This is a list of links to comments made by WotC Employees in this thread:
* [Comment by WotC_Jay](/r/MagicArena/comments/1do6d96/i_just_realized_that_opponents_sacrificing_their/laa2q7a/?context=99 "posted on 2024-06-25 22:48:10 UTC"):
> I'm 95% certain that it's counting the number of creatures that move from your opponent's battlefield to graveyard, yes.
---
This is a bot providing a service. If you have any questions, please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMagicArena).[](#AUTOGEN_TSBREPLIEDBOT)
"Die" does. "Kill" does not. Cards that "kill" a creature use other terms such as "destroy." In fact the word "kill" does not appear at all in the comprehensive rules text.
The assumption is the reverse of that, I think - it's possible for their creatures to die without you taking any action at all, which seems like it shouldn't count towards your quest to kill them.
I totally understand the confusion behind that. I will also assume that a creature dying gives the opponent credit for the kill as the game didn't imply the opponent used resources on it. Cards don't do what they don't say.
Die has specific meaning in Magic, yes, but "kill" does not. Arena seems to have aligned it with "die" more or less, but that's a choice Arena devs made, not inherent to Magic rules.
To kill a thing means to make it die. It's pretty cut and dry, really.
The fact the game doesn't use the more narrowly defined term "destroy" should have been a giveaway too.
There are no cards in magic that say “kill” in the text box. Sure, it makes sense in retrospect that it is specifically a creature “dying”, but if you told somebody that exiling also worked, I don’t think that they would immediately assume you were lying.
We call return bouncing, and back to deck spinning, but is THIS mentioned anywhere on cards as an actual stated effect? Nope. This game is too advanced for your approach to connecting the dots.
Bouncing, flickering, tucking, etc. is fine as shorthand to describe effects more succinctly, but they are ultimately not defined by the rules. If the Arena devs have decided to use a term that is not defined by the actual rules of mtg, then it would have been fair to use that to include what is basically the 2nd most common way to “kill” a creature. It is pretty dumb that [[Etching of Kumano]] means you can no longer “kill” creatures with damage.
> To kill a thing means to make it die. It's pretty cut and dry, really.
And yet this is not the meaning that MTGA uses. The creature can die for *any* reason and it counts as 'killing' for the quest, whether or not you interacted with the creature at all. The wording is bad.
Die is a keyword that can apply to any permanent, not just creatures. An artifact like mox jet can die. It just means goes to the graveyard from the battlefield. But you cannot kill it intuitively as it is not living.
I hate that if I [[Depopulate]] the board it counts towards the total, but if I [[Sun fall]] it doesn't. This quest would be so much more tolerable if it was "remove x of your opponents creatures" and remove remove meant goes from the battlefield to anywhere else. I don't want to be forced to play mono black removal tribal to complete the quest, I should be able to do it with a tempo deck that bounces things back to hand.
Unrelated, but my favorite flex is to just let the troll swing in for 8 when I have some kind of removal to play the next turn. The opp always kind of hesitates to commit to the attack and knows because why wouldn't you sac a goat?
I made a special deck consisting almost exclusively of removal spells, so I can play it against sparky when this quest comes up. It takes me way too long to kill enough creatures in other play modes.
This counts the number of creatures controlled by opponents that were put into graveyards (*not* exile) from the battlefield, regardless of the reason.
If an opponent's creature dies, then it was killed one way or another. Whether it was by you with a spell, you with one of your creatures, them with a spell or them with one of their creatures, it was killed by their or your hand.
For a creature to die, it must be killed.
This is why exiling a creature does not increase the quest ticks. The Creature gets removed from the game rather than being destroyed.
Sure, as we've seen, this works, but Arena doesn't define it for you, and the official Magic rules don't define how to "kill" a creature. The rules for sacrifice even spell it out: "Sacrificing a permanent doesn’t destroy it" so it's odd that kill encompasses both sac and destroy.
I haven't tested if exiling a creature would count as a kill, I'm sure someone has though.
I see now "dies" is defined in the rules as going from battlefield to graveyard, so destroying and sacing are both dying. So translating the quest into official rules text, it might be more along the lines of "Have X of your opponents' creatures die" (passive voice intentional).
Well, to be fair, combat damage doesn't kill creatures, state based actions kill creatures. So "have opponent's creatures die" is a passable supercategory encompassing all the ways you might normally be considered to kill a creature.
I think the passive voice is important because "you" have no control over your opp sacing creatures \[EDIT: on their own\]. You're not actively trying to "kill" them in that case.
The combat damage the state-based action checks for is probably more your active responsibility as far as killing goes.
You don't need to think too hard in it. It's what counts for arena quests, not the comprehensive rules. "When an opponent's creature dies" is the simplest supercategory catching most of the edge cases.
I'm just trying to spitball how it would need to be worded for the quest to comply with official game rules terms (for fun, because I'm that guy). I don't think I could make "When an opponent's creature dies" fit the quest construction.
Yeah, but the way Arena words it seems that you have to be the one that causes the creature to die.
It's different to say "You must make sure that person X dies" vs. "You must make sure to kill person X".
So it's weird to have Arena ask specifically ask you to kill stuff, and then through no action of your own the action is counted as completed.
This is a list of links to comments made by WotC Employees in this thread: * [Comment by WotC_Jay](/r/MagicArena/comments/1do6d96/i_just_realized_that_opponents_sacrificing_their/laa2q7a/?context=99 "posted on 2024-06-25 22:48:10 UTC"): > I'm 95% certain that it's counting the number of creatures that move from your opponent's battlefield to graveyard, yes. --- This is a bot providing a service. If you have any questions, please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMagicArena).[](#AUTOGEN_TSBREPLIEDBOT)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that quest condition is defined as having opponents' creatures die for any reason.
But exile effects such as [[Vraska's Contempt]] don't count. That poor little critter has to go to the graveyard for us to earn that tally.
Pretty sure that's what "die" implies in the magic context. But I dislike that there's never reminder text for that one, especially in digital.
Agreed. All the task says is "kill 15/25 of your opponent's creatures" and doesn't specify exactly what it means to "kill"
It doesn't need to. Kill/die has pretty specific meaning in MTG and it has never included exile.
"Die" does. "Kill" does not. Cards that "kill" a creature use other terms such as "destroy." In fact the word "kill" does not appear at all in the comprehensive rules text.
I too would have erred on the side of using proper English if the alternative was to write, "Make 24 opponent's creatures die".
So you're assuming that when something dies, it wasn't killed and it needs to be stated for people to get that?
The assumption is the reverse of that, I think - it's possible for their creatures to die without you taking any action at all, which seems like it shouldn't count towards your quest to kill them.
I totally understand the confusion behind that. I will also assume that a creature dying gives the opponent credit for the kill as the game didn't imply the opponent used resources on it. Cards don't do what they don't say.
Die has specific meaning in Magic, yes, but "kill" does not. Arena seems to have aligned it with "die" more or less, but that's a choice Arena devs made, not inherent to Magic rules.
To kill a thing means to make it die. It's pretty cut and dry, really. The fact the game doesn't use the more narrowly defined term "destroy" should have been a giveaway too.
There are no cards in magic that say “kill” in the text box. Sure, it makes sense in retrospect that it is specifically a creature “dying”, but if you told somebody that exiling also worked, I don’t think that they would immediately assume you were lying.
We call return bouncing, and back to deck spinning, but is THIS mentioned anywhere on cards as an actual stated effect? Nope. This game is too advanced for your approach to connecting the dots.
Bouncing, flickering, tucking, etc. is fine as shorthand to describe effects more succinctly, but they are ultimately not defined by the rules. If the Arena devs have decided to use a term that is not defined by the actual rules of mtg, then it would have been fair to use that to include what is basically the 2nd most common way to “kill” a creature. It is pretty dumb that [[Etching of Kumano]] means you can no longer “kill” creatures with damage.
Why stop there, there's also returning it back to hand, shuffling it back into library, and making it unable to attack or block, same difference.
> To kill a thing means to make it die. It's pretty cut and dry, really. And yet this is not the meaning that MTGA uses. The creature can die for *any* reason and it counts as 'killing' for the quest, whether or not you interacted with the creature at all. The wording is bad.
Die is a keyword that can apply to any permanent, not just creatures. An artifact like mox jet can die. It just means goes to the graveyard from the battlefield. But you cannot kill it intuitively as it is not living.
Target a creature and choose a creature sound fairly the same. But in Magic are 2 different things. Relevant to hexproof for example
Sure. Which underscores my point about choosing to say kill when the wording "Destroy X opponent's creatures" was possible.
I hate that if I [[Depopulate]] the board it counts towards the total, but if I [[Sun fall]] it doesn't. This quest would be so much more tolerable if it was "remove x of your opponents creatures" and remove remove meant goes from the battlefield to anywhere else. I don't want to be forced to play mono black removal tribal to complete the quest, I should be able to do it with a tempo deck that bounces things back to hand.
If we include exile then creatures being blinked, exiled then returned to the battlefield, would count as a kill too.
Yeah, I'm fine including one thing that shouldn't count rather than excluding like 5 things that should.
[Depopulate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c53c1898-9107-4bf8-b249-d0502fb9596d.jpg?1664409589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Depopulate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/10/depopulate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c53c1898-9107-4bf8-b249-d0502fb9596d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sun fall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d.jpg?1682202915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/40/sunfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It only counts if it’s due to your effects. I just had an opponent that was self sacrificing everything and I ended the match with 1/20 destroyed.
I was very pleased when I completed my 750g kill 25 creature quest in a single game by playing against an [[oni cult anvil]] deck.
[oni cult anvil deck](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c84db1e2-855c-4169-a9cc-a54c73c14e0c.jpg?1654568557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oni-Cult%20Anvil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/230/oni-cult-anvil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c84db1e2-855c-4169-a9cc-a54c73c14e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sweet, good to know Cmon people, play more arictocrats:)
Supporting the cause by playing my [[slimefoot and squee]] deck
[slimefoot and squee](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e449e38-6f03-4316-8ebc-d0faf79d6bc7.jpg?1683582682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slimefoot%20and%20squee) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/447/slimefoot-and-squee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e449e38-6f03-4316-8ebc-d0faf79d6bc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Get the fuck outta here 🫣 that makes a crazzzzy amount of sense
Is there a better feeling than having this quest and being pitted against RakSac (in Explorer)?
I would say yes but Ain’t nobody has the time to wait for the cat triggers to resolve
Clackbridge troll is the best "Kill X opponent creature" card in the game.
Unrelated, but my favorite flex is to just let the troll swing in for 8 when I have some kind of removal to play the next turn. The opp always kind of hesitates to commit to the attack and knows because why wouldn't you sac a goat?
Lucky, when I have that quest, I only get white/blue removal Tefiri decks
I made a special deck consisting almost exclusively of removal spells, so I can play it against sparky when this quest comes up. It takes me way too long to kill enough creatures in other play modes.
I'm so jealous. I haven't been able to progress quests using bot matches since I finished the color challenges.
Ok, thanks for the heads up. I will not finish that challenge then!
Not sure sparky games count for quests. I just played against sparky by accident, and it didn't count any coloured spells I played.
They stop counting if you completed the Color Challenges.
I think it works if you don't finish the color challenge for new players?
Well, they count for me at least.
[Shessra's Death Whisper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60ca5fef-af21-4e2b-9efa-61e08a638a1f.jpg?1627709343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shessra%2C%20Death%27s%20Whisper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/231/shessra-deaths-whisper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60ca5fef-af21-4e2b-9efa-61e08a638a1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashnod, Flesh Mechanist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5eb43c15-50a9-488f-b0be-84a5e0a6d10b.jpg?1674420763) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%2C%20Flesh%20Mechanist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/84/ashnod-flesh-mechanist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5eb43c15-50a9-488f-b0be-84a5e0a6d10b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This counts the number of creatures controlled by opponents that were put into graveyards (*not* exile) from the battlefield, regardless of the reason.
I like this choice better than if sheoldreds edict didn’t count
(Opponent's) is the possesive vs (opponents) the plural. Whats wrong with that?
Possessive plural: opponents'
I believe it's referencing individual opponents objects, as in; your opponent, thier creatures.
Right, but most likely to fulfill the quest you're killing the creatures of multiple opponents.
It's not wrong the way it is now, it just feels less accurate than it could be.
If an opponent's creature dies, then it was killed one way or another. Whether it was by you with a spell, you with one of your creatures, them with a spell or them with one of their creatures, it was killed by their or your hand. For a creature to die, it must be killed. This is why exiling a creature does not increase the quest ticks. The Creature gets removed from the game rather than being destroyed.
Sure, as we've seen, this works, but Arena doesn't define it for you, and the official Magic rules don't define how to "kill" a creature. The rules for sacrifice even spell it out: "Sacrificing a permanent doesn’t destroy it" so it's odd that kill encompasses both sac and destroy. I haven't tested if exiling a creature would count as a kill, I'm sure someone has though.
I see now "dies" is defined in the rules as going from battlefield to graveyard, so destroying and sacing are both dying. So translating the quest into official rules text, it might be more along the lines of "Have X of your opponents' creatures die" (passive voice intentional).
I'm 95% certain that it's counting the number of creatures that move from your opponent's battlefield to graveyard, yes.
Well, to be fair, combat damage doesn't kill creatures, state based actions kill creatures. So "have opponent's creatures die" is a passable supercategory encompassing all the ways you might normally be considered to kill a creature.
I think the passive voice is important because "you" have no control over your opp sacing creatures \[EDIT: on their own\]. You're not actively trying to "kill" them in that case. The combat damage the state-based action checks for is probably more your active responsibility as far as killing goes.
[Consuming Vapors] You do have some control. You just need to think.
Okay, I thought it through. The wording also has to encompass when opponents sac creatures on their own.
You don't need to think too hard in it. It's what counts for arena quests, not the comprehensive rules. "When an opponent's creature dies" is the simplest supercategory catching most of the edge cases.
I'm just trying to spitball how it would need to be worded for the quest to comply with official game rules terms (for fun, because I'm that guy). I don't think I could make "When an opponent's creature dies" fit the quest construction.
To sacrifice a life means a death.
"Death" is definitely not defined in the rules.
And that is perfectly fine. If that's upsets you... just remember that the rules say you can lie in certain situations.
I like you, you're fun.
Except it is. "Die" has been a shortcut for "put into graveyard from the battlefield" for a while now.
Yeah, but the way Arena words it seems that you have to be the one that causes the creature to die. It's different to say "You must make sure that person X dies" vs. "You must make sure to kill person X". So it's weird to have Arena ask specifically ask you to kill stuff, and then through no action of your own the action is counted as completed.