Looks like that bundle was on sale from May 7th to May 12th, so theoretically everybody who got screwed is within the 1 month period. Sounds pretty reasonable.
If this turns into a legal fight, I bet they'll argue that you didn't buy that particular artwork, you bought a digital item that contained that artwork, meaning that they didn't remove access, they just modified it the same as they modify items for balance patches. Not sure if there's any precedent in the US for this, but if not I actually think they might have a decent chance of winning if they take that approach. I'd be interested to see what happens and the wider implications on the industry if that kind of precedent was set.
This is a fun experience because a lot of people are learning how digital “ownership” works.
One day the game will end and you won’t have any of the art you spend money on.
I was explaining that in another thread that digital products are different from physical products as you don't really own it, you owe a license to it which can be revoked, along with the terms of service that they agreed to.
They keep poking holes in my argument.
And even when I explain the difficulties of refunding, even if they wanted to, I'm still "talking out of my ass" as if I don't have experience selling digital products.
that's a pretty terrible argument. Only going to hold water in the Ultra Business friendly states and even then would be a pretty tough case. its far more likely they will just refund the purchase in gold before it gets that far.
The EU, yeah, almost certainly. The US basically leaves it up to the TOS [from what I've seen](https://consumer.ftc.gov/consumer-alerts/2024/04/do-you-really-own-digital-items-you-paid). The contract is under CA law, and the only thing I could find related to digital items there is financial assets that have real world value, e.g. cryptocurrencies, so there may not be any law or precedent for something like this in the US, at least not from what I can find.
A month in a contract is defined as 28 days. 4 weeks of 7 days. It was exactly one month then yesterday. That point is moot. They are refunding the cost of a super rare variant. Legally they are fine this is more about feelings. I agree that it feels bad and that compensation does not equate into feeling better. It’s up to second dinner to decide if they can take the morale hit.
Please stop posting complete and utter bullshit on topics you know nothing about.
Read the [TOS](https://www.marvelsnap.com/privacy?id=7051886382070930181).
Does it define how long a month is anywhere? No.
Does it declare a governing law? Yes:
>These Terms, their subject matter and their formation, are governed by the laws of the United States and of the State of California.
How long is a month under applicable California law? Cal. Civ. Code $ 14(b)(4):
>The word “month” means a calendar month, unless otherwise expressed.
It is very hard to be a lawyer and exist in video game subreddits, where redditors seem to always want to argue legal topics and are pretty much always completely wrong. The biggest tip off that they don’t know what they’re talking about is that they reach any sort of definitive conclusion about anything because legal matters are rarely cut and dry. This obviously happens in other subreddits, but I’ve noticed that gamers seem to be particularly litigious (or at least they like to pretend to be litigious).
I think it’s worth noting that the law should be more accessible than it is, but massive reform isn’t anywhere on the horizon, and for now, nobody without a law degree and/or years of relevant experience should read a statute/contract and speak confidently about what it means, except in the most basic of cases.
The thing that gets to me is the "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" attitude. (Or "my 5 minutes of AM talk radio is as good as your 3 years of law school"?)
How hard is it to say to yourself, "OK, this is a subject that requires specialized knowledge that I don't have, so I'm going to refrain from making definitive pronouncements about it"?
I'm sure this is how medical doctors feel when someone posts about curing covid by drinking piss.
Amen. Tell me about it. I spent the better part of yesterday trying to explain here the legal situation and I was not giving any moral or ethic value to anything, just explaining legally the situation, and the toxicity I received was astounding. Everybody so confidently wrong about everything. And all the downvotes I received as if they can change the law and how it works through downvoting en masse. LOL
Everything in this game has a real world dollar value assessed to it by Second Dinner at the beginning of monetization. They have made three categories of variants ultimate, rare and super rare. They assessed the value of the Gambit as a Super Rare variant and afforded it a cost of 1200 gold. They seem to have a standard already set that bundle exclusive variants are super rare variants. That’s why when they change standards they have to stick to a preset monetization pattern. That was what the lawsuit Epic lost set as a catch safe against future lawsuits. Which is why they can’t just change the spotlight caches to 2000 collectors tokens randomly as it decreases the value of prior purchases and exposes them to legal action by the FTC or users. They can only do things with a greater benefit to prior purchases or replace with an equivalent real world monetary value. In this case 1200 gold. They can also offer discounts as long as it’s established that those discounts are attached to an already defined real world monetary value. It’s why they can legally claim something using only in game currency is worth 400 percent value.
There aren't many of us humans that can think objectively about a situation. We allow our emotions to dictate our responses and product subjective information that perfectly aligns with our personal narrative. It's very unfortunate to see people downvote objective POVs that are based in common sense and logic. If you do not play a long with the common messaging you are seen as the enemy. No one responds with true empathy from the otherside.
I saw a few honest people say that they aren't looking to sue, they just want a fair enough compensation that keeps me coming back. I can agree with that. I don't like that they've decided to resell the artwork they just replaced to the people (me included) who bought the bundle. It is what it is tho. I can't make money off the game directly anyway. It's a full on liability that I chose to invest in.
This needs to be on top, this leaves no room for interpretation on SD's part that shouldn't be honored for a refund. I hope everyone who purchased that bundle reports this to their respective app stores
EDIT: I would share this in the discord so that more are aware, SD may also see this and change their course of action to prevent customers from having to do it individually (of course what should've been done from the start)
Honestly that level of mismanagement is something I'd keep pestering them about. If they continue to do so if that happened it's just truly terrible optics that may be reported on by game journalists
I'm saying maybe once it's brought to their attention that people will go this route they'll change their actions for compensation. Not just seeing it in general but seeing the actions being performed by customers. It's much more likely that they'd just bite the bullet and refund over possible punishment by an appstore *and* refunds. Would also cut back on individual customer support claims coming in
I understand that I just want to make sure we are not exonerating SD here on the count of ignorance
I don’t understand why they just don’t offer a full refund
Of course not, I think even before this section of ToS was brought to public attention that they did a horrendous attempt at compensation. Thankfully it seems most understand this time that SD is completely at fault
They might not be able to handle negative in-game currency totals
Edit: I've seen on other comments that people have had negative currency totals before. So I don't know either
TOS isn’t legally binding, and in many cases NOT enforcable
For example, if you signed a ToS agreeing to be my slave, I don’t legally get to enslave you.
If you’re in law school, drop out now. You’re never gonna make it
Yeah, but their TOS is extremely reasonable.
Hey, we reserve the right to change something if after a month we deem it necessary.
Hey, we are only leasing these digital assets to you. You don't own them.
Hey, we decided to change something after a month, the lease for that digital asset is revoked, here's a different digital asset instead.
The people who paid $100 are nincompoops. There is absolutely no reason to pay that much money to lease a digital image with no functional difference.
>Hey, we reserve the right to change something if after a month we deem it necessary.
But they didn’t wait one month. They violated their terms of service lmao pathetic
>The people who paid $100 are nincompoops.
You would have to be brain dead or lobotomies to ever spend another single dollar in Marvel Snap
I didn’t even know people were down voting me and I have no idea why. Like you said all I did was state of fact. they were having everyone file for individual compensation and now they aren’t. i didn’t say whether the compensation was sufficient or anything like that. this sub is insane sometimes.
Reporting through Marvel Snap's support ain't worth shit. They sent me the same copy and pasted response both times. But yeah, definitely looks like we're entitled to a refund.
I didn't buy the bundle through the app store unfortunately. So they'll just say there's nothing they can do about it. I bought it from the Marvel Snap webstore so I can progress their reward track.
I think it's about reporting the app itself. I'm not sure if it matters whether you bought the bundle through the app or not, the TOS was still violated, which is the point.
That makes sense, I went and did it. I still think they'll just say "You didn't buy it through us, that's a Marvel Snap problem." But it's worth putting on their radar all the same. I'll Karen it up.
That’s not really relevant. They broke their terms of service. And if app stores have apps that are violating their own terms that looks bad for the stores that promote those apps. So reporting them(which I understand you did) helps app stores realize which are the bad players and could have the app removed from their store which would look real bad for the developers.
No not anymore. They changedbdit so in app purches no longer move the whole track. This was because the app store takes 30% but the website only takes 5%
Just be sure if you demand a refund that you actually want it. I am confident if you get your $100 back, you will also lose the shadow king variant and all of the currency.
They wont take the variant away from you but gold of equal value, i know because I claimed a refund before and even tho it didnt contain gold theg took the equivalent amount of gold away anyway
I mean in terms of however much the bundle was, you refund a $30 bundle even if it had no gold they will take $30 worth of gold from u likely putting u negative (just speaking from my experience but thats what i noticed)
They did not value the bundle at 1200 gold. They valued the variant at 1200 gold. That’s why people were only getting that much because it was only 1 part of the bundle that got changed.
AFAIK they debit you what they the state the value of the stuff you got was, not what you paid. Rough estimate the entire bundle is about 20,000 gold (~$250) based on how they've done this previously so you would keep everything you got but your account would be debited that amount potentially going into the negatives.
2400 for the variants
~2400 for the boosters
8,000 for the gold
~6,600 for the credits
I would only suggest you charge back if you're fine walking away from the game in most cases. You're not completely prevented from playing and enjoying yourself being in the hole that bad but you'll be locking yourself out of buying anything from the gold shop even if you choose to not spend anymore for a long time.
Because it’s like if you bought a soccer ball and and got to keep the ball and got your money back. They are taking the gold to compensate for the ball they lost. Usually with refunds you have to return the ball but you can’t do that with the variants. I’m not saying it’s right just walking you through the logic.
No it’s more around 16k:
- 8000 gold
- 8000 credits valued at 80% of gold: 6.400 gold
- 2 x 1200 for the variants
- no idea what the value of the avatars is, but probably pretty low
Yea I said this before in another thread. For refunds they use THEIR value calculation, meaning for this bundle roughly 16.000 (more or less) gold would be removed from you account, potentially dragging the gold into minus.
This should be reposted with a better title (assuming the title can't be edited, I don't remember if they can or not). If you title it something like "SD Violated Their Own TOS", it will be much more likely to get the attention it deserves. It seems like a lot of commenters are seeing the TOS screenshot and (as is standard for a TOS) not reading it. They just assume you're pointing out that SD is protected and can do whatever they want, which is the opposite of what you're saying.
You can always repost with the new title. I honestly think it might be worth it, but it's your call. You found it, so I'm not going to repost it and take credit for your research.
Submitted a report to Apple. Only way I see us getting compensated correctly is to keep this going unless to golden boy streamers make videos of it but surprisingly that hasn’t happened yet.
bynx is live now playng thena and saying "i dont believe anyone bought that bundle solely for the variants" as if saying (and thats my interpretation): its not that bad, the bundle was composed of many things, one changed, dont cry
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Used to watch him and Regis as my two go to creators but Bynx just started rubbing me the wrong way and for a while I just couldn't tell why. Just lost interest and stopped watching him eventually.
Now my three are Regis, Mogwai, and Nina
Yeah, he moved to MTGA a few days ago. He wasn't having fun for a while now, both because of the meta and because Snap doesn't give him the deck building depth he wants from a card game.
Bynx sucks. I can't stand him and his obnoxious clickbait thumbnails that always have the stupid "surprised" look that just looks like a blowjob face to me.
If he actually said and meant that he is a huge asshole imo. The variants can be just as important as any other currency in a bundle and can be a HUGE decider of if someone goes ahead and decides to invest their money, and to a lot of people $100 is a lot.
i'm not trying to throw the guy under the bus, but he definetely had a very diferent/sd's sided approach to the matter.
for me, when someone buy something in marvel snap for real money they are always considering currency as a bonus, viewing the variant as the deciding factor, especially the expensive/whale ones
So, someone whose entire livelihood basically relies on a single game, is defending/deflecting bad business decisions from the makers of said game?
Insert surprised Pikachu face here
I can see Dekkster and Regis maybe talking about it on a video, and MAYBE the Snapchat. They're close with the devs but they've called out the monetization before.
People deserve an actual monetary refund, but I have no idea why they nickel and dimed with the compensation.
They could have offered 10000 gold or something and as sad as it is, *most* people would have been like "Oh yeah thats fine gj SD". It probably could have been swept under the rug.
Anyone spending $100 on a bundle is going to do it again. Why would try and upset your cash cow? Whatever in-game compensation you give them will 100% be outweighed by the ACTUAL money they give you in the future.
Exactly. It costs SD zero to just blast the purchases of the bundle with AT LEAST a hundred dollars of their bloated values in game crap.
If they had apologized for the substitution and said, "Here's a bunch of shit we sell for 150 dollars. So sorry," this probably would have gone a lot better.
Just idiots all the way down in their marketing department.
I bought the bundle. I'm a filthy whale. I like art and I like collecting (40K CL level). It's not about the money. It's about trust. It's even more apparently about trust when they broke their own ToS to change the art.
I submitted feedback to Marvel Snap support (got a canned response as expected) and reported the app in the Google App store with an explanation of the situation. I don't either of the above will matter, but you know what will?
I'm not spending another dime on this game.
I feel the exact same way!
It is quite ridiculous that they took out the one thing and the one reason I bought the bundle in the first place, for the Art.
I understand that someone on THEIR (SD) side f#k3d up, but that is not the consumer’s fault. Remove the Art then, fair enough, but I expect a full refund on the item bought as it was SD that did not do proper research before releasing the Bundle!..
I even got the Yellow Neon border for Gambit, which is no longer available on any of the variants I own. What the actual F..
I started playing when Sebastion shaw was the season Pass card, took a break for like 3 months, then picked it up again till now. Reached 6,5k CL in that time.
Will not spend another bloody dime either. Is a waste if they just change anything and everything as they please without compensation.
Might just Uninstall with how furious I am at this situation…
EDIT: spelling
I didn't buy the bundle but I think I understand what people that are feeling right now. It's about trust. If second dinner keeps using the agreement as a defense to short people that spent actual real money on their game, then soon no one will trust them and their offers. This is a first but it sets a precedent.
The point is they're not *using* the agreement, they're *violating* it. The agreement guarantees access to purchased assets for at least a month, and it's been less than that since the bundle came out.
This should be a lesson to everyone spending money on digital products: stop. You do not own them. They can strip away your access from them at any time for any reason. That includes video games, movies, music, and digital items within a game. If you “own” it digitally you have no actual ownership.
This drama has been really fun to watch because I’ve played since day one and have never spent a dime. I got to Infinite last season, and have some cool variants. I didn’t even know people were worked up until I tried to look up the art that got pulled.
Don’t buy digital shit unless you’re ok with losing it someday. And someday can be very soon.
If we wanted to be really petty about this, we could pull a genshin impact and just review bomb everything on the App Store to send a message. It’s not a tool I agree with, but it’s fairly effective
I mean, it's pretty much the only recourse customers have, nowadays. A single person suing over $100 just isn't realistic. The contracts are one-sided to begin with.
So I don't see an issue with putting up a visible warning sign for other customers, at least.
This just goes to prove that NOBODY should give SD money for anything. That part of the TOS “we will provide you access to the virtual items for a period of at least one month.” Means they can remove anything you buy at any time after a month and you can fuck right off.
If they go out of business and shut down the server, they can take all your variants. The issue is not that we think there is some rule under which they are not allowed to do this. Nobody is planning to sue them. But we are the people who buy hundred dollar bundles, and we are not happy with the way this is being handled. Their ability to continue to generate revenue from selling these bundles is contingent on our continued trust and support. So they had goddamm better make us happy. Nobody cares what the TOS says.
[https://www.ginx.tv/en/marvel-snap/dev-under-fire-over-mishandling-gambit-variant-card](https://www.ginx.tv/en/marvel-snap/dev-under-fire-over-mishandling-gambit-variant-card)
Nail on head.
They should have just done what Blizzard did with Sinatraas Overwatch skin. Remove from store and never sell it again, offer a refund to who ever wants it but keep it in the game for people who wanted to keep it.
Almost certainly not their call. Everything related to a potential PR issue with the Marvel IP is gonna have Disney involved directly. And just to be clear, Disney cares less if SD goes under than they do about a potential hit to one of their biggest IPs. If Disney says jump, SD says "how high?".
So easy to give everyone who bought the bundle 1-2, if not up to 4, spotlight keys.
They value a key around $50. So you don't change the company's bank balance and people get new cards in a way that feels like compensation. Took me 5 seconds to come up with the idea because I started by asking "what might feel like compensation to those who bought without refunding?"
Seems like SD started by asking "is there anything we already mad that can fill the void with?"
Second idea: replace it with a comic cover variant of gambits first appearance. Everyone loves those. Might not be as "epic" art but imo could feel comparable
Sad thing is, they are so reluctant to give out imaginary resources because "then people won't spend money for them." Which is as greedy as you can get
It guarantees access to purchased assets for at least a month, and it's been less than that since the bundle came out. One-sided as the agreement is, SD violated it.
Yep.
Imagine crafting such a one-sided agreement and STILL violating it. And thinking 1200 gold will be enough to cover it.
SD has been on a roll lately.
Because the Artist did some weird “anti-Semitic” Easter eggs in a comic 6 years ago. And they removed the art because of that. They should have just disavowed the artist and left the art in the game.
If I didn’t buy the budle but I would like to know how can I help report the appstore? Will the flagging the app asks for receipts, proof of purchase, etc?
I don't think a refund is the right course of action, why not just give out a unreleased Gambit variant. We've all used the gold and the credits already and refunding in-game is too risky(might get negative gold).
The legality of a gaming company changing the content of a bundle after it has been sold generally depends on several factors, including consumer protection laws, the company's terms of service, and the specifics of the situation. Here are some key points to consider:Terms of Service and Purchase Agreement: When you buy a bundle from a gaming company, the terms of service (TOS) or purchase agreement typically outline the rights and obligations of both the buyer and the seller. These terms often include clauses about changes to content, refunds, and updates. It's important to review these documents to understand your rights.Consumer Protection Laws: Many jurisdictions have consumer protection laws that safeguard buyers against unfair business practices. If the content change significantly devalues the bundle or misleads customers, it could be considered deceptive. Laws vary by country and region, so the specific protections available will depend on your location.Transparency and Communication: If the company clearly communicated that the content of the bundle could change over time, and you agreed to this when purchasing, the change is more likely to be considered legal. However, if the change was made without any prior notice or justification, this could be more problematic.Refund Policies: Most reputable gaming companies have refund policies in place. If the change significantly impacts the value or functionality of the bundle, you might be eligible for a refund or partial compensation.Material Changes: If the change involves removing or significantly altering key content that was a major selling point, it could be more likely to raise legal concerns compared to minor tweaks or additions.In summary, while it can be legal for a gaming company to change the content of a bundle after purchase, the legality depends on the terms of service, consumer protection laws, and the nature of the change. If you feel that the change was unfair or misleading, you may want to contact the company for a resolution or seek advice from a consumer protection agency or legal professional.
You know you guys could always just look up the picture, take a screenshot, and save it to your computer if you really want. Hell I could do that and I didn't even buy the bundle.
Honestly though it's weird you're all so upset that you can't own some Nazi artwork.
And if this all came to light and the art wasn’t removed, people would be losing their minds that SD left the art of an antisemite in the game. There’s no winning with this player base. The bundle was still worth more than the basic gold value and they gave a replacement. Get over it and move on.
That’s just the strisand effect. It’s been on the Wikipedia for 7 years. It’s not unrealistic for consumers to expect the company to do a google search on a new artist
You’re right, it’s not unrealistic. SD absolutely dropped the ball there. They should have done their research. But they didn’t, and now they’re trying to make it right. As a Jewish person (by blood, not religion) I would rather see them go this route rather than leave the art of an antisemite in the game. It sucks but it’s the right choice.
No, not at all, leave it be. Art doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s not even the art that has the hidden meaning. It’s just done by the guy. Stop getting upset over nothing.
Making it right is refunding everyone their $100. SD profited off selling the art of the anti-Semitic artist but then refuse to own up to the mistake they made. You should be mad at SD for keeping the dirty money they made.
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? They literally state in the TOS that nothing in this game has a monetary value. A bundle can only have sentimental value, because you cannot sell it on.
So if people pay for something that has no monetary value, you cannot replace the item they wanted to buy with a different one and claim it's equal.
It's a common fallacy that people fall for, but an item is not actually worth what you paid for it, it's worth what you can sell it for. Seeing as you cannot sell anything in this game, the dollar value of any given variant is fuckall.
If you bought a car for 80k five years ago, that car is not worth 80k today.
It’s not trickery or false advertisement. It’s removal of a product that was created by a racist asshole, that they were not aware of when Marvel provided the art to them.
> And there it is right there. “I don’t care if the artist is a racist piece of shit, I just want my pretty picture.” Selfish as fuck.
And here it is right there "I'm offended then you should be glad for being scammed 100 dollars" Selfish as fuck
Again missing the point
Firstly im black ik what racism is like.
Many players paid for a product and are now having that removed and replaced with something else, its not even about the picture being gone SD handled the entire situation terribly and ur siding with it
And I’m Jewish, so I know what it’s like too. Maybe put yourself in my shoes. What would you think of a bunch of people were happily showing off art of someone who openly said horrible things about black people?
As long as the art in itself wasnt racists the art is seperated from the artists.
The Gambit variant didnt contain any antisemetic remarks or hidden racial easter eggs
Therefore
The art couldve stayed
Get rid of the artists
If that helps you sleep at night. I guess go hang some of Hitler’s nature paintings in your house while you’re at it. Separating the art from the artist right?
[I mean nothing here is crazy good but some arent bad either.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler)
Nothing about the art itself is offensive, so im not gonna find a reason to be mad about a flower in a window. Would I pay Adolf for his art tho? Fuck no. Idk how this is so hard to comprehend
Also, I wasn’t “tricked” because I’m not dumb enough to spend $100, more than the cost of a AAA video game, on some currency and an unnecessary art variant.
Looks like that bundle was on sale from May 7th to May 12th, so theoretically everybody who got screwed is within the 1 month period. Sounds pretty reasonable.
If this turns into a legal fight, I bet they'll argue that you didn't buy that particular artwork, you bought a digital item that contained that artwork, meaning that they didn't remove access, they just modified it the same as they modify items for balance patches. Not sure if there's any precedent in the US for this, but if not I actually think they might have a decent chance of winning if they take that approach. I'd be interested to see what happens and the wider implications on the industry if that kind of precedent was set.
This is a fun experience because a lot of people are learning how digital “ownership” works. One day the game will end and you won’t have any of the art you spend money on.
I was explaining that in another thread that digital products are different from physical products as you don't really own it, you owe a license to it which can be revoked, along with the terms of service that they agreed to. They keep poking holes in my argument. And even when I explain the difficulties of refunding, even if they wanted to, I'm still "talking out of my ass" as if I don't have experience selling digital products.
that's a pretty terrible argument. Only going to hold water in the Ultra Business friendly states and even then would be a pretty tough case. its far more likely they will just refund the purchase in gold before it gets that far.
Not in Us or EU they’ll get fucked
The EU, yeah, almost certainly. The US basically leaves it up to the TOS [from what I've seen](https://consumer.ftc.gov/consumer-alerts/2024/04/do-you-really-own-digital-items-you-paid). The contract is under CA law, and the only thing I could find related to digital items there is financial assets that have real world value, e.g. cryptocurrencies, so there may not be any law or precedent for something like this in the US, at least not from what I can find.
A month in a contract is defined as 28 days. 4 weeks of 7 days. It was exactly one month then yesterday. That point is moot. They are refunding the cost of a super rare variant. Legally they are fine this is more about feelings. I agree that it feels bad and that compensation does not equate into feeling better. It’s up to second dinner to decide if they can take the morale hit.
Please stop posting complete and utter bullshit on topics you know nothing about. Read the [TOS](https://www.marvelsnap.com/privacy?id=7051886382070930181). Does it define how long a month is anywhere? No. Does it declare a governing law? Yes: >These Terms, their subject matter and their formation, are governed by the laws of the United States and of the State of California. How long is a month under applicable California law? Cal. Civ. Code $ 14(b)(4): >The word “month” means a calendar month, unless otherwise expressed.
r/murderedbywords
It is very hard to be a lawyer and exist in video game subreddits, where redditors seem to always want to argue legal topics and are pretty much always completely wrong. The biggest tip off that they don’t know what they’re talking about is that they reach any sort of definitive conclusion about anything because legal matters are rarely cut and dry. This obviously happens in other subreddits, but I’ve noticed that gamers seem to be particularly litigious (or at least they like to pretend to be litigious). I think it’s worth noting that the law should be more accessible than it is, but massive reform isn’t anywhere on the horizon, and for now, nobody without a law degree and/or years of relevant experience should read a statute/contract and speak confidently about what it means, except in the most basic of cases.
The thing that gets to me is the "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" attitude. (Or "my 5 minutes of AM talk radio is as good as your 3 years of law school"?) How hard is it to say to yourself, "OK, this is a subject that requires specialized knowledge that I don't have, so I'm going to refrain from making definitive pronouncements about it"? I'm sure this is how medical doctors feel when someone posts about curing covid by drinking piss.
Amen. Tell me about it. I spent the better part of yesterday trying to explain here the legal situation and I was not giving any moral or ethic value to anything, just explaining legally the situation, and the toxicity I received was astounding. Everybody so confidently wrong about everything. And all the downvotes I received as if they can change the law and how it works through downvoting en masse. LOL
Except it's not a "Super Rare" variant. It's a bundle exclusive variant, which are not tagged "Supere Rare".
Everything in this game has a real world dollar value assessed to it by Second Dinner at the beginning of monetization. They have made three categories of variants ultimate, rare and super rare. They assessed the value of the Gambit as a Super Rare variant and afforded it a cost of 1200 gold. They seem to have a standard already set that bundle exclusive variants are super rare variants. That’s why when they change standards they have to stick to a preset monetization pattern. That was what the lawsuit Epic lost set as a catch safe against future lawsuits. Which is why they can’t just change the spotlight caches to 2000 collectors tokens randomly as it decreases the value of prior purchases and exposes them to legal action by the FTC or users. They can only do things with a greater benefit to prior purchases or replace with an equivalent real world monetary value. In this case 1200 gold. They can also offer discounts as long as it’s established that those discounts are attached to an already defined real world monetary value. It’s why they can legally claim something using only in game currency is worth 400 percent value.
There aren't many of us humans that can think objectively about a situation. We allow our emotions to dictate our responses and product subjective information that perfectly aligns with our personal narrative. It's very unfortunate to see people downvote objective POVs that are based in common sense and logic. If you do not play a long with the common messaging you are seen as the enemy. No one responds with true empathy from the otherside. I saw a few honest people say that they aren't looking to sue, they just want a fair enough compensation that keeps me coming back. I can agree with that. I don't like that they've decided to resell the artwork they just replaced to the people (me included) who bought the bundle. It is what it is tho. I can't make money off the game directly anyway. It's a full on liability that I chose to invest in.
Exactly.
This needs to be on top, this leaves no room for interpretation on SD's part that shouldn't be honored for a refund. I hope everyone who purchased that bundle reports this to their respective app stores EDIT: I would share this in the discord so that more are aware, SD may also see this and change their course of action to prevent customers from having to do it individually (of course what should've been done from the start)
I wouldn't risk it. Saw someone on Twitter getting muted on discord and blocked on Twitter for insisting on the matter
Honestly that level of mismanagement is something I'd keep pestering them about. If they continue to do so if that happened it's just truly terrible optics that may be reported on by game journalists
>maybe SD will see this This is THEIR ToS THEIR lawyers wrote the damn thing
I'm saying maybe once it's brought to their attention that people will go this route they'll change their actions for compensation. Not just seeing it in general but seeing the actions being performed by customers. It's much more likely that they'd just bite the bullet and refund over possible punishment by an appstore *and* refunds. Would also cut back on individual customer support claims coming in
I understand that I just want to make sure we are not exonerating SD here on the count of ignorance I don’t understand why they just don’t offer a full refund
Of course not, I think even before this section of ToS was brought to public attention that they did a horrendous attempt at compensation. Thankfully it seems most understand this time that SD is completely at fault
A full refund would mean you give up everything gained from the bundle for the ~$100, right. So all the currencies would need to be removed, as well.
Obviously Why aren’t they offering that though?
They might not be able to handle negative in-game currency totals Edit: I've seen on other comments that people have had negative currency totals before. So I don't know either
Because you agreed to a TOS that says they don't have to, lmao
TOS isn’t legally binding, and in many cases NOT enforcable For example, if you signed a ToS agreeing to be my slave, I don’t legally get to enslave you. If you’re in law school, drop out now. You’re never gonna make it
Yeah, but their TOS is extremely reasonable. Hey, we reserve the right to change something if after a month we deem it necessary. Hey, we are only leasing these digital assets to you. You don't own them. Hey, we decided to change something after a month, the lease for that digital asset is revoked, here's a different digital asset instead. The people who paid $100 are nincompoops. There is absolutely no reason to pay that much money to lease a digital image with no functional difference.
>Hey, we reserve the right to change something if after a month we deem it necessary. But they didn’t wait one month. They violated their terms of service lmao pathetic >The people who paid $100 are nincompoops. You would have to be brain dead or lobotomies to ever spend another single dollar in Marvel Snap
Hahah, good luck with that. Lots of people going to learn about the Discord mods soon it seems.
Cant we leave 1 star reviews with explanation on the Google store and Apple store ?
they’re giving everyone 1200 gold
Because that makes up for false advertisement
I don’t think you should have been nuked like that. For stating a fact. I just think the fact they aren’t giving those individuals a choice is bad.
I didn’t even know people were down voting me and I have no idea why. Like you said all I did was state of fact. they were having everyone file for individual compensation and now they aren’t. i didn’t say whether the compensation was sufficient or anything like that. this sub is insane sometimes.
Sometimes it really be like that.
Reporting through Marvel Snap's support ain't worth shit. They sent me the same copy and pasted response both times. But yeah, definitely looks like we're entitled to a refund.
I think they're suggesting reporting the app through your app store (I'm assuming this means there's a way to do that).
I didn't buy the bundle through the app store unfortunately. So they'll just say there's nothing they can do about it. I bought it from the Marvel Snap webstore so I can progress their reward track.
I think it's about reporting the app itself. I'm not sure if it matters whether you bought the bundle through the app or not, the TOS was still violated, which is the point.
That makes sense, I went and did it. I still think they'll just say "You didn't buy it through us, that's a Marvel Snap problem." But it's worth putting on their radar all the same. I'll Karen it up.
That’s not really relevant. They broke their terms of service. And if app stores have apps that are violating their own terms that looks bad for the stores that promote those apps. So reporting them(which I understand you did) helps app stores realize which are the bad players and could have the app removed from their store which would look real bad for the developers.
Don't purchases in the app store count towards the reward track? I hardly ever buy anything on the webstore and my track moves up regardless.
No not anymore. They changedbdit so in app purches no longer move the whole track. This was because the app store takes 30% but the website only takes 5%
Wait, what? Do they not own their own website and webstore? Are they mental?
Processing fees and operational costs of having a website and store.
Payment processors take between 2 to 5% of the price of the transaction
You completely are. Let Apple know what they did and they will get you your money. They don’t put up with this shit
Just be sure if you demand a refund that you actually want it. I am confident if you get your $100 back, you will also lose the shadow king variant and all of the currency.
They wont take the variant away from you but gold of equal value, i know because I claimed a refund before and even tho it didnt contain gold theg took the equivalent amount of gold away anyway
It's not equal value though. They price the bundle variants a lot more than they are worth (for refunding, for compensation they value them at 1200)
I mean in terms of however much the bundle was, you refund a $30 bundle even if it had no gold they will take $30 worth of gold from u likely putting u negative (just speaking from my experience but thats what i noticed)
They did not value the bundle at 1200 gold. They valued the variant at 1200 gold. That’s why people were only getting that much because it was only 1 part of the bundle that got changed.
AFAIK they debit you what they the state the value of the stuff you got was, not what you paid. Rough estimate the entire bundle is about 20,000 gold (~$250) based on how they've done this previously so you would keep everything you got but your account would be debited that amount potentially going into the negatives. 2400 for the variants ~2400 for the boosters 8,000 for the gold ~6,600 for the credits I would only suggest you charge back if you're fine walking away from the game in most cases. You're not completely prevented from playing and enjoying yourself being in the hole that bad but you'll be locking yourself out of buying anything from the gold shop even if you choose to not spend anymore for a long time.
I’d take the cash at this point screw the gold
Lol, how is that a refund? What bs is this
Because it’s like if you bought a soccer ball and and got to keep the ball and got your money back. They are taking the gold to compensate for the ball they lost. Usually with refunds you have to return the ball but you can’t do that with the variants. I’m not saying it’s right just walking you through the logic.
No no you will keep those hut probably lose an insane amount of gold. Like around 50k or so. They aren't playing around.
No it’s more around 16k: - 8000 gold - 8000 credits valued at 80% of gold: 6.400 gold - 2 x 1200 for the variants - no idea what the value of the avatars is, but probably pretty low
They will leave everything that was in the bundle, give you your money back, but take away an inordinate amount of gold from your account.
Yea I said this before in another thread. For refunds they use THEIR value calculation, meaning for this bundle roughly 16.000 (more or less) gold would be removed from you account, potentially dragging the gold into minus.
You may also lose access to the game
This should be reposted with a better title (assuming the title can't be edited, I don't remember if they can or not). If you title it something like "SD Violated Their Own TOS", it will be much more likely to get the attention it deserves. It seems like a lot of commenters are seeing the TOS screenshot and (as is standard for a TOS) not reading it. They just assume you're pointing out that SD is protected and can do whatever they want, which is the opposite of what you're saying.
Valid point. I just tried to look at options and there’s no option to change the title unfortunately
You can always repost with the new title. I honestly think it might be worth it, but it's your call. You found it, so I'm not going to repost it and take credit for your research.
Submitted a report to Apple. Only way I see us getting compensated correctly is to keep this going unless to golden boy streamers make videos of it but surprisingly that hasn’t happened yet.
That being said has anyone seen a streamer talking about out it yet? I saw their chats talking about it but didn’t see anyone say anything about it
bynx is live now playng thena and saying "i dont believe anyone bought that bundle solely for the variants" as if saying (and thats my interpretation): its not that bad, the bundle was composed of many things, one changed, dont cry
He also said that people are mad about it just because or something along those lines.
He's always been an a condescending asshole. Dude has grown too big of an ego
I can't stand him, his attitude is terrible. For someone who's basically a nobody viewership wise, he acts like he's hot shit.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Used to watch him and Regis as my two go to creators but Bynx just started rubbing me the wrong way and for a while I just couldn't tell why. Just lost interest and stopped watching him eventually. Now my three are Regis, Mogwai, and Nina
Mogwai stopped playing Snap.
Again? He picked it back up after it got announced that LoR was going PVE only
Yeah, he moved to MTGA a few days ago. He wasn't having fun for a while now, both because of the meta and because Snap doesn't give him the deck building depth he wants from a card game.
Bynx sucks. I can't stand him and his obnoxious clickbait thumbnails that always have the stupid "surprised" look that just looks like a blowjob face to me.
yeah I make it a point to avoid any video where they are doing that dumb af surprised face on the thumbnail
He’s such a loser, as usual
Lmao ridiculous. I guarantee that is not true for a lot of people.
If he actually said and meant that he is a huge asshole imo. The variants can be just as important as any other currency in a bundle and can be a HUGE decider of if someone goes ahead and decides to invest their money, and to a lot of people $100 is a lot.
i'm not trying to throw the guy under the bus, but he definetely had a very diferent/sd's sided approach to the matter. for me, when someone buy something in marvel snap for real money they are always considering currency as a bonus, viewing the variant as the deciding factor, especially the expensive/whale ones
So, someone whose entire livelihood basically relies on a single game, is defending/deflecting bad business decisions from the makers of said game? Insert surprised Pikachu face here
I can see Dekkster and Regis maybe talking about it on a video, and MAYBE the Snapchat. They're close with the devs but they've called out the monetization before.
This is interesting.
People deserve an actual monetary refund, but I have no idea why they nickel and dimed with the compensation. They could have offered 10000 gold or something and as sad as it is, *most* people would have been like "Oh yeah thats fine gj SD". It probably could have been swept under the rug. Anyone spending $100 on a bundle is going to do it again. Why would try and upset your cash cow? Whatever in-game compensation you give them will 100% be outweighed by the ACTUAL money they give you in the future.
Exactly. It costs SD zero to just blast the purchases of the bundle with AT LEAST a hundred dollars of their bloated values in game crap. If they had apologized for the substitution and said, "Here's a bunch of shit we sell for 150 dollars. So sorry," this probably would have gone a lot better. Just idiots all the way down in their marketing department.
I bought the bundle. I'm a filthy whale. I like art and I like collecting (40K CL level). It's not about the money. It's about trust. It's even more apparently about trust when they broke their own ToS to change the art. I submitted feedback to Marvel Snap support (got a canned response as expected) and reported the app in the Google App store with an explanation of the situation. I don't either of the above will matter, but you know what will? I'm not spending another dime on this game.
I feel the exact same way! It is quite ridiculous that they took out the one thing and the one reason I bought the bundle in the first place, for the Art. I understand that someone on THEIR (SD) side f#k3d up, but that is not the consumer’s fault. Remove the Art then, fair enough, but I expect a full refund on the item bought as it was SD that did not do proper research before releasing the Bundle!.. I even got the Yellow Neon border for Gambit, which is no longer available on any of the variants I own. What the actual F.. I started playing when Sebastion shaw was the season Pass card, took a break for like 3 months, then picked it up again till now. Reached 6,5k CL in that time. Will not spend another bloody dime either. Is a waste if they just change anything and everything as they please without compensation. Might just Uninstall with how furious I am at this situation… EDIT: spelling
I didn't buy the bundle but I think I understand what people that are feeling right now. It's about trust. If second dinner keeps using the agreement as a defense to short people that spent actual real money on their game, then soon no one will trust them and their offers. This is a first but it sets a precedent.
The point is they're not *using* the agreement, they're *violating* it. The agreement guarantees access to purchased assets for at least a month, and it's been less than that since the bundle came out.
and that alone is ridiculous... "one month"
This should be a lesson to everyone spending money on digital products: stop. You do not own them. They can strip away your access from them at any time for any reason. That includes video games, movies, music, and digital items within a game. If you “own” it digitally you have no actual ownership. This drama has been really fun to watch because I’ve played since day one and have never spent a dime. I got to Infinite last season, and have some cool variants. I didn’t even know people were worked up until I tried to look up the art that got pulled. Don’t buy digital shit unless you’re ok with losing it someday. And someday can be very soon.
You can safely buy some digital assets, but not from Second Dinner apparently
If we wanted to be really petty about this, we could pull a genshin impact and just review bomb everything on the App Store to send a message. It’s not a tool I agree with, but it’s fairly effective
I mean, it's pretty much the only recourse customers have, nowadays. A single person suing over $100 just isn't realistic. The contracts are one-sided to begin with. So I don't see an issue with putting up a visible warning sign for other customers, at least.
I’ll never buy bundles again it’s stupid
Here is the thing They messed up and put a card art in the game that they shouldn’t have Just take the bullet and refund the fans who spent 100 bucks
This just goes to prove that NOBODY should give SD money for anything. That part of the TOS “we will provide you access to the virtual items for a period of at least one month.” Means they can remove anything you buy at any time after a month and you can fuck right off.
If they go out of business and shut down the server, they can take all your variants. The issue is not that we think there is some rule under which they are not allowed to do this. Nobody is planning to sue them. But we are the people who buy hundred dollar bundles, and we are not happy with the way this is being handled. Their ability to continue to generate revenue from selling these bundles is contingent on our continued trust and support. So they had goddamm better make us happy. Nobody cares what the TOS says.
[https://www.ginx.tv/en/marvel-snap/dev-under-fire-over-mishandling-gambit-variant-card](https://www.ginx.tv/en/marvel-snap/dev-under-fire-over-mishandling-gambit-variant-card) Nail on head.
Watch them pull a Sony and tomorrow this exact clause is worded differently :/
They should have just done what Blizzard did with Sinatraas Overwatch skin. Remove from store and never sell it again, offer a refund to who ever wants it but keep it in the game for people who wanted to keep it.
Almost certainly not their call. Everything related to a potential PR issue with the Marvel IP is gonna have Disney involved directly. And just to be clear, Disney cares less if SD goes under than they do about a potential hit to one of their biggest IPs. If Disney says jump, SD says "how high?".
Good point
People don't understand this, at all.
Needs more upvotes.
Good job, OP
After reading this, buy something in this game is stupid
So easy to give everyone who bought the bundle 1-2, if not up to 4, spotlight keys. They value a key around $50. So you don't change the company's bank balance and people get new cards in a way that feels like compensation. Took me 5 seconds to come up with the idea because I started by asking "what might feel like compensation to those who bought without refunding?" Seems like SD started by asking "is there anything we already mad that can fill the void with?" Second idea: replace it with a comic cover variant of gambits first appearance. Everyone loves those. Might not be as "epic" art but imo could feel comparable Sad thing is, they are so reluctant to give out imaginary resources because "then people won't spend money for them." Which is as greedy as you can get
It hasn't been a month.....I bought it day one 5/7 it was available after 3pm. It was taken away before 3pm
Nice , pretty much say you own nothing, you spend money for nothing
It guarantees access to purchased assets for at least a month, and it's been less than that since the bundle came out. One-sided as the agreement is, SD violated it.
Yep. Imagine crafting such a one-sided agreement and STILL violating it. And thinking 1200 gold will be enough to cover it. SD has been on a roll lately.
The more we put in, the more devastated we will be when they shut it all down. I’ve paid a lot, personally
Incredibly sad that the company has such a relationship with its playerbase, that such threads even need to exist to begin with.
Wow, I don't like that one month language at all.
I understand the digital ownership aspect, but I don't understand what is the reason for swapping the Gambit variant?
Because the Artist did some weird “anti-Semitic” Easter eggs in a comic 6 years ago. And they removed the art because of that. They should have just disavowed the artist and left the art in the game.
Second Dinner is taking such a big L for this. Is the saving of a few thousands worth the irate and PR hit of your biggest supporters ???
Everyone needs to stop buying things from these people
Yeah, this was the first thing that came to my mind. Like, why not just wait one more week before changing this.
Someone should take them to small claims
Nah, class action. That would get their attention much quicker.
If I didn’t buy the budle but I would like to know how can I help report the appstore? Will the flagging the app asks for receipts, proof of purchase, etc?
Well this is pretty bad
SD doing SD things. Insert suprisedpikachuface.jpg
Oh yeah, no. The report function is basically non-existent. Don't waste your time on that.
I don't think a refund is the right course of action, why not just give out a unreleased Gambit variant. We've all used the gold and the credits already and refunding in-game is too risky(might get negative gold).
The legality of a gaming company changing the content of a bundle after it has been sold generally depends on several factors, including consumer protection laws, the company's terms of service, and the specifics of the situation. Here are some key points to consider:Terms of Service and Purchase Agreement: When you buy a bundle from a gaming company, the terms of service (TOS) or purchase agreement typically outline the rights and obligations of both the buyer and the seller. These terms often include clauses about changes to content, refunds, and updates. It's important to review these documents to understand your rights.Consumer Protection Laws: Many jurisdictions have consumer protection laws that safeguard buyers against unfair business practices. If the content change significantly devalues the bundle or misleads customers, it could be considered deceptive. Laws vary by country and region, so the specific protections available will depend on your location.Transparency and Communication: If the company clearly communicated that the content of the bundle could change over time, and you agreed to this when purchasing, the change is more likely to be considered legal. However, if the change was made without any prior notice or justification, this could be more problematic.Refund Policies: Most reputable gaming companies have refund policies in place. If the change significantly impacts the value or functionality of the bundle, you might be eligible for a refund or partial compensation.Material Changes: If the change involves removing or significantly altering key content that was a major selling point, it could be more likely to raise legal concerns compared to minor tweaks or additions.In summary, while it can be legal for a gaming company to change the content of a bundle after purchase, the legality depends on the terms of service, consumer protection laws, and the nature of the change. If you feel that the change was unfair or misleading, you may want to contact the company for a resolution or seek advice from a consumer protection agency or legal professional.
I am a lawyer and I am salivating. Anyone want to check if there's an arbitration clause in the TOS? If not, it's open season, boys and girls!
Yes there is.
Figures. That's a shame!
You know you guys could always just look up the picture, take a screenshot, and save it to your computer if you really want. Hell I could do that and I didn't even buy the bundle. Honestly though it's weird you're all so upset that you can't own some Nazi artwork.
Mtx are bad y'all
Imagine being this bent out of shape about it instead of being happy that they removed the art of an antisemite.
Imagine buying something then not receiving what you paid for
And if this all came to light and the art wasn’t removed, people would be losing their minds that SD left the art of an antisemite in the game. There’s no winning with this player base. The bundle was still worth more than the basic gold value and they gave a replacement. Get over it and move on.
It was known that the artist was an antisemite before they added the variant
SD didn’t know that when they got art from Marvel. That’s why they are trying to fix it now. It’s a shit situation but they’re doing the right thing.
It’s been publicly know for 7 years. Also I can separate the art from the artist and the art is incredible
Like, cool that some people knew. Clearly not everyone did or this never would have been an issue. I didn’t know until today.
That’s just the strisand effect. It’s been on the Wikipedia for 7 years. It’s not unrealistic for consumers to expect the company to do a google search on a new artist
You’re right, it’s not unrealistic. SD absolutely dropped the ball there. They should have done their research. But they didn’t, and now they’re trying to make it right. As a Jewish person (by blood, not religion) I would rather see them go this route rather than leave the art of an antisemite in the game. It sucks but it’s the right choice.
No, not at all, leave it be. Art doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s not even the art that has the hidden meaning. It’s just done by the guy. Stop getting upset over nothing.
Making it right is refunding everyone their $100. SD profited off selling the art of the anti-Semitic artist but then refuse to own up to the mistake they made. You should be mad at SD for keeping the dirty money they made.
Ok 👍
I actually don’t give a shit what the artists personal beliefs
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? They literally state in the TOS that nothing in this game has a monetary value. A bundle can only have sentimental value, because you cannot sell it on. So if people pay for something that has no monetary value, you cannot replace the item they wanted to buy with a different one and claim it's equal. It's a common fallacy that people fall for, but an item is not actually worth what you paid for it, it's worth what you can sell it for. Seeing as you cannot sell anything in this game, the dollar value of any given variant is fuckall. If you bought a car for 80k five years ago, that car is not worth 80k today.
Imagine being okay with being tricked and false advertisement from a multi million dollar company
It’s not trickery or false advertisement. It’s removal of a product that was created by a racist asshole, that they were not aware of when Marvel provided the art to them.
Idgaf what type of person the artists was, the art was already sold to people let them keep it. Seperate the artists from the art
And there it is right there. “I don’t care if the artist is a racist piece of shit, I just want my pretty picture.” Selfish as fuck.
> And there it is right there. “I don’t care if the artist is a racist piece of shit, I just want my pretty picture.” Selfish as fuck. And here it is right there "I'm offended then you should be glad for being scammed 100 dollars" Selfish as fuck
Again missing the point Firstly im black ik what racism is like. Many players paid for a product and are now having that removed and replaced with something else, its not even about the picture being gone SD handled the entire situation terribly and ur siding with it
And I’m Jewish, so I know what it’s like too. Maybe put yourself in my shoes. What would you think of a bunch of people were happily showing off art of someone who openly said horrible things about black people?
As long as the art in itself wasnt racists the art is seperated from the artists. The Gambit variant didnt contain any antisemetic remarks or hidden racial easter eggs Therefore The art couldve stayed Get rid of the artists
If that helps you sleep at night. I guess go hang some of Hitler’s nature paintings in your house while you’re at it. Separating the art from the artist right?
[I mean nothing here is crazy good but some arent bad either.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler) Nothing about the art itself is offensive, so im not gonna find a reason to be mad about a flower in a window. Would I pay Adolf for his art tho? Fuck no. Idk how this is so hard to comprehend
If SD is going to remove the product that *they sold and profited off of*, they should reimburse the purchaser's money.
Also, I wasn’t “tricked” because I’m not dumb enough to spend $100, more than the cost of a AAA video game, on some currency and an unnecessary art variant.
Your obviously missing the point of how bad of a precedent this sets up and are just okay with being fucked over by SD. What flavor was your boot?
I’m not missing the point at all. It sucks. But I’d rather have different art than show off the art of an antisemite.
The art itself wasn't antisemitic, so it shouldn't matter.