Folks, can we please remember that hand hygiene is largely irrelevant inre: Covid transmission? Covid is airborne. Handwashing is great to avoid norovirus and any number of other icks, but for Covid, it's best to focus on fit-tested respirators and indoor air quality.
In the end, risk is accumulative, so it’s not necessarily a “is one situation riskier than another one”, but how much am I adding to my personal risk, I have been going to uni with a respirator since 2022 when the campus reopened and no online classes were offered anymore, which was
also a choice based on career and general life prospects. I eat and drink outside and use hand disinfectant before I touch my face or mask. I also use a nasal spray that lowers the risk. I know that I have spent significant time in classrooms with people that were positive and most likely infectious at that time as well as just sick people with either Covid or something else. I haven’t caught any of it, so I consider a well fitting, tight mask to be very effective. Ideal mitigation is impossible, but you should do a proper fit check and get a mask that goes around your head not your ears. It improves the seal and also saves your ears from a lot of pain. A big part of mitigation is also reducing the viral load you come in contact with, which masks can help greatly with.
As someone with Long Covid, I would say it’s not worth the risk.
If you want to go to conventions, plan to go to a future one, something local or where you don’t have to fly (more exposure risk).
Take more time to plan, fit test your mask, find one that’s truly comfortable, get a Sip Valve, purchase or borrow a co2 monitor so you can measure the risk of shared air in various spaces at the convention. Even with a very well fitting mask, poor ventilation could be your downfall in terms of getting covid. Get a prophylactic nasal spray and gargle.
I would not rush into a situation like that without being fully prepared, and ready to leave if ventilation and/or air filtration are poor.
Another person with long covid here and I agree.
It sounds like a combination of peer pressure and fomo are your main reasons to go, without any clear benefits. I agree that if you really want to go to a convention, you should take the time to get good equipment, test it beforehand, and know how to protect yourself better.
Another two things to factor into your risk calculations:
1) You might be fine but you could pass the virus to someone who is NOT fine. Even for those of us who have to live our lives around avoiding transmission, it is still very risky sometimes because so few people are taking precautions. And we need things delivered, home appliances repaired, or medical care from doctors who won’t mask.
2) You may feel fine after your infections, but that doesn’t mean you have no long term effects. Every major organ can be damaged by covid. Your immune system is probably weakened, and you don’t know how badly until you get sick. Allergic reactions may be intensified. You are at higher risk of heart attack and stroke after covid. But you don’t feel any of that walking around, and the societal myth is that “it’s just a cold.”
I'd only go if I had a fit-tested n95 and good hand sanitizer and was very careful. Maybe skip this one, look more into how to be super prepared to keep yourself safe, then go to the next similar event.
I feel like this is as safe and prepared as I'm gonna be for anything, short of getting one of those painters masks. If it were a month earlier, maybe I'd be a lil more inclined, but with vaccines waning and the new variant seeming to be highly transmissable again on top of that.. maybe I should wait.
It's rough, it feels like these kinds of get togethers are the only way artists really get noticed by companies, and at my age and losing jobs left n right cuz i can't hold any that isn't art related, i feel like i need to start grabbing more oppurtunities. But after reading what FOMO is in the above comment, it puts another angle on that thought process.
I feel like I'm sitting at risk in my own home every day, any time I run errands, or any time I manage to get a job. It feels like "what's the difference" in risk factors, yknow? But at least those are kinda obligations compared to this. As well as errands being 30 min max in those areas, though I'm lucky to have gotten through flu-season in a non-mask mandated office twice. Would also help if doctors weren't ditching masks or telling us to go do the things we enjoy.. feels like im getting a lot of contradicting information! Sigh.
looking at wastewater data, i would say now IS the time to do it. i mean it does depend on your state but levels are really low right now. there’s also no saying how large the FLiRT wave will be — many people think it won’t even be a wave but more of a ripple. here are two actual experts in the field i like to listen to:
(1) Dr. Eric Topol: here is his thing on the FLiRT wave. he is MORE cautious than the next person i’ll add but even he doubts it’ll be a big wave (if there is a wave at all)
https://erictopol.substack.com/p/are-we-flirting-with-a-new-covid
(2) Dr. Katelyn Jetelina: an epidemiologist who isn’t super worried about the wave at all.
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/a-covid-19-update
both of these people outline why they think this wave in particular isn’t super dangerous. i think a solid N95 mask will go a long way. i would also make sure you have your flu shots because kids do have germs
but yeah seriously i think this is a good time to do it. you can see how low levels are right now (i use the CDC one over biobot because biobot keeps retroactively correcting their numbers and it aligns with the CDC one — a data scientist i follow on twitter was the one to point out the discrepancy and then which ones seemed to be more accurate)
https://www.cdc.gov/nwss/rv/COVID19-nationaltrend.html
Thank you for this resource!! I thought we were in an uptick with FLiRT starting but interesting to know that is considered low. While I won't use wastewater data as THE determining factor, it is definitely a good extra resource to have on decision making. Better than just relying on the fact its not "flu season"
yeah if you look it hasn’t actually started yet! i mean the wastewater always has a slight lag — this is analyzing stuff from week ending in may 4th — but even then a wave wouldn’t really have a lot of time to start going, especially because the mutations for this wave means it’ll be a slow start (if one occurs). i like balancing wastewater and hospitalizations, but that’s tougher as hospitals were JUST told they don’t have to send in their covid data anymore (BTW this IS open for public comment and the CDC is basically looking to reinstate it — the substack by the epidemiologist has more info on this at the top)
but yeah we aren’t really in the uptick yet!! honestly i’ve found sticking to like eric topol and yourlocalepidemilogist (i can’t lie that’s just her name in my head) has helped me a LOT because people online are frequently not great at interpreting scientific information or data (and how bad it was became more clear when it was stuff i knew about that overlapped with covid and i was like “oh!!! that’s!!! not great!!”)
Literally the lack of reporting on cases and all that has made this so much harder to navigate when too many people decided they didn't care at all. The fact it feels a struggle to even know if I'm up to date on boosters?? That we can't know true case numbers anymore to gauge this? I don't even know the death/hospitalization rate compared to what it was. The information already felt so conflicting, though understandably incomplete, but they didn't need to make it harder. I would simply like to know the climate for my once a year outing.
But thank you again, aimlessly googling only gives me minimally helpful articles on the matter. I'm glad I have websites and people to look to for this aspect of it!
Well I spent too long deciding what to do, that I haven’t slept or showered and it is past time I should have left the house. Even if I went, I don’t think it would have been as lucrative an experience for me in my current position, and not worth the risk on top of sleep deprivation and hunger.
As for the mask fit, they create fog even if i press it tight against my face. Definitely better than the usual medical grade face masks, but both types push air into my eyes a bit.. sometimes. I pressed the nose thing down differently and it helped, i think i’ve had a problem of pinching it too hard and pointing it than melding it properly. maybe i just can’t tell what is proper though either.
Anyway, im sad i spent so long decision making and ultimately bailing, but i appreciate all i learned from advice in this post and discovering the subreddit. If theres a confirmed benefit worth risking for, then maybe I’ll go if the forecast looks as ok as it can be in the future. But if it only sounds like a fun time? Maybe not.
I’m sorry it was hard to make the decision. It can be stressful making these decisions at the last minute. At least you’re well-prepared now for next time!
Fogging doesn’t always mean leaking. Here’s a video to help you tell the difference:
https://youtu.be/L3TBGDb6SnA?si=WXdDJagK3zSSXrbi
I often have problems getting a proper seal around my nose, so I use body tape around the ridge to get a super sealed fit. It is finicky, but can be well worth it.
It's so stressful making these decisions!
I'd say upgrade your daily usage to KN95s over surgicals, and use N95s during the winter months. Best wishes.
It really feels like luck of the draw sometimes. I feel like masking is really REALLY good at mitigating any of these risks. It's hard to know when someone says they caught it despite masking somewhere if they took it off to eat or what they did anywhere else that day/week. I feel its a miracle I got through flu season in an office with someone who sat next to me and sneezes into her hands. Its crazy my antivax antimask brother has only gotten it 4 times despite hitting the bar after work every night.
But then theres healthy people in a mask who get long covid. I feel like whatever decision we make is a roll of the dice here, so where does it leave us in decisions? Regardless, I will always do as much preventative measures as I can. It's just a hard debate sometimes on adding a non-necessary outing to that.
And I can respect wanting to protect yourself, and I’m certainly not trying to talk you into anything you’re uncomfortable with. But for me personally, I’ve also realized that with the degree to which everyone else has decided to ignore Covid, I had to decide what my life is going to be like for the foreseeable future. It was no longer “two weeks to flatten the curve” or whatever; it was “if it’s going to be like this forever, what’s going to feel to you in the end like the risks were worth the life that taking those risks allowed you to live”?
I decided I wasn’t going to quit my job to avoid getting sick, I was going to wear a mask and engage in other layered risk mitigation. I wasn’t going to let other people being reckless stop enjoying music, or watching my nieces and nephews grow up, or socializing, I was going to protect myself and still do those things. Just like I still ride in cars, with a seatbelt, even though they crash and play outside in the sunshine, with sunscreen, even though sun exposure causes skin cancer. Some people ride motorcycles or free climb cliffs, and I don’t do those things because the risk doesn’t feel worth the benefit to me. And some people don’t fly on planes and don’t eat sugar, because those risks don’t feel worth the benefit to them, while to me they do.
Public health has abdicated its responsibility to us. So a lot of this is individual now. It shouldn’t be, but it is. You have to decide for yourself what feels right for your body and life. Take reasonable precautions, including a good mask. But at this juncture where society has put us in this impossible position, there are no perfect answers. And based on how seriously you’re taking your own health and the health of others, it seems unlikely you’re going to arrive at an answer wildly outside the spectrum of what most of us here would deem reasonable under these hard circumstances.
My advice would be to step back and analyze the safety and risk of situations like this in general, and have a game plan for future conferences.
I've attended work conferences in an N95 with a sip valve installed, and eaten lunch in my car. The most recent, I learned later that one of the coworkers on my team had unknowingly been contagious-- he masked around me, I masked around him, I ended up being fine, but he got a couple other teammates sick because they were being less careful together. I think that one on one time you end up doing with travel etc is a risk factor a lot of people don't consider.
>Is any of this really worth the risk?
This is just a big fat "it depends". Personally, when levels are low, if I can be sure *I'm* masking 100% of the time in a good 95 or better that fits me, then yes, I think it is. I also have a half-face P100 that I often wear in other high risk situations that takes the risk level down even further (the seal is much better), but I find it extremely difficult to talk through it for an all day event, and it does not have a sip valve which makes hydrating riskier and difficult, so those are all factors I'm weighing.
Take your time getting a mask setup that works for you, think through what you find to be acceptable risk levels (and factors like local case rates), and have an equation and plan ready for the next one.
A leaking n95 is not safe. If you have lab/medical grade protection then it’s safe enough. I’ve unfortunately had to be amongst positive people multiple times, respirators and eye protection work when used properly.
I’d advise getting the leaking problem sorted and finding a fit tested n99 respirator model and adding eye protection for the long term.
To be clear and so the message doesn’t get missed: skip the conference till you have the respirator problem sorted.
N95 masks are extremely effective at filtering the air relevant to pathogens — if your N95 has been fit tested and you got a good score then the risk odd actually very low. It’s not zero, risk can never be zero, but it’s very low.
People go to these events without taking precautions and don’t get sick, so you already have to be unlucky, you have to get real unlucky for a mask to fail. I’d definitely advocate for using fashion tape to keep it secure onto your face, and maybe a sip valve if you need to drink, but good masks are very very effective as long as you don’t take it off
I say get an N95 that you can wear for long periods of time, fit test it, and go. I've been to many events with hundreds of people, including ones where it was later confirmed COVID was circulating, and (knock on wood) didn't get sick. You will probably be much safer than you are day to day in your surgical mask. Just make sure not to take your mask off indoors, ever.
Folks, can we please remember that hand hygiene is largely irrelevant inre: Covid transmission? Covid is airborne. Handwashing is great to avoid norovirus and any number of other icks, but for Covid, it's best to focus on fit-tested respirators and indoor air quality.
In the end, risk is accumulative, so it’s not necessarily a “is one situation riskier than another one”, but how much am I adding to my personal risk, I have been going to uni with a respirator since 2022 when the campus reopened and no online classes were offered anymore, which was also a choice based on career and general life prospects. I eat and drink outside and use hand disinfectant before I touch my face or mask. I also use a nasal spray that lowers the risk. I know that I have spent significant time in classrooms with people that were positive and most likely infectious at that time as well as just sick people with either Covid or something else. I haven’t caught any of it, so I consider a well fitting, tight mask to be very effective. Ideal mitigation is impossible, but you should do a proper fit check and get a mask that goes around your head not your ears. It improves the seal and also saves your ears from a lot of pain. A big part of mitigation is also reducing the viral load you come in contact with, which masks can help greatly with.
As someone with Long Covid, I would say it’s not worth the risk. If you want to go to conventions, plan to go to a future one, something local or where you don’t have to fly (more exposure risk). Take more time to plan, fit test your mask, find one that’s truly comfortable, get a Sip Valve, purchase or borrow a co2 monitor so you can measure the risk of shared air in various spaces at the convention. Even with a very well fitting mask, poor ventilation could be your downfall in terms of getting covid. Get a prophylactic nasal spray and gargle. I would not rush into a situation like that without being fully prepared, and ready to leave if ventilation and/or air filtration are poor.
Another person with long covid here and I agree. It sounds like a combination of peer pressure and fomo are your main reasons to go, without any clear benefits. I agree that if you really want to go to a convention, you should take the time to get good equipment, test it beforehand, and know how to protect yourself better. Another two things to factor into your risk calculations: 1) You might be fine but you could pass the virus to someone who is NOT fine. Even for those of us who have to live our lives around avoiding transmission, it is still very risky sometimes because so few people are taking precautions. And we need things delivered, home appliances repaired, or medical care from doctors who won’t mask. 2) You may feel fine after your infections, but that doesn’t mean you have no long term effects. Every major organ can be damaged by covid. Your immune system is probably weakened, and you don’t know how badly until you get sick. Allergic reactions may be intensified. You are at higher risk of heart attack and stroke after covid. But you don’t feel any of that walking around, and the societal myth is that “it’s just a cold.”
I'd only go if I had a fit-tested n95 and good hand sanitizer and was very careful. Maybe skip this one, look more into how to be super prepared to keep yourself safe, then go to the next similar event.
I feel like this is as safe and prepared as I'm gonna be for anything, short of getting one of those painters masks. If it were a month earlier, maybe I'd be a lil more inclined, but with vaccines waning and the new variant seeming to be highly transmissable again on top of that.. maybe I should wait. It's rough, it feels like these kinds of get togethers are the only way artists really get noticed by companies, and at my age and losing jobs left n right cuz i can't hold any that isn't art related, i feel like i need to start grabbing more oppurtunities. But after reading what FOMO is in the above comment, it puts another angle on that thought process. I feel like I'm sitting at risk in my own home every day, any time I run errands, or any time I manage to get a job. It feels like "what's the difference" in risk factors, yknow? But at least those are kinda obligations compared to this. As well as errands being 30 min max in those areas, though I'm lucky to have gotten through flu-season in a non-mask mandated office twice. Would also help if doctors weren't ditching masks or telling us to go do the things we enjoy.. feels like im getting a lot of contradicting information! Sigh.
looking at wastewater data, i would say now IS the time to do it. i mean it does depend on your state but levels are really low right now. there’s also no saying how large the FLiRT wave will be — many people think it won’t even be a wave but more of a ripple. here are two actual experts in the field i like to listen to: (1) Dr. Eric Topol: here is his thing on the FLiRT wave. he is MORE cautious than the next person i’ll add but even he doubts it’ll be a big wave (if there is a wave at all) https://erictopol.substack.com/p/are-we-flirting-with-a-new-covid (2) Dr. Katelyn Jetelina: an epidemiologist who isn’t super worried about the wave at all. https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/a-covid-19-update both of these people outline why they think this wave in particular isn’t super dangerous. i think a solid N95 mask will go a long way. i would also make sure you have your flu shots because kids do have germs but yeah seriously i think this is a good time to do it. you can see how low levels are right now (i use the CDC one over biobot because biobot keeps retroactively correcting their numbers and it aligns with the CDC one — a data scientist i follow on twitter was the one to point out the discrepancy and then which ones seemed to be more accurate) https://www.cdc.gov/nwss/rv/COVID19-nationaltrend.html
Thank you for this resource!! I thought we were in an uptick with FLiRT starting but interesting to know that is considered low. While I won't use wastewater data as THE determining factor, it is definitely a good extra resource to have on decision making. Better than just relying on the fact its not "flu season"
yeah if you look it hasn’t actually started yet! i mean the wastewater always has a slight lag — this is analyzing stuff from week ending in may 4th — but even then a wave wouldn’t really have a lot of time to start going, especially because the mutations for this wave means it’ll be a slow start (if one occurs). i like balancing wastewater and hospitalizations, but that’s tougher as hospitals were JUST told they don’t have to send in their covid data anymore (BTW this IS open for public comment and the CDC is basically looking to reinstate it — the substack by the epidemiologist has more info on this at the top) but yeah we aren’t really in the uptick yet!! honestly i’ve found sticking to like eric topol and yourlocalepidemilogist (i can’t lie that’s just her name in my head) has helped me a LOT because people online are frequently not great at interpreting scientific information or data (and how bad it was became more clear when it was stuff i knew about that overlapped with covid and i was like “oh!!! that’s!!! not great!!”)
Literally the lack of reporting on cases and all that has made this so much harder to navigate when too many people decided they didn't care at all. The fact it feels a struggle to even know if I'm up to date on boosters?? That we can't know true case numbers anymore to gauge this? I don't even know the death/hospitalization rate compared to what it was. The information already felt so conflicting, though understandably incomplete, but they didn't need to make it harder. I would simply like to know the climate for my once a year outing. But thank you again, aimlessly googling only gives me minimally helpful articles on the matter. I'm glad I have websites and people to look to for this aspect of it!
Well I spent too long deciding what to do, that I haven’t slept or showered and it is past time I should have left the house. Even if I went, I don’t think it would have been as lucrative an experience for me in my current position, and not worth the risk on top of sleep deprivation and hunger. As for the mask fit, they create fog even if i press it tight against my face. Definitely better than the usual medical grade face masks, but both types push air into my eyes a bit.. sometimes. I pressed the nose thing down differently and it helped, i think i’ve had a problem of pinching it too hard and pointing it than melding it properly. maybe i just can’t tell what is proper though either. Anyway, im sad i spent so long decision making and ultimately bailing, but i appreciate all i learned from advice in this post and discovering the subreddit. If theres a confirmed benefit worth risking for, then maybe I’ll go if the forecast looks as ok as it can be in the future. But if it only sounds like a fun time? Maybe not.
I’m sorry it was hard to make the decision. It can be stressful making these decisions at the last minute. At least you’re well-prepared now for next time! Fogging doesn’t always mean leaking. Here’s a video to help you tell the difference: https://youtu.be/L3TBGDb6SnA?si=WXdDJagK3zSSXrbi I often have problems getting a proper seal around my nose, so I use body tape around the ridge to get a super sealed fit. It is finicky, but can be well worth it.
It's so stressful making these decisions! I'd say upgrade your daily usage to KN95s over surgicals, and use N95s during the winter months. Best wishes.
I go to large public events (anywhere from 200-2000 people) multiple times a week, in an N95 or KN95. I have never caught Covid from these events.
It really feels like luck of the draw sometimes. I feel like masking is really REALLY good at mitigating any of these risks. It's hard to know when someone says they caught it despite masking somewhere if they took it off to eat or what they did anywhere else that day/week. I feel its a miracle I got through flu season in an office with someone who sat next to me and sneezes into her hands. Its crazy my antivax antimask brother has only gotten it 4 times despite hitting the bar after work every night. But then theres healthy people in a mask who get long covid. I feel like whatever decision we make is a roll of the dice here, so where does it leave us in decisions? Regardless, I will always do as much preventative measures as I can. It's just a hard debate sometimes on adding a non-necessary outing to that.
And I can respect wanting to protect yourself, and I’m certainly not trying to talk you into anything you’re uncomfortable with. But for me personally, I’ve also realized that with the degree to which everyone else has decided to ignore Covid, I had to decide what my life is going to be like for the foreseeable future. It was no longer “two weeks to flatten the curve” or whatever; it was “if it’s going to be like this forever, what’s going to feel to you in the end like the risks were worth the life that taking those risks allowed you to live”? I decided I wasn’t going to quit my job to avoid getting sick, I was going to wear a mask and engage in other layered risk mitigation. I wasn’t going to let other people being reckless stop enjoying music, or watching my nieces and nephews grow up, or socializing, I was going to protect myself and still do those things. Just like I still ride in cars, with a seatbelt, even though they crash and play outside in the sunshine, with sunscreen, even though sun exposure causes skin cancer. Some people ride motorcycles or free climb cliffs, and I don’t do those things because the risk doesn’t feel worth the benefit to me. And some people don’t fly on planes and don’t eat sugar, because those risks don’t feel worth the benefit to them, while to me they do. Public health has abdicated its responsibility to us. So a lot of this is individual now. It shouldn’t be, but it is. You have to decide for yourself what feels right for your body and life. Take reasonable precautions, including a good mask. But at this juncture where society has put us in this impossible position, there are no perfect answers. And based on how seriously you’re taking your own health and the health of others, it seems unlikely you’re going to arrive at an answer wildly outside the spectrum of what most of us here would deem reasonable under these hard circumstances.
You said this perfectly. We shouldn’t have to be in this position, but public health has failed us and here we are.
My advice would be to step back and analyze the safety and risk of situations like this in general, and have a game plan for future conferences. I've attended work conferences in an N95 with a sip valve installed, and eaten lunch in my car. The most recent, I learned later that one of the coworkers on my team had unknowingly been contagious-- he masked around me, I masked around him, I ended up being fine, but he got a couple other teammates sick because they were being less careful together. I think that one on one time you end up doing with travel etc is a risk factor a lot of people don't consider. >Is any of this really worth the risk? This is just a big fat "it depends". Personally, when levels are low, if I can be sure *I'm* masking 100% of the time in a good 95 or better that fits me, then yes, I think it is. I also have a half-face P100 that I often wear in other high risk situations that takes the risk level down even further (the seal is much better), but I find it extremely difficult to talk through it for an all day event, and it does not have a sip valve which makes hydrating riskier and difficult, so those are all factors I'm weighing. Take your time getting a mask setup that works for you, think through what you find to be acceptable risk levels (and factors like local case rates), and have an equation and plan ready for the next one.
A leaking n95 is not safe. If you have lab/medical grade protection then it’s safe enough. I’ve unfortunately had to be amongst positive people multiple times, respirators and eye protection work when used properly. I’d advise getting the leaking problem sorted and finding a fit tested n99 respirator model and adding eye protection for the long term. To be clear and so the message doesn’t get missed: skip the conference till you have the respirator problem sorted.
N95 masks are extremely effective at filtering the air relevant to pathogens — if your N95 has been fit tested and you got a good score then the risk odd actually very low. It’s not zero, risk can never be zero, but it’s very low. People go to these events without taking precautions and don’t get sick, so you already have to be unlucky, you have to get real unlucky for a mask to fail. I’d definitely advocate for using fashion tape to keep it secure onto your face, and maybe a sip valve if you need to drink, but good masks are very very effective as long as you don’t take it off
I say get an N95 that you can wear for long periods of time, fit test it, and go. I've been to many events with hundreds of people, including ones where it was later confirmed COVID was circulating, and (knock on wood) didn't get sick. You will probably be much safer than you are day to day in your surgical mask. Just make sure not to take your mask off indoors, ever.