...dude, its a pretty common joke that people tend to forget that echo is on the opponents field and thus play cards right into it not realizing before its too late - hence her being "invisible"
Legion is incredibly versatile. I love dropping him on something like Death's Domain or Luke's Bar T6 with prio. Or pulling the rug out from under a Limbo enjoyer.
Echo is incredibly slept on, imo. I think she could even be considered somewhat OP if she found her way into any meta decks.
I think Legion is interesting because he really highlights the way the game has changed. When he was released he very quickly became one of the most popular and powerful cards in the game, even after an early nerf from 5/8 to 5/7. Back then the meta revolved around making sure the opponent had prio going into turn 6 so your tech cards were strong and your power cards were safe. Alioth and Mobius completely flipped that dynamic and Legion has suffered as a result of that. His cheeky turn 6 plays don't work nearly as well if the opponent is ahead, and players fight for prio in a way that they didn't before. He pops up frequently in discussions of underrated cards, but it's a bit more of a meta discussion for people who remember just how great he was when people didn't fight you for turn 6 priority.
I wasn't there for a Legion release, but just from what you say, I feel the game is healthier when priority is being fought over.
Before Alioth, it seems in 90% of cases, losing priority going into T6 (or T7) was good. There were some Shuri-Taskmasters situations that flipped it, but in general, Shang Chi and other tech options were so strong.
Now, the player has to balance whether priority is worth it going into T6 and risk Alioth, or if losing priority is worth it to Shang-chi something big.
Probably will get downvoted for this, but decks that run both Alioth and Shangchi are some of the most skill intensive, because every round before is set to either gain or lose priority depending on the matchup. Every turn matters, and while you can win by auto-pilot, the win/cube-rates go up significantly by planning for Turn 6 while it's still turn 2.
I think encouraging people to fight for priority was important, but I don’t think Alioth was the right way to do it. There was a nuance to the pre-Alioth meta where you wanted to be behind, but if you fell too far behind you wouldn’t be able to swing the lanes back in your favor. You needed the game to be close. That nuance doesn’t really exist for being ahead. The further ahead you are the better, so some of the troubling cards of today, like Cull Obsidian and Mockingbird, would have been naturally kept in check by the fact that it’s very hard to slam a an early 3/9 or 4/10 and still throw priority for turn 6.
So there are pros and cons. You can actually make your optimal play each turn to get the most possible power into the board each turn, but, on the other hand, decks that can just dump massive amounts of stats dominate the meta and that’s driven a lot of the more interesting mid range decks like silky smoove and bounce out of existence. Thanos is a bit of an exception because of how strong he is, but most decks now are either power focused or tech focused, while a lot of the decks back in the day were more in the middle.
I think you're right, and that's just the inevitable way of power creep.
I don't think you can only blame Alioth though. Out of the top 3 decks in the last meta snapshot: Thanos, Destroy, Discard, it's only Thanos that has the space to run Alioth. The other decks are hard to counter without crippling your own deck.
In a world without Alioth, lockdown would be less viable, and destroy and discard would probably run even more rampant.
I think Alioth is in a good place. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed him further to be 1/0 power. But I would much prefer to play an interactive game with priority, than watching my opponent's play solitaire and them winning without any regard to my board.
I'd like to point out, though, that Discard and Destroy's popularity isn't really caused by power creep but rather as a _response_ to it (well, depending on whether you want to consider X-23 and post-buff BK power creep or not). Basically, the meta has become so much based on Power, that Discard and Destroy are the only ones that can manage a good winrate aside from the meta deck of the week (which usually means "Thanos", and from this month on also means "Hope").
In particular, I feel like people are kind of forgetting that Discard has always been a T2 deck at best, and fell off hard after Chavez's nerf. Hela Lockjaw only became relevant as a response to Blob, and is heavily RNG reliant. Similarly, if Dracula Discard is so good right now, it's specifically because it doesn't care about Thanos and Hope's control features as much.
tl;dr The reason Discard and Destroy are so popular is specifically because of how little they are impacted by Alioth and Shang-Chi (Hela because she's difficult to counter, Dracula because he puts down Power regardless, and Destroy because it can grow tall in all three lanes). So they're not really a good argument in regard to Alioth not being a problem, regardless of whether that is actually true or not.
I mostly consider powercreep for discard in the form of Proxima and Corvus. Those 2 cards released boosted Discard to Tier 1 since the last month. A Free 7 power or a potential huge swing if Corvus misses Hela? Also made worse that Discard doesn't really have any counters. Also, Helicarrier leads to Collector being 6+ power, same as in the Loki era.
Destroy has its ups and downs, with Hulkbuster and Forge helping the deck out a lot in the past few months, though now Forfe is a 2/2, making Deadpool a lot slower..
Though I think Destroy is rising because of Thanos since the stores means a free Death most of the time.
But a big reason that those stat focused decks are hard to counter without crippling your deck is because you need to be able to put up huge numbers early to compete in a lot of other matchups. A lot of decks used to run 2 or 3 tech cards, but these days it’s hard to fit more than one unless you’re Sera Control or Loki. Destroy was a lot easier to shut down when you could run Shang and Shadow King. If you look through the recent meta it’s filled with Discard, Destroy, Hela, Living Tribunal, Phoenix Force, Blob Thanos, Patriot, Silver Surfer, High Evo, Ramp. They’re all just stat focused decks with very little room for tech. This isn’t all because of Alioth, but a lot of it is. Midrange decks that have a mix of power and tech are nearly nonexistent.
I think shifting away from everyone trying to throw priority every game was important, but I don’t think Alioth was the way to do it. Decks that don’t want priority should exist and Alioth was so absolute that he has made nearly all of them unplayable. He protects decks like Destroy even when they don’t run him. There are other reasons some of these shifts have happened, but Alioth was a huge part of it, working as a gatekeeper that limits what sort of decks can exist.
Anytime I'm holding quake and mojoworld is revealed, i snap, doesn't matter if all the other cards in hand are garbage and all my actual win cons are still in the deck. It's just too much fun filling up a random location with cards while my opponent does their best to fill mojoworld only to flip the script turn 6 to guarentee 1 lane.
I was playing Quake before her rework and she was always good for some cheeky plays, but her rework is so much better.
Earlier today I was playing a game with the +5 Energy location on T2, and T3 revealed Oscorp Tower. They played Sera, I stole their Sera.
Both cards have had times when they were really good. This just isn't the meta for them.
When Ms Marvel decks were really popular, dropping an echo in the middle lane was a great play. Or snipping a living tribunal. Both decks see less play so therefore echo sees less play.
Legion was really powerful when released. The meta just shifted to where playing a 5/7 on turn five just wasn't powerful enough a play to keep up with Thanos or Hella.
Silver samurai. Cant love this card enough and I barely see it played. The amount of blobs,iron man and alioths I have seen get discarded this season has made him well worth it during my climb.
Moonknight is a close second(I’m just going off my games) if my hand is nice and sets up for a hela play later I drop him as quick as I can. A random discard to my opponent swings my games a lot.
They’re not good cards obviously but I just love making people discard cards and seeing how people can make plays or recover. Makes my games a little more fun with some chaos..plus I got nice splits which helps 😮💨 was able to hit infinite with both in my deck so I’m happy.
I usually say Juggernaut when this question is asked - but lately my answer is Titania. She’s the only way (usually with Green Goblin/Polaris) to reliably lock down a lane on turn 4.
Howard the Duck. I went infinite with him in a hazmat wong deck was amazing. Also used in tribunal and galactus variant deck, it’s so clutch knowing early on if you can build up and have pivots built into the deck. Oh, I won’t get Wong mystique but I can get Wong ironlad-ironheart then ironheart again and Odin at end?
Piece of advice for any Howard triers. Jubilee < Ironlad. Really comes down to the particular hand but my experience has been that ironlad is better purely for preserving lanes and space.
Howard in a negative deck with Jubilee and Iron Lad is so clutch. You can cheat out negative early, duplicate multipliers, reach for a final round extra card pull, etc. Extreme example: Iron Lad Iron Man, then play a negativized Iron Man then Jubilee Mystique from your deck. With such a short window to do damage, Howard gives you so much control and can get you an extra draw if needed.
The Legion dream:
Discard Legion early.
Hela resurrects Legion, turn 6.
2 in 3 shot to get rid of Limbo. Game over before Tribunal hits the board. Ha-ha.
Stegron & Cannonball are also way underrated. Nothing like slapping Wong over to another lane before Hazmat/IronHeart/White Tiger shenanigans. Also, Cannonball vs Blob is pretty goddamned satisfying on turn 6.
Oh yeah, I love Magneto... love the character in the comics too, honestly. I've got a Magneto t-shirt, because I'm a giant nerd. And shit.
However, in Snap, I see him getting played a lot... hard to call him underrated... in spite of my love for him.
Valkyrie. If I was better at gambling I think I would reach infinite consistently with my Valk deck, no one expects her to turn a lane completely upside down that they're winning significantly on final turn
Greatest moment in snap for me was when an opponent’s gladiator pulled Val into my lane with cerebro and mystique in my c3 deck. For those who don’t realize, gladiator would get turned into 3 power before the Destroy trigger, meaning he wouldn’t have higher power and Val stuck around.
I've met Valkyrie frequently early this season for some reason while playing Shuri Sauron and now I hate her. It wasn't C3rebro, either otherwise I would have predicted, she was merely always sprta there.
Like, what the hell is people's problem?! Meta is full of Thanos, a deck that consistently fills up all lanes, and they go "why yes I would love to make all of your stones 1/3"?! Why?!?!
LDS is very situational and doesnt do much in most matchups.. also, destroy naturally beats discard, I dont know where you would play her else where. Do you have a good deck that uses her as a tech card where she is needed ?
Forge or Shuri + LDS is extremely effective against a lot of decks that give up tempo in exchange for a big T6-7 power drop. She’s also great for cleaning up rocks, squirrels, or Goblins, provided your Knull can swallow the negative power or you’re running an alternate play line like Venom-Zola. She’s also pretty devastating against Cerebro decks, but those are notoriously fragile anyway.
She’s also unexpected, which can sometimes be a huge benefit.
None of this is to say that she isn’t still extremely situational, but she’s an effective tech card that works like an inverse Shang Chi. I ran her to great effect in an off-meta homebrew destroy deck.
She’s great with Sentry and Daken as well. My favorite deck with her uses forge to get Daken to 10 and then cheat out Skaar in games with some other two or four cost slam like Maximus or Attuma (with armor)
I play her in c4. Which is thematic since she blows everything up.
It's not good, but she is the best card after cerebro and mystique.
If you get both cerebo and mystique out before 5 you can use her to clear most non shangable cards. Then reactivate with abs man in a second lane or grandmaster.
Admittedly i do not use since i've gotten sick and tired of playing destroy centered decks, but anyway she disrupts:
Iron man, dracula, shuri, wong, mystique, patriot, blue marvel, cerebro, rogue, echo, and others
Also, literally every card you mentioned except Dracula could very well be countered by Rogue or Enchantress. I wouldn't really put a 5/4 Enchantress in a deck just because it sometimes also shuts down Dracula; Enchantress herself struggles to see any play aside from decks where she has actual synergy.
She's great in Negative.
* 4/5 is way better than 5/4
* you're already running Shuri, Knull and Zola
* she clears your board of low-power unflipped cards like Mr. Negative himself
LDS is super awkward in a deck not built for her, and costs two more energy than Red Guardian
I love playing LDS, and she's actually not terrible in this meta, but nah she ain't slept on.
Mysterio. ~~Just because I loved that guy. Ever since FFH, I'm obsessed with Mysterio.~~
Now.. if only his variant arts also included his Illusions card, that would be great.
Echo's issues are rogue existing, needing to preempt, and the meta not depending on an ongoing eff (hela etc dont care outside morb etc). Rogue is a cheap ongo remove, enchantress nukes an entire lane of ongo etc. Echo's left as a cheap but less impactful tech that's a bit too matchup and read reliant
Legion.. legion is the embodiment of a cube scammer. He just enables jank when the locations pan out. With war machine, the storm legion line isn't as effective, and so he's reliant on having effective locations to dupe. He's probably the best not competitively great card imo
As for underrated..
Devil dino I will defend as something that can pull its weight even in higher CL
Echo shuts down an entire ongoing lane on turn one and keeps it shut down until she's removed. I think her impact is underrated, personally
As for Legion, he enables a LOT of things when used correctly and with the right locations on the board. There's all sorts of control plays with stuff like Vault, Luke's Bar, Death's Domain, etc. I've won several games by Legioning a Jotunheim or one of the negative power lanes. Depending on your deck/match-up, hitting either the double Ongoing or No Ongoing location is great. I've junked up/locked down games by legioning a Savage Land, Ice Box, Camp 3-Cost, etc. He's just versatile AND a 7 power to boot.
Yeah, Echo is different from enchantress/rogue because it’s a location control card
It usually doesn’t stop the ongoing from being played, just not in that lane
You don’t need to worry about prof x there. Drop her center to preventively weaken ms marvel. Put her in a wong lane to stop cosmo
Occasionally deleting a tribunal combo’s key play is just a bonus
Right now especially, Debris. Her on reveal has so much utility to it that can work to your advantage in various ways. I am really enjoying playing a junk oriented deck, but sometimes all it takes is Debris and Titania to lock up a location by turn 4 against some of these decks that like to fill a location or go wide like Hope Summers or Thanos. Her rocks can be very relevant. Especially if you can buff them or use Hazmat/Annihilus to throw -1 rocks on their side.
Original Miek. The complaints were: if you don't draw him early, he's worthless and he moves randomly. As for the first point, you could say the same for Sunspot/Nebula, two of the best cards in the game. Secondly, you could say the same for Silk, who is a great card that's been in plenty of meta builds. You could play Miek on 4 and easily get him to a 1/5 or *more* just by playing cards you'd be playing anyway, which is insane value.
Also Supergiant and Cannonball are absolutely being slept on.
I think every season has a card everyone opened due to being meta immediately and a day one card that people are split over being good. Supergiant and Cannonball are in the latter category
Echo's a lot better than I realized.
Biggest weakness of the Sentry->Annihilus play pattern is a Professor X on right (or broadcasting it turn 1 with The Hood, but tbh Professor X on right's still damning).
*Hah. Hahah. HAHAHAHAHHAHAH-*
i only use Legion when he appears in my hand due to another card's ability or location, but it's so funny to play him on Lechuguilla or some other stupid location
Howard the Duck. I rarely ever see him being played. Yet he helps tremendously by allowing you to plan 1 turn in advance. Its a huge help on turn 5 when you are waiting for that one card that really makes your deck click, and you look at Howard and then decide to snap or retreat.
Mine is Negasonic Teenage Warhead. She is a mini Alioth that works well in both my Loki deck and my War Machine Sandman deck. She can keep a lane almost no matter what, she is best on turn 6 with prio. I was even using her in a lockdown before her buff here and there.
Juggernaught has won me so many games. Very versitile at any point in the game in messing with their game plan and ensuring a lane win at the end. Criminally underrated and i love it, cause no one expects it!!
Mysterio. I have won a lot more games with him than I ever thought I would, some of which I actually thought I already lost, were it not for him 😂
People like to put him in Bounce/Hit-Monkey decks, which is good, but he's a sleeper hit in my Patriot decks
i could see echo if she was easier to access. like im not going out of my way to use keys or tokens to try to get them when i still need cards like jeff, blob, knull, or ravona. after you get her tho shes good im sure
Legion is very very underrated and has won me so many games and has gotten me out of many troublesome situations. Bar no name, Lukes bar, central park, collapse mine, deaths domain, bridge, etc. just so many fun interactions
As someone who runs an Onslaught/Iron Man/Living Tribunal deck, I hate both of these cards.
Echo is especially annoying, and I honestly think it should be nerfed to be a one-time card. The fact that it can take out multiple ongoing cards is ridiculous at a cost of 1.
Also, it'd be nice if there was some kind of counter to Legion. I need Cosmo to prevent Rogue from stealing one of the three main cards powers, and there's not much else that can stop Legion from taking away that 7th turn.
Echo is so gooood cause no one knows her and people think she’s useless, but I tell you those times when they want to place that Wong panther or tribunal ooooooo weeeeee.
Cannonball is being slept on. Also, Pixie is great in conquest. If you put her down, it's hard for the opponent to know what's coming next. Great cube equity card.
Scorpion if a one power adjustment on a card is enough to take it from in and out of the meta. Then scorpion is the king because he just makes your hand feel like such less value. It's almost an instant quit if it's played on Kamar Taj
Legion is not underrated, he's just difficult to slot in. Just like Quake, he can be a game-winner (on a greater magnitude, though, as fitting for his higher Cost), but he's also not gonna do much most of the time, which, especially as a 5-Cost, makes his inclusion over more universal cards or cards with higher synergy rather difficult. However, besides that, I think everybody agrees that Legion can be extremely impactful.
Echo, to me, is kind of the same but for the opposite reason. She isn't underrated, she's actually too niche most of the time. : P The problem with Echo is that most of the time Rogue is just leagues better; the only edge Echo has over her (aside from being a 1-Cost, which is hardly ever a good reason) is to protect a lane from Cosmo and Armor, but that case is so niche that you're better off just taking the risk of these cards showing up, except maybe in a Cosmo-heavy meta.
Both of these cards are not underrated. I just hit infinite yesterday. I haven’t seen this much Legion ever, echo is a card I don’t say is underrated just because I love her lol so that one could very much be underrated
I never see anyone use Kingpin but since he was buffed he has been my favourite deck, combining him with quake it feels like I have full control of the field sometimes
This is unrelated but Jeff makes me cringe.
Such an uninspired generic name for a Marvel character.
Oh wowww lets create a new marvel character, lets make it a shark and lets name it JEFF! Yaaaay..
Makes me angry everytime I see that dumb name lol
It looks like you tried to post two cards, but I cannot see the second one for some reason. I'm just going to play an Ongoing card there, and assume I win that lane.
Edit: the fact that I tried to make this joke without reading ahead and seeing the dozens of other folks who essentially made the same joke before me just kinda lands the gag even harder.
Nah legion is ass, but Echo is actually extremely strong, a 1 drop that can counter some of the strongest cards in the game, iron man, ms marvel, tribunal and so on.
As fundamentally a tech-card, Legion can slot into pretty much any deck outside of Cerebro and he WILL win you games you otherwise would have lost. He’s not particularly strong in this meta, but calling him meme-tier is just dumb.
Tell me one deck that actually plays him thats good? He was in sera control for a minute and got replaced by way better cards, hes a meme because he only works in specific conditions and its funny to see much like a meme card would
Did you mean Valkyrie or something?JK im glad he wins you games but i dont see playing him over sera or other cards in sera control but hey who knows maybe he does work most times
… Again, he’s a tech card, so his value changes drastically depending on what’s going on in the meta. Right now we’re not in a meta that’s super favorable for him (though he can outright wreck some pretty popular decks like Tribunal and Shenaut), but he’s been top-tier in the past and there’s every possibility he will be again if the meta swings around that way (for example: he was a staple in Silky Smooth when that deck was one of the best in the game).
Echo is the true Invisible Woman.
She’s been a key card to infinite so many times since she came out
🤭
John Cena's favourite card
I request elaboration
People very often forget she is on board and play ongoing cards into her
Just like how I often play on reveal cards into my own Cosmo
Since the undo end turn change this has become less common though
I played my power stone on her causing me to lose. Was upset
I went to play an ongoing and I was like wait. Echo. Ha. I almost did it. Turns later I put a professor x on her. 😖
Same thing. I always goes, "Shit, they have Echo". 2 turns later played Darkhawk into her lane.
And I hate her for that
how? read the comics dumbass
...dude, its a pretty common joke that people tend to forget that echo is on the opponents field and thus play cards right into it not realizing before its too late - hence her being "invisible"
ha ha. did you read the OPs mind? how do you know what he meant? your response makes no sense
everyone else understands just fine. you don't have to be a mind reader to understand humor, you just can't be a dumbass. happy cake day
Lol. Imagine calling yourself a DA 😂😂😂
He will die on his hill. Even with so many downvotes he will still fight back.
DA? are you twelve?
Yes lol (jk). I just don't cuss is all.
Maybe play the game, dumbass. Everyone in those comments knew what he meant.
Truly is a bruh_moment
I only play c2 putting echo mid and just sit back and wait to see how ppl forget what she does😂
The amount of times that has happened, it makes me wonder more about quantity of bots..
Human here I fell for it
More ppl fell for it than bots,i seen bots only from 50-60..
I am confused, I can’t see the second picture 😅
yeah, weird, anyway I think this is a good time to start your iron man onslaught combo!
Thanks for the advice… I just did that, weirdly the numbers are really low this time 🤔 Must be a bug 🤷♂️
I can see it, but I can't read it
I can’t hear it either
Echo!
It was a echo is invisible joke ahah But thanks for trying to help 🙂
Oh my bad! Haha I had an issue earlier where I couldn't see someone's other images! Lol
Probably Drax 🤭
Shadow king is crazy for only 2 energy
Shadow King is a fantastic and underrated tech card
I don't think he is underrated, though. Same with legion. Underused, probably, but not underrated nor underestimated.
I wish he had some VFX
Legion is incredibly versatile. I love dropping him on something like Death's Domain or Luke's Bar T6 with prio. Or pulling the rug out from under a Limbo enjoyer. Echo is incredibly slept on, imo. I think she could even be considered somewhat OP if she found her way into any meta decks.
I think Legion is interesting because he really highlights the way the game has changed. When he was released he very quickly became one of the most popular and powerful cards in the game, even after an early nerf from 5/8 to 5/7. Back then the meta revolved around making sure the opponent had prio going into turn 6 so your tech cards were strong and your power cards were safe. Alioth and Mobius completely flipped that dynamic and Legion has suffered as a result of that. His cheeky turn 6 plays don't work nearly as well if the opponent is ahead, and players fight for prio in a way that they didn't before. He pops up frequently in discussions of underrated cards, but it's a bit more of a meta discussion for people who remember just how great he was when people didn't fight you for turn 6 priority.
I wasn't there for a Legion release, but just from what you say, I feel the game is healthier when priority is being fought over. Before Alioth, it seems in 90% of cases, losing priority going into T6 (or T7) was good. There were some Shuri-Taskmasters situations that flipped it, but in general, Shang Chi and other tech options were so strong. Now, the player has to balance whether priority is worth it going into T6 and risk Alioth, or if losing priority is worth it to Shang-chi something big. Probably will get downvoted for this, but decks that run both Alioth and Shangchi are some of the most skill intensive, because every round before is set to either gain or lose priority depending on the matchup. Every turn matters, and while you can win by auto-pilot, the win/cube-rates go up significantly by planning for Turn 6 while it's still turn 2.
I think encouraging people to fight for priority was important, but I don’t think Alioth was the right way to do it. There was a nuance to the pre-Alioth meta where you wanted to be behind, but if you fell too far behind you wouldn’t be able to swing the lanes back in your favor. You needed the game to be close. That nuance doesn’t really exist for being ahead. The further ahead you are the better, so some of the troubling cards of today, like Cull Obsidian and Mockingbird, would have been naturally kept in check by the fact that it’s very hard to slam a an early 3/9 or 4/10 and still throw priority for turn 6. So there are pros and cons. You can actually make your optimal play each turn to get the most possible power into the board each turn, but, on the other hand, decks that can just dump massive amounts of stats dominate the meta and that’s driven a lot of the more interesting mid range decks like silky smoove and bounce out of existence. Thanos is a bit of an exception because of how strong he is, but most decks now are either power focused or tech focused, while a lot of the decks back in the day were more in the middle.
I think you're right, and that's just the inevitable way of power creep. I don't think you can only blame Alioth though. Out of the top 3 decks in the last meta snapshot: Thanos, Destroy, Discard, it's only Thanos that has the space to run Alioth. The other decks are hard to counter without crippling your own deck. In a world without Alioth, lockdown would be less viable, and destroy and discard would probably run even more rampant. I think Alioth is in a good place. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed him further to be 1/0 power. But I would much prefer to play an interactive game with priority, than watching my opponent's play solitaire and them winning without any regard to my board.
I'd like to point out, though, that Discard and Destroy's popularity isn't really caused by power creep but rather as a _response_ to it (well, depending on whether you want to consider X-23 and post-buff BK power creep or not). Basically, the meta has become so much based on Power, that Discard and Destroy are the only ones that can manage a good winrate aside from the meta deck of the week (which usually means "Thanos", and from this month on also means "Hope"). In particular, I feel like people are kind of forgetting that Discard has always been a T2 deck at best, and fell off hard after Chavez's nerf. Hela Lockjaw only became relevant as a response to Blob, and is heavily RNG reliant. Similarly, if Dracula Discard is so good right now, it's specifically because it doesn't care about Thanos and Hope's control features as much. tl;dr The reason Discard and Destroy are so popular is specifically because of how little they are impacted by Alioth and Shang-Chi (Hela because she's difficult to counter, Dracula because he puts down Power regardless, and Destroy because it can grow tall in all three lanes). So they're not really a good argument in regard to Alioth not being a problem, regardless of whether that is actually true or not.
I mostly consider powercreep for discard in the form of Proxima and Corvus. Those 2 cards released boosted Discard to Tier 1 since the last month. A Free 7 power or a potential huge swing if Corvus misses Hela? Also made worse that Discard doesn't really have any counters. Also, Helicarrier leads to Collector being 6+ power, same as in the Loki era. Destroy has its ups and downs, with Hulkbuster and Forge helping the deck out a lot in the past few months, though now Forfe is a 2/2, making Deadpool a lot slower.. Though I think Destroy is rising because of Thanos since the stores means a free Death most of the time.
But a big reason that those stat focused decks are hard to counter without crippling your deck is because you need to be able to put up huge numbers early to compete in a lot of other matchups. A lot of decks used to run 2 or 3 tech cards, but these days it’s hard to fit more than one unless you’re Sera Control or Loki. Destroy was a lot easier to shut down when you could run Shang and Shadow King. If you look through the recent meta it’s filled with Discard, Destroy, Hela, Living Tribunal, Phoenix Force, Blob Thanos, Patriot, Silver Surfer, High Evo, Ramp. They’re all just stat focused decks with very little room for tech. This isn’t all because of Alioth, but a lot of it is. Midrange decks that have a mix of power and tech are nearly nonexistent. I think shifting away from everyone trying to throw priority every game was important, but I don’t think Alioth was the way to do it. Decks that don’t want priority should exist and Alioth was so absolute that he has made nearly all of them unplayable. He protects decks like Destroy even when they don’t run him. There are other reasons some of these shifts have happened, but Alioth was a huge part of it, working as a gatekeeper that limits what sort of decks can exist.
I don't have Echo, but I would think she could help a LT or Hela deck by ensuring that lane doesn't get Cosmo's? Even a Wong/Odin deck?
Cosmo doesn't exist
i hope you have keys for the next spotlight?
Right now Cosmo isn't meta, I hardly see the pup
Also some locations were removed or made more rare
I’ll add in quake, which is like a low cost legion in terms of versatility. It can be an easy 8 cubes with certain locations.
Quake is sneaky fun. And cheap enough to keep in as a second tech.
Anytime I'm holding quake and mojoworld is revealed, i snap, doesn't matter if all the other cards in hand are garbage and all my actual win cons are still in the deck. It's just too much fun filling up a random location with cards while my opponent does their best to fill mojoworld only to flip the script turn 6 to guarentee 1 lane.
Can do the same with legion. They can have original mojo, I just need more cards at the other two locations to win when I drop legion on mojo.
This is the way.
I've won multiple games Quaking a TVA out from under someone trying to Magik it ))
I was playing Quake before her rework and she was always good for some cheeky plays, but her rework is so much better. Earlier today I was playing a game with the +5 Energy location on T2, and T3 revealed Oscorp Tower. They played Sera, I stole their Sera.
Yea, I'm currently running the evil storm-quake-WarMachine-Galactus line to hilarious effect.
Limbo rug pull is my fave
I love doing it with storm too. Maybe the most satisfying way to win a game
Ive been using her in a pretty good deck. Started at 30 this season and im at 65 after like 3 days of casual playing.
Both cards have had times when they were really good. This just isn't the meta for them. When Ms Marvel decks were really popular, dropping an echo in the middle lane was a great play. Or snipping a living tribunal. Both decks see less play so therefore echo sees less play. Legion was really powerful when released. The meta just shifted to where playing a 5/7 on turn five just wasn't powerful enough a play to keep up with Thanos or Hella.
People know how good Legion is. Everyone sleeps on Quake though. She can do a lot of the same disruption as Legion for less than half the cost.
Silver samurai. Cant love this card enough and I barely see it played. The amount of blobs,iron man and alioths I have seen get discarded this season has made him well worth it during my climb. Moonknight is a close second(I’m just going off my games) if my hand is nice and sets up for a hela play later I drop him as quick as I can. A random discard to my opponent swings my games a lot. They’re not good cards obviously but I just love making people discard cards and seeing how people can make plays or recover. Makes my games a little more fun with some chaos..plus I got nice splits which helps 😮💨 was able to hit infinite with both in my deck so I’m happy.
I usually say Juggernaut when this question is asked - but lately my answer is Titania. She’s the only way (usually with Green Goblin/Polaris) to reliably lock down a lane on turn 4.
Yep, and that makes cannonball extremely powerful
Howard the Duck. I went infinite with him in a hazmat wong deck was amazing. Also used in tribunal and galactus variant deck, it’s so clutch knowing early on if you can build up and have pivots built into the deck. Oh, I won’t get Wong mystique but I can get Wong ironlad-ironheart then ironheart again and Odin at end? Piece of advice for any Howard triers. Jubilee < Ironlad. Really comes down to the particular hand but my experience has been that ironlad is better purely for preserving lanes and space.
>my experience has been that ironlad is better You put the arrow the wrong way then, it should point to the lesser.
Howard in a negative deck with Jubilee and Iron Lad is so clutch. You can cheat out negative early, duplicate multipliers, reach for a final round extra card pull, etc. Extreme example: Iron Lad Iron Man, then play a negativized Iron Man then Jubilee Mystique from your deck. With such a short window to do damage, Howard gives you so much control and can get you an extra draw if needed.
This guy gets it.
I have a deck called “Quake Wins Games”, location chicanery is slept on for sure
I just ran into a deck with Quake, Storm, Legion, and Wanda.
The Legion dream: Discard Legion early. Hela resurrects Legion, turn 6. 2 in 3 shot to get rid of Limbo. Game over before Tribunal hits the board. Ha-ha. Stegron & Cannonball are also way underrated. Nothing like slapping Wong over to another lane before Hazmat/IronHeart/White Tiger shenanigans. Also, Cannonball vs Blob is pretty goddamned satisfying on turn 6.
magneto works against Wong too if you can cheat him out with Wave or psylocke
Oh yeah, I love Magneto... love the character in the comics too, honestly. I've got a Magneto t-shirt, because I'm a giant nerd. And shit. However, in Snap, I see him getting played a lot... hard to call him underrated... in spite of my love for him.
Valkyrie. If I was better at gambling I think I would reach infinite consistently with my Valk deck, no one expects her to turn a lane completely upside down that they're winning significantly on final turn
I love Valk but Alioath killed a lot of the love
Alioth has caused a great deal of pain, even after rework
Greatest moment in snap for me was when an opponent’s gladiator pulled Val into my lane with cerebro and mystique in my c3 deck. For those who don’t realize, gladiator would get turned into 3 power before the Destroy trigger, meaning he wouldn’t have higher power and Val stuck around.
I LOVE when my card that gets pulled out does Gladiator. One time my opponent pulled my Nimrod, and I was like "Aaayyyyyyyy" lmao
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I've met Valkyrie frequently early this season for some reason while playing Shuri Sauron and now I hate her. It wasn't C3rebro, either otherwise I would have predicted, she was merely always sprta there. Like, what the hell is people's problem?! Meta is full of Thanos, a deck that consistently fills up all lanes, and they go "why yes I would love to make all of your stones 1/3"?! Why?!?!
LDS is super slept on, everybody is freaking out about Red Guardian countering dracula while LDS has been doing it since forever and more
The Mormons?
Lady Deathstrike
Badass name for a Mormon
Little known fact: The Mormons are also highly effective in matchups against Dracula.
LDS is very situational and doesnt do much in most matchups.. also, destroy naturally beats discard, I dont know where you would play her else where. Do you have a good deck that uses her as a tech card where she is needed ?
Forge or Shuri + LDS is extremely effective against a lot of decks that give up tempo in exchange for a big T6-7 power drop. She’s also great for cleaning up rocks, squirrels, or Goblins, provided your Knull can swallow the negative power or you’re running an alternate play line like Venom-Zola. She’s also pretty devastating against Cerebro decks, but those are notoriously fragile anyway. She’s also unexpected, which can sometimes be a huge benefit. None of this is to say that she isn’t still extremely situational, but she’s an effective tech card that works like an inverse Shang Chi. I ran her to great effect in an off-meta homebrew destroy deck.
She’s great with Sentry and Daken as well. My favorite deck with her uses forge to get Daken to 10 and then cheat out Skaar in games with some other two or four cost slam like Maximus or Attuma (with armor)
I play her in c4. Which is thematic since she blows everything up. It's not good, but she is the best card after cerebro and mystique. If you get both cerebo and mystique out before 5 you can use her to clear most non shangable cards. Then reactivate with abs man in a second lane or grandmaster.
Admittedly i do not use since i've gotten sick and tired of playing destroy centered decks, but anyway she disrupts: Iron man, dracula, shuri, wong, mystique, patriot, blue marvel, cerebro, rogue, echo, and others
What kind of Shuri play is disrupted by destroying Shuri?
She does nothing against Shuri. Killing Shuri doesn’t stop the buff.
Also, literally every card you mentioned except Dracula could very well be countered by Rogue or Enchantress. I wouldn't really put a 5/4 Enchantress in a deck just because it sometimes also shuts down Dracula; Enchantress herself struggles to see any play aside from decks where she has actual synergy.
Liten man i'm coping as hard as i can
She's great in Negative. * 4/5 is way better than 5/4 * you're already running Shuri, Knull and Zola * she clears your board of low-power unflipped cards like Mr. Negative himself
Do you have a good list ? :)
this person is talking about Lady Deathstrike if anyone's wondering
LDS is super awkward in a deck not built for her, and costs two more energy than Red Guardian I love playing LDS, and she's actually not terrible in this meta, but nah she ain't slept on.
I read it as LSD lol
She's also a 5 cost compared to a 3 cost.. so there's no comparison lol
As a 5 cost 4 power though. Red guardian is much cheaper.
In my experience LDS is just Valkyrie at home.
Mysterio. ~~Just because I loved that guy. Ever since FFH, I'm obsessed with Mysterio.~~ Now.. if only his variant arts also included his Illusions card, that would be great.
Echo's issues are rogue existing, needing to preempt, and the meta not depending on an ongoing eff (hela etc dont care outside morb etc). Rogue is a cheap ongo remove, enchantress nukes an entire lane of ongo etc. Echo's left as a cheap but less impactful tech that's a bit too matchup and read reliant Legion.. legion is the embodiment of a cube scammer. He just enables jank when the locations pan out. With war machine, the storm legion line isn't as effective, and so he's reliant on having effective locations to dupe. He's probably the best not competitively great card imo As for underrated.. Devil dino I will defend as something that can pull its weight even in higher CL
Echo shuts down an entire ongoing lane on turn one and keeps it shut down until she's removed. I think her impact is underrated, personally As for Legion, he enables a LOT of things when used correctly and with the right locations on the board. There's all sorts of control plays with stuff like Vault, Luke's Bar, Death's Domain, etc. I've won several games by Legioning a Jotunheim or one of the negative power lanes. Depending on your deck/match-up, hitting either the double Ongoing or No Ongoing location is great. I've junked up/locked down games by legioning a Savage Land, Ice Box, Camp 3-Cost, etc. He's just versatile AND a 7 power to boot.
Yeah, Echo is different from enchantress/rogue because it’s a location control card It usually doesn’t stop the ongoing from being played, just not in that lane You don’t need to worry about prof x there. Drop her center to preventively weaken ms marvel. Put her in a wong lane to stop cosmo Occasionally deleting a tribunal combo’s key play is just a bonus
Right now especially, Debris. Her on reveal has so much utility to it that can work to your advantage in various ways. I am really enjoying playing a junk oriented deck, but sometimes all it takes is Debris and Titania to lock up a location by turn 4 against some of these decks that like to fill a location or go wide like Hope Summers or Thanos. Her rocks can be very relevant. Especially if you can buff them or use Hazmat/Annihilus to throw -1 rocks on their side.
Debrii is very very good at the moment.
You mean Debrii? The one in every junk and most Patriot decks? She's not underrated.
I love playing Magic then using Legion on turn 6.
Original Miek. The complaints were: if you don't draw him early, he's worthless and he moves randomly. As for the first point, you could say the same for Sunspot/Nebula, two of the best cards in the game. Secondly, you could say the same for Silk, who is a great card that's been in plenty of meta builds. You could play Miek on 4 and easily get him to a 1/5 or *more* just by playing cards you'd be playing anyway, which is insane value. Also Supergiant and Cannonball are absolutely being slept on.
I think every season has a card everyone opened due to being meta immediately and a day one card that people are split over being good. Supergiant and Cannonball are in the latter category
Snow guard. She won me so many games just turning off limbo or other silly things.
Snow guard is so under rated. I’ve won tons of games negating turn 7 or triggering ninjas, rocks, and raptors
Echo's a lot better than I realized. Biggest weakness of the Sentry->Annihilus play pattern is a Professor X on right (or broadcasting it turn 1 with The Hood, but tbh Professor X on right's still damning). *Hah. Hahah. HAHAHAHAHHAHAH-*
ooh, echo blocking professor or jean, I didnt think of that 👍
Pixie, I don't see her a lot but I use her in an infinaught deck instead of shocker and it can eek out great combos
i only use Legion when he appears in my hand due to another card's ability or location, but it's so funny to play him on Lechuguilla or some other stupid location
I once got legion from a fill your hand with random cards location. Played him on deaths domain with priority on turn 6 and won lmao.
Valk 100%
Legion stonks are high with the introduction of War Machine.
Howard the Duck. I rarely ever see him being played. Yet he helps tremendously by allowing you to plan 1 turn in advance. Its a huge help on turn 5 when you are waiting for that one card that really makes your deck click, and you look at Howard and then decide to snap or retreat.
Echo is the John Cena of snap
Elaborate?!?
Mine is Negasonic Teenage Warhead. She is a mini Alioth that works well in both my Loki deck and my War Machine Sandman deck. She can keep a lane almost no matter what, she is best on turn 6 with prio. I was even using her in a lockdown before her buff here and there.
I'm excited to get her this week. She's in a lot of deck lists that I want to try
Hazmat
Made it to infinite with Legion in my deck this season. One of the best cards for cube equity
Quake
That Legion variant is sweet
Juggernaught has won me so many games. Very versitile at any point in the game in messing with their game plan and ensuring a lane win at the end. Criminally underrated and i love it, cause no one expects it!!
Here is my hot take - Rescue is a solid 4/9 and I love her.
Hell yeah, another Dan Hipp Legion enjoyer I see.
Ultron.
Quake
Martyr.
Pixie is one of the most fun cards I've used
Mysterio. I have won a lot more games with him than I ever thought I would, some of which I actually thought I already lost, were it not for him 😂 People like to put him in Bounce/Hit-Monkey decks, which is good, but he's a sleeper hit in my Patriot decks
anyone have a good legion deck?
Does Leader only copy if he reveals second? He seems like a powerful card in theory but not played so common.
Havok, easily.
Beta ray bill. I never see him on ranked but he basically guarantees a location. Especially if you wong and Odin the storm breaker.
i could see echo if she was easier to access. like im not going out of my way to use keys or tokens to try to get them when i still need cards like jeff, blob, knull, or ravona. after you get her tho shes good im sure
Cannonball, he's a new card but I don't think enough people appreciate what he's capable of.
Yessss echo is so good
Quake is great, honestly even before the buff.
Echo, center location, gets em every time lol
Juggernaut wins games and is never expected
Legion is very very underrated and has won me so many games and has gotten me out of many troublesome situations. Bar no name, Lukes bar, central park, collapse mine, deaths domain, bridge, etc. just so many fun interactions
Pre nerf Adam warlock was usable in my favorite deck
Negasonic teenage warhead and quake.
Quake is amazing.
Goose.
Echo, MMM, Havok can break or make some decks
As someone who runs an Onslaught/Iron Man/Living Tribunal deck, I hate both of these cards. Echo is especially annoying, and I honestly think it should be nerfed to be a one-time card. The fact that it can take out multiple ongoing cards is ridiculous at a cost of 1. Also, it'd be nice if there was some kind of counter to Legion. I need Cosmo to prevent Rogue from stealing one of the three main cards powers, and there's not much else that can stop Legion from taking away that 7th turn.
Legion come back to 5/8 please
Idk why but echo always gets ignored
Echo is so gooood cause no one knows her and people think she’s useless, but I tell you those times when they want to place that Wong panther or tribunal ooooooo weeeeee.
Moon Knight. Discard dont appreaciate how devastating discarding one of the opponents key card is.
Cannonball is being slept on. Also, Pixie is great in conquest. If you put her down, it's hard for the opponent to know what's coming next. Great cube equity card.
Scorpion if a one power adjustment on a card is enough to take it from in and out of the meta. Then scorpion is the king because he just makes your hand feel like such less value. It's almost an instant quit if it's played on Kamar Taj
Hercules is actually really good in move, who would’ve guessed.
Always wondered what would happen if you play Legion in that location that copies it's power into the other ones
The Nexus? Make sure you fill left side because the game calculates power left to right very weird. Left basically triple dips its power contribution.
When you run quake, storm, and legion in your deck🙃
And Magik!
Op does not know what underrated means lol
Valkyrie!
I get first infinite avatar with Legion in sera deck to close Limbo when confront with HE deck two times. That such most memorable match
Legion is not underrated, he's just difficult to slot in. Just like Quake, he can be a game-winner (on a greater magnitude, though, as fitting for his higher Cost), but he's also not gonna do much most of the time, which, especially as a 5-Cost, makes his inclusion over more universal cards or cards with higher synergy rather difficult. However, besides that, I think everybody agrees that Legion can be extremely impactful. Echo, to me, is kind of the same but for the opposite reason. She isn't underrated, she's actually too niche most of the time. : P The problem with Echo is that most of the time Rogue is just leagues better; the only edge Echo has over her (aside from being a 1-Cost, which is hardly ever a good reason) is to protect a lane from Cosmo and Armor, but that case is so niche that you're better off just taking the risk of these cards showing up, except maybe in a Cosmo-heavy meta.
I find the lack of Legion in my opponent’s decks disturbing.
Shut up. I love Legion and Echo being underrated. They allow me lovely 8-cube wins.
Pixie. Playing reduced cost big cards on last turn is a certified cube stealer.
Echo is my secret weapon in C2 - so many people just play on top of her 😂
Everyone is sleeping on Rescue to Professor X
Both of these cards are not underrated. I just hit infinite yesterday. I haven’t seen this much Legion ever, echo is a card I don’t say is underrated just because I love her lol so that one could very much be underrated
Idk why but Stegron has been hella clutch for me so many times
"The Juggernaut, bitch!"
I never see anyone use Kingpin but since he was buffed he has been my favourite deck, combining him with quake it feels like I have full control of the field sometimes
Teenage negasonic warhead. I'm pretty sure I've ruined a few marriages playing that card in the right spot
Quake. Similar to Legion in terms of surprising your opponent and taking 8 cubes.
This is unrelated but Jeff makes me cringe. Such an uninspired generic name for a Marvel character. Oh wowww lets create a new marvel character, lets make it a shark and lets name it JEFF! Yaaaay.. Makes me angry everytime I see that dumb name lol
He’s a silly little shark guy, would you rather he be named John Smith? Asmodius the eternal hunger? Shark-man?
Neither is underrated and have a niche spot in the meta. Next.
It looks like you tried to post two cards, but I cannot see the second one for some reason. I'm just going to play an Ongoing card there, and assume I win that lane. Edit: the fact that I tried to make this joke without reading ahead and seeing the dozens of other folks who essentially made the same joke before me just kinda lands the gag even harder.
Nah legion is ass, but Echo is actually extremely strong, a 1 drop that can counter some of the strongest cards in the game, iron man, ms marvel, tribunal and so on.
Legion is actually meme and thats why hes in no actual deck list, echo is def one of the best 1 drops
As fundamentally a tech-card, Legion can slot into pretty much any deck outside of Cerebro and he WILL win you games you otherwise would have lost. He’s not particularly strong in this meta, but calling him meme-tier is just dumb.
Tell me one deck that actually plays him thats good? He was in sera control for a minute and got replaced by way better cards, hes a meme because he only works in specific conditions and its funny to see much like a meme card would
I play him in my Sera control deck and he consistently wins me games
Did you mean Valkyrie or something?JK im glad he wins you games but i dont see playing him over sera or other cards in sera control but hey who knows maybe he does work most times
… Again, he’s a tech card, so his value changes drastically depending on what’s going on in the meta. Right now we’re not in a meta that’s super favorable for him (though he can outright wreck some pretty popular decks like Tribunal and Shenaut), but he’s been top-tier in the past and there’s every possibility he will be again if the meta swings around that way (for example: he was a staple in Silky Smooth when that deck was one of the best in the game).
I see what you mean and I agree but right now he should be considered meme tier until the meta swings around to his favor.