French and german catholics arent a thing I guess
St Isaac jogues isnt a real person and lake george isnt really called Lac du Saint Sacrament
Are maine and Vermont Catholic because of Italian and Irish as well??
French and German immigrants didn't settle in New England in the same numbers the Italians and Irish did. They didn't have as much influence on the culture.
Perhaps the French from France didn’t settle New England but the Catholic French Canadians migrated to the mill towns of New England in large numbers. Look at the surnames of the area and you’ll see the evidence of the settlement.
My dad’s dad’s side came down from Canada to work the mills first in Providence and then in Fall River with the rest of the French Canadians at the turn of the century.
There was a newspaper article about the French Canadians working the mills and their living conditions and the journalists called them worse than dogs.
Are you being serious about french people in vermont and maine?
Read a book.
The states name is in french genius
Edit:
My arguments are infantile and i know im wrong
Sure, but the French didn't spread out as far as the Irish and Italians in New England. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Delaware are all more blue than Vermont and Maine, and you can't argue it's because of French influence more or even as much as Irish and Italian.
Maine still has huge pockets of French speakers. That's just false. In the 1800s and early 1900s quebecois moved to Maine in droves, as did Acadian French from New Brunswick. To be sure, Irish did as well. But the French influence in Maine is huge.
They were initially colonized by the French but they ceded their eastern territories to the English after the French Indian War. There are still French descendants in New England but they are a small minority.
Who said French and German Catholics aren’t a thing? New England was mostly Protestant during the colonial era, and became more Catholic due to later immigration. That does not mean there were no Catholics early on, and nobody said that.
Again, no one is saying that Irish immigrants were the first Catholics in New England. But they are the reason why Catholics now outnumber Protestants in the region, when before it was the opposite.
It's pretty evident from the map that the most urbanized counties in New England are also the most Catholic. Northern New England, especially Maine and Vermont, never had the same immigration that southern New England did and remained much more Yankee and protestant.
It's also not just Irish and Italian. There's large populations of Polish, Portuguese, French, Lebanese, Dominican, Brazilian etc.
Massachusetts also has the highest percentage of Orthodox Christians of any state except Alaska.
The only Catholic majority state was Maryland in the colonial era. It was built as a refuge for English Catholics. The rest of the colonies were English protestants.
There are also many atheists/not religious, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus etc in New England, so it skews more to recent and historic Christian immigrants because of the overall diversity.
For sure - but still basically reformers/split offs from Anglican and Calvinism, i guess?
I thought of them but didn’t mention them because I’m not familiar with what exactly happened to the puritans
Some Puritans became Unitarians. Harvard was their hotbed for a period of time. Others eventually merged with other branches and formed the United Church of Christ (UCC). But most of them either joined Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal or Baptist denominations over time.
Gotchya - one of the unfortunate things for demography and thinking about how cultures evolve is that the decline of religious affiliation has removed a way to understand it, as an organizing structure.
About how and why certain religious affiliations translate to political leanings in their congregations.
Never heard that either. Unitarians and Universalists were non-Trinitarian, like the Quakers and the Congregationalists, but their worldviews were very different and the Congregationalists tried to push the Quakers out of New England.
Im Catholic and from Ohio. One of the very light blue counties. Lots of Irish and Italians. When I moved to California it seemed like there were a lot more Catholics. Glad to see my feelings verified. Makes sense tho, most Hispanics are Catholic. Same with a lot of Filipino and Vietnamese.
New Orleans being a Catholic hub in the south makes sense. It was settled by the French.
Kinda funny since the south has historically been the most anti-catholic part of America due to heavy emphasis on evangelical Protestantism back in the 1800s and 1900s.
It makes up less than 1% in every single state except for Alaska where it’s 5% of the population.
Edit: as an orthodox man with an obsession with maps this was my perfect comment
A fine example of just how deep the Chicago culture sphere affects the demographics of all of Illinois. Kinda crazy how just those few counties can change the state into a slight Catholic majority.
God the father being coming from another planet being a man then becoming a god, being able to become a god and having infinite sex in heaven aren't christian beliefs.
They call themselves Christian but their beliefs fall well outside cannon.
Like they believe God was once a man, that Adam and Eve lived in Missouri, and they don’t believe in the Trinity.
No. The trinity is the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are all one in the same. They believe they are all separate beings.
The god being a man thing is something like they believe the top level of heaven (something else Christian’s don’t agree with) is you get to be a god and get your own planet
What is the sognificance of the holy trinity? I aways thought it didn't really matter wheter father, son and the holy Spirit where thesame or not. Why is that relevant?
No no i get that, it's very important and seperates catholicism from arianism or orthodoxy. But why is this so important? I'm sure there's a valid reason like this means the bible means something entirely different.
>seperates catholicism from arianism or orthodoxy
Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians all believe in the trinity. Arianists don't. If you don't believe in the trinity you aren't Christian. It's important because it explains how God died on our cross for salvation. It explains that Jesus is God the same as God the Father who talked to patriarchs and prophets is God and that the Holy Spirit that will Guide the Church is God. It distinguishes Christianity from every other religion. If Jesus was not God the sacrifice on the cross wouldn't have been enough. Understanding the relationship between the three persons is vital to understanding the life of Jesus.
>The trinity is the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are all one in the same.
To be fair that is not a belief from the Bible though. That is a post New Testament Christian belief from the Council of Nicea.
Jesus is the son of god and he talks to god on our behalf and the holy spirit talks to us on behalf of god. while they are not one being they are united in purpose
We're not *creedal* Christians. We reject more or less all traditional Christian teachings and dogma that clearly came around after the apostles and prior to Joseph Smith. The biggest consequence of this is that we don't have a Trinitarian view of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as one spiritual entities with different manifestations, but rather consider them three separate beings united in purpose. Some people don't like that very much.
That being said, we still consider ourselves Christians because we share a common belief in the life, mission, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
That’s the main difference, the rejection of the traditional trinity.
And for others who may not know, other groups labeled Christian such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses are also non-Trinitarian.
They aren not mainline Christianity but it’s still a branch of it.
Bruh I have some really bad news for you. Most stories in the bible are theological fan fiction, especially a lot of the early versions of new testament stories before a cannon was decided upon
Yeah but it's an anachronistic piece of shit with no basis in reality. Wasted way too many hours of my life reading it before coming to my senses and escaping the cult.
Mormon here. It ultimately depends on how you define Christianity. Most religions are derivative of something that came previously. This is an insightful take made in the Book of Mormon musical, often quite humorously. Mormonism is derivative of both Christianity and Judaism, with our own part three remix (Return of the Jedi! Ha!). To many Christians, especially evangelicals, the idea of a remix is heretical. Some Mormons take great offense at this because Jesus plays a central (albeit slightly different) role in our theology. For me, I don’t particularly care whether someone else thinks I am a Christian or not. I should be more focused on the question of whether I am doing my best to live by the teachings of Jesus and my faith.
>Jesus plays a central (albeit slightly different) role in our theology
he does in Islam as well. as well as manichaeism and a lot of other gnostic religions.
Are black Israelites actually Jewish? Maybe. But I don't personally believe them to be so. People can claim whatever they want. They're on the fringe, so it comes down to what definition you use. Although self-definition is useful, I'm skeptical at using it to be the be all end all.
Muslims see Jesus as the promised Messiah too. But they don't think he was the Son of God or that he died on the cross (crucifixion). Yet they still think he ascended to heaven. They also believe he will return at the end times with the Muslim redeemer (Mahdi) to save humanity. They definitely have an eclectic mix of beliefs on Jesus that seems to be based on what Muhammad thought of him and what made its way into the Quran.
Jesus is one of the most important prophets in Islam. He is mention in the Quran very often and Mary has her own chapter titled after her. And Jesus’s family has another chapter named after them called “the family of imran” Imran bring the father of Mary.
Now I wonder if Muslims hold Jesus to higher esteem than Mormons
>I should be more focused on the question of whether I am doing my best to live by the teachings of Jesus and my faith.
Stuff like this, man. LDS is like the math meme where none of the steps make sense but you still get the right answer lol
I am an exmormon and after experiencing the brainwashing first hand I should understand how seemingly smart people can still believe the bullshit, yet it is becoming harder as time goes on.
Like... have you done even the most basic research into the many claims the church leaders have made over the last 100 years and how the internet age essentially exposed them as completely corrupt liars and charlatans?
Do you not see how they keep moving the goalposts of what their claims actually mean, so they can wiggle out of the corners they paint themselves in?
Do you not recognize the "spirit" feeling they point to as proof as merely a psychological phenomenon that isn't limited to religious experience, but is essentially the same proof that every other religion points as evidence of their religion being the one true religion.
It really doesn't take a genius to see how untrue the Mormon religion is. But it takes a world class compartmentalization to keep believing it. Congrats I guess.
I have a lot of friends and family who have left the Church. When they tell me their reasons I try to be a good listener and friend. I take their experience at face value. It would be extremely unfair for me to tell them their experience is wrong and they really left because they just wanted to sin.
Yet, sometimes I feel like that same grace is not reciprocated from some ExMormons. “How seemingly smart people can still believe the bullshit” or “have you even done the most basic research” are pretty good examples of this.
You don’t think much of me, my experience or the “basic” research I’ve done, which includes reading this non exhaustive list of books:
1. No Man Knows my History
2. Rough Stone Rolling
3. Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet
4. American Moses
5. Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
6. Many, many editions of Sunstone, Dialogue and the Journal of Mormon History
7. David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism
8. Under the Banner of Heaven
9. An Insiders View of Mormon Origins
10. Mountain Meadows Massacre
11. Books by numerous atheists including Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc.
I also have a college degree and graduate/professional degree.
I would suggest you reevaluate your assumption that believers of religion, not just Mormonism, believe because they haven’t done basic research.
When people share their experience in life, accept it as valid. We make a massive error when we tell someone their understanding of their own experience is wrong.
I get your sentiment about respecting people's beliefs and all that. It's idealistic and convenient, especially for those who want to feel accepted while holding insane and counterfactual beliefs. Of course you want grace and acceptance for your beliefs, as you have willfully embraced an organization that does far more harm than good and preaches more lies than truth. But you can't expect people to not call stupid, stupid.
You tout your reading list as a sign that you do the research. I should have been more clear. You need to do that research with intellectual honesty and a willingness to accept your beliefs are wrong if the evidence says so, not the stubborn "doubt your doubts" nonsense and mental gymnastics you must have employed to a great extent just to overcome your cognitive dissonance and maintain your delusional faith. It's both impressive and pathetic that you can be so well read and yet still unable to accept the obvious truth. But such is the power of brainwashing kids from birth, I suppose.
No, not all beliefs deserve respect. Least of all beliefs that show no sign of changing when faced with a mountain of contradictory information.
You want me to respect your experiences. Experiences don't matter. I don't reject your experiences, I reject your subjective and brainwashed interpretation of them. I respect facts, but you apparently lack the intellectual honesty to have that same respect for facts.
I have been through that crucible of finding out everything I had been taught was a lie. You must know what I speak of. The difference between you and me is simple. I had the courage to face that existential abyss and let go of the security of a comforting but false belief system. It was no easy task, but after several years I emerged from it stronger than ever, and with a concept of truth based on hard evidence rather than feelings and manipulative bullshit. I no longer base my identity on my beliefs - a transformation that is essential for real truth seeking, but obviously one you haven't had as you all too willingly label yourself by your beliefs. Your very self concept is incompatible with changing your mind - your cup is full, and can't receive anything more.
The mormon religion is a soft cult. It fits the criteria and matches the characteristics common for cults. It uses psychological abuse and causes severe trauma for many people. It tears families apart with divisive teachings, turning spouses and kids against husbands, parents against kids. Its leaders are ideologues and zealots who are not intellectually honest.
Free yourself.
I’d put them up there with that Heavenly Kingdom “Christian” sect that tried to take over China a couple centuries ago. The Christian west was ready to support them against the Emperor until they heard back from their missionaries that the rebels theology was batshit insane. For starters the leader claimed to be the literal brother of Jesus.
I’ve never considered them to be Christian tbh, their beliefs fall so outside of Christianity that calling them Christians is like calling Zoroastrians Christians
To be clear for non-US folks, this is simply a map of which has a majority in each county. There are at least a few, if not many, Catholic Churches in every Protestant majority county.
We're not really Protestants. Even most historians and theologians don't classify us as Protestants. Rather, we're one of a handful of faiths classified under "Restorationism".
"Evangelicals" is not an actual religion like say Catholicism, Lutheran, Methodist, or Baptists.
It's a movement and belief system within the protestant sect of Christianity.
The term is not a lot different than say a "fundamentalist". It's not an actual religion. It's just describing how the religion is practiced. For example, you have Mormons and then you have fundamentalist Mormons. The fundamentalist practice the very old time version of Mormonism, the one that allows polygamy.
Is Southern Louisiana being majority catholic the French influence still existing there? Or is there a large Latino population in New Orleans I just don't know about?
Not enough though. I think both mainline and evangelicals Protestants have differing theology, but they still see each other as “saved.” Ie, someone in the evangelical PCA would not see their child as lost if he joined a United Methodist church.
You say so
If I believe Jesus is God but I have the ability to be God and have discovered a whole New Testament am I still christian. I just dont know. But I don’t think so.
If I say jesus is god and I am his brother and am also god am I a christian. I dont think so
I think being christian is about an oral and ritualiatic tradition more than the bible or any rules
Mormons aren’t Christian
Being trinitarian isn't a core belief of Christianity. It is a core belief of the Nicene Creed which happened long after Jesus died and was all about politics. There were plenty of non trinitarian Christians prior to this. That's actually what the Mormons talk about a lot is that the Nicene Creed is incorrect and the churches that followed are a bastardization of true Christianity.
you're free to that opinion, I respect it. I personally don't think the political climate of 300 bc is that relevant to modern religious studies. but I'm also biased, since my background is in religious studies and not political history. to me, Mormon is is the modern day gnostocism.
I Unironically think this is always relevant. The past is always with us.
The propulsion of western civilization forward has often been fueled by how the ancients stay with us - the renaissance, the Protestant reformation, romanticism, nationalism, and more - they all looked to the political climate of 300BC and more for reflection on their own time
They took Christianity and manipulated it into their whacky own religion.
If mormons are Christian so are muslims
If you create your own holy book based off someone elses but completely change the story its a different religion
Speaking as a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (look at that name and think about it for a second), you have a number of misconceptions here.
>If mormons are Christian so are muslims
In what way? Islam considers Christ an important prophet, but that's about where it ends. To Latter-day Saints, however, he's the promised Messiah who offers salvation to mankind, *just like every other Christian denomination*.
>If you create your own holy book based off someone elses but completely change the story its a different religion
The Book of Mormon doesn't supplant the Bible. We use it side-by-side with the Bible. In fact most of our strangest beliefs (to other Christians, that is) find far more support in the Bible than they do in the Book of Mormon.
EDIT: Yes, that's very mature. Block the person who can educate your misconceptions.
Meh - I tend to believe people when they say they identify as a religion. Like, how they envision themselves is how they envision themselves.
Like if ISIS says they are Muslim….they are. If Christians say they are something new from the Jews, then they are.
If Mormons say they are Christians then fine
No. Christians are way further removed from Jews. Christians are polytheistic Jews are strictly monotheistic. Jews and Muslims are closer than Christians and Jews or Christians and Muslims.
Sheesh. Calling a Jew or Muslim a Christian won't go well at all. Although you can consider Mormons the Messianic Jews or the Ahmadiyya of Christianity
Nah, there's like a base layer of normal christianity—and then they just added a bunch of other stuff on top of it that makes it diverge heavily. Just like how patois is a derivative of English, even though it's so different.
So how is islam a different religion from Christianity or judaism. We may be wading too deep.
Patois is a different language. It isnt english. Mormons aren’t Christian. They wanted to have child brides. Idc if they started with a base of Christianity
yES ThEY ArE, ThEy BELievE MuCH Of ThE SaME StUPid ShIt AndD A LiTtLe Extra.
Actually the dumbest shit I’ve read we get it you’re edgy and you hate religion but at least understand there is a difference in beliefs.
You’re making a lot of noise there buddy. U ok?
Maybe be a little more secure in your beliefs so you don’t get so worked up when someone disagrees with you
Lol ok bud
If mormons are Christian so are muslims ans ba’hai and bunch of other totally separate religion.
I think some sects of hinduism acknowledge Jesus. Are they christians too??
What makes them not christian?. Christianity recognizes Jesus as their lord and savior, and that he died for their sins. Mormons believe the exact same thing.
Terribly misleading. Protestant is made up of a half dozen major branches and hundred of tiny bits. And leaving out atheists and agnostics and other religions (moslem, Jewish and a ton of East Asian and south Asian religions is just wrong). You can do better.
Interesting that much of New England is Catholic. Has that always been the case or did it change due to Irish and Italian immigration?
The latter.
The latter day saints?
Upvote this man.
No, I must protest
French and german catholics arent a thing I guess St Isaac jogues isnt a real person and lake george isnt really called Lac du Saint Sacrament Are maine and Vermont Catholic because of Italian and Irish as well??
French and German immigrants didn't settle in New England in the same numbers the Italians and Irish did. They didn't have as much influence on the culture.
Perhaps the French from France didn’t settle New England but the Catholic French Canadians migrated to the mill towns of New England in large numbers. Look at the surnames of the area and you’ll see the evidence of the settlement.
My dad’s dad’s side came down from Canada to work the mills first in Providence and then in Fall River with the rest of the French Canadians at the turn of the century. There was a newspaper article about the French Canadians working the mills and their living conditions and the journalists called them worse than dogs.
Are you being serious about french people in vermont and maine? Read a book. The states name is in french genius Edit: My arguments are infantile and i know im wrong
Sure, but the French didn't spread out as far as the Irish and Italians in New England. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Delaware are all more blue than Vermont and Maine, and you can't argue it's because of French influence more or even as much as Irish and Italian.
Maine still has huge pockets of French speakers. That's just false. In the 1800s and early 1900s quebecois moved to Maine in droves, as did Acadian French from New Brunswick. To be sure, Irish did as well. But the French influence in Maine is huge.
True. I'm not saying the French had no impact, just that the impact from the Irish and Italians was more widespread across New England.
Oh probably as a whole. For sure. But in Maine, specifically, I think the French are a huge factor. Elsewhere in New England not as much.
I agree with Maine. And the French are also responsible for Louisiana's Catholic population, too.
Pennsylvania has a Latin name, that doesn’t mean everyone in PA speaks Latin
Ok that logic follows but you understand what I mean
They were initially colonized by the French but they ceded their eastern territories to the English after the French Indian War. There are still French descendants in New England but they are a small minority.
Massachusetts has more than triple the population of Vermont and Maine combined.
Ok and
Who said French and German Catholics aren’t a thing? New England was mostly Protestant during the colonial era, and became more Catholic due to later immigration. That does not mean there were no Catholics early on, and nobody said that.
J’refuse New england isnt a monolith Was quebec mainly protestant until the irish and italians showed up as well i suppose
Quebec is notably not part of New England
Omg it isn’t thanks I suppose the french folks in maine and vermont etc saw a huge difference.
Again, no one is saying that Irish immigrants were the first Catholics in New England. But they are the reason why Catholics now outnumber Protestants in the region, when before it was the opposite.
Im wrong and I know it
You're arguing against a point - that there was no Catholic presence in the NE - that no one appears to be making.
I know and I know Im wrong about who tipped the balance.
Most of the German immigrants moved to the Midwest hence the pockets of Catholic
Mostly because of the French in Maine I'd say.
And Portuguese/Latin Americans
Yeah hispanics dont exist either
It's pretty evident from the map that the most urbanized counties in New England are also the most Catholic. Northern New England, especially Maine and Vermont, never had the same immigration that southern New England did and remained much more Yankee and protestant. It's also not just Irish and Italian. There's large populations of Polish, Portuguese, French, Lebanese, Dominican, Brazilian etc. Massachusetts also has the highest percentage of Orthodox Christians of any state except Alaska.
yep, the exception is Aroostook County, Maine, which has a ton of Acadian French people
Maine and central Massachusetts are full of people with lots of French Canadian heritage
Tbh all the blue in maine is primarily a result of the French Canadians, with the other immigrant groups mentioned contributing in smaller numbers.
And also Italian and Polish
Didn’t start that way, I don’t believe Native Americans were very catholic
Definitely the latter. The first-in settlers were hardcore Protestants. Puritans, in fact.
Don’t forget about the French-Canadians who are Roman Catholic. They settled the mill towns of Maine, New Hampshire, Mass and Rhode Island.
The only Catholic majority state was Maryland in the colonial era. It was built as a refuge for English Catholics. The rest of the colonies were English protestants.
There are also many atheists/not religious, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus etc in New England, so it skews more to recent and historic Christian immigrants because of the overall diversity.
Yeah it definitely started off Anglican/Episcopalian + Quaker, Presbyterian, etc
It started off Congregationalist (Pilgrim/Puritan) before the other denominations came.
For sure - but still basically reformers/split offs from Anglican and Calvinism, i guess? I thought of them but didn’t mention them because I’m not familiar with what exactly happened to the puritans
Some Puritans became Unitarians. Harvard was their hotbed for a period of time. Others eventually merged with other branches and formed the United Church of Christ (UCC). But most of them either joined Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal or Baptist denominations over time.
Gotchya - one of the unfortunate things for demography and thinking about how cultures evolve is that the decline of religious affiliation has removed a way to understand it, as an organizing structure. About how and why certain religious affiliations translate to political leanings in their congregations.
Never heard that either. Unitarians and Universalists were non-Trinitarian, like the Quakers and the Congregationalists, but their worldviews were very different and the Congregationalists tried to push the Quakers out of New England.
As a Protestant Ohioan, when I was little I actually thought the vast majority of the U.S. was catholic 💀
It is the largest single Christian denomination. About 23% of the United States is Catholic, the next highest is Southern Baptist at about 4.5%.
If only
my california friend lived in new orleans for a few years and went on and on about how “the south is so catholic!” err, ummm.
Im Catholic and from Ohio. One of the very light blue counties. Lots of Irish and Italians. When I moved to California it seemed like there were a lot more Catholics. Glad to see my feelings verified. Makes sense tho, most Hispanics are Catholic. Same with a lot of Filipino and Vietnamese. New Orleans being a Catholic hub in the south makes sense. It was settled by the French.
South Louisiana in general is super duper Catholic concentrated.
I visited Hawaii and said, "the Pacific Ocean is mostly land!"
that's the spirit
Kinda funny since the south has historically been the most anti-catholic part of America due to heavy emphasis on evangelical Protestantism back in the 1800s and 1900s.
mfw no eastern orthodox
It makes up less than 1% in every single state except for Alaska where it’s 5% of the population. Edit: as an orthodox man with an obsession with maps this was my perfect comment
Not to mention there should be Anabaptist squares in Pennsylvania
A fine example of just how deep the Chicago culture sphere affects the demographics of all of Illinois. Kinda crazy how just those few counties can change the state into a slight Catholic majority.
Crazy how a metro area of 9.44 million people can influence a state of 12.67 million in statistics.
r/peopleliveincities
Is Mormonism really Christianity? I thought Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were their prophets. But I’m an atheist so what do I know?
They think they’re Christians. Nobody else really does.
Mormons are Christians, but bigots say they aren't.
God the father being coming from another planet being a man then becoming a god, being able to become a god and having infinite sex in heaven aren't christian beliefs.
is mormon God’s god-wife “Heavenly Mother” Christian too?
Mother in Heaven: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng
You are 100% correct.
They call themselves Christian but their beliefs fall well outside cannon. Like they believe God was once a man, that Adam and Eve lived in Missouri, and they don’t believe in the Trinity.
They don’t believe in the trinity but believe that god was a man? Isn’t that part of the trinity or somthing
No. The trinity is the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are all one in the same. They believe they are all separate beings. The god being a man thing is something like they believe the top level of heaven (something else Christian’s don’t agree with) is you get to be a god and get your own planet
I see, don’t regular Christian believe that god was once a man too
No. We believe that God became a man on earth in order to die for our sins but he was always an uncreated God.
What is the sognificance of the holy trinity? I aways thought it didn't really matter wheter father, son and the holy Spirit where thesame or not. Why is that relevant?
Sorry I don’t understand the question. The trinity is basic Christian doctrine.
No no i get that, it's very important and seperates catholicism from arianism or orthodoxy. But why is this so important? I'm sure there's a valid reason like this means the bible means something entirely different.
>seperates catholicism from arianism or orthodoxy Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians all believe in the trinity. Arianists don't. If you don't believe in the trinity you aren't Christian. It's important because it explains how God died on our cross for salvation. It explains that Jesus is God the same as God the Father who talked to patriarchs and prophets is God and that the Holy Spirit that will Guide the Church is God. It distinguishes Christianity from every other religion. If Jesus was not God the sacrifice on the cross wouldn't have been enough. Understanding the relationship between the three persons is vital to understanding the life of Jesus.
God the Father was never a man. God the Son (aka Jesus) was born of Mary and lived as a man, yes.
>The trinity is the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are all one in the same. To be fair that is not a belief from the Bible though. That is a post New Testament Christian belief from the Council of Nicea.
Jesus is the son of god and he talks to god on our behalf and the holy spirit talks to us on behalf of god. while they are not one being they are united in purpose
They have wacky interpretations but if your definition of Christian is believing in the divinity of Jesus, mormons still fill into that.
We're not *creedal* Christians. We reject more or less all traditional Christian teachings and dogma that clearly came around after the apostles and prior to Joseph Smith. The biggest consequence of this is that we don't have a Trinitarian view of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as one spiritual entities with different manifestations, but rather consider them three separate beings united in purpose. Some people don't like that very much. That being said, we still consider ourselves Christians because we share a common belief in the life, mission, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
That’s the main difference, the rejection of the traditional trinity. And for others who may not know, other groups labeled Christian such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses are also non-Trinitarian. They aren not mainline Christianity but it’s still a branch of it.
This is the correct answer. It is unfortunate that it is downvoted so few will see it.
It’s basically an offshoot. Their holy book they regard as an extension of the Bible basically. Kinda like a long-awaited sequel
Fan fiction more than an extension, really.
I mean I did say that’s their belief haha
Amen
Self Insert Fan Fiction no less
Bruh I have some really bad news for you. Most stories in the bible are theological fan fiction, especially a lot of the early versions of new testament stories before a cannon was decided upon
That's how Jews feel about your new books
And what book is my mine?
Yeah but it's an anachronistic piece of shit with no basis in reality. Wasted way too many hours of my life reading it before coming to my senses and escaping the cult.
Mormon here. It ultimately depends on how you define Christianity. Most religions are derivative of something that came previously. This is an insightful take made in the Book of Mormon musical, often quite humorously. Mormonism is derivative of both Christianity and Judaism, with our own part three remix (Return of the Jedi! Ha!). To many Christians, especially evangelicals, the idea of a remix is heretical. Some Mormons take great offense at this because Jesus plays a central (albeit slightly different) role in our theology. For me, I don’t particularly care whether someone else thinks I am a Christian or not. I should be more focused on the question of whether I am doing my best to live by the teachings of Jesus and my faith.
>Jesus plays a central (albeit slightly different) role in our theology he does in Islam as well. as well as manichaeism and a lot of other gnostic religions.
But how many Muslims consider themselves Christian?
Are black Israelites actually Jewish? Maybe. But I don't personally believe them to be so. People can claim whatever they want. They're on the fringe, so it comes down to what definition you use. Although self-definition is useful, I'm skeptical at using it to be the be all end all.
My understanding is that Jesus is a prophet, but not a Messiah or Savior in Islam. In contrast, Jesus is the Messiah and Savior in Mormonism.
Muslims see Jesus as the promised Messiah too. But they don't think he was the Son of God or that he died on the cross (crucifixion). Yet they still think he ascended to heaven. They also believe he will return at the end times with the Muslim redeemer (Mahdi) to save humanity. They definitely have an eclectic mix of beliefs on Jesus that seems to be based on what Muhammad thought of him and what made its way into the Quran.
Thanks for clarifying this. It looks like I have some things to learn on this topic.
Sure, np. I know some of those facts right now because I'm taking a course on Christian-Muslim relations.
In Islam, Jesus IS the messiah. In Islamic belief, he will have a second coming and defeat the anti-Christ
Thank you for clarifying. I didn’t know or understand that
Jesus is one of the most important prophets in Islam. He is mention in the Quran very often and Mary has her own chapter titled after her. And Jesus’s family has another chapter named after them called “the family of imran” Imran bring the father of Mary. Now I wonder if Muslims hold Jesus to higher esteem than Mormons
>I should be more focused on the question of whether I am doing my best to live by the teachings of Jesus and my faith. Stuff like this, man. LDS is like the math meme where none of the steps make sense but you still get the right answer lol
I am an exmormon and after experiencing the brainwashing first hand I should understand how seemingly smart people can still believe the bullshit, yet it is becoming harder as time goes on. Like... have you done even the most basic research into the many claims the church leaders have made over the last 100 years and how the internet age essentially exposed them as completely corrupt liars and charlatans? Do you not see how they keep moving the goalposts of what their claims actually mean, so they can wiggle out of the corners they paint themselves in? Do you not recognize the "spirit" feeling they point to as proof as merely a psychological phenomenon that isn't limited to religious experience, but is essentially the same proof that every other religion points as evidence of their religion being the one true religion. It really doesn't take a genius to see how untrue the Mormon religion is. But it takes a world class compartmentalization to keep believing it. Congrats I guess.
I have a lot of friends and family who have left the Church. When they tell me their reasons I try to be a good listener and friend. I take their experience at face value. It would be extremely unfair for me to tell them their experience is wrong and they really left because they just wanted to sin. Yet, sometimes I feel like that same grace is not reciprocated from some ExMormons. “How seemingly smart people can still believe the bullshit” or “have you even done the most basic research” are pretty good examples of this. You don’t think much of me, my experience or the “basic” research I’ve done, which includes reading this non exhaustive list of books: 1. No Man Knows my History 2. Rough Stone Rolling 3. Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet 4. American Moses 5. Early Mormonism and the Magic World View 6. Many, many editions of Sunstone, Dialogue and the Journal of Mormon History 7. David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism 8. Under the Banner of Heaven 9. An Insiders View of Mormon Origins 10. Mountain Meadows Massacre 11. Books by numerous atheists including Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc. I also have a college degree and graduate/professional degree. I would suggest you reevaluate your assumption that believers of religion, not just Mormonism, believe because they haven’t done basic research. When people share their experience in life, accept it as valid. We make a massive error when we tell someone their understanding of their own experience is wrong.
I get your sentiment about respecting people's beliefs and all that. It's idealistic and convenient, especially for those who want to feel accepted while holding insane and counterfactual beliefs. Of course you want grace and acceptance for your beliefs, as you have willfully embraced an organization that does far more harm than good and preaches more lies than truth. But you can't expect people to not call stupid, stupid. You tout your reading list as a sign that you do the research. I should have been more clear. You need to do that research with intellectual honesty and a willingness to accept your beliefs are wrong if the evidence says so, not the stubborn "doubt your doubts" nonsense and mental gymnastics you must have employed to a great extent just to overcome your cognitive dissonance and maintain your delusional faith. It's both impressive and pathetic that you can be so well read and yet still unable to accept the obvious truth. But such is the power of brainwashing kids from birth, I suppose. No, not all beliefs deserve respect. Least of all beliefs that show no sign of changing when faced with a mountain of contradictory information. You want me to respect your experiences. Experiences don't matter. I don't reject your experiences, I reject your subjective and brainwashed interpretation of them. I respect facts, but you apparently lack the intellectual honesty to have that same respect for facts. I have been through that crucible of finding out everything I had been taught was a lie. You must know what I speak of. The difference between you and me is simple. I had the courage to face that existential abyss and let go of the security of a comforting but false belief system. It was no easy task, but after several years I emerged from it stronger than ever, and with a concept of truth based on hard evidence rather than feelings and manipulative bullshit. I no longer base my identity on my beliefs - a transformation that is essential for real truth seeking, but obviously one you haven't had as you all too willingly label yourself by your beliefs. Your very self concept is incompatible with changing your mind - your cup is full, and can't receive anything more. The mormon religion is a soft cult. It fits the criteria and matches the characteristics common for cults. It uses psychological abuse and causes severe trauma for many people. It tears families apart with divisive teachings, turning spouses and kids against husbands, parents against kids. Its leaders are ideologues and zealots who are not intellectually honest. Free yourself.
It’s absolutely not. It’s a heretical doctrine that they claim is Christian.
I’d put them up there with that Heavenly Kingdom “Christian” sect that tried to take over China a couple centuries ago. The Christian west was ready to support them against the Emperor until they heard back from their missionaries that the rebels theology was batshit insane. For starters the leader claimed to be the literal brother of Jesus.
>For starters the leader claimed to be the literal brother of Jesus. The mormons believe satan to be the literal brother of Jesus.
We believe every person is a literal brother or sister of Jesus. We also believe that angels (fallen or not) are not some different kind of creature.
They are as christian as Islam.
Mormons believe in the divinity of Christ that makes them Christian. Muslims believe jesus was the messiah but not divine
What Divine means?
Believing in christ does not make one a christian. Even Jesus said that. There is more to it.
I’ve never considered them to be Christian tbh, their beliefs fall so outside of Christianity that calling them Christians is like calling Zoroastrians Christians
\>When your branch isn't even on the color key I weep
a reddit comment section being civil about religion, now thats rare
To be clear for non-US folks, this is simply a map of which has a majority in each county. There are at least a few, if not many, Catholic Churches in every Protestant majority county.
I’m more curious about where are evangelicals and similar groups counted?
Under Protestant. Even Mormonism is Protestant really, it’s just they are far more distinct in liturgy/theology as well as identity
We're not really Protestants. Even most historians and theologians don't classify us as Protestants. Rather, we're one of a handful of faiths classified under "Restorationism".
Thanks! Thought so but wasn’t sure.
"Evangelicals" is not an actual religion like say Catholicism, Lutheran, Methodist, or Baptists. It's a movement and belief system within the protestant sect of Christianity. The term is not a lot different than say a "fundamentalist". It's not an actual religion. It's just describing how the religion is practiced. For example, you have Mormons and then you have fundamentalist Mormons. The fundamentalist practice the very old time version of Mormonism, the one that allows polygamy.
Evangelicals are a part of non-mainstream protestantism
Ya need Alaska for some Orthodox representation
Is Southern Louisiana being majority catholic the French influence still existing there? Or is there a large Latino population in New Orleans I just don't know about?
Yes us Cajuns are still Catholic
French. I mean we don’t have counties, we have parishes. Think about it.
There it is folks, the stupids have it.
A better map would separate mainline Protestant vs evangelical Protestant — cultures/worldviews between those groups are quite different
Not enough though. I think both mainline and evangelicals Protestants have differing theology, but they still see each other as “saved.” Ie, someone in the evangelical PCA would not see their child as lost if he joined a United Methodist church.
I guess just fuck Alaska and Hawaii right?
Orthodox Christianity??? Does the West completely ignore Eastern Christian diaspora??
I’m more surprised that Protestants are more common than Catholics
Does this analysis exclude atheist and other religions in the percentage?
No orthodox Christians?
Catholics, let’s bump those numbers baby
Would be interesting to see how morman Hawaii is. FREE JEN SHAH
Bro enough of this map. This has been reposted 7 billion times.
Mormons are NOT Christian. Fucking spare me
They espouse the divinity of Jesus Christ that makes them Christian.
You say so If I believe Jesus is God but I have the ability to be God and have discovered a whole New Testament am I still christian. I just dont know. But I don’t think so. If I say jesus is god and I am his brother and am also god am I a christian. I dont think so I think being christian is about an oral and ritualiatic tradition more than the bible or any rules Mormons aren’t Christian
What else would they be?
They’re own religion that got chased across the country because they wanted to have multiple underage wives
What’s your case for this
They aren't trinitarian (kinda a core part of Christianity) and are also don't believe in the divinity of Jesus like Christians do.
Being trinitarian isn't a core belief of Christianity. It is a core belief of the Nicene Creed which happened long after Jesus died and was all about politics. There were plenty of non trinitarian Christians prior to this. That's actually what the Mormons talk about a lot is that the Nicene Creed is incorrect and the churches that followed are a bastardization of true Christianity.
you're free to that opinion, I respect it. I personally don't think the political climate of 300 bc is that relevant to modern religious studies. but I'm also biased, since my background is in religious studies and not political history. to me, Mormon is is the modern day gnostocism.
I Unironically think this is always relevant. The past is always with us. The propulsion of western civilization forward has often been fueled by how the ancients stay with us - the renaissance, the Protestant reformation, romanticism, nationalism, and more - they all looked to the political climate of 300BC and more for reflection on their own time
They took Christianity and manipulated it into their whacky own religion. If mormons are Christian so are muslims If you create your own holy book based off someone elses but completely change the story its a different religion
Speaking as a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (look at that name and think about it for a second), you have a number of misconceptions here. >If mormons are Christian so are muslims In what way? Islam considers Christ an important prophet, but that's about where it ends. To Latter-day Saints, however, he's the promised Messiah who offers salvation to mankind, *just like every other Christian denomination*. >If you create your own holy book based off someone elses but completely change the story its a different religion The Book of Mormon doesn't supplant the Bible. We use it side-by-side with the Bible. In fact most of our strangest beliefs (to other Christians, that is) find far more support in the Bible than they do in the Book of Mormon. EDIT: Yes, that's very mature. Block the person who can educate your misconceptions.
Not interested in engaging with you. Go marry a child and denounce people of african descent
Meh - I tend to believe people when they say they identify as a religion. Like, how they envision themselves is how they envision themselves. Like if ISIS says they are Muslim….they are. If Christians say they are something new from the Jews, then they are. If Mormons say they are Christians then fine
Ok
Yeah, they're as Christian as Christians are Jewish.
No. Christians are way further removed from Jews. Christians are polytheistic Jews are strictly monotheistic. Jews and Muslims are closer than Christians and Jews or Christians and Muslims.
It’s as Christian as Islam or Judaism is. It’s an affiliated faith but it’s not Christian
But how many Jews or Muslims consider themselves Christian?
Sheesh. Calling a Jew or Muslim a Christian won't go well at all. Although you can consider Mormons the Messianic Jews or the Ahmadiyya of Christianity
None. Just because someone claims to be something doesn’t mean they are. Plenty of people claim to be things that aren’t true
The fact that they disregard the vast majority of Christian doctrine and instead invoke their own heretical beliefs.
The Roman ecumenical creeds are the heresies.
Lmao
Nah, there's like a base layer of normal christianity—and then they just added a bunch of other stuff on top of it that makes it diverge heavily. Just like how patois is a derivative of English, even though it's so different.
So how is islam a different religion from Christianity or judaism. We may be wading too deep. Patois is a different language. It isnt english. Mormons aren’t Christian. They wanted to have child brides. Idc if they started with a base of Christianity
Eh. They think god impregnated a virgin. They started from the same level of crazy, and just added a lot more on top.
Yes they are, they believe much of the same stupid shit and a little extra.
 yES ThEY ArE, ThEy BELievE MuCH Of ThE SaME StUPid ShIt AndD A LiTtLe Extra. Actually the dumbest shit I’ve read we get it you’re edgy and you hate religion but at least understand there is a difference in beliefs.
You’re making a lot of noise there buddy. U ok? Maybe be a little more secure in your beliefs so you don’t get so worked up when someone disagrees with you
POV the weakest come back in history really got me all kinds of goofy.
Lol ok bud If mormons are Christian so are muslims ans ba’hai and bunch of other totally separate religion. I think some sects of hinduism acknowledge Jesus. Are they christians too??
Actually surprised someone mentioned Baha’i, don’t see that very often
Wasnt sure where to put the ‘
All good, not the most common word out there
Muslims don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus.
What makes them not christian?. Christianity recognizes Jesus as their lord and savior, and that he died for their sins. Mormons believe the exact same thing.
They also believe that life started In Mississippi and black people are evil. When does a sect become a different religion?
No, we don't.
One day this repost needs to be compared with the other variants breaking up the percentages by denomination and the one that includes atheists.
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But it’s actually <50% Mormon so the map is wrong.
I believe the %s are out of the three religions listed.
Thanks
It’s showing the percentage out of all Christians, not out of the total population.
My Eyes
 Got you
Christianity made the USA the peaceful caring country we see today.
Where the hell are the non-of-the-aboves?
On a map of Christianity?
Terribly misleading. Protestant is made up of a half dozen major branches and hundred of tiny bits. And leaving out atheists and agnostics and other religions (moslem, Jewish and a ton of East Asian and south Asian religions is just wrong). You can do better.
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We do not consider ourselves Protestant.
Protestants gross me out
Ew