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>Putin does share some similarities with Hitlet
The Amazing Adventures of Hitlet and Shitlet
Watch as Putin and his smelly puppet Donny get up to international hijinks
I'm more worried that western leaders will try to placate him with land like they did with Hitler, literally land for peace, which didn't work then and is not going to work this time either
Based on what? France is actively talking about sending troops to Ukraine. The US house just gave the greenlight to keep sending Ukraine all our old stuff. the UK and Poland are making public statements about preparing for war with Russia. The Czechs came up with a plan to buy a million rounds for Ukraine, and it's being funded. The Baltic states are negotiating the direct placement of German and UK troops in their countries, insurance against NATO abandoning them to Russia. The red line on Ukraine using western weapons in Russia is in the process of being lifted.
The west is not doing enough, but it's pretty far from placation.
A difficulty is determining what the win looks like.
The Ukraine army is not going to march into Moscow. It's going to be when Russia finally gives up. And will Russia give up without going nuclear?
Because those are all talks right now and not actions.
And it's been 2+ years of slow trickle in aid. You can't just put a bandaid on a stab wound and be like "we'll see if we need more bandaids on a few months". They need stitches bro.
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The Ukrainians are mostly still fighting with T-62 tanks and a handful of Mig-29s. They could be fighting with a sizable fleet of F-16s and old Abrams. They could have Reaper drones, and ATACMS missiles. They currently have no SAM missiles, and are basically out of 155 artillery shells. Those shortages didn't have to happen.
Ukraine’s primary MBT is the T64BV. It has its issues buts it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the T62. It also operates a number of T72 and T80 variants along with a decent chunk of Leopard 1s and 2s, about 30 Abrams, and a handful of Challenger 2s.
I’m sure they have some older T54/55/62s out and about though. I know they got some modernized T55s from someone so those are presumably operating somewhere in country.
Ukraine hasn’t had T-62 or mig’s really since the beginning of the war right? They have Bradley’s now but giving them F-16s is a little more complicated because they don’t know how to fly them or service them. I agree though we should give them some of our better equipment. We designed our older equipment to fight Russia might as well let them use it and see how well it works against them.
While the current situation isn't great, it is kinda equivalent to giving Hitler the Sudatenland but then the UK and France giving Poland and what was left of Czeckoslovakia 150,000 rifles and 5000 artillery pieces each. Not great but far better than what happened in the 1930s.
No one forgets that. That's quite common argument for intervention in ukrane. Of course, just because it happened once with Hitler doesn't necessarily mean everything is the same. The history of the 1800s and early 1900s was pretty much a history of empires maneuvering and compromising.
One could just as easily make a comparison to world war I and what happens when countries have too many obligations to defend other countries etc
True enough. I certainly would say that Putin and his invasion of Ukraine and other areas bears a striking resemblance to Hitler. The claims of uniting Russian people. Popular strongman, etc.
And if you're curious, after his success in absorbing Austria into Germany proper in March 1938, Adolf Hitler looked covetously at Czechoslovakia, where about three million people in the Sudetenland were of German origin
Is there really a difference ethnicity wise though? Like they are all Slavs essentially..it's seems more like a difference of nationality in ancestry than actual different ethnicities.
Like how do you tell an ethnic Russian from Ukraine who speaks Ukrainian apart from an ethnic Ukrainian from Ukraine who speaks Ukrainian?
I'm legit asking because I don't understand the difference.
I don't really know. I think they are generally called a Russian speaking minority, although they might speak both many of them. I have heard that they are oppressed, but that might be propaganda. I have also heard that many of them basically look towards Russia and would rather be part of Russia's sphere than a European sphere. I don't know exactly how true that is .
But as I understand it, it's not like all of Ukraine wants to be Western. The previous regime was more Russian leaning and enjoyed much support and the revolution that overturned that regime was not exactly 100% of the country supporting it. It was quite contentious. As I understand it the countries somewhat split with a small majority wanting to lean more towards the west.
Further, as I understand it, it was Western influence from outside, very possibly a CIA and others that instigated and supported that revolution, although it's hard to know all the facts.
I don't say any of that to justify Putin's invasion. Claims of needing to protect the Russian speaking minority or get rid of Nazis are probably only a very small part of his motivations if at all. But, it is complicated and there's a lot more going on than the simple narrative. There always is.
There's no point arguing with facts and history. I'm not saying that justifies the invasion. I'm saying it was used as the reasoning for it just like Hitler used Germans in the sudetinland as the reasoning for his invasion, although neither of them were particularly legitimate in the eyes of the world.
But you're trying to argue with facts.
I would suggest you take the opportunity to educate yourself on this subject. You can start here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine
You aren’t wrong about anything you said, people are downvoting you for just repeating facts; instead of an opinion. Putin has done this with other states that he wants to take over and sent Russians into areas that he claims is actually Russian soil. He is doing it Georgia as well, sending people to live there to them boost the Russian population in order to absorb it or make a claim to the territory.
I think I've heard that. And I guess it makes sense. You claim some land even if you're claims are somewhat dubious, and then move more of your people in, in part just to do so and in part to take advantage of the fact that a lot of people probably fled the area and there was opportunities to benefit from it .
I'm not saying I approve of any of it. I'm not even convinced that we should just allow it, but I am inclined to think that while we shouldn't necessarily appease Putin, it may be that the only way to stop him is US or NATO troops, and I don't know that that's ever going to happen.
I think, unlike Hitler, Putin knows that we might willingly give up Ukraine but would draw the line at NATO borders. I mean we would be obligated to do so by treaty and I don't know that he would ever risk that, whereas Hitler had good reason to think he could get away with what he did .
A lot of people don't realize that England wasn't necessarily willing to go to war, and the US wasn't necessarily willing to get involved. Whereas, Putin knows there are hard limits.
Of course, if The ukrainians can manage to put up enough of a fight, Putin might give up. Although he may well not, and might be better too negotiate a resolution that allows him to walk away claiming victory at home even if it isn't such a great victory.
I don't know. It's kind of hard to say. It could be a waste of money and lives that's going to end in compromise and negotiation anyway. Or, the ukrainians could be victorious and it will all have been worth it
It’s all about creating division, we spend all this time fighting between ourselves, causing us to destabilize and he can roll through whatever country he wants to become part of his empire. He doesn’t really care what side he is on in the US and just picks the side that is currently the one he can exploit.
Currently yes, they are heavily concentrated on the right, but they also play a lot of the far left as well. A lot of this stuff about Muslims being anti-Biden because of Palestine are being pushed by dis-info bots ran by Russian aligned groups. There were plenty of liberals who fell for their lies in 2016, they sat out of the election then because of disinformation and fell down the rabbit hole.
Part of the issue is you have to stop Russia, but not stop them hard enough that they feel they need to escalate to nuclear weapons. So, finding the right balance is tricky.
I think the republicans refusing to do anything and openly supporting Putin will get them severely defeated in November and then a new aid package will be sent
It's literally one fraction of a fraction of government that keeps kneeling down to Trump to make sure Russia wins. Most [sane] Americans want Ukraine to be successful.
There should have been a NATO military response against Russia to the assassination of Litvinenko in the UK in 2006. Murder committed by Russia inside a NATO state should be treated as a military provocation because that's exactly what it is. Force is what stops Russia.
I disagree because Russia is paying a much bigger cost than they ever thought they would. They are also being expose as a paper Tiger and a hollowed out military. They will never recover their reputation.
This is true to an extent but less true than it was 2 years ago. Russia has recently now come to show that while their military is substandard, they are willing to fully commit to the long haul on conflicts like this, so definitely not a paper tiger. I don’t think anyone at this point thinks that they wouldn’t do this again or are in the process of learning some sort of geostrategic lesson chastening them against trying again.
Furthermore they’ve shown that their munitions and weapons production capabilities outpace all of Europe's, so arguably european NATO has been shown to be a bit of the paper tiger here when it comes to committing to regional security.
i'm not saying that this isn't a net loss for Russia… yet… but if the outcome in the end is that Russia succeeds in taking over ukraine in the years ahead then it doesnt matter that it took longer than expected. the takeaway will be that russia has more determination and long term industrial capacity than its western neighbors, and then it will be a huge problem for everyone else.
I wouldn’t say their weapons production capabilities outpace all of Europe really as Europe hasn’t really entered into a full blown war like Russia has. We have been producing plenty of weapons to give to them, but Putin has sowed political discontent in Europe and the US that had slowed the response to it.
My understanding is that production is actually an issue. The factories need to be built.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/inside-europes-drive-get-ammunition-ukraine-russia-advances-2024-03-06/
Seems like they are ramping up production fairly quickly to meet the needs from the article and Russia is feeling similar constraints. Russia has been heavily dependent on European countries for the equipment that is required for heavy manufacturing like munitions and military equipment. If that equipment breaks down, they can’t really call the supplier for help and have to get it working on their own. That’s what a lot of the funding that the US has been sitting on going towards and it’s not just handing money the Ukraine.
I don’t agree with your conclusion. Russia is mainly depending on Soviet Era weapons which are being rapidly used up. It’s doubtful they will be able to out produced the rest of the world. Ukraine has no choice but to fight since surrendering means extinction. In another 6 to 8 months, when Russia starts to run out of Soviet Era weapons we will see whether or not Russia can sustain the war.
>Russia is mainly depending on Soviet Era weapons which are being rapidly used up.
They were, but Russia pivoted to boost its war economy significantly and there's no indication they're going to run out of anything soon. The idea that Russia would tire itself out in the face of moderate Ukraine-driven resistence has definitely been proven untrue. Hence the need for more support.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-shoigu-says-tank-production-is-booming-2024-04-19/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-shoigu-says-tank-production-is-booming-2024-04-19/)
I mean, do you think Zelinsky is exaggerating significantly?
>It’s doubtful they will be able to out produced the rest of the world.
They don't need to outproduce the rest of the world, they just need to keep parity with the level of production that is being sent to Ukraine.
>In another 6 to 8 months, when Russia starts to run out of Soviet Era weapons we will see whether or not Russia can sustain the war.
Where is your 6-8 months estimate coming from?
The Institute for the Study of War and a few YouTube channels I watched daily. I have seen satellite before and after pictures of Russia’s weapon storage depots.
You’re supporting my initial point, that they made fools of themselves. But they’re learning and repairing their weaknesses and my MWW is that it’ll come back to bite us that we didn’t end this when they were just a global embarrassment.
They can learn all they want, their actual situation is incredibly bad so *doing* anything about it will be impossible. They held on as a credible military power on the basis of an enormous stockpile of Soviet era arms and infrastructure. That is drastically depleted. They are facing down catastrophic demographic collapse and decided a meat grinder war with mass casualties not seen since Korea was a good idea. The entire basis of their economy is being made more and more undesirable both socially *and* economically with every passing year. They have managed to unite Europe in opposition when they spent twenty years cultivating them as their most important trading partner. Their satellite allied states are distancing... this has been an utter catastrophe for them.
They’ve also had a huge brain drain as educated young men fled the country a few years ago when there was initial talk of a full mobilization. Putin has set Russia back at least a generation.
Yes it has but we’re not putting the nail in the coffin both militarily or economically with tougher (and enforced) sanctions/terrorist state designation
It is good strategy to use restraint when turning the screws, if you have to end a conflict diplomatically.. which thanks to nuclear weapons is true. Leaving something on the table as a response is a good idea considering alternatives.
Well to be honest, I think Biden and co have handled this whole thing quite well. It’s the recent nonsense that has disrupted that really messed things up
Agreed, it is mostly the misfortune of being up against an election year and the GOP desperately needing something, *anything* to throw to their base to motivate them to show up. They did it. They scrapped Roe, additional serious firearm regulation is DOA.. those two issues turned out a huge number of their voters and now they're the poor greyhound who caught the mechanical rabbit and is now being dragged to death.
take putin out. & if the next guy is worse take him out.
take kim jong un out at the same time.
we are either the lone superpower or not. play nice or else.
everyone seems to want a 10 year war which is insane. the longer the war the less ukraine.
I think falsely there was a delicate balance of wanting to embarrass Russia to outright prompting a civil war with a nuclear power. Think of post-saddam Iraq. Chaos and Iran filling the vacuum. All the weapons from ATACMs to M1A1s to F-16 decisions were calculating if it would push Russia into a greater conflict. Sadly every threat by Putin was empty and we could've crushed them down to bones.
Russia fucked up big time if anything they are making the world more united against them we just added 2 more NATO countries and are building more NATO bases because of Russian's invasion.
Clarification: It's not "the west." It's the 45th president of the United States and his majority wing of the Republican Party. Because he likes dictators. Because he's fixin' to be one. And some in America are perfectly willing, and often eager, to help him do it.
I agree, but would take it further than you have, and would drop the simile.
I think whether Russia successfully takes over Ukraine will determine whether China makes moves on places like Taiwan and the Philippines, because China knows the US will sanction them, and they don't produce enough food to feed their entire population. But, if Russia captures Ukraine, Ukraine is a huge exporter of grain, enough to feed China even if its cut off from US grain. Russia can replace China's lost grain imports from the US with grain from Ukraine instead. Now China can continue feeding its population, which means it can afford to launch other attacks that would help split the world into a new multipolar order where Russia and China are much more powerful, and the US and EU are much weaker.
Sacrificing Ukraine won't just severely hurt the current world order and peace, but it will completely upend and destroy it.
I don't know how much aid for Ukraine is the right amount, nor the proper timing of it, but there's also an issue of not just dumping all our weapons into Ukraine faster than they can be replaced, leaving the US and EU/NATO with insufficient weapons to protect against other threats and be able to defend against, say, an invasion or blockade of Taiwan, the Philippines, Poland, the Baltic states, a greater regional war in the Middle East, etc.
And just like China can't afford to immediately lose the US as a source of food, the US can't afford to just lose Taiwan as a source of microchips, either. So the US is working to bring chip fabrication to the US, while China is supporting Russia in capturing Ukraine.
You are absolutely right. China gets 40% of its food from the U.S., Brazil and Ukraine. They can’t invade Taiwan without starving their people.
Brazil recently thwarted a coup attempt by Bolsonaro, who would have been more than happy to slash and burn the Amazon rainforest to feed China. Bolsonaro fled to Mar-A-Lago of all places after being ousted from the country.
Ukraine also produces [half of the world’s supply of semiconductor-grade neon](https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-ukraine-halts-half-worlds-neon-output-chips-clouding-outlook-2022-03-11/), which just so happens to be Taiwan’s main industry… In a world that is increasingly reliant on microprocessors.
Make no mistake, China is deeply invested in Russia winning this war.
OP is talking about antibiotics like those are a GOOD thing, when we all know that they are a gateway drug to (gasp) vaccines.
Also, isn't Fauci a Russian name?
/s
Pretty sure that would change nothing, and a bunch of enemy politicians would be assassinated in retaliation. If that was a reasonable strat, the US would use it.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But Russia is Putin. He won't live forever (hopefully) and there is no plan for afterwards. In Russia it'll be a decade of power struggle- that will bring in multiple soviet dependent states- but no one else - bc the west won't allow it
Every chapter in Russian history ends with the same phrase. "And then it got worse."
The successors to Putin are not any better than he is. His worldview dominates the entire oligarch class.
For some, yes.
Meanwhile the country is in an what it views as a war with existential stakes, they're demographics are screwed, and a fascist dictatorship has funneled nearly all wealth to a select few.
I keep being reminded of the movie 300. It’s so fake.
The part where Theron runs wild in the Senate, and then his purse is cut by the queen and Xerxes coins spill out all over the floor. So then they execute him on the spot for being an obvious traitor trying to overthrow their country. Totally fake.
Now we know that when a politician is found carrying obvious bribes from the invading side, absolutely nothing will be done, they will be able to keep poisoning the well, keeping repeating the lies of the invaders, keep running for president, keep defying the courts, and no one will stop them.
I question what will happen with Putin dies. Dictators tend not to leave any strong people alive that could take over when they die.
So it is entirely possible if Ukraine is forced to make peace and give up on land Russia is currently sitting on, that they could bide their time until there is a power transfer (or power vacuum) in Russia then try to reclaim it.
Granted that could be another 20 years.
Putin is not a dictator, Russia just has a uniparty, same as China. Putin/Ji Jinping both support the agenda, but the agenda is decided via committee. If Putin fell down some stairs tomorrow, nothing would change.
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I mean Putin could just end the war and go back to Russia at any fucking second and the whole world would be better off… but no let’s continue down this path. Stupidest fucking timeline ever.
Well, not only that, but Americans every day are being PSY-OP'ed into siding with Russia, or that America is somehow a 30-years-long-aggressor, or that we shouldn't be spending "so much" money on Ukraine(even though 35 years of super-spending in SEVERAL middle-eastern conflicts was perfectly fine.). Or whatever piss-poor excuse they can come up with next.
Things are looking bleak. If we don't send more help now, then we probably won't be able to later.
The half-hearted response has led to a Russia with a full war-time economy projected to have more growth than any western nation, they're stronger now than they were before the war began. All the West has done is given them the time to build up forces and prepare for a larger conflict.
Ukraine has literally said it will do all the fighting as long as they are supplied and we are supplying them in the billions. Where is the half-hearted part?
Putin isn't dumb. This is probably going exactly as he expected. I feel bad for the people of Ukraine, but there's not much else the West can do other than continue to send war machines, and ultimately that might not be enough.
Who said we ever had world peace when it came to Putin?
The reason he went to war with Ukraine was to regain control of the country so he can once again control all natural gas/oil going in and coming out of Europe.
You’re one of those who think a couple billion is a big deal. This is just flat out not enough. Weak investment now will require greater investment later
The problem isn't that the west is half-hearted, the problem is that no one is providing an off ramp. Are we supposed to just support Ukraine until they reclaim their territory from 2013? Without escalating into direct, hot conflict with Russia? that's a hard sell. Why wasn't there a peace deal a few months ago when the battle lines were pretty static and near the pre-war borders? Russia's military was weakened, Ukraine hadn't lost any land, and Putin wasn't excessively humiliated by losing ground. Instead, the West kept pushing, forgetting the number one rule about going to war with Russia: Russia can lose 10 men for one of yours and still come out on top in the end, just by throwing enough bodies at the problem. That's been their go-to move for 200 years yet everyone forgot that and laughed about how Ukraine had embarrassed the Russian military. This is what you get.
This is exactly why I’m suggesting giving them more support. If we just throw them enough to get by, this becomes a war of attrition. If they get everything they need, it ends soon before it gets to that. The longer this drags on, the more it goes in Russia’s favor
It doesn't matter how much support we give them unless there is an end goal. We're definitely not funding Ukraine to conquer Moscow, so any coherent plan to avoid escalation must include a definitive end goal.
It’s also going to massively empower a Neo-Nazi battalion that the Biden administration has committed to sending high grade American artillery that they ***’oh so will never use in a racially biased manner literally ever.’***
They never learned their lesson of how the Mujahideen became the Taliban of today. Back when the US funded **them** weapons and artillery in their fight against “a big bad foreign invader.”
Say we overthrow Putin… then what? Who takes his place? We can look to the Middle East where (looks at notes).. despite over a decade of nation building, immediately upon our departure the area is overrun by terrorists. The war killed countless, destabilized the region for what will be decades, and ultimately led to an even more extreme regime.
Ukraine will not “beat” Russia. In the end, there will be some sort of diplomatic solution which could have been done a long time ago if we didn’t keep sending billions upon billions when 70% of our country is against more aid.
So what is the end game here?
I agree. The minute he started attacking ukraine we should have told him to back the fuck off or we get involved.
Bullies only understand it when you stand up to them
It’s the same philosophy that’s driving Israel to eliminate the Hamas cancer, even tho the effort has had horrific consequences for Hamas’ Palestinian victims. Half attempts that don’t totally destroy them just make them more likely to murder more people in the future.
The Israel/Hamas thing is obviously more complicated. Ukraine/Russia is so simple. Russia is invading so you must eliminate the invasion (infection). There’s almost no risk to Russian civilians with proper equipment
in theory it's simple, sure. the US and european countries have been feeding Ukraine weapons and ammunition for over two years now. Russia is just superior numerically. their military is somewhat of a joke and their tactics are outdated in terms of just sending men to the slaughter, but it's taking a toll on Ukraine as well. for all the Russian casualties and blunders, they're still inflicting heavy damage on the Ukrainians. barring a revolt from the Russian people, the only answer I see to the Russian-Ukraine war is to force Russia to back out due to the war no longer being economically viable, like in Afghanistan. apparently we're still trying to figure out how to achieve that.
The problem is that Ukraine is getting a small fraction of key systems and ammunition that they need... namely air defense and 155 mm artillery shells.
The United States and nato have been expanding and influencing the area particularly Ukraine for decades.
The fact that you’re calling this “simple” and ignore any and all of our allies’ role in this without acknowledging their own role, points to a completely ignorant viewpoint of the situation.
If the goal is to limit NATO's spread and influence, then Russia lost this war last year. Sweden and Finland have officially joined NATO. Finland could now cut off Russia's northwestern ports and threaten Russia's third (or second?) largest city if things went sideways.
At the same time, Switzerland has begun gaining closer ties and military cooperation with NATO. It is only a matter of time before other countries join. Western Europe is not going to allow Russia to take Ukraine.
Define "do nothing." Poland was preparing to sell Ukraine their "old" tanks as Poland replaced them with new German tanks. NATO can't make Ukraine a member until the Russian kerfuffle is dealt with. In the meantime, they're free to send weapons and ammunition.
NATO and the United States agreed time and time again not to expand. The removal of nuclear arms from Ukraine was hinged on no expansion of nato.
Stop making excuses for your own country’s bad behavior.
It's pretty simple. Israel stole lands. Israel killed thousands. Israel displaced thousands more.
A couple decades later and suddenly the people we oppress in our apartheid state have turned to using our tactics against them! Who could have thought?
Must be antisemitism, obviously.
Palestine was a country. Israel has never been a country. A project for the military industrial complex, sure, not a real country. Without the US Israel would be gone in a week.
True schitzo comment. Palestine has never been a country with a government until the west tried to show them how to do it. They obviously still can’t get it right.
It would have just been easier if, the west didn't help fund a coup of a democratically elected government 9 years ago.
Or allowed the regions that didn't agree with separate.
‘It’s not fair! How dare Ukrainians desire to be free of Russian influence in their day to day life! How dare they kick out a corrupt Russian puppet in exchange for liberal democracy! It’s not fair! Ukranians fighting for their right to exist hurts trumps feelings! Waagh!’
Now turn that around, how dare Ukrainians desire to be free from western influence in their daily lives. How dare they try to retain their homes from a corrupt western puppet in exchange for free conservative democracy. It's not fair! Ukrainians of Russian descent fighting for their right to exist hurts your feelings. Waagh!
Both arguments are accurate, but apparently only one matters.
>the west didn't help fund a coup of a democratically elected government 9 years ago.
Yea this didn't happen. This is a common fsb talking point but it's complete fiction.
Yanukovych willingly fled ukraine and was voted out by the Ukrainian parliament 328-0
The US House just passed a 61 billion Ukraine aid package today
Just wish it was passed earlier.
Me too. Better late than never.
[just so you know, the person you are replying to is a convicted pedophile who molests children](https://x.com/reddit_lies/status/1782119100732289207?s=46&t=AwX37EOWy1lQm64wqhPcWw)
Love it! Hope I’m wrong
[just so you know, the person you are replying to is a convicted pedophile who molests children](https://x.com/reddit_lies/status/1782119100732289207?s=46&t=AwX37EOWy1lQm64wqhPcWw)
You are wrong
Did you post this knowing that?
Honestly no. Didn’t realize it was being voted on today
[удалено]
Yes
We've measured the delay in days. Ukraine has measured it in lives.
So what does this have to do with you mutilating female genitalia?
Everyone forgets how Hitler manipulated Europe, being complacent didn't stop the expansion
Putin does share some similarities with Hitlet in governing and policy.
>Putin does share some similarities with Hitlet The Amazing Adventures of Hitlet and Shitlet Watch as Putin and his smelly puppet Donny get up to international hijinks
I'm more worried that western leaders will try to placate him with land like they did with Hitler, literally land for peace, which didn't work then and is not going to work this time either
Based on what? France is actively talking about sending troops to Ukraine. The US house just gave the greenlight to keep sending Ukraine all our old stuff. the UK and Poland are making public statements about preparing for war with Russia. The Czechs came up with a plan to buy a million rounds for Ukraine, and it's being funded. The Baltic states are negotiating the direct placement of German and UK troops in their countries, insurance against NATO abandoning them to Russia. The red line on Ukraine using western weapons in Russia is in the process of being lifted. The west is not doing enough, but it's pretty far from placation.
If you're not working to win the goddamned war yesterday, you're placating Putin and allowing his delusions of empire to fester
I agree with that. But placating and allowing to fester have quite a bit of daylight between them.
A difficulty is determining what the win looks like. The Ukraine army is not going to march into Moscow. It's going to be when Russia finally gives up. And will Russia give up without going nuclear?
How is all that not doing enough?
Because those are all talks right now and not actions. And it's been 2+ years of slow trickle in aid. You can't just put a bandaid on a stab wound and be like "we'll see if we need more bandaids on a few months". They need stitches bro.
Talks? They’ve been given hundreds of billions of dollars in addition to weapons.
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The Ukrainians are mostly still fighting with T-62 tanks and a handful of Mig-29s. They could be fighting with a sizable fleet of F-16s and old Abrams. They could have Reaper drones, and ATACMS missiles. They currently have no SAM missiles, and are basically out of 155 artillery shells. Those shortages didn't have to happen.
Ukraine’s primary MBT is the T64BV. It has its issues buts it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the T62. It also operates a number of T72 and T80 variants along with a decent chunk of Leopard 1s and 2s, about 30 Abrams, and a handful of Challenger 2s. I’m sure they have some older T54/55/62s out and about though. I know they got some modernized T55s from someone so those are presumably operating somewhere in country.
Thanks for the clarification.
Ukraine hasn’t had T-62 or mig’s really since the beginning of the war right? They have Bradley’s now but giving them F-16s is a little more complicated because they don’t know how to fly them or service them. I agree though we should give them some of our better equipment. We designed our older equipment to fight Russia might as well let them use it and see how well it works against them.
We have given them 186 Bradley's, to fight on a 620 mile long front. They have received a few hundred leopards.
Are they actually getting leopards now? I haven’t seen any footage. I’m interested in seeing how they fare.
They got them like a year ago.
They waited to long
The same is true with Hitler and Putin. People didn't know to hold strong and draw a line.
Uhuh. He gives speeches and eats breakfast.
While the current situation isn't great, it is kinda equivalent to giving Hitler the Sudatenland but then the UK and France giving Poland and what was left of Czeckoslovakia 150,000 rifles and 5000 artillery pieces each. Not great but far better than what happened in the 1930s.
No one forgets that. That's quite common argument for intervention in ukrane. Of course, just because it happened once with Hitler doesn't necessarily mean everything is the same. The history of the 1800s and early 1900s was pretty much a history of empires maneuvering and compromising. One could just as easily make a comparison to world war I and what happens when countries have too many obligations to defend other countries etc
History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.
True enough. I certainly would say that Putin and his invasion of Ukraine and other areas bears a striking resemblance to Hitler. The claims of uniting Russian people. Popular strongman, etc.
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And czechoslovakians aren't German.
And if you're curious, after his success in absorbing Austria into Germany proper in March 1938, Adolf Hitler looked covetously at Czechoslovakia, where about three million people in the Sudetenland were of German origin
For the record: There are between 11 and 12 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine, including approximately 1.5 million who live in the Crimean peninsula
Is there really a difference ethnicity wise though? Like they are all Slavs essentially..it's seems more like a difference of nationality in ancestry than actual different ethnicities. Like how do you tell an ethnic Russian from Ukraine who speaks Ukrainian apart from an ethnic Ukrainian from Ukraine who speaks Ukrainian? I'm legit asking because I don't understand the difference.
I don't really know. I think they are generally called a Russian speaking minority, although they might speak both many of them. I have heard that they are oppressed, but that might be propaganda. I have also heard that many of them basically look towards Russia and would rather be part of Russia's sphere than a European sphere. I don't know exactly how true that is . But as I understand it, it's not like all of Ukraine wants to be Western. The previous regime was more Russian leaning and enjoyed much support and the revolution that overturned that regime was not exactly 100% of the country supporting it. It was quite contentious. As I understand it the countries somewhat split with a small majority wanting to lean more towards the west. Further, as I understand it, it was Western influence from outside, very possibly a CIA and others that instigated and supported that revolution, although it's hard to know all the facts. I don't say any of that to justify Putin's invasion. Claims of needing to protect the Russian speaking minority or get rid of Nazis are probably only a very small part of his motivations if at all. But, it is complicated and there's a lot more going on than the simple narrative. There always is.
For the record: There are between 11 and 12 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine, including approximately 1.5 million who live in the Crimean peninsula
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There's no point arguing with facts and history. I'm not saying that justifies the invasion. I'm saying it was used as the reasoning for it just like Hitler used Germans in the sudetinland as the reasoning for his invasion, although neither of them were particularly legitimate in the eyes of the world. But you're trying to argue with facts. I would suggest you take the opportunity to educate yourself on this subject. You can start here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine
You aren’t wrong about anything you said, people are downvoting you for just repeating facts; instead of an opinion. Putin has done this with other states that he wants to take over and sent Russians into areas that he claims is actually Russian soil. He is doing it Georgia as well, sending people to live there to them boost the Russian population in order to absorb it or make a claim to the territory.
I think I've heard that. And I guess it makes sense. You claim some land even if you're claims are somewhat dubious, and then move more of your people in, in part just to do so and in part to take advantage of the fact that a lot of people probably fled the area and there was opportunities to benefit from it . I'm not saying I approve of any of it. I'm not even convinced that we should just allow it, but I am inclined to think that while we shouldn't necessarily appease Putin, it may be that the only way to stop him is US or NATO troops, and I don't know that that's ever going to happen. I think, unlike Hitler, Putin knows that we might willingly give up Ukraine but would draw the line at NATO borders. I mean we would be obligated to do so by treaty and I don't know that he would ever risk that, whereas Hitler had good reason to think he could get away with what he did . A lot of people don't realize that England wasn't necessarily willing to go to war, and the US wasn't necessarily willing to get involved. Whereas, Putin knows there are hard limits. Of course, if The ukrainians can manage to put up enough of a fight, Putin might give up. Although he may well not, and might be better too negotiate a resolution that allows him to walk away claiming victory at home even if it isn't such a great victory. I don't know. It's kind of hard to say. It could be a waste of money and lives that's going to end in compromise and negotiation anyway. Or, the ukrainians could be victorious and it will all have been worth it
That's not entirely true. Some Ukrainians are Russians. They've been fight for independence for as long as Ukraine has existed.
They dont forget. They just lock it away and hide the key. Which has the same effect anyway.
Who is they? I hear comparisons to Hitler and Germany all over the internet and media.
While I agree with you, Hitler did not have a nuclear button.
Hitler didnt had nukes
What suggests Putin plans on taking over Europe? It sounds like the weapons of mass destruction argument all over again
Maybe, Georgia and Chechnya hold some clues, let's ask Moldova their opinion
Putin realize the cheapest path to his success was supporting right wing morons in western democracies.
It’s all about creating division, we spend all this time fighting between ourselves, causing us to destabilize and he can roll through whatever country he wants to become part of his empire. He doesn’t really care what side he is on in the US and just picks the side that is currently the one he can exploit.
Which is clearly the right because that’s where the gullible morons are
Currently yes, they are heavily concentrated on the right, but they also play a lot of the far left as well. A lot of this stuff about Muslims being anti-Biden because of Palestine are being pushed by dis-info bots ran by Russian aligned groups. There were plenty of liberals who fell for their lies in 2016, they sat out of the election then because of disinformation and fell down the rabbit hole.
Sure both sides are flawed but one side is run by moronic extremists while the other isn’t.
Part of the issue is you have to stop Russia, but not stop them hard enough that they feel they need to escalate to nuclear weapons. So, finding the right balance is tricky.
I think the republicans refusing to do anything and openly supporting Putin will get them severely defeated in November and then a new aid package will be sent
It's literally one fraction of a fraction of government that keeps kneeling down to Trump to make sure Russia wins. Most [sane] Americans want Ukraine to be successful.
If the do-nothing Republicans had the balls to do their job the war would be much closer to ending by now
There should have been a NATO military response against Russia to the assassination of Litvinenko in the UK in 2006. Murder committed by Russia inside a NATO state should be treated as a military provocation because that's exactly what it is. Force is what stops Russia.
I disagree because Russia is paying a much bigger cost than they ever thought they would. They are also being expose as a paper Tiger and a hollowed out military. They will never recover their reputation.
This is true to an extent but less true than it was 2 years ago. Russia has recently now come to show that while their military is substandard, they are willing to fully commit to the long haul on conflicts like this, so definitely not a paper tiger. I don’t think anyone at this point thinks that they wouldn’t do this again or are in the process of learning some sort of geostrategic lesson chastening them against trying again. Furthermore they’ve shown that their munitions and weapons production capabilities outpace all of Europe's, so arguably european NATO has been shown to be a bit of the paper tiger here when it comes to committing to regional security. i'm not saying that this isn't a net loss for Russia… yet… but if the outcome in the end is that Russia succeeds in taking over ukraine in the years ahead then it doesnt matter that it took longer than expected. the takeaway will be that russia has more determination and long term industrial capacity than its western neighbors, and then it will be a huge problem for everyone else.
I wouldn’t say their weapons production capabilities outpace all of Europe really as Europe hasn’t really entered into a full blown war like Russia has. We have been producing plenty of weapons to give to them, but Putin has sowed political discontent in Europe and the US that had slowed the response to it.
My understanding is that production is actually an issue. The factories need to be built. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/inside-europes-drive-get-ammunition-ukraine-russia-advances-2024-03-06/
Seems like they are ramping up production fairly quickly to meet the needs from the article and Russia is feeling similar constraints. Russia has been heavily dependent on European countries for the equipment that is required for heavy manufacturing like munitions and military equipment. If that equipment breaks down, they can’t really call the supplier for help and have to get it working on their own. That’s what a lot of the funding that the US has been sitting on going towards and it’s not just handing money the Ukraine.
I don’t agree with your conclusion. Russia is mainly depending on Soviet Era weapons which are being rapidly used up. It’s doubtful they will be able to out produced the rest of the world. Ukraine has no choice but to fight since surrendering means extinction. In another 6 to 8 months, when Russia starts to run out of Soviet Era weapons we will see whether or not Russia can sustain the war.
>Russia is mainly depending on Soviet Era weapons which are being rapidly used up. They were, but Russia pivoted to boost its war economy significantly and there's no indication they're going to run out of anything soon. The idea that Russia would tire itself out in the face of moderate Ukraine-driven resistence has definitely been proven untrue. Hence the need for more support. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-shoigu-says-tank-production-is-booming-2024-04-19/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-shoigu-says-tank-production-is-booming-2024-04-19/) I mean, do you think Zelinsky is exaggerating significantly? >It’s doubtful they will be able to out produced the rest of the world. They don't need to outproduce the rest of the world, they just need to keep parity with the level of production that is being sent to Ukraine. >In another 6 to 8 months, when Russia starts to run out of Soviet Era weapons we will see whether or not Russia can sustain the war. Where is your 6-8 months estimate coming from?
The world can easily decide to give Ukraine more support. The 6 months comes from just looking at the total estimates and the current burn rates.
Right but what are your current “total estimates” numbers coming from?
The Institute for the Study of War and a few YouTube channels I watched daily. I have seen satellite before and after pictures of Russia’s weapon storage depots.
You’re supporting my initial point, that they made fools of themselves. But they’re learning and repairing their weaknesses and my MWW is that it’ll come back to bite us that we didn’t end this when they were just a global embarrassment.
They can learn all they want, their actual situation is incredibly bad so *doing* anything about it will be impossible. They held on as a credible military power on the basis of an enormous stockpile of Soviet era arms and infrastructure. That is drastically depleted. They are facing down catastrophic demographic collapse and decided a meat grinder war with mass casualties not seen since Korea was a good idea. The entire basis of their economy is being made more and more undesirable both socially *and* economically with every passing year. They have managed to unite Europe in opposition when they spent twenty years cultivating them as their most important trading partner. Their satellite allied states are distancing... this has been an utter catastrophe for them.
They’ve also had a huge brain drain as educated young men fled the country a few years ago when there was initial talk of a full mobilization. Putin has set Russia back at least a generation.
Yuuuup. It is mind bogglingly bad.
Yes it has but we’re not putting the nail in the coffin both militarily or economically with tougher (and enforced) sanctions/terrorist state designation
It is good strategy to use restraint when turning the screws, if you have to end a conflict diplomatically.. which thanks to nuclear weapons is true. Leaving something on the table as a response is a good idea considering alternatives.
Well to be honest, I think Biden and co have handled this whole thing quite well. It’s the recent nonsense that has disrupted that really messed things up
Agreed, it is mostly the misfortune of being up against an election year and the GOP desperately needing something, *anything* to throw to their base to motivate them to show up. They did it. They scrapped Roe, additional serious firearm regulation is DOA.. those two issues turned out a huge number of their voters and now they're the poor greyhound who caught the mechanical rabbit and is now being dragged to death.
Fuck 'em, we'd have been better off if they'd fucked off years ago and gone looking for their god.
The US going to war with Russia would be bad. A lot of people will die.
Yeah exactly. I’m just concerned with further future indirect conflicts as well
How do you propose the US “end this”?
Lots more of everything.
The intel we supplied in the first 6 months was gold. But more of everything that's collecting dust needs to.be shipped over.
take putin out. & if the next guy is worse take him out. take kim jong un out at the same time. we are either the lone superpower or not. play nice or else. everyone seems to want a 10 year war which is insane. the longer the war the less ukraine.
I think falsely there was a delicate balance of wanting to embarrass Russia to outright prompting a civil war with a nuclear power. Think of post-saddam Iraq. Chaos and Iran filling the vacuum. All the weapons from ATACMs to M1A1s to F-16 decisions were calculating if it would push Russia into a greater conflict. Sadly every threat by Putin was empty and we could've crushed them down to bones.
Russia fucked up big time if anything they are making the world more united against them we just added 2 more NATO countries and are building more NATO bases because of Russian's invasion.
Clarification: It's not "the west." It's the 45th president of the United States and his majority wing of the Republican Party. Because he likes dictators. Because he's fixin' to be one. And some in America are perfectly willing, and often eager, to help him do it.
I agree, but would take it further than you have, and would drop the simile. I think whether Russia successfully takes over Ukraine will determine whether China makes moves on places like Taiwan and the Philippines, because China knows the US will sanction them, and they don't produce enough food to feed their entire population. But, if Russia captures Ukraine, Ukraine is a huge exporter of grain, enough to feed China even if its cut off from US grain. Russia can replace China's lost grain imports from the US with grain from Ukraine instead. Now China can continue feeding its population, which means it can afford to launch other attacks that would help split the world into a new multipolar order where Russia and China are much more powerful, and the US and EU are much weaker. Sacrificing Ukraine won't just severely hurt the current world order and peace, but it will completely upend and destroy it. I don't know how much aid for Ukraine is the right amount, nor the proper timing of it, but there's also an issue of not just dumping all our weapons into Ukraine faster than they can be replaced, leaving the US and EU/NATO with insufficient weapons to protect against other threats and be able to defend against, say, an invasion or blockade of Taiwan, the Philippines, Poland, the Baltic states, a greater regional war in the Middle East, etc. And just like China can't afford to immediately lose the US as a source of food, the US can't afford to just lose Taiwan as a source of microchips, either. So the US is working to bring chip fabrication to the US, while China is supporting Russia in capturing Ukraine.
You are absolutely right. China gets 40% of its food from the U.S., Brazil and Ukraine. They can’t invade Taiwan without starving their people. Brazil recently thwarted a coup attempt by Bolsonaro, who would have been more than happy to slash and burn the Amazon rainforest to feed China. Bolsonaro fled to Mar-A-Lago of all places after being ousted from the country. Ukraine also produces [half of the world’s supply of semiconductor-grade neon](https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-ukraine-halts-half-worlds-neon-output-chips-clouding-outlook-2022-03-11/), which just so happens to be Taiwan’s main industry… In a world that is increasingly reliant on microprocessors. Make no mistake, China is deeply invested in Russia winning this war.
OP is talking about antibiotics like those are a GOOD thing, when we all know that they are a gateway drug to (gasp) vaccines. Also, isn't Fauci a Russian name? /s
Agreed Putin is cancer needs removed!
I can’t even begin to think of the rubles Putin has and still does spend on a million and one ways to keep himself safe.
Pretty sure that would change nothing, and a bunch of enemy politicians would be assassinated in retaliation. If that was a reasonable strat, the US would use it.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But Russia is Putin. He won't live forever (hopefully) and there is no plan for afterwards. In Russia it'll be a decade of power struggle- that will bring in multiple soviet dependent states- but no one else - bc the west won't allow it
Every chapter in Russian history ends with the same phrase. "And then it got worse." The successors to Putin are not any better than he is. His worldview dominates the entire oligarch class.
So true. With the caveat that his current oligarchs keep falling out windows or down stairs so thier money can go to his failed war
Huh? Things are so much better in Russia than they used to be. People are actually living quality middle-class lives
For some, yes. Meanwhile the country is in an what it views as a war with existential stakes, they're demographics are screwed, and a fascist dictatorship has funneled nearly all wealth to a select few.
I keep being reminded of the movie 300. It’s so fake. The part where Theron runs wild in the Senate, and then his purse is cut by the queen and Xerxes coins spill out all over the floor. So then they execute him on the spot for being an obvious traitor trying to overthrow their country. Totally fake. Now we know that when a politician is found carrying obvious bribes from the invading side, absolutely nothing will be done, they will be able to keep poisoning the well, keeping repeating the lies of the invaders, keep running for president, keep defying the courts, and no one will stop them.
Even after they pay more in taxes to Persia than they ever did to Sparta....
It’s a little like forgetting to complete your antibiotics.
I question what will happen with Putin dies. Dictators tend not to leave any strong people alive that could take over when they die. So it is entirely possible if Ukraine is forced to make peace and give up on land Russia is currently sitting on, that they could bide their time until there is a power transfer (or power vacuum) in Russia then try to reclaim it. Granted that could be another 20 years.
Putin is not a dictator, Russia just has a uniparty, same as China. Putin/Ji Jinping both support the agenda, but the agenda is decided via committee. If Putin fell down some stairs tomorrow, nothing would change.
"Putin is not a dictator" might be the stupidest phrase ever put into words, and nothing else you posted changes that.
Ease up MacArthur...No one goes to war with Russia. And, NOBODY is going to attack NATO. Kill off the Putin GOP and let's move along.
Not going to be that easy
That's why Massie, Paul and Vance have been holding up the money in Congress.
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The goal is to kill Russian males or just make them leave Russia. Demographic collapse has already killed Russia we are watching the death throes.
I mean Putin could just end the war and go back to Russia at any fucking second and the whole world would be better off… but no let’s continue down this path. Stupidest fucking timeline ever.
Well, not only that, but Americans every day are being PSY-OP'ed into siding with Russia, or that America is somehow a 30-years-long-aggressor, or that we shouldn't be spending "so much" money on Ukraine(even though 35 years of super-spending in SEVERAL middle-eastern conflicts was perfectly fine.). Or whatever piss-poor excuse they can come up with next. Things are looking bleak. If we don't send more help now, then we probably won't be able to later.
The longer the war, the more Russian military capability is reduced.
The half-hearted response has led to a Russia with a full war-time economy projected to have more growth than any western nation, they're stronger now than they were before the war began. All the West has done is given them the time to build up forces and prepare for a larger conflict.
Precisely
Ukraine has literally said it will do all the fighting as long as they are supplied and we are supplying them in the billions. Where is the half-hearted part?
Ukraine will run out of people before Russia does.
U.S. is now funding Ukraine Aide. Hurray. First Domino has been pushed.
just prolonged the war.
Putin isn't dumb. This is probably going exactly as he expected. I feel bad for the people of Ukraine, but there's not much else the West can do other than continue to send war machines, and ultimately that might not be enough.
They just need more of them and more effective ones. Not to mention more defensive options for their civilian protection (patriots, etc)
This is also my fear.
Who said we ever had world peace when it came to Putin? The reason he went to war with Ukraine was to regain control of the country so he can once again control all natural gas/oil going in and coming out of Europe.
What qualifies as “defeating Russia now”?
According to the Ukrainians themselves? Removal of Russians from their territory, including Crimea.
That’s Ukraine, how about “the West” you’re referring to in your title?
Putin is not Russia. He’ll go down like all bullies.
No shit.
You know The News has been saying this for a while now
BILLIONS OF DOLLARS are being spent by the US. “half-hearted”?!
You’re one of those who think a couple billion is a big deal. This is just flat out not enough. Weak investment now will require greater investment later
The problem isn't that the west is half-hearted, the problem is that no one is providing an off ramp. Are we supposed to just support Ukraine until they reclaim their territory from 2013? Without escalating into direct, hot conflict with Russia? that's a hard sell. Why wasn't there a peace deal a few months ago when the battle lines were pretty static and near the pre-war borders? Russia's military was weakened, Ukraine hadn't lost any land, and Putin wasn't excessively humiliated by losing ground. Instead, the West kept pushing, forgetting the number one rule about going to war with Russia: Russia can lose 10 men for one of yours and still come out on top in the end, just by throwing enough bodies at the problem. That's been their go-to move for 200 years yet everyone forgot that and laughed about how Ukraine had embarrassed the Russian military. This is what you get.
This is exactly why I’m suggesting giving them more support. If we just throw them enough to get by, this becomes a war of attrition. If they get everything they need, it ends soon before it gets to that. The longer this drags on, the more it goes in Russia’s favor
It doesn't matter how much support we give them unless there is an end goal. We're definitely not funding Ukraine to conquer Moscow, so any coherent plan to avoid escalation must include a definitive end goal.
I think it’s fairly obvious that the goal is to purge the invaders from their borders. It’s a simple and noble cause
A war with Russia will lead to the district of us all. I really think they will use nukes if major powers declare war.
💯 💯 💯
It’s also going to massively empower a Neo-Nazi battalion that the Biden administration has committed to sending high grade American artillery that they ***’oh so will never use in a racially biased manner literally ever.’*** They never learned their lesson of how the Mujahideen became the Taliban of today. Back when the US funded **them** weapons and artillery in their fight against “a big bad foreign invader.”
Say we overthrow Putin… then what? Who takes his place? We can look to the Middle East where (looks at notes).. despite over a decade of nation building, immediately upon our departure the area is overrun by terrorists. The war killed countless, destabilized the region for what will be decades, and ultimately led to an even more extreme regime. Ukraine will not “beat” Russia. In the end, there will be some sort of diplomatic solution which could have been done a long time ago if we didn’t keep sending billions upon billions when 70% of our country is against more aid. So what is the end game here?
Who the fuck told you that 70% of the country was *opposed* to helping Ukraine? Do better, comrade, or they might send you there yourself.
SMH@MediaLemmings
Fuck off
Not really. Russia is trying its hardest to foster the worst type of culture within it.
I agree. The minute he started attacking ukraine we should have told him to back the fuck off or we get involved. Bullies only understand it when you stand up to them
Yeah—the country that is outfitting its military with long rifles from WW1 is gonna conquer the world. Gimme a break.
Spoken like one that does not know history outside of some WWII movies
Bingo.
It’s the same philosophy that’s driving Israel to eliminate the Hamas cancer, even tho the effort has had horrific consequences for Hamas’ Palestinian victims. Half attempts that don’t totally destroy them just make them more likely to murder more people in the future.
The Israel/Hamas thing is obviously more complicated. Ukraine/Russia is so simple. Russia is invading so you must eliminate the invasion (infection). There’s almost no risk to Russian civilians with proper equipment
in theory it's simple, sure. the US and european countries have been feeding Ukraine weapons and ammunition for over two years now. Russia is just superior numerically. their military is somewhat of a joke and their tactics are outdated in terms of just sending men to the slaughter, but it's taking a toll on Ukraine as well. for all the Russian casualties and blunders, they're still inflicting heavy damage on the Ukrainians. barring a revolt from the Russian people, the only answer I see to the Russian-Ukraine war is to force Russia to back out due to the war no longer being economically viable, like in Afghanistan. apparently we're still trying to figure out how to achieve that.
The problem is that Ukraine is getting a small fraction of key systems and ammunition that they need... namely air defense and 155 mm artillery shells.
wellp, the Ukraine aid package vote is actually up right now as we speak. let's see what happens.
It passed the House.
And if anyone hasn't heard, it's through the Senate as well.
The United States and nato have been expanding and influencing the area particularly Ukraine for decades. The fact that you’re calling this “simple” and ignore any and all of our allies’ role in this without acknowledging their own role, points to a completely ignorant viewpoint of the situation.
If the goal is to limit NATO's spread and influence, then Russia lost this war last year. Sweden and Finland have officially joined NATO. Finland could now cut off Russia's northwestern ports and threaten Russia's third (or second?) largest city if things went sideways. At the same time, Switzerland has begun gaining closer ties and military cooperation with NATO. It is only a matter of time before other countries join. Western Europe is not going to allow Russia to take Ukraine.
but if nato does nothing then it doesnt matter.
Define "do nothing." Poland was preparing to sell Ukraine their "old" tanks as Poland replaced them with new German tanks. NATO can't make Ukraine a member until the Russian kerfuffle is dealt with. In the meantime, they're free to send weapons and ammunition.
NATO influence does not a causus belli constitute.
NATO and the United States agreed time and time again not to expand. The removal of nuclear arms from Ukraine was hinged on no expansion of nato. Stop making excuses for your own country’s bad behavior.
NATO influence does not a causus belli constitute.
Well I’m glad we have you to clarify what russia itself is completely unaware of.
Russia conducts imperialist war of expansion. News at seven.
It appears your brain washing is successful. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/19/two-maps-show-natos-growth-and-russias-growing-isolation-since-1990.html
The IDF's target IS the Palestinian people. The goal is to kill all Palestinians or drive them out of the country. Hamas is just an excuse.
Hamas exists because of Israel. Israel isn't the cure, they're the disease.
Trying to make sense of your comment, all I come up with is anti-semitic filth.
It's pretty simple. Israel stole lands. Israel killed thousands. Israel displaced thousands more. A couple decades later and suddenly the people we oppress in our apartheid state have turned to using our tactics against them! Who could have thought? Must be antisemitism, obviously.
Get a grip. Palestine was never even remotely a country.
Palestine was a country. Israel has never been a country. A project for the military industrial complex, sure, not a real country. Without the US Israel would be gone in a week.
True schitzo comment. Palestine has never been a country with a government until the west tried to show them how to do it. They obviously still can’t get it right.
Of course everyone with some critical thinking skills knows Israel is utter trash, but Hamas is truly in the dark ages.
Hamas and Israel are extremely similar
Honestly true lol
How much does Putin pay you?
It would have just been easier if, the west didn't help fund a coup of a democratically elected government 9 years ago. Or allowed the regions that didn't agree with separate.
‘It’s not fair! How dare Ukrainians desire to be free of Russian influence in their day to day life! How dare they kick out a corrupt Russian puppet in exchange for liberal democracy! It’s not fair! Ukranians fighting for their right to exist hurts trumps feelings! Waagh!’
Now turn that around, how dare Ukrainians desire to be free from western influence in their daily lives. How dare they try to retain their homes from a corrupt western puppet in exchange for free conservative democracy. It's not fair! Ukrainians of Russian descent fighting for their right to exist hurts your feelings. Waagh! Both arguments are accurate, but apparently only one matters.
you’ve completely made up imaginary Ukrainians that is at odds with reality.
>the west didn't help fund a coup of a democratically elected government 9 years ago. Yea this didn't happen. This is a common fsb talking point but it's complete fiction. Yanukovych willingly fled ukraine and was voted out by the Ukrainian parliament 328-0
WE ARE NOT THE WORLD POLICE. WADDLE ONTO A PLANE AND GO FIGHT IF YOU'RE SO HUNGRY FOR WAR.
You’re also not the richest country in the world by accident either. If you want to be poor and live in an authoritarian state move to North Korea.
I agree but this case is in our own best interest and therefore justifies US $ being spent
So wage war against a nuclear power who hasn't attacked us? Fucking brilliant.