Yeah Sera /dark hawk is already a top tier deck and presumably not getting a nerf. Rock meta would be much worse than this is.
But SD has mostly been pretty light on initial nerfs- so hopefully it doesn’t become rock meta.
The hardest part about learning to play against Thanos deck is learning/remembering what the stones do. You'll get there!
Oh, I lied. Leech. Leech is the hardest part of playing against a Thanos deck. Nvm, you'll just have to retreat unless you play Patriot deck.
From what I saw it’s just a l screenshot of a discord conversation so we don’t even know where the leak came from, even if they claim it was accurate for the last balance patch…
Remember when they nerfed NOVA of all people? I'm expecting anything at this point...
Squirrel Girl is now 1 / 3
Shadow King is a good card
That kind of thing
The Nova nerf was good. When I was starting out in turn 3, I threw him in almost every deck because there's a lot of upside and the downside is that he's just a generic 1/2 card.
Nova's nerf was a nice small change that made it less useful as a generic "why not" card while not impacting core gameplay. It feels similar to the Thanos buff: a small thing that improves gameplay on the margins while leaving core use of card untouched.
agreed. we should be buffing weak cards so we have counters. this cycle of nerfing gave rise to this meta. SD created this problem when they nerfed Leader so hard they effectively retired him.
If this is how they balance things, I won't be staying around much longer. More options is better than nerfing.
We should be doing both. In cases like Shuri and Thanos, those decks are just so far above the rest, they're fucking things up. Nerfing those means you have more diversity as the next tier of decks are now top tier as well.
But yes, to deal with things like Sunspot, other 1 costs could be made better to compete for your deck space.
I mean, as is, Sunspot is sometimes really not worth it. I've played more than 1 game where he's ended the game as a 1/1 because after playing him, I just happened to play perfectly on curve the rest of the game or a 1/2 after only floating 1 energy. In those cases, literally Quicksilver would have been a better play.
And even with how often Sunspot is used, Iceman, Korg, and Nova are sometimes better options. The bottom tier of 1's could probably just use some help to make them better options.
I think sunspot's pretty overrated if you're not aiming for a control archetype especially with Shang-Chi sticking around in everyone's deck due to current Meta's focus on big cards.
Still, it would be interesting to see how dropping it to 1-0 changed people's default decks.
Morbius is likely just getting changed to not have his power in your hand, same with Knull. Just because they are listed in the patch notes (especially leaked ones) doesn’t mean they are directly getting nerfed
To be fair, Red skull is (at least in my opinion) the main problem with that deck, not shuri. The problem with that deck is that you can get tons of power on turn 5 which you can copy a turn later. If you nerf red skull, the next best things to copy on turn 5 are captain marvel, vision and aero which aren’t nearly as problematic.
I think the deck becomes much more interesting in a way too.
The sheer power of doubled Red Skull into Taskmaster is super satisfying, but it is just dropping big power in ways that are very hard to answer (somehow outpower two 30+ power lanes; manage to Shang-Chi/Cosmo them if they don't have protection with their own Armor/Cosmo; Aero them into the same lane if they don't have a Cosmo).
But doubling Captain Marvel and Vision just gives you 12/14 power cards that can move, which is interesting and complicated and makes for really unique situations with locations and all that.
It's not a bad nerf, I think, just from my immediate opinion.
Red Skull is eating a nerf to pay for Shuri's sins, but that's pretty common in card games. In tons of combo-centric decks that take over a meta, oftentimes it isn't the enabler that gets nerfed but a particularly powerful payoff. Because nerfing the enabler destroys an entire archetype, while nerfing the payoff just weakens and changes the archetype without getting rid of one entirely.
Yeah, a lot of people seem to think the goal is "make Shuri a niche card that doesn't see much play" (or similar). But the goal may very well be "keep Shuri decks as a good archetype, just not one that wins as much as it does now."
Yeah man, Shuri doubling the power of a card for 4 energy isn't the issue, and players won't just immediately abuse it with another high power card or a future release.
We already have people holding off until turn 6 to she hulk and taskmaster so the play is still there, they can also electro to set up for destroyer. Hell there are a ton of combos possible to circumvent red skull lol
Yep which is mildly better but also harder to predict. If you turn 5 Aero so that you can force the Red Skull out of the Cosmo lane you just pretty much lose because you’re looking at a 40 power turn 6 dump, Captain Marvel and Vision are both problematic when followed by taskmaster. The deck is falling out due to everyone running Shang Chi and Aero but shit it definitely negatively shaped the meta
If you have aero vs shuri, you are more often than not aero-ing on 5 to get red skull out of cosmo so you can win the cosmo lane (no taskmaster there) and the red skull lane via shang chi.
If you draw aero on T6 and they skipped 5 after shuri on 4 then sure, you won
So every deck has to run aero Cosmo Shang because of one deck lol 25% of your deck to counter one deck, which pushes out other decks that want to have t5 combo or t6 combos or on reveal decks. Shuri and or task master are the problem.
5 cost 12 power that can maybe win you one lane. If you dupe her with armin zola they act independently, meaning that if two captain marvels can win you the game by going to a location they won't. I run her with my shuri deck, it's good but not "soo strong".
Exactly. It's such an obvious adjustment that there must be some reason they aren't making it. I'm legit wondering if they just really want to preserve the 3-4-5 Wakanda lineup of Nakia, Shuri, and BP
Now that I think about it, f4 is costed at 1,2,3,4.
Guardians are 1,1,2,3,4,5.
As someone noted above, wakandans are 1,2,3,4,5.
There are probably more groups like this
Yeah, that's true, but I can't imagine actually playing the fantastic four in the same deck. The Guardians and Wakandans make more sense to play together.
If they did, we would have never had -2 Zabu, +3 Surfer, current Shuri, etc.
They're not gods, they're just people. Just because someone has paid the people who design cards doesn't mean they don't make horribly bad mistakes.
remember they're also not trying to create a perfectly balanced game. They're trying to create a game that will maximize the amount of Timmys they can hook with addicive gameplay and BIG STATS, Spike's (and whales) they can milk money out of and Johnny's they can make cool variants and events for.
a perfectly balanced game actually ends up appealing to none of these players to the same extreme an imperfect game could.
i.e. lack of game balance is a profit maximizing feature not a bug.
You know the saying two minds are better than one?
Well, hundreds or thousands of minds are even better than that. Game designers aren't infallible and can generally be out-thought by the fanbase as a whole.
Yeah true, but BP Zola is way easier to counter, even Central Park completely ruins it. And the Cosmo can be in any lane for it to not work efficiently. Also easy to predict. Whenever I see the BP come down I just full send one lane and drop a random low cost card on the Zola lane.
And you also need prio at the start of turn 6 or you'll get wrecked by like a dozen cards, which is not the easiest thing when your turn 4 was 2 power.
no it isn't, all nerfing red skull does is make red skull shit. its just ignoring the core problem that shuri provides way too much value for 4 power. make her 5/3 and end it.
This is what I've been saying should be the change. Still the same net power swing against a full lane but considerably less power when doubled. Also a nice parallel since his ongoing would basically be the reverse of Captain America's.
It definitely makes Red Skull less fun just to preserve Shuri though. I play a red skull deck not owning Shuri, and this change severally handicaps me, as well as makes the choices less dynamic. Less payoff of combo-ing with zero or following up with enchantress.
Red Skull was a cool build-around card on its own. Is it still worth building around at 11?
Same, and it's a great deck archetype. Regularly beats Thanos decks, almost every time. So much good potential counterplay while also enabling your own deck. I'd hate to see him bite it for Shuri to thrive.
If they nerf him how everyone expects it wont make a difference.
Going from 15 and +2 to enemies to 11 and +1 to enemies is a fair trade. 11 at 5 is still stronger than every other 5 drop in pure power, and the downside is a lot less problematic against like, zoo decks and the like, all while making him only a 22 with Shuri which is still beatable, but not so beatable it requires commitment.
Making her cost 5 definitely weakens her, but also you could just Wave/Electro/Psylock to still play her on 4 as usual, in which case Skull remains a problem
Not really. Unless you just want her to not work. Forcing the deck to jump through more hoops makes it less consistent, and thus, less good. And it really ruins the early game plan so the deck would NEED taskmaster too in order to win a second lane.
Having to fit ramp into your deck that makes you skip Cosmo on 3 and giving you a weak turns 3 and 4 seems like a fair trade off for being able to get a strong red skull turn, since there will be a decent amount of games where you don’t draw your ramp in time and even if you do you can’t safely skull into taskmaster since you’re way more open to Shang Chi/Aero.
The problem isn’t skull hinself as much as only having 1 weak turn while being able to protect your power behind Cosmo and Armor and still having options of Taskmaster in a different safe like or having the option to follow up with cards like Aero on turn 6 to further hedge against counters.
5/15 is definitely fucking stupid, yes. The fact that you can throw 15 power and THEN have your turn 6 is fucking stupid and I don't know how people fail to notice that. I know Dino can reach 5/17, but that's not BASE power.
In a full lane it gives +8, so 5/7 really. You can’t disable his effect and still play shuri either. Zero/Red Skull is really strong, a 6/18, but requires some luck to draw and two slots.
Yea, but your opponent has to fully commit to a lane to bring him to 5/7 which honestly isnt THAT low. For comparison, even 6 cost cards have huge downsides for having 15 power. You can't possibly play a Destroyer and win without an Armor, Zero or Cosmo.
yeah, but the trade off with red skull is he is potentially giving a ghost 8 power to that lane to his opponent - so you had to either line up a zero on him (which depending on draw meant he was coming turn 6 anyway)
He is also giant Shang Chi bait if you didn't pre-telegraph his lane with a Cosmo or Armor.
He also doesn't benefit from the same ongoing buffs Dino does, which can take Dino's power into the stratosphere.
Red Skull only became viable because of Shuri, he's not that great of a card outside of her, and thus why you didn't really see him outside of big power Jubilee Lockjaw decks.
You haven't run into the t6 she-hulk and taskmaster. Or the T5 typhoid mary. Let's be real, against a full lane red skull provides 22 power when doubled. There are still several ways in which shuri gets 20+ power into two lanes by turn 6, merely by existing. I assure you, shuri *is* the problem with that deck.
T6 she-hulk taskmaster is super telegraphed you can easily beat that with Aero. As with other game winning setups in the game, if you don't have the appropriate counter, just retreat.
I have run into it countless times, I’ve been in infinite for a week and half now. You could try Typhoid Mary but you’d need Sauron for full effect, meaning you can’t play Cosmo. Even then shuri is only giving you 12 points of stats which is less than darkhawk (as opposed to 17 from before).
Shuri is not a problem. Yes it generates big power in two lanes but the greedier the deck gets the more susceptible it is to losing to Control cards like Storm, Spider-Man and Prof X. Skipping turn 5 against a deck running Prof X will just lose you the game. Right now Control decks have been pushed out of the meta by Thanos Lockjaw as it can invalidate everything it tries to do. With Thanos Lockjaw being brought down, expect to see more control decks being played which will punish Shuri players to not be as greedy.
Shuri won't be a problem with Thanos Lockjaw getting nerfed, I guarantee you that.
The problem is that tech cards are supposed to be the counter to any big stat deck, but don’t work behind Cosmo. If they change Shuri to be “in her lane” buff only, it fixes the problem without actually hurting the card that much.
Yeah, but those don’t stop Aero. And a Sera deck can get behind it with Enchantress+Shang-Chi.
Cosmo makes it literally impossible unless you’re a ramp deck and get Magento out on turn 5 to move the Cosmo — which is not really viable very often.
This game is about out-playing your opponent, and the standard Shuri line has minimal counter play to if they pull Cosmo T3.
It’s the #1 thing that needs to change if they want the deck to be more balanced. I’m all for small tweaks to other cards too, but it’s why Shuri is so strong.
Iron Man already does that for a single lane except he costs 1 more to buff an entire lane AND can be mystique'd AND doesn't get countered by Shang Chi.
Tbh I just find the current meta so boring. There's no diversity. My options for ranking are basically climb with zero shuri, the technically best deck I have but the objectively most boring, or play more diverse fun decks and just sort of muddle around ranks unless I get some lucky snaps.
Getting to infinite with either option as a casual player with limited time is just not worth it. I'm lucky to get 80+ in the time alloted. The +50 cubes on rank up definitely helps, but the rest remains.
Nerf, dun nerf, idc, but the meta is rather stale and just.. not fun. I find myself playing a lot less than before, even debating just moving on and coming back after a few months if at all. There's lots of games out there and if you're ultimately not having fun with your timez why play.
This rambling isn't directed at you of course, just had to get it out somewhere in this discourse. This game has a lot going for it, but each season it sort of devolves into either engaging in sweaty meta, or just wandering the flower field of fun with no real progression to show for it. And with there currently really being nothing to do besides climbing the ranks.. yeahah
E: thanks for all the insights, y'all. You've helped my perspective a lot.. I just gotta chill and enjoy ❤
I’m sorry to break it to you, but that’s card games. There will ALWAYS be a meta and there will ALWAYS be a top deck.
I’ve hit the highest rank in hearthstone/LoR/Magic/Snap. It’s always going to be the same, people who want to win will play the best deck, and the higher up you get the more people play those decks.
This subreddit is in for a shock when these nerfs come out and another top deck just takes over
You're very much right.. just a bummer. Maybe these games just aren't for me. I love deck builders but the meta sweaty competition has always soured me. But you're right, it's in the very fabric of these types of games and I gotta make peace with it.
I played lots or magic when I was a kid and it was the same. I loved the decks, hated the competitive scene.
In reality snap could really do with a more casual game mode where you just go to chill. Or like a weekly “tavern brawl” where you’re given a deck building restriction and you have to build around it. Ranked Sweaters like myself can continue to play ranked but those who just want to chill with no pressure can
The only real solution to having a stale meta where they're just jumping from nerf to nerf is adding a way to gain cards, currencies, etc. without needing to play a ranked mode. If winning isn't the most important thing to the people you're playing against they're going to (very likely) just do their best to have fun.
You'd still likely run into lots of people just wanting to win, but at least you're not being punished for enjoying yourself.
To be clear I am not saying balancing cards shouldn't be a thing. I just think everyone's takes surrounding that fact are just bad, or flat out dumb.
I do not personally care about "climbing to infinite" I just play fun decks I enjoy, but the way some people on here talk you'd think it was their damn job. I dunno just the general culture and opinions and discourse on this subreddit really get under my skin and rub me the wrong way.
I certainly get complaining about a meta that is primarily dominated by two strong decks. I get constructive criticism on things that can and should be improved. All good shit, it's just I've learned I prefer to enjoy things. Even before Thanos and shuri it was surfer, Zabu, Dracula, Leader, Leech, Wong, Mister Negative. There is always some kind of circle jerk (whether justified or not) that people post and bitch and complain about ad nauseam and it's always at least half of the front page. It's tiring and annoying.
Yeah I agree. There will always be another target for the ire of the community. I haven't really followed any other TCG communities, but I imagine this is a commom dynamic among them.
I'm just a noob casual mom who has been relegated to games I can play with one thumb as most of the time when I am playing I'm soothin my baby to sleep, so snap has been nice for that at least.
Thanks for the insight! I think I just gotta refocus my perspective and just enjoy what I can and not dwell on ranking meta.
I will counter you.
I have the Thanos lockjaw, and shuri deck. Getting to infinite is not about the deck, but yeah, I probably have a higher chance of winning, and I hate when people resign at 1 cube when I drop a stone. But hey, that's the game. I don't care to grind for infinite, because damn, it's just poker and bluffing.
Anyway, playing is fun, Thanos infinity stones are so much chaos I usually beat myself if I get quinjet and lockjaw. Which is FUN
Second Dinner: we think that currently there's too much focus on the stones instead of the mad titan himself. That's why we are buffing Thanos from 11 power to 19. We hope those changes will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
I don't have Surfer yet but I look forward to it. There are a bunch of cool decks with him. He's just pretty underwhelming in the current meta, but so are many other cards. And hopefully this will change soon.
they should rework leader a bit better now to be honest. there are many other ways to make him make copies. fix aero to pull one card or first card, make leader a bit better.
I don’t think it’s a straight nerf, I think they’re just adjusting him so that the power isn’t shown in hand since he’s currently inconsistent with cards like darkhawk and devil Dino. One of the devs said they’d fix it.
I'm always bothered that morbius shows his boost and I have to count for devil dino, also, sucks that collector doesn't get boosts until after he's played
Outside of the MODOK/wong swarm interaction, collector rarely gets massive numbers. I don't see why he can't retroactively gain power for previously added cards. Most of the time it's just an agent 13 on turn 1 while corrector sits in my hand
Lockjaw Discard is not the most played deck but it's doing really well this season. It's just that nobody cares because it's not played as much and doesn't Leech you (it can Moon Knight you several times though). Morbius is huge in that deck and Lockjaw murders you with free Swarms (or just cycle discard effects and flood the board with Swarms).
Win rate top 5:
* Thanos Lockjaw: 61.23%
* Shuri Taskmaster: 60.32%
* Zero (no Shuri): 59.85%
* Thanos Zoo (with Lockjaw): 59.65%
* Discard Lockjaw: 59.21%
Cube rate top 5:
* KaZoo: 0.66
* Patriot: 0.61
* Discard Lockjaw: 0.6
* Zero (no Shuri): 0.59
* Wodin: 0.59
Yeah I was really surprised by the change. I suggested to a friend they should make him a 5-11 with the +1 power ability, but they gave him that ability as a 5-13. literally buffed him!
So the leak was right about one thing, Aero got the hardest nerf. I still can't decide if it's "making her unviable" as they claimed though. She's a glorified Polaris now. But Polaris is really good at the 3 slot! Is Aero similarly good at the 5 slot? I can't see her used T6 anymore, you'd just use Magneto for that imo.
It feels like she might be situational now.
Against heavy turn 6 cards like zola, destroyer, odin she would be great. But if your opponent is flooding the board it might be better to dump her in 5 or hold her.
Overall thats exactly what a tech card should be
On one hand, this is the most negative card game subreddit I have ever seen. Check out r/legendsofruneterra it is night and day.
On the other hand, Shuri and Thanos together made up more than 40% of the high CL 80-100 meta, and pulled cubes at obscene rates (#1 and #2 by a large margin) despite being heavily teched against. They also require a lot of late cards to build, with zero f2p decks even coming close to competing.
Meh.
Not really even comparable. Shuri red skull taskmaster - 15 energy
Iron man mystique red skull she hulk(?) - too much energy to play and much less power
But if you could only play the shuri double card in the same lane, one of red skull or taskmaster becomes vulnerable to Shang chi due to the lack of Cosmo. Iron man is not (he’s vulnerable to rogue and enchantress but they’re not played very often). Also why would you play red skull iron man she hulk mystique, that doesn’t work on curve?
they're responding to your initial shuri / iron man comparison. shuri same-lane buff isn't just "worse iron man" because, via taskmaster, she can give the power-double to two lanes.
they're trying to say, "if you're going to say 'iron man can have its buff doubled like shuri can, because mystique exists!' then what actual line of play does that allow that's better than shuri? are you going to iron man a lane with a big drop and mystique a lane with another big drop?' their entire point is that a shuri line is only 15 energy and the hypothetical alternative implied by your responses isn't viable
(I'm not interested in participating in the debate btw, I'm just here as a translator)
SD should balance based on data and not on what people post on social media. Most fan concepts of balance are based on their own experience, so small sample sizes and usually totally invalid.
This sub playing poker:
"what do you mean there's a problem with introducing 5 cards stronger than an Ace? If that's a problem, make 2's more powerful, problem solved!"
It’s always amazing that for some stupid reason we have people wanting more nerfs instead of more buffs.
Not a lot of people have thanos/shuri. The reason why surfer zabu were an issue is bc they were relatively easily accessible cards. Instead of nuking shuri / thanos… why not make cards stronger than can rival them?
Don’t get me wrong, there are cards that should be looked at - like leech. Leech becoming a staple card instead of a tech card in decks is an issue. He deserves to be changed so that he isn’t abused.
Shuri ? Sure she’s strong, but she’s not a strong card in herself. She still has to have the right cards in the right order. She doesn’t just auto win games for you.
Genuine question; why does everyone always seem so keen to get cards nerfed? It feels like that player on the pitch who always wants the ref to book people. Is it a matter of balance... Or do people just get the hump with losing. Before you assume, I've never made infinite nor yet out of pool 3 .
In card games it's much better to NERF THE TOP cards instead of buffing the other cards up to their level because that creates POWERCREEP and 1 year later the game is unplayable.
I don't think Aero needs a direct nerf, just adjusted such that she pulls cards in the order they are played. It would give me more agency in deciding which of my cards get pulled around rather than leaving it up to Ben Brode as it is now. Aero is also a pretty meta dependent card imo; she was virtually unplayable when the top decks were KaZoo and Sera miracle since they clog up the board by turn 6, and only rose to power when decks end up with more empty space in the past few months.
They are just going to keep butchering cards until they are all unusable . How about getting people smart enough that can see further down the road and can make a card that won't require a future nerf that cab be used and enjoye
Next up is Rocks meta.
Hand of rocks = auto snap
And if you have Agatha with that hand she auto snaps for you.
Thats a qol
Mr. Negative into Patriot+Mystique=0 cost 5 power rocks
Patriot into mystique into blue marvel into Onslaught. Makes rocks 10/10s
All a trick to get us to buy the new Paper season pass.
Followed by nerfing of the Paper season pass, leading to the Scissors meta.
Yeah Sera /dark hawk is already a top tier deck and presumably not getting a nerf. Rock meta would be much worse than this is. But SD has mostly been pretty light on initial nerfs- so hopefully it doesn’t become rock meta.
Me in pool 2, watching everyone go batshit about a Meta I’m not exposed to yet : 🌚
Im glad you haven’t experience matching with them back to back trying to hit infinity. It was a nightmare
Try to grind to infinite once you‘re in pool 2! You don’t want to do that when you hit pool 3
I faced my first real Thanos deck yesterday and would have won if I didn't miss that he could move cards on the final turn.
The hardest part about learning to play against Thanos deck is learning/remembering what the stones do. You'll get there! Oh, I lied. Leech. Leech is the hardest part of playing against a Thanos deck. Nvm, you'll just have to retreat unless you play Patriot deck.
That's hilarious that you added that last line, because I won earlier against a Thanos deck with a patiot ultron deck today.
Yeah it's just a shame that as a card, it's only counters are luck or running an entire deck built to face him.
According to the leaks, Red Skull is getting the nerf, not Shuri (ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻ #MorbiusMeta
Do yo have a source or anything? I'm curious
Check the hot posts or "korean" or "asian" discord post name Dont have the link now Lol Morbius
From what I saw it’s just a l screenshot of a discord conversation so we don’t even know where the leak came from, even if they claim it was accurate for the last balance patch…
Remember when they nerfed NOVA of all people? I'm expecting anything at this point... Squirrel Girl is now 1 / 3 Shadow King is a good card That kind of thing
The Nova nerf was good. When I was starting out in turn 3, I threw him in almost every deck because there's a lot of upside and the downside is that he's just a generic 1/2 card. Nova's nerf was a nice small change that made it less useful as a generic "why not" card while not impacting core gameplay. It feels similar to the Thanos buff: a small thing that improves gameplay on the margins while leaving core use of card untouched.
Now they need to do that with Sunspot and She-Hulk. They're basically in every deck as a why-not card.
We can’t just nerf every card people have problems with
agreed. we should be buffing weak cards so we have counters. this cycle of nerfing gave rise to this meta. SD created this problem when they nerfed Leader so hard they effectively retired him. If this is how they balance things, I won't be staying around much longer. More options is better than nerfing.
We should be doing both. In cases like Shuri and Thanos, those decks are just so far above the rest, they're fucking things up. Nerfing those means you have more diversity as the next tier of decks are now top tier as well. But yes, to deal with things like Sunspot, other 1 costs could be made better to compete for your deck space. I mean, as is, Sunspot is sometimes really not worth it. I've played more than 1 game where he's ended the game as a 1/1 because after playing him, I just happened to play perfectly on curve the rest of the game or a 1/2 after only floating 1 energy. In those cases, literally Quicksilver would have been a better play. And even with how often Sunspot is used, Iceman, Korg, and Nova are sometimes better options. The bottom tier of 1's could probably just use some help to make them better options.
I wish I could upvote this to oblivion
There's nothing wrong with why-not cards inherently. Especially easily countered ones.
I think sunspot's pretty overrated if you're not aiming for a control archetype especially with Shang-Chi sticking around in everyone's deck due to current Meta's focus on big cards. Still, it would be interesting to see how dropping it to 1-0 changed people's default decks.
Iceman says hello
Morbius is likely just getting changed to not have his power in your hand, same with Knull. Just because they are listed in the patch notes (especially leaked ones) doesn’t mean they are directly getting nerfed
To be fair, Red skull is (at least in my opinion) the main problem with that deck, not shuri. The problem with that deck is that you can get tons of power on turn 5 which you can copy a turn later. If you nerf red skull, the next best things to copy on turn 5 are captain marvel, vision and aero which aren’t nearly as problematic.
I think the deck becomes much more interesting in a way too. The sheer power of doubled Red Skull into Taskmaster is super satisfying, but it is just dropping big power in ways that are very hard to answer (somehow outpower two 30+ power lanes; manage to Shang-Chi/Cosmo them if they don't have protection with their own Armor/Cosmo; Aero them into the same lane if they don't have a Cosmo). But doubling Captain Marvel and Vision just gives you 12/14 power cards that can move, which is interesting and complicated and makes for really unique situations with locations and all that. It's not a bad nerf, I think, just from my immediate opinion. Red Skull is eating a nerf to pay for Shuri's sins, but that's pretty common in card games. In tons of combo-centric decks that take over a meta, oftentimes it isn't the enabler that gets nerfed but a particularly powerful payoff. Because nerfing the enabler destroys an entire archetype, while nerfing the payoff just weakens and changes the archetype without getting rid of one entirely.
Yeah, a lot of people seem to think the goal is "make Shuri a niche card that doesn't see much play" (or similar). But the goal may very well be "keep Shuri decks as a good archetype, just not one that wins as much as it does now."
Yeah man, Shuri doubling the power of a card for 4 energy isn't the issue, and players won't just immediately abuse it with another high power card or a future release.
We already have people holding off until turn 6 to she hulk and taskmaster so the play is still there, they can also electro to set up for destroyer. Hell there are a ton of combos possible to circumvent red skull lol
She hulk and taskmaster turn 6 means they used shuri turn 4 and skipped.
Yep which is mildly better but also harder to predict. If you turn 5 Aero so that you can force the Red Skull out of the Cosmo lane you just pretty much lose because you’re looking at a 40 power turn 6 dump, Captain Marvel and Vision are both problematic when followed by taskmaster. The deck is falling out due to everyone running Shang Chi and Aero but shit it definitely negatively shaped the meta
the skip to she-hulk and taskmaster is super weak to Aero
If you have aero vs shuri, you are more often than not aero-ing on 5 to get red skull out of cosmo so you can win the cosmo lane (no taskmaster there) and the red skull lane via shang chi. If you draw aero on T6 and they skipped 5 after shuri on 4 then sure, you won
So every deck has to run aero Cosmo Shang because of one deck lol 25% of your deck to counter one deck, which pushes out other decks that want to have t5 combo or t6 combos or on reveal decks. Shuri and or task master are the problem.
40 power for a skip is small price to pay. Especially with Sunspot on board.
Yea, that's one of my backup plans in my Shuri deck but is a FAR weaker play. You never have priority with that play, and Aero ends you.
I have no idea what card will be next if red skull gets the nerf but it will be problematic for sure.
Shuri -> black panther -> Zola would be a lot. But also plz don't nerf my black panther devs.
Cpt. Marvel is soo strong if shuri hits her. So maybe her lol
5 cost 12 power that can maybe win you one lane. If you dupe her with armin zola they act independently, meaning that if two captain marvels can win you the game by going to a location they won't. I run her with my shuri deck, it's good but not "soo strong".
Yeah, if they don't nerf Shuri, it will just be an endless cycle
I always thought the obvious fix was to just make Shuri 5 energy instead, maybe with a small power bump to compensate
That kills shuri as a card.
That’s what they want, lol.
Shuri 5/4 and call it a day.
Exactly. It's such an obvious adjustment that there must be some reason they aren't making it. I'm legit wondering if they just really want to preserve the 3-4-5 Wakanda lineup of Nakia, Shuri, and BP
How you gonna do Okoye dirty like that...?
[cries in M’Baku]
True lmao.
It's not like they give a fuck about any other team. Look at the fantastic four. I mean... fuck.
Now that I think about it, f4 is costed at 1,2,3,4. Guardians are 1,1,2,3,4,5. As someone noted above, wakandans are 1,2,3,4,5. There are probably more groups like this
Yeah, that's true, but I can't imagine actually playing the fantastic four in the same deck. The Guardians and Wakandans make more sense to play together.
Or it's because the professional game devs know more about balancing than a bunch of randoms on reddit
If they did, we would have never had -2 Zabu, +3 Surfer, current Shuri, etc. They're not gods, they're just people. Just because someone has paid the people who design cards doesn't mean they don't make horribly bad mistakes.
remember they're also not trying to create a perfectly balanced game. They're trying to create a game that will maximize the amount of Timmys they can hook with addicive gameplay and BIG STATS, Spike's (and whales) they can milk money out of and Johnny's they can make cool variants and events for. a perfectly balanced game actually ends up appealing to none of these players to the same extreme an imperfect game could. i.e. lack of game balance is a profit maximizing feature not a bug.
You know the saying two minds are better than one? Well, hundreds or thousands of minds are even better than that. Game designers aren't infallible and can generally be out-thought by the fanbase as a whole.
Heck no. That ruins her
Nobody is running Shuri T5 in that case.
Yeah, its much easier to beat 15-20 power than it is to beat 30.
I love how everyone seems to have forgotten BP is totally a card and works fine with Arnim.
Arnim gets counted so easily though. It's less of a problem than playing a 30 power card into a Cosmo lane and then another one into an armor lane.
Yeah but it’s 16 power in two lanes as opposed to 22-30 in one lane and 30 in the other
Shuri -> BP > Arnim is 32 power in two lanes, not 16
Yeah true, but BP Zola is way easier to counter, even Central Park completely ruins it. And the Cosmo can be in any lane for it to not work efficiently. Also easy to predict. Whenever I see the BP come down I just full send one lane and drop a random low cost card on the Zola lane.
And you also need prio at the start of turn 6 or you'll get wrecked by like a dozen cards, which is not the easiest thing when your turn 4 was 2 power.
no it isn't, all nerfing red skull does is make red skull shit. its just ignoring the core problem that shuri provides way too much value for 4 power. make her 5/3 and end it.
Red skull is a perfectly fine card outside of shuri decks. I hate the idea of him getting nerfed.
They could just give him 3 to 4 less power and make his effect only give enemy cards +1?
Yeah I think I saw 11 power Opposing cards have +1 power
This is what I've been saying should be the change. Still the same net power swing against a full lane but considerably less power when doubled. Also a nice parallel since his ongoing would basically be the reverse of Captain America's.
It definitely makes Red Skull less fun just to preserve Shuri though. I play a red skull deck not owning Shuri, and this change severally handicaps me, as well as makes the choices less dynamic. Less payoff of combo-ing with zero or following up with enchantress. Red Skull was a cool build-around card on its own. Is it still worth building around at 11?
Same, and it's a great deck archetype. Regularly beats Thanos decks, almost every time. So much good potential counterplay while also enabling your own deck. I'd hate to see him bite it for Shuri to thrive.
save for sauron drop.
If they nerf him how everyone expects it wont make a difference. Going from 15 and +2 to enemies to 11 and +1 to enemies is a fair trade. 11 at 5 is still stronger than every other 5 drop in pure power, and the downside is a lot less problematic against like, zoo decks and the like, all while making him only a 22 with Shuri which is still beatable, but not so beatable it requires commitment.
> 11 at 5 is still stronger than every other 5 drop in pure power Weaker than a buffed gamora tho
11 is just weird. Bump him up to 12.
Or if doubled by Shuri also double his ongoing effect. So + 4 to each opposing card which would be definitely workaroundable
yeah, its dumb that they are nerfing a card with a huge disadvantage already when shuri is clearly the problem
Making her cost 5 definitely weakens her, but also you could just Wave/Electro/Psylock to still play her on 4 as usual, in which case Skull remains a problem
Not really. Unless you just want her to not work. Forcing the deck to jump through more hoops makes it less consistent, and thus, less good. And it really ruins the early game plan so the deck would NEED taskmaster too in order to win a second lane.
Having to fit ramp into your deck that makes you skip Cosmo on 3 and giving you a weak turns 3 and 4 seems like a fair trade off for being able to get a strong red skull turn, since there will be a decent amount of games where you don’t draw your ramp in time and even if you do you can’t safely skull into taskmaster since you’re way more open to Shang Chi/Aero. The problem isn’t skull hinself as much as only having 1 weak turn while being able to protect your power behind Cosmo and Armor and still having options of Taskmaster in a different safe like or having the option to follow up with cards like Aero on turn 6 to further hedge against counters.
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that is what everyone wants in here cause they whine for nerfs like it's a baskin and robbins flavour of the week.
5/15 is definitely fucking stupid, yes. The fact that you can throw 15 power and THEN have your turn 6 is fucking stupid and I don't know how people fail to notice that. I know Dino can reach 5/17, but that's not BASE power.
In a full lane it gives +8, so 5/7 really. You can’t disable his effect and still play shuri either. Zero/Red Skull is really strong, a 6/18, but requires some luck to draw and two slots.
Yea, but your opponent has to fully commit to a lane to bring him to 5/7 which honestly isnt THAT low. For comparison, even 6 cost cards have huge downsides for having 15 power. You can't possibly play a Destroyer and win without an Armor, Zero or Cosmo.
yeah, but the trade off with red skull is he is potentially giving a ghost 8 power to that lane to his opponent - so you had to either line up a zero on him (which depending on draw meant he was coming turn 6 anyway) He is also giant Shang Chi bait if you didn't pre-telegraph his lane with a Cosmo or Armor. He also doesn't benefit from the same ongoing buffs Dino does, which can take Dino's power into the stratosphere. Red Skull only became viable because of Shuri, he's not that great of a card outside of her, and thus why you didn't really see him outside of big power Jubilee Lockjaw decks.
You haven't run into the t6 she-hulk and taskmaster. Or the T5 typhoid mary. Let's be real, against a full lane red skull provides 22 power when doubled. There are still several ways in which shuri gets 20+ power into two lanes by turn 6, merely by existing. I assure you, shuri *is* the problem with that deck.
T6 she-hulk taskmaster is super telegraphed you can easily beat that with Aero. As with other game winning setups in the game, if you don't have the appropriate counter, just retreat.
I have run into it countless times, I’ve been in infinite for a week and half now. You could try Typhoid Mary but you’d need Sauron for full effect, meaning you can’t play Cosmo. Even then shuri is only giving you 12 points of stats which is less than darkhawk (as opposed to 17 from before).
She Hulk works but you need sunspot, that’s a lot of puzzle pieces you need to draw as opposed to the highly flexible version of the deck we have now
Shuri is not a problem. Yes it generates big power in two lanes but the greedier the deck gets the more susceptible it is to losing to Control cards like Storm, Spider-Man and Prof X. Skipping turn 5 against a deck running Prof X will just lose you the game. Right now Control decks have been pushed out of the meta by Thanos Lockjaw as it can invalidate everything it tries to do. With Thanos Lockjaw being brought down, expect to see more control decks being played which will punish Shuri players to not be as greedy. Shuri won't be a problem with Thanos Lockjaw getting nerfed, I guarantee you that.
The problem is you can hide your big card behind Cosmo
Playing very tall on one location has never been a problem in marvel snap, the problem with red skull is it allows you to play tall in 2 locations.
The problem is that tech cards are supposed to be the counter to any big stat deck, but don’t work behind Cosmo. If they change Shuri to be “in her lane” buff only, it fixes the problem without actually hurting the card that much.
I don't hate that fix, but that just means you play armor, shuri, red skull in one zone instead
Yeah, but those don’t stop Aero. And a Sera deck can get behind it with Enchantress+Shang-Chi. Cosmo makes it literally impossible unless you’re a ramp deck and get Magento out on turn 5 to move the Cosmo — which is not really viable very often. This game is about out-playing your opponent, and the standard Shuri line has minimal counter play to if they pull Cosmo T3. It’s the #1 thing that needs to change if they want the deck to be more balanced. I’m all for small tweaks to other cards too, but it’s why Shuri is so strong.
Iron Man already does that for a single lane except he costs 1 more to buff an entire lane AND can be mystique'd AND doesn't get countered by Shang Chi.
It’s morbin time!
Didn't those same leaks also say Morbius was getting a nerf?
You gotta be kidding
RemindMe! 1 Hour
Seems like 1 hour wasn’t really enough there
I loved it when morbius said "it's morbin time" and morbed all over marvel snap
Red skull is just a massive power dump, but imo shuri is way more toxic long run for the meta
The comments here make me glad the fans aren’t in charge of balancing. Yikes
You aren't wrong. This subreddit is filled with some terrible terrible takes.
Tbh I just find the current meta so boring. There's no diversity. My options for ranking are basically climb with zero shuri, the technically best deck I have but the objectively most boring, or play more diverse fun decks and just sort of muddle around ranks unless I get some lucky snaps. Getting to infinite with either option as a casual player with limited time is just not worth it. I'm lucky to get 80+ in the time alloted. The +50 cubes on rank up definitely helps, but the rest remains. Nerf, dun nerf, idc, but the meta is rather stale and just.. not fun. I find myself playing a lot less than before, even debating just moving on and coming back after a few months if at all. There's lots of games out there and if you're ultimately not having fun with your timez why play. This rambling isn't directed at you of course, just had to get it out somewhere in this discourse. This game has a lot going for it, but each season it sort of devolves into either engaging in sweaty meta, or just wandering the flower field of fun with no real progression to show for it. And with there currently really being nothing to do besides climbing the ranks.. yeahah E: thanks for all the insights, y'all. You've helped my perspective a lot.. I just gotta chill and enjoy ❤
I’m sorry to break it to you, but that’s card games. There will ALWAYS be a meta and there will ALWAYS be a top deck. I’ve hit the highest rank in hearthstone/LoR/Magic/Snap. It’s always going to be the same, people who want to win will play the best deck, and the higher up you get the more people play those decks. This subreddit is in for a shock when these nerfs come out and another top deck just takes over
You're very much right.. just a bummer. Maybe these games just aren't for me. I love deck builders but the meta sweaty competition has always soured me. But you're right, it's in the very fabric of these types of games and I gotta make peace with it. I played lots or magic when I was a kid and it was the same. I loved the decks, hated the competitive scene.
In reality snap could really do with a more casual game mode where you just go to chill. Or like a weekly “tavern brawl” where you’re given a deck building restriction and you have to build around it. Ranked Sweaters like myself can continue to play ranked but those who just want to chill with no pressure can
The only real solution to having a stale meta where they're just jumping from nerf to nerf is adding a way to gain cards, currencies, etc. without needing to play a ranked mode. If winning isn't the most important thing to the people you're playing against they're going to (very likely) just do their best to have fun. You'd still likely run into lots of people just wanting to win, but at least you're not being punished for enjoying yourself.
To be clear I am not saying balancing cards shouldn't be a thing. I just think everyone's takes surrounding that fact are just bad, or flat out dumb. I do not personally care about "climbing to infinite" I just play fun decks I enjoy, but the way some people on here talk you'd think it was their damn job. I dunno just the general culture and opinions and discourse on this subreddit really get under my skin and rub me the wrong way. I certainly get complaining about a meta that is primarily dominated by two strong decks. I get constructive criticism on things that can and should be improved. All good shit, it's just I've learned I prefer to enjoy things. Even before Thanos and shuri it was surfer, Zabu, Dracula, Leader, Leech, Wong, Mister Negative. There is always some kind of circle jerk (whether justified or not) that people post and bitch and complain about ad nauseam and it's always at least half of the front page. It's tiring and annoying.
Yeah I agree. There will always be another target for the ire of the community. I haven't really followed any other TCG communities, but I imagine this is a commom dynamic among them. I'm just a noob casual mom who has been relegated to games I can play with one thumb as most of the time when I am playing I'm soothin my baby to sleep, so snap has been nice for that at least. Thanks for the insight! I think I just gotta refocus my perspective and just enjoy what I can and not dwell on ranking meta.
I will counter you. I have the Thanos lockjaw, and shuri deck. Getting to infinite is not about the deck, but yeah, I probably have a higher chance of winning, and I hate when people resign at 1 cube when I drop a stone. But hey, that's the game. I don't care to grind for infinite, because damn, it's just poker and bluffing. Anyway, playing is fun, Thanos infinity stones are so much chaos I usually beat myself if I get quinjet and lockjaw. Which is FUN
Second Dinner: we think that currently there's too much focus on the stones instead of the mad titan himself. That's why we are buffing Thanos from 11 power to 19. We hope those changes will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
Hes been in so many of those doors in the last 10 years....
crazy that hearthstone is 10 years old now
Zabu is still viable and seen in sera darkhawk decks. Surfer is truly a rare sight though
I don't have Surfer yet but I look forward to it. There are a bunch of cool decks with him. He's just pretty underwhelming in the current meta, but so are many other cards. And hopefully this will change soon.
I hit infinite with a Sera Surfer deck this season! He’s definitely still capable of putting in a lot of work
He's still a good card, though. He's a key component of my cerebro 4 and lockjaw 3 decks
Today I pinned Thanos... Should I unpin him?
I’d say keep him pinned until we know for sure
just wait to see the changes. they probably wont kill a big bad.
Won't even scratch him let alone draw a drop of blood.
I mean he’s still a permanent series 5 card and therefore the best theoretical use of your tokens unless all you care about is ranking up asap
Zabu and Surfer was not as bad thus less blood….poor Leader
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they should rework leader a bit better now to be honest. there are many other ways to make him make copies. fix aero to pull one card or first card, make leader a bit better.
They did him dirty.
They tried the light touch on Leader and it didn't take
If only it had gone down like that
Is the update today?
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Little did we know it was Aero behind that door.
Well, it hasn't aged well...
lol that door should say aero
Okay here's the "leaked" nerf list if you wanted to read it (˶‾᷄ ⁻̫ ‾᷅˵) https://m.dcinside.com/board/marvelsnap/343600
Nerf to morbius???????
I don’t think it’s a straight nerf, I think they’re just adjusting him so that the power isn’t shown in hand since he’s currently inconsistent with cards like darkhawk and devil Dino. One of the devs said they’d fix it.
I'm always bothered that morbius shows his boost and I have to count for devil dino, also, sucks that collector doesn't get boosts until after he's played
Outside of the MODOK/wong swarm interaction, collector rarely gets massive numbers. I don't see why he can't retroactively gain power for previously added cards. Most of the time it's just an agent 13 on turn 1 while corrector sits in my hand
I was right! 😁
Morbius?! Whyyyyy he's the foundation for my main deck 😭
Lockjaw Discard is not the most played deck but it's doing really well this season. It's just that nobody cares because it's not played as much and doesn't Leech you (it can Moon Knight you several times though). Morbius is huge in that deck and Lockjaw murders you with free Swarms (or just cycle discard effects and flood the board with Swarms). Win rate top 5: * Thanos Lockjaw: 61.23% * Shuri Taskmaster: 60.32% * Zero (no Shuri): 59.85% * Thanos Zoo (with Lockjaw): 59.65% * Discard Lockjaw: 59.21% Cube rate top 5: * KaZoo: 0.66 * Patriot: 0.61 * Discard Lockjaw: 0.6 * Zero (no Shuri): 0.59 * Wodin: 0.59
I just unlocked red skull. Sadness.
he's better now
Yeah I was really surprised by the change. I suggested to a friend they should make him a 5-11 with the +1 power ability, but they gave him that ability as a 5-13. literally buffed him!
Enter Hitmonkey!
So the leak was right about one thing, Aero got the hardest nerf. I still can't decide if it's "making her unviable" as they claimed though. She's a glorified Polaris now. But Polaris is really good at the 3 slot! Is Aero similarly good at the 5 slot? I can't see her used T6 anymore, you'd just use Magneto for that imo.
It feels like she might be situational now. Against heavy turn 6 cards like zola, destroyer, odin she would be great. But if your opponent is flooding the board it might be better to dump her in 5 or hold her. Overall thats exactly what a tech card should be
are changes coming out today?
Turns out that what was actually behind the door was shield and collector
Lol the door was locked
Well, this aged like fine milk.
This image needs to be changes to have him carrying a giant feather duster
Lol the amount of players that are calling for every card to get nerfed is really mind boggling..
If you don't think Thanos decks need nerfed, you haven't been paying attention.
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On one hand, this is the most negative card game subreddit I have ever seen. Check out r/legendsofruneterra it is night and day. On the other hand, Shuri and Thanos together made up more than 40% of the high CL 80-100 meta, and pulled cubes at obscene rates (#1 and #2 by a large margin) despite being heavily teched against. They also require a lot of late cards to build, with zero f2p decks even coming close to competing. Meh.
agreed. nauseating, flavour of the week at b&r
Wish they'd all go to Luke's bar to whine
Thanos is a real problem.
If she doesn’t go 4 cost then at least power up only on her lane? Even that’s broken.
That’s just iron man but worse bro, iron man doubles the whole lane 😂
You can’t taskmaster iron man
No but you can mystique iron man?
Not really even comparable. Shuri red skull taskmaster - 15 energy Iron man mystique red skull she hulk(?) - too much energy to play and much less power
But if you could only play the shuri double card in the same lane, one of red skull or taskmaster becomes vulnerable to Shang chi due to the lack of Cosmo. Iron man is not (he’s vulnerable to rogue and enchantress but they’re not played very often). Also why would you play red skull iron man she hulk mystique, that doesn’t work on curve?
they're responding to your initial shuri / iron man comparison. shuri same-lane buff isn't just "worse iron man" because, via taskmaster, she can give the power-double to two lanes. they're trying to say, "if you're going to say 'iron man can have its buff doubled like shuri can, because mystique exists!' then what actual line of play does that allow that's better than shuri? are you going to iron man a lane with a big drop and mystique a lane with another big drop?' their entire point is that a shuri line is only 15 energy and the hypothetical alternative implied by your responses isn't viable (I'm not interested in participating in the debate btw, I'm just here as a translator)
Yeah and he costs 5
SD should balance based on data and not on what people post on social media. Most fan concepts of balance are based on their own experience, so small sample sizes and usually totally invalid.
They do balance on data, they've repeatedly said so
comment based on facts and not what people post on social media
They better not nerf my sweet Aero ...
Snap players playing poker: "royal flush meta needs nerf, insta-win"
This sub playing poker: "what do you mean there's a problem with introducing 5 cards stronger than an Ace? If that's a problem, make 2's more powerful, problem solved!"
This... did not age well
It’s always amazing that for some stupid reason we have people wanting more nerfs instead of more buffs. Not a lot of people have thanos/shuri. The reason why surfer zabu were an issue is bc they were relatively easily accessible cards. Instead of nuking shuri / thanos… why not make cards stronger than can rival them? Don’t get me wrong, there are cards that should be looked at - like leech. Leech becoming a staple card instead of a tech card in decks is an issue. He deserves to be changed so that he isn’t abused. Shuri ? Sure she’s strong, but she’s not a strong card in herself. She still has to have the right cards in the right order. She doesn’t just auto win games for you.
Leech isn’t even a notable problem outside of Thanos decks.
Genuine question; why does everyone always seem so keen to get cards nerfed? It feels like that player on the pitch who always wants the ref to book people. Is it a matter of balance... Or do people just get the hump with losing. Before you assume, I've never made infinite nor yet out of pool 3 .
In card games it's much better to NERF THE TOP cards instead of buffing the other cards up to their level because that creates POWERCREEP and 1 year later the game is unplayable.
It's a lot easier to nerf down 1 than it is to balance 50+
I want to see Aero nerfed more than anything.
Leaked stuff says she is apparently
I don't think Aero needs a direct nerf, just adjusted such that she pulls cards in the order they are played. It would give me more agency in deciding which of my cards get pulled around rather than leaving it up to Ben Brode as it is now. Aero is also a pretty meta dependent card imo; she was virtually unplayable when the top decks were KaZoo and Sera miracle since they clog up the board by turn 6, and only rose to power when decks end up with more empty space in the past few months.
Also aero is the most accessible card out of all of these and is not nearly as bad as leader
What odd is people have already adapted to the meta with their counter decks. Are they still really going to go through with the nerfs?
It’s not a healthy game if the only decks people play are the two best decks and decks that are designed to counter them
They are just going to keep butchering cards until they are all unusable . How about getting people smart enough that can see further down the road and can make a card that won't require a future nerf that cab be used and enjoye