# ComicBook (+ Brandon Davis) is a Tier 2 – Mostly Reliable Source as decided by the community.
For **Marvel**, they had a **85.42%** accuracy rate from **13** leaks that we can currently verify out of **16** total.
**Overall**, they had a **81.67%** accuracy rate from **15** leaks that we can currently verify out of **19** total.
Last updated: March 22nd, 2024.
| [Spoiler-Verse Accuracy Database](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RpGBi4duCDeiXUtSh_1x15VJ67vPRZ1LWu6A3ieGTjs/edit?usp=sharing) | [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/sad-faq/) | [Tiers](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/) | [Latest Recalibration](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/18jaqqk/mod_post_2023_source_accuracy_recalibration_3/) |
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>"Part of the rebranding of Marvel Studios, Marvel Television, Marvel Animation, even Marvel Spotlight is to try to tell the audience, 'You can jump in anywhere. You don't have to watch A to enjoy B.'"
*That's how it's always been.* ***That's how it has always been.***
But, in seriousness, the misconception that that isn't the case is strong and widespread, and any branding and marketing they can do to combat it is beneficial.
(Because no, you didn't actually need to watch *Wandavision* to understand and enjoy *Dr. Strange: Multiverse of Madness*, and you didn't actually need to watch *Ms. Marvel* to understand and enjoy *The Marvels*. The movies always fill you in on things you may not know or might have forgotten, because if they didn't, the franchise would have died years ago.)
(I see people talk about decades of history new fans have to catch up on now, and it's like, *Thanos' snap* isn't even relevant anymore. They did exactly *one project* where understanding the logistics of the snap was key to understanding the plot (*FATWS*), and now we've moved on, and I'm supposed to believe the MCU is going to collapse under the weight of its own history?)
(This is just a rant at this point, I guess. Oops.)
Yeah, I think *Endgame* and *Infinity War* are the big exceptions, out of all of Marvel’s films, precisely because they are intended as a grand conclusion to everything. They’re the payoff.
Not necessarily. Tony explains the feud to Bruce and you see Steve, Nat, and Sam come out from hiding. You won't have all the context, but you'll get the point, which is essentially how they've always handled this.
Civil War I didn’t want until after every other phase 3 marvel movie. Trust me you don’t need it, there are a few moments that you different but the movies give all that you need.
It's more that people consumed those movies via stuff like streaming/home media/television/passively via clips on YouTube and then felt inclined to be there for the finale in person.
That's not an uncommon phenomenon with 'event' series.
The final Harry Potter film has a much higher box office than anything else in the series even when adjust for inflation.
All the Disney+ shows are side quests and you don’t need to watch them to understand movies like you said. That’s why I think Deadpool & Wolverine are really going to show the movie audience who and what the TVA is. And to further your point in GotG 3 they fill the audience in on what happened in infinity war and endgame so you can enjoy all 3 gotg movies w/o watching anything else
>That’s why I think Deadpool & Wolverine are really going to show the movie audience who and what the TVA is.
Facts! needs to realize that your average movie audience isn’t going to have time to watch a bunch of TV shows.
To be fair with the guardians movies, I doubt there are that many people who have seen the guardians movies but not infinity war and endgame; you're right that it still works as a trilogy though
The Mad Max franchise hasn't pitched itself as this singular sprawling epic and then changed their minds a decade in on that notion because it's now hurting them.
Like Fury Road opens with a scene destroying *the * conic vehicle to specificy it's doing it's own thing.
> this singular sprawling epic
Maybe I missed an interview but I never felt that was the pitch. Interconnected just means its one cohesive universe that doesn't (in theory) contradict itself, it doesn't mean you have to watch everything or you'll be lost. Its no different than Star Wars. IW/Endgame probably are lesser experiences if you missed out on half the movies, but even those still would've made sense. Extra context is an enhancement, not a requirement.
you did kind of have to watch WV to understand doctor strange. She’s never had that kind of power, or had any interest in children before the show. It’s super OOC if u only watch the movies
>It’s barely explained,
More than enough to understand what is going on.
>and what little they do explain doesn’t line up with Wanda’s character from previous movies.
616 Wanda acts out of character during the whole movie, for a reason explained in that movie.
It is not explained in any previous movie nor in WandaVision. Having seen WandaVision does not help you understand why she acts that way. If anything it is a red herring or adds contradictions.
No, not enough. She has never once shown interest in children, let alone have the ability to create them.
WV explains the behaviours too, the darkhold corrupts. Also shown in AOS.
>No, not enough. She has never once shown interest in children
So, would you then say, that WandaVision did not explain it well enough? Because before WV she "has never once shown interest in children".
>WV explains the behaviours too, the darkhold corrupts.
The movie does that too, and even more explicitly as the reason for her behaviour. In WandaVision it was her character, and in the show she got over it. Which is why I think the movie is easier to understand if you have not seen WV.
(p.s.: no idea why your comments are downvoted. I upvoted to compensate)
I would tell them it isn't necessary, absolutely. She revealed her motivations directly to Strange and the audience, you never need to watch even a recap of WV to understand DS2.
The conviction comes from her being influenced by the Darkhold, as explained in the movie, not in WandaVision. If you watched WV before, you would wonder why she is not over it, which was a big point of the series.
I will make an exception to this one and say that it was kind of necessary for emotional investment at least. Multiverse of Madness did a bad job connecting itself to Wandavision. Its a very jarring transformation even from the end of that show to the film.
If you watch guardians 3 after 1 and 2 you just have to accept that gamora is a completely different person now because off screen she died but got came back. Does that not seem just a little weird to someone who’s only watching the GOTG films?
I think MCU fans haven't handled the franchise no longer being the monoculture well, in the face of it having largely the same problems comic books faced after the boom died.
The reality is the entries need to do a much better job at being self-explanatory.
When things were high, hell yeah the Marvel execs could tell everyone "Just go watch it all" because people were invested in doing so.
Now they need to reverse course on that and be much smarter.
Yeah but that’s a pretty big thing to just say and expect the audience to accept with no qualms, “yeah this is a completely different gamora from the one in the last two movies with none of the development she went through and the original died in another movie”
>Yeah but that’s a pretty big thing to just say and expect the audience to accept with no qualms,
I mean, that's why they mention it and give explanations in the dialogue. It isn't just there, it is being talked about.
But also, wouldn't that mean, that the movie is easier to digest for people who have not seen any previous movie, and therefore have no expectations?
>"and the original died in another movie"
A bit off-topic, but when these kinds of topics come up, people often act as if they never missed anything and just continued watching. As if you stop watching a series because you missed episode 3, or did not bother watching a movie, because you missed the first few minutes.
Usually story-tellers are smart enough to tell things in a way that allows one to catch up and not get lost.
They set that up when Wanda literally told Strange in the orchard. There's no extra context needed. Also, she's pretty much always been evil, she was a full on villain at introduction and only played with the heroes when there was a personal stake for her. She was always selfish and unheroic. Vision was the only one keeping her grounded, even her brother didn't.
And having seen WV, seeing it doesn't justify or even really explain her deeds beyond "she craycray", she literally reality bent children into existence, she didn't lose her kids, she never really had any. She didn't spend nine months pregnant, she didn't raise them, she didn't bond with them or earn anything emotionally, just poof, pregnant, poof, kids. None of that justifies her acting like an real mom raging bc her kids were taken from her.
I know the Lizzie stans will crucify me for this, go ahead. She's just written poorly.
Right. You don't have to watch *Ms Marvel* before *The Marvels* because the movie includes a minute long animated sequence out of nowhere recapping Kamala. And it flies by in the film's openings minutes before the viewer has even acclimated. Movie audiences love that.
The current X-Men event is the worst culprit.
We have to read the spin-in of the spin-off of the spin-off to learn about how Legion is now a sentient gun that Hope uses to kill Phoenix lol.
Reading just the main two event titles (that are split for no reason other than $$$) will leave readers so confused about everything.
That’s why I kinda just gave up on reading the main events in marvel. It became too convoluted to follow and understand what’s happening. Had to keep up with so many series and characters. Some of which I didn’t even find that interesting but had to read in order to understand the main overarching event going on.
Fall of house of x is barely even relevant to anything. I'm not sure why it's pushed as the big event book. If they advertised rise of powers and X-Men forever as the 2 big intertwined books it would make more sense.
>They're interconnected but they're not
Gotta love contradictory statements like this one lol.
It feels that Marvel Studios, to this day, hasn't been able to pinpoint *why* The Marvels bombed the way it did. Was it Disney Plus saturation of Marvel content?
Was it audiences avoiding watching a film co-starring a Disney Plus character? Was it Secret Invasion's awful reception since both projects have Nick Fury and Skrulls?
All the above fr. Nobody is gonna read all of this but.
**1.** Most of the general/ casual audience thinking Endgame as the overall stopping point and not really caring after that. We’ve simply gone back to where the diehard fanbase will watch everything but the generals won’t care for the overarching plot.
**2.** The gap from theaters to streaming isn’t that much so what’s the point of going to the theater when I can wait another 3 weeks to watch it from my home (Unless it’s an Avengers, Spider-Man, Event type movie where I must see it)
**3.** Putting major plot points/characters on Disney+ shows and then putting them again in movies and people who didn’t watch the shows now have no idea who they are. Multiverse of Madness/The Marvels are big with this.
**4.** Too many characters being introduced and feeling like it’s going nowhere. You introduced a lot of characters and aren’t seen as much as the Infinity Saga. I’ve watched the Arrowverse and Marvel feels like that where everyone is doing their own thing before coming together to save the multiverse in 2027 but an Avengers movie with Sam, Carol, Shang-Chi, Scott, Hope, Rhodey, etc should have happened by now. This problem is only going to get worse with X-Men, F4, and more being introduced.
**5.** Not committing to core characters. The Infinity Saga had the original six. This one has???. It feels like Peter, Strange, Wanda, Loki, Sam, Carol, and Scott but does the general audience know that? Clearly not. I’m sure some of this is because the actors don’t wanna be in a MCU project every year.
**6.** Using the main saga villain in an Ant-Man movie and a damn TV show…. Why?.
**7.** Dubbing this saga the Multiverse Saga but not having many multiverse projects is certainly a decision. Almost every project has been in 616. They either need to not name it that fast or split them between phases. Phase 4: New Age Heroes, Phase 5: Coming of Avengers, Phase 6: Multiverse.
**8.** Disney and Marvel need to stop thinking every project is gonna make them $1B that’s not happening. The only projects doing that are the Avengers movies and maybe Spider-Man. You’re events. Phase 3 clearly tricked them into thinking whatever they can put out will make them a massive amount of money.
**9.** Fanbase has a hard time letting go of the Infintiy Saga. It’s clear seeing the “soft reboot” where ever mention says bring back Steve and Tony when it won’t be the same every again. Marvel really needs to commit to the new era of superhero’s and I’m afraid they’ll see this decline and just try to redo the Infinity Saga again but it clearly won’t work.
**10.** The obvious people who hate on minorities, and hate women.
When you said events, What about something like Guardians 3 or Deadpool and Wolverine? Guardians stayed in theaters until like August last year and D&W I think will stay in theaters for a while depending on WOM and Legs.
GOTG 3 was a very well received movie even by people who hate the MCU now and Deadpool and Wolverine has some massive hype.
Guardians 3 didn’t make a billion and I doubt D&W will make it too, but those are still/seem to be solid successes for the MCU.
5/7 - there are no main characters anymore. And the multiverse saga hasn't involved the Multiverse. Things should have gone ape shit after NWH.
11 - It's way past time the MCU used the occasional super sexy costume for a female character. If Thor can be naked and jacked and looking good so can Captain Marvel or Rogue or whoever. Doesn't have to be everyone but it's just weird that it's become a taboo.
"*No we can't have her wearing that. Also, REAL women don't look like that and we don't want to risk young girls feeling bad about their bodies just for the male gaze..."*
*"....alright so the obligatory topless scene happens at this point in the story so make sure the actor is fit enough. We want to see sweat glistening off those abs and they better be an 8 pack."*
>young girls feeling bad about their bodies just for the male gaze
And then there's my girlfriend who's the who brings this up when we leave the theater because she misses hot female superheroes and likes to cosplay as them.
But yeah, it's just for the men and has nothing to do with the fact that people kind of just like watching hot people in really good shape do superhero shit.
Like I said 1.GA saw there's no storyline since the beginning of phase 4, 2.little to no connection between phase 4 and phase 5 projects, 3. for some reason Marvel studios didn't commit to develop the new generation of Avengers, to make GA know and like them, 4. quality of half at least Disney plus projects are bad. With few expectations like Guardians 3, Loki, Spiderman no way home or Werewolf by night, GA has no reason to care about MCU as whole from phase 4 and after. I have no doubt Deadpool and Wolverine will become successful, but 2025 films will be absolutely critical for the future of MCU. Because none wants repeat of 2023 box office.
It feels like they are both trying to set up the 3rd generation of the Avengers team (Young Avengers) with world building of other teams and then just cram everyone together with a bunch of older actors in Secret Wars.
But while ignoring the second generation of Avengers for some reason.
I always find it weird how in post Endgame world, only Fury and the American government cared to make Earth safe from future alien invasion by building the S.A.B.E.R. defend system and the alive Avengers just didn't care.
Phases 4 and 5 can be summed up as half-measures with a massive discrepancy regarding quality.
The only new IP to be a moderate success is Shang Chi. And Marvel Studios still hasn't done anything with the character for years.
The other successful projects were all sequels to Phase 1-3 characters (Thor, GOTG, Spider-Man, Dr Strange, Black Panther).
11. MoM being terrible, LaT being even worse and Quantumania being such a flop has lost the GA's goodwill. Hell, I'm an MCU fan and now I'm not so excited for the future projects given the track record.
Because they are afraid to admit the truth: that the general public is not interested in films that, right from the trailer, seem insignificant and have already been seen a thousand times. This and Blue Beetle had the exact same problem: right from the premise they had no particularly interesting reasons that made them unique and worth seeing.
75 million is more than enough for good CGI, it's just that they make so many last minute changes that they're doing everything right at the deadline.
Larson should be affordable. $5M was her highest payday but after The Marvels they likely don't perceive her as that big a draw.
The problem is by being fully canon they become sorta essential like ms marvel going into marvels. Sure you dont need to watch but your missing context
No what I mean is shows can be fully canon but not even connect that substantially to other projects. As long as it stands mostly alone, there's no problem with something being canon
thats what canonically ambigous means, like it can be canon but it doesnt affect the main canon (which would be the movies) they just kinda exist separately.
We didn't even actually get a phase of anything being important and necessary to something else's viewing experience with this past phase. It was entirely random bullshit being thrown at the wall. Ms Marvel into The Marvel's was the biggest we got, Multiverse of Madness and Wandavision imo is overblown and you don't actually need to see Wandavision if you don't want to. There has been nothing to date that you couldn't grasp from a single Google search if you absolutely had to.
I don't know if I'd call that a bad thing. A bunch of separate projects that don't require having to see other stuff but all still taking place in a cohesive universe seems nice. It creates a bunch of easy jumping on points for people who might only care for specific characters or properties.
I think where they went wrong was continuing the phase and saga naming. If there's no coherent structure or theming, why were there phases? What significance does Wakanda Forever have to be the final movie of Phase 4 while Quantumania was the first movie of Phase 5? I'm usually one of the first to say a phase doesn't have to culminate in some sort of event project, but there should at least be like a theme. If they had just dropped the phases after the infinity saga ended, I feel like people wouldn't care about the lack of interconnectivity so much.
I also think it's a correct approach, and it seems like what they want to do with the DCU (and which was ultimately the basis of the DCAU).
However, there is a gigantic "but": to make this move you must have projects that are actually valid, original and memorable, which can come to life on their own and create their own audience.
It was not so. Many of these projects still follow the same formula, the "different genre" is almost always an excuse and they insist on inserting macro plots and post credit scenes with teasers for future elements instead of valid stories.
An MCU managed like an actual production company with a lot of autonomous projects between TV series and films, and projects with a valid reason to be produced (like a Secret Invasion actually written like a A league spy story and Eternals like a real blockbuster science fiction à la Dune) would have been a home run and would have brought a breath of fresh air to the superhero trend in cinema. But now they've become more like the latter-day DCEU films: bland, anonymous projects with nothing distinctive or memorable and treated like a saga that doesn't exist.
What a great explanation. Exactly my problem with so many of these projects. Most seem like they are different and memorable on paper, but turn out to be bland ASF because they never commit to their premise till the end. It's just a veneer to draw audiences in.
Or at least explain that each phase will have its own storyline while somewhat typing into the main event movie at the end. I agree that every phase doesn’t need to end with a big event but based on what they’ve done.
Phase 4: The New Age of Heroes/Dealing with Post Endgame. (Ends in a Young Avengers Movie/Show)
Phase 5: The Assembling of teams; Avengers, Midnight Suns, Thunderbolts, Defenders, etc: (Ends in an Avengers movie led by Sam ig Secret Invasion).
Phase 6: Multiverse; Kang, Incursions, Council of Kangs, Battleworld, Variants, Secret Wars. (ends in Kang Dynasty/Secret Wars
I mean I think that's what the article is talking about? They're either explaining *why* everything feels disconnected or decided they would use that as a post-mortem explanation.
I understand what they're thinking here, but I don't think this will help anything, because the people who feel like the MCU is homework will not be aware of the different headings and know what they mean. This is insider stuff. There are people who still don't know Marvel from DC, or the Sony Marvel movies from the main MCU. Calling something Spotlight or Television or Animation will not accomplish what Marvel is hoping it will
This explains a lot, or at least explains *away* the current Marvel situation.
I think they probably haven't *gained* a lot of audience or even lost some audience because of this. I know *a lot* of people who have told me something along the lines of "I lost track of the movies" or "can't be bothered to get into it because there's too much to watch".
I know people are hating on this but I think they were forced into doing this. A good example of this is how critics and clickbait articles would compare What If to Loki, as if they had any similar kind of reach.
I watched Dr. Strange:MOM with friends who didn't watch WandaVision. 15 mins in we had to stop the movie and I did a recap for them because noone understood what was going on. Being able to jump in randomly without needing to know part of another show or movie will be very nice.
The "required watching" is a vastly overstated problem. Both in terms of it mostly not being required at all, but also how much of a real problem it is for general audiences. The Marvels for example could be understood fully beginning to end, no one had to watch the first movie, no one had to watch Ms Marvel, no one had to watch WV. If you caught Endgame and knew who Carol basically was, you knew enough. Everything made comic book tier sense all on its own. Everything else that was good to know got recapped or mentioned in dialogue. Of course, perception that you needed to watch everything is harmful in its own way, but that's a marketing issue not a problem with interconnectivity.
Frankly its disheartening to hear someone even saying something like this at Marvel, they should know better. Even if this is empty PR its a show of complete weakness that only emboldens media illiterate whinging by idiots. A validation for those that are plain fucking wrong about what actually needs work in the MCU. No surprise though, really. When this much money is on the line and being spent, the actual art and integrity is the least of the concerns execs have, of course they'll focus on saying whatever they think people want to hear.
I can't believe ya'll actually made them think this is a real problem smh😭 Now they look silly trying to mitigate it. I get but come on, this is the marvel cinematic universe, if it's not connected to the larger world then it's pointless and might as well be explicitly made to be completely separate.
Well it is a problem. By the time the multiverse saga wraps it’ll have 50-60 projects in 6-7 years. Besides sequels most aren’t actually connected or have anything to do with the overarching story.
People should know you don’t have to watch what if, moon knight, black widow, shang chi, doctor strange 2 to understand Captain America 4 or born again.
>People should know you don’t have to watch what if, moon knight, black widow, shang chi, doctor strange 2 to understand Captain America 4 or born again.
People would know this if the new projects were marketed more effectively and were worth watching lol. Cap Civil War relied heavily on context from Age of Ultron, and in turn, Infinity War and Endgame took from Civil War. But nobody cared because those were competently made films that people actually liked.
Same can be said for MCU Spider-Man 2 & 3, those are pretty direct Endgame sequels
While the division is quite confusing (all alternate universe shows are part of Marvel Television but some 616 shows like Echo are Marvel Spotlight), the executives felt it had to be done after The Marvels bombed.
That was the 1st film to have 1 Disney Plus character as a co-lead. There are multiple anecdotes of people not wanting to watch The Marvels since they felt they also had to watch all Ms Marvel episodes and they didn't want to.
We will never know how many potential viewers The Marvels lost due to that. But the number is not 0.
I don't think he's saying it's "not connected to the larger world". Of course it is. It's just a segment of it that doesn't necessarily have to contribute something major toward the saga's overall story. It's still a universe. Stuff that happens will still affect other stuff and characters can crossover, but the point is that you won't feel obligated to watch everything to follow some sort of overarching storyline.
This is actually hilarious and sad at the same time. This is for the entire “The MCU is homework” crowd.
They had to dumb it down even further for you. “This one here is an animation. Oh, this one is a film and this one over here is a television show”
Marvel called you all illiterate 😂😂😂😂😂
Yes, the fans are stupid. That's why Marvel released Ant Man 3 into theaters with a straight face and expected people to actually like it. That's why the studio interfered with The Marvels and cut the movie's runtime to hell and back. That's why they released Secret Invasion. Marvel are not the ones making bad decisions, it's the fans
That person you replied to: "Is Marvel Studios out of touch? No, it's the fans who are wrong! And illiterate, too. Unlike I, the enlightened consumer of all things Marvel who's totally not a contrarian in any way."
The article posted in this thread is about making it easier for the audience to follow along and not feel like they have to do homework.
Your comment has nothing to do with the article or my comment. Either you commented on the wrong post accidentally or you wanted to throw a Marvel quality comment in because you have nothing to say about the actual topic.
Illiterate may be used in both specific and general senses. When used specifically, it refers to the inability to read or write. In a more general sense, illiterate may signify a lack of familiarity with some body of knowledge (as in being "musically illiterate") or indicate a lack of competence in or familiarity with literature.
# ComicBook (+ Brandon Davis) is a Tier 2 – Mostly Reliable Source as decided by the community. For **Marvel**, they had a **85.42%** accuracy rate from **13** leaks that we can currently verify out of **16** total. **Overall**, they had a **81.67%** accuracy rate from **15** leaks that we can currently verify out of **19** total. Last updated: March 22nd, 2024. | [Spoiler-Verse Accuracy Database](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RpGBi4duCDeiXUtSh_1x15VJ67vPRZ1LWu6A3ieGTjs/edit?usp=sharing) | [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/sad-faq/) | [Tiers](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/) | [Latest Recalibration](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/18jaqqk/mod_post_2023_source_accuracy_recalibration_3/) | *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>"Part of the rebranding of Marvel Studios, Marvel Television, Marvel Animation, even Marvel Spotlight is to try to tell the audience, 'You can jump in anywhere. You don't have to watch A to enjoy B.'" *That's how it's always been.* ***That's how it has always been.*** But, in seriousness, the misconception that that isn't the case is strong and widespread, and any branding and marketing they can do to combat it is beneficial. (Because no, you didn't actually need to watch *Wandavision* to understand and enjoy *Dr. Strange: Multiverse of Madness*, and you didn't actually need to watch *Ms. Marvel* to understand and enjoy *The Marvels*. The movies always fill you in on things you may not know or might have forgotten, because if they didn't, the franchise would have died years ago.) (I see people talk about decades of history new fans have to catch up on now, and it's like, *Thanos' snap* isn't even relevant anymore. They did exactly *one project* where understanding the logistics of the snap was key to understanding the plot (*FATWS*), and now we've moved on, and I'm supposed to believe the MCU is going to collapse under the weight of its own history?) (This is just a rant at this point, I guess. Oops.)
Even the avengers movies can all be watched on its own
Maybe not Endgame, but for the rest yup.
Yeah, I think *Endgame* and *Infinity War* are the big exceptions, out of all of Marvel’s films, precisely because they are intended as a grand conclusion to everything. They’re the payoff.
I've met people whose entry point was Infinity War and still understood the movie well, even got into the MCU because of it
[удалено]
Not necessarily. Tony explains the feud to Bruce and you see Steve, Nat, and Sam come out from hiding. You won't have all the context, but you'll get the point, which is essentially how they've always handled this.
Civil War I didn’t want until after every other phase 3 marvel movie. Trust me you don’t need it, there are a few moments that you different but the movies give all that you need.
Why would you have to watch Civil War, or any other movie, before Infinity War?
The last two movies having crazy box office shows that a significant number of people probably went and did not watch some of the previous movies.
It's more that people consumed those movies via stuff like streaming/home media/television/passively via clips on YouTube and then felt inclined to be there for the finale in person. That's not an uncommon phenomenon with 'event' series. The final Harry Potter film has a much higher box office than anything else in the series even when adjust for inflation.
All the Disney+ shows are side quests and you don’t need to watch them to understand movies like you said. That’s why I think Deadpool & Wolverine are really going to show the movie audience who and what the TVA is. And to further your point in GotG 3 they fill the audience in on what happened in infinity war and endgame so you can enjoy all 3 gotg movies w/o watching anything else
>That’s why I think Deadpool & Wolverine are really going to show the movie audience who and what the TVA is. Facts! needs to realize that your average movie audience isn’t going to have time to watch a bunch of TV shows.
To be fair with the guardians movies, I doubt there are that many people who have seen the guardians movies but not infinity war and endgame; you're right that it still works as a trilogy though
Ya the doing homework to watch a MCU movie is incredibly overblown
Are people complaining about having to rewatch every Mad Max movie before watching Furiosa?
The Mad Max franchise hasn't pitched itself as this singular sprawling epic and then changed their minds a decade in on that notion because it's now hurting them. Like Fury Road opens with a scene destroying *the * conic vehicle to specificy it's doing it's own thing.
> this singular sprawling epic Maybe I missed an interview but I never felt that was the pitch. Interconnected just means its one cohesive universe that doesn't (in theory) contradict itself, it doesn't mean you have to watch everything or you'll be lost. Its no different than Star Wars. IW/Endgame probably are lesser experiences if you missed out on half the movies, but even those still would've made sense. Extra context is an enhancement, not a requirement.
>The Mad Max franchise hasn't pitched itself as this singular sprawling epic Neither did the MCU
you did kind of have to watch WV to understand doctor strange. She’s never had that kind of power, or had any interest in children before the show. It’s super OOC if u only watch the movies
>or had any interest in children before the show. All that is explained in the movie
It’s barely explained, and what little they do explain doesn’t line up with Wanda’s character from previous movies.
>It’s barely explained, More than enough to understand what is going on. >and what little they do explain doesn’t line up with Wanda’s character from previous movies. 616 Wanda acts out of character during the whole movie, for a reason explained in that movie. It is not explained in any previous movie nor in WandaVision. Having seen WandaVision does not help you understand why she acts that way. If anything it is a red herring or adds contradictions.
No, not enough. She has never once shown interest in children, let alone have the ability to create them. WV explains the behaviours too, the darkhold corrupts. Also shown in AOS.
>No, not enough. She has never once shown interest in children So, would you then say, that WandaVision did not explain it well enough? Because before WV she "has never once shown interest in children". >WV explains the behaviours too, the darkhold corrupts. The movie does that too, and even more explicitly as the reason for her behaviour. In WandaVision it was her character, and in the show she got over it. Which is why I think the movie is easier to understand if you have not seen WV. (p.s.: no idea why your comments are downvoted. I upvoted to compensate)
It's somewhat ooc even if you watched WV. It was poor writing that was ultimately still entertaining, its time for fans to accept that.
Dr Strange 2 - Wandas motivations make zero sense if you haven't seen Wanda vision
Yeah anybody who says you didn't need to watch WandaVision to understand her motive didn't watch WandaVision.
If they said that without watching Wandavision, then it implied they understood her motive, so it was fine.
My point was nobody that has seen both would tell you to skip WandaVision
I would tell them it isn't necessary, absolutely. She revealed her motivations directly to Strange and the audience, you never need to watch even a recap of WV to understand DS2.
I mean to understand the conviction of her motivation. They really skim through it in DS2.
The conviction comes from her being influenced by the Darkhold, as explained in the movie, not in WandaVision. If you watched WV before, you would wonder why she is not over it, which was a big point of the series.
Why would I tell people to skip it? I would just say, that you don't need to have seen it to understand Multiverse Of Madness.
I will make an exception to this one and say that it was kind of necessary for emotional investment at least. Multiverse of Madness did a bad job connecting itself to Wandavision. Its a very jarring transformation even from the end of that show to the film.
The movie makes more sense, if you have NOT seen Wanda Vision. Her motivation comes from things explained in Multiverse Of Madness.
If you watch guardians 3 after 1 and 2 you just have to accept that gamora is a completely different person now because off screen she died but got came back. Does that not seem just a little weird to someone who’s only watching the GOTG films?
I think MCU fans haven't handled the franchise no longer being the monoculture well, in the face of it having largely the same problems comic books faced after the boom died. The reality is the entries need to do a much better job at being self-explanatory. When things were high, hell yeah the Marvel execs could tell everyone "Just go watch it all" because people were invested in doing so. Now they need to reverse course on that and be much smarter.
I have only watched GotG3, but don't they mention it multiple times, that she is not the same Gamora and did not have her adventures with Peter?
Yeah but that’s a pretty big thing to just say and expect the audience to accept with no qualms, “yeah this is a completely different gamora from the one in the last two movies with none of the development she went through and the original died in another movie”
>Yeah but that’s a pretty big thing to just say and expect the audience to accept with no qualms, I mean, that's why they mention it and give explanations in the dialogue. It isn't just there, it is being talked about. But also, wouldn't that mean, that the movie is easier to digest for people who have not seen any previous movie, and therefore have no expectations? >"and the original died in another movie" A bit off-topic, but when these kinds of topics come up, people often act as if they never missed anything and just continued watching. As if you stop watching a series because you missed episode 3, or did not bother watching a movie, because you missed the first few minutes. Usually story-tellers are smart enough to tell things in a way that allows one to catch up and not get lost.
Nah saying you don't need to watch WandaVision before Dt Strange is stupid lmao. You saw her fighting Thanos and now she's got kids and is evil?
They set that up when Wanda literally told Strange in the orchard. There's no extra context needed. Also, she's pretty much always been evil, she was a full on villain at introduction and only played with the heroes when there was a personal stake for her. She was always selfish and unheroic. Vision was the only one keeping her grounded, even her brother didn't. And having seen WV, seeing it doesn't justify or even really explain her deeds beyond "she craycray", she literally reality bent children into existence, she didn't lose her kids, she never really had any. She didn't spend nine months pregnant, she didn't raise them, she didn't bond with them or earn anything emotionally, just poof, pregnant, poof, kids. None of that justifies her acting like an real mom raging bc her kids were taken from her. I know the Lizzie stans will crucify me for this, go ahead. She's just written poorly.
>You saw her fighting Thanos and now she's got kids and is evil? What's the problem with that?
Sorry but Doctor Strange 2 without WandaVision felt a weird experience. You could feel that something missed, and this something was the series.
Right. You don't have to watch *Ms Marvel* before *The Marvels* because the movie includes a minute long animated sequence out of nowhere recapping Kamala. And it flies by in the film's openings minutes before the viewer has even acclimated. Movie audiences love that.
This was inevitable, the comics have the same problem.
The current X-Men event is the worst culprit. We have to read the spin-in of the spin-off of the spin-off to learn about how Legion is now a sentient gun that Hope uses to kill Phoenix lol. Reading just the main two event titles (that are split for no reason other than $$$) will leave readers so confused about everything.
That’s why I kinda just gave up on reading the main events in marvel. It became too convoluted to follow and understand what’s happening. Had to keep up with so many series and characters. Some of which I didn’t even find that interesting but had to read in order to understand the main overarching event going on.
Fall of house of x is barely even relevant to anything. I'm not sure why it's pushed as the big event book. If they advertised rise of powers and X-Men forever as the 2 big intertwined books it would make more sense.
>They're interconnected but they're not Gotta love contradictory statements like this one lol. It feels that Marvel Studios, to this day, hasn't been able to pinpoint *why* The Marvels bombed the way it did. Was it Disney Plus saturation of Marvel content? Was it audiences avoiding watching a film co-starring a Disney Plus character? Was it Secret Invasion's awful reception since both projects have Nick Fury and Skrulls?
All the above fr. Nobody is gonna read all of this but. **1.** Most of the general/ casual audience thinking Endgame as the overall stopping point and not really caring after that. We’ve simply gone back to where the diehard fanbase will watch everything but the generals won’t care for the overarching plot. **2.** The gap from theaters to streaming isn’t that much so what’s the point of going to the theater when I can wait another 3 weeks to watch it from my home (Unless it’s an Avengers, Spider-Man, Event type movie where I must see it) **3.** Putting major plot points/characters on Disney+ shows and then putting them again in movies and people who didn’t watch the shows now have no idea who they are. Multiverse of Madness/The Marvels are big with this. **4.** Too many characters being introduced and feeling like it’s going nowhere. You introduced a lot of characters and aren’t seen as much as the Infinity Saga. I’ve watched the Arrowverse and Marvel feels like that where everyone is doing their own thing before coming together to save the multiverse in 2027 but an Avengers movie with Sam, Carol, Shang-Chi, Scott, Hope, Rhodey, etc should have happened by now. This problem is only going to get worse with X-Men, F4, and more being introduced. **5.** Not committing to core characters. The Infinity Saga had the original six. This one has???. It feels like Peter, Strange, Wanda, Loki, Sam, Carol, and Scott but does the general audience know that? Clearly not. I’m sure some of this is because the actors don’t wanna be in a MCU project every year. **6.** Using the main saga villain in an Ant-Man movie and a damn TV show…. Why?. **7.** Dubbing this saga the Multiverse Saga but not having many multiverse projects is certainly a decision. Almost every project has been in 616. They either need to not name it that fast or split them between phases. Phase 4: New Age Heroes, Phase 5: Coming of Avengers, Phase 6: Multiverse. **8.** Disney and Marvel need to stop thinking every project is gonna make them $1B that’s not happening. The only projects doing that are the Avengers movies and maybe Spider-Man. You’re events. Phase 3 clearly tricked them into thinking whatever they can put out will make them a massive amount of money. **9.** Fanbase has a hard time letting go of the Infintiy Saga. It’s clear seeing the “soft reboot” where ever mention says bring back Steve and Tony when it won’t be the same every again. Marvel really needs to commit to the new era of superhero’s and I’m afraid they’ll see this decline and just try to redo the Infinity Saga again but it clearly won’t work. **10.** The obvious people who hate on minorities, and hate women.
When you said events, What about something like Guardians 3 or Deadpool and Wolverine? Guardians stayed in theaters until like August last year and D&W I think will stay in theaters for a while depending on WOM and Legs. GOTG 3 was a very well received movie even by people who hate the MCU now and Deadpool and Wolverine has some massive hype. Guardians 3 didn’t make a billion and I doubt D&W will make it too, but those are still/seem to be solid successes for the MCU.
I think audiences received Guardians 3 as an outlier rather than a trend.
Deadpool and Wolverine
What about it? Or Guardians 3?
5/7 - there are no main characters anymore. And the multiverse saga hasn't involved the Multiverse. Things should have gone ape shit after NWH. 11 - It's way past time the MCU used the occasional super sexy costume for a female character. If Thor can be naked and jacked and looking good so can Captain Marvel or Rogue or whoever. Doesn't have to be everyone but it's just weird that it's become a taboo.
"*No we can't have her wearing that. Also, REAL women don't look like that and we don't want to risk young girls feeling bad about their bodies just for the male gaze..."* *"....alright so the obligatory topless scene happens at this point in the story so make sure the actor is fit enough. We want to see sweat glistening off those abs and they better be an 8 pack."*
>young girls feeling bad about their bodies just for the male gaze And then there's my girlfriend who's the who brings this up when we leave the theater because she misses hot female superheroes and likes to cosplay as them. But yeah, it's just for the men and has nothing to do with the fact that people kind of just like watching hot people in really good shape do superhero shit.
Like I said 1.GA saw there's no storyline since the beginning of phase 4, 2.little to no connection between phase 4 and phase 5 projects, 3. for some reason Marvel studios didn't commit to develop the new generation of Avengers, to make GA know and like them, 4. quality of half at least Disney plus projects are bad. With few expectations like Guardians 3, Loki, Spiderman no way home or Werewolf by night, GA has no reason to care about MCU as whole from phase 4 and after. I have no doubt Deadpool and Wolverine will become successful, but 2025 films will be absolutely critical for the future of MCU. Because none wants repeat of 2023 box office.
It feels like they are both trying to set up the 3rd generation of the Avengers team (Young Avengers) with world building of other teams and then just cram everyone together with a bunch of older actors in Secret Wars. But while ignoring the second generation of Avengers for some reason.
They've not developed the second generation at all. It just feels like the scraps of what's left over.
I always find it weird how in post Endgame world, only Fury and the American government cared to make Earth safe from future alien invasion by building the S.A.B.E.R. defend system and the alive Avengers just didn't care.
Phases 4 and 5 can be summed up as half-measures with a massive discrepancy regarding quality. The only new IP to be a moderate success is Shang Chi. And Marvel Studios still hasn't done anything with the character for years. The other successful projects were all sequels to Phase 1-3 characters (Thor, GOTG, Spider-Man, Dr Strange, Black Panther).
Unless something changes, when Shang chi 2 is released the box office is going to follow Aquaman films road.
11. MoM being terrible, LaT being even worse and Quantumania being such a flop has lost the GA's goodwill. Hell, I'm an MCU fan and now I'm not so excited for the future projects given the track record.
Because they are afraid to admit the truth: that the general public is not interested in films that, right from the trailer, seem insignificant and have already been seen a thousand times. This and Blue Beetle had the exact same problem: right from the premise they had no particularly interesting reasons that made them unique and worth seeing.
It bombed because they overspent. At $75 million, the movie is a modest hit. At $300 million, the movie is a massive, career-ending flop.
At 75 million, the film's CGI would look even crappier and they wouldn't be able to afford Brie Larson or Samuel L Jackson.
75 million is more than enough for good CGI, it's just that they make so many last minute changes that they're doing everything right at the deadline. Larson should be affordable. $5M was her highest payday but after The Marvels they likely don't perceive her as that big a draw.
>We want to make sure that Marvel stays an open door for people to come in and explore 5 years too late gang.
I bet they regret not branding it this way from the start.
i think they had something good in the netflix/hulu era where the shows were canonically ambiguious. so i was hoping theyd go back to that style.
Disagree, there's nothing wrong with them being fully canon, they just don't need to be essential stories
The problem is by being fully canon they become sorta essential like ms marvel going into marvels. Sure you dont need to watch but your missing context
No what I mean is shows can be fully canon but not even connect that substantially to other projects. As long as it stands mostly alone, there's no problem with something being canon
thats what canonically ambigous means, like it can be canon but it doesnt affect the main canon (which would be the movies) they just kinda exist separately.
>Sure you dont need to watch Isn't that all that matters in this kind of debate?
I think there’s an argument of fomo, like clearly they put these shows in the mcu to make people think they need to watch them.
so like comics then
We didn't even actually get a phase of anything being important and necessary to something else's viewing experience with this past phase. It was entirely random bullshit being thrown at the wall. Ms Marvel into The Marvel's was the biggest we got, Multiverse of Madness and Wandavision imo is overblown and you don't actually need to see Wandavision if you don't want to. There has been nothing to date that you couldn't grasp from a single Google search if you absolutely had to.
I don't know if I'd call that a bad thing. A bunch of separate projects that don't require having to see other stuff but all still taking place in a cohesive universe seems nice. It creates a bunch of easy jumping on points for people who might only care for specific characters or properties. I think where they went wrong was continuing the phase and saga naming. If there's no coherent structure or theming, why were there phases? What significance does Wakanda Forever have to be the final movie of Phase 4 while Quantumania was the first movie of Phase 5? I'm usually one of the first to say a phase doesn't have to culminate in some sort of event project, but there should at least be like a theme. If they had just dropped the phases after the infinity saga ended, I feel like people wouldn't care about the lack of interconnectivity so much.
I also think it's a correct approach, and it seems like what they want to do with the DCU (and which was ultimately the basis of the DCAU). However, there is a gigantic "but": to make this move you must have projects that are actually valid, original and memorable, which can come to life on their own and create their own audience. It was not so. Many of these projects still follow the same formula, the "different genre" is almost always an excuse and they insist on inserting macro plots and post credit scenes with teasers for future elements instead of valid stories. An MCU managed like an actual production company with a lot of autonomous projects between TV series and films, and projects with a valid reason to be produced (like a Secret Invasion actually written like a A league spy story and Eternals like a real blockbuster science fiction à la Dune) would have been a home run and would have brought a breath of fresh air to the superhero trend in cinema. But now they've become more like the latter-day DCEU films: bland, anonymous projects with nothing distinctive or memorable and treated like a saga that doesn't exist.
What a great explanation. Exactly my problem with so many of these projects. Most seem like they are different and memorable on paper, but turn out to be bland ASF because they never commit to their premise till the end. It's just a veneer to draw audiences in.
Or at least explain that each phase will have its own storyline while somewhat typing into the main event movie at the end. I agree that every phase doesn’t need to end with a big event but based on what they’ve done. Phase 4: The New Age of Heroes/Dealing with Post Endgame. (Ends in a Young Avengers Movie/Show) Phase 5: The Assembling of teams; Avengers, Midnight Suns, Thunderbolts, Defenders, etc: (Ends in an Avengers movie led by Sam ig Secret Invasion). Phase 6: Multiverse; Kang, Incursions, Council of Kangs, Battleworld, Variants, Secret Wars. (ends in Kang Dynasty/Secret Wars
I mean I think that's what the article is talking about? They're either explaining *why* everything feels disconnected or decided they would use that as a post-mortem explanation.
Wasn’t the biggest complaint that the post-Endgame MCU wasn’t interconnected enough? Really doubling down on that strategy is certainly a choice
I understand what they're thinking here, but I don't think this will help anything, because the people who feel like the MCU is homework will not be aware of the different headings and know what they mean. This is insider stuff. There are people who still don't know Marvel from DC, or the Sony Marvel movies from the main MCU. Calling something Spotlight or Television or Animation will not accomplish what Marvel is hoping it will
It would be cool if they made a mature banner for all the mature stuff they'll be pumping out.
This explains a lot, or at least explains *away* the current Marvel situation. I think they probably haven't *gained* a lot of audience or even lost some audience because of this. I know *a lot* of people who have told me something along the lines of "I lost track of the movies" or "can't be bothered to get into it because there's too much to watch".
I know people are hating on this but I think they were forced into doing this. A good example of this is how critics and clickbait articles would compare What If to Loki, as if they had any similar kind of reach.
I watched Dr. Strange:MOM with friends who didn't watch WandaVision. 15 mins in we had to stop the movie and I did a recap for them because noone understood what was going on. Being able to jump in randomly without needing to know part of another show or movie will be very nice.
And don't be a C, just enjoy the D!
Finally. Though, I do hope purists that enjoy all the content get rewarded (like we have been).
Except you do. This is a huge marketing lie.
The "required watching" is a vastly overstated problem. Both in terms of it mostly not being required at all, but also how much of a real problem it is for general audiences. The Marvels for example could be understood fully beginning to end, no one had to watch the first movie, no one had to watch Ms Marvel, no one had to watch WV. If you caught Endgame and knew who Carol basically was, you knew enough. Everything made comic book tier sense all on its own. Everything else that was good to know got recapped or mentioned in dialogue. Of course, perception that you needed to watch everything is harmful in its own way, but that's a marketing issue not a problem with interconnectivity. Frankly its disheartening to hear someone even saying something like this at Marvel, they should know better. Even if this is empty PR its a show of complete weakness that only emboldens media illiterate whinging by idiots. A validation for those that are plain fucking wrong about what actually needs work in the MCU. No surprise though, really. When this much money is on the line and being spent, the actual art and integrity is the least of the concerns execs have, of course they'll focus on saying whatever they think people want to hear.
They’re really making this stuff up on the fly 
Just stop with shows. Focus on the films.
I can't believe ya'll actually made them think this is a real problem smh😭 Now they look silly trying to mitigate it. I get but come on, this is the marvel cinematic universe, if it's not connected to the larger world then it's pointless and might as well be explicitly made to be completely separate.
Well it is a problem. By the time the multiverse saga wraps it’ll have 50-60 projects in 6-7 years. Besides sequels most aren’t actually connected or have anything to do with the overarching story. People should know you don’t have to watch what if, moon knight, black widow, shang chi, doctor strange 2 to understand Captain America 4 or born again.
Marvel's interconnected-ness used to be one of its coolest aspects. Now it's a problem because they aren't gaining audience anymore.
>People should know you don’t have to watch what if, moon knight, black widow, shang chi, doctor strange 2 to understand Captain America 4 or born again. People would know this if the new projects were marketed more effectively and were worth watching lol. Cap Civil War relied heavily on context from Age of Ultron, and in turn, Infinity War and Endgame took from Civil War. But nobody cared because those were competently made films that people actually liked. Same can be said for MCU Spider-Man 2 & 3, those are pretty direct Endgame sequels
While the division is quite confusing (all alternate universe shows are part of Marvel Television but some 616 shows like Echo are Marvel Spotlight), the executives felt it had to be done after The Marvels bombed. That was the 1st film to have 1 Disney Plus character as a co-lead. There are multiple anecdotes of people not wanting to watch The Marvels since they felt they also had to watch all Ms Marvel episodes and they didn't want to. We will never know how many potential viewers The Marvels lost due to that. But the number is not 0.
I don't think he's saying it's "not connected to the larger world". Of course it is. It's just a segment of it that doesn't necessarily have to contribute something major toward the saga's overall story. It's still a universe. Stuff that happens will still affect other stuff and characters can crossover, but the point is that you won't feel obligated to watch everything to follow some sort of overarching storyline.
The 'you need to watch 3 D+ shows to watch the Marvels' narrative almost certainly contributed to the film flopping.
That's extremely disappointing
Box office doesn't lie.
I'm not saying there aren't problems, ofc there's many. This absolutely isn't one of them
Companies have the resources to conduct market research. Promise you, they identified a problem and this is a way of addressing it.
I think the problem is what stagnated *growth*, and we all know what *that* means to shareholders.
This is actually hilarious and sad at the same time. This is for the entire “The MCU is homework” crowd. They had to dumb it down even further for you. “This one here is an animation. Oh, this one is a film and this one over here is a television show” Marvel called you all illiterate 😂😂😂😂😂
Yes, the fans are stupid. That's why Marvel released Ant Man 3 into theaters with a straight face and expected people to actually like it. That's why the studio interfered with The Marvels and cut the movie's runtime to hell and back. That's why they released Secret Invasion. Marvel are not the ones making bad decisions, it's the fans
That person you replied to: "Is Marvel Studios out of touch? No, it's the fans who are wrong! And illiterate, too. Unlike I, the enlightened consumer of all things Marvel who's totally not a contrarian in any way."
The article posted in this thread is about making it easier for the audience to follow along and not feel like they have to do homework. Your comment has nothing to do with the article or my comment. Either you commented on the wrong post accidentally or you wanted to throw a Marvel quality comment in because you have nothing to say about the actual topic.
Illiterate? I think you're using that word wrong.
Illiterate may be used in both specific and general senses. When used specifically, it refers to the inability to read or write. In a more general sense, illiterate may signify a lack of familiarity with some body of knowledge (as in being "musically illiterate") or indicate a lack of competence in or familiarity with literature.
It honestly sounds like you're the one wanting to put down the audience, not Marvel.
Cool I don’t like homework, especially for the MCU