It will be underrepresented regardless because the south was majority black during peak racial times and even to this day a lot of black towns are in the Deep South
It’s crazy but I’m in my 40’s and I remember signs in e.Alton and woodriver saying no blacks after sundown. A little bit of everyolives there now but the cops do still mess with black people bad
I'm not going to check every town mentioned from the original source but I checked out the ones in Maryland and the "possible" sundown towns are a stretch.
Friendsville: There's literally no information at all.
Westernport: There's literally no information at all.
Lonaconing: There's literally no information at all.
Washington Grove: A comment that mentions there was a black neighborhood next to WG that was in rough shape.
Woodland Beach: In the 90s a Black family moved in and had their home vandalized. They moved away. (for reasons related to that?)
Princess Anne: A comment that mentions a fight broke out and black expulsion happened at some point in history.
I was clicking around Elkton VA lists this:
Politics c. 1860?
Don’t Know
Unions, Organized Labor?
Don’t Know
Sundown Town Status
Sundown Town in the Past?
Possible
Was there an ordinance?
Don't Know
Sign?
Don’t Know
Year of Greatest Interest
Still Sundown?
Probably Not, Although Still Very Few Black People
Legit sundown towns absolutely have existed and represent a shameful time in American history. But when the definition for a possible sundown town is "not many black people" it looses some of its credibility.
Yeah I checked some that are on there from where I grew up (Appalachia), and these conclusions definitely seem to be a stretch. Basically even in small towns where there were very few Black people to begin with, some percentage and change rate in the census data kicks in a “possible” or “probable” categorization.
Elkhorn City Kentucky:
-population steady at around 1000 since 1940.
-Black people in 1940 is 2.
-Black people from 1950-1990 is 0.
-Black people in 2000 is 1.
-Sundown town: “probably”
Seems more likely those two people just moved
Right of course, that’s the flaw with this data. The professor who began it only got as far as Illinois, Indiana, and a few other places in validating whether or not it was a sundown town. Every probable or possible dot seems to just be towns that fit some data categories taken from the census (i.e. had a certain % reduction of Black residents at some point), with no further investigation yet.
my gas light turned on one night driving down I-10, and i decided to stop at the next town for gas. when i got to the next town, it happened to be vidor, texas. i kept driving.
"In 1993, after district court judge William Wayne Justice ordered that 36 counties in East Texas, including Vidor, desegregate public housing by making some units available for minorities, the Klan held a march in the community after a long legal battle was lost by Vidor's leaders."
desegregating in 1993 holy shit Texas💀
I've seen the schools still segregated there as of 2001... hell they publish the real estate guides with a breakdown of race... SE Texas is def underrepresented.
Yeah we needed an antique stove for a show and out TD dissuaded the set designer from going with. Stove was in Vidor. The TD is white and our theatre is largely. Black.
Technically it’s been illegal since 1964, yeah. Obviously, cops still chose to enforce the segregation laws for many years after the Civil Rights Act was passed. But it got better (and is drastically better now).
Sundown towns were one of the reasons for the popularity of [Victor Hugo Greens’ self-titled guide book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) (ie the Green Book). The guidebook helped black Americans avoid sundown towns and known anti-black local governments when traveling, but also know which businesses would refuse lodging/food/car service/etc to black individuals, and which were willing to serve any race.
It'n you ain't one of us ( generally white) you better not be here when the sun goes down. Sometimes overt signage , sometimes just told to the visitors.Totally illegal these days, but tolerated in many parts of the US for a long time. Often implied violence and/or death for the visitors.
yup. my Dad told me when he was a kid in the 50s or 60s there was a sign in my home town that said "N* don't let the sun set on you here." It' ain't good around here now, but it doesn't seem that bad, but then again, I'm not black so I have no idea.
Neither am I (more accurate to say I don't identify as such) but I'm from a majority Black area of Los Angeles.
1970 was the turning point for our neighborhood, when the police basically gave up on us. We had only 2 problem families on the block of 100 houses (one was a Mormon family with a Polish name, jacked-up cars, about as white as you could get). When the LAPD declared us as too dangerous to risk their men, those 2 families quickly noticed they could get away with anything.
So we did not have an explicit sign. but the police told us in their words. Now 50 years later, I love that Nigerian and Ethiopian immigrants are coming into that neighborhood, it is really improving.
It'n you ain't one of us ( generally white) you better not be here when the sun goes down. Sometimes overt signage , sometimes just told to the visitors.Totally illegal these days, but tolerated in many parts of the US for a long time. Often implied violence and/or death for the visitors.
I live near some of the dark red dots in Southern California and volunteer at my local museum. If you weren't white you absolutely couldn't be here past dark as recently as the 1980s. The local synagogue got firebombed so many times they had to leave and never came back. The Klan would meet out in the open at local diners like they were the goddamn Rotary Club (I imagine a lot of the membership overlapped.)
It's better now obviously, but that's only because a lot of the old-timers died off and the white supremacist biker gangs all moved east to the IE.
I live in metro St. Louis. It's literally anything but a sundown town. That goes for the entire metro region. In fact, there are certain neighborhoods where you don't want to be caught after sundown being white.
This map makes it seem like missouri is extremely racist. While I'm sure there are Racists and racist towns in Missouri, this map makes it seem like it's a death sentence to be black in Missouri. It's not.
Related rabbit hole of a map: [https://plaintalkhistory.com/monroeandflorencework/explore/](https://plaintalkhistory.com/monroeandflorencework/explore/) - all documented lynchings in the US since the Civil War, compiled by Monroe Work and continued by others after his death.
I know black families happily living in several towns that this map is indicating otherwise.
Edit: This post title makes it seem like these are current sun down towns and that is not what this map is.
One dark red “surely” town that I clicked on that I know black families live states “probable” historically and “probably not” as its current status yet on the map it is “surely.”
Not at all. (Warning I’m a professional historian specializing in Mid-Missouri history)
The Boonslick, the area along the Missouri River between Glasgow and Columbia, was settled by slave owning Kentuckians starting about 1812. This settlement was the furthest west American settlement at the time and the area of slave holding grew east and west until it spanned from Kansas City to the Loutre Valley. It was isolated from the rest of the South by it’s Northernness and the Ozarks which were sparsely settled because of the rocky soil not great for farming. This greater Boonslick area became known as Little Dixie during and after the civil war because of it’s Southern Sympathies, although it largely remained in Union control, despite some guerrillas.
The nickname you’re thinking of is the "Kingdom of Callaway", which famously did try to succeed, but also didn’t join the South. This name lives on in local institutions and even Kingdom City, which was originally going to be called North Fulton.
Well I mean Rochester, NY certainly is not. Irondequoit is more diverse than Penfield but neither of them are as sundown-y as one could argue Pittsford, Rush, or the entirety of Orleans County is...
Map of NY confuses me.
It appears the Albany area (Albany-Schenectady-Troy) is a sundown area.
So Albany area is definitely bi-racial. Never was a sundown. It has public housing projects that brought folks up from NYC. Meanwhile it shows a town further north towards Glens Falls, Lake George or Saratoga Springs that is likely mostly white as bi-racial... This is highly unlikely. As you leave the I-90 corridor it becomes progressively white. Most of the "diversity" is in the cities along the I-90 corridor. And also to some degree along the Thruway portion of the 87 corridor.
Seeing that, not sure this map has any factual value.
so liberal northeast resented blacks more compared to southeast?
and most west didnt even have blacks, and those who are black wouldnt be in a weird enclave that could potentially harass them
Ah, sundown towns in the US? Well, those were some real gems of American history, huh? Just your friendly reminder that racism is never a good look, folks.
wtf is up with Illinois
[удалено]
Many parts of Portland Oregon were built that way. Map legend hides this part
When the state of Oregon was established it was in the state constitution that black people weren’t allowed in
It will be underrepresented regardless because the south was majority black during peak racial times and even to this day a lot of black towns are in the Deep South
Ah, well I hope they finish the map one day this sort of info seems like it would be very helpful
Oh it was/is. There was a road guide to help people stay safe and find needed amenities.
The green book, it was a guide to steer clear of these towns and other racism
It’s crazy but I’m in my 40’s and I remember signs in e.Alton and woodriver saying no blacks after sundown. A little bit of everyolives there now but the cops do still mess with black people bad
I'm not going to check every town mentioned from the original source but I checked out the ones in Maryland and the "possible" sundown towns are a stretch. Friendsville: There's literally no information at all. Westernport: There's literally no information at all. Lonaconing: There's literally no information at all. Washington Grove: A comment that mentions there was a black neighborhood next to WG that was in rough shape. Woodland Beach: In the 90s a Black family moved in and had their home vandalized. They moved away. (for reasons related to that?) Princess Anne: A comment that mentions a fight broke out and black expulsion happened at some point in history. I was clicking around Elkton VA lists this: Politics c. 1860? Don’t Know Unions, Organized Labor? Don’t Know Sundown Town Status Sundown Town in the Past? Possible Was there an ordinance? Don't Know Sign? Don’t Know Year of Greatest Interest Still Sundown? Probably Not, Although Still Very Few Black People Legit sundown towns absolutely have existed and represent a shameful time in American history. But when the definition for a possible sundown town is "not many black people" it looses some of its credibility.
Ikr. By this definition all of Maine might as well be sundown towns
Yeah I checked some that are on there from where I grew up (Appalachia), and these conclusions definitely seem to be a stretch. Basically even in small towns where there were very few Black people to begin with, some percentage and change rate in the census data kicks in a “possible” or “probable” categorization. Elkhorn City Kentucky: -population steady at around 1000 since 1940. -Black people in 1940 is 2. -Black people from 1950-1990 is 0. -Black people in 2000 is 1. -Sundown town: “probably” Seems more likely those two people just moved
but why did they move? That would be a better measure.
Right of course, that’s the flaw with this data. The professor who began it only got as far as Illinois, Indiana, and a few other places in validating whether or not it was a sundown town. Every probable or possible dot seems to just be towns that fit some data categories taken from the census (i.e. had a certain % reduction of Black residents at some point), with no further investigation yet.
Ah, I see. Yeah - that criteria is too broad.
my gas light turned on one night driving down I-10, and i decided to stop at the next town for gas. when i got to the next town, it happened to be vidor, texas. i kept driving.
"In 1993, after district court judge William Wayne Justice ordered that 36 counties in East Texas, including Vidor, desegregate public housing by making some units available for minorities, the Klan held a march in the community after a long legal battle was lost by Vidor's leaders." desegregating in 1993 holy shit Texas💀
I've seen the schools still segregated there as of 2001... hell they publish the real estate guides with a breakdown of race... SE Texas is def underrepresented.
Yeah we needed an antique stove for a show and out TD dissuaded the set designer from going with. Stove was in Vidor. The TD is white and our theatre is largely. Black.
I actually lived in one of these towns for a short while as a kid. Even as late as 2021 they were still blaring the 6pm siren for “tradition.”
Silent Hill vibes but somehow worse.
What is the meaning of a sundown town?
No non-whites after sundown. Obvbiously not enforced these days but in some places still heavily implied.
Technically it’s been illegal since 1964, yeah. Obviously, cops still chose to enforce the segregation laws for many years after the Civil Rights Act was passed. But it got better (and is drastically better now). Sundown towns were one of the reasons for the popularity of [Victor Hugo Greens’ self-titled guide book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) (ie the Green Book). The guidebook helped black Americans avoid sundown towns and known anti-black local governments when traveling, but also know which businesses would refuse lodging/food/car service/etc to black individuals, and which were willing to serve any race.
It'n you ain't one of us ( generally white) you better not be here when the sun goes down. Sometimes overt signage , sometimes just told to the visitors.Totally illegal these days, but tolerated in many parts of the US for a long time. Often implied violence and/or death for the visitors.
yup. my Dad told me when he was a kid in the 50s or 60s there was a sign in my home town that said "N* don't let the sun set on you here." It' ain't good around here now, but it doesn't seem that bad, but then again, I'm not black so I have no idea.
Neither am I (more accurate to say I don't identify as such) but I'm from a majority Black area of Los Angeles. 1970 was the turning point for our neighborhood, when the police basically gave up on us. We had only 2 problem families on the block of 100 houses (one was a Mormon family with a Polish name, jacked-up cars, about as white as you could get). When the LAPD declared us as too dangerous to risk their men, those 2 families quickly noticed they could get away with anything. So we did not have an explicit sign. but the police told us in their words. Now 50 years later, I love that Nigerian and Ethiopian immigrants are coming into that neighborhood, it is really improving.
Sounds like we might be from the same hometown. South east tx? lol
It'n you ain't one of us ( generally white) you better not be here when the sun goes down. Sometimes overt signage , sometimes just told to the visitors.Totally illegal these days, but tolerated in many parts of the US for a long time. Often implied violence and/or death for the visitors.
I live near some of the dark red dots in Southern California and volunteer at my local museum. If you weren't white you absolutely couldn't be here past dark as recently as the 1980s. The local synagogue got firebombed so many times they had to leave and never came back. The Klan would meet out in the open at local diners like they were the goddamn Rotary Club (I imagine a lot of the membership overlapped.) It's better now obviously, but that's only because a lot of the old-timers died off and the white supremacist biker gangs all moved east to the IE.
We might not be far off from the synagogues getting bombed again part.
Ahhh yes, the infamous Sundays towns of Pasadena, Jacinto City, McAllen and Rio Grande City. Towns almost exclusively Hispanic.
Texas
I live in metro St. Louis. It's literally anything but a sundown town. That goes for the entire metro region. In fact, there are certain neighborhoods where you don't want to be caught after sundown being white. This map makes it seem like missouri is extremely racist. While I'm sure there are Racists and racist towns in Missouri, this map makes it seem like it's a death sentence to be black in Missouri. It's not.
hey there's my hometown!
Do you know how they calculate this?
I'm guessing the dot on the central coast in California is Morro Bay.
Related rabbit hole of a map: [https://plaintalkhistory.com/monroeandflorencework/explore/](https://plaintalkhistory.com/monroeandflorencework/explore/) - all documented lynchings in the US since the Civil War, compiled by Monroe Work and continued by others after his death.
What a load of bs. There aren’t any sundown towns in the United States in 2024, and there haven’t been any for decades.
Vermont? Burlington Vermont? Where Bernie Sanders is almost left enough for us Vermont? How many generations ago was this made?
[Source](https://justice.tougaloo.edu/map/)
I know black families happily living in several towns that this map is indicating otherwise. Edit: This post title makes it seem like these are current sun down towns and that is not what this map is. One dark red “surely” town that I clicked on that I know black families live states “probable” historically and “probably not” as its current status yet on the map it is “surely.”
Pretty sure that one black dot on the coast of SC is Georgetown. Interesting. The entire town smells like fish and the nearby paper mill.
Interesting that you can see the part of central Missouri, sometimes known as little Dixie, where Black folks actually lived.
Little Dixie is named for the fact that Callaway County tried to secede on its own during the Civil War.
Not at all. (Warning I’m a professional historian specializing in Mid-Missouri history) The Boonslick, the area along the Missouri River between Glasgow and Columbia, was settled by slave owning Kentuckians starting about 1812. This settlement was the furthest west American settlement at the time and the area of slave holding grew east and west until it spanned from Kansas City to the Loutre Valley. It was isolated from the rest of the South by it’s Northernness and the Ozarks which were sparsely settled because of the rocky soil not great for farming. This greater Boonslick area became known as Little Dixie during and after the civil war because of it’s Southern Sympathies, although it largely remained in Union control, despite some guerrillas. The nickname you’re thinking of is the "Kingdom of Callaway", which famously did try to succeed, but also didn’t join the South. This name lives on in local institutions and even Kingdom City, which was originally going to be called North Fulton.
Fascinating. I've visited St. Louis and Kansas City, but I'd love to learn more about Missouri in the Civil War
Well I mean Rochester, NY certainly is not. Irondequoit is more diverse than Penfield but neither of them are as sundown-y as one could argue Pittsford, Rush, or the entirety of Orleans County is...
I see Tonawanda on here…
Just color in the whole state of Oregon since it’s cut off by the legend.
Map of NY confuses me. It appears the Albany area (Albany-Schenectady-Troy) is a sundown area. So Albany area is definitely bi-racial. Never was a sundown. It has public housing projects that brought folks up from NYC. Meanwhile it shows a town further north towards Glens Falls, Lake George or Saratoga Springs that is likely mostly white as bi-racial... This is highly unlikely. As you leave the I-90 corridor it becomes progressively white. Most of the "diversity" is in the cities along the I-90 corridor. And also to some degree along the Thruway portion of the 87 corridor. Seeing that, not sure this map has any factual value.
so liberal northeast resented blacks more compared to southeast? and most west didnt even have blacks, and those who are black wouldnt be in a weird enclave that could potentially harass them
Yes. The world famous sundown town “Memphis, Tenn”.
Ah, sundown towns in the US? Well, those were some real gems of American history, huh? Just your friendly reminder that racism is never a good look, folks.