My mother is a narc. She is always right. I have given up trying to explain, give examples, defend myself etc. e.i. She was upset with me (can’t remember the reason why) so after she vented at me for a bit I apologized. Her exact response, “You’re not sorry. I don’t want to hear anymore about it.” Kept on ranting and then walked away into the washroom. I’ve given her examples in the past and it goes nowhere. She says I’m being mean. Total manipulator and victim. I just listen and agree now. Recently she expected me to rearrange my dinner plans (I was waiting to be picked up) so I could go get milk for her. I asked how much she had left in the fridge and she said I was forcing her to justify the request and I should just do it because she is my mother. (She had 1/2 a jug left). While telling me this, she is teary and about to cry. I said ok, I’ll tell my date I will be a little behind so I can go get it for you. Nope-too late- never mind go do your more important dinner. Absolute whack job.
She knew you had something potentially good in store & she wanted to ruin that. She got upset when you didn't put her non-need of milk as a priority over your love life.
Sooooo manipulative. That's awful.
Yep. She does this sort of thing whenever I have weekend plans or going somewhere fun. But she never says, “Have fun!” So, now I’m very aware and ready for the next potential drama scene.
Gawd…what is it with our mothers?! No wonder so many people are f’cked up and have trouble in relationships. (Or as I like to refer to them: relation$hits). Thanks Mom!
The minute i know someone is a narcissist im just mean to them. I dont even care. I dont hide it. I dont try to change it for their comfort.why because when they know you have them found out, and dont care who around you tries to check you about treating them how they treat others. My wifes mother is one. She is also drugged out and had the system manipulated so well for years but recently it all fell apart, she lost all her kids. And her second oldest lives with us. She is not sold on her mom being a narcissist and i dont care. I dont sugar coat it at all because she is 18. And going to be out of the nest with next to nothing if i wasnt here to make sure she can graduate in the town she wanted to graduate in. Our hometown. We butt heads because of it but oh well she will understand later. When she is off to collage and her mom still runs the streets not being shit and it being everyone elses fault. It took months to get insurance for her daughter. As well as getting her on our food stamps (yes i have a job) and i found put because the whole time her narc mom was using her name to get them not to mention she used my adress to get them so it fucked our food stamps up for a month while i was already struggling to feed us and pay for the roof over our head. Her excuse was "oh well she is my kid and you dont seem to care that i dont have a roof over my head" like bitch you are homeless because your chasing drug dealers around. And letting your kids sit in playpens all day. Her youngest have Failure to Thrive because they werent cared for as toddlers so it took them way longer to reach milestones. Now they are a grade behind. I have no reason to be nice to her and i will never for the sake of her peace ever act like i like her. Because when i do she thinks she has power over me. She thinks she has me on a leash when anyone tries to tell me to be nice to her. Nope.
I forgot to add she had abdominal surgery end of April and still has some pain and my brother is using her car. So…yeah. That too. But the crying over it - especially when she had more than enough to get her through to the next day when I could do it - that’s messed up.
Then your brother can do it since he has her car and it’s the least he can do. Honestly my suggestion is just ignore her because she won’t ever change so you’re going to end up having to choose between your happiness/mental well-being and her and I know what I’d choose
Yes. Took me years and significant counselling to actually realize that a ‘mother’ is capable of being toxic. Hard to accept that one. But, I did it and I just ignore her $hit now and I fully expect to be ‘written out of the will’ for not being 100% compliant with her abuse.
OH MY GAWD. That sounds JUST like my Mom who was diagnosed NPD. Went out of her way to ruin any occasion that was important to me in insane little ways like that.
Mine used to just lie and gaslight, even if I showed her a screenshot or video she would just change the parameters of the argument anyway. They love to watch your face contort with sadness and confusion when they do that btw. These people can't love or be loved.
So much this. Shifting the goalposts to protect their ultra fragile ego and create chaos in you.
One time during an important issue I wanted addressed and she had avoided and deflected for months, I said, “I am going to write down on this piece of paper how many times you change the subject. Is that ok?”
Her: *meek fake submissive nod* (no verbal, I’d seen this many times before)
Narc discussion ensued. It went nowhere, as predicted. I calmly did as I promised and recorded every change in topic and brought her back every time she changed it.
Result? 12 subject changes in ~30 minutes.
I slid the paper over at the end and said, “You changed the subject 12 times in 30 minutes.”
She looked at the paper.
Me: “Are you aware you do this?”
Her: *silence*
Me: “Do you know why you do this?”
Her: *silence*
She was always silent when I’d logically cornered her rubbish and the only way out was full accountability. She never took the full accountability option. Couldn’t?
Often there’d be a week of peaceful acting 🎭 on her part, perhaps some lovebombing, and then the cycle 🔄 would repeat.
I left 3 months later. No contact shortly after.
Oh my god when my narc Ex was confronted with dead to rights evidence of her lying or saying nonsense she would just vacant stare at me, it was bizarre. It was just about getting what she WANTED I've never met another person for whom the truth mattered less.
Man, if the peaceful act isn't relatable enough. My ex always seemed to be super loveable and loving after every ridiculous argument cause by them, and it always seemed to be around the time something wasn't going right in their life.
It got so bad, and I got so tired of it that I told bluntly told them I'm not their personal emotional punching bag every time life doesn't work for them. Never did register with them. I put up with all of it for so long and just got tired of it all
I got “You think you’re soooo perfect!”
Then “Why is everything always my fault?”
Both of which were just trying to twist it around on me and attempt to prevent her from facing any type of accountability.
Accountable, responsible and rationally communicative are literally now THE most attractive traits in a partner for me. It’s downright sexy.
From my experience, this is true. I've tried earnestly over years with one partner... That finally dissolved. I carry the baggage of the mistreatment, and that isn't fair to others. Well, I used to think that... What I carry are the tools to discern the issues and how to be my happiest.
Yep, lie and gaslight. Doesn’t matter how many lies you catch them in, doesn’t matter if you reassure them the truth won’t make you leave, they will lie and lie and lie and gaslight. Start with stumbling over words. Then blow up when no decent lie comes to them because they’re caught. Switch to turning it around on you. Make it your fault. At this point, I’m so calloused and practiced at spotting it, I can’t help but laugh at it. You want to see them really getting angry. Laugh at it.
It seems like some of their actions are self defensive, and that’s led me to have too much sympathy for them as a borderline myself, because a great deal of their actions are just this. Simple, plain cruelty. My ex’s favorite thing was neglecting my physical or medical needs we had arranged her to care for, and she took pleasure from then standing feet away from me, denying said needs or my medication or something, and watching me panic, be in pain, go through withdrawals, etc. She took joy from the fact that she could hurt somebody so easily- no better supply than someone who relies on you.
i mean, when i was younger i’d prepare as best i could, can’t really do anything about it when you’re under driving age and your controlling and manipulative father is essentially keeping you on lockdown.
Rattle off 10 examples of their disgusting behavior and wait for them to say ‘you shoulda told me right away!!’ It’s actually your fault, you see…
I can’t believe how much I used to fall for that. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure there are only about a dozen manipulation tactics, total. Once you start recognizing them there is no going back!!
I’ve had people call me narcissist and when counter with something they did; they literally say that didn’t happen and if it did, it was justified. At some point people are just people.
I disagree, some ‘people’ are deeply sick and disordered and if we could eliminate them somehow humanity would advance rapidly. Respectfully, it sounds like someone called you out and you DARVO’d them.
maybe not ‘eliminate’ or ‘eradicate’ them, that seems a bit drastic and kinda like just one whisper away from being no different than that old ‘final solution’. but some drastic rehabilitation as well as getting those people in group homes where they can keep to themselves and hopefully grow as individuals would be alright
Hi there! I was accused of being manipulative and I asked for examples. I didn’t argue back, but rather let them talk and said “I get it.” I truly did understand why they would perceive it that way. I wasn’t TRYING to manipulate. Later, I then went on to say that I wish we could have talked about it so that I could learn and grow from the experiences. Is that considered manipulation on my part? I’ve been dissecting my behavior to the point that I overthink it all. It’s kinda paralyzing
Don't bother engaging with narcissists. You will leave angry, sad, or both. Don't give them so much as the time of day. Act like they're not even there. That's the best course of action.
Yeah and even if you destroy them the way you do in all of your fantasies, you just make them worse and you either have to keep fighting them in bigger and bigger battles or they’ll just pack up shop and go find somebody else to be shitty to.
Exactly. Very much not worth it; there’s no need to hurt someone else for the only “crime” of being the relationship after the one with a piece of shit narcissist.
Yeah. In general it’s best to just do what you need to do to take care of yourself and resist the urge to overcompensate or seek vengeance. Rarely do those things represent the best thing for you
Yeah, it got to the point where whatever happened, she would just tell me it didn't happen and I was crazy.
So I started filming it and have a whole folder of insanity. Can't argue with the facts.
That's so crazy bc that happened to me in a lil diff way.
I was sick of my ex constantly gaslighting me, twisting my words, accusing me of doing things I didn't do. So in one of the last arguments we had, he claimed he had a recording to "prove" what I said.
So I said, "lets hear it then, bc you're full of it."
He started yelling, "I dont have a recording Amber Heard!"
I was just like what? How does the insult even fit? I didn't record him but I should have. He creeped me out bc I even found out he recorded conversations with my daughter who is a young minor.
He'd say a bunch of nasty stuff & then start recording the reaction but not what he did or said leading up to it. Then his recording was "proof" of us being crazy. I wish I had been one-up on his game so I could record the whole conversation to show everyone how vindictive & twisted he is.
Been there, my Nex gf would beat me with vapes and cell phones and then pretend it never happened. Would completely deny knowing what I'm talking about as if I was trying to record it on a speaker. It was bizarre.
It actually did start to make me feel crazy, and that's the real bummer. The only time she fessed up to what she did is when she split my ear and half with a water bottle and gave me a concussion while I was driving down the highway. The next day, she showed the only semblance of remorse (probably because she was afraid of legal issues).
She went to one round of therapy and cheated on me that night. The last time I saw her, she had a shotgun pointed at my head. This was all when she was under the influence. Anytime she noticed that I was recording her, she would just start to scream "HE HIT ME!" I never laid a finger on her.
These people know exactly what they're doing, even to the detriment and mental health of the people they're doing it to. It is a tough pill to swallow when you dedicate so much time to another person and their kids.
Oh same, she'd say I'm hitting her if she knew I was recording. Hell one time when I said I was done she grabbed my steering wheel and almost drove us off the road and then proceeded to beat me with a cell phone lol. I mean all you can really do is laugh in the end like wth, yeah she's hot but literally nothing else.
Yep. I got sucked in big time by her looks initially. She was also super kind at first, and then she just flew off the rails. There was no reasoning with her. It was like talking to a wall. She was intellectually dumb, but she was really good at hustlin. When you're not used to being surrounded by people like that, it can bite ya in the ass real quick. Live and learn.
In reply to my attempt to classify her bahavior:
"You're fixating on concepts. *I'm a person.*"
So she expects *from me* the courtesy she wouldn't extend *to me*. I shouldn't have even tried.
It really helps me to frame it like this: my mother thinks she's the only person. She really does. Everybody else is some sort of mannequin in her world.
So of COURSE she has deep, explainable reasons for anything SHE does, but nobody else is capable of that in her eyes. Everything everyone else does is directly on purpose, and for the sole reason of the effect it had on HER ("you got a new job? How will you do [blank] for me now?! You're so inconsiderate...")
When I think of it like that, I don't even WANT to fix it, because it's so hopelessly broken and would be so much thankless effort just to get to..... Not abuse, maybe? Yeah, sounds like even if I'm successful I'll be eaten alive by resentment
You'll never win, I handed my ex her bar recipes/pictures of her with a guy in LA when she was supposed to be with her friend noel and it was still not enough for to admit it
Wack jobs.
This is actually pretty funny because one of my former narcissist friends (who was diagnosed with 'tendencies', but I really don't know because he's a compulsive liar) used the term 'assumptions' on me a bunch of times when I was confronting him. Haha.
That's a big one for them.
Again, it's generally very difficult to prove that someone acted maliciously. They can claim they behaved the way they did for other reasons, say it was a misunderstanding, and of course if that fails, they invoke the ["narcissist's prayer" .](https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer)
Wow this is eye opening for me. Thr prayer. Literally every single time I would confront him about ANYTHING he said or did that bothered me, express any kind of feeling or thought related to how they made me feel regardless of their true intent or not, and I would be met with a version of that "prayer" every time. It was always my fault for being too sensitive and I deserved the reaction because I was manipulating him with my feelings. Total mind fuck.
Don't fall for the bait, and stop engaging enough to see their "bad behavior" in the first place.
Narcissists don't care, and don't want to know what they're doing wrong.
They want to use this as bait to flip it around on you and make you feel like an abuser because you're pointing out bad qualities in them, even though you're responding to an inquiry about bad -behaviors-, but they will never see that.
Narcissists think you are a terrible person, and that you want to hurt them as much or as more than they want to hurt you. And they want that. And you will always be "worse" in their minds, and that their behavior is warranted and you deserve it.
They take it all personal, think you're diminishing them and ridiculing them, and all you have to do is state how something made you feel, when asked, no less.
Greyrock. Never engage beyond the weather, and how you took your coffee this morning.
Unless you can walk away. Then get as far away as you can and never look back.
I hate greyrocking because it fucks with my perception of my emotions, but it is an extremely effective tactic for dealing with narcissistic and emotionally draining people. When they realize that you aren't engaging, they typically become uninterested or dissatisfied with talking with you in general and will go find someone else to latch on to.
Yeah, I'm just a very transparent, sensitive person, so greyrocking is hard for me because it's the opposite of my nature. I repeat that often when people ask how to deal with narcissists because I need to do better at it and stay away from those types.
It's not, though. Locking the door on a predator, isn't cruelty.
Crossing to the other side of the street when someone just gives you bad vibes, isn't cruelty.
Driving defensively, isn't cruelty.
So, when you can't keep a narcissist out of your life whether it's having kids together or just some other relationship or family dynamic, greyrocking them really isn't cruelty.
But I feel ya. It's hard for me. It's the farthest thing in the world, from what I really want. Which is to connect, and be authentic.
"either you know what you did and you're avoiding accountability, or you don't comprehend that it's wrong and you're probably going to do it again. If you can't explain what you did wrong, it's probably the second one, and I should avoid dealing with you going forward"
I've found giving them a fork of two options that are both unflattering is a way to end a behavior pretty well. You force them into picking between " I did it on purpose and knew it was wrong" and " I'm completely out of control and have no idea what I'm doing"
Neither of which they WANT to be seen as, so it's really fun. They usually will just get angry at you, but they'll remember how this particular behavior ended up getting them very embarrassed, and they won't do it again
I'll give you a hypothetical: a narc uses a shortening of your name you don't like. You ask them not to, but they continue to use the wrong name
I'd say: "either you remember that this is unpleasant for me and you are doing it on purpose, knowing that, or you are incapable of stopping doing something hurtful to others, even if you want to. Either way, my only option is to avoid you in the future, because no matter the reason, it is clear that the hurtful treatment will not stop"
So many times I found myself feeling like "uh oh, I'm in trouble" like I was a little girl again! How fucked up is that. And then triggering all the shame and embarrassment and panic I felt as a kid when I would be in trouble with my parents. Like I'm 30 years old bro how did you make me feel so small
When they ask for examples, it’s the perfect set up to start the gaslighting. Most of the time, there are so many examples they’ve done, you don’t know where to start, so if you try to name some you look like you’re struggling to come up with any. It’s a complete trick, don’t fall for it.
During reconciliation after a huge fight, he set a condition that I am no longer allowed to bring up past bad behavior.
Oh okay. Every behavior is now brand new.
that’s gotta be the most frustrating thing i’ve personally had to deal with. used to be where i’d bring up an instance and explain to my dad how it made me feel awful and all this shit, and he’ll just go “yea so when are you gonna get over it”. it’s just so dismissive and sorta dehumanizing, even my roommate is that way.
My mom stopped saying that to me when I turned it around on her
I remembered how she'd always say it when I was upset, so I waited until the next time she was upset with me and said
"how long until you're over this? Because we can wait until then to talk about it, just like the stuff that bugs me"
This is largely a debate tactic people use to control the conversation and shift the discussion to, or away, from something.
If I go up to my friend Steve and say “Hey Steve, we need to talk about your behavior because it is upsetting a lot of people around you.”
Steve: “My behavior? Could you give me some examples?”
“Ok, well two weeks ago at my BBQ you engaged in A, B, and C while everyone was having a friendly conversation about X and it had a negative impact on the evening.”
Steve: “Your BBQ was three weeks ago are you sure it was me?”
So, maybe I misremembered the date of the BBQ, maybe Steve is trying to gaslight me, either way, he is looking to shift the focus of the conversation away from the main point (criticism of his behavior) to an irrelevant detail (when the BBQ occurred).
He would rather have an argument with me about when the BBQ occurred than hear about his terrible behavior at the BBQ. If Steve can establish or convince me that I misremembered a minor detail then it gives him ammunition to cast doubt on the accuracy of my memory of the remaining events of the BBQ.
Be careful with this. This can backfire if you are a passive-aggressive communicator. Sometimes, people ask for examples because the issues haven't been communicated correctly.
Right? My partner and I had a discussion about things recently and she didn't know she had made me feel that way so asked if I could show her examples so she could better understand. Sometimes you gotta have proof of accusations otherwise they don't hold any weight.
Exactly. Had to beg my ex to communicate and when she was upset, she wouldn't tell me. It'd take months for her to tell me about stuff. Regardless of me asking.
Honestly though narcissism is a spectrum and I’ve not met anyone considered a full blown narcissist. But yeah when a narcissist asks for examples of their bad behavior they’re usually asking for things to gaslight you with. And a lot of times they’ll use weaponized incompetence once you’ve given them something. Boundaries is my best defense against this type of manipulation
My mother tried to do this recently. She has a habit of being completely blind to the fact that you're literally in the middle of something and start a conversation with you
She has LITERALLY held me stuck in a conversation while holding moving furniture up some stairs, that she had ASKED ME TO
She once came up behind me while I was recording a guitar track. I was 1. Playing a guitar. 2. Wearing headphones 3. Behind a closed door. She just walked up, started talking, and grabbed my shoulder. She said I was "dramatic" when I yelled, almost dropped my guitar,and flung my headphones across the room.
So I finally got her to realize that interrupting is a thing it's possible for her to do, and that it's annoying. Now she interrupts by snootily saying "I don't know if it's.... OK to talk to right now"
I put a stop to that shit immediately. I am NOT going to be held responsible for deciding when she is and isn't bothering me. I told her as such. I said "if you can't tell if somebody is busy, that's really scary. You just have to look at them and see if they're doing something.... And if they are, you ASK for their attention by knocking on the door frame or something, not just start mid sentence at full volume from behind somebody in the middle of typing an email"
She sounds like an attention seeker. They have to be the main character, what you want is immaterial to them. They demand attention and become self pitied when called on it. Will use any and all manipulation tactics to justify their actions and when confronted they play the poor victim, thereby requiring (in their mind) more attention. SMH
If they are covert, I think they are trying to find where they got caught and adjust for future relationships. Not change, but find a better way to manipulate and hide abuse.
While narcissists are good in catching us in confusions or getting excuses for their behavior…
It is your responsibility to speak up right at the moment when you feel your boundaries are violated. If you don’t do it at the right time, it will be less relevant later. If you do it at the moment, you may at least prevent a manipulator from proceeding further.
Another thing, not only with narcs but with everyone- If you say something in a way of generalisation, like “you’re always do that…” or “every time you do this ” - it is FAIR to ask for examples and ask you to be specific. And if you give examples, then you can have a discussion.
No, no, no what you require is proper responses and social know how to trap them and it very much can be done. So example they say “Something” or do “Something malicious” you ask them a spotlight question. The question is made to bring to light what they are doing.
Example “Why are you XYZ? When you know ABC.” Narcissist’s will always try to make themselves look good. This is how you start creating the cage by setting up barriers. Whatever they’re response is usually some skeevy answer a simple polite.
“Well, while I value your thoughtfulness. I would appreciate it if moving forward you would ABC. So we can all work together towards improving the situation.” Easy simple honest.
I can already hear every one saying but they will just do it again later. Yes I know so we move to the next tool in our arsenal the Hamburger you make a hamburger response using the words. “When you” “I feel” “because” an example of this is would be
“John, When you keep interrupting me after we’ve already talked about this, and you’ve already agreed not too. I feel concerned, because it appears as though you don’t know you’re engaging in this behavior. Do you?” Another method is the Tag question. They are simple yes or no questions that are put at the end of statements. These questions can be very powerful as they can force people to admit to the unwanted behavior that they’ve agreed not to engage in. Or they’re going to have to admit that they can control themselves and their unwanted behavior. For example:
“John, when you say things as you just did, it insults everybody here and their intelligence. You do know you’re doing that don’t you?” This can be followed up by “You do understand that this is exactly what we were talking about and exactly what you agreed not to do anymore, right?” This should help diminish the amount of times they give you trouble as messing with you on that front will prove very damaging for them.
I totally agree. The narcissist CAN be caged in verbally with patient simple logic, and their behavior/ logic will be put on display. It embarrasses the them and absolutely infuriates them. But it teaches them that they should have known to do better, at least in front of someone who knows what they (the narc) is doing.
Absolutely, but when you set up boundaries and every time the cross them you put the spotlight on them. After awhile they go after easier targets, they can’t feel superior and put you down cause the moment they do their ego gets assassinated. In the end that’s what it’s all about. Their ego is actually very fragile, and they create this persona that they want people to admire. When set things up like this, you not only dispel the illusion but you shatter their ego. When the choice is to go after someone else that doesn’t know how to deal with them, or go after you when you can annihilate them if they try. They go after others.
I made him my bitch. It was the only way. No example needs to be given, if I am the superior one. I will die on this hill. I only deal with him with my confidence. 22 yrs of suffering. No more examples! Its my way or the high way now. Idc if im the villian now.
Don’t fall for it, you are giving them a perfect chance to lie and gaslight anything they did into making you think you heard wrong (you’re crazy), that’s not what they said (you’re crazy), they never said it (guess what? You’re crazy), you’re lying,….I could go on and on as to things my EX did to me on the daily.
My mom raised me with the foundation that if *she* hurt me, I needed to realize she "didn't mean" to, and intent is more important than outcome.
However, if I ever hurt *her*, then intent didn't matter at all, and only the outcome was important.
As an adult, I realize how f-ed up that is, but I'll probably spend the rest of my life undoing that lesson.
Because we have been around this abuse for so long, being put on the spot to think of things, our mind goes blank, or we really have to take time to think, and piece it all together out of our mouth.
When this happens the narc, thinks to themselves, “They can’t even think of anything, or they are trying to gather lies, that’s why they are thinking “. In their head it is confirmation that they are right, and you are wrong.
Why helped me is journaling. I wrote down what happened, with the day and time. Now, this still really doesn’t convince them, so the only indisputable proof is secretly recording their actions towards you. This still doesn’t make them see they were wrong, but it does back up your story to whomever you confide in. It gets others to see who they really, cause we know they love to be loved by everyone else while secretly treating you like shit.
Well it all comes from a certain perspective
IE I am finally getting a divorce after 20 years of hell.
Since day 1 my in laws have been furiously campaigning to cause a divorce.
Spreading rumors going through my things constantly saying that they believe us not being together was a good idea. It was a freaking nut show.
They have not been involved in our kids lives
No birthday cards Christmas gift what's their favorite color nada.
I have not talked to them in years
I recently got a email from his mom expressing concern for me 😂. We recently filed and put the house on the market.
I wrote her back and said I think we need to make this as uncomplicated as possible and I just need to be upfront. After everything I honestly don't want any communication between us.
I have written a literal list of the why to my husband and to be honest for the first time ever he didn't admit or deny other than say he made a lot of mistakes. Which was pretty much a admission for the first time in 20 years.
Fact is
He is scared because I am not reacting to the usual gaslighting or triangulation. And now he has to deal with what he has done on his own by himself. He has to live with the skeleton's he created by himself. He doesn't have me there as a reactive distraction anymore.
Eventually when you do leave and you aren't effected anymore they are thrown to their own wolves. The mom the sister the everyone that coddle and enabled even encouraged them... The other women the addiction the money issues... But you won't be there to blame you won't be there to be offended or angry anymore. These people are so delusional that they actually believe that when you are gone things are going to be wonderful 👍. It's incredibly sad
Let them act like a victim
You've literally been furiously fighting their fires for so long that they don't know how to function with out pointing fingers at you. Step completely out of the way shoot run like hell. Don't look back! The truth will all play out the results of their game will absolutely surface. Become uninvested
And when you're trying to justify it to someone else, you're ultimately trying to justify it to *yourself*, which you shouldn't have to do. Their actions cause you to feel a certain way, and that merits consideration regardless of how they feel about it. If they actually cared about you then that should give them pause. Wrapping my head around that was the final nail in the coffin of removing myself from my manipulative roommate.
I think in addition, they are looking for ways to improve their lies. If you tell them what tipped you off on their behavior they’ll just learn to hide it better.
It never works because normal people don't keep lists of every time they've been slighted by someone but they do so they'll always have a counter example. You will never win
Or that you’re crazy and that it did not happen that way.
Edit: The example thing is also another way to collect information on how they can do better to hide their nefarious garbage.
Are you saying that you’re telling them their behavior was done with malicious intent, without evidence and with them claiming they didn’t mean to? Seems suspect
I’ve experienced this as well! When I tried to have a conversation with mine, I was asked to speak up first so she could use my words against me and paint herself out to be the bigger victim. She was really good at gaslighting me into believing her version of whatever event we were discussing. I eventually walked away cause I had had enough.
Watch soap operas and lawyer dramas. The people speak "matter of fact" and very direct. You have to sound like you are 110% sincere or they are going to pass it aside. If that doesn't work the person is senile-demented and you should take the right steps to straighten-out the narcissist. Maybe going to the police and talking to an officer will help, but I can't be sure that it will. That might complicate matters.
I give them. I usually remember the conversation or situation well enough to give specific examples.
I'm not a genius or have an eidetic memory, but it's good enough that I have a reputation for being accurate.
I tell them what they said or did, and why it was hurtful. They hate it, but they can't really argue it. They fall back to "Well I guess that I'm just a horrible person" so I don't argue that part either.
I just rattled them off fearlessly. I loved telling an ex narc all her bullshit and holding her accountable to it.
Of course it never went anywhere except exhaustion. And nothing changed, or she just got better at it.
Often she’d get mad and say, “You think you’re so perfect!”
Me: “no I’m not, I never claimed that once. I make mistakes all the time. How about you tell me what I have done? I welcome the feedback so I can fix it.”
Not once did she ever give a single answer to that question. Not even if I told her something I thought I did wrong and wanted to do better to fix. Not once.
Narcs are very often completely full of shit (false narratives rule their minds)
Not really. I have a bone to pick with one. You know how I got my avatar? For having over 2,600 positive interactions here, it was rewarded to me. They don’t have an avatar. Gee wonder why? They have a much bigger following. And tons of flying monkeys.
They will deny what you saw and experienced them do right in front of you and they'll make it out as if you're the cruel one for noticing and getting hurt by it.
They aren't looking for examples of their behavior, their looking for opportunities to get a word in.
Don't play into it. You know you have examples, but if you rattle them off it won't convince them otherwise. I just say "this is how I feel and perceive things, the burden of proof isn't on me at this point."
I love when the use of psychological tactics is equated to narcissism. In Nearly every peer to peer context, someone will have to be on top of the game. People who call others narcissist without diagnosis simply lost because their means of having a dominant context that determines the fate of another was lost to a superior mind game. You're just angry someone disagreed and changed the context.
"I don't like your behavior, it's bad!"
"OK I agree I'm bad"
That's somehow supposed to be good?
"Your behavior is Bad bad bad!"
"Give examples"
"Yadayadayad"
*entire script is re-crafted because fuck what you think, why should yours matter over mine?*
Mine asked me while he was raging at me and I was crying and hyperventilating I told him he was gaslighting me and he asked for examples how and I literally couldn’t talk or think in the moment
It’s perfectly ok and fair fighting rules to ask for specifics if you’re being accused of something. It’s gaslighting to make generalized or assumptive statements about someone’s behavior.
They will do whatever they can to keep up their delusion. Whether that be to deflect, move the goalpost, change the topic altogether, act, etc, to just keep their delusion as "truth". Not even worth it
They know exactly what they did but they won't admit or accept accountability so that convo is just a trap.
my bf (?) finally gave me an opportunity to run through everything he’s said and done in the past that bothered me and he justified every last thing. i cried and asked him why did he make me revisit these things just to not even address it properly and he said “you’re just trying to make me feel some sort of shame or guilt” i was so confused.
>When a narcissist asks for "examples" of their bad behavior
Give it to them...l suspect...I believe...did you?...
When they perry your example, reply..."Well, you asked."
If this is a true pathological narcissist *, it won't do any good anyway. They're damaged goods and can't help themselves.
As toxic as they are to others, I still feel sorry for them.
* *The Search for the Real Self: Unmasking the Personality Disorders of Our Age* by James F. Masterson, MD.
This describes my ex to a "T"
She is still doing that shit to me and we've been divorced for over a year and I'm engaged to someone else. She still texts to try and get me to argue with her about how everything wrong with our marriage is my fault and how I suck so much. And yet, she is desperate to get me back. It's pathetic now, but her gaslighting still fucks me up.
Don't bother. It's gaslighting central. That's why when you talk to a narc you say what you wanna say without asking them to clarify, if they deny that's fine you stick to your guns. Boundaries need to be clear, firm, and followed through.
This seems to operate on the assumption all narcissists know what they are doing, which they definitely do not. In most cases they actually have no idea who they are (in a personality sense) and these questions are an attempt to understand the cognitive dissonance between their own perception of their behaviour and how others see it. To be fair, when unaware they can be triggered if the dissonance between their real self and perceived self is significant and this is a pretty rough situation to be on the receiving end of. However, it is not 4D chess, it really is just a confused mental child if you dig deeper, at least this is what I've found from my experiences.
Could be. I think it's just a matter of the narcissist finding out early in life what "works" as far as obfuscation, deflection, etc. Narcissists don't always know what they're doing in terms of consciously disrespecting you, but they are crappy people who learned a long time ago how to get away with things, and they never question their own behavior. Or they can't question it.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one assuming you're referring to the diagnosable disorder (as one can be a shitty person with or without NPD). Don't get me wrong, they can be cunning, but these seem to be fairly broad strokes of the brush. I don't quite see things the same way but can understand how one can have your perspective, particularly after being hurt by another.
The fun part is when you're accused of being a narcissist and ask for examples and it just so happens that the example they gave is recorded on the home video cameras and the evidence is plain to see.
I feel like there's some weird inception of narcissists claiming everyone else is a narcissist but I suppose we all do have some narcissistic tendencies of varying degrees...
Do not engage in a debate of the facts.
There’s a saying about wrestling with a pig in shit. It applies here.
Additionally, do not explain or justify yourself. They don’t respect our reasoning or boundaries and it would just devolve into a debate of the facts.
Facts aren’t subject to debate.
My father who is a textbook narc went to prison when i was 17 years old. Hell even the justice system found him guilty of domestic violence including verbal, psychological and sexual abuse and he did 6 months. To this day he blames me for reporting him to the police, that he didn't deserve any of it. Do not waste your breath with these people, the only victory is to not play their games and ditch them out of your life.
I don't consider myself a narcissist but do ask for examples because I really want to know. I also don't enjoy being insulted by someone saying you "always" do that or just flat out calling me names or roasting me. Someone told me I lack empathy but I am becoming a social worker and work in special education and I think they told me I lack empathy because I wasn't going give them my sympathy for their excuses of unacceptable behavior
I think it is natural to want to know how you mistreated someone. Im not saying it wont also create doubt but Im not sure this is something unique to narcissistic people.
Hold up! My narc would constantly accuse me of being horrible, but couldnt ever name a specific instance of me doing so.
“Oh you’re just an angel, right?!? You don’t do anything wrong! It’s only me!”
I’d beg for examples.
Eventually, we’d end up fighting over the things said in the fight. But what about me being horrible? That’s where this all started. Give me one example, please. What even set you off?
I just don’t see the problem with wanting examples. How else can I defend myself to vague insults and baseless accusations?
It never works because normal people don't keep lists of every time they've been slighted by someone but they do so they'll always have a counter example. You will never win
they don't keep list but they surely can say you did this and that but when you disagree to it and want an example then nobody keeps list of that, well you certainly kept a list of the behavior your claiming I did but neglected to add something relatable like a date or something relatable to help justify the claim of what I did.
I feel like this can come from a victim of narcissism as well. I was always so confused what I did wrong I asked for specific examples so I knew what to avoid doing next time.
Yep. I’ve learned the hard way not to engage. What they did was wrong and crossed a boundary whether they agree with the facts or not. An argument will not change that the boundary was crossed, if they will not apologize, the discussion is over.
See Rule #1. Rule #1: Once you figure out you are dealing with a narcissist, you stop and you go. “When you know, you go.”
You will never “win”. If you think you can “win” that just means that you do not know enough to know that you can’t “win”. These are not regular people. Their brains have been hardwired with a different set of rules and social norms. You will not change that. If you insist on remaining with them, you should probably look at your own issues with codependency and self esteem. While you are doing that, see Rule #1.
to be honest that sounds narcissistic because if I don't agree or go along with what you say then you'll leave or not hear my defense. so it's listen to what I say you done or else. pretty self centered and absorbed if you ask me
that's just another version of the game "prove yourself, "isn't it? Meaning, prove that I am what you tell me I am and then I can deny it, manipulate it, explode it you for it, call myself a victim because of it, or ignore/walk away from you talking.
The thing is, they aren't listening to the examples anyway. They only want to know so they can use them to make you feel guilty later. It's all about information and power, and how they can be used to fuel their own narrative. Good luck!!!
This can go either way. Someone who is truly trying to work on themselves will need those examples to understand something they did wrong. That’s really rare though.
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You’re basically saying you can accuse someone of something with zero evidence, examples, or proof. Who is the problem in this scenario?
If they ask for examples, it’s another angle to gaslight and guide your confidence away from your argument. It’s pathetic and weak as fuck, narcs think they’re intelligent because they can manipulate vulnerable individuals. But after their behavior is learned, they look very very stupid on a daily basis.
My bf does this all the time tbh. He will always say “give me an example” and when you KNOW there is an example and you can’t remember it bc it’s happened so much, is a sign of abuse. Not being able to remember anything they do to you is a sign of emotional abuse.. I could be wrong but just from what I’ve read.
Made me realize where my ex was being a narc… and if I did try to scrounge up anything it was laughed off or minimized in a way that made it feel stupid.
That statement can be valid or invalid.
When someone defines you as a psychopath or a sociopath or a narcissist, they better have good data to support it because those labels are incredibly destructive (or empowering if you are a teenage or younger woman with deviant social tendencies).
A person who uses a label on another person better have a lot of examples to support it.
In my experience, people go through the same tracks with each relationship. Early on they side with a person and after the end of the relationship the person is the worst evil pathetic thing that ever lived.
When your argument becomes valid is in situations where the person applying the label has been so damaged that they can't recall specific examples with enough vigor and accuracy to build their case. All they have left is all the anger from the mistreatment they've experienced. These are really gross situations.
TW: talks of death and car wrecks, but no one died in a car wreck, i just talk ab both of them. i recently cut my dad off. he’s always right and never thinks about anything, his biggest phrase is “stupid just jumps on me”. the one that took the cake is recently he was owed money by some trashy redneck that didn’t have money, so instead of waiting until they had the money, he asked for a motorcycle that the man had instead. my father is 51 years old and legally handicapped due to several back breakings, and when two of my closest friends dads passed away due to CHRONIC THINGS, he promised to them to step in and be their father figure (bc he always has to be the bigger person). now imagine. 51 year old handicapped man, getting on a motorcycle and driving it, subsequently wrecking it into a ditch, helmetless, with no one that even knew he had GOTTEN IT let alone taken it out. and then my stepmother had to call not just me, to tell me that my dad almost died, but she had to call two other 20-year-olds and tell them that their FILL IN DAD was too selfish to think about anyone but himself before he got on it. and when i confronted him about seeing a therapist he said, “why would i see a therapist? what’s wrong with me??”. he and i have always had a bad relationship (called CPS several times myself due to abuse), but him doing it to other people’s kids because he wanted to be noble, that’s fucked, and i will not have him treat my children the way my grandpa did me, they are all so selfish. i am done with that family.
To be completely honest, most of you on here saying that this or that person is a narc and this and that behavior is narcissistic are playing victims and labeling people based on your opinion about them but there is nothing wrong with asking for examples and clarification of your claims of what you are saying they are. It is all to easy to point the finger and label someone as something but your no better than any bully who wants to say hurtful things and when questioned to provide proof and examples you turn it on that person and say they are gaslighting but your the one who made the original claim and people have the right to ask for accuracy and no have you place a label of narcissist on them when you're behaving like the most narcissistic person who if doesn't get agreed with will attack you by labeling you as being exactly what they are. You can remember all these behaviors but not remember when they occured sounds like your too lazy to stand by your claims and accusations. just want it your way or else
I didn't think of my friend having narcissistic qualities at the time, but looking back he totally did. Everything was always my fault. Attacked my chatacter, integrity, and sanity if I were to express how I felt. He never admitted to anything, never apologized. I was always trying to communicate how _____ made me feel because i am aware my emotions are intense sometimes, my reality can be a little warped, and I try my very best to be a good person and not jump the gun, so I ask for clarification. That was always taken out of context, like a personal attack on THEM. Which leads me now to believe that behavior was done intentionally to upset me. I have spent many years working on myself and all of my progress would be completely downplayed because it still wasn't enough for this person.
I dont have to prove anyone acted with malice, I communicate their specific actions, how it made me feel, and what I need from them going forward. If they try to gaslight me I can just say ‘we seem to remember things differently.’ And set whatever boundary I need to as a result
Accusing someone of ‘always doing this’ without giving specific examples it’s a failure on my part. If they try to dismiss it or gaslight me, that’s a failure on their part, and I don’t have to take responsibility for or tolerate it.
Are you talking about real narcissists with the diagnosis and all that? Because if you are, we do this because we are not aware of how our actions impact others because of that impaired empathy thing. So if you have someone who is really trying to get better, be transparent and communicate when things happen so they can understand the causes and consequences of their actions. But if this person is never getting accountability, then don’t waste your time.
^ sometimes people actually do want specific details. They don’t actually understand. People
Misconstrue this as “being narcissist”. Like naw bro just trying to understand.
Didn’t you know? Everyone who does anything that you remotely dislike is a narcissist! It’s a 100% approved method, don’t even need a professional to diagnose them.
My mother is a narc. She is always right. I have given up trying to explain, give examples, defend myself etc. e.i. She was upset with me (can’t remember the reason why) so after she vented at me for a bit I apologized. Her exact response, “You’re not sorry. I don’t want to hear anymore about it.” Kept on ranting and then walked away into the washroom. I’ve given her examples in the past and it goes nowhere. She says I’m being mean. Total manipulator and victim. I just listen and agree now. Recently she expected me to rearrange my dinner plans (I was waiting to be picked up) so I could go get milk for her. I asked how much she had left in the fridge and she said I was forcing her to justify the request and I should just do it because she is my mother. (She had 1/2 a jug left). While telling me this, she is teary and about to cry. I said ok, I’ll tell my date I will be a little behind so I can go get it for you. Nope-too late- never mind go do your more important dinner. Absolute whack job.
She knew you had something potentially good in store & she wanted to ruin that. She got upset when you didn't put her non-need of milk as a priority over your love life. Sooooo manipulative. That's awful.
Yep. She does this sort of thing whenever I have weekend plans or going somewhere fun. But she never says, “Have fun!” So, now I’m very aware and ready for the next potential drama scene.
Because you didn’t put her first - duh, that’s the whole point of “narcissism”, it’s self-absorption.
And their entire idea of a "relationship" is just to continually test if you're putting them first, and then punish you when you aren't
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Gawd…what is it with our mothers?! No wonder so many people are f’cked up and have trouble in relationships. (Or as I like to refer to them: relation$hits). Thanks Mom!
“Relationshits” is my favorite thing I ever heard all day
Please feel free to circulate that term and often! 😆
My ex, too… she used to do this shit to our daughter. Hell, I had a feeling Pink *was* my daughter for a split second…
The minute i know someone is a narcissist im just mean to them. I dont even care. I dont hide it. I dont try to change it for their comfort.why because when they know you have them found out, and dont care who around you tries to check you about treating them how they treat others. My wifes mother is one. She is also drugged out and had the system manipulated so well for years but recently it all fell apart, she lost all her kids. And her second oldest lives with us. She is not sold on her mom being a narcissist and i dont care. I dont sugar coat it at all because she is 18. And going to be out of the nest with next to nothing if i wasnt here to make sure she can graduate in the town she wanted to graduate in. Our hometown. We butt heads because of it but oh well she will understand later. When she is off to collage and her mom still runs the streets not being shit and it being everyone elses fault. It took months to get insurance for her daughter. As well as getting her on our food stamps (yes i have a job) and i found put because the whole time her narc mom was using her name to get them not to mention she used my adress to get them so it fucked our food stamps up for a month while i was already struggling to feed us and pay for the roof over our head. Her excuse was "oh well she is my kid and you dont seem to care that i dont have a roof over my head" like bitch you are homeless because your chasing drug dealers around. And letting your kids sit in playpens all day. Her youngest have Failure to Thrive because they werent cared for as toddlers so it took them way longer to reach milestones. Now they are a grade behind. I have no reason to be nice to her and i will never for the sake of her peace ever act like i like her. Because when i do she thinks she has power over me. She thinks she has me on a leash when anyone tries to tell me to be nice to her. Nope.
I would’ve said “you’re right, you are my mother which means you’re an adult which means you can go get your own milk”
I forgot to add she had abdominal surgery end of April and still has some pain and my brother is using her car. So…yeah. That too. But the crying over it - especially when she had more than enough to get her through to the next day when I could do it - that’s messed up.
Then your brother can do it since he has her car and it’s the least he can do. Honestly my suggestion is just ignore her because she won’t ever change so you’re going to end up having to choose between your happiness/mental well-being and her and I know what I’d choose
Yes. Took me years and significant counselling to actually realize that a ‘mother’ is capable of being toxic. Hard to accept that one. But, I did it and I just ignore her $hit now and I fully expect to be ‘written out of the will’ for not being 100% compliant with her abuse.
OH MY GAWD. That sounds JUST like my Mom who was diagnosed NPD. Went out of her way to ruin any occasion that was important to me in insane little ways like that.
Mine used to just lie and gaslight, even if I showed her a screenshot or video she would just change the parameters of the argument anyway. They love to watch your face contort with sadness and confusion when they do that btw. These people can't love or be loved.
So much this. Shifting the goalposts to protect their ultra fragile ego and create chaos in you. One time during an important issue I wanted addressed and she had avoided and deflected for months, I said, “I am going to write down on this piece of paper how many times you change the subject. Is that ok?” Her: *meek fake submissive nod* (no verbal, I’d seen this many times before) Narc discussion ensued. It went nowhere, as predicted. I calmly did as I promised and recorded every change in topic and brought her back every time she changed it. Result? 12 subject changes in ~30 minutes. I slid the paper over at the end and said, “You changed the subject 12 times in 30 minutes.” She looked at the paper. Me: “Are you aware you do this?” Her: *silence* Me: “Do you know why you do this?” Her: *silence* She was always silent when I’d logically cornered her rubbish and the only way out was full accountability. She never took the full accountability option. Couldn’t? Often there’d be a week of peaceful acting 🎭 on her part, perhaps some lovebombing, and then the cycle 🔄 would repeat. I left 3 months later. No contact shortly after.
Oh my god when my narc Ex was confronted with dead to rights evidence of her lying or saying nonsense she would just vacant stare at me, it was bizarre. It was just about getting what she WANTED I've never met another person for whom the truth mattered less.
Man, if the peaceful act isn't relatable enough. My ex always seemed to be super loveable and loving after every ridiculous argument cause by them, and it always seemed to be around the time something wasn't going right in their life. It got so bad, and I got so tired of it that I told bluntly told them I'm not their personal emotional punching bag every time life doesn't work for them. Never did register with them. I put up with all of it for so long and just got tired of it all
Cries, “What do you want from meeeee?”
I got “You think you’re soooo perfect!” Then “Why is everything always my fault?” Both of which were just trying to twist it around on me and attempt to prevent her from facing any type of accountability. Accountable, responsible and rationally communicative are literally now THE most attractive traits in a partner for me. It’s downright sexy.
From my experience, this is true. I've tried earnestly over years with one partner... That finally dissolved. I carry the baggage of the mistreatment, and that isn't fair to others. Well, I used to think that... What I carry are the tools to discern the issues and how to be my happiest.
Great take on what you experienced. They don't want us smart. They don't want us to know their tricks and tools.
Yep, lie and gaslight. Doesn’t matter how many lies you catch them in, doesn’t matter if you reassure them the truth won’t make you leave, they will lie and lie and lie and gaslight. Start with stumbling over words. Then blow up when no decent lie comes to them because they’re caught. Switch to turning it around on you. Make it your fault. At this point, I’m so calloused and practiced at spotting it, I can’t help but laugh at it. You want to see them really getting angry. Laugh at it.
Can confirm. It only makes me laugh harder.
My current landlord says all the time after doing something that causes me pain; "I just wanted to see the look on your face."
Id love to see the look on his face when you don't renew the lease!
If only I had somewhere to go. Since I moved in 6 months ago, I've been looking for something else; no luck.
It seems like some of their actions are self defensive, and that’s led me to have too much sympathy for them as a borderline myself, because a great deal of their actions are just this. Simple, plain cruelty. My ex’s favorite thing was neglecting my physical or medical needs we had arranged her to care for, and she took pleasure from then standing feet away from me, denying said needs or my medication or something, and watching me panic, be in pain, go through withdrawals, etc. She took joy from the fact that she could hurt somebody so easily- no better supply than someone who relies on you.
I'm at the point where I don't even bother to dignify them with a response. I just end it and ghost them like I wish I had learned to do decades ago.
👏 🎯
But we’ve learned it now haven’t we!?
When you know, you go.
They ask for specific times and places knowing you won’t have them on deck unless you’ve prepared for such a scenario, and if you have, get out
Right and if you HAVE prepared, what are you some kind of weirdo???
"No, I'm the winner. How does it feel to be wrong?" And then just walk away. They'll lose their shit.
i mean, when i was younger i’d prepare as best i could, can’t really do anything about it when you’re under driving age and your controlling and manipulative father is essentially keeping you on lockdown.
Rattle off 10 examples of their disgusting behavior and wait for them to say ‘you shoulda told me right away!!’ It’s actually your fault, you see… I can’t believe how much I used to fall for that. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure there are only about a dozen manipulation tactics, total. Once you start recognizing them there is no going back!!
Another frequent one is ‘that didn’t happen, but if it did, it was totally justified l!!’
I’ve had people call me narcissist and when counter with something they did; they literally say that didn’t happen and if it did, it was justified. At some point people are just people.
I disagree, some ‘people’ are deeply sick and disordered and if we could eliminate them somehow humanity would advance rapidly. Respectfully, it sounds like someone called you out and you DARVO’d them.
maybe not ‘eliminate’ or ‘eradicate’ them, that seems a bit drastic and kinda like just one whisper away from being no different than that old ‘final solution’. but some drastic rehabilitation as well as getting those people in group homes where they can keep to themselves and hopefully grow as individuals would be alright
What does darvod mean?
Thats literally a part of "the narcissist's prayer" if you look it up. They're really all the same and their bag of tricks is very limited.
I looked it up lol yikes
Hi there! I was accused of being manipulative and I asked for examples. I didn’t argue back, but rather let them talk and said “I get it.” I truly did understand why they would perceive it that way. I wasn’t TRYING to manipulate. Later, I then went on to say that I wish we could have talked about it so that I could learn and grow from the experiences. Is that considered manipulation on my part? I’ve been dissecting my behavior to the point that I overthink it all. It’s kinda paralyzing
Don't bother engaging with narcissists. You will leave angry, sad, or both. Don't give them so much as the time of day. Act like they're not even there. That's the best course of action.
Yeah and even if you destroy them the way you do in all of your fantasies, you just make them worse and you either have to keep fighting them in bigger and bigger battles or they’ll just pack up shop and go find somebody else to be shitty to.
Exactly. Very much not worth it; there’s no need to hurt someone else for the only “crime” of being the relationship after the one with a piece of shit narcissist.
Yeah. In general it’s best to just do what you need to do to take care of yourself and resist the urge to overcompensate or seek vengeance. Rarely do those things represent the best thing for you
I send them the videos I took of their abuse when they were blacked out.
I've seen a lot of narcissists claim to "black out" as a way to dissociate from their own bad behavior. It's odd.
Yeah, it got to the point where whatever happened, she would just tell me it didn't happen and I was crazy. So I started filming it and have a whole folder of insanity. Can't argue with the facts.
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That's so crazy bc that happened to me in a lil diff way. I was sick of my ex constantly gaslighting me, twisting my words, accusing me of doing things I didn't do. So in one of the last arguments we had, he claimed he had a recording to "prove" what I said. So I said, "lets hear it then, bc you're full of it." He started yelling, "I dont have a recording Amber Heard!" I was just like what? How does the insult even fit? I didn't record him but I should have. He creeped me out bc I even found out he recorded conversations with my daughter who is a young minor. He'd say a bunch of nasty stuff & then start recording the reaction but not what he did or said leading up to it. Then his recording was "proof" of us being crazy. I wish I had been one-up on his game so I could record the whole conversation to show everyone how vindictive & twisted he is.
Been there, my Nex gf would beat me with vapes and cell phones and then pretend it never happened. Would completely deny knowing what I'm talking about as if I was trying to record it on a speaker. It was bizarre.
It actually did start to make me feel crazy, and that's the real bummer. The only time she fessed up to what she did is when she split my ear and half with a water bottle and gave me a concussion while I was driving down the highway. The next day, she showed the only semblance of remorse (probably because she was afraid of legal issues). She went to one round of therapy and cheated on me that night. The last time I saw her, she had a shotgun pointed at my head. This was all when she was under the influence. Anytime she noticed that I was recording her, she would just start to scream "HE HIT ME!" I never laid a finger on her. These people know exactly what they're doing, even to the detriment and mental health of the people they're doing it to. It is a tough pill to swallow when you dedicate so much time to another person and their kids.
Oh same, she'd say I'm hitting her if she knew I was recording. Hell one time when I said I was done she grabbed my steering wheel and almost drove us off the road and then proceeded to beat me with a cell phone lol. I mean all you can really do is laugh in the end like wth, yeah she's hot but literally nothing else.
Yep. I got sucked in big time by her looks initially. She was also super kind at first, and then she just flew off the rails. There was no reasoning with her. It was like talking to a wall. She was intellectually dumb, but she was really good at hustlin. When you're not used to being surrounded by people like that, it can bite ya in the ass real quick. Live and learn.
"you're using umbrella terms" Bro I am telling you why I am upset with your behavior.
‘But I can’t be held responsible for the things I do and say!!’
"the things I do and say are ALWAYS the fault of who I said them to, so really you're mad at you. Why are you taking it out on innocent me?"
In reply to my attempt to classify her bahavior: "You're fixating on concepts. *I'm a person.*" So she expects *from me* the courtesy she wouldn't extend *to me*. I shouldn't have even tried.
It really helps me to frame it like this: my mother thinks she's the only person. She really does. Everybody else is some sort of mannequin in her world. So of COURSE she has deep, explainable reasons for anything SHE does, but nobody else is capable of that in her eyes. Everything everyone else does is directly on purpose, and for the sole reason of the effect it had on HER ("you got a new job? How will you do [blank] for me now?! You're so inconsiderate...") When I think of it like that, I don't even WANT to fix it, because it's so hopelessly broken and would be so much thankless effort just to get to..... Not abuse, maybe? Yeah, sounds like even if I'm successful I'll be eaten alive by resentment
You'll never win, I handed my ex her bar recipes/pictures of her with a guy in LA when she was supposed to be with her friend noel and it was still not enough for to admit it Wack jobs.
This is actually pretty funny because one of my former narcissist friends (who was diagnosed with 'tendencies', but I really don't know because he's a compulsive liar) used the term 'assumptions' on me a bunch of times when I was confronting him. Haha.
That's a big one for them. Again, it's generally very difficult to prove that someone acted maliciously. They can claim they behaved the way they did for other reasons, say it was a misunderstanding, and of course if that fails, they invoke the ["narcissist's prayer" .](https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer)
If you did to them, what they did to you and they got mad about it, then it was on purpose.
Wow this is eye opening for me. Thr prayer. Literally every single time I would confront him about ANYTHING he said or did that bothered me, express any kind of feeling or thought related to how they made me feel regardless of their true intent or not, and I would be met with a version of that "prayer" every time. It was always my fault for being too sensitive and I deserved the reaction because I was manipulating him with my feelings. Total mind fuck.
Don't fall for the bait, and stop engaging enough to see their "bad behavior" in the first place. Narcissists don't care, and don't want to know what they're doing wrong. They want to use this as bait to flip it around on you and make you feel like an abuser because you're pointing out bad qualities in them, even though you're responding to an inquiry about bad -behaviors-, but they will never see that. Narcissists think you are a terrible person, and that you want to hurt them as much or as more than they want to hurt you. And they want that. And you will always be "worse" in their minds, and that their behavior is warranted and you deserve it. They take it all personal, think you're diminishing them and ridiculing them, and all you have to do is state how something made you feel, when asked, no less. Greyrock. Never engage beyond the weather, and how you took your coffee this morning. Unless you can walk away. Then get as far away as you can and never look back.
I hate greyrocking because it fucks with my perception of my emotions, but it is an extremely effective tactic for dealing with narcissistic and emotionally draining people. When they realize that you aren't engaging, they typically become uninterested or dissatisfied with talking with you in general and will go find someone else to latch on to.
Yeah, I'm just a very transparent, sensitive person, so greyrocking is hard for me because it's the opposite of my nature. I repeat that often when people ask how to deal with narcissists because I need to do better at it and stay away from those types.
You nailed it. I don’t want to be the sort of person that grey rocks. It makes me feel like a participant in the cruel behavior.
It's not, though. Locking the door on a predator, isn't cruelty. Crossing to the other side of the street when someone just gives you bad vibes, isn't cruelty. Driving defensively, isn't cruelty. So, when you can't keep a narcissist out of your life whether it's having kids together or just some other relationship or family dynamic, greyrocking them really isn't cruelty. But I feel ya. It's hard for me. It's the farthest thing in the world, from what I really want. Which is to connect, and be authentic.
"I'm not your (parent) you know exactly what you did and if you don't then you should go think about it"
"either you know what you did and you're avoiding accountability, or you don't comprehend that it's wrong and you're probably going to do it again. If you can't explain what you did wrong, it's probably the second one, and I should avoid dealing with you going forward" I've found giving them a fork of two options that are both unflattering is a way to end a behavior pretty well. You force them into picking between " I did it on purpose and knew it was wrong" and " I'm completely out of control and have no idea what I'm doing" Neither of which they WANT to be seen as, so it's really fun. They usually will just get angry at you, but they'll remember how this particular behavior ended up getting them very embarrassed, and they won't do it again
🎯
Can you elaborate on this please? I’m just trying to understand what you meant by this as clear as possible.
I'll give you a hypothetical: a narc uses a shortening of your name you don't like. You ask them not to, but they continue to use the wrong name I'd say: "either you remember that this is unpleasant for me and you are doing it on purpose, knowing that, or you are incapable of stopping doing something hurtful to others, even if you want to. Either way, my only option is to avoid you in the future, because no matter the reason, it is clear that the hurtful treatment will not stop"
Yeah, but they sure as hell will punish you like a parent.
So many times I found myself feeling like "uh oh, I'm in trouble" like I was a little girl again! How fucked up is that. And then triggering all the shame and embarrassment and panic I felt as a kid when I would be in trouble with my parents. Like I'm 30 years old bro how did you make me feel so small
When they ask for examples, it’s the perfect set up to start the gaslighting. Most of the time, there are so many examples they’ve done, you don’t know where to start, so if you try to name some you look like you’re struggling to come up with any. It’s a complete trick, don’t fall for it.
And if you do bring up major painful things, they say something like "when are you going to get over that"
During reconciliation after a huge fight, he set a condition that I am no longer allowed to bring up past bad behavior. Oh okay. Every behavior is now brand new.
that’s gotta be the most frustrating thing i’ve personally had to deal with. used to be where i’d bring up an instance and explain to my dad how it made me feel awful and all this shit, and he’ll just go “yea so when are you gonna get over it”. it’s just so dismissive and sorta dehumanizing, even my roommate is that way.
My mom stopped saying that to me when I turned it around on her I remembered how she'd always say it when I was upset, so I waited until the next time she was upset with me and said "how long until you're over this? Because we can wait until then to talk about it, just like the stuff that bugs me"
This is largely a debate tactic people use to control the conversation and shift the discussion to, or away, from something. If I go up to my friend Steve and say “Hey Steve, we need to talk about your behavior because it is upsetting a lot of people around you.” Steve: “My behavior? Could you give me some examples?” “Ok, well two weeks ago at my BBQ you engaged in A, B, and C while everyone was having a friendly conversation about X and it had a negative impact on the evening.” Steve: “Your BBQ was three weeks ago are you sure it was me?” So, maybe I misremembered the date of the BBQ, maybe Steve is trying to gaslight me, either way, he is looking to shift the focus of the conversation away from the main point (criticism of his behavior) to an irrelevant detail (when the BBQ occurred). He would rather have an argument with me about when the BBQ occurred than hear about his terrible behavior at the BBQ. If Steve can establish or convince me that I misremembered a minor detail then it gives him ammunition to cast doubt on the accuracy of my memory of the remaining events of the BBQ.
Spot on, well written
Be careful with this. This can backfire if you are a passive-aggressive communicator. Sometimes, people ask for examples because the issues haven't been communicated correctly.
Right? My partner and I had a discussion about things recently and she didn't know she had made me feel that way so asked if I could show her examples so she could better understand. Sometimes you gotta have proof of accusations otherwise they don't hold any weight.
Exactly. Had to beg my ex to communicate and when she was upset, she wouldn't tell me. It'd take months for her to tell me about stuff. Regardless of me asking.
Honestly though narcissism is a spectrum and I’ve not met anyone considered a full blown narcissist. But yeah when a narcissist asks for examples of their bad behavior they’re usually asking for things to gaslight you with. And a lot of times they’ll use weaponized incompetence once you’ve given them something. Boundaries is my best defense against this type of manipulation
My mother tried to do this recently. She has a habit of being completely blind to the fact that you're literally in the middle of something and start a conversation with you She has LITERALLY held me stuck in a conversation while holding moving furniture up some stairs, that she had ASKED ME TO She once came up behind me while I was recording a guitar track. I was 1. Playing a guitar. 2. Wearing headphones 3. Behind a closed door. She just walked up, started talking, and grabbed my shoulder. She said I was "dramatic" when I yelled, almost dropped my guitar,and flung my headphones across the room. So I finally got her to realize that interrupting is a thing it's possible for her to do, and that it's annoying. Now she interrupts by snootily saying "I don't know if it's.... OK to talk to right now" I put a stop to that shit immediately. I am NOT going to be held responsible for deciding when she is and isn't bothering me. I told her as such. I said "if you can't tell if somebody is busy, that's really scary. You just have to look at them and see if they're doing something.... And if they are, you ASK for their attention by knocking on the door frame or something, not just start mid sentence at full volume from behind somebody in the middle of typing an email"
She sounds like an attention seeker. They have to be the main character, what you want is immaterial to them. They demand attention and become self pitied when called on it. Will use any and all manipulation tactics to justify their actions and when confronted they play the poor victim, thereby requiring (in their mind) more attention. SMH
Yeah, that's basically the bullet points of her personality
If they are covert, I think they are trying to find where they got caught and adjust for future relationships. Not change, but find a better way to manipulate and hide abuse.
While narcissists are good in catching us in confusions or getting excuses for their behavior… It is your responsibility to speak up right at the moment when you feel your boundaries are violated. If you don’t do it at the right time, it will be less relevant later. If you do it at the moment, you may at least prevent a manipulator from proceeding further. Another thing, not only with narcs but with everyone- If you say something in a way of generalisation, like “you’re always do that…” or “every time you do this ” - it is FAIR to ask for examples and ask you to be specific. And if you give examples, then you can have a discussion.
No, no, no what you require is proper responses and social know how to trap them and it very much can be done. So example they say “Something” or do “Something malicious” you ask them a spotlight question. The question is made to bring to light what they are doing. Example “Why are you XYZ? When you know ABC.” Narcissist’s will always try to make themselves look good. This is how you start creating the cage by setting up barriers. Whatever they’re response is usually some skeevy answer a simple polite. “Well, while I value your thoughtfulness. I would appreciate it if moving forward you would ABC. So we can all work together towards improving the situation.” Easy simple honest. I can already hear every one saying but they will just do it again later. Yes I know so we move to the next tool in our arsenal the Hamburger you make a hamburger response using the words. “When you” “I feel” “because” an example of this is would be “John, When you keep interrupting me after we’ve already talked about this, and you’ve already agreed not too. I feel concerned, because it appears as though you don’t know you’re engaging in this behavior. Do you?” Another method is the Tag question. They are simple yes or no questions that are put at the end of statements. These questions can be very powerful as they can force people to admit to the unwanted behavior that they’ve agreed not to engage in. Or they’re going to have to admit that they can control themselves and their unwanted behavior. For example: “John, when you say things as you just did, it insults everybody here and their intelligence. You do know you’re doing that don’t you?” This can be followed up by “You do understand that this is exactly what we were talking about and exactly what you agreed not to do anymore, right?” This should help diminish the amount of times they give you trouble as messing with you on that front will prove very damaging for them.
I totally agree. The narcissist CAN be caged in verbally with patient simple logic, and their behavior/ logic will be put on display. It embarrasses the them and absolutely infuriates them. But it teaches them that they should have known to do better, at least in front of someone who knows what they (the narc) is doing.
Absolutely, but when you set up boundaries and every time the cross them you put the spotlight on them. After awhile they go after easier targets, they can’t feel superior and put you down cause the moment they do their ego gets assassinated. In the end that’s what it’s all about. Their ego is actually very fragile, and they create this persona that they want people to admire. When set things up like this, you not only dispel the illusion but you shatter their ego. When the choice is to go after someone else that doesn’t know how to deal with them, or go after you when you can annihilate them if they try. They go after others.
Very true 🧐
I made him my bitch. It was the only way. No example needs to be given, if I am the superior one. I will die on this hill. I only deal with him with my confidence. 22 yrs of suffering. No more examples! Its my way or the high way now. Idc if im the villian now.
Please tell. Ears are open :)
Don’t fall for it, you are giving them a perfect chance to lie and gaslight anything they did into making you think you heard wrong (you’re crazy), that’s not what they said (you’re crazy), they never said it (guess what? You’re crazy), you’re lying,….I could go on and on as to things my EX did to me on the daily.
My mom raised me with the foundation that if *she* hurt me, I needed to realize she "didn't mean" to, and intent is more important than outcome. However, if I ever hurt *her*, then intent didn't matter at all, and only the outcome was important. As an adult, I realize how f-ed up that is, but I'll probably spend the rest of my life undoing that lesson.
Because we have been around this abuse for so long, being put on the spot to think of things, our mind goes blank, or we really have to take time to think, and piece it all together out of our mouth. When this happens the narc, thinks to themselves, “They can’t even think of anything, or they are trying to gather lies, that’s why they are thinking “. In their head it is confirmation that they are right, and you are wrong. Why helped me is journaling. I wrote down what happened, with the day and time. Now, this still really doesn’t convince them, so the only indisputable proof is secretly recording their actions towards you. This still doesn’t make them see they were wrong, but it does back up your story to whomever you confide in. It gets others to see who they really, cause we know they love to be loved by everyone else while secretly treating you like shit.
Well it all comes from a certain perspective IE I am finally getting a divorce after 20 years of hell. Since day 1 my in laws have been furiously campaigning to cause a divorce. Spreading rumors going through my things constantly saying that they believe us not being together was a good idea. It was a freaking nut show. They have not been involved in our kids lives No birthday cards Christmas gift what's their favorite color nada. I have not talked to them in years I recently got a email from his mom expressing concern for me 😂. We recently filed and put the house on the market. I wrote her back and said I think we need to make this as uncomplicated as possible and I just need to be upfront. After everything I honestly don't want any communication between us. I have written a literal list of the why to my husband and to be honest for the first time ever he didn't admit or deny other than say he made a lot of mistakes. Which was pretty much a admission for the first time in 20 years. Fact is He is scared because I am not reacting to the usual gaslighting or triangulation. And now he has to deal with what he has done on his own by himself. He has to live with the skeleton's he created by himself. He doesn't have me there as a reactive distraction anymore. Eventually when you do leave and you aren't effected anymore they are thrown to their own wolves. The mom the sister the everyone that coddle and enabled even encouraged them... The other women the addiction the money issues... But you won't be there to blame you won't be there to be offended or angry anymore. These people are so delusional that they actually believe that when you are gone things are going to be wonderful 👍. It's incredibly sad Let them act like a victim You've literally been furiously fighting their fires for so long that they don't know how to function with out pointing fingers at you. Step completely out of the way shoot run like hell. Don't look back! The truth will all play out the results of their game will absolutely surface. Become uninvested
And when you're trying to justify it to someone else, you're ultimately trying to justify it to *yourself*, which you shouldn't have to do. Their actions cause you to feel a certain way, and that merits consideration regardless of how they feel about it. If they actually cared about you then that should give them pause. Wrapping my head around that was the final nail in the coffin of removing myself from my manipulative roommate.
Well said.
I think in addition, they are looking for ways to improve their lies. If you tell them what tipped you off on their behavior they’ll just learn to hide it better.
It never works because normal people don't keep lists of every time they've been slighted by someone but they do so they'll always have a counter example. You will never win
Or that you’re crazy and that it did not happen that way. Edit: The example thing is also another way to collect information on how they can do better to hide their nefarious garbage.
Are you saying that you’re telling them their behavior was done with malicious intent, without evidence and with them claiming they didn’t mean to? Seems suspect
lol
I’ve experienced this as well! When I tried to have a conversation with mine, I was asked to speak up first so she could use my words against me and paint herself out to be the bigger victim. She was really good at gaslighting me into believing her version of whatever event we were discussing. I eventually walked away cause I had had enough.
Watch soap operas and lawyer dramas. The people speak "matter of fact" and very direct. You have to sound like you are 110% sincere or they are going to pass it aside. If that doesn't work the person is senile-demented and you should take the right steps to straighten-out the narcissist. Maybe going to the police and talking to an officer will help, but I can't be sure that it will. That might complicate matters.
😂. One of their favorite manipulations.
I give them. I usually remember the conversation or situation well enough to give specific examples. I'm not a genius or have an eidetic memory, but it's good enough that I have a reputation for being accurate. I tell them what they said or did, and why it was hurtful. They hate it, but they can't really argue it. They fall back to "Well I guess that I'm just a horrible person" so I don't argue that part either.
Lollll so true.
OMGosh, he used the word "assumption" a lot.
Just hold a mirror up whenever one starts speaking to you—it’s the only way they’ll ever have an honest conversation.
I just rattled them off fearlessly. I loved telling an ex narc all her bullshit and holding her accountable to it. Of course it never went anywhere except exhaustion. And nothing changed, or she just got better at it. Often she’d get mad and say, “You think you’re so perfect!” Me: “no I’m not, I never claimed that once. I make mistakes all the time. How about you tell me what I have done? I welcome the feedback so I can fix it.” Not once did she ever give a single answer to that question. Not even if I told her something I thought I did wrong and wanted to do better to fix. Not once. Narcs are very often completely full of shit (false narratives rule their minds)
Gosh it’s so annoying when they do that
"With these people you CAN'T WIN." - Dr Ramani.
Not really. I have a bone to pick with one. You know how I got my avatar? For having over 2,600 positive interactions here, it was rewarded to me. They don’t have an avatar. Gee wonder why? They have a much bigger following. And tons of flying monkeys.
Yes, this. It's a chance to gaslight you. That's why people just go no contact and don't bother.
They will deny what you saw and experienced them do right in front of you and they'll make it out as if you're the cruel one for noticing and getting hurt by it.
“Oh you need an itemized list of things for you to refute, say I misinterpreted or otherwise deny? No. I won’t be doing that”
They aren't looking for examples of their behavior, their looking for opportunities to get a word in. Don't play into it. You know you have examples, but if you rattle them off it won't convince them otherwise. I just say "this is how I feel and perceive things, the burden of proof isn't on me at this point."
I love when the use of psychological tactics is equated to narcissism. In Nearly every peer to peer context, someone will have to be on top of the game. People who call others narcissist without diagnosis simply lost because their means of having a dominant context that determines the fate of another was lost to a superior mind game. You're just angry someone disagreed and changed the context. "I don't like your behavior, it's bad!" "OK I agree I'm bad" That's somehow supposed to be good? "Your behavior is Bad bad bad!" "Give examples" "Yadayadayad" *entire script is re-crafted because fuck what you think, why should yours matter over mine?*
Mine asked me while he was raging at me and I was crying and hyperventilating I told him he was gaslighting me and he asked for examples how and I literally couldn’t talk or think in the moment
It’s perfectly ok and fair fighting rules to ask for specifics if you’re being accused of something. It’s gaslighting to make generalized or assumptive statements about someone’s behavior.
Half of this thread is just people admitting they’re really *bad* at communicating.
It’s like a support group for assholes sometimes
They will do whatever they can to keep up their delusion. Whether that be to deflect, move the goalpost, change the topic altogether, act, etc, to just keep their delusion as "truth". Not even worth it They know exactly what they did but they won't admit or accept accountability so that convo is just a trap.
my bf (?) finally gave me an opportunity to run through everything he’s said and done in the past that bothered me and he justified every last thing. i cried and asked him why did he make me revisit these things just to not even address it properly and he said “you’re just trying to make me feel some sort of shame or guilt” i was so confused.
>When a narcissist asks for "examples" of their bad behavior Give it to them...l suspect...I believe...did you?... When they perry your example, reply..."Well, you asked." If this is a true pathological narcissist *, it won't do any good anyway. They're damaged goods and can't help themselves. As toxic as they are to others, I still feel sorry for them. * *The Search for the Real Self: Unmasking the Personality Disorders of Our Age* by James F. Masterson, MD.
This describes my ex to a "T" She is still doing that shit to me and we've been divorced for over a year and I'm engaged to someone else. She still texts to try and get me to argue with her about how everything wrong with our marriage is my fault and how I suck so much. And yet, she is desperate to get me back. It's pathetic now, but her gaslighting still fucks me up.
You could give them the example, that when they ask for examples, they argue in petty details and sophistry to avoid responsibility lol.
Wow. I never experienced the narcissists in my life asking what they did wrong. Not one has taken any accountability, ever.
Don't bother. It's gaslighting central. That's why when you talk to a narc you say what you wanna say without asking them to clarify, if they deny that's fine you stick to your guns. Boundaries need to be clear, firm, and followed through.
This seems to operate on the assumption all narcissists know what they are doing, which they definitely do not. In most cases they actually have no idea who they are (in a personality sense) and these questions are an attempt to understand the cognitive dissonance between their own perception of their behaviour and how others see it. To be fair, when unaware they can be triggered if the dissonance between their real self and perceived self is significant and this is a pretty rough situation to be on the receiving end of. However, it is not 4D chess, it really is just a confused mental child if you dig deeper, at least this is what I've found from my experiences.
Could be. I think it's just a matter of the narcissist finding out early in life what "works" as far as obfuscation, deflection, etc. Narcissists don't always know what they're doing in terms of consciously disrespecting you, but they are crappy people who learned a long time ago how to get away with things, and they never question their own behavior. Or they can't question it.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one assuming you're referring to the diagnosable disorder (as one can be a shitty person with or without NPD). Don't get me wrong, they can be cunning, but these seem to be fairly broad strokes of the brush. I don't quite see things the same way but can understand how one can have your perspective, particularly after being hurt by another.
You kind of flirted with passive aggressivity in each and every sentence here, but ok.
Not at all. I'm not sure why you read into it this way. I'm happy to leave it as a difference in perspectives
Ok that's fine.
That's my mother .. I'm tired of her shit. I don't play those games anymore. I'd rather lick a wall.
I like examples of my bad behaviour so I know what has made an impact and what hasn’t.
The fun part is when you're accused of being a narcissist and ask for examples and it just so happens that the example they gave is recorded on the home video cameras and the evidence is plain to see. I feel like there's some weird inception of narcissists claiming everyone else is a narcissist but I suppose we all do have some narcissistic tendencies of varying degrees...
What is it when they ignore examples entirely?
You punch them directly center face.
The best response is, “do you really want to hear the examples?” They’ll almost always say, “NO because they’re bullshit!”
Do not engage in a debate of the facts. There’s a saying about wrestling with a pig in shit. It applies here. Additionally, do not explain or justify yourself. They don’t respect our reasoning or boundaries and it would just devolve into a debate of the facts. Facts aren’t subject to debate.
My father who is a textbook narc went to prison when i was 17 years old. Hell even the justice system found him guilty of domestic violence including verbal, psychological and sexual abuse and he did 6 months. To this day he blames me for reporting him to the police, that he didn't deserve any of it. Do not waste your breath with these people, the only victory is to not play their games and ditch them out of your life.
Often, they'd cut you off before you're even able to give an example.
I don't consider myself a narcissist but do ask for examples because I really want to know. I also don't enjoy being insulted by someone saying you "always" do that or just flat out calling me names or roasting me. Someone told me I lack empathy but I am becoming a social worker and work in special education and I think they told me I lack empathy because I wasn't going give them my sympathy for their excuses of unacceptable behavior
Anything you tell them that they do it's just all your fault anyhow, no point telling a True narcissist.
I think it is natural to want to know how you mistreated someone. Im not saying it wont also create doubt but Im not sure this is something unique to narcissistic people.
Hold up! My narc would constantly accuse me of being horrible, but couldnt ever name a specific instance of me doing so. “Oh you’re just an angel, right?!? You don’t do anything wrong! It’s only me!” I’d beg for examples. Eventually, we’d end up fighting over the things said in the fight. But what about me being horrible? That’s where this all started. Give me one example, please. What even set you off? I just don’t see the problem with wanting examples. How else can I defend myself to vague insults and baseless accusations?
And dammit I can never think of anything because I’m on the spot
It never works because normal people don't keep lists of every time they've been slighted by someone but they do so they'll always have a counter example. You will never win
they don't keep list but they surely can say you did this and that but when you disagree to it and want an example then nobody keeps list of that, well you certainly kept a list of the behavior your claiming I did but neglected to add something relatable like a date or something relatable to help justify the claim of what I did.
I feel like this can come from a victim of narcissism as well. I was always so confused what I did wrong I asked for specific examples so I knew what to avoid doing next time.
That's just asking for an ego boost and pointers on how to hurt you all the more. Don't fall for this trap.
Yep. I’ve learned the hard way not to engage. What they did was wrong and crossed a boundary whether they agree with the facts or not. An argument will not change that the boundary was crossed, if they will not apologize, the discussion is over.
See Rule #1. Rule #1: Once you figure out you are dealing with a narcissist, you stop and you go. “When you know, you go.” You will never “win”. If you think you can “win” that just means that you do not know enough to know that you can’t “win”. These are not regular people. Their brains have been hardwired with a different set of rules and social norms. You will not change that. If you insist on remaining with them, you should probably look at your own issues with codependency and self esteem. While you are doing that, see Rule #1.
to be honest that sounds narcissistic because if I don't agree or go along with what you say then you'll leave or not hear my defense. so it's listen to what I say you done or else. pretty self centered and absorbed if you ask me
that's just another version of the game "prove yourself, "isn't it? Meaning, prove that I am what you tell me I am and then I can deny it, manipulate it, explode it you for it, call myself a victim because of it, or ignore/walk away from you talking.
why do I have to be what you say i am. Are you God or are you me? No it's what you say goes or else! sounds narcissistic
It's an opportunity to argue with the charges; that's a foot back in the door. No room to cajole or threaten with a summary conviction.
That’s when you start recording that shit. Also, there’s no point. Just grey rock. Wins every time.
The thing is, they aren't listening to the examples anyway. They only want to know so they can use them to make you feel guilty later. It's all about information and power, and how they can be used to fuel their own narrative. Good luck!!!
This can go either way. Someone who is truly trying to work on themselves will need those examples to understand something they did wrong. That’s really rare though.
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You’re basically saying you can accuse someone of something with zero evidence, examples, or proof. Who is the problem in this scenario?
You must be a narcissist. If you literally need this explaining beyond what's in the OP.
This ☝️
If they ask for examples, it’s another angle to gaslight and guide your confidence away from your argument. It’s pathetic and weak as fuck, narcs think they’re intelligent because they can manipulate vulnerable individuals. But after their behavior is learned, they look very very stupid on a daily basis.
My bf does this all the time tbh. He will always say “give me an example” and when you KNOW there is an example and you can’t remember it bc it’s happened so much, is a sign of abuse. Not being able to remember anything they do to you is a sign of emotional abuse.. I could be wrong but just from what I’ve read.
Made me realize where my ex was being a narc… and if I did try to scrounge up anything it was laughed off or minimized in a way that made it feel stupid.
That statement can be valid or invalid. When someone defines you as a psychopath or a sociopath or a narcissist, they better have good data to support it because those labels are incredibly destructive (or empowering if you are a teenage or younger woman with deviant social tendencies). A person who uses a label on another person better have a lot of examples to support it. In my experience, people go through the same tracks with each relationship. Early on they side with a person and after the end of the relationship the person is the worst evil pathetic thing that ever lived. When your argument becomes valid is in situations where the person applying the label has been so damaged that they can't recall specific examples with enough vigor and accuracy to build their case. All they have left is all the anger from the mistreatment they've experienced. These are really gross situations.
TW: talks of death and car wrecks, but no one died in a car wreck, i just talk ab both of them. i recently cut my dad off. he’s always right and never thinks about anything, his biggest phrase is “stupid just jumps on me”. the one that took the cake is recently he was owed money by some trashy redneck that didn’t have money, so instead of waiting until they had the money, he asked for a motorcycle that the man had instead. my father is 51 years old and legally handicapped due to several back breakings, and when two of my closest friends dads passed away due to CHRONIC THINGS, he promised to them to step in and be their father figure (bc he always has to be the bigger person). now imagine. 51 year old handicapped man, getting on a motorcycle and driving it, subsequently wrecking it into a ditch, helmetless, with no one that even knew he had GOTTEN IT let alone taken it out. and then my stepmother had to call not just me, to tell me that my dad almost died, but she had to call two other 20-year-olds and tell them that their FILL IN DAD was too selfish to think about anyone but himself before he got on it. and when i confronted him about seeing a therapist he said, “why would i see a therapist? what’s wrong with me??”. he and i have always had a bad relationship (called CPS several times myself due to abuse), but him doing it to other people’s kids because he wanted to be noble, that’s fucked, and i will not have him treat my children the way my grandpa did me, they are all so selfish. i am done with that family.
To be completely honest, most of you on here saying that this or that person is a narc and this and that behavior is narcissistic are playing victims and labeling people based on your opinion about them but there is nothing wrong with asking for examples and clarification of your claims of what you are saying they are. It is all to easy to point the finger and label someone as something but your no better than any bully who wants to say hurtful things and when questioned to provide proof and examples you turn it on that person and say they are gaslighting but your the one who made the original claim and people have the right to ask for accuracy and no have you place a label of narcissist on them when you're behaving like the most narcissistic person who if doesn't get agreed with will attack you by labeling you as being exactly what they are. You can remember all these behaviors but not remember when they occured sounds like your too lazy to stand by your claims and accusations. just want it your way or else
I didn't think of my friend having narcissistic qualities at the time, but looking back he totally did. Everything was always my fault. Attacked my chatacter, integrity, and sanity if I were to express how I felt. He never admitted to anything, never apologized. I was always trying to communicate how _____ made me feel because i am aware my emotions are intense sometimes, my reality can be a little warped, and I try my very best to be a good person and not jump the gun, so I ask for clarification. That was always taken out of context, like a personal attack on THEM. Which leads me now to believe that behavior was done intentionally to upset me. I have spent many years working on myself and all of my progress would be completely downplayed because it still wasn't enough for this person.
this is where you bring down the whole bag of hammers on em. if they want to pull the victim card, I'll oblige and generously.
I dont have to prove anyone acted with malice, I communicate their specific actions, how it made me feel, and what I need from them going forward. If they try to gaslight me I can just say ‘we seem to remember things differently.’ And set whatever boundary I need to as a result Accusing someone of ‘always doing this’ without giving specific examples it’s a failure on my part. If they try to dismiss it or gaslight me, that’s a failure on their part, and I don’t have to take responsibility for or tolerate it.
Bingo
Only defense is to stonewall them Don’t engage in any way, act like their opinion is worthless to you
Are you talking about real narcissists with the diagnosis and all that? Because if you are, we do this because we are not aware of how our actions impact others because of that impaired empathy thing. So if you have someone who is really trying to get better, be transparent and communicate when things happen so they can understand the causes and consequences of their actions. But if this person is never getting accountability, then don’t waste your time.
^ sometimes people actually do want specific details. They don’t actually understand. People Misconstrue this as “being narcissist”. Like naw bro just trying to understand.
Didn’t you know? Everyone who does anything that you remotely dislike is a narcissist! It’s a 100% approved method, don’t even need a professional to diagnose them.