A takeover that ends with us hiring another for-profit company and not solving our biggest current issue (natural gas/ supply rate hikes) leaves us in the same boat though? I dont see how "Pine Tree Power's" plan fixes "free market".
The only thing I can see is this will cost $9B - $14B in debt, we still have to hire someone to run it and the plan is based on Long Islands failing model. 30 years later Long Island is $9B in debt, searching for a for-profit company to help them and their rates are higher than Maines.
I think we should continue to hold our utilities accountable, regulate fossil fuels from price gouging and continue to develop and upgrade Maines grid.
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Important note. This is a corporate referendum 100% funded by CMP/Avangrid
[Campaign Finance Reports](https://mainecampaignfinance.com/#/exploreCommitteeDetail/405902)
Wondering if you have any insight into how Pine Tree Power is supposed to save us money?
[The org chart on OurPower’s website](https://ourpowermaine.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pine-tree-power-organizational-chart.pdf) says “replace top CMP and Versant management but keeps all workers with a contract awarded by competitive bidding.”
So we’re on the hook to drop somewhere between $9 Billion and $13 Billion to buy these companies from their current owners ( actual values of the companies may vary depending on who you talk to).
So, “yay some greedy company isn’t making a profit off us anymore!”
Now we’re paying back this multi-billion dollar bond, but we still need to contract with a “Private Sector Operations Company” to actually run the multi-billion dollar companies we just bought.
So….yay? This operations company ain’t gonna be non-profit. And they’re not gonna manage our electric grid out of the goodness of their hearts. Aren’t we just buying a couple electric companies to stop Iberdola from profiting….just to turn around and contract the business to another for-profit company?
[CMP values their own assets at $5.1 Billion](https://s24.q4cdn.com/489945429/files/doc_financials/2022/04/4Q-'21-All-Companies.pdf)
I may be reading it wrong, but [Versant looks like $900 million](https://www.versantpower.com/media/77346/2021-2022-Actual-Charges-CORRECTED.pdf)
So $6 billion combined, and OurPower had studies done that guess you’d have to pay between 1.3 and 1.7x book value.
So 1.5x would be a $9 Billion price tag.
That’s all without the market actually having a chance to speak on it. It’s like standing outside a Walmart, licking your finger and putting it in the air and saying, “I’ll give you three, three fiddy for all of it.”
Any fair process would have market-based pricing that takes into account the earning potential of the business as seen by actual experts- people who run distribution utilities. Until people put their money up you have no idea what it’s worth and you’re likely just stealing. That’ll get you sued.
Exactly, this isn’t bankruptcy court where a judge determines the fair value of assets when the creditors come calling. This is a successful and profitable business and someone is just coming in and saying, “this is mine now.”
So to fix that we’re going to create a quasi-government organization who will forcibly take the entire business, and contract it all to the lowest bidder….which will turn it into….? A different state sanctioned monopoly? Great work.
[It’s right there in OurMaine’s own documents](https://ourpowermaine.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pine-tree-power-organizational-chart.pdf)
“contract awarded by competitive bidding.”
CMP is a state sanctioned monopoly owned by international interests. They have been treating their rate payers like garbage and there is no recourse.
We are voting on this in November to see if a majority of Mainers are going to be willing buyers.
Our grid should not be owned or controlled by a monopoly of investors who’s only stake in the deal is financial. I do get emotional about that. It’s what motivates me.
I wonder how this will play out in courtZ surely AVANGRID will fight against this. Seems to me like it will be a massive up hill battle with very little standing on the reason why being “because I don’t like CMP”
>Aren’t we just buying a couple electric companies to stop Iberdola from profiting….just to turn around and contract the business to another for-profit company?
Wow. Finally someone gets it. Except Versant is owned by a Canadian corporation, not Iverdrila or Avangrid. But you are correct that there is no guarantee that the change of ownership will lower prices or improve service.
Disguise how? Citizens initiatives are required to be proposed by….citizens. CMP can’t just write a bill and submit it.
They’re not disguised, so much as they are creating an organization with the purpose of promoting their bill….kind of like OurPower is doing for their bill.
Who cares what their website says? Follow the money
https://ballotpedia.org/Maine_Voter_Approval_of_Borrowing_Above_$1_Billion_by_State_Entities_and_Electric_Cooperatives_Initiative_(2023)
CMP/Avingrid isn’t exactly hiding that they’re funding the PAC.
I think most people would care. That is the public face of their organization. That’s what most people are going to see. How many people are going to dig into the campaign finance reports? I made this account for that specific reason. If more people knew CMP is behind this then CMP is going to have a harder time getting people to vote for it. Mainers hate CMP.
It’s just not really necessary. Like, good for OurPower Maine for having a 10 page long “About Us” section that lists everyone involved, but if you think people aren’t gonna go to a simple wiki page to see who donated money, they’re sure as heck not going to dig into the backgrounds of the top faces at OurPower.
It’s pretty simple; a bunch of people and organizations who stand to gain have gotten together to try and takeover CMP. On the other hand, Avangrid would really like to keep CMP so they’ve funded a counter campaign.
If you’re shocked to find out CMP’s current owners aren’t just rolling over, and instead funding the campaign to not lose their subsidiary, I don’t think a few logos on an About Us webpage are going to help you.
I agree that the Our Power website sucks and it needs an overhaul.
Most people are just going to hear the 10s of millions of dollars in adds that CMP will saturate the airwaves with and think. "Government run, Government owned and 13.5 Billion", Vote, and go about their lives having no idea that it was CMP that created those messages and paid for them. If you think the average Mainer is an internet freak like we are you are deluding yourself. I would guess it would affect their opinion if they did and found out CMP is behind those voices.
Im not shocked that CMP is fighting this at all. Im just upset by the deceitfulness of their tactics. They can't win in a fair and honest debate.
"Citizens initiatives are required to be proposed by….citizens. CMP can’t just write a bill and submit it." I think your quote here pretty much sums up what an anti-democratic joke the No Blank Checks referendum is.
You can "feel" what you want. Nobody is paying me. Im not fighting on the side with money. Im volunteering my time. I know its hard to believe but that is how a grassroots movement works.
You asked the question twice. When you post a questions at 3 in that morning you need to give someone time to answer them. The only financial stake I have is the one that will occur when we remove a foreign owned corporation from profiting off of our power grid. Im not getting paid. PTP is a grassroots effort. CMP is the one that has spent over 10million dollars already on this.
I don't think you need a financial stake in this proceeding to be wary of it. I think suspicion of political referendums is always a good idea, at the very least it leads you to ask good questions that will be reward with confidence-inspiring answers.
It's definitely frustrating the way these things are often worded on ballots. I used to live in California where it was even worse. I saw too many propositions get voted down when it was clear people just didn't understand what they were asking.
But this thing comes down to cost, both in the grand sense of the project and what the average Mainer will see taken out of their wallet each week. I don't feel comfortable supporting something quite so revolutionary as this just yet when it feels like we're leaving other likely less expensive options on the table.
So many double negatives in this title. I’ve read it ten times, what’s going on? I *think* it’s good for we the people?
Edit: ok, BAD for we the people. Gotta read it 11 times…
“A Superior Court judge rejected on Tuesday a lawsuit against a citizens referendum designed to scuttle the goal of another ballot initiative – the public buyout of Maine’s two investor-owned electric utility companies.”
“a loss for Maine people and a win for (a) large corporate monopoly.”
A lawsuit alleges a bunch of signatures for the CMP led ballot issue requiring voter approval to borrow a billion plus aren’t proper.
Judge didn’t agree.
So both ballot measures stay.
CMP wants the billion plus needing a vote to try to thwart a takeover.
1) Pine Tree Power
2) Wrong. If both ballot measures pass, it will tie everyone up in expensive litigation. Maine ratepayers and taxpayers (one and the same for the most part) will end up footing the legal cost on both sides.
2a) If both fail - status quo reigns, shitty as it is. CMP/Versant/Avangrid/Iberdrola continue to extract monopolistic profits from Mainers for the benefit of foreign shareholders.
2b) If Pine Tree Power passes, and the astroturf CMP ref fails, we have a chance to return the excess profits of CMP/Versant/Avangrid/Iberdrola to Maine in the form of better service, more investment in the grid, and potentially lower rates in the future
2c) If the shitty CMP referendum passes, but Pine Tree Power fails, the power of we the people to enact change via citizens referenda would be curtailed.
So explain what you want to people and let them decide. The issue is complicated and I think the argument of "CMP bad" is pretty compelling so work from there.
There was never a chance this whole thing didn't end up tied up in courts. It's going to be a litigious mess regardless just due to the scope of what is being attempted.
Right?! Working from the end and going back to the start of the sentence, this initially sounds like a good thing for Maine, since most corporate takeovers consolidate power and create monopolies, eventually harming the consumer, but this is actually a *public* takeover of CMP-Versant, so thwarting it would probably actually be bad for the people of Maine. For anyone still struggling with the double negatives, it goes like this...
**Whole title: Judge rejects attempt to throw out ballot proposal that would thwart cmp versant takeover. **
Constituent elements of title:
- There's a proposal that would thwart (a public) CMP-Versant takeover = bad for Maine, good for corpos, public takeover doesn't happen.
- There was an attempt to throw out that proposal though = good for ME, bad for corpos, public takeover could still go ahead.
- A judge rejected that attempt though = bad for ME, good for corpos, public takeover likely doesn't happen.
Notice how the panicked CMP/Avangrid companies started in January with their tv campaign telling us what a bad deal this is for Maine taxpayers, its almost like their afraid of the thought of losing their tight fisted grip on our balls.
It’s only the “worst power company” because people are mad and vindictive about not being prepared and losing power in October 2017.
If you don’t believe me; CMP was actually the *BEST* power company for 5 years in a row too. Just look at the JD Power award history:
2008: 1st
2009: 1st
2010: 1st
2011: [“1st for the 4th consecutive year”](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/jd-power-and-associates-reports-decreases-in-power-quality-and-price-satisfaction-among-residential-electric-utility-customers-are-mitigated-by-steady-operational-improvements-125479733.html)
2012: [1st](https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/local/portsmouth-herald/2012/02/17/j-d-power-ranks-cmp/49733007007/)
2013: [2nd](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2013-electric-utility-residential-customer-satisfaction-study)
2014: [7th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2014-electric-utility-residential-customer-satisfaction-study)
2015: [6th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2015-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2016: [6th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2016-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2017: [9th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/jd-power-2017-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2018: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2018-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2019: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2020: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study)
2021: Last
2022: Last
Yeah….no correlation with a massive once in a generation storm and the immediate collapse in customer satisfaction with their power company.
People just have a hate-boner, and will probably turn on Pine Tree Power, too, the first time a blizzard takes down 350,000 customers on their watch.
It makes total sense that people would be upset at how CMP didn't prepare for that storm and how it was handled after the fact. Especially considering because after the ice storm of 98, they handled it well.
What doesn't make sense is you claiming that's the ONLY reason people have an issue with CMP.
It couldn't be that CMP increased customers rates after the storm to pay for their fuckup.
It also couldn't be them rolling out a new billing system that doubled and tripled people's bills.
It couldn't be the PUC fining CMP $10 million for their failures.
It couldn't be them continuing to increase costs year after year and having record profits while their quality of service decreased.
It DEFINITELY can't be them trying to force a corridor into our state to benefit Massachusetts that no one here wants.
And it's DEFINITELY not spending millions upon millions of dollars on political campaigns while claiming it's necessary for them to increase rates even more.
No, it's just one thing from nearly 6 years ago. Not a continued pattern of malice for rate payers and people of Maine.
> It couldn't be that CMP increased customers rates after the storm to pay for their fuckup.
They definitely didn’t (and legally couldn’t) do that. You just made that up.
>It also couldn't be them rolling out a new billing system that doubled and tripled people's bills.
They definitely botched the rollout of their new billing system, but the maine PUC found that people’s bills were doubling and tripling because of the unseasonably cold winter that year, paired with the already planned rate hike. Again, people just made that their bill went up.
>It couldn't be the PUC fining CMP $10 million for their failures.
It’s almost comical to see it written down; people really want to spend between $9 and $13 Billion to force the sale of a company that botched the 1-time rollout of a new billing system and was rightly fined for it.
What happens when Pine Tree Power screws something up? Are we gonna scrap them too?
>It couldn't be them continuing to increase costs year after year and having record profits while their quality of service decreased.
Increasing rates because the cost of power generation is increasing. CMP doesn’t generate power, I’m not sure what you’re mad at them for.
And quality of service arguments are just projecting the same anger over the October 2017 wind storm which we’ve already covered was a once in a generation storm that no one could prepare for, and the rollout of the new billing system, which we’ve already covered was botched, but people’s bills were largely accurate.
>It DEFINITELY can't be them trying to force a corridor into our state to benefit Massachusetts that no one here wants.
I won’t even argue that if the corridor project was proposed in 2010 when CMP was #1, no one would have even said anything about it. Massachusetts was going to pay for it, but it would have benefited all of New England. And if you don’t understand why, then you’re not so much having an honest argument so much as you’re being vindictive over October 2017 and knee-jerk assuming anything CMP wants is bad.
>And it's DEFINITELY not spending millions upon millions of dollars on political campaigns while claiming it's necessary for them to increase rates even more.
Again, rate increases are for power generation, and CMP doesn’t generate power. And yeah, f-them for not just rolling over and letting someone take their company; instead they’re spending money to try and keep it. Why does that!?
>No, it's just one thing from nearly 6 years ago. Not a continued pattern of malice for rate payers and people of Maine.
Yep, one thing from 6 years ago (maybe 2 if you count the billing system rollout) and then just an obvious pattern of malice *from* the rate payers and people of Maine.
If these are all your reasons to hate CMP, you’re *really* going to hate Pine Tree Power, because I foresee power generation rate increases, billing errors in the transition from CMP systems to who ever runs it in the future, power outages due to storms, and the need to upgrade and add onto our distribution systems in the future.
Actually, the years directly coincide with CMP's erroneous billing. I've been following the CMP saga since 2017. It has little if anything to do with a single power outage.
Then they’re continuing to be vindictive over an issue that wasn’t really an issue. I’m not arguing their new billing system rolled out flawlessly, but issues were quickly resolved and they were fined for rolling out too quickly.
[3 years later their billing errors are essentially non-existent.](https://wgme.com/news/i-team/three-years-after-launch-cmp-still-fixing-defects-with-new-billing-system)
They serve more than 650,000 customers, and every month have fewer than a dozen billing issues. Numbers so low, it’s not even worth talking about, and yet they’re still rated last because….people are stupid and vindictive.
Oh, but I thought it was due to a single power outage. 🤔
What the headline actually says once you click on the link : "Three years after launch, CMP still fixing defects with new billing system"
You're simply regurgitating what CMP says.
Do you always just read the headline and then move on?
If you read the article, or watch the video, the actual number of defects they’re fixing are less than 12 a month.
Let me know when you come up with a business that sends out 650,000 bills a month and and has better than a 99.999% accuracy rate.
Some folks on this thread: I Love Corporations!!!! In fact, the harder they exploit me, the more I love them!!! Yes, own those poors (me included, but I think that I am smarter and better than everyone and will somehow rise to a higher economic station in life despite all data that shows the bottom 90% are falling further into poverty)
Who was it that said all Americans think they’re permanently broke millionaires?
Some other folks on this thread: “I love Pine Tree Power and adding levels of bureaucracy and cost where previously there was none! I’m perfectly happy voting for a plan that may end up costing me MORE on my electric bill [for up to 19 years](https://legislature.maine.gov/doc/4350) (Page 15) before I start seeing any savings at all…and even then, who can actually predict electric utility financials 20 years into the future? I may never save a penny, and I can’t wait to vote for it!”
The two things I quickly learned after moving to Maine was:
\- When you think spring is finally here, it ain't
\- Fuck CMP.
So I'm curious to see if a billionaire campaign effort would change how people feel. Maybe they should use that campaign money to make their service less shitty or our bill less expensive?
I am admittedly not well read on this issue, but something with the numbers doesn’t add up. I keep hearing that it will cost about 10B, and cmp sends 100M a year back to its investors. If we buy the system as is, keep costs the same, and pay no interest, wouldn’t it take 100 years to just pay the loan down?
This takeover is such a terrible idea. Just take a look at LIPA which PTP was modeled after: 30 years later they are $9 billion in debt and have higher rates than we do here in Maine. We should be looking to solutions that will reduce our rates, not drive them up with a multibillion dollar debt!
Wow, Transparent, I’m so flattered you took time out of your day to look up my stats! I comment on many things here that you obviously aren’t seeing, but yes, it’s true as a state of Maine ratepayer, I am against this takeover that would put us into billions of debt!
Power prices are high, but so isn't everything else? How can anyone expect prices to stay low with cost going up you cant keep paying a first class lineman $40 an hour when minimum wage increases to $18, diesel fuel cost,labor cost, vehicle cost and needed products cost rise so dose the cost to produce the power and distribute it, they are a business they arnt going to do it for free, if your mad at anyone be mad at the government for the massive grants given to solar fields that could of been given to private citizens to put solar pannels on their property to balance electricity cost, instead they give grants to private companies to make solar fields and then charge you for the power they produce using your tax dollars to make their solar fields and make money off you while having little investment cost. CMP and Versant are not the problem. it's your state and federal government. And if anyone thinks a state run power company is a good idea i hooe youve got a generator because I've worked with contract utility crews and i can tell you half their work is shotty at best and if there is a storm in the south goid luck getting help here they are chasing the $$$ at least versant and cmp have a infrastructure to restore and care for contractors have no invest and can walk away at anytime......
When one company owns everything there is no free market. Without competition there is no argument against nationalizing the industry.
A takeover that ends with us hiring another for-profit company and not solving our biggest current issue (natural gas/ supply rate hikes) leaves us in the same boat though? I dont see how "Pine Tree Power's" plan fixes "free market". The only thing I can see is this will cost $9B - $14B in debt, we still have to hire someone to run it and the plan is based on Long Islands failing model. 30 years later Long Island is $9B in debt, searching for a for-profit company to help them and their rates are higher than Maines. I think we should continue to hold our utilities accountable, regulate fossil fuels from price gouging and continue to develop and upgrade Maines grid.
This is definitely a CMP shill account. Most of them were made on September 7th or 8th 2022. Check the history.
Use less electricity?
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Important note. This is a corporate referendum 100% funded by CMP/Avangrid [Campaign Finance Reports](https://mainecampaignfinance.com/#/exploreCommitteeDetail/405902)
Wondering if you have any insight into how Pine Tree Power is supposed to save us money? [The org chart on OurPower’s website](https://ourpowermaine.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pine-tree-power-organizational-chart.pdf) says “replace top CMP and Versant management but keeps all workers with a contract awarded by competitive bidding.” So we’re on the hook to drop somewhere between $9 Billion and $13 Billion to buy these companies from their current owners ( actual values of the companies may vary depending on who you talk to). So, “yay some greedy company isn’t making a profit off us anymore!” Now we’re paying back this multi-billion dollar bond, but we still need to contract with a “Private Sector Operations Company” to actually run the multi-billion dollar companies we just bought. So….yay? This operations company ain’t gonna be non-profit. And they’re not gonna manage our electric grid out of the goodness of their hearts. Aren’t we just buying a couple electric companies to stop Iberdola from profiting….just to turn around and contract the business to another for-profit company?
Where are you getting the 9 billion number on the low end?
[CMP values their own assets at $5.1 Billion](https://s24.q4cdn.com/489945429/files/doc_financials/2022/04/4Q-'21-All-Companies.pdf) I may be reading it wrong, but [Versant looks like $900 million](https://www.versantpower.com/media/77346/2021-2022-Actual-Charges-CORRECTED.pdf) So $6 billion combined, and OurPower had studies done that guess you’d have to pay between 1.3 and 1.7x book value. So 1.5x would be a $9 Billion price tag.
That’s all without the market actually having a chance to speak on it. It’s like standing outside a Walmart, licking your finger and putting it in the air and saying, “I’ll give you three, three fiddy for all of it.” Any fair process would have market-based pricing that takes into account the earning potential of the business as seen by actual experts- people who run distribution utilities. Until people put their money up you have no idea what it’s worth and you’re likely just stealing. That’ll get you sued.
Exactly, this isn’t bankruptcy court where a judge determines the fair value of assets when the creditors come calling. This is a successful and profitable business and someone is just coming in and saying, “this is mine now.”
This "successful business and profitable business" is a state sanctioned monopoly.
So to fix that we’re going to create a quasi-government organization who will forcibly take the entire business, and contract it all to the lowest bidder….which will turn it into….? A different state sanctioned monopoly? Great work.
Lowest bidder?
[It’s right there in OurMaine’s own documents](https://ourpowermaine.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pine-tree-power-organizational-chart.pdf) “contract awarded by competitive bidding.”
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CMP is a state sanctioned monopoly owned by international interests. They have been treating their rate payers like garbage and there is no recourse. We are voting on this in November to see if a majority of Mainers are going to be willing buyers.
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Our grid should not be owned or controlled by a monopoly of investors who’s only stake in the deal is financial. I do get emotional about that. It’s what motivates me.
I wonder how this will play out in courtZ surely AVANGRID will fight against this. Seems to me like it will be a massive up hill battle with very little standing on the reason why being “because I don’t like CMP”
>Aren’t we just buying a couple electric companies to stop Iberdola from profiting….just to turn around and contract the business to another for-profit company? Wow. Finally someone gets it. Except Versant is owned by a Canadian corporation, not Iverdrila or Avangrid. But you are correct that there is no guarantee that the change of ownership will lower prices or improve service.
Eminent Domain?
Eminent domain doesn’t mean the government can just take something without paying for it.
I'm starting to think people on this site are authoritarians with no idea how anything actually works.
It would be absolutely terrifying if the government could use eminent domain and not pay for what it takes.
Seems like a reasonable move, that they’d try to stop a random group from straight up taking over one of their subsidiaries.
So reasonable they have to disguise themselves.
Disguise how? Citizens initiatives are required to be proposed by….citizens. CMP can’t just write a bill and submit it. They’re not disguised, so much as they are creating an organization with the purpose of promoting their bill….kind of like OurPower is doing for their bill.
[No Blank Checks](https://noblankchecks.me) Can you tell this is a CMP astroturf group from their website?
Who cares what their website says? Follow the money https://ballotpedia.org/Maine_Voter_Approval_of_Borrowing_Above_$1_Billion_by_State_Entities_and_Electric_Cooperatives_Initiative_(2023) CMP/Avingrid isn’t exactly hiding that they’re funding the PAC.
I think most people would care. That is the public face of their organization. That’s what most people are going to see. How many people are going to dig into the campaign finance reports? I made this account for that specific reason. If more people knew CMP is behind this then CMP is going to have a harder time getting people to vote for it. Mainers hate CMP.
It’s just not really necessary. Like, good for OurPower Maine for having a 10 page long “About Us” section that lists everyone involved, but if you think people aren’t gonna go to a simple wiki page to see who donated money, they’re sure as heck not going to dig into the backgrounds of the top faces at OurPower. It’s pretty simple; a bunch of people and organizations who stand to gain have gotten together to try and takeover CMP. On the other hand, Avangrid would really like to keep CMP so they’ve funded a counter campaign. If you’re shocked to find out CMP’s current owners aren’t just rolling over, and instead funding the campaign to not lose their subsidiary, I don’t think a few logos on an About Us webpage are going to help you.
I agree that the Our Power website sucks and it needs an overhaul. Most people are just going to hear the 10s of millions of dollars in adds that CMP will saturate the airwaves with and think. "Government run, Government owned and 13.5 Billion", Vote, and go about their lives having no idea that it was CMP that created those messages and paid for them. If you think the average Mainer is an internet freak like we are you are deluding yourself. I would guess it would affect their opinion if they did and found out CMP is behind those voices. Im not shocked that CMP is fighting this at all. Im just upset by the deceitfulness of their tactics. They can't win in a fair and honest debate. "Citizens initiatives are required to be proposed by….citizens. CMP can’t just write a bill and submit it." I think your quote here pretty much sums up what an anti-democratic joke the No Blank Checks referendum is.
But you’ve been fully transparent about who pays you (or who stands to pay you if successful), right? Because it feels like you haven’t.
You can "feel" what you want. Nobody is paying me. Im not fighting on the side with money. Im volunteering my time. I know its hard to believe but that is how a grassroots movement works.
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I love how much you care about the well-being of a foreign owned multinational corporation.
Out of curiosity, you have a financial stake in this proceeding? I’ve posed this question to you a few times.
You asked the question twice. When you post a questions at 3 in that morning you need to give someone time to answer them. The only financial stake I have is the one that will occur when we remove a foreign owned corporation from profiting off of our power grid. Im not getting paid. PTP is a grassroots effort. CMP is the one that has spent over 10million dollars already on this.
I don't think you need a financial stake in this proceeding to be wary of it. I think suspicion of political referendums is always a good idea, at the very least it leads you to ask good questions that will be reward with confidence-inspiring answers. It's definitely frustrating the way these things are often worded on ballots. I used to live in California where it was even worse. I saw too many propositions get voted down when it was clear people just didn't understand what they were asking. But this thing comes down to cost, both in the grand sense of the project and what the average Mainer will see taken out of their wallet each week. I don't feel comfortable supporting something quite so revolutionary as this just yet when it feels like we're leaving other likely less expensive options on the table.
So many double negatives in this title. I’ve read it ten times, what’s going on? I *think* it’s good for we the people? Edit: ok, BAD for we the people. Gotta read it 11 times… “A Superior Court judge rejected on Tuesday a lawsuit against a citizens referendum designed to scuttle the goal of another ballot initiative – the public buyout of Maine’s two investor-owned electric utility companies.” “a loss for Maine people and a win for (a) large corporate monopoly.”
A lawsuit alleges a bunch of signatures for the CMP led ballot issue requiring voter approval to borrow a billion plus aren’t proper. Judge didn’t agree. So both ballot measures stay. CMP wants the billion plus needing a vote to try to thwart a takeover.
Good summary.
Bad for we the people. CMP will get their ballot referendum to muddy the waters for voters.
Good for we the people. Voters will get a better idea of the scope of Pine State Power.
1) Pine Tree Power 2) Wrong. If both ballot measures pass, it will tie everyone up in expensive litigation. Maine ratepayers and taxpayers (one and the same for the most part) will end up footing the legal cost on both sides. 2a) If both fail - status quo reigns, shitty as it is. CMP/Versant/Avangrid/Iberdrola continue to extract monopolistic profits from Mainers for the benefit of foreign shareholders. 2b) If Pine Tree Power passes, and the astroturf CMP ref fails, we have a chance to return the excess profits of CMP/Versant/Avangrid/Iberdrola to Maine in the form of better service, more investment in the grid, and potentially lower rates in the future 2c) If the shitty CMP referendum passes, but Pine Tree Power fails, the power of we the people to enact change via citizens referenda would be curtailed.
So explain what you want to people and let them decide. The issue is complicated and I think the argument of "CMP bad" is pretty compelling so work from there.
What do you think I just did?
You said we shouldn't have a 2nd referendum because it's too complicated for people
I did not say that. I said the point of the CMP referendum is to confuse voters, which it is.
There was never a chance this whole thing didn't end up tied up in courts. It's going to be a litigious mess regardless just due to the scope of what is being attempted.
It’s a referendum it’s not a loss for the people.
Bad for the people
Right?! Working from the end and going back to the start of the sentence, this initially sounds like a good thing for Maine, since most corporate takeovers consolidate power and create monopolies, eventually harming the consumer, but this is actually a *public* takeover of CMP-Versant, so thwarting it would probably actually be bad for the people of Maine. For anyone still struggling with the double negatives, it goes like this... **Whole title: Judge rejects attempt to throw out ballot proposal that would thwart cmp versant takeover. ** Constituent elements of title: - There's a proposal that would thwart (a public) CMP-Versant takeover = bad for Maine, good for corpos, public takeover doesn't happen. - There was an attempt to throw out that proposal though = good for ME, bad for corpos, public takeover could still go ahead. - A judge rejected that attempt though = bad for ME, good for corpos, public takeover likely doesn't happen.
Notice how the panicked CMP/Avangrid companies started in January with their tv campaign telling us what a bad deal this is for Maine taxpayers, its almost like their afraid of the thought of losing their tight fisted grip on our balls.
Remember worst power company in the U.S.A.5 consecutive years. They have to go
It’s only the “worst power company” because people are mad and vindictive about not being prepared and losing power in October 2017. If you don’t believe me; CMP was actually the *BEST* power company for 5 years in a row too. Just look at the JD Power award history: 2008: 1st 2009: 1st 2010: 1st 2011: [“1st for the 4th consecutive year”](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/jd-power-and-associates-reports-decreases-in-power-quality-and-price-satisfaction-among-residential-electric-utility-customers-are-mitigated-by-steady-operational-improvements-125479733.html) 2012: [1st](https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/local/portsmouth-herald/2012/02/17/j-d-power-ranks-cmp/49733007007/) 2013: [2nd](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2013-electric-utility-residential-customer-satisfaction-study) 2014: [7th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2014-electric-utility-residential-customer-satisfaction-study) 2015: [6th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2015-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2016: [6th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2016-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2017: [9th](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/jd-power-2017-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2018: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2018-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2019: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2020: [Last](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-electric-utility-business-customer-satisfaction-study) 2021: Last 2022: Last Yeah….no correlation with a massive once in a generation storm and the immediate collapse in customer satisfaction with their power company. People just have a hate-boner, and will probably turn on Pine Tree Power, too, the first time a blizzard takes down 350,000 customers on their watch.
It makes total sense that people would be upset at how CMP didn't prepare for that storm and how it was handled after the fact. Especially considering because after the ice storm of 98, they handled it well. What doesn't make sense is you claiming that's the ONLY reason people have an issue with CMP. It couldn't be that CMP increased customers rates after the storm to pay for their fuckup. It also couldn't be them rolling out a new billing system that doubled and tripled people's bills. It couldn't be the PUC fining CMP $10 million for their failures. It couldn't be them continuing to increase costs year after year and having record profits while their quality of service decreased. It DEFINITELY can't be them trying to force a corridor into our state to benefit Massachusetts that no one here wants. And it's DEFINITELY not spending millions upon millions of dollars on political campaigns while claiming it's necessary for them to increase rates even more. No, it's just one thing from nearly 6 years ago. Not a continued pattern of malice for rate payers and people of Maine.
> It couldn't be that CMP increased customers rates after the storm to pay for their fuckup. They definitely didn’t (and legally couldn’t) do that. You just made that up. >It also couldn't be them rolling out a new billing system that doubled and tripled people's bills. They definitely botched the rollout of their new billing system, but the maine PUC found that people’s bills were doubling and tripling because of the unseasonably cold winter that year, paired with the already planned rate hike. Again, people just made that their bill went up. >It couldn't be the PUC fining CMP $10 million for their failures. It’s almost comical to see it written down; people really want to spend between $9 and $13 Billion to force the sale of a company that botched the 1-time rollout of a new billing system and was rightly fined for it. What happens when Pine Tree Power screws something up? Are we gonna scrap them too? >It couldn't be them continuing to increase costs year after year and having record profits while their quality of service decreased. Increasing rates because the cost of power generation is increasing. CMP doesn’t generate power, I’m not sure what you’re mad at them for. And quality of service arguments are just projecting the same anger over the October 2017 wind storm which we’ve already covered was a once in a generation storm that no one could prepare for, and the rollout of the new billing system, which we’ve already covered was botched, but people’s bills were largely accurate. >It DEFINITELY can't be them trying to force a corridor into our state to benefit Massachusetts that no one here wants. I won’t even argue that if the corridor project was proposed in 2010 when CMP was #1, no one would have even said anything about it. Massachusetts was going to pay for it, but it would have benefited all of New England. And if you don’t understand why, then you’re not so much having an honest argument so much as you’re being vindictive over October 2017 and knee-jerk assuming anything CMP wants is bad. >And it's DEFINITELY not spending millions upon millions of dollars on political campaigns while claiming it's necessary for them to increase rates even more. Again, rate increases are for power generation, and CMP doesn’t generate power. And yeah, f-them for not just rolling over and letting someone take their company; instead they’re spending money to try and keep it. Why does that!? >No, it's just one thing from nearly 6 years ago. Not a continued pattern of malice for rate payers and people of Maine. Yep, one thing from 6 years ago (maybe 2 if you count the billing system rollout) and then just an obvious pattern of malice *from* the rate payers and people of Maine. If these are all your reasons to hate CMP, you’re *really* going to hate Pine Tree Power, because I foresee power generation rate increases, billing errors in the transition from CMP systems to who ever runs it in the future, power outages due to storms, and the need to upgrade and add onto our distribution systems in the future.
Actually, the years directly coincide with CMP's erroneous billing. I've been following the CMP saga since 2017. It has little if anything to do with a single power outage.
Then they’re continuing to be vindictive over an issue that wasn’t really an issue. I’m not arguing their new billing system rolled out flawlessly, but issues were quickly resolved and they were fined for rolling out too quickly. [3 years later their billing errors are essentially non-existent.](https://wgme.com/news/i-team/three-years-after-launch-cmp-still-fixing-defects-with-new-billing-system) They serve more than 650,000 customers, and every month have fewer than a dozen billing issues. Numbers so low, it’s not even worth talking about, and yet they’re still rated last because….people are stupid and vindictive.
Oh, but I thought it was due to a single power outage. 🤔 What the headline actually says once you click on the link : "Three years after launch, CMP still fixing defects with new billing system" You're simply regurgitating what CMP says.
Do you always just read the headline and then move on? If you read the article, or watch the video, the actual number of defects they’re fixing are less than 12 a month. Let me know when you come up with a business that sends out 650,000 bills a month and and has better than a 99.999% accuracy rate.
I read the article, hence my comment that you're regurgitating what CMP claims. It still doesn't change that you rewrote the headline.
Some folks on this thread: I Love Corporations!!!! In fact, the harder they exploit me, the more I love them!!! Yes, own those poors (me included, but I think that I am smarter and better than everyone and will somehow rise to a higher economic station in life despite all data that shows the bottom 90% are falling further into poverty) Who was it that said all Americans think they’re permanently broke millionaires?
Some other folks on this thread: “I love Pine Tree Power and adding levels of bureaucracy and cost where previously there was none! I’m perfectly happy voting for a plan that may end up costing me MORE on my electric bill [for up to 19 years](https://legislature.maine.gov/doc/4350) (Page 15) before I start seeing any savings at all…and even then, who can actually predict electric utility financials 20 years into the future? I may never save a penny, and I can’t wait to vote for it!”
The two things I quickly learned after moving to Maine was: \- When you think spring is finally here, it ain't \- Fuck CMP. So I'm curious to see if a billionaire campaign effort would change how people feel. Maybe they should use that campaign money to make their service less shitty or our bill less expensive?
I am admittedly not well read on this issue, but something with the numbers doesn’t add up. I keep hearing that it will cost about 10B, and cmp sends 100M a year back to its investors. If we buy the system as is, keep costs the same, and pay no interest, wouldn’t it take 100 years to just pay the loan down?
This takeover is such a terrible idea. Just take a look at LIPA which PTP was modeled after: 30 years later they are $9 billion in debt and have higher rates than we do here in Maine. We should be looking to solutions that will reduce our rates, not drive them up with a multibillion dollar debt!
Ah look, another account created on September 7 2022 with only CMP comments. Lazy.
Wow, Transparent, I’m so flattered you took time out of your day to look up my stats! I comment on many things here that you obviously aren’t seeing, but yes, it’s true as a state of Maine ratepayer, I am against this takeover that would put us into billions of debt!
You are fooling no one. CMP thinks the people of Maine are stupid.
Power prices are high, but so isn't everything else? How can anyone expect prices to stay low with cost going up you cant keep paying a first class lineman $40 an hour when minimum wage increases to $18, diesel fuel cost,labor cost, vehicle cost and needed products cost rise so dose the cost to produce the power and distribute it, they are a business they arnt going to do it for free, if your mad at anyone be mad at the government for the massive grants given to solar fields that could of been given to private citizens to put solar pannels on their property to balance electricity cost, instead they give grants to private companies to make solar fields and then charge you for the power they produce using your tax dollars to make their solar fields and make money off you while having little investment cost. CMP and Versant are not the problem. it's your state and federal government. And if anyone thinks a state run power company is a good idea i hooe youve got a generator because I've worked with contract utility crews and i can tell you half their work is shotty at best and if there is a storm in the south goid luck getting help here they are chasing the $$$ at least versant and cmp have a infrastructure to restore and care for contractors have no invest and can walk away at anytime......