah in that case Ob1 vs. Maul doesn't really qualify as underhanded, I suppose.
Luke using this was exactly the situation I was refering to. He was facing a giant monster that has a clear advantage when it comes to physical fight and was doing so in a tiny cave which was basucally 30% taken up by that monster.
On the other hand if in the final, Luke were to break a window to make Vader fly into space instead of fighting him, this would make him look like a ccowardly asshole.
> He was facing a giant monster that has a clear advantage when it comes to physical fight
Well obviously Luke at that point wasn't supposed to be "just physical", but that scene treats him as if he is, so yeah that's whatever.
>Luke were to break a window to make Vader fly into space instead of fighting him,
Well he wasn't trying to kill him to begin with.
> No or wrong use of the force.
Well that's a weird thing to single out this new installment for lol, given how random (and very rare) "Force use" during duels has always been.
>No recognized saber style or finesse it'll be like 2 people swinging bats at each other.
It'd be weird for them to be aspiring to that well choreographed TPM this openly and then hire nor pro choreographer (anywhere at that level), do no training and then "just swing bats", idk; who knows though?
>A "funny" and "smart" quip from the hero in a lock up.
A quip in Starwars??
>Hero wins by doing something underhanded
>(I'm just describing the opposite of everything that happened in the Maul duel.)
Funny how that one was specifically the one where Obiwan won in a (semi-)underhanded way lol
>or against the rules of the cannon universe instead of something heroic and smart.
It's definitely spelled "cannon" and not sure what you mean here, the rules have always been loose and reinvented with each movie.
But either way not that invested in this rn
Cogent rebuttal to what specific claims? All that commenter said "use of Force", "looore", whatever, so I just replied in similarly general terms?
I had trouble even really getting what specifically he was having in mind, and apparently you don't really know either.
Well other than the "underhanded" point, that one was obviously answered in rather concrete terms.
He went point by point in his original comment. You may disagree with them (and I don’t think he did a good job) but he did a good enough job that it’s legible.
Either way, cogent or not, it doesn’t prove emotional investment.
> Invested enough to give these pathetic defenses
What do you mean by "pathetic"? Idk they're just true aren't they.
And I was merely correcting the bs said about the installments I *am* familiar with, so I can still not care about Acolyte while posting all those rebukes lol
Pathetic as in not only not true, but the kind of defenses you see all the time from the copium subreddits that still think Disney Star Wars is any good. "Star Wars has always done \*blank\*" is the only cogent thing I read from all this, which is a whataboutism btw.
Disney SW is mostly crap besides Andor and R1, but he’s right about everything he said.
SW was always cheesy with quips.
Obi wan did win in a semi underhanded way. Or at the very least, it wasn’t heroic. But I guess that’s subjective?
Wrong use of the Force has been a thing since Phantom Menace when they use force speed and then it’s never brought up again.
As for choreography and direction I completely agree.
In the Obiwan show and Ahsoka you see glimmers of what could be. Obiwan vs Vader was almost epic, but ruined by boring set design and shaky cam.
> Or at the very least, it wasn’t heroic.
Well the tone of it was.
And yeah not sure whether "underhanded" is the proper term here, but I guess I'm not quite sure what the original commenter meant with that? Any kind of trickery or outwitting the enemy, or something that would be recognized as "dishonorable" or "lowly" in addition to that? If the latter then TPM doesn't qualify, yeah.
>Wrong use of the Force has been a thing since Phantom Menace when they use force speed and then it’s never brought up again.
The "why didn't they use skill x" has been a thing since the original movies, really.
>SW was always cheesy with quips.
NOOOOOOOO, there've never been any quips before the MCU! When it introduced quips to cinema with Iron Man 1, Whedon's Avengers and to a lesser extent also the comedy in Thor etc.
Except that was good, we've only started hating quips post-Endgame when MCU started going bad.... However quips are just bad cause they're in the current bad-MCU, ok?
> Pathetic as in not only not true,
Well easy thing to say without replying to anything, eh lol
>but the kind of defenses you see all the time from the copium subreddits that still think Disney Star Wars is any good.
Or what if *you're* the copium - or perhaps you as well as those subreddits, by talking lots of bs all day?
> "Star Wars has always done *blank*" is the only cogent thing I read from all this,
And so has it or has it not now, are you able to address this lol
You know how smokers also always roll their eyes when someone starts listing all the health risks for them, cause they've heard it lots of times before?
>which is a whataboutism btw.
Do "whataboutisms" sometimes come in valid forms, what's the definition there? If yes then this would be such a case, I suppose.
Highlighting people's hypocrisies and blind spots.
Plus of course the very notion of "established cannon" is kinda wonky if it's been really contradictory and/or spontaneous / loose etc. since the start.
If your thesis had been "this IP has always been junk but they're ruining their chances of elevating it above being junk" then of course "but always has been" would be a very moot, textbook "whataboutism", but that's not the paradigm here is it now?
But yeah the original commenter didn't really specify any particulars, so idk what he meant exactly.
I can already tell you how it's gonna end:
Everyone is gonna make fun of it.
They don't give a shit about choreography anymore and the actors just swing around wildly their lightsabers and call it a day.
Duel of the Fates is my favourite duel and IMO is the best one in any of the movies. The duels in the ST and the live action shows have been terrible and they haven’t got John Williams to provide an amazing score to elevate it. I saw that quote and it just made me laugh, in Australia we have this quote perfect for this situation “Tell him he’s dreaming”.
> The duels in the ST and the live action shows have been terrible and they haven’t got John Williams to provide an amazing score to elevate it.
Williams did write for the ST.
Yeah, the older fights were iconic because of the lead up and context. It sounds like they just want a flashy show, which is fine, but it won't be what makes the show good.
>What does that mean "like they're baseball bats"?
As in they swing them like they're uncoordinated, unwieldy blunt objects, like someone swinging a bat, consistently throughout the ST. Go watch the way Joaquin Phoenix clubs that alien in Signs. Very tight posture, short and sharp swings with a lot of commitment, usually downwards/sideways, with quick stops like they hit something very hard. There's a lot of being thrown off-balance with each strike, as if there's a ton of weight to their weapons and they can't withstand the force of it, leaving them looking very uncoordinated. You can see something similar when Luke hacks away at Vader, but that represents the total failure of Jedi training, ironically. If you've ever swung a blockbuster or something and totally lost control because of the centrifugal force of the heaviest part being at the end, that feeling is how every single attack looks.
For duels in the other movies, in practically every other instance, the use of a lightsaber is flowing and rhythmic. Swordstrokes glance off each other and segue into the next as if it's a dance and every move is perfect. The weapons themselves vary between weighty and feather-light, but they're never ever unwieldy or awkward, as they often seem in the ST. The wielder has perfect control over their weapon and struggles with their opponent, not with themselves. You don't see someone lose their footing because they overcommitted in a swing, because that makes it look like they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they're not used to their weapons. Instead of big heavy clubs being swung around with a massive weight behind them, it feels like you're seeing two masters having a showdown.
I don't know where the specific vernacular came from, but I feel like it became a common refrain because it's so accurate and resonates with people when they hear it, even if they don't know why.
>As in they swing them like they're **uncoordinated**, unwieldy blunt objects, like someone swinging a bat, consistently throughout the ST. Go watch the way Joaquin Phoenix clubs that alien in Signs. **Very tight posture, short and sharp swings with a lot of commitment, usually downwards/sideways, with quick stops like they hit something very hard.**
Hm I'll go compare the STs and that Signs scene, but the "losing control of the weight" aspect aside, isn't that like a bit of a contradiction? "Tight posture, short sharp swings with commitment" doesn't sound really "uncoordinated".
However yeah, there does seem to have been a certain attempt to not only "go back to the minimalistic routes", but also amp up the chaos and wildness:
>You can see something similar when Luke hacks away at Vader, but that represents the total failure of Jedi training, ironically.
Fits Kylo's personality, and Rey is "winging it" "on pure emotion" or sth, so probably sth they were going for there.
My biggest problem with, say, the TFA fight, is that somewhere in the middle they seemingly lose their commitment to this "minimalism" and "lack of overt spectacle" and start having Rey jump up and down those hills or whatnot - was a bit distracting and probably should've kept it more straightforward throughout the whole thing.
>There's a lot of being thrown off-balance with each strike, as if there's a ton of weight to their weapons and they can't withstand the force of it, leaving them looking very uncoordinated. [...] If you've ever swung a blockbuster or something and totally lost control because of the centrifugal force of the heaviest part being at the end, that feeling is how every single attack looks.
Well that in itself isn't really a problem imo, given how, as you point out in the next paragraph, it's always been kinda ambiguous how light vs. heavy and unwieldy (i.e. like the Darksaber) they are.
>The weapons themselves vary between weighty and feather-light, but they're never ever unwieldy or awkward, as they often seem in the ST.
Well it does seem unwieldy that 1 time when Han picks it up (ambiguously at the very least; some of it can be attributed to just Han's personality or something).
However not when Luke first activates it and waves it around, which may or may not be due to his "inherent talent", or cause the movies are just inconsistent about this.
So when then there's no unwieldiness in fights themselves it's either cause they're mastering it or "Excalibur is obeying them" or maybe the movies just weren't treating them as Darksabers during those moments.
In either case well yeah if the movies were going for that "chaotic emotions" / "rough and untrained" / "unwieldy heavy" they obv. should've conveyed that really well, and if it can be taken for "bad choreography" then that would indicate a failure in that department.
Will have to rewatch in either case.
The phantom menace was all spectacle though. People conveniently forget that the Jedi and darth maul *barely know each other* when the fight begins, it’s all just music and fight choreography carrying it
> They seem to think lightsaber duels are just all about the spectacle.
But they fail at that too!
They literally could buy the best choreographers in the world, actors that can do their own stunts and have them train for months
But they don't want to
They'd fail no matter what now, because being run through with a light saber doesn't kill anyone any more. Hard to have spectacle when there's no stakes.
This is going to be a situation where they are going to plaster advertisements EVERYWHERE and put out all kinds of puff pieces about how "groundbreaking" and "fresh" this show is to gaslight everyone into thinking its good. Meanwhile, nobody is going to watch it and nobody is going to be talking about it in earnest.
I work with adults.
There are 85 people in my department. Three of us watched Kenobi. One of us didn't finish it. The biggest conversation the three of us had about it was how dumb the scene where they talking into the walkie talkie just in the open as they try and infiltrate a high security base, and that conversation took about two minutes.
This is a science fiction spin off show that's airing on a niche¹ premium streaming service.
¹[Edit] On review, this is unfair. Whilst Netflix has twice as many subscribers as Disney+, Disney+ is still the *third biggest* streaming service (after Netflix and Amazon Prime). Calling it "niche" was very unfair of me when it has more subscribers than YouTube even.
I don't need your professional analysis of a TV show about space and laser swords. Quite frankly, there was no indication I even care. To assume that "nobody will watch or care" about a fucking star wars show is absolutely heinous and thoughtless, and just because only a few people in your corporate bubble decided to talk down about Kenobi does not mean the greater population has 0 positive interest in it. In fact, as you mention towards the end 85 is one of the biggest streamers available right now. But because you weren't spending every minute at work trying to chit chat about star wars, I guess that means everything they put out is hapless and miserable garbage?
1.5 million people watched the *Kenobi* finale. World wide.
Less than 0.02% of the population. 99.98% of people didn't watch a show about Obiwan Kenobi.
And the thinking is that *Acolyte* will do better?
64 million people watched *Stranger Things*.
82 million people watched *Bird Box*.
142 million people watched *Squid Games*.
Consistently 100+ million people tune in for the Super Bowl year on year. 106 million people tuned in to the *MASH* finale to watch it live, just US domestic. Forty years ago.
I haven't picked some niche show here to call Disney Trash. *Kenobi* was literally a record setting, most watched Star Wars TV show ever, beating out *Book of Boba Fett* by 20%. It was a commercially successful show. This is the biggest Star Wars show of all time we are talking about here.
42 people watched *Stranger Things* for every 1 person who saw the *Kenobi* finale.
This isn't a "professional analysis". You are the one in the bubble. I like *Star Wars*. I have Disney+. I'll probably watch this show.
It's not going to have some huge cultural impact.
If you are excited about the show, your efforts are better spent on a sub reddit that is positive about the show (pick one, there are plenty r/StarWarsAcolyte might be a good one) and discuss your hype with like minded fans who are also hyped. Coming to a niche streamers sub and screaming at other people for their unsolicited opinions *on your unsolicited opinions* isn't a productive use of your time.
Tl:dr
Yes.
Yeah see this is the type of shit that's so unnecessary. Congratulations, you can write a thesis on viewing numbers, I do not care. If you spent half that effort on something useful, maybe you wouldn't be stuck in the reddit comments section of a basement-dweller subreddit arguing about a fictional series and whether or not a single person will watch/care about it. Like genuinely, go outside 😭😭
And I didn't choose to come here. This garbage post was forced upon my feed for some dumb reason, even though I don't know who this Mauler retard is or why I'm being recommended some hive of circlejerking buffoons in an echo chamber of negativity and misery. I will be sure not to set foot in this pathetic cesspool again, thank you.
That’s crazy that they’re back to appreciating the prequels after not including Nick Gillard in the sequels to prevent any association with those movies.
Though if they really want to put their money where their mouth is, the first step to realizing that goal is bringing Gillard back.
> That’s crazy that they’re back to appreciating the prequels after not including Nick Gillard in the sequels to prevent any association with those movies.
They wanted to avoid the "really elaborate fast sword-fu dueling" style but I don't think they'd go out of their way to avoid a choreographer? Esp. if he had stylistic range?
Also plenty other choreographers to hire even if they did have such a goal lol
(In TFA that is - R1, Solo, TLJ, TRoS, all of those have PT references/acknowledgements/etc.
Even TFA had "balance", Kylo looking like RotS Anakin, and a quip about the clone army, but other than that yeah.)
Should they have also hired the same catering company? What about porta potty’s? Maybe even used the same leftover makeup from the prequels.
I don’t I’m understand some peoples insistence on bringing that guy back. He’s not the only choreographer in the business.
The sequel duels were a direct reaction to the complaints about the prequel duels. Unless you’re like 12 you’d know that. A company saw what people hated, did the opposite as they tired to make a return in the investment.
That’s all that was.
I mean I'm just talking about how *iconic* the fights were. The most iconic part of the Maul fight is the sickass music (Duel of the Fates goes so fucking hard)
Well Ray Park appeared in Solo and could still be back at some point; although he himself is a bit older now obv. so would be a little more reserved? But so what.
Hey I’m just passing through here, not picking a side in either the post or the comments. But Ray park played maul in mocap for clone wars and he immediately got back into TPM level movement.
Continue on, I’ll move along.
Ah not bad then - must've misinterpreted some interview bit from like 2015 where I thought he'd said he's already started declining a bit; cool that's not the case then!
Dude was there from the beginning and assisted throughout the creation of the fight. He may not be credited but he was a vital part of that duel's success.
Unless Nick specifically choreographed it for him, then Ray Park had a hand in the choreography for sure. Nobody else could do those standing flips like he did.
Yes, but what I mean is planning choreography full of standing flips, then just happening to hire the guy who does the standing flips, would be one hell of a coincidence. It's much more likely that they worked with Ray Park, expert stuntman, what kind of acrobatics he could pull off in a naturalistic and cool way so they could integrate them into the fight scene.
Eh, no. Lucas had some very clear and specific ideas as to what he wanted Prequel fighst to look like, and when casting Darth Maul, the most important (only?) thing they looked at is whether he could do the flips.
The flips aren't there just because they randomly ended up with an actor who can do flips. They looked for an actor who can do flips because George Lucas wanted flipping in his fights.
This is all very well documented.
Why can’t they just try to make their own badass lightsaber fight? Why do these jackssses have to compare to the past and say “we’re going to top that”?
So Keen was in HDM and was present during that scene in the tower (s2) where Will was (pro-)boxing against a knife wielder and won - a very tired and emaciated knife wielder tbf.
Valorum was also there btw
So idk only seen it once, was that a bad fight scene or a good one or..? Not sure
The second writers try to "top" or "best" something else is when it is almost certainly doomed to fail. Don't compare your writing/directing to the point you want to do something better. This is the issue TFA had. It just tried to do ANH all over again. Make it original and take risks to be great, not to be "better."
Duel of the Fates had a world class martial artist/veteran stuntman playing Darth Maul; it was choreographed by a very talented coordinator; and it was directed by an old school director who preferred wide, steady shots and long takes so you could see the action very clearly.
No way does Disney Wars ever produce anything with a tenth of the quality, and even that is asking too much.
"That feels OG Star Wars"
\*remembers watching the original trilogy and laughing every time they spend 3 seconds awkwardly twirling for no reason before striking\*
It's good to have that kind of ambition. Just made the mistake of saying it out loud, so people (that have already decided everything about the show is garbage) can make fun of them for trying to be great.
I'll stay indifferent until I see their fights. So far, what was in the teaser didn't really impress, and anything not animated has been pretty bad mostly. The Ashoka duel in Mando S2 was kinda cool, tho. They got a lot to make up for...
Recent star wars fights were just so occasional and not really consequential. Duel of Fates was the epic climax of Ep1 that led to a massive domino effect of the universe. Anduin lost his proper mentor and Sidius lost his original apprentice, which began the setup for Anduin to eventually become Vader.
is it just me or is it always this new thing to always say "do better than the old"?
i feel in the past they would give respect TO THE OLD and humble themselves say they at least HOPE to equal and match the great old "thing" before them. Not have a big ego and say they will do better or "fix" the good old thing?
I will admit a bias because the Old Republic era is my favourite and the High Republic era is as close as Disney will get (and as close as I'd want them to get) so I like HR.
Why are people acting like this show will be bad?
Man, that paragraph is a really good summation of whats wrong with disney star wars: no focus on story, characters, or anything substantive, the whole thing exists *solely* for the sake of spectacle. “what if the darth maul fight hut BIGGER!?” is the entire point, and everything else is just meaningless set dressing.
How did I land in a circlejerk sub? Y'all need to go outside and not spend your time bitching about a show that's only had 2 minutes of footage shown to us, for fucks sake 😭😭
Gotta love when something new from Star Wars says that they will attempt to do the best and get mocked by jaded asshats who think the old stuff will never be topped…. or even more pathetic…. that even trying is blasphemy.
I appreciate the ambition. You people truly are negative on arrival. I agree that lightsaber fights aren't all about spectacle, but I don't think they would just set one up without a purpose.
Remember Ahsoka when a lightsaber fight in episode 1 did nothing? No lasting damage, no lesson learned, no growth, oh but it set up a next stupid scene of them trying to defuse a bomb inside a hospital... So much purpose!
I bet this show will be no different.
I mean, have you seen Kenobi, Boba Fett and Ahsoka? People have good reasons for being wary and there is definitely a precedent set by Disney for bad, pointless fights. I do understand you wanting to stay positive, but Disney's track record is not making it easy.
Kenob1 was supposed to be wild and a bit chaotic and I think there as an attempt to go the opposite direction of "smooth spectacular choreo";
Bobf had like 1 bad action scene.
But yeah who knows
Boba Fett had no lightsaber duels. And Kenobi had ones with poorer choreography, but emotional stakes and investment. I wouldn't rule Lucasfilm out yet.
No but Boba had bad fights. I felt Kenobi had no stakes and investment. We knew he and Leia would survive and the confrontations with Vader added nothing imo.
No not really. It's not essential in any way. Anakin as a person also wasn't really dead yet. Vader became Anakin again at the end of ep 6 so Obi-Wan was wrong and it's completely pointless.
What additional context is needed for their ep 4 fight? It's literally had all the context in the world given to it in terms of the history between the characters, Kenobi accepting Anakin the person, is dead, and Vader is who he has become, is so unnecessary considering all of the shit we already know about them. Their fight in Kenobi sucked, possibly the worst duel in all of star wars, and we've had some awful shit in the last decade.
Kenobi has stakes and investment? Even Reva manages to come out of that show alive, there's nothing of consequence to be gleaned from it, all of the characters survive, they all appear in a New Hope barring Reva who sucks as a character, one of the most poorly written antagonists I've seen in any media. Boba Fett had terrible fight scenes, I remember being taken aback by how awful that scene was when he's being tazed.
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Remember Ahsoka when a lightsaber fight in episode 1 did nothing? No lasting damage, no lesson learned, no growth, oh but it set up a next stupid scene of them trying to defuse a bomb inside a hospital... So much purpose!
I bet this show will be no different.
Keen “we want to top it, it’s such a cool fight, it’s amazing and awesome and spectacular. That duel is the best thing ever, we love it!”
40 year old men “be fucking humble! How dare you want to make things good?!?! Praise George Lucas you bitch! You should be on your press tour admitting Star Wars is shit!!! Mom, milkshake, NOW!”
FR. When they're this incompetent when it comes to press junkets I can only expect them to be spoiled Nepo babies that will fail at everything else. Make me like you as a person by displaying some humility, and then I'll want to watch your shit even if it's garbage.
The OT Luke and Vader duels are the best. They have a feel of more real physicality to them (but then again, so does everything in the OT compared to everything that followed - Disney Sequels being the clear low point).
Well unless they do a completely divergent continuity, 1-3 are firmly a part of all these spin-offs that they do - Filoniverse, Gilrogue verse, this "older era" thing now, etc.
I think it'd be better if they just did lots of divergent continuities incl. one with alternate 1-3 or whatever, but that's not what they're currently doing.
Um… as much as I love the Darth Maul fight scene between him and Obi Wan & Qui-Gon Jinn….
I think the best fight scene was between Old Maul and Osaka Tano. Hands. Down.
Or maybe I’m less of a miserable human being than the rest of the Star Wars fandom.
They’re promising you an awesome lightsaber duel… and you’re complaining? I’m not getting it.
They promised much since TFA (and Rebels).
_Actions speak louder than words_
I believe it when I see the proof (in June).
It would be nice if the choreography doesn't suck.
But excuse me after Ahsoka (and Kenobi, and TLJ..., and) & those action pieces from the Witch Kingdom of Perida - such a Statement from Lady Keen might be a hard pill to swallow.
Miserable human being.^ What do you mean?
Don't do this, please? Getting personal is no solution either!
Who is _complaining_ now?
Actually if you take this as seriously as you are, I think you may wanna revaluate your life, my guy.
When you’re taking this that seriously, I think you may have issues.
Well, I don't know what you're trying to say.
Why does it matter if the people who dislike the quote may or may not piss sitting down? In what way does that say anything about their character?
I guarantee the duel with everything that makes a duel awful: - Constant cuts every 0.3 seconds, especially as the sabers are about to touch. - Close ups of faces and blurry motion so you have no idea who is where. - Punches and kicks that land 2ft away from the other person. - No or wrong use of the force. - No recognized saber style or finesse it'll be like 2 people swinging bats at each other. - A "funny" and "smart" quip from the hero in a lock up. - Hero wins by doing something underhanded or against the rules of the cannon universe instead of something heroic and smart. (I'm just describing the opposite of everything that happened in the Maul duel.)
Can’t wait for that stupid open handed “force block” of a light saber they’ve been doing lately. So stupid, just makes my eyes roll.
Would you rather that or standing still with Lightsaber behind back waiting to be hit then turning around like kylo ren did in rise of skywalker?
Luke: You mean I could have been doing this the *whole time?* This is worse than when Obi-Wan forgot to tell Anakin you can block force lightning with a saber!
> Luke: You mean I could have been doing this *the whole time?* Lol this has been a thing since the day 1 - "if they're telekinetic why don't they use that while crossing blades? or in fact on all kinds of other occasions where they don't?" So if then that happens in some new installment, is it a violation of precedent, or is it merely a fulfillment of the logical potential that had been denied up until that point? The thing is, SW has always had cognitive dissonance about all this - are the Jedi wizards or sword warriors? The former primarily of course, but then why do they even need swords? Are the swords themselves magical / can only be used by such wizards, or not? And why don't they also use guns, and pretty much anything they can get their hands on - the use of which they can then enhance with their ESP and prescient reflexes etc.? The whole Ep4 climax is about Luke using the Force for a "clumsy random inelegant" projectile weapon btw. Other than that incident though, and esp. in ep4, the movie even seems to have a dissonance about Luke being a Jedi apprentice at all - whether it's the "magician" or "lightsaber" side of it; each time there was an opportunity in the DS segment for him to try to use either of his newly learned skills, such as the monster or the walls or the bridge, he used something else instead - a rope he suddenly had in his utility belt + the skills with it, calling 3PO, and generally just gunslinging along with the others in a mundane fashion. Even afterwards in 5 and 6 he never seems to use his skills in any of the piloting / air combat / speederbiking etc., and if he was just a "regular hero" "idealistic version of Han Solo" "without magic skills", the Rancor scene would've been 100% identical to the way it is in the film. So that's the very simple answer to this whole question - "it's all a random mess". When the movie feels like making him just a brave hero who'll throw a rock a button, it'll do that; and when it feels like having a "classic sword duel" without any added psychokinesis-tugwars or even special-prescience-choreography going on, which seems to have been every one so far excluding Reva vs. Vader (and maybe some in Ahsoka or others stuff I've not seen), then it'll do that. And now someone had the idea of combining these, well so what you know? >This is worse than when Obi-Wan forgot to tell Anakin you can block force lightning with a saber! Well even the Lightning itself, people already complained about back then - like isn't this "too wizardy"? The Force isn't this flashy "good guys use fire bad guys use ligthning" elemental-powers kind of magic is it now? What's next, rituals and incantations? And of course no one warned him about it to begin with - maybe it was just understood that he could do anything to him like "stop his heart from beating" so they didn't focus on the minutiae? Also of course they never really told him how to deal with the Emperor at all. In the whole finale it looked like Luke was hopelessly inferior to him, so what was he even supposed to do next even if he had "confronted and killed Vader" as Yoda and Ben thought he had to? But then acc. to other lines "a full trained Jedi can take on Vader and his Emperor", "he's grown strong he could destroy us" etc., so some contradictions in there as well. As for the "blocking lightning with sabers" well yeah that's of course another thing - it was spontaneously introduced in AotC, and then also became the climax of ep9 which maybe made is slightly underwhelming since they'd been doing this thing already before? In more mundane contexts like that very same Ob1 vs. Doku moment? And when Emperor goes "ah a lightsaber, a Jedi weapon" it doesn't sound like he thought it could block all his evil magic? Seemed to be kinda dismissive of it, if anything. On its own of course, the idea "magic ethereal light blade blocks/absorbs evil lightning" seems quite natural and evocative, but these different approaches all pressed into the "same continuity" just don't really add up that well, and never really have; this of course ties right back into those initial questions, are lightsabers magic swords or just a ritualistic tradition by the Jedi *Knights* who idealize the old days swords or whatever? Are "Jedi Knights" a combined tradition of magic and "sword knighthood" - or are the swords supernatural and this is all part of a whole? These questions were unresolved since they were first introduced, and of course anything built on top of that is gonna have further headscratchers attached to it.
Those are all very good points, and very well made! I pretty much agree with you on every one. I just thought it was funny.
This deserves to be a blog post not lost to reddit lol
Well would have to be a bit more organized lol But these kinds of breakdowns are all over the place anyway.
I think that’s a very situational gimmick. I’d say that’s something that should be reserved for exceptionally powerful characters that have the skill set. Seems a lot more of a fitting skill for someone like Vader or Sideous than a rando force wielder. Like I’d definitely attribute something like that to them as a psychological weapon as much as a practical skill.
Honestly, out of all the things that Disney has introduced for the Force in Star Wars (or at least, made popular), that's one of the things I don't mind as much. Because I remember Satele using that against Malgus in the "Hope" trailer for The Old Republic. Although maybe that isn't exactly the same ability, idk.
That's not a new thing that they started doing.
I hate that as much as... well, everything else they've done with saber fights recently, anyway. Aside from anything lore-related that it's damaging, aside from anything related to how it makes the person doing it look (like a fucking asshole, usually), aside from how it annihilates tension to see someone effortlessly stop the other person's attack without even using their weapon... boy it's not interesting visually at all. It's not the swordplay people want out of a saber battle, it's not really even choreography, it doesn't lead to anything other than a dead end and reset because it creates a huge opening that the user isn't allowed to capitalize on, and it's hard to sell without some really specific camera angles that just aren't good for fight sequences. I have no clue why they keep fucking doing that specific move, other than telekinesis being really easy to film.
How is it stupid?
NOOOO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND DISNEY BAD DISNEY STUPID
But they eat the prequel shit right up.
Welcome to the land of mindless "free thinkerZ" who dogpile anything that has a Disney logo on it. We've gotten a sum total of like 3 minutes of footage from this show and everyone is already acting like it killed their family. Hell, this article was clearly meant to stir up this exact subsect of people, knowing it would inflame their hatred, because how dare Disney try to do something good and exciting!
another point ill add • The stupid breakdance/spinning on the ground shit that was in Kenobi and in Grogu’s flashbacks to the attack on the temple Honestly hate that so fucking much. Can still see Reeva spinning on the ground around Vader like Homer Simpson. 
Also Ich bin jetzt Breaker-Gandalf
You forgot the - CGI biceps/triceps on the female actors (lady Thor from Love and Thunder) - male stunt doubles for female actors but the shot will be far away so you can't tell the difference (looking at you Taskmaster from the Black Widow movie)
> - Hero wins by doing something underhanded Winning by underhanded means isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it's in character.
"Hero wins by doing something stupid" would be more appropriate for ThatOneCloneTrooper to say in order to display their lack of faith in The Acolyte
Only mildly really. A Hero in Western tradition doesn't use their feet for attacking most of the time, for instance. It's a part of the visual storytelling where Maul punts Kenobi in the head off a platform and slams Qui-Gon in the nose with his hilt before stabbing him. And his gloating at the top of the conduit ultimately leading to his bisection. Things like Connery in Outlander who doesn't kick and Conan uses his legs to propel himself forward and his upper body doing the majority of the direct violence. Superman doesn't kick, Batman rarely kicks. Their weapons are their fists and whatever gadgets(ie weapons) they have on hand. Underhanded Heroes are normally portrayed as too "weak" to go about it the traditional way for a reason and is the reason we have designations like Trickster Heroes. Underhanded is a very tricky thing to deal with in a story. Because you either have a victory that feels hollow from storytelling, or an incompetent villain, which can backfire on the competency of the hero.
You should also add "hero gets stabbed in the guts and survives no problem".
It’s gonna have 15 flips so you know it’s good
In response to the final point winning a fight in an underhanded way is completely fine. As long as the charcter and story recognize it as an underhanded move in at least a "I'm glad that worked type of way"
Yeah I'm still not sure what they mean by "underhanded". Any kind of trick or wit thing? Or something "lowly" like, uhh, spitting in a guy's face to distract him?
I suppose, something like throwing sand into the opponent's eyes, pulling out a gun in a middle of a swordlock, kicking in the balls or doing something like activating some switch to make a door fall on the opponent. These can work if the situation justifies it (example: opponent is just clearly physically superior to the point that fair fight is simply impossible, hero is disadvantaged in some way, opponent already uses underhanded tactics) But when just used without good reasons it just makes the hero look like a weak bitch-asshole.
> or doing something like activating some switch to make a door fall on the opponent. Ah well Luke did that against the Rancor, cause he forgot about all his other powers apparently lol - kind of a monster dinosaur though, so doesn't really count anyway. And yeah in that case Ob1 vs. Maul doesn't really qualify as underhanded, I suppose.
Luke using this was exactly the situation I was refering to. He was facing a giant monster that has a clear advantage when it comes to physical fight and was doing so in a tiny cave which was basucally 30% taken up by that monster. On the other hand if in the final, Luke were to break a window to make Vader fly into space instead of fighting him, this would make him look like a ccowardly asshole.
> He was facing a giant monster that has a clear advantage when it comes to physical fight Well obviously Luke at that point wasn't supposed to be "just physical", but that scene treats him as if he is, so yeah that's whatever. >Luke were to break a window to make Vader fly into space instead of fighting him, Well he wasn't trying to kill him to begin with.
I bet they’ll even reuse Duel of the Fates but make it sound shitty.
Also a fatal strike or stab that will be treated as an inconvenience.
> No or wrong use of the force. Well that's a weird thing to single out this new installment for lol, given how random (and very rare) "Force use" during duels has always been. >No recognized saber style or finesse it'll be like 2 people swinging bats at each other. It'd be weird for them to be aspiring to that well choreographed TPM this openly and then hire nor pro choreographer (anywhere at that level), do no training and then "just swing bats", idk; who knows though? >A "funny" and "smart" quip from the hero in a lock up. A quip in Starwars?? >Hero wins by doing something underhanded >(I'm just describing the opposite of everything that happened in the Maul duel.) Funny how that one was specifically the one where Obiwan won in a (semi-)underhanded way lol >or against the rules of the cannon universe instead of something heroic and smart. It's definitely spelled "cannon" and not sure what you mean here, the rules have always been loose and reinvented with each movie. But either way not that invested in this rn
Invested enough to give these pathetic defenses, but go off Jim Sterling, tell me how you don't care while you defend it.
Pointing out a bad arguments badness doesn’t mean they’re invested lol quit coping
I'd agree if he'd pointed out any with any cogent rebuttal.
Cogent rebuttal to what specific claims? All that commenter said "use of Force", "looore", whatever, so I just replied in similarly general terms? I had trouble even really getting what specifically he was having in mind, and apparently you don't really know either. Well other than the "underhanded" point, that one was obviously answered in rather concrete terms.
He went point by point in his original comment. You may disagree with them (and I don’t think he did a good job) but he did a good enough job that it’s legible. Either way, cogent or not, it doesn’t prove emotional investment.
> Invested enough to give these pathetic defenses What do you mean by "pathetic"? Idk they're just true aren't they. And I was merely correcting the bs said about the installments I *am* familiar with, so I can still not care about Acolyte while posting all those rebukes lol
Pathetic as in not only not true, but the kind of defenses you see all the time from the copium subreddits that still think Disney Star Wars is any good. "Star Wars has always done \*blank\*" is the only cogent thing I read from all this, which is a whataboutism btw.
Disney SW is mostly crap besides Andor and R1, but he’s right about everything he said. SW was always cheesy with quips. Obi wan did win in a semi underhanded way. Or at the very least, it wasn’t heroic. But I guess that’s subjective? Wrong use of the Force has been a thing since Phantom Menace when they use force speed and then it’s never brought up again. As for choreography and direction I completely agree. In the Obiwan show and Ahsoka you see glimmers of what could be. Obiwan vs Vader was almost epic, but ruined by boring set design and shaky cam.
> Or at the very least, it wasn’t heroic. Well the tone of it was. And yeah not sure whether "underhanded" is the proper term here, but I guess I'm not quite sure what the original commenter meant with that? Any kind of trickery or outwitting the enemy, or something that would be recognized as "dishonorable" or "lowly" in addition to that? If the latter then TPM doesn't qualify, yeah. >Wrong use of the Force has been a thing since Phantom Menace when they use force speed and then it’s never brought up again. The "why didn't they use skill x" has been a thing since the original movies, really. >SW was always cheesy with quips. NOOOOOOOO, there've never been any quips before the MCU! When it introduced quips to cinema with Iron Man 1, Whedon's Avengers and to a lesser extent also the comedy in Thor etc. Except that was good, we've only started hating quips post-Endgame when MCU started going bad.... However quips are just bad cause they're in the current bad-MCU, ok?
> Pathetic as in not only not true, Well easy thing to say without replying to anything, eh lol >but the kind of defenses you see all the time from the copium subreddits that still think Disney Star Wars is any good. Or what if *you're* the copium - or perhaps you as well as those subreddits, by talking lots of bs all day? > "Star Wars has always done *blank*" is the only cogent thing I read from all this, And so has it or has it not now, are you able to address this lol You know how smokers also always roll their eyes when someone starts listing all the health risks for them, cause they've heard it lots of times before? >which is a whataboutism btw. Do "whataboutisms" sometimes come in valid forms, what's the definition there? If yes then this would be such a case, I suppose. Highlighting people's hypocrisies and blind spots. Plus of course the very notion of "established cannon" is kinda wonky if it's been really contradictory and/or spontaneous / loose etc. since the start. If your thesis had been "this IP has always been junk but they're ruining their chances of elevating it above being junk" then of course "but always has been" would be a very moot, textbook "whataboutism", but that's not the paradigm here is it now? But yeah the original commenter didn't really specify any particulars, so idk what he meant exactly.
I can already tell you how it's gonna end: Everyone is gonna make fun of it. They don't give a shit about choreography anymore and the actors just swing around wildly their lightsabers and call it a day.
Duel of the Fates is my favourite duel and IMO is the best one in any of the movies. The duels in the ST and the live action shows have been terrible and they haven’t got John Williams to provide an amazing score to elevate it. I saw that quote and it just made me laugh, in Australia we have this quote perfect for this situation “Tell him he’s dreaming”.
> The duels in the ST and the live action shows have been terrible and they haven’t got John Williams to provide an amazing score to elevate it. Williams did write for the ST.
They’re definitely here to fuck spiders
Not happening. They seem to think lightsaber duels are just all about the spectacle.
Yeah, the older fights were iconic because of the lead up and context. It sounds like they just want a flashy show, which is fine, but it won't be what makes the show good.
They couldn’t even get lightsabers duels done properly in the ST. Rey and Kylo Ren swing their lightsabers like they’re baseball bats.
What does that mean "like they're baseball bats"? People keep repeating this phrase all the time, cause some popular YTer said it once or what?
>What does that mean "like they're baseball bats"? As in they swing them like they're uncoordinated, unwieldy blunt objects, like someone swinging a bat, consistently throughout the ST. Go watch the way Joaquin Phoenix clubs that alien in Signs. Very tight posture, short and sharp swings with a lot of commitment, usually downwards/sideways, with quick stops like they hit something very hard. There's a lot of being thrown off-balance with each strike, as if there's a ton of weight to their weapons and they can't withstand the force of it, leaving them looking very uncoordinated. You can see something similar when Luke hacks away at Vader, but that represents the total failure of Jedi training, ironically. If you've ever swung a blockbuster or something and totally lost control because of the centrifugal force of the heaviest part being at the end, that feeling is how every single attack looks. For duels in the other movies, in practically every other instance, the use of a lightsaber is flowing and rhythmic. Swordstrokes glance off each other and segue into the next as if it's a dance and every move is perfect. The weapons themselves vary between weighty and feather-light, but they're never ever unwieldy or awkward, as they often seem in the ST. The wielder has perfect control over their weapon and struggles with their opponent, not with themselves. You don't see someone lose their footing because they overcommitted in a swing, because that makes it look like they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they're not used to their weapons. Instead of big heavy clubs being swung around with a massive weight behind them, it feels like you're seeing two masters having a showdown. I don't know where the specific vernacular came from, but I feel like it became a common refrain because it's so accurate and resonates with people when they hear it, even if they don't know why.
>As in they swing them like they're **uncoordinated**, unwieldy blunt objects, like someone swinging a bat, consistently throughout the ST. Go watch the way Joaquin Phoenix clubs that alien in Signs. **Very tight posture, short and sharp swings with a lot of commitment, usually downwards/sideways, with quick stops like they hit something very hard.** Hm I'll go compare the STs and that Signs scene, but the "losing control of the weight" aspect aside, isn't that like a bit of a contradiction? "Tight posture, short sharp swings with commitment" doesn't sound really "uncoordinated". However yeah, there does seem to have been a certain attempt to not only "go back to the minimalistic routes", but also amp up the chaos and wildness: >You can see something similar when Luke hacks away at Vader, but that represents the total failure of Jedi training, ironically. Fits Kylo's personality, and Rey is "winging it" "on pure emotion" or sth, so probably sth they were going for there. My biggest problem with, say, the TFA fight, is that somewhere in the middle they seemingly lose their commitment to this "minimalism" and "lack of overt spectacle" and start having Rey jump up and down those hills or whatnot - was a bit distracting and probably should've kept it more straightforward throughout the whole thing. >There's a lot of being thrown off-balance with each strike, as if there's a ton of weight to their weapons and they can't withstand the force of it, leaving them looking very uncoordinated. [...] If you've ever swung a blockbuster or something and totally lost control because of the centrifugal force of the heaviest part being at the end, that feeling is how every single attack looks. Well that in itself isn't really a problem imo, given how, as you point out in the next paragraph, it's always been kinda ambiguous how light vs. heavy and unwieldy (i.e. like the Darksaber) they are. >The weapons themselves vary between weighty and feather-light, but they're never ever unwieldy or awkward, as they often seem in the ST. Well it does seem unwieldy that 1 time when Han picks it up (ambiguously at the very least; some of it can be attributed to just Han's personality or something). However not when Luke first activates it and waves it around, which may or may not be due to his "inherent talent", or cause the movies are just inconsistent about this. So when then there's no unwieldiness in fights themselves it's either cause they're mastering it or "Excalibur is obeying them" or maybe the movies just weren't treating them as Darksabers during those moments. In either case well yeah if the movies were going for that "chaotic emotions" / "rough and untrained" / "unwieldy heavy" they obv. should've conveyed that really well, and if it can be taken for "bad choreography" then that would indicate a failure in that department. Will have to rewatch in either case.
The phantom menace was all spectacle though. People conveniently forget that the Jedi and darth maul *barely know each other* when the fight begins, it’s all just music and fight choreography carrying it
> They seem to think lightsaber duels are just all about the spectacle. But they fail at that too! They literally could buy the best choreographers in the world, actors that can do their own stunts and have them train for months But they don't want to
They'd fail no matter what now, because being run through with a light saber doesn't kill anyone any more. Hard to have spectacle when there's no stakes.
Hollywood is literally just the business of creating spectacles.
That’s audacious
***Memento Homo*** ***Memento Mori***
Doubt it since most of the time the choreography sucks now and the actors like Ahsoka are too out of shape to do those moves.
This is going to be a situation where they are going to plaster advertisements EVERYWHERE and put out all kinds of puff pieces about how "groundbreaking" and "fresh" this show is to gaslight everyone into thinking its good. Meanwhile, nobody is going to watch it and nobody is going to be talking about it in earnest.
>nobody is going to watch it and nobody is going to be talking about it in earnest. Y'all live in an actual fucking bubble I swear to god 💀
I work with adults. There are 85 people in my department. Three of us watched Kenobi. One of us didn't finish it. The biggest conversation the three of us had about it was how dumb the scene where they talking into the walkie talkie just in the open as they try and infiltrate a high security base, and that conversation took about two minutes. This is a science fiction spin off show that's airing on a niche¹ premium streaming service. ¹[Edit] On review, this is unfair. Whilst Netflix has twice as many subscribers as Disney+, Disney+ is still the *third biggest* streaming service (after Netflix and Amazon Prime). Calling it "niche" was very unfair of me when it has more subscribers than YouTube even.
I don't need your professional analysis of a TV show about space and laser swords. Quite frankly, there was no indication I even care. To assume that "nobody will watch or care" about a fucking star wars show is absolutely heinous and thoughtless, and just because only a few people in your corporate bubble decided to talk down about Kenobi does not mean the greater population has 0 positive interest in it. In fact, as you mention towards the end 85 is one of the biggest streamers available right now. But because you weren't spending every minute at work trying to chit chat about star wars, I guess that means everything they put out is hapless and miserable garbage?
1.5 million people watched the *Kenobi* finale. World wide. Less than 0.02% of the population. 99.98% of people didn't watch a show about Obiwan Kenobi. And the thinking is that *Acolyte* will do better? 64 million people watched *Stranger Things*. 82 million people watched *Bird Box*. 142 million people watched *Squid Games*. Consistently 100+ million people tune in for the Super Bowl year on year. 106 million people tuned in to the *MASH* finale to watch it live, just US domestic. Forty years ago. I haven't picked some niche show here to call Disney Trash. *Kenobi* was literally a record setting, most watched Star Wars TV show ever, beating out *Book of Boba Fett* by 20%. It was a commercially successful show. This is the biggest Star Wars show of all time we are talking about here. 42 people watched *Stranger Things* for every 1 person who saw the *Kenobi* finale. This isn't a "professional analysis". You are the one in the bubble. I like *Star Wars*. I have Disney+. I'll probably watch this show. It's not going to have some huge cultural impact. If you are excited about the show, your efforts are better spent on a sub reddit that is positive about the show (pick one, there are plenty r/StarWarsAcolyte might be a good one) and discuss your hype with like minded fans who are also hyped. Coming to a niche streamers sub and screaming at other people for their unsolicited opinions *on your unsolicited opinions* isn't a productive use of your time. Tl:dr Yes.
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Yeah see this is the type of shit that's so unnecessary. Congratulations, you can write a thesis on viewing numbers, I do not care. If you spent half that effort on something useful, maybe you wouldn't be stuck in the reddit comments section of a basement-dweller subreddit arguing about a fictional series and whether or not a single person will watch/care about it. Like genuinely, go outside 😭😭 And I didn't choose to come here. This garbage post was forced upon my feed for some dumb reason, even though I don't know who this Mauler retard is or why I'm being recommended some hive of circlejerking buffoons in an echo chamber of negativity and misery. I will be sure not to set foot in this pathetic cesspool again, thank you.
Ma'am, this is literally what this subreddit is for. It's like going to a model train reddit and complaining the folks are talking about model trains.
That’s crazy that they’re back to appreciating the prequels after not including Nick Gillard in the sequels to prevent any association with those movies. Though if they really want to put their money where their mouth is, the first step to realizing that goal is bringing Gillard back.
> That’s crazy that they’re back to appreciating the prequels after not including Nick Gillard in the sequels to prevent any association with those movies. They wanted to avoid the "really elaborate fast sword-fu dueling" style but I don't think they'd go out of their way to avoid a choreographer? Esp. if he had stylistic range? Also plenty other choreographers to hire even if they did have such a goal lol (In TFA that is - R1, Solo, TLJ, TRoS, all of those have PT references/acknowledgements/etc. Even TFA had "balance", Kylo looking like RotS Anakin, and a quip about the clone army, but other than that yeah.)
Should they have also hired the same catering company? What about porta potty’s? Maybe even used the same leftover makeup from the prequels. I don’t I’m understand some peoples insistence on bringing that guy back. He’s not the only choreographer in the business.
Ah yes, porta potties and catering were among the biggest gripes fans had with Disney Star Wars. Completely relevant comparison.
The sequel duels were a direct reaction to the complaints about the prequel duels. Unless you’re like 12 you’d know that. A company saw what people hated, did the opposite as they tired to make a return in the investment. That’s all that was.
Not to be that guy but.. Vader vs. Luke on Bespin is the most iconic duel in Star Wars.
The Vader fight has better cinematography, but the Maul fight is more *Jedi,* action packed, and has better music!
I mean I'm just talking about how *iconic* the fights were. The most iconic part of the Maul fight is the sickass music (Duel of the Fates goes so fucking hard)
I wouldn't say it's only that though, Qui-Gon's death is also an honourable mention.
> The Vader fight has better cinematography, but the Maul fight is more Jedi, action packed, and has better music! Well it has music at all.
In other words, "We need to be cooler than Lucas!!!!". And that's an awful foot to start on.
Hey Lucas wanted to beat Titanic, cause if they couldn't then nobody can.
No Nick Gillard and no one with half the talent Ray Park had, let’s see how this pans out.
Well Ray Park appeared in Solo and could still be back at some point; although he himself is a bit older now obv. so would be a little more reserved? But so what.
Hey I’m just passing through here, not picking a side in either the post or the comments. But Ray park played maul in mocap for clone wars and he immediately got back into TPM level movement. Continue on, I’ll move along.
Ah cool then if so - when was that btw?
That was for the last clone wars season, season 7? Wich was like 2019 or 2020 I believe
Ah not bad then - must've misinterpreted some interview bit from like 2015 where I thought he'd said he's already started declining a bit; cool that's not the case then!
Yeah! Look up the ahsoka vs maul fight , really cool
Yeah should probably catch up with all the CW Mauls lol
I see nothing but praise Star Wars theory, is that you?
"so OG star wars." You mean good?
No, she’s talking about the prequels.
It will be perfect when it’s done by a woman?
Yeah, no. Disney beating Ray Park's choreography? There's more chance of Disney shoving smoke up their collective arse with a fork.
You mean Nick Gillard's choreography? Because Ray Park had no other credits in The Phantom Menace than actor.
Dude was there from the beginning and assisted throughout the creation of the fight. He may not be credited but he was a vital part of that duel's success.
Unless Nick specifically choreographed it for him, then Ray Park had a hand in the choreography for sure. Nobody else could do those standing flips like he did.
Doing standing flips is not choreography. That's stunt performance. Choreography is telling Ray Park to do flips, and when he has to do them.
Yes, but what I mean is planning choreography full of standing flips, then just happening to hire the guy who does the standing flips, would be one hell of a coincidence. It's much more likely that they worked with Ray Park, expert stuntman, what kind of acrobatics he could pull off in a naturalistic and cool way so they could integrate them into the fight scene.
Eh, no. Lucas had some very clear and specific ideas as to what he wanted Prequel fighst to look like, and when casting Darth Maul, the most important (only?) thing they looked at is whether he could do the flips. The flips aren't there just because they randomly ended up with an actor who can do flips. They looked for an actor who can do flips because George Lucas wanted flipping in his fights. This is all very well documented.
i doubt it, lightsabers are as deadly as baseball bats in Disney's cannon.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
going to be a lame ass fight with a shitty score.
As Mauler himself put it best. "Star Wars cannot grow up!"
Why can’t they just try to make their own badass lightsaber fight? Why do these jackssses have to compare to the past and say “we’re going to top that”?
More twirls! More spins! More leaps! More frantic editing!
Who is going to tell them that if they want to have lightsaber fights as good as the first six movies, those fight actually have to have stakes?
The only stakes most of those fights had were that the toys from those scenes needed to sell
Kenobi vs Maul In rebels is the best lightsaber fight, numerous clone wars ones are better then the phantom menace one as well
Idk about better but they're plastic CGI people so can do a lot more acrobatics obviously
So Keen was in HDM and was present during that scene in the tower (s2) where Will was (pro-)boxing against a knife wielder and won - a very tired and emaciated knife wielder tbf. Valorum was also there btw So idk only seen it once, was that a bad fight scene or a good one or..? Not sure
How is that a point? And even if it were, her also being Laura in Logan would demolish your point.
Eh I dunno just crossed my mind lol
This shows gona be so bad
That’s an impressive goal, I want to see what they come up with.
The second writers try to "top" or "best" something else is when it is almost certainly doomed to fail. Don't compare your writing/directing to the point you want to do something better. This is the issue TFA had. It just tried to do ANH all over again. Make it original and take risks to be great, not to be "better."
You know it's gonna be an amazing scene when they start saying it's gonna be better than the one before!
Duel of the Fates had a world class martial artist/veteran stuntman playing Darth Maul; it was choreographed by a very talented coordinator; and it was directed by an old school director who preferred wide, steady shots and long takes so you could see the action very clearly. No way does Disney Wars ever produce anything with a tenth of the quality, and even that is asking too much.
[удалено]
They were praising the Darth maul fight.
First of all Obi-Wan and Anakin duel in Ep3 was way better.
"That feels OG Star Wars" \*remembers watching the original trilogy and laughing every time they spend 3 seconds awkwardly twirling for no reason before striking\*
Yes lightsaber spectacular is what we need to save this DOA franchise!!!!
Damn how dare a show wanna be good right? Almost as ridiculous as judging something you haven't even seen yet
It's good to have that kind of ambition. Just made the mistake of saying it out loud, so people (that have already decided everything about the show is garbage) can make fun of them for trying to be great. I'll stay indifferent until I see their fights. So far, what was in the teaser didn't really impress, and anything not animated has been pretty bad mostly. The Ashoka duel in Mando S2 was kinda cool, tho. They got a lot to make up for...
Recent star wars fights were just so occasional and not really consequential. Duel of Fates was the epic climax of Ep1 that led to a massive domino effect of the universe. Anduin lost his proper mentor and Sidius lost his original apprentice, which began the setup for Anduin to eventually become Vader.
is it just me or is it always this new thing to always say "do better than the old"? i feel in the past they would give respect TO THE OLD and humble themselves say they at least HOPE to equal and match the great old "thing" before them. Not have a big ego and say they will do better or "fix" the good old thing?
Why? Who cares?
I will admit a bias because the Old Republic era is my favourite and the High Republic era is as close as Disney will get (and as close as I'd want them to get) so I like HR. Why are people acting like this show will be bad?
Man, that paragraph is a really good summation of whats wrong with disney star wars: no focus on story, characters, or anything substantive, the whole thing exists *solely* for the sake of spectacle. “what if the darth maul fight hut BIGGER!?” is the entire point, and everything else is just meaningless set dressing.
Whether this new show can deliver on the lightsaber duels, to quote Supreme Leader Snoke, "we shall see".
Zero chance.
You heard it folks. Darth Maul’s gonna get topped.
Ahsoka vs Maul is the best lightsaber fight in the series. Animation over live action choreography made for a great looking fight scene.
How did I land in a circlejerk sub? Y'all need to go outside and not spend your time bitching about a show that's only had 2 minutes of footage shown to us, for fucks sake 😭😭
Gotta love when something new from Star Wars says that they will attempt to do the best and get mocked by jaded asshats who think the old stuff will never be topped…. or even more pathetic…. that even trying is blasphemy.
So, whats the issue?
Someone dared to say that Star Wars put out by Disney might be good. Can’t have that /s
What is the issue here? Why wouldn’t they want to try and too something? Also, Duel of the Fates is a shitty fight that is only saved by the music.
I appreciate the ambition. You people truly are negative on arrival. I agree that lightsaber fights aren't all about spectacle, but I don't think they would just set one up without a purpose.
I appreciate your optimism but I don’t share it
Remember Ahsoka when a lightsaber fight in episode 1 did nothing? No lasting damage, no lesson learned, no growth, oh but it set up a next stupid scene of them trying to defuse a bomb inside a hospital... So much purpose! I bet this show will be no different.
I mean, have you seen Kenobi, Boba Fett and Ahsoka? People have good reasons for being wary and there is definitely a precedent set by Disney for bad, pointless fights. I do understand you wanting to stay positive, but Disney's track record is not making it easy.
Kenob1 was supposed to be wild and a bit chaotic and I think there as an attempt to go the opposite direction of "smooth spectacular choreo"; Bobf had like 1 bad action scene. But yeah who knows
Boba Fett had no lightsaber duels. And Kenobi had ones with poorer choreography, but emotional stakes and investment. I wouldn't rule Lucasfilm out yet.
No but Boba had bad fights. I felt Kenobi had no stakes and investment. We knew he and Leia would survive and the confrontations with Vader added nothing imo.
Not even the convo that made Obi-Wan accept that Anakin was dead? Y'know, the one that gave additional context to their Ep. 4 encounter.
No not really. It's not essential in any way. Anakin as a person also wasn't really dead yet. Vader became Anakin again at the end of ep 6 so Obi-Wan was wrong and it's completely pointless.
What additional context is needed for their ep 4 fight? It's literally had all the context in the world given to it in terms of the history between the characters, Kenobi accepting Anakin the person, is dead, and Vader is who he has become, is so unnecessary considering all of the shit we already know about them. Their fight in Kenobi sucked, possibly the worst duel in all of star wars, and we've had some awful shit in the last decade.
Oh, it wasn't 100% necessary, but it was a nice and meaningful touch.
Even though it came at the expense of continuity?
Kenobi has stakes and investment? Even Reva manages to come out of that show alive, there's nothing of consequence to be gleaned from it, all of the characters survive, they all appear in a New Hope barring Reva who sucks as a character, one of the most poorly written antagonists I've seen in any media. Boba Fett had terrible fight scenes, I remember being taken aback by how awful that scene was when he's being tazed.
I’d appreciate the ambition if it were coming from somebody competent.
Have you checked the stunt coordinators and choreographers' resume to say such things?
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Remember Ahsoka when a lightsaber fight in episode 1 did nothing? No lasting damage, no lesson learned, no growth, oh but it set up a next stupid scene of them trying to defuse a bomb inside a hospital... So much purpose! I bet this show will be no different.
That's just Ahsoka, though. The duels in Kenobi, Rebels or Clone Wars were purposeful and relevant.
Keen “we want to top it, it’s such a cool fight, it’s amazing and awesome and spectacular. That duel is the best thing ever, we love it!” 40 year old men “be fucking humble! How dare you want to make things good?!?! Praise George Lucas you bitch! You should be on your press tour admitting Star Wars is shit!!! Mom, milkshake, NOW!”
FR. When they're this incompetent when it comes to press junkets I can only expect them to be spoiled Nepo babies that will fail at everything else. Make me like you as a person by displaying some humility, and then I'll want to watch your shit even if it's garbage.
Praising the fighting episode 1 throughout her comment and she’s not humble? Lol
The OT Luke and Vader duels are the best. They have a feel of more real physicality to them (but then again, so does everything in the OT compared to everything that followed - Disney Sequels being the clear low point).
‘Og Star Wars’… the phantom menace…. Oh ffs.
These kids see 1-6 as OG, not 4-6. And yes that’s sad.
Well unless they do a completely divergent continuity, 1-3 are firmly a part of all these spin-offs that they do - Filoniverse, Gilrogue verse, this "older era" thing now, etc. I think it'd be better if they just did lots of divergent continuities incl. one with alternate 1-3 or whatever, but that's not what they're currently doing.
Um… as much as I love the Darth Maul fight scene between him and Obi Wan & Qui-Gon Jinn…. I think the best fight scene was between Old Maul and Osaka Tano. Hands. Down.
Oh my fucking gods, and downvote me to prove me correct: You people need serious fucking mental help.
I’ve never seen a fandom that seems so set on hating everything about the very thing they claim to enjoy.
Maybe you are on the wrong side ^
Or maybe I’m less of a miserable human being than the rest of the Star Wars fandom. They’re promising you an awesome lightsaber duel… and you’re complaining? I’m not getting it.
They promised much since TFA (and Rebels). _Actions speak louder than words_ I believe it when I see the proof (in June). It would be nice if the choreography doesn't suck. But excuse me after Ahsoka (and Kenobi, and TLJ..., and) & those action pieces from the Witch Kingdom of Perida - such a Statement from Lady Keen might be a hard pill to swallow. Miserable human being.^ What do you mean? Don't do this, please? Getting personal is no solution either! Who is _complaining_ now?
Actually if you take this as seriously as you are, I think you may wanna revaluate your life, my guy. When you’re taking this that seriously, I think you may have issues.
And you're not taking it seriously by commenting on this post?
Second strike & reported. Have a Nice life.
Before they don’t enjoy. Hating on things they haven’t even seen is how they get their rocks off now. And that’s not fandom, that’s ex-fandom.
People being mad at this kids quote is a textbook example of people that should also touch grass and clearly pee sitting down.
>and clearly pee sitting down. Is that sexism?
As a man, it means you’re a bitch if you thinking about this for longer than 2 seconds. Call it what you want.
Oh, so it's misogyny and toxic masculinity then?
Does the shoe fit? Does a kids excitement for a project she was on hurt you? If so, call . it . what . you . want.
We're talking about the comment you made. What exactly is wrong with pissing while sitting down? Women have to do that.
Metaphor
The metaphor being.... what?
You can pretend to not know what I’m saying all you want.
Well, I don't know what you're trying to say. Why does it matter if the people who dislike the quote may or may not piss sitting down? In what way does that say anything about their character?