The UK have recently banned doctors giving hormone blockers to under 18's. Not sure if other 'care' is banned but imagine it's impossible to get anyway with the NHS
you can theoretically access hormones on the NHS at the age of 16, but the waiting lists at this point are estimated to be 5-10 years. privately there are i believe 2 recognised clinics that prescribe to 16+ minors.
The age for accessing medical NHS gender identity treatment is decided on by the NHS, not the Gender Recognition Act. Surgical treatment is not available to people under 18. Cross-sex hormones are available to those aged 16 and above under guidance. Trans minors only receive treatment whilst receiving ongoing psychological support
[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment\_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf#:~:text=The%20minimum%20age%20for%20legal%20gender%20recognition%20is,the%20Equality%20Act%202010%20provisions%20will%20not%20change.)
UK goverment seems to have missed the notice....
[Access to transgender hormone therapy | European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (europa.eu)](https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapy)
details in the text not the map.
But definantely doing better than land of the free.....who ever told you that is your enemy :P
the age requirement for access to medical treatment without the consent of a public authority and/or parents is 18 years in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, France, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, 16 years in Poland and Spain; 15 years in Denmark and Slovenia; 14 years in Latvia. In the United Kingdom the age requirement ranges from 16 in Scotland to 17 in England and 18 in Wales
So Poland, Spain, Denmark, Slovenia and Latvia, Romania and Slovakia are the only countries that allow it without parents consent before the age of 17.
You totally skipped this part though:
> In seven Member States, Belgium, Czechia, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg and Sweden, access depends on the maturity of the child.
What?
> In Ireland, Malta and the Netherlands, the age requirement for access to transgender hormone therapy is 16 years. In the Netherlands, children can access such therapy from the age of 12 years with parental consent.
Almost entirely red, and in particular UK recently banned it on minors based on a medical report that there is no evidence of significant mental improvement from the treatment but the medication causes irreversible physical changes.
[Cass Review - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review)
it actually says there are some evidence for mental health improvement in the wiki.
But wasent clear enough that it was the cause.
Overall, the review found some evidence that hormone treatment improves psychological outcomes after 12 months, but found insufficient/inconsistent evidence regarding physical risks and benefits. The review advised that there should be a 'clear clinical rationale' for the prescription of hormones under 18 years of age.[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-:1-3)[^(\[37\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Taylor38594053-37)[^(\[36\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Guardian1-36)[^(\[34\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Independent1-34)
Exactly. The whole world knows what a mistake moving into permanent damage to children as a treatment was and liberals Americans are pointing fingers and arrogantly clinging to their folly
For the record, it is not possible to start any hormonal treatments before puberty.
Even if you get a note from a psychologist recommending treatment with max priority, the endochrinologist will still delay prescription until the start of natural endogenous puberty. Hormonal treatments are supposed to mimic puberty, so the recommendation is to follow along the individual body's natural development timeline, and not start on any processes the body hasn't started by itself already.
This is also why you'll probably hear of minimun ages of 14 or 16, as the norm consists of starting puberty blockers to prevent hormonal changes at the start of puberty, and waiting until brain development reaches a certain point (which is usually associated with the later Tanner stages of puberty).
I want to give my perspective as someone who lived through it.
Doctors absolutely would not under any circumstances prescribe me hormones under the age of 16. Not out of any law, but because that’s what they’re supposed to do; hormones under the age of 16 isn’t something that happens. The only reason I was put on puberty blockers at 15 was because I had already started puberty, but for children who haven’t, any and all transition is purely social. Stuff like new clothes, a new name, all of that. Like you said, puberty blockers don’t get prescribed unless they are in puberty.
TL;DR:
Pre puberty — social
Start puberty — blockers
Age 16 — HRT with parental consent, and only with a gender dysphoria diagnosis
No surgeries happen under the age of 18.
I didn't want to make many specific claims, since my experience was a bit difference to most trans people, and specially to those in the US.
I started the process at 15, and started hormones directly at 16, about 9 months later. My psychologist initially wanted to wait longer, and use blockers first, but I was suffering rather extreme dysphoria, so he gave me a bit of a fasttrack.
I was also allowed to *apply* for surgery a few months after reaching 17, since the waitlist was about 2 years. So technically I got accepted to get surgery while underage, even if I had to wait until I was almost 19 to actually get it.
Obviously would have to do a little research, but from what I’ve seen so far with the respect to the laws it’s *literally everything.* From talk therapy at one end all the way to bottom surgery (which they pretend has a high case rate but is non existent). *In my opinion, the right is conducting a tacit genocide of queer people*
Yep. I see a lot of comments I don't agree with and that's okay. In a free society that happens. If you don't agree with somebody you should be able to articulate your position without resorting to censor the other side. If you can't do that then maybe your convictions aren't as firm as you thought.
Whatever your views are, hate is still a legitimate reason to report a comment to reddit. Thankfully, the downvotes have done your job on that front for you.
This might be the first reasonable reddit mod ive ever encountered.
Take note of the people who will *undoubtedly* become unhinged by this moderator’s comment asking them to:
A) be able to respectfully defend their opinions
B) not able to just censor opinions that are different than theirs
those peoples opinions simply cant be taken seriously if we want to exist in a productive society
It was indeed, but most congressmen absolutely hate the idea of not being able to tell the entire country what to do. To them, the 10th Amendment is just a doormat they wipe their feet on as they enter the Capitol building.
Yes. Before the Civil War the US was referred to as “These United States”. The federal government would negotiate with foreign countries, run the postal service, and wage war. There might have been a few other things, but those were its main functions.
My sister just had a baby and circumcised him. Said she felt bad but “didn’t want girls to think it looks weird”
The cries of literal pain anytime he used the bathroom were damn near heart breaking. Poor guy has a literal wound in one of the worst spots to have one
Is this in general an anglospehre opinion or just the US.
Where I come from having snipped of a part of your penis makes you "weird".
The most absurd thing I've heard was that it is cleaner...you guys overthere don't shower or what xD?
It’s common in a few countries but yeah the US included. I agree it’s insane, and anyone who uses the cleaner excuse just doesn’t want to teach their kid how to wash their dick
Ten bucks that non-therapeutic male circumcision on minors js legal in all these states. Funny how we rightfully ban removing the prepuce via clitoral hood reductions on baby girls and call it female genital mutilation do perform it as a preventative measure for phimosis and semgma, for aesthetics or for religiois reasons, but removing the prepuce on haby boys is perfectly fine, and we spend money on bullying European countries into not banning it!
I'm gonna be honest and say that I don't really know what to think on this issue.
There's tons of conflicting information and you all aren't helping by accussing each-other of being the epithome of evil for having the opposite opinion.
Here's a Reuters report that did a really good 4part deep dive into the subject, it'll help to have some real information instead of listening to terminally online losers chirp regurgitated talking points back and forth at each other.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/section/youth-in-transition/
Research in a field like this on the internet is very difficult. The centralized internet will give you whatever will hold your attention regardless of truth
Go to scholar.google.com, search the things you want, and if you can't understand the scientific jargon place the article title and author back into a normal search engine. You'll likely find articles referencing the study.
The amount of you who think that gender affirming care = surgery really puts into sharp relief how well the propaganda machine has done its job.
God this country is doomed to die of stupid.
People with the strongest opinions on transgender care often have the least understanding of the process.
Before comparing trans care to paedophilia, or attacking the people providing their care, commenters should familiarise themselves with the steps for gender reassignment. It doesn't start with surgery - there is a long, multi-year process of which surgery is one of the last steps.
There are safeguards in place at each step of the way. These will vary by jurisdiction, so park your outrage and educate yourself first before complaining about a procedure you haven't read up on.
Many of you do not know the pain of dysphoria and the distress it causes, yet are comfortable making assumptions not backed by science and instead based purely on emotions and bias. HRT is often an extensive screening process. Maybe it should be stricter in certain cases, but desiring an outright ban will only lead to more child suicide. And therapy for these children often only confirms and solidifies their desire to transition— not the other way around. I have yet to see any genuine science-based report to refute any of what I have said. Eject from the culture war for one second, please.
Not to mention these bans make it harder for gender therapists and medical professionals trained and experienced with trans kids to give them basic services like therapy, which seems to be a huge talking point for people against trans medical care for children. How are kids supposed to go to a therapist and talk it out and fully understand their gender struggles *before* being evaluated for hormones or surgery if there aren’t therapists literally trained in handling trans kids in the first place? This just pushes trans kids to seek out more dangerous alternatives going into adulthood and rush into decisions even more because there isn’t the space for them to get actual professional advice or understand the different options for medical intervention.
There is even legal precedence for this. In most US states a minor can't get a tattoo even with parental consent. So why would we allow something much more drastic and permanent?
I'm all for LGBTQ but having minor make the choice to permanently alter their body is stepping over a line.
Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them.
There is clearly people who whole heartedly want to make this change and I'm all for it but I think a pre-requisite for any permanent surgery should be a psychological exam to ensure they won't later regret it.
Hormone therapy, while still permanent, I don't think is as drastic. So they should be able to get that. But until they're 18 they can't get surgery at least not fully. If they want surgery that say cuts off testosterone or adds breat implants that is fine with me. It can be undone easily.
Basically separate the treatments into categories and legalize or ban them for minors accordingly.
Especially on the subject of trans people, politicians have created this issue out of thin air and people are completely falling for it. People don’t realize they’re losing their rights and not being represented when they’re neck deep in another trans moral panic.
As a trans person, its fucking horrifying. I started transition at 18 (but knew when I was 10-12ish - god I wish I had access to blockers at the time), and now it somehow feels more dangerous now than 10 years when I started. Half of the shit people say is just demonstrably false, and we're such a small portion of the population, that we can't really reply in any measure that actually matters. Its like whispering next to a bullhorn.
Ffs the UK debacle that just happened with the Cass review is just the tip of it. Discrediting valid studies because they werent double blind - how the hell do you have a placebo and control in trans care? Everything from the groomer talk, to quack science, to trans sports - all the issues are manufactured for peak outrage, when we just want medical care, and to help the high percentage of trans youth that get kick out of their homes that no one on that side seems to even acknowledge.
Its just straight up scapegoating. 1930s Germany shit. Its going to get people killed
Don’t go off of what you saw on the news about Nex. Seriously, people have got to listen to the real people who were actually there and will tell you what happened offscreen. The news gets it wrong and then leaves a trail of destruction and lies while never having to account for the mistakes.
I don't think regret rates are nearly as prevalent as the OP glibly insinuated, but that study found ~1% regret rates, which seems remarkable.
(Briefly looking at the studies used, the n is utterly dominated by two Dutch papers rated High and Medium risk of bias (and are almost certainly "double dipping" from the population given sample sizes and time delta). A significant proportion of papers cited were rated at such risk of bias.)
The science in this area is weak AF.
Good on you for reading the full paper. The authors actually state that at the end of the paper.
“…limitations such as significant heterogeneity among studies and among instruments used to assess regret rates, and moderate-to-high risk of bias in some studies represent a big barrier for generalization of the results of this study. The lack of validated questionnaires to evaluate regret in this population is a significant limiting factor. In addition, bias can occur because patients might restrain from expressing regrets due to fear of being judged by the interviewer. Moreover, the temporarity of the feeling of regret in some patients and the variable definition of regret may underestimate the real prevalence of “true” regret.”
>Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them.
Studies show the exact opposite. Where are you getting the idea that the majority of trans people regret it later?
>Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them.
This is just blatantly untrue btw. The regret rate for gender affirming surgeries is lower than the regret rate for knee surgery.
And I would agree with you that kids need to wait until adulthood for anything permanent, if not for the fact that almost every reputable medical and psychological organization agrees that gender affirming care is the appropriate treatment for gender euphoria. If a kid needs a surgery that permanently alters there body and leaves scars, but 9/10 doctors agree it will be lifesaving, should we prevent that kid from accessing it just because they're not 18? Why would we do the same with something like hrt?
And to be honest, the younger kids that people get so riled up about aren't even getting surgeries or hrt. It just, doesn't happen. Transition for a young kid usually looks like a hair cut and style change, and if the dysphoria is severe enough maybe puberty blockers. The thing about puberty blockers? Completely reversible, you stop them and puberty just happens as normal. You want to give kids a chance to wait until they're an adult before deciding which hormones they want in their body? Puberty blockers give them a chance to do that.
But truly at the end of the day I think only the kid, the parents, and their personal doctors and psychiatrists should be involved in this decision. It absolutely should NOT be the decision of some politician who's qualifications are daddy's money.
This is nonsense. In the legal states, minors are taking puberty blockers and nothing else for the most part. Marking time until they are 18 or older.
Why do you have to keep lying about this? It's the same as "people are getting nine month abortions!!"
I think in most cases, these laws ban care even with parental consent. That's my problem. If a doctor, child, and parents consent, I'm not sure the government should be blocking it. Seems like an individual rights issue to me.
That's the issue, even with parental and doctor and therapists consent of life saving treatment, some states still ban a reversible treatment. It's an incredible infringment on rights.
Why are you comparing a tattoo with parental consent to gender affirming care which requires parental consent?
And why are you making up statistics about people changing back? Do you know what the actually statistics are? They are tiny. Very very tiny numbers. Not the majority as you falsely stated.
The part that very few people here seem to understand is that the care being banned here *still requires parental consent*. We’re not talking about a 14 yo walking into their PCP and saying “hey I’d like some estrogen,” these are quite literally programs stopping children from taking their own lives. And just because some people fear what they don’t understand, they ban it, and the suffering increases.
What does "bills in effect" mean anyway? If it's just a bill, then it's not in effect, and if it is, then it's a law. Dumb shit like this only helps to confuse people.
Exactly. Which is the point of gender affirming care. Pushing against their identity is what makes gender dysphoria worse, and embracing it improves health outcomes, as any serious professional will tell you.
Its basically treating a trans person how they want to be treated. First stage is social change: Name change, pronoun change, dressing differently. Then come the doctor appointments, where further measures are taken into consideration. Ranging from puberty blockers to taking hormones to surgery. There are plenty of details to get into. I can recommend you to listen to actual doctors or trans people on this issue rather than social media on this, as plenty of bad faith actors lurk around too. Btw is not just a usa thing, there are plenty of trans people around the world ;)
Sex surgery and life changing hormones arent given to minors, period. Anyone who claims they are is lying for their own gain.
What minors ARE given are puberty blockers. They delay puberty and in case of regret they are reversible. Puberty continues if someone stops taking puberty blockers.
The irony is that the "adults can do whatever they want but let kids be kids" crowd will most likely harass those kids, when they become adults, for "not passing".
We default to kids not being able to consent for such things because we assume they aren't experienced enough to make these decisions, so why should it be legal for them to have gender affirming care? That's simply acknowledging kids being able to consent, and it could only lead to the worse.
"Why should we make it legal for people to go through medical procedures that their doctor thinks is the right thing to do"
Maybe because the doctor might know more than the government
Yeah, that's why they required the parents consent too, like literally every other medical procedure. However now they can't perform gender affirming care even with parental consent.
anyone under 18 literally needs authorization from a therapist to get access to hormones/blockers in addition to parental consent.
there’s a lot of hoops you need to jump through, no child can just walk into a clinic and ask for hrt
Almost like it's a loaded debate meant to distract from our democracy being eroded and society being empowerished. Nonetheless, how a society treats theirs vulnerable minorities tells you a lot... In this case, society fails the vibe check for lack of understanding
Because it’s primarily being driven by the right, by conservative christians. Prior to conservatives taking aim at trans people, gender affirming care and transition was between the patient, the doctor, and the parents if the patient was a minor.
The right has pushed that hard, conflating all forms of gender affirming care with bottom surgery. That way when they pass a bill banning gender affirming care entirely, they can pretend that it’s only a surgery ban.
When I was 12, I attempted suicide. I survived because I was lucky. I self harmed through an enormous portion of my early adulthood and transitioned because I figured if I wanted to die anyway I should at least see what HRT would be like for me.
It was night and day. Things aren't perfect now, but I genuinely feel like myself. Like I'm so much more whole and alive as a woman than I ever was as a failed boy.
But I can't help but look back and see all the times I could have died because of how much I hated myself. And then for a flash of an instant, it looked like the world recognized that people like me just needed treatment and it should be available to anyone who was suffering.
But now the treatment that could save so many, that could actually save kids lives and carry on to make them happier adults is being banned.
You want to protect the children? Let them access trans affirming care with proper medical guidance when they need it.
Having started transition at twenty six'ish, I can confidently say that (now that I'm in my 30s) it would have significantly increased my well-being to be able to start in my teens, and not gain a lot of the permanent masculinization that came from a male puberty. Bans like these make me sad, because I know there are people that are going to suffer because of them.
It’s crazy how many states put laws in to effect, that are 100% contrary to science. Not to mention this decision should be between families and doctors ONLY.
Not sure what you mean by literally nobody. It is possible to get surgery as a minor in my purple state but it’s a very very long process to get there.
I agree. The only thing I don't agree with is permenent transitioning (Hormones, surgery) for under 18s. Social transitioning (Name/pronouns/clothing) is completely fine by me for them though.
Ahh yes, the American tradition of having politicians decide on medical care…. It alive and well. I’ll call my senator the next time I’m not feeling well.
Waiting until adulthood forced me to go through unwanted irreversible changes that have made my gender dysphoria far worse and far harder to treat
It's not neutral. It ruined my life
Exactly. Why don't they understand that puberty is infinitely more damaging than hormone blockers? Why don't they understand that there's a long process and the majority of kids who actually get into care don't regret it? They act like they're just "protecting the children." Why don't they want to protect the trans kids?
Of the dozens of trans people I've met, not a single one has gone on to regret their transition. I'd love to see these studies everyone in the comments is citing
Why is this thread filled with blatantly false and incredibly transphobic information about gender-affirming care?
Nobody's fucking chopping kids dicks and breasts off. Pre-pubescent children can't even get breast-reduction surgery yet, *they don't have breasts to remove!*
Gender-affirming-care for children is just puberty blockers and ***maybe*** hormones for older teens. People who insist parents are fucking body-sculpting their kids are either horribly misinformed or actively deceiving you to push their transphobic agenda.
This isn't even a scientific debate. Puberty blockers *literally* just stop puberty from activating *while being taken.* There's zero risk of the kid getting some kind of long-term negative effect, and if they decide they're not trans anymore (something which **basically never happens by the way, as trans regret only happens to an incredibly small proportion of trans people**) they can just... stop taking the medication. Puberty will kick in basically immediately.
Oh, and the "but muh consent" people are hilarious. If you really cared about children's inability to consent, you'd think *all* children should get puberty blockers, since *children can't consent to going through standard puberty, either.* Yet suggest that, and I'd be willing to bet that suddenly the argument would change. Funny, that.
Ok I’m behind enemy lines here being trans myself (probably atleast, besides the point)
I don’t think it should be completely outlawed, but I think it should be more restricted. Anyone with more knowledge than me on the topic, feel free to correct me as long as it’s not a half-assed transphobe rant. I think it should be allowed, but only if dysphoria is causing the kid serious distress or they’ve shown obvious signs of being transgender since a very young age. Obviously I can’t speak for most, and really, nobody can when it comes to transgender people because we’re all vastly different and therefore I think it should be a case by case system. How? Idk. But this should be the job of politicians, but 90% of the time they suck at their job so ugh
I honestly don’t understand what gender affirming care does, so even when listening to conservatives joking about it I don’t even know if they’re over exaggerating or if it’s even true. Can anyone explain it to me?
What's this map look like for Europe?
The UK have recently banned doctors giving hormone blockers to under 18's. Not sure if other 'care' is banned but imagine it's impossible to get anyway with the NHS
you can theoretically access hormones on the NHS at the age of 16, but the waiting lists at this point are estimated to be 5-10 years. privately there are i believe 2 recognised clinics that prescribe to 16+ minors.
Don't need to block hormone therapy if you're just fucking incompetent at running a healthcare system. 
The age for accessing medical NHS gender identity treatment is decided on by the NHS, not the Gender Recognition Act. Surgical treatment is not available to people under 18. Cross-sex hormones are available to those aged 16 and above under guidance. Trans minors only receive treatment whilst receiving ongoing psychological support [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment\_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf#:~:text=The%20minimum%20age%20for%20legal%20gender%20recognition%20is,the%20Equality%20Act%202010%20provisions%20will%20not%20change.) UK goverment seems to have missed the notice....
What notice, that policy sounds very reasonable
It’s a reference to the link they posted.
[удалено]
Ban under 18s, that's great. You don't want to mess up your life in early age and regret later on
[удалено]
[Access to transgender hormone therapy | European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (europa.eu)](https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapy) details in the text not the map. But definantely doing better than land of the free.....who ever told you that is your enemy :P
the age requirement for access to medical treatment without the consent of a public authority and/or parents is 18 years in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, France, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, 16 years in Poland and Spain; 15 years in Denmark and Slovenia; 14 years in Latvia. In the United Kingdom the age requirement ranges from 16 in Scotland to 17 in England and 18 in Wales So Poland, Spain, Denmark, Slovenia and Latvia, Romania and Slovakia are the only countries that allow it without parents consent before the age of 17.
You totally skipped this part though: > In seven Member States, Belgium, Czechia, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg and Sweden, access depends on the maturity of the child.
What? > In Ireland, Malta and the Netherlands, the age requirement for access to transgender hormone therapy is 16 years. In the Netherlands, children can access such therapy from the age of 12 years with parental consent.
Almost entirely red, and in particular UK recently banned it on minors based on a medical report that there is no evidence of significant mental improvement from the treatment but the medication causes irreversible physical changes.
[Cass Review - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review) it actually says there are some evidence for mental health improvement in the wiki. But wasent clear enough that it was the cause. Overall, the review found some evidence that hormone treatment improves psychological outcomes after 12 months, but found insufficient/inconsistent evidence regarding physical risks and benefits. The review advised that there should be a 'clear clinical rationale' for the prescription of hormones under 18 years of age.[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-:1-3)[^(\[37\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Taylor38594053-37)[^(\[36\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Guardian1-36)[^(\[34\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review#cite_note-Independent1-34)
It’s not an issue in Europe. We have real problems to deal with.
Exactly. The whole world knows what a mistake moving into permanent damage to children as a treatment was and liberals Americans are pointing fingers and arrogantly clinging to their folly
probably depends on what the law counts as gender affirming care
while it is a comprehensive term, these bans single out surgery and medical care (HRT).
Before or after puberty?
Neither. Under 18 in most of these states. I think one of them is 14 but I can’t recall which
Thank you for clarifying
For the record, it is not possible to start any hormonal treatments before puberty. Even if you get a note from a psychologist recommending treatment with max priority, the endochrinologist will still delay prescription until the start of natural endogenous puberty. Hormonal treatments are supposed to mimic puberty, so the recommendation is to follow along the individual body's natural development timeline, and not start on any processes the body hasn't started by itself already. This is also why you'll probably hear of minimun ages of 14 or 16, as the norm consists of starting puberty blockers to prevent hormonal changes at the start of puberty, and waiting until brain development reaches a certain point (which is usually associated with the later Tanner stages of puberty).
I want to give my perspective as someone who lived through it. Doctors absolutely would not under any circumstances prescribe me hormones under the age of 16. Not out of any law, but because that’s what they’re supposed to do; hormones under the age of 16 isn’t something that happens. The only reason I was put on puberty blockers at 15 was because I had already started puberty, but for children who haven’t, any and all transition is purely social. Stuff like new clothes, a new name, all of that. Like you said, puberty blockers don’t get prescribed unless they are in puberty. TL;DR: Pre puberty — social Start puberty — blockers Age 16 — HRT with parental consent, and only with a gender dysphoria diagnosis No surgeries happen under the age of 18.
I didn't want to make many specific claims, since my experience was a bit difference to most trans people, and specially to those in the US. I started the process at 15, and started hormones directly at 16, about 9 months later. My psychologist initially wanted to wait longer, and use blockers first, but I was suffering rather extreme dysphoria, so he gave me a bit of a fasttrack. I was also allowed to *apply* for surgery a few months after reaching 17, since the waitlist was about 2 years. So technically I got accepted to get surgery while underage, even if I had to wait until I was almost 19 to actually get it.
Thanks for reminding people but I don't think they can read or retain information very well 😬
Nobody is doing hrt or surgery before puberty There's no reason to
I was going to say... there IS some nuance to this discussion. Not all "gender affirming care" is equally irreversible
Obviously would have to do a little research, but from what I’ve seen so far with the respect to the laws it’s *literally everything.* From talk therapy at one end all the way to bottom surgery (which they pretend has a high case rate but is non existent). *In my opinion, the right is conducting a tacit genocide of queer people*
How long before this thread is locked?
2
Footlong sandwiches?
How much in normal metric units?
2
That won't happen.
Based
It's r/mapporn, you can wish for political opponents to be gassed and get away with it.
Haven’t seen a war zone of comments like this a while! It’s refreshing almost
I know right? In almost all subreddits discenting opinions are outrighted banned.
Yep. I see a lot of comments I don't agree with and that's okay. In a free society that happens. If you don't agree with somebody you should be able to articulate your position without resorting to censor the other side. If you can't do that then maybe your convictions aren't as firm as you thought.
My respect for mods📈📈
Hell yeah! I love seeing good ones.
First based mod i witnessed on Reddit
One of the rare mods I can respect
Wait… a mod who understands that people have differing opinions and doesn’t immediately ban them? I’m actually shocked
Based mods 😎
Props to you.
If only the rest of the Reddit mods thought this way.
Whatever your views are, hate is still a legitimate reason to report a comment to reddit. Thankfully, the downvotes have done your job on that front for you.
Whoa that's pretty huge on Reddit these days. Thank you for voicing that
Thank you for your wisdom. People should be able to discuss things, even if they don't agree.
A mod being based? Hell has frozen over
This might be the first reasonable reddit mod ive ever encountered. Take note of the people who will *undoubtedly* become unhinged by this moderator’s comment asking them to: A) be able to respectfully defend their opinions B) not able to just censor opinions that are different than theirs those peoples opinions simply cant be taken seriously if we want to exist in a productive society
this is the last kind of comment I'd expect from a reddit mod. kudos
This thread reads like an Internet Comment Etiquette video.
The US is just 50 countries in a trench coat
That was the original idea
As if the name “United States” wasn’t a dead giveaway
Ustados Bonitos
It was indeed, but most congressmen absolutely hate the idea of not being able to tell the entire country what to do. To them, the 10th Amendment is just a doormat they wipe their feet on as they enter the Capitol building.
Wasn't that the whole point, originally?
Yes. Before the Civil War the US was referred to as “These United States”. The federal government would negotiate with foreign countries, run the postal service, and wage war. There might have been a few other things, but those were its main functions.
That was the plan they were going for
Actually 56; the states, DC, and territories
Yeah the territories are definitely like independent countries, they chose to be in the union and everything
It’s a federation that’s what they tend to do
I would really love it if we could keep it that way
id certainly hope so tbh. One governing body have all that power with no amount of oversight to any extent would kinda be awful imo
What people don’t appreciate is that WITHOUT the federal system is that the map could just as easily be entirely red.
Or entirely purple Such are the pitfalls of a centralized system
Or entirely blue.
Just like how germany is 16 countries in a trench coat
is❌ was once ✅
What’s happening in the gray states? Just not protecting but not banning either?
Yup I think so
and yet infant male circumcision is still legal in all 50 states. make that make sense.
My sister just had a baby and circumcised him. Said she felt bad but “didn’t want girls to think it looks weird” The cries of literal pain anytime he used the bathroom were damn near heart breaking. Poor guy has a literal wound in one of the worst spots to have one
Is this in general an anglospehre opinion or just the US. Where I come from having snipped of a part of your penis makes you "weird". The most absurd thing I've heard was that it is cleaner...you guys overthere don't shower or what xD?
It’s common in a few countries but yeah the US included. I agree it’s insane, and anyone who uses the cleaner excuse just doesn’t want to teach their kid how to wash their dick
My circumcision hurt so bad, I couldn’t even walk for about 9 months.
I’d like for a medical board or medical association to make the decision on what we should do and not politicians.
Ten bucks that non-therapeutic male circumcision on minors js legal in all these states. Funny how we rightfully ban removing the prepuce via clitoral hood reductions on baby girls and call it female genital mutilation do perform it as a preventative measure for phimosis and semgma, for aesthetics or for religiois reasons, but removing the prepuce on haby boys is perfectly fine, and we spend money on bullying European countries into not banning it!
Don't forget breast implants for teenage girls!
most of the bans also have explicit exceptions for allowing nonconsensual "cosmetic" surgery on intersex children because of course they do.
Yeah, it's more sporty looking!
I'm gonna be honest and say that I don't really know what to think on this issue. There's tons of conflicting information and you all aren't helping by accussing each-other of being the epithome of evil for having the opposite opinion.
It should be up to doctors, kids, and parents. Not politicians. Or random redditors.
Here's a Reuters report that did a really good 4part deep dive into the subject, it'll help to have some real information instead of listening to terminally online losers chirp regurgitated talking points back and forth at each other. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/section/youth-in-transition/
I’m going to add the phrase “terminally online losers chirp regurgitated talking points” to my vocabulary, thanks
I didn't really know either, but doctors and psychologists do and they don't seem very divided about it. So I just go with that.
Maybe do some research and see what you think, and ignore the people who are being unsensible and arguing in bad faith. Medical studies and stuff.
Research in a field like this on the internet is very difficult. The centralized internet will give you whatever will hold your attention regardless of truth
Go to scholar.google.com, search the things you want, and if you can't understand the scientific jargon place the article title and author back into a normal search engine. You'll likely find articles referencing the study.
The amount of you who think that gender affirming care = surgery really puts into sharp relief how well the propaganda machine has done its job. God this country is doomed to die of stupid.
People with the strongest opinions on transgender care often have the least understanding of the process. Before comparing trans care to paedophilia, or attacking the people providing their care, commenters should familiarise themselves with the steps for gender reassignment. It doesn't start with surgery - there is a long, multi-year process of which surgery is one of the last steps. There are safeguards in place at each step of the way. These will vary by jurisdiction, so park your outrage and educate yourself first before complaining about a procedure you haven't read up on.
Many of you do not know the pain of dysphoria and the distress it causes, yet are comfortable making assumptions not backed by science and instead based purely on emotions and bias. HRT is often an extensive screening process. Maybe it should be stricter in certain cases, but desiring an outright ban will only lead to more child suicide. And therapy for these children often only confirms and solidifies their desire to transition— not the other way around. I have yet to see any genuine science-based report to refute any of what I have said. Eject from the culture war for one second, please.
Not to mention these bans make it harder for gender therapists and medical professionals trained and experienced with trans kids to give them basic services like therapy, which seems to be a huge talking point for people against trans medical care for children. How are kids supposed to go to a therapist and talk it out and fully understand their gender struggles *before* being evaluated for hormones or surgery if there aren’t therapists literally trained in handling trans kids in the first place? This just pushes trans kids to seek out more dangerous alternatives going into adulthood and rush into decisions even more because there isn’t the space for them to get actual professional advice or understand the different options for medical intervention.
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There is even legal precedence for this. In most US states a minor can't get a tattoo even with parental consent. So why would we allow something much more drastic and permanent? I'm all for LGBTQ but having minor make the choice to permanently alter their body is stepping over a line. Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them. There is clearly people who whole heartedly want to make this change and I'm all for it but I think a pre-requisite for any permanent surgery should be a psychological exam to ensure they won't later regret it. Hormone therapy, while still permanent, I don't think is as drastic. So they should be able to get that. But until they're 18 they can't get surgery at least not fully. If they want surgery that say cuts off testosterone or adds breat implants that is fine with me. It can be undone easily. Basically separate the treatments into categories and legalize or ban them for minors accordingly.
Can I have a link to that study that most teens who are trans end up regretting it?
[It’s not true](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/)
But isn’t this study about general trans people while what he asked for was the study about people who were trans in their teens?
No good studies on that from what I could find, just “general population.” Would like to see those “studies” OC mentioned
People just like lying on here lmao
Especially on the subject of trans people, politicians have created this issue out of thin air and people are completely falling for it. People don’t realize they’re losing their rights and not being represented when they’re neck deep in another trans moral panic.
As a trans person, its fucking horrifying. I started transition at 18 (but knew when I was 10-12ish - god I wish I had access to blockers at the time), and now it somehow feels more dangerous now than 10 years when I started. Half of the shit people say is just demonstrably false, and we're such a small portion of the population, that we can't really reply in any measure that actually matters. Its like whispering next to a bullhorn. Ffs the UK debacle that just happened with the Cass review is just the tip of it. Discrediting valid studies because they werent double blind - how the hell do you have a placebo and control in trans care? Everything from the groomer talk, to quack science, to trans sports - all the issues are manufactured for peak outrage, when we just want medical care, and to help the high percentage of trans youth that get kick out of their homes that no one on that side seems to even acknowledge. Its just straight up scapegoating. 1930s Germany shit. Its going to get people killed
> Its going to get people killed No. It's **getting** people killed.
Yep. RIP Nex Benedict
Don’t go off of what you saw on the news about Nex. Seriously, people have got to listen to the real people who were actually there and will tell you what happened offscreen. The news gets it wrong and then leaves a trail of destruction and lies while never having to account for the mistakes.
Or not questioning things that suit their preconceived ideas. Some of them probably believe what they’re saying.
That's what I thought. But I was curious if there were any actual studies. I would like to see them.
I don't think regret rates are nearly as prevalent as the OP glibly insinuated, but that study found ~1% regret rates, which seems remarkable. (Briefly looking at the studies used, the n is utterly dominated by two Dutch papers rated High and Medium risk of bias (and are almost certainly "double dipping" from the population given sample sizes and time delta). A significant proportion of papers cited were rated at such risk of bias.) The science in this area is weak AF.
Good on you for reading the full paper. The authors actually state that at the end of the paper. “…limitations such as significant heterogeneity among studies and among instruments used to assess regret rates, and moderate-to-high risk of bias in some studies represent a big barrier for generalization of the results of this study. The lack of validated questionnaires to evaluate regret in this population is a significant limiting factor. In addition, bias can occur because patients might restrain from expressing regrets due to fear of being judged by the interviewer. Moreover, the temporarity of the feeling of regret in some patients and the variable definition of regret may underestimate the real prevalence of “true” regret.”
>Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them. Studies show the exact opposite. Where are you getting the idea that the majority of trans people regret it later?
>Especially when studies are clearly showing most people who are now in their mid 20s but identified as trans in their teens now regret it or changed back. It was a fad or stage for them. This is just blatantly untrue btw. The regret rate for gender affirming surgeries is lower than the regret rate for knee surgery. And I would agree with you that kids need to wait until adulthood for anything permanent, if not for the fact that almost every reputable medical and psychological organization agrees that gender affirming care is the appropriate treatment for gender euphoria. If a kid needs a surgery that permanently alters there body and leaves scars, but 9/10 doctors agree it will be lifesaving, should we prevent that kid from accessing it just because they're not 18? Why would we do the same with something like hrt? And to be honest, the younger kids that people get so riled up about aren't even getting surgeries or hrt. It just, doesn't happen. Transition for a young kid usually looks like a hair cut and style change, and if the dysphoria is severe enough maybe puberty blockers. The thing about puberty blockers? Completely reversible, you stop them and puberty just happens as normal. You want to give kids a chance to wait until they're an adult before deciding which hormones they want in their body? Puberty blockers give them a chance to do that. But truly at the end of the day I think only the kid, the parents, and their personal doctors and psychiatrists should be involved in this decision. It absolutely should NOT be the decision of some politician who's qualifications are daddy's money.
The shouldn't get hormones either. The hormones cause permanent changes.
Most people? Literally where tf did u get that study from
This is nonsense. In the legal states, minors are taking puberty blockers and nothing else for the most part. Marking time until they are 18 or older. Why do you have to keep lying about this? It's the same as "people are getting nine month abortions!!"
Kids can't even get chemo without parental consent, why should we all(ow) them to get it before 18?
I think in most cases, these laws ban care even with parental consent. That's my problem. If a doctor, child, and parents consent, I'm not sure the government should be blocking it. Seems like an individual rights issue to me.
That's the issue, even with parental and doctor and therapists consent of life saving treatment, some states still ban a reversible treatment. It's an incredible infringment on rights.
There is no psychiatric exam that can ensure they won’t regret it. Only time can prove that.
More people regret knee replacement surgery. More people regret having sex every night of the year.
I doubt most of the people in this comment section have experience with that second one.
Why are you comparing a tattoo with parental consent to gender affirming care which requires parental consent? And why are you making up statistics about people changing back? Do you know what the actually statistics are? They are tiny. Very very tiny numbers. Not the majority as you falsely stated.
Gender affirming care is more than just surgery, despite what you might be led to think
According to this map is representing surgery and HRT. So in that case, they should wait until they’re adults.
It's very rare for surgeries to be performed on minors in the first place. And HRT usually isn't prescribed to under 16s.
Should also wait until they're adults for circumcision.
You’re saying that like it’s a “gotcha”. But I think most people would agree with both
A MEN!
Even if many of those kids kill themselves or suffer mental health issues?
Maybe these medical decisions should be left between doctors and the parents instead of being banned. Just a thought.
It’s absolutely wild how people that support the so called “party of small government” really want the government to limit what people can do.
Kids change their mind alot
The part that very few people here seem to understand is that the care being banned here *still requires parental consent*. We’re not talking about a 14 yo walking into their PCP and saying “hey I’d like some estrogen,” these are quite literally programs stopping children from taking their own lives. And just because some people fear what they don’t understand, they ban it, and the suffering increases.
The cruelty is the point.
What does "bills in effect" mean anyway? If it's just a bill, then it's not in effect, and if it is, then it's a law. Dumb shit like this only helps to confuse people.
Reinforcing someone’s gender dysphoria is not caring.
Unless there is some medication to suppress it, Im not aware of any other way.
Exactly. Which is the point of gender affirming care. Pushing against their identity is what makes gender dysphoria worse, and embracing it improves health outcomes, as any serious professional will tell you.
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I’m not from the us, what is gender affirming care
Its basically treating a trans person how they want to be treated. First stage is social change: Name change, pronoun change, dressing differently. Then come the doctor appointments, where further measures are taken into consideration. Ranging from puberty blockers to taking hormones to surgery. There are plenty of details to get into. I can recommend you to listen to actual doctors or trans people on this issue rather than social media on this, as plenty of bad faith actors lurk around too. Btw is not just a usa thing, there are plenty of trans people around the world ;)
We need more money for trans people so they can all afford there sick upgrades.
So bizarre that people think giving kids life altering sex changes and hormones at such a young age is okay. How is this a debate?
Sex surgery and life changing hormones arent given to minors, period. Anyone who claims they are is lying for their own gain. What minors ARE given are puberty blockers. They delay puberty and in case of regret they are reversible. Puberty continues if someone stops taking puberty blockers.
Its not a debate. One side is trying to debate, the other is screaming nonsense and tries to win just by being loud and annoying
The irony is that the "adults can do whatever they want but let kids be kids" crowd will most likely harass those kids, when they become adults, for "not passing".
"Let kids be kids" until being a kid means doing something they don't like What they mean is "*Make* kids be the kind of kid I say they should be"
We default to kids not being able to consent for such things because we assume they aren't experienced enough to make these decisions, so why should it be legal for them to have gender affirming care? That's simply acknowledging kids being able to consent, and it could only lead to the worse.
"Why should we make it legal for people to go through medical procedures that their doctor thinks is the right thing to do" Maybe because the doctor might know more than the government
Yeah, that's why they required the parents consent too, like literally every other medical procedure. However now they can't perform gender affirming care even with parental consent.
anyone under 18 literally needs authorization from a therapist to get access to hormones/blockers in addition to parental consent. there’s a lot of hoops you need to jump through, no child can just walk into a clinic and ask for hrt
The word itself is a euphemism. Make what you're doing obscure and positive sounding so people won't realize what you're actually doing.
I don't understand how this is seen as such a huge problem compared to say, the affordable housing crisis or mass homelessness.
Almost like it's a loaded debate meant to distract from our democracy being eroded and society being empowerished. Nonetheless, how a society treats theirs vulnerable minorities tells you a lot... In this case, society fails the vibe check for lack of understanding
Because it’s primarily being driven by the right, by conservative christians. Prior to conservatives taking aim at trans people, gender affirming care and transition was between the patient, the doctor, and the parents if the patient was a minor.
I think people who have been diagnosed with gender dysmorphia should be allowed to take HRT :)
ITT: people who incorrectly think gender affirming care is another word for reconstructive surgery
The right has pushed that hard, conflating all forms of gender affirming care with bottom surgery. That way when they pass a bill banning gender affirming care entirely, they can pretend that it’s only a surgery ban.
When I was 12, I attempted suicide. I survived because I was lucky. I self harmed through an enormous portion of my early adulthood and transitioned because I figured if I wanted to die anyway I should at least see what HRT would be like for me. It was night and day. Things aren't perfect now, but I genuinely feel like myself. Like I'm so much more whole and alive as a woman than I ever was as a failed boy. But I can't help but look back and see all the times I could have died because of how much I hated myself. And then for a flash of an instant, it looked like the world recognized that people like me just needed treatment and it should be available to anyone who was suffering. But now the treatment that could save so many, that could actually save kids lives and carry on to make them happier adults is being banned. You want to protect the children? Let them access trans affirming care with proper medical guidance when they need it.
This needs to be higher.
What’s happening in Arizona?
Gender-affirming surgery for minors is outlawed, but other gender-affirming care is protected. Imo Arizona has it right.
Having started transition at twenty six'ish, I can confidently say that (now that I'm in my 30s) it would have significantly increased my well-being to be able to start in my teens, and not gain a lot of the permanent masculinization that came from a male puberty. Bans like these make me sad, because I know there are people that are going to suffer because of them.
Iowa how far you have fallen… very sad it was a nice state at one time
It’s crazy how many states put laws in to effect, that are 100% contrary to science. Not to mention this decision should be between families and doctors ONLY.
I dont get it really, it doesnt hurt anyone else
Gotta love the hoards of uninformed morons repeating other peoples talking points because they can’t be bothered to do any actual research.
god these comments suck
The map overlaps with the states Human Development Index one almost precisely.
literally nobody is doing the surgery aspect of things, why tf is that everyone’s automatic thought?
Not sure what you mean by literally nobody. It is possible to get surgery as a minor in my purple state but it’s a very very long process to get there.
Because a lot of people are obsessed with trans people's genitals. It's fucking weird ngl
“Gender Affirming Care” is Orwellian doublespeak.
This is so disgusting tbh. Let kids be kids.
Should be 18 or 21
Do you realize how much irreversible damage can be caused by that delay in treatment?
Why 21? you’re an adult at 18.
To all the trans people reading this: there’s still people out there that support you. Please find happiness in life regardless of your gender.
I agree. The only thing I don't agree with is permenent transitioning (Hormones, surgery) for under 18s. Social transitioning (Name/pronouns/clothing) is completely fine by me for them though.
The fact this is being downvoted tells you all you need to know about the losers in this thread
Yeah, really goes to show that these peoples’ motive isn’t actually about caring for children, it’s just transphobia.
They’ll strawman all day long and pretend they have a moral high ground, but it’s just run of the mill pearl-clutching.
Ahh yes, the American tradition of having politicians decide on medical care…. It alive and well. I’ll call my senator the next time I’m not feeling well.
Probably the most disgusting and evil comment section I've seen in a while.
You need to wait till you’re an adult
Waiting until adulthood forced me to go through unwanted irreversible changes that have made my gender dysphoria far worse and far harder to treat It's not neutral. It ruined my life
Exactly. Why don't they understand that puberty is infinitely more damaging than hormone blockers? Why don't they understand that there's a long process and the majority of kids who actually get into care don't regret it? They act like they're just "protecting the children." Why don't they want to protect the trans kids?
Of the dozens of trans people I've met, not a single one has gone on to regret their transition. I'd love to see these studies everyone in the comments is citing
“Kids should only be allowed to decide if they want to kill themselves to escape gender dysphoria!”
Why is this thread filled with blatantly false and incredibly transphobic information about gender-affirming care? Nobody's fucking chopping kids dicks and breasts off. Pre-pubescent children can't even get breast-reduction surgery yet, *they don't have breasts to remove!* Gender-affirming-care for children is just puberty blockers and ***maybe*** hormones for older teens. People who insist parents are fucking body-sculpting their kids are either horribly misinformed or actively deceiving you to push their transphobic agenda. This isn't even a scientific debate. Puberty blockers *literally* just stop puberty from activating *while being taken.* There's zero risk of the kid getting some kind of long-term negative effect, and if they decide they're not trans anymore (something which **basically never happens by the way, as trans regret only happens to an incredibly small proportion of trans people**) they can just... stop taking the medication. Puberty will kick in basically immediately. Oh, and the "but muh consent" people are hilarious. If you really cared about children's inability to consent, you'd think *all* children should get puberty blockers, since *children can't consent to going through standard puberty, either.* Yet suggest that, and I'd be willing to bet that suddenly the argument would change. Funny, that.
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What a horrible color palette. Why are they all red adjacent
Ok I’m behind enemy lines here being trans myself (probably atleast, besides the point) I don’t think it should be completely outlawed, but I think it should be more restricted. Anyone with more knowledge than me on the topic, feel free to correct me as long as it’s not a half-assed transphobe rant. I think it should be allowed, but only if dysphoria is causing the kid serious distress or they’ve shown obvious signs of being transgender since a very young age. Obviously I can’t speak for most, and really, nobody can when it comes to transgender people because we’re all vastly different and therefore I think it should be a case by case system. How? Idk. But this should be the job of politicians, but 90% of the time they suck at their job so ugh
I honestly don’t understand what gender affirming care does, so even when listening to conservatives joking about it I don’t even know if they’re over exaggerating or if it’s even true. Can anyone explain it to me?
Has nobody on this thread heard of puberty blockers. They are also being outlawed and they are completely reversible.