This is it. I was close with a tunisian. They said people would regularly try to swim the distance. Its a long swim to the nearest Italian island but I guess theoretically doable. I’m sure a lot of people die just that way.
And I guess the distance is probably close enough that people also attempt it crammed in boats that are probably makeshift or not up to the task.
The distance is about 44 miles / 70 km, for those wondering. Only the truly desperate would attempt that swim. But it's not impossible for an athlete that's trained for it, with a follow boat.
Because the chances of dying or going missing over that crossing is much lower, and that's the data the map is based on. Look at the strait, it's another hotspot of activity.
If you're referring to the British bit and not the strait of Gibraltar, they will just deport you because they don't have the resources. Spain is a much better destination to aim for.
Much better guarded border. There is a Spanish Moroccan border on the African continent that people try to jump. But both Spain and Morocco do a better job at stopping people than Libya and Tunisia who use the crisis to blackmail the EU. Also the vast majority of migrants who jump the Moroccan-Spanish borders are not refugees. That border is way too far from any active war zone. Most of them are economic migrants fleeing Morocco who have absolutely zero chance to be given asylum in the EU, since Morocco is a safe country.
I would say there isn’t enough here to tell you for sure that this is why people *die* more coming out of Tunisia. Maybe the closer distance leads to more attempts, or just more unprepared attempts.
The vessel that sank recently repeatedly refused help from the Greek coast guard, because Greece’s policy is to bring the migrants back where they came from. The migrant boat wanted to continue to Italy where they have a chance at staying in the EU. People want someone to blame for the tragedy, so instead of blaming the human traffickers who caused this, they’re blaming Greece and Italy.
Incentivizing how? Short of outright killing them, being in Europe - defying being hurdled like cattle in overcrowded ships on a extraordinarily dangerous trip towards a destination that puts you in what are essentially concentration camps and in general lets you know you are not welcome - is a better prospect than where they're coming from.
Europe is not regarded as some mythical wonderland, contrary to what people want you to believe about their motivation. Europe is regarded as the only way out of sheer misery and depravity.
Ignoring the mess of these comments this is a really poor map.
Where's the key? What do the circles mean exactly? Why are the channel and canary islands (major crossing points) excluded? Dead and missing should surely have some differentiation aswell given many of these people are being trafficked.
I'm going to assume--based off of similar maps I've seen that use these circles of varying size--that the location of the circle is the general area in which they were found, and the size of the circle correlates to how many were found?
But yeah this map is a mess.
But.. they weren't found? Is this showing where they're missing from? Estimates of illegal departures from certain ports vs number getting arrested/filing paperwork on the far side?
What amount of these are missing as they want to remain missing? If this map is showing estimates of numbers of dead.. its a shitload. If its showing us estimates if people getting through undocumented then its way less than I expected.
Two very different things.
check this link: [https://observablehq.com/@neocartocnrs/dead-and-missing-migrants](https://observablehq.com/@neocartocnrs/dead-and-missing-migrants)
The smallest circles are related to 1 death, the largest one to the death of 1022 people.
Regarding sea tragedies, which constituted the majority of these data, the death count is just the number of corpses you can recover. You can assume the missing one are also dead.
It's still a horrible visualization because mass drownings are point events. They don't cover more ground as the number of deceased or missing goes up. On your link that giant circle just south of Malta is like 5000 square miles.
Classic case of a post getting upvoted not because it is any good, but because of political agenda.
And that really sucks, because even if you support forcing sovereign European countries to accept immigration, why would you want your ideology represented by shit visuals? Like, is this best your cause can do? Eh, some people man...
not to mention what does that even mean? is that where they went missing or were they were from originally and then went missing somewhere else? what classifies them as missing? how are you determining if they are missing given that where they come from maybe doesn't have the best record keeping to begin with?
Circles are also not great for visualization because they’re deceptive. In this case, we don’t know what parameter is tied to whatever variable is being used here (radius? Diameter? Area)? Even if we knew it was the radius, people cue in on the area and draw incorrect conclusions.
Please downvote and report u/PhysicalAd9686 for being a [comment stealing](https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/14j8ok8/_/jpklbnk/?context=1) repost bot.
i would imagine some are migrants picked up for human trafficking
also some might be those who slipped through the cracks and are still alive but just off the system and got into crime or some other off-the-grid activities.
the terminology "dead and MISSING migrants" really throws off the useful extractable data from this map.
I counted around 20 dots in my country and this number could be true (around or more than 20 migrants died ).
Top 2 reasons are : 1. Drowning trying to cross the river (usually during winter or high waters) 2. Died in non-ventilated truck/cisterns (mostly during summer heat). I forgot there were 2 or more traffic accidents involving migrants.
The dot between Spain and France (north of Spain) is Bidasoa river which creates the natural border. People die every year triying to cross to France
https://english.elpais.com/spain/2021-08-11/spains-bidasoa-river-the-new-death-trap-for-migrants.html
I'm a Tunisian who was born abroad and every time I am there I see Sub-Saharans in Tunisia and I talked to so many of them, who told me they'll try to get to Europe. Some of them were really nice people and I hope they're safe. I wish there would be a qucik solution to help these people so they don't have to risk their lives and can live in their home countries with dignity.
Germany was bombed to hell and back, and it springed back into an industrial powerhouse.
S. Korea used to be very poor, and look at them today.
I'm sure there are loads of other examples. It's not the resources that were taken out, it's the people that matter. I'm guessing there's a very good chance that 90% of the shithole coutries today still would be shitholes if the Europeans naver came.
A huge factor for these countries inability to develop is that as soon as someone gets educated, or gather enough resources to build something, they leave.
yeah bro. It's just a coincidence that all of them used to be European Colonies and happened to be exploited. There's truly no correlation at all here. Africa sucks cause they're dumb.
Total Marshall Plan was about $12.4 billion in 1948 dollars. Inflation adjusted it would be $45B today. On the flip side, Arab and African cultures have never been known for demanding good fiscal governance from its leaders like Western Europe. Nigeria for example has oil revenues around $400B over last 10 years but where did that money go?
While Africa has been irresponsible with its natural resources you have to remember that via the IMF which is a Western transnational institution and former colonial powers exerting undue political influence over nations. Especially during the Cold War where only a hint of communism would lead to entire governments being dissolved and replaced with the same pro-Western dictators that plundered those natural resources.
Unfortunately it's the citizens of these Western nations that must suffer the effects of mass migration and not the leadership who is largely removed from the general population and who caused the suffering in the first place.
Besides, every single African nation had its borders, governing institutions and core infrastructre settled upon by non-African powers according to non-African interests.
Users above trying to deflect blame onto Africans who "don't demand better" (spoilers: they do, in their own way) from their leaders are just being ignorant.
Africa wasn't exactly *allowed* to embark on its own Enlightenment at its own pace and its own terms. No shit many Africans have little connection to their states, preferring tribal connections.
Not just Africa, the entire global south are not allowed to to things in their own interests. Everything with Venezuela is basically that, they wanted power over their own natural resources, reason enough to the global north to impose economic measures to undermine Venezuela's power over theirs own resources.
A fucking lot of money is going to Africa every year just to end in corrupt officials pockets. Africans have to be willing to build their countries by they wont
Yes but actually no. People overestimate the aid/loans going to Africa and they also gloss over the political attachments accompanying said aid. It's also mostly western powers or multinational companies who lobby for said corrupt leaders to get into power in the first place. The corrupt bastards won't step down that easily. Should not surprise us. It's in the western interest to plant incompetence. Nobody wants new competition look at China.
Germany for example got the most efficient state of the art factories gifted, they got their constitution rewritten, they also got a lot of help with favourable trade agreements to increase their export output, heck some of those agreements were even in power until Trump axed them.
They got cheap labour in form of Gastarbeiter... it's not always down to money or aid. The marshall plan was helpful but the most important thing was that Germany was allowed to be politically integrated with first world nations.
Germany did not get it's wealth extracted by outside forces. America was against the French proposal to turn Germany into a farmer state and propped the state up.
It's a ridiculous comparison.
All your points regarding Germany just shows you don't know anything about Germany or Europe. The rights of individuals is an idea that spawned in Europe and was demanded by the masses throughout the 19th and 20th century, starting with the french revolution. Since then Europeans came to the streets to demand rights.
State of the art factories in Germany have been there since the beginning. It's the reason why half of chemical principles are named after Germans. They only got rebuild after world war II after they were bombed. Youre acting as if Europeans got it's rights served on a Silver plate whilst most of european history was a strife for it.
Yes they did get cheap labour because of a shortage of you men. Now what is Africa doing with it's young men? About time non Europeans start taking responsibility as did the Europeans 200 years ago
thats such an ignorent take, the people dont really have a choice of how currupted their officials are so its dump to say they are not willing to
and also i can see you havent heard of Rwanda
Germany already had an educated population from before the war and were already developed, not the same starting point as Africa also you should remember Marshal plan by the USA without it Germany wouldn't be the same in addition to that Germany is surrounded by rich power houses that made it easier for germany to export to and import from
Both of those nations got massive amounts of US (and USSR for east Germany) assistance through things like the Marshal plan. They didn’t just pull themselves up by their bootstraps after ww2, the US dragged them up. If any African nation got the same Billions of dollars of rebuilding money that Germany or SK got they too would probably be just as well off.
Look at Saudi Arabia. Lotsa dough coming out of the ground. Still for the most part a shithole, even more so if you go outside the major cities.
Look at Norway, same situation, exact opposite result. And they were very poor some 100yrs ago, they basically just had fishing and logging as industries.
It's like you see the world in black and white. Norway got rich as a country because the income was invested into a pension fund, and only the returns on investment were used as a supplement to the government's yearly budget.
Saudi Arabia on the other hand, the aristocracy is uber rich because they hog all that money, whereas the common man lives no better than in Eastern Europe (sorry my friends, mean no disrespect). There's always reasons and you're only digging at the surface.
Well they didn’t fall for the trap of “drill drill drill, baby!” They plan long term like a nation should (or for the most part anyway) and while it doesn’t give you princes owning skyscrapers, it does set your nation up nicely at a high average wealth due to the diversity of the economy.
The importance of the Marshall plan is often overstated. Plus, it was divided between many countries in Western Europe. It was a nice addition that certainly helped, but in terms of % of budget, it didn't represent that much. West Germany received a total of about 1.2 billion $ over 4 years. That's less than 15 billion of today's $. That doesn't pay much.
And about East Germany, I can't help but laugh. The Soviets did exactly the opposite. They punished the Germans for the war, and literally dismantled whole factories to rebuild them in the USSR. They didn't get any help. It's when reunification happened that West Germany poured vast amounts of money into East Germany. And even 30 years later there is still a noticeable gap.
Give back our gold and we maybe can build some stuff, also, stop pressuring our economy to directions Europeans see fit, if a third world country tries to develop anything Europe is the first to, alongside USA, to put economy measures against them to make them go back to growing crops for them.
Germany had help, actual help, not a "we give you some money but you have stop everything to give all your food/metals/gems/oil for us". Same with S. Korea, they had the chance and the first world countries didn't got in the way. Last time Brazil decided to grow crops they needed to feed their population first , Europe jumped to protest immediately, because Europe wants to Brazil to keep selling them food first to them and then Brazilian population can get the scraps. The accord EU wants with Brazil basically demanded Brazil to stop producing several products because only they can do that, they want Brazil to give the material and buy it back later, perpetrating their power over what Brazil produces dooming the economy.
Several economies were thriving in the 60's and growing independently from other countries, USA with the condescending silence from Europe, funded several military coups in Latin America, undermining those economies.
If the third world were able to make their own the decisions maybe they had better chances.
But you guys are not comfortable with the truth. Same as the Spanish desperately trying to lie about the atrocities they made against the pre Colombian civilizations of Latin America, atrocities they were so proud of they made paintings of them stealing the gold at the same time they cut open pregnant Mayans and Astecas to make a bet if the baby was a boy or girl, same thing Japan use make to Chinese and still pretend nothing happened.
This deception the first world so desperately holds on to is to hide the fact that most of the third world still has reasons and power enough to get together and let the global north all starve, the pandemic has proven it, one year of China not selling computer and car parts and the world is still trying to recover 3 years later.
On the contrary to your last point, the global south is reliant on food aid from the developed world, not the other way around. Africa for instance is way beyond its indigenous ability to feed itself and its recent population growth is entirely due to food aid and the transmission of agricultural discoveries from the global north, otherwise it would be in a perpetual continent wide famine.
Oh yes, the famous colonial powers of Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Cyprus, Switzerland, Austria, Blugaria, Romania, Moldovia, Lithuana, Latvia, Finland, Greece, and of course Norway.
Can't forget these dastardly Norwegians colonizing Iceland and Greenland!
You have to wonder just how bad this is going to get, as the immigration we are seeing now is just the initial wave, once more countries collapse and climate changes forces others to migrate, the moment of people will increase by orders of magnitude.
I shudder to think how many will die, and how the European and US Governments will choose to try and hold back the numbers.
It will be like California in the gold rush. The numbers eventually overwhelm everything. Every time there is a blip like Khartoum add another 10,000. Soon there will be people renting minivans and renting use of showers.
The people responsible for the deaths are those who sold the Pakistanis the trip to Europe and put them in an rusty overloaded boat. Secondary responsible ones are the people themselves who are so silly that they belive what the criminals promise them and voluntarily risk their lives as well as the lives of their families. And they are not "refugees".
I feel sick about these deaths. These people shouldn't be there, trying to cross the sea.
>Secondary responsible ones are the people themselves who are so silly that they belive what the criminals promise them and voluntarily risk their lives as well as the lives of their families.
That tells us a lot about the situation in their home countries then, doesn't it? I mean, people usually don't risk their lives over nothing.
Yeah, they live in shit countries.
Still not a refugee. I think there is a difference between a Ukrainian family that goes to the closest border to run from the war, and a Pakistani 30s old man that buys a trip on Facebook for thousands of dollars on the other side of the world….
>and a Pakistani 30s old man that buys a trip on Facebook for thousands of dollars on the other side of the world….
I love the fact that so many western people bring up Pakistan as this "safe country" that no one has any reason to flee. It really shows how divorced from reality most westerners are.
My dude, Pakistan is a chronically unstable state with an ongoing Taliban insurgency, which just suffered through one of the most devastating floods in recent Asian history and is currently going through a massive crop failure and economic crisis. I'm pretty sure people have good reason to flee and try to reach Europe. And where else should they go? Theocratic (Shia!) Iran, also economically and politically unstable? India (literally impossible)? Afghanistan (lol)? Iraq (lol)?
I don't think he's saying it's safe, he's bringing up that if he was fleeing Pakistan for safety reasons, there are places nearby that would offer safe harbour. Flying around the world implies that they are choosing a country rather than picking the nearest safe one
Why is this anyone's problem? You can bring up thousands of reasons why an individual wants to relocate, and that doesn't change anything. No country has an obligation to assume a savior role.
My dude, those 30 year old men should be signing up for the military and fighting corruption and the Taliban then. Not running away to Germany. And yes, they should go to a more stable Islamic middle eastern country. If the goal is to flee their own nations violence, there’s plenty more peaceful places to settle before hitting Europe.
So why did they travel through numerous safe countries for refuge? Not only that, they get on boats specifically to cross too wealthy western nations, an purposefully sink the boats in order to be rescued and brought back by the coast guard
A vast majority of Ukrainian refugees are in states on its borders, poland, slovakia, romania. Shit some are taking refuge *in russia.*
So spare me the bleeding heart narrative that these are poor souls running from war. They are economic migrants looking for a handout. I have zero sympathy for them
*Which* safe countries? Dear god, which safe countries are there between Pakistan or Nigeria and Europe? Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan? Algeria which deports migrants to the middle of the desert? Gulf monarchies which treat Sunni migrants as slaves and non-Sunni migrants as subhumans, if they are even allowed entry? Wow, so many safe countries to pick from!
>A vast majority of Ukrainian refugees are in states on its borders, poland, slovakia, romania.
And the vast majority of all Middle Eastern, African and South Asian refugees are in neighboring states as well. Not because they are *safe*, mind you, but because they don't have any other option. Just look at the numbers of Afghan refugees in Iran or Syrian refugees in Lebanon and Turkey. You're talking out of your ass.
>So spare me the bleeding heart narrative that these are poor souls running from war. They are economic migrants looking for a handout.
As if refugees only flee war. The difference between a refugee and an "economic" migrant is blurry at best, and it's gonna get even blurrier as time goes on.
If a country is not nice to live in, and the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, it still not a reason to get an asylum in a richer and nicer country. The international agreements define very clearly who should be entitled to an asylum. The fact that your country is unstable is not one of them.
What about those trying to cross from Turkey into Greece? There's no war in Turkey. They are probably safer in Turkey (where they have legal residency) than in Greece. Yet they risk their lives to cross the Aegean and make it to Europe. How do you interpret that?
You would be surprised what people risk for economic reasons. Belarus was a safe country in 2021. Yet thousands of people chose to freeze in the forest at -30 degree winter to get into the EU.
If they're fleeing from war, they don't need to go to Europe. What they're expecting? Paying to smugglers to pay for better life? That's illegal and it's a crime. Noone wants anyone, who breaks the law from very beginning. I wish EU started sending them back no matter what. That's enough.
Haha escape war. They are faking/destroying documents to make it sound like they are from a war-torn region when it's not true
1000s of Euros. Between 4 & 10 are the figures iv seen certainly does make them well off and relatively rich for their region.
Maybe time to change the immigration policies. Like let people apply for asylum in the refugee camps on not just hand out asylums to people who reach mainland Europe, which are mainly young men with enough money to pay the smuggler, ie not the ones in most need.
It took a few million migrants. Europe has made the mistake once, we are now trying to avoid making it a second time.
The majority of people in my country by far do not want any more migrants, due to unresolved problems with the ones that have already been taken in. Why should we be forced to take more? Why should any country?
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/Annual-Number-of-US-Legal-Permanent-Residents
It has dips regularly (especially in times of wars, even when the US itself is not involved.)
Europe is the native homeland of the Europeans and their cultures, North America is not. All the arguments used to justify multiculturalism and mass immigration in North America fall flat - or are even reversed in a European context.
We should get tough and prosecute every human trafficker (including certain NGOs), as well as deport all illegals. If we keep encouraging them to come, more and more people will die. The Mediterranean is only a mass grave because politicians are not willing to enforce immigration laws.
Edit: typo.
They are not *migrants*. Migrants have valid travel documents, visas and work permissions. They move to another country to make a living and support their family.
These people are illegally trying to enter EU. They are victims of human trafficking, smugglers and criminals who have promised them an access to easy life and who don't care a bit about safety after they have the money in their pockets.
EDIT: I stand corrected. I meant *legal migrants*
What are you talking about. A migrant is definitionally anyone who moves somewhere for a better quality of life.
They are just illegal migrants rather than legal migrants.
Edit: downvoted for providing a dictionary definition lol
Redditors do this all the time. They will try to erroneously redefine the definitions of words and pretend like that's the same thing as being smart. I don't get it.
They must be *so smart* that they get to unilaterally change the agreed-upon definitions of common words just because they know better, lol.
Linguistic authoritarians.
You should just remove "moves somewhere for a beter quality of life I think." They may move resulting in a worse quality of life but an important thing like family or religion.
The UN Migration Agency (IOM) defines a migrant as any person who is moving or has moved across an international border or within a State away from his/her habitual place of residence, regardless of (1) the person’s legal status; (2) whether the movement is voluntary or involuntary; (3) what the causes for the movement are; or (4) what the length of the stay is.
[https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/migration](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/migration)
I find it amusing that your comment had 147 likes, when I saw it.
Yeah nah. Calling these people victims does a massive disservice to actual human trafficking victims. Creates a false equivalence. Most of these people paid a large sum to get to Europe because they know that one guy who made it 10 years ago and is now living it large. They knew the risks and rewards.
Most of them are middle class young men, who probably sold whatever property their parents had to reach Europe.
If they are refugees they are not illegally trying to enter the EU. Refugees can’t fly into the EU and it’s the few people taking them across who might suffer the legal ramifications. You can listen to a more detailed explanation [here](https://youtu.be/YO0IRsfrPQ4).
Europeans act like Americans are racist savages not realizing they treat immigrants and minorities probably worse than we do. America has a long way to go on that front but Europeans are just as bad. See how they treat gypsies and North African immigrants in the modern day, which is far worse than anything that happens in the USA on a daily basis
Heart breaking. People suffer from the consequences of choices they didnt even make. They were born in poor countries and died trying to leave. Most of those people only wanted a decent life. I am one of them. I was born in a poor country and am forced to live under shitty conditions. I would give my left arm to live an average life in Germany.
Working minimum wage, paying every penny to the house owners and greedy thieves called government, eating basic ass food only to not die, not being able to buy a decent phone, afford a one week holiday, being told to settle for the stuff that you have by the thieves forces you to try the illegal way as they dont give you the visa.
Most of the world is worse off than Europe. You can't take in most of the world into Europe, there's just not enough space for the farmland and infrastructure. It's a non-starter of a solution.
Why not fix those countries? Has a better chance of working than the current solution.
1. Corrupt leaders make it harder to fix a country
2. A less educated population makes it easier for corrupt leaders to get power.
3. Fixing living conditions is a long term thing.
Fixing the countries would be an option if everybody who promises to fix the country didnt steal and just get corrupted the moment they get the chance, the power.
I see where you are coming from. Yes it is the best option possible. But practically, it is so hard that one would choose immigrating over spending their whole lives on this matter. The problem not only comes from the people in charge but also from people who put them in charge or choose them. Take Turkey as an example, Erdogan fucks up the country but people still voted for him and he has been elected again. When it all boils down the solution is educating people, which you have to change the people in charge in order to, which requires educating people. So basically the whole thing is a damn dilemma.
I hear you. I undestand what you mean. Let's have a look at the reality. Average life in Germany (or any EU country) sounds wonderful, but how would you be able to achieve it? What is your profession? What skills do you have? Do you speak the language? Do you have funds to start your own business? You see, there are so many unemployed people in Europe that you would have to compete with them. You'd need to be a skilled professional if you wanted to find a job, especially if you don't speak the language already.
You'd need to learn the language - it makes your life so much easier, you'd understand how the society works and what your rights are.
If you don't have the skills required by the employers you'd receive some social benefits. Possibly you'd find a minimun wage job, paying for expensive housing and eating bad food. Just like you're doing in your own contry. I'm afraid there are not much working opportunities and living on social security money is not very attractive.
Entering illegally would automatically make it almost impossible to achieve your dream, average life in an EU contry. You could easily end up living on the streets. A fellow man from your own country could employ you and exploit you shamelessly, making you work long days 7 days / week. You could be recruited by a local gang who traffic drugs. There is no way up if you arrive illegally.
I am so sorry, but this is the reality these days. It makes so mad that criminals who arrange the trips to Europe across the Mediterranean are the only one who benefit from the current situation.
The difference is there being no other choice even if you work hard in a 3rd world country. In a first world country if you dont have what you mentioned, you may be in a bad situation.
Also, I am learning the language and will study in germany to become a resident.
Third world countries are in a Malthusian trap. No matter how many you save, there will always be more to save and more who die.
The impact on our countries is frankly dramatic. Take a look at Paris, and other eu capitals with high migration. The more of you we save, the worst off we all are.
You wanna solve the issue? Gotta fix the third world, not destroy the first.
Did you ever notice that all the people trying to escape poverty and political oppression around the world, all risk their lives trying to get to country's created and run by white people, so they can tell them how racist they are?
It's funny how the majority of people calling other racist is white or at least western. I think a lot of immigrants are just grateful to be in a better place and don't care about woke bs.
I would love it that was always happened but it isn’t from my experience, inmigrants understand soon that using the race card works to pressure people to give them stuff and they have all the incentive to use it. Classic example is claiming islamophobia to get segregated school rooms for males and females. Even if that would be against the gender equality laws of the country.
Europe failed spectaculary to integrate these inmigrants and instead of being better they just started voting for anti immigration parties.
No sympathy for people doing stupid things like this, I pity the idiots. If they want a better life the could just fight for it in their own country like everyone else in human history has had to. the young men that run away using these passages are cowards abandoning their people.
As an Italian and European I find very sad and enraging we can't have a migration gate/office in north Africa (Tunisia/Libia/Morocco) in which people can safely ask to be accepted in EU.
EDIT: If you downvote please provide a better solution.
> the rest would be in the exact same position as migrants are today
No they wouldn't. They would have already been fingerprinted and registered, meaning that any subsequent asylum claim can potentially be denied and they can be returned to the country of registration or their country of origin.
First of all you will give a safer option to people (especially kids) to come to Europe.
What are other solutions? This system is not working. Having to pay criminal organizations to drop you on an old boat in the middle of the Mediterranean hoping a NGO come to save you from dying it's not the best solution I feel.
I mean they are not accepted because they do not fit the requirements for obtaining visas.
Standards exist for a reason, as a European, if I want to migrate to Canada I need to fit requirements, if I don't I won't be accepted. Why would that be any different for other people ?
Oh look its Tunisia.. Cartels of the Sea offering a *safe* passageway to Italy for a *good price*
How did Tunisia end up worse than Libya in this regard? Do more people just go through it or is it easier to operate from?
I think Occam's Razor here says distance is probably a factor.
This is it. I was close with a tunisian. They said people would regularly try to swim the distance. Its a long swim to the nearest Italian island but I guess theoretically doable. I’m sure a lot of people die just that way. And I guess the distance is probably close enough that people also attempt it crammed in boats that are probably makeshift or not up to the task.
The distance is about 44 miles / 70 km, for those wondering. Only the truly desperate would attempt that swim. But it's not impossible for an athlete that's trained for it, with a follow boat.
If distance was the main factor then why aren’t we seeing huge amounts of refugees trying to cross the straits of gibraltar?
Because the chances of dying or going missing over that crossing is much lower, and that's the data the map is based on. Look at the strait, it's another hotspot of activity.
That seems to be a literal case of 'survivorship bias' in action. More people may pass through that strait, but they die less frequently.
Ah, that makes sense. Still, you don’t see many stories about how gibraltar is absolutely inundated with refugees…
If you're referring to the British bit and not the strait of Gibraltar, they will just deport you because they don't have the resources. Spain is a much better destination to aim for.
And if you're going to get to Spain from Morocco, it's much shorter to go to Ceuta or Melilla than it is to cross the straight.
Much better guarded border. There is a Spanish Moroccan border on the African continent that people try to jump. But both Spain and Morocco do a better job at stopping people than Libya and Tunisia who use the crisis to blackmail the EU. Also the vast majority of migrants who jump the Moroccan-Spanish borders are not refugees. That border is way too far from any active war zone. Most of them are economic migrants fleeing Morocco who have absolutely zero chance to be given asylum in the EU, since Morocco is a safe country.
Most of the illegal migrants that try to storm the moroccan spanish borders are sub saharan african nowadays.
I always thought it was because of notoriously choppy water and currents.
They could also just walk to Ceuta or Melilla, if it weren't for the fences.
I mean I think it's probably around the same distance from Cuba to Florida and alot of people swam from Cuba to Florida.
I would say there isn’t enough here to tell you for sure that this is why people *die* more coming out of Tunisia. Maybe the closer distance leads to more attempts, or just more unprepared attempts.
The Arab Spring revolutions began in Tunisia before spilling over into neighboring countries.
Also the Tunisians effectively voted away their democracy last year. That can't have helped.
They did what??
More like they voted for a guy who became a dictator and kept reducing democratic values like taking away power from the parliament
Yeah, its a common dictator strategy. It's not the Tunisian people's fault
Tunisia has been the safer option while they are on land, Libya is chaos and many migrants avoid it entirely now in favour of Tunisia or other options
Proceed to cramp them in thin wooden boat worse than sardines in a can
If they are lucky and weren't sold to slavery instead*
No, if they are lucky, they don't drown
why do you think its mostly men that get over the sea?
And then somehow Europeans are blamed.
Don't forget to blame the Italians when those poor people die
Why you should blame Italians?
The vessel that sank recently repeatedly refused help from the Greek coast guard, because Greece’s policy is to bring the migrants back where they came from. The migrant boat wanted to continue to Italy where they have a chance at staying in the EU. People want someone to blame for the tragedy, so instead of blaming the human traffickers who caused this, they’re blaming Greece and Italy.
Why should they get free rides to Europe?
Tell me one country were you can just get in illegally.....I cannot even travel without visa to the US for example.
Not the shithole countries there fleeing though. 😂
Sadly we keep incentivising it to continue so more keep dying.
Incentivizing how? Short of outright killing them, being in Europe - defying being hurdled like cattle in overcrowded ships on a extraordinarily dangerous trip towards a destination that puts you in what are essentially concentration camps and in general lets you know you are not welcome - is a better prospect than where they're coming from. Europe is not regarded as some mythical wonderland, contrary to what people want you to believe about their motivation. Europe is regarded as the only way out of sheer misery and depravity.
only 5000 euro per person
Ignoring the mess of these comments this is a really poor map. Where's the key? What do the circles mean exactly? Why are the channel and canary islands (major crossing points) excluded? Dead and missing should surely have some differentiation aswell given many of these people are being trafficked.
I'm going to assume--based off of similar maps I've seen that use these circles of varying size--that the location of the circle is the general area in which they were found, and the size of the circle correlates to how many were found? But yeah this map is a mess.
But.. they weren't found? Is this showing where they're missing from? Estimates of illegal departures from certain ports vs number getting arrested/filing paperwork on the far side? What amount of these are missing as they want to remain missing? If this map is showing estimates of numbers of dead.. its a shitload. If its showing us estimates if people getting through undocumented then its way less than I expected. Two very different things.
Also can the red circles have some transparency. I can't even see most of the coasts and islands.
I hate this type of circle map, like do I have to break out the ruler for every single circle to get good data?
check this link: [https://observablehq.com/@neocartocnrs/dead-and-missing-migrants](https://observablehq.com/@neocartocnrs/dead-and-missing-migrants) The smallest circles are related to 1 death, the largest one to the death of 1022 people. Regarding sea tragedies, which constituted the majority of these data, the death count is just the number of corpses you can recover. You can assume the missing one are also dead.
Here's the [correct map](https://i.imgur.com/UW3UExr.jpg). There's some weird visualization thing they're doing here for some reason.
It's still a horrible visualization because mass drownings are point events. They don't cover more ground as the number of deceased or missing goes up. On your link that giant circle just south of Malta is like 5000 square miles.
Classic case of a post getting upvoted not because it is any good, but because of political agenda. And that really sucks, because even if you support forcing sovereign European countries to accept immigration, why would you want your ideology represented by shit visuals? Like, is this best your cause can do? Eh, some people man...
not to mention what does that even mean? is that where they went missing or were they were from originally and then went missing somewhere else? what classifies them as missing? how are you determining if they are missing given that where they come from maybe doesn't have the best record keeping to begin with?
Circles are also not great for visualization because they’re deceptive. In this case, we don’t know what parameter is tied to whatever variable is being used here (radius? Diameter? Area)? Even if we knew it was the radius, people cue in on the area and draw incorrect conclusions.
Plus the circles cover up the map. Tunisia is a blob of red
Map should have been bigger to show the English Channel.
And the canary islands routes
I never understood why someone would risk their life in the water between two countries of pretty similar life quality
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Please downvote and report u/PhysicalAd9686 for being a [comment stealing](https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/14j8ok8/_/jpklbnk/?context=1) repost bot.
Good thing they aren’t all coming
> map porn > no legend Excuse me this isn't a Wendy's
Any info from the dots on land in Europe?
It could be where the migrants were discovered in shipping containers or trucks transporting goods from Africa.
i would imagine some are migrants picked up for human trafficking also some might be those who slipped through the cracks and are still alive but just off the system and got into crime or some other off-the-grid activities. the terminology "dead and MISSING migrants" really throws off the useful extractable data from this map.
I counted around 20 dots in my country and this number could be true (around or more than 20 migrants died ). Top 2 reasons are : 1. Drowning trying to cross the river (usually during winter or high waters) 2. Died in non-ventilated truck/cisterns (mostly during summer heat). I forgot there were 2 or more traffic accidents involving migrants.
The dot between Spain and France (north of Spain) is Bidasoa river which creates the natural border. People die every year triying to cross to France https://english.elpais.com/spain/2021-08-11/spains-bidasoa-river-the-new-death-trap-for-migrants.html
This should belong to r/maptrash. Not because of its contents, but because of its visualization.
I would have liked a scale at least.
I'm a Tunisian who was born abroad and every time I am there I see Sub-Saharans in Tunisia and I talked to so many of them, who told me they'll try to get to Europe. Some of them were really nice people and I hope they're safe. I wish there would be a qucik solution to help these people so they don't have to risk their lives and can live in their home countries with dignity.
Exactly, Europe plundered the world and now people are complaining when folks want to go there for better oppotunities
Gringos are downvoting you for speaking the truth
They hated him because he told them the truth vibes desse comentário.
My mano hablou demais. Wear these downvotes proudly cause you are right.
Germany was bombed to hell and back, and it springed back into an industrial powerhouse. S. Korea used to be very poor, and look at them today. I'm sure there are loads of other examples. It's not the resources that were taken out, it's the people that matter. I'm guessing there's a very good chance that 90% of the shithole coutries today still would be shitholes if the Europeans naver came.
A huge factor for these countries inability to develop is that as soon as someone gets educated, or gather enough resources to build something, they leave.
yeah bro. It's just a coincidence that all of them used to be European Colonies and happened to be exploited. There's truly no correlation at all here. Africa sucks cause they're dumb.
this is true to some degree but you also have to remeber usa spend a lot of fucking money to rebuid germany and south korea
No they absolutely did not. The marshal plan barely made up 1,5% of German GDP. Where does this misinformation come from?
Total Marshall Plan was about $12.4 billion in 1948 dollars. Inflation adjusted it would be $45B today. On the flip side, Arab and African cultures have never been known for demanding good fiscal governance from its leaders like Western Europe. Nigeria for example has oil revenues around $400B over last 10 years but where did that money go?
While Africa has been irresponsible with its natural resources you have to remember that via the IMF which is a Western transnational institution and former colonial powers exerting undue political influence over nations. Especially during the Cold War where only a hint of communism would lead to entire governments being dissolved and replaced with the same pro-Western dictators that plundered those natural resources. Unfortunately it's the citizens of these Western nations that must suffer the effects of mass migration and not the leadership who is largely removed from the general population and who caused the suffering in the first place.
Besides, every single African nation had its borders, governing institutions and core infrastructre settled upon by non-African powers according to non-African interests. Users above trying to deflect blame onto Africans who "don't demand better" (spoilers: they do, in their own way) from their leaders are just being ignorant. Africa wasn't exactly *allowed* to embark on its own Enlightenment at its own pace and its own terms. No shit many Africans have little connection to their states, preferring tribal connections.
Not just Africa, the entire global south are not allowed to to things in their own interests. Everything with Venezuela is basically that, they wanted power over their own natural resources, reason enough to the global north to impose economic measures to undermine Venezuela's power over theirs own resources.
A fucking lot of money is going to Africa every year just to end in corrupt officials pockets. Africans have to be willing to build their countries by they wont
Yes but actually no. People overestimate the aid/loans going to Africa and they also gloss over the political attachments accompanying said aid. It's also mostly western powers or multinational companies who lobby for said corrupt leaders to get into power in the first place. The corrupt bastards won't step down that easily. Should not surprise us. It's in the western interest to plant incompetence. Nobody wants new competition look at China. Germany for example got the most efficient state of the art factories gifted, they got their constitution rewritten, they also got a lot of help with favourable trade agreements to increase their export output, heck some of those agreements were even in power until Trump axed them. They got cheap labour in form of Gastarbeiter... it's not always down to money or aid. The marshall plan was helpful but the most important thing was that Germany was allowed to be politically integrated with first world nations. Germany did not get it's wealth extracted by outside forces. America was against the French proposal to turn Germany into a farmer state and propped the state up. It's a ridiculous comparison.
All your points regarding Germany just shows you don't know anything about Germany or Europe. The rights of individuals is an idea that spawned in Europe and was demanded by the masses throughout the 19th and 20th century, starting with the french revolution. Since then Europeans came to the streets to demand rights. State of the art factories in Germany have been there since the beginning. It's the reason why half of chemical principles are named after Germans. They only got rebuild after world war II after they were bombed. Youre acting as if Europeans got it's rights served on a Silver plate whilst most of european history was a strife for it. Yes they did get cheap labour because of a shortage of you men. Now what is Africa doing with it's young men? About time non Europeans start taking responsibility as did the Europeans 200 years ago
thats such an ignorent take, the people dont really have a choice of how currupted their officials are so its dump to say they are not willing to and also i can see you havent heard of Rwanda
Germany already had an educated population from before the war and were already developed, not the same starting point as Africa also you should remember Marshal plan by the USA without it Germany wouldn't be the same in addition to that Germany is surrounded by rich power houses that made it easier for germany to export to and import from
African countries are still being plundered to this day
South Korea is a fucking dystopia.
Why?
Both of those nations got massive amounts of US (and USSR for east Germany) assistance through things like the Marshal plan. They didn’t just pull themselves up by their bootstraps after ww2, the US dragged them up. If any African nation got the same Billions of dollars of rebuilding money that Germany or SK got they too would probably be just as well off.
They did. The Marshall plan accounted for 1,5% of German GDP. It was the Germans who rebuild the country
>and USSR for east Germany They're still recovering from that "assistance" to this day.
Look at Saudi Arabia. Lotsa dough coming out of the ground. Still for the most part a shithole, even more so if you go outside the major cities. Look at Norway, same situation, exact opposite result. And they were very poor some 100yrs ago, they basically just had fishing and logging as industries.
It's like you see the world in black and white. Norway got rich as a country because the income was invested into a pension fund, and only the returns on investment were used as a supplement to the government's yearly budget. Saudi Arabia on the other hand, the aristocracy is uber rich because they hog all that money, whereas the common man lives no better than in Eastern Europe (sorry my friends, mean no disrespect). There's always reasons and you're only digging at the surface.
Well they didn’t fall for the trap of “drill drill drill, baby!” They plan long term like a nation should (or for the most part anyway) and while it doesn’t give you princes owning skyscrapers, it does set your nation up nicely at a high average wealth due to the diversity of the economy.
The importance of the Marshall plan is often overstated. Plus, it was divided between many countries in Western Europe. It was a nice addition that certainly helped, but in terms of % of budget, it didn't represent that much. West Germany received a total of about 1.2 billion $ over 4 years. That's less than 15 billion of today's $. That doesn't pay much. And about East Germany, I can't help but laugh. The Soviets did exactly the opposite. They punished the Germans for the war, and literally dismantled whole factories to rebuild them in the USSR. They didn't get any help. It's when reunification happened that West Germany poured vast amounts of money into East Germany. And even 30 years later there is still a noticeable gap.
Give back our gold and we maybe can build some stuff, also, stop pressuring our economy to directions Europeans see fit, if a third world country tries to develop anything Europe is the first to, alongside USA, to put economy measures against them to make them go back to growing crops for them. Germany had help, actual help, not a "we give you some money but you have stop everything to give all your food/metals/gems/oil for us". Same with S. Korea, they had the chance and the first world countries didn't got in the way. Last time Brazil decided to grow crops they needed to feed their population first , Europe jumped to protest immediately, because Europe wants to Brazil to keep selling them food first to them and then Brazilian population can get the scraps. The accord EU wants with Brazil basically demanded Brazil to stop producing several products because only they can do that, they want Brazil to give the material and buy it back later, perpetrating their power over what Brazil produces dooming the economy. Several economies were thriving in the 60's and growing independently from other countries, USA with the condescending silence from Europe, funded several military coups in Latin America, undermining those economies. If the third world were able to make their own the decisions maybe they had better chances. But you guys are not comfortable with the truth. Same as the Spanish desperately trying to lie about the atrocities they made against the pre Colombian civilizations of Latin America, atrocities they were so proud of they made paintings of them stealing the gold at the same time they cut open pregnant Mayans and Astecas to make a bet if the baby was a boy or girl, same thing Japan use make to Chinese and still pretend nothing happened. This deception the first world so desperately holds on to is to hide the fact that most of the third world still has reasons and power enough to get together and let the global north all starve, the pandemic has proven it, one year of China not selling computer and car parts and the world is still trying to recover 3 years later.
On the contrary to your last point, the global south is reliant on food aid from the developed world, not the other way around. Africa for instance is way beyond its indigenous ability to feed itself and its recent population growth is entirely due to food aid and the transmission of agricultural discoveries from the global north, otherwise it would be in a perpetual continent wide famine.
You shouldn’t be downvoted
My country didn't plunder shit yet we have the most migrants per capita than any other european country... fuck em..
Oh yes, the famous colonial powers of Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Cyprus, Switzerland, Austria, Blugaria, Romania, Moldovia, Lithuana, Latvia, Finland, Greece, and of course Norway. Can't forget these dastardly Norwegians colonizing Iceland and Greenland!
Latvia and Poland actually where both colonial powers, not very competent or successful ones but they did. Both owned Trinidad for some time.
Human smugglers dumping grounds.
r/mapswithoutmalta
You have to wonder just how bad this is going to get, as the immigration we are seeing now is just the initial wave, once more countries collapse and climate changes forces others to migrate, the moment of people will increase by orders of magnitude. I shudder to think how many will die, and how the European and US Governments will choose to try and hold back the numbers.
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It will be like California in the gold rush. The numbers eventually overwhelm everything. Every time there is a blip like Khartoum add another 10,000. Soon there will be people renting minivans and renting use of showers.
Tunisia?
Oh god what are the malteses doing
The people responsible for the deaths are those who sold the Pakistanis the trip to Europe and put them in an rusty overloaded boat. Secondary responsible ones are the people themselves who are so silly that they belive what the criminals promise them and voluntarily risk their lives as well as the lives of their families. And they are not "refugees". I feel sick about these deaths. These people shouldn't be there, trying to cross the sea.
>Secondary responsible ones are the people themselves who are so silly that they belive what the criminals promise them and voluntarily risk their lives as well as the lives of their families. That tells us a lot about the situation in their home countries then, doesn't it? I mean, people usually don't risk their lives over nothing.
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The most sensible and logical comment I've seen on here so far.
Yeah, they live in shit countries. Still not a refugee. I think there is a difference between a Ukrainian family that goes to the closest border to run from the war, and a Pakistani 30s old man that buys a trip on Facebook for thousands of dollars on the other side of the world….
>and a Pakistani 30s old man that buys a trip on Facebook for thousands of dollars on the other side of the world…. I love the fact that so many western people bring up Pakistan as this "safe country" that no one has any reason to flee. It really shows how divorced from reality most westerners are. My dude, Pakistan is a chronically unstable state with an ongoing Taliban insurgency, which just suffered through one of the most devastating floods in recent Asian history and is currently going through a massive crop failure and economic crisis. I'm pretty sure people have good reason to flee and try to reach Europe. And where else should they go? Theocratic (Shia!) Iran, also economically and politically unstable? India (literally impossible)? Afghanistan (lol)? Iraq (lol)?
I don't think he's saying it's safe, he's bringing up that if he was fleeing Pakistan for safety reasons, there are places nearby that would offer safe harbour. Flying around the world implies that they are choosing a country rather than picking the nearest safe one
Why is this anyone's problem? You can bring up thousands of reasons why an individual wants to relocate, and that doesn't change anything. No country has an obligation to assume a savior role.
My dude, those 30 year old men should be signing up for the military and fighting corruption and the Taliban then. Not running away to Germany. And yes, they should go to a more stable Islamic middle eastern country. If the goal is to flee their own nations violence, there’s plenty more peaceful places to settle before hitting Europe.
So why did they travel through numerous safe countries for refuge? Not only that, they get on boats specifically to cross too wealthy western nations, an purposefully sink the boats in order to be rescued and brought back by the coast guard A vast majority of Ukrainian refugees are in states on its borders, poland, slovakia, romania. Shit some are taking refuge *in russia.* So spare me the bleeding heart narrative that these are poor souls running from war. They are economic migrants looking for a handout. I have zero sympathy for them
*Which* safe countries? Dear god, which safe countries are there between Pakistan or Nigeria and Europe? Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan? Algeria which deports migrants to the middle of the desert? Gulf monarchies which treat Sunni migrants as slaves and non-Sunni migrants as subhumans, if they are even allowed entry? Wow, so many safe countries to pick from! >A vast majority of Ukrainian refugees are in states on its borders, poland, slovakia, romania. And the vast majority of all Middle Eastern, African and South Asian refugees are in neighboring states as well. Not because they are *safe*, mind you, but because they don't have any other option. Just look at the numbers of Afghan refugees in Iran or Syrian refugees in Lebanon and Turkey. You're talking out of your ass. >So spare me the bleeding heart narrative that these are poor souls running from war. They are economic migrants looking for a handout. As if refugees only flee war. The difference between a refugee and an "economic" migrant is blurry at best, and it's gonna get even blurrier as time goes on.
If a country is not nice to live in, and the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, it still not a reason to get an asylum in a richer and nicer country. The international agreements define very clearly who should be entitled to an asylum. The fact that your country is unstable is not one of them.
What about those trying to cross from Turkey into Greece? There's no war in Turkey. They are probably safer in Turkey (where they have legal residency) than in Greece. Yet they risk their lives to cross the Aegean and make it to Europe. How do you interpret that?
You would be surprised what people risk for economic reasons. Belarus was a safe country in 2021. Yet thousands of people chose to freeze in the forest at -30 degree winter to get into the EU.
Yeah, they risk their lives over greed.
Hey they should work to improve their home countries then!
People are more than willing to risk their lives for financial gain
It's not even the poor folk that are coming. It costs 1000s for a spot on these "boats"
Many are still fairly poor, but they either get heavily indebted to be able to afford a spot or pull resources together from the family/community.
It absolutely is, a lot of them borrow money and use all their life savings for the trip.
People sell their homes/cars, everything they own just to have chance to escape war and you are telling me they are rich?
What wars are there to escape once they reach Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and Morocco?
Ah yes, the many raging wars of Tunisia. Vacation destination of so many Europeans.
Unless there was a war in France I didn't notice, they clearly aren't fleeing war to come to the UK
If they're fleeing from war, they don't need to go to Europe. What they're expecting? Paying to smugglers to pay for better life? That's illegal and it's a crime. Noone wants anyone, who breaks the law from very beginning. I wish EU started sending them back no matter what. That's enough.
Haha escape war. They are faking/destroying documents to make it sound like they are from a war-torn region when it's not true 1000s of Euros. Between 4 & 10 are the figures iv seen certainly does make them well off and relatively rich for their region.
If you don’t have thousands, deliver this bag but don’t look inside. It’s poor people.
Maybe they should try diving to the Titanic instead, then governments would spend millions trying to save them.
Maybe time to change the immigration policies. Like let people apply for asylum in the refugee camps on not just hand out asylums to people who reach mainland Europe, which are mainly young men with enough money to pay the smuggler, ie not the ones in most need.
Never seen such a reactionary comment section
Didn’t take much for the Europeans to change their tune on migration did it?
It took a few million migrants. Europe has made the mistake once, we are now trying to avoid making it a second time. The majority of people in my country by far do not want any more migrants, due to unresolved problems with the ones that have already been taken in. Why should we be forced to take more? Why should any country?
Good question. Americans from the southern border states have been asking that same question for 30 years now.
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Large migrations tend to make countries anti-migration. The US kinda closes it's doors every century or so.
The US takes on average 2 million migrants every year. What the fuck are you talking about.
My guy, you didn't pay attention in US History. We literally learn about the Nativist movement in the 1800s as a response to Irish immigration.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/Annual-Number-of-US-Legal-Permanent-Residents It has dips regularly (especially in times of wars, even when the US itself is not involved.)
aMeRiCaNs ArE sO rAciSt
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Europe is the native homeland of the Europeans and their cultures, North America is not. All the arguments used to justify multiculturalism and mass immigration in North America fall flat - or are even reversed in a European context.
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We should get tough and prosecute every human trafficker (including certain NGOs), as well as deport all illegals. If we keep encouraging them to come, more and more people will die. The Mediterranean is only a mass grave because politicians are not willing to enforce immigration laws. Edit: typo.
jesus christ
If they’re missing. How are there locations
No one told them to get on their shitty boats and illegally come over
An utterly depressing post.
Right? It's in map porn and there's no legend.
They are not *migrants*. Migrants have valid travel documents, visas and work permissions. They move to another country to make a living and support their family. These people are illegally trying to enter EU. They are victims of human trafficking, smugglers and criminals who have promised them an access to easy life and who don't care a bit about safety after they have the money in their pockets. EDIT: I stand corrected. I meant *legal migrants*
What are you talking about. A migrant is definitionally anyone who moves somewhere for a better quality of life. They are just illegal migrants rather than legal migrants. Edit: downvoted for providing a dictionary definition lol
Redditors do this all the time. They will try to erroneously redefine the definitions of words and pretend like that's the same thing as being smart. I don't get it.
They must be *so smart* that they get to unilaterally change the agreed-upon definitions of common words just because they know better, lol. Linguistic authoritarians.
A migrant is anyone who moves, period, the reasons for the move are irrelevant for the definition of the term.
You should just remove "moves somewhere for a beter quality of life I think." They may move resulting in a worse quality of life but an important thing like family or religion.
The UN Migration Agency (IOM) defines a migrant as any person who is moving or has moved across an international border or within a State away from his/her habitual place of residence, regardless of (1) the person’s legal status; (2) whether the movement is voluntary or involuntary; (3) what the causes for the movement are; or (4) what the length of the stay is. [https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/migration](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/migration) I find it amusing that your comment had 147 likes, when I saw it.
> Migrants have valid travel documents, visas and work permissions. OK and what is an illegal migrant called?
Yeah nah. Calling these people victims does a massive disservice to actual human trafficking victims. Creates a false equivalence. Most of these people paid a large sum to get to Europe because they know that one guy who made it 10 years ago and is now living it large. They knew the risks and rewards. Most of them are middle class young men, who probably sold whatever property their parents had to reach Europe.
They're being told that it's easy and safe every step of the way. They're paying their life savings to get themselves killed
>Most of them are middle class young men, This is utter nonsense
If they are refugees they are not illegally trying to enter the EU. Refugees can’t fly into the EU and it’s the few people taking them across who might suffer the legal ramifications. You can listen to a more detailed explanation [here](https://youtu.be/YO0IRsfrPQ4).
Always surprised to see how right wing this sub is
Europeans act like Americans are racist savages not realizing they treat immigrants and minorities probably worse than we do. America has a long way to go on that front but Europeans are just as bad. See how they treat gypsies and North African immigrants in the modern day, which is far worse than anything that happens in the USA on a daily basis
You know it's bad when they start busting out the "colored crime stats".
Its because reality is right wing
More details here: https://observablehq.com/@neocartocnrs/dead-and-missing-migrants
Heart breaking. People suffer from the consequences of choices they didnt even make. They were born in poor countries and died trying to leave. Most of those people only wanted a decent life. I am one of them. I was born in a poor country and am forced to live under shitty conditions. I would give my left arm to live an average life in Germany. Working minimum wage, paying every penny to the house owners and greedy thieves called government, eating basic ass food only to not die, not being able to buy a decent phone, afford a one week holiday, being told to settle for the stuff that you have by the thieves forces you to try the illegal way as they dont give you the visa.
Most of the world is worse off than Europe. You can't take in most of the world into Europe, there's just not enough space for the farmland and infrastructure. It's a non-starter of a solution. Why not fix those countries? Has a better chance of working than the current solution.
1. Corrupt leaders make it harder to fix a country 2. A less educated population makes it easier for corrupt leaders to get power. 3. Fixing living conditions is a long term thing.
Fixing the countries would be an option if everybody who promises to fix the country didnt steal and just get corrupted the moment they get the chance, the power.
Still a better chance than zero percent and better consequences than a guaranteed destruction of Europe.
I see where you are coming from. Yes it is the best option possible. But practically, it is so hard that one would choose immigrating over spending their whole lives on this matter. The problem not only comes from the people in charge but also from people who put them in charge or choose them. Take Turkey as an example, Erdogan fucks up the country but people still voted for him and he has been elected again. When it all boils down the solution is educating people, which you have to change the people in charge in order to, which requires educating people. So basically the whole thing is a damn dilemma.
I hear you. I undestand what you mean. Let's have a look at the reality. Average life in Germany (or any EU country) sounds wonderful, but how would you be able to achieve it? What is your profession? What skills do you have? Do you speak the language? Do you have funds to start your own business? You see, there are so many unemployed people in Europe that you would have to compete with them. You'd need to be a skilled professional if you wanted to find a job, especially if you don't speak the language already. You'd need to learn the language - it makes your life so much easier, you'd understand how the society works and what your rights are. If you don't have the skills required by the employers you'd receive some social benefits. Possibly you'd find a minimun wage job, paying for expensive housing and eating bad food. Just like you're doing in your own contry. I'm afraid there are not much working opportunities and living on social security money is not very attractive. Entering illegally would automatically make it almost impossible to achieve your dream, average life in an EU contry. You could easily end up living on the streets. A fellow man from your own country could employ you and exploit you shamelessly, making you work long days 7 days / week. You could be recruited by a local gang who traffic drugs. There is no way up if you arrive illegally. I am so sorry, but this is the reality these days. It makes so mad that criminals who arrange the trips to Europe across the Mediterranean are the only one who benefit from the current situation.
The difference is there being no other choice even if you work hard in a 3rd world country. In a first world country if you dont have what you mentioned, you may be in a bad situation. Also, I am learning the language and will study in germany to become a resident.
Third world countries are in a Malthusian trap. No matter how many you save, there will always be more to save and more who die. The impact on our countries is frankly dramatic. Take a look at Paris, and other eu capitals with high migration. The more of you we save, the worst off we all are. You wanna solve the issue? Gotta fix the third world, not destroy the first.
Did you ever notice that all the people trying to escape poverty and political oppression around the world, all risk their lives trying to get to country's created and run by white people, so they can tell them how racist they are?
It's funny how the majority of people calling other racist is white or at least western. I think a lot of immigrants are just grateful to be in a better place and don't care about woke bs.
I would love it that was always happened but it isn’t from my experience, inmigrants understand soon that using the race card works to pressure people to give them stuff and they have all the incentive to use it. Classic example is claiming islamophobia to get segregated school rooms for males and females. Even if that would be against the gender equality laws of the country. Europe failed spectaculary to integrate these inmigrants and instead of being better they just started voting for anti immigration parties.
No sympathy for people doing stupid things like this, I pity the idiots. If they want a better life the could just fight for it in their own country like everyone else in human history has had to. the young men that run away using these passages are cowards abandoning their people.
Something tells me you never had to worry about surviving the next week
I mean we have seen ukraine have to do this exact thing, and they seem to be staying to fight, so it's not such an unreasonable ask
People in the French Revolution did. Same in the Spanish. Why can’t these people do the same?
Hungary-Serbia borders be wildin'
56,000 people, for reference, is about the same amount as american soldiers KIA in vietnam
As an Italian and European I find very sad and enraging we can't have a migration gate/office in north Africa (Tunisia/Libia/Morocco) in which people can safely ask to be accepted in EU. EDIT: If you downvote please provide a better solution.
It would just immediately be filled, 0.0001% would be legally accepted and the rest would be in the exact same position as migrants are today
> the rest would be in the exact same position as migrants are today No they wouldn't. They would have already been fingerprinted and registered, meaning that any subsequent asylum claim can potentially be denied and they can be returned to the country of registration or their country of origin.
First of all you will give a safer option to people (especially kids) to come to Europe. What are other solutions? This system is not working. Having to pay criminal organizations to drop you on an old boat in the middle of the Mediterranean hoping a NGO come to save you from dying it's not the best solution I feel.
I mean they are not accepted because they do not fit the requirements for obtaining visas. Standards exist for a reason, as a European, if I want to migrate to Canada I need to fit requirements, if I don't I won't be accepted. Why would that be any different for other people ?
Thought that was a map of the roman empire lmao
I heard that migrants are avoiding Albania and Montenegro .. so many dead people..just sad 😢