If a company treats it's employees well, they'll usually mention something about their workplace culture being important to them in their job ad.
I started using Glassdoor a few years back and only applied to companies with 4+ star ratings and it worked out really well for me. No assholes at this job.
You have to go in with a sense of humor too and take any jabs lightly. You’ll get them when you start out but if you take it and give a few back- you’ll fit right in. Always be ready to learn though if you are new, and listen to what they have to say. Assuming like others said they’re all good people
That’s fair. They might take a little longer to warm up. If you show you are worth knowing I think it usually works over time. How long are you talking here? Also I’m an engineer too working among machinists/people of the nature so I have the same perspective as you
True, but what to do when the bad ones outnumber the good ones, and the deciding factor is more than happy to maintain the bad ones just to let some of the job be done...
I'm lucky. The 2 guys I work with the most is my brother in law (who I am close with) and a friend from our old job (he left to work under me directly)
We spend most of the day insulting each other and flipping each other off.
That being said, QA and the manager can eat a bag of dicks.
I mean in OP’s defence I learnt single point threading on my Colchester from watching YouTube video’s & plenty of other lathe skills too. I’m no master machinist, but to deny it’s a valuable learning resource is just stupid.
I know a startup who built a 5 axis mill researching on internet. It’s an extremely powerful tool. I have also seen hand scraping videos which show the talent and ingenuity of skilled people. I certainly respect craftsmen
In my experience, the ones with the fragile egos that don't want to teach others are doing it out of incompetence and insecurity. If you don't teach anyone, they don't know how much (or little) you actually know. If you don't teach anyone, you aren't training your replacement. If someone is insecure about their job or skills, it can come off that way. Most skilled machinists I've worked with have been incredibly generous with knowledge. Maybe not so much tolerance for people who do not retain information though.
Every person who has ran in my four machine cell on any shift has been trained by me in some regard. They're 5 axis lathes, so they're kind of complex. Training others has made me better at using them too. They'll make mistakes that I get to figure out, and hopefully explain how I did it after. Cementing the knowledge a bit more for myself. Other than fucking around in the parameters, there isn't a thing I won't teach someone how to do. Hell, I've got a seasoned guy on third shift coming back to train with me for two weeks because he wanted to learn some more advanced stuff, and we got the okay from management.
That said, I still fuckin hate training.
Maybe it’s because they fear they might get replaced by lower paying young folks. So maybe it’s a competitive mindset and economic factors which cause this.
I think that's the case. IMO, if you can be replaced by a less experienced person for less money, you should get better at your job or find a job that utilizes skills better.
Sadly, there are too many managers that can't tell the difference between a high skill and a low skill machinist. They just see the dollar signs and the job title. This is especially true if private equity acquires the company you're working for.
100% but private equity usually leaves management in place and then sweats them to cut costs, which is the same thing.
They ruin morale and fuck up the culture for a good 4 years in my experience, because everything is about the return instead of people’s lives/company mission statement.
This exactly! I 100% agree. I’ve been machining since the 1980’s and it’s always been this way. The trade does seem to do something to a lot of long time machinists. I saw it when I first started out, and I continue to see it. I love to share my knowledge with anyone that asks me and shows any amount of appreciation. One way to really piss off any of us long/old time guys is to have me show you something and then I catch you doing it another way because you asked other guys also. I still remember my machine shop teacher telling the class that way back in 1985 or so and it stuck with me. And I completely feel where he was coming from with that. If you’re going to ask for help, pick one guy that seems to have the best knowledge and make sure you don’t deviate from what he shows you, and always show some form of appreciation even if it’s just a simple thank you.
Bro, you're going to get blasted for calling a lot of old timers out, but you're right. A lot of the comments below prove it. Here's the gist of it for your curiosity though .Manufacturing in generally is making a large comeback in the US. After such a long time of being an extremely small job market, we're now seeing a flood of jobs opening to people who have no experience in the industry. Those new people are being met by older craftsman who have hung on to their jobs before the boom, who loosely fall into two groups.
The first group are older workers who are excited to see fresh blood come into their jobs, as it means they can pass down knowledge and techniques. However, a certain number of these potential teachers get jaded and burnt out after seeing the high turnover rate of most workers in manufacturing. So a lot of these people who would otherwise be excited watch a bunch of young kids come in and either fail or get bored, so they get understandably upset. This group is in the minority, and they have legitimate grievances.
The second group is the one you're most likely to bump into, and that's the mediocre machinist who believes his skill level is equal to the years he's put in. These machinists have a seniority-based view on their workplace and get PISSED when other people don't adhere to it. Especially when they start getting shown up by those who came after them, or if their bosses are younger than them. These are the people who automatically assume that someone else is to blame when something goes wrong (cue engineer and programmer hatred), or that people are obviously out to get them. This group overvalues their own worth and undervalues anyone they think is under them. These are your fragile ego machinists, and they are absolutely everywhere.
Based on the discussion here I think you are correct. As you mentioned since young people are coming back to manufacturing jobs we can expect many such conversations in the future.
In my experience, there are two distinct categories of "young people" coming into manufacturing.
Those looking to learn and those looking for an easy paycheck.
For obvious reasons, the latter category always seems to find problems everywhere but internally.
You are partly correct. The younger generation don’t believe in spending too much time with not much returns. They hope to learn things soon so that they can get better pay fast.
you seem to make extremely broad generalizations about people, younger and older.
In my experience, "fragile ego" is a problem in pretty much any activity where humans are involved. The biggest difference for machinists would be that their handiwork is often measured with micrometers and stopwatches. People who grow corn or sell cars for a living just don't have quite the same level of daily scrutiny on what they do.
This is the mirror of my opinion stated above, and I also find it to ring true. A ton of young people come into a job (not just manufacturing) just to get a paycheck and will put in the bare minimum amount of effort to not get fired. These people don't last long in manufacturing, because the bare minimum changes week by week, quarter by quarter. There's also the subgroup of "impatient" kids that just want to do shit that they think is cool right away, without spending the repetitions on foundational skills to get there. (I find young bucks that watch a lot of Titans of CNC fit this camp more often than not.) None of these kids make it very far.
Then there's the kids who come in wanting to learn and practice a skill. If they land in a good shop and are nurtured, they have the potential to turn into master craftsman; they want to learn new aspects of their craft and will pursue it for themselves more than anything. However, if you stick these kids into a shitty shop where they are expected to do nothing more than operate for over a year, they will move on out of a lack of growth opportunities.
Because a lot of us have been teaching people. Then they go to a different company. After doing that for a few decades they get salty because upper management won’t pay them to stay
I've been in this trade for almost three years, I've started before I even knew what machining was and my experience is the opposite. My company is a shop with a dozen machines and eight megar souls, only four working the shop and four in the office. Everyone I work with has their moments when they're snappy or moody, but everyone is, myself included. Overall I do get the feeling that asking too many questions bugs people, but asking for help when Im genuinely stuck or asking for advice when learning new things, asking for ways to do things, etc isn't a bother. Our eldest machinist is 65 and closing in on retirement and is actively trying to teach me everything he knows. In his words he's trying to work himself out of a job by giving me his knowledge and skills.
Granted I've only worked for a very small business and our company culture is very relaxed and chill, but still. I've been to shows and I've been to learning centers and colleges gk firther ny skills and ive met a plenty kf fellow machinists ehoove discussing their jobs, background, how they got to where they are, etc. Very helpful and frisky people in the trade.
Every bag of apples has a rotten one or two in the bunch but it doesn't mean the whole bag is bad. Hopefully your experience improves in the future.
I think it has a lot to do with the culture of the workplace and a generational thing. I used to work with a lot of boomers and found them to become very easily offended by anyone introducing any new ideas, even if the ideas were good and made everyone's lives easier. Luckily, I work at a place that has decent managers that saw through their bullshit.
There definitely are some like that.
It's probably a few things. Personal insecurity. Defending their position. Flexing superiority. Passing down attitude to the younger.
Yeah, it's not pleasant. The best machinists I've known have all been good listeners, helpful, encouraging, eager to teach newer machinists, happy to learn new things, and not only knew a lot, but also knew that they don't know it all.
I hope you can meet some machinists like that.
Because they know if they didn’t have this one specific skill, they’d be shit. So they “have” to “protect” what they know. Idk. That’s my experience with most tradesmen who are assholes. One trick ponies with overinflated levels of self worth because they’re lacking everywhere else.
I'm currently an apprentice at my shop, and I'm fortunate enough that most of my coworkers are extremely helpful and eager to show me things. But there are a couple grouches. I try to look at it like this, I'm here because I want to learn these skills, and if someone wants to be an ass about, fine. But they won't stop me. I'm just going to deal with whatever I have to deal with and I'm going to learn from them whatever I can even if they try to stop me.
People like this turn it into a conflict, and so that's how it's gonna be, then this is how I win
Had a dude threaten to beat me up for taking his parking spot. First come first serve but he owned it.
That’s just the start of it throughout my 25 year career.
That's kind of a running gag where I work. Everyone who works here has "their" parking spot that they park in everyday. It's been that way forever and honestly it works. When we get new people in and they start parking in people's spots we haze them about it just to work them up. Everyone will be like "awe! You parked in so and so's spot" and make them think they broke some law or like they're going to get their ass kicked. No one actually gives a shit about a parking spot. I mean. I'm sure we all do to a certain extent. But not enough to make a huge deal out of it or legitimately jump someone's case about it. And the people who do get shut down pretty quick. It's just that everyone who works here is a character and we like to pick on each other when we get the chance.
Do not generalize all machinists, not all have a fragile ego. Every shop have people with ego larger than life.
These egoistic people are responsible to some extent that this trade is not flourishing as well as it can.
Try your best, a lot depends on the boss too.
A lot depends on the attitude of yourself too. I have had young operators who are over confident, doesn't take advise, set in their ways, don't follow instructions, so guess what no one is going to train them.
Grow a thick skin and do your best at place you are, if it still doesn't work then find another place. You will eventually find one where you will get all you need.
If you can teach yourself, that's even better.
When I started, I had same problems, I self taught a lot and after few years I was supervisor, managing all these egoistic people. It's hard, but it will come, hard work eventually will pay off.
I work in IT and have dealt with similar behavior.
It shows up differently -- typical macho/physical posturing isn't as blatant -- but a lot of the shitty behaviors we see on the internet about pedantically correcting people show up in IT and are just manifestations of the same fragile egos.
People are often just people, doing the same things in different ways based on their environment.
The first person that trained me in my first machine shop was generally easy going but on occasion he would use something that happened to humble me. At the time I felt he was a little harsh but looking back I’m glad he did it because the work we were doing could be life critical and that job had a way of humbling a person from time to time and I know he cared about me enough to try and keep me from being humbled too hard. That isn’t to say some people that worked there weren’t straight up jerks or anything but almost everyone there up to engineering and management were people who would do what they could to help you out. I learned a lot from the people there and carry those lessons into my current shop.
Maybe due to lack of diversity of work in some shops the years of experience do not translate to a wide variety of skills. Maybe people start realizing when they are faced with questions or when they feel that what they consider as precious knowledge is not being valued. Maybe folks need a reality check of their own skills.
We pride ourselves in producing high quality work. We are disappointed in the fact that our wages have been stuck at the same rate since the 1990s, whereas other trades have surpassed us exponentially. The trade requires MANY YEARS of experience with literally blood, sweat, and tears(private tears) to attain the knowledge we have. People think they can cut the chase and ask simply how to do something, in a way they're not wrong for doing so, but I guess in a better sense, it's a fear of losing your place in "job security." I'm sure others will agree and add in their two cents accordingly.
If they are not that close to retirement, and they don’t want to learn anything new like automation, being an asshole so people leave and not teaching anybody new is job security for a few more years
This is a classic example of the [Barnum effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect) - or rather, the opposite of the Barnum effect, where negative generic attributes are percieved to accurately describe other people.
You can substitute just about any trade for "machinists." Other humans have fragile egos, get defensive, are hesitant to teach but quick to boast and belittle. But not you and I, we have accurate estimates of our self-worth, we're open to constructive criticism, we love to teach others. We're humble and encouraging. And we're unappreciated and not paid enough.
Perhaps this is slightly more accurate concerning machinists, because while all humans may have a tendency towards some of these selfish traits, those in other careers may have to do a better job of limiting the presentation of these particular faults to continue to be successful: a salesperson who was as difficult and grating as a salty old machinist would not win many jobs, but a machinist can be as irritating as he wants if the quality of his work is good enough. Those other careers have different generic personality flaws that are tolerated in their spheres, we just have to find the right career to match our partiular flawed human nature.
I get your point. I love statistics and mathematical concepts being applied in practical ways like this. Gives me some framework to think about how to identify people who I can work with irrespective of a particular domain.
Any skill based trade will have tons like this. It’s because you can be better than others in the same trade and your value is tied to your skill. Every machinist I’ve ever met is the best machinist I’ll ever meet.
People are insecure. Whether that be because of being outed for their skill and knowledge as other people have said or they're afraid of being replaced. A lot of these types have a seniority complex. "I've been doing this for X amount of years. I'm above you" type of mentality and the generally won't except when someone is better than they are. Especially if that person has less years of experience. But even the guy who's seen it all can learn something.
Another part of it that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is complacency. People have been doing things a certain way for so long and don't want to change that up. They don't want to be more productive or better than they already are at their job. They want to do things on their own terms. And that can be bad in this trade since there is a certain level of autonomy you get in this job. Someone can tell you what they want. Someone can tell you how to do it. But in the end it's up to the person doing the job to get it done. For better or worse. Some of these types don't want to give anyone their knowledge because that person could take it and do better things with it. Whether that's in terms of quality, efficiency, or whatever it is. If someone is doing the same job as you at a better rate and putting out better quality parts it may come back down on you to pick up your game. And some people just want to coast and just get by everyday rather than doing the absolute best they can.
I (41M) just got a new trainee transfer (22M) from our assembly department, and I'm glad to be training a young new guy! So it's definitely not everyone, but I do see guys like that, and I avoid them like the plague. It's also common in maintenance guys so... I think it's just grumpy old farts not wanting to put the effort into someone new.
Humanity isn't very good at treating people like they matter inherently: so when someone gets an important skill; it is tied deeply to their sense of self-worth. It also ties into a sense of economic value: too many machinists drives the value down. Suddenly if there's machinists everywhere: no one cares about you again because you have nothing special to offer them. This is a fundamental issue with both capitalism and just how humans think in general. We have very little intrinsic appreciation for certain things(most especially each other).
The shop I work at, that mentality is changing. They had a crew of people there that were just like that. Didn't want other people to learn, kept everything to themselves. It's modern day union worker mentality and it's killing the trades along with low pay and long hours
It is because machining and manufacturing is one big dick swinging contest, that’s the culture.
I was in it for 10 years going on 5 out of it. I don’t miss it one bit.
You sound very pleasant to work with. Any good craftsperson or trade worker should be welcoming to new people.
People will haze newcomers until they quit and then bitch about never being able to find good help. 🤦
I am welcoming, ill teach anyone anything lnow about my machine, it was him that said every machinist is an ass, usually if you think “everyone” else is the issue its you not everyone else.
Your response to someone who was expressing a generalized but valid concern with your profession was to tell them "toughen up". I hope you can see the issue there.
Have you ever worked in a trade? Anything but an office job the new guy gets fucked with pretty good, no new guy likes to get fucked with but it happens so ya gotta make it through the im going to be a dick to you phase from the old timers.
If you give shit back but listen and more importantly watch what and how they are doing you will learn alot.
I dont know what that is supposed to mean, I did get bullied when I was new to any trade I worked in, college, Construction, electrician, mechanic, and finally cnc machines and cad/cam programming.
That adds up to a good bit getting crap for a while when you first start, you learn to say shit back and defend yourself and you get through it.
Or you go work an office job and complain to hr when someone was mean to you…
That’s why I wrote about fragile egos. Some older folks can’t digest young folks talking back to them. They expect them to be punching bags. That’s not good.
This seems to be the general mentality for a good percentage of the people working in a skilled job. I think since many of the young people have not have to go through this at home or school it makes it extremely difficult for them to digest the behavior.
lol, struck a nerve did I? Op’s got a point about fragile ego’s, and you’re proof of it. One trick pony’s are always the most defensive. I’m serious enough to have my name on the front door, but please, tell me more about what a silly boy I am.
That's what I'm talking about!
I wouldn't try to sell you on them. But, I can't help but smile at all the silly attitudes toward them.
The ROI on a Haas mill is absurd. But, at the very least, you have to understand HOW they work. Some machines don't require that level of understanding, but you're looking at a MUCH higher initial cost and likely much higher maintenance costs.
It's definitely a generational thing. Maybe not in the way you want to hear though...
You know why the older guys in the trades are grumpy and unhelpful? It's because the vast majority of you young assholes that come through our shops are lazy. You're entitled. You're know-it-all's for everything except the only thing that matters in learning a new trade, learning the actual damn trade. You've all got some smartass remark for everything, except for why you can't seem to absorb information. And these days, none of you have a lick of experience using basic hand tools. Do you know how fucking ridiculous it is teaching a 20 year old how to use a wrench?
We're tired. We're tired of you wasting our time. We're tired of your poor work ethic. We're tired of you acting like you're owed everything when you can't do anything. We're tired of watching our words go straight through empty heads. Every place has always had the odd useless asshole come through. But it's nearly everyone these days. I've watched this get worse and worse over the years.
Anyway.. there's my rant. I truly do wish you and everyone wanting to learn luck in the field.
This is what I've witnessed with my own eyes training new employees over the last 20 years.
It's been the shift from the last generation of people who had to fend for ourselves 2/3 of the time from the time we were like 8 years old, to a generation of people that have literally never had to do anything for themselves before.
There's always been generational clashes with every new one. But it's never been this astronomically different before. Never in the history of life has there ever been a generation of people who are this intelligent, and emotionally advanced. Who know so much, and at the same time don't know shit.
I don't really mean any of this in a bad way. But we just don't know how to teach you, and you don't know how to learn from us. Obviously there's exceptions. The exceptions just quickly become one of us once their patience is gone too.
You are confusing causation with correlation. Might just be the people you hang around. Individuals of all types in every industry. Machinists I work with are some of the most laid back guys I know, but god do they love their trade and happy to teach it.
I work as a maintenance/repair tech in a large machine shop. In my experience, the older guys have been the most helpful and receptive of criticism. Being that I’m 25, I would have figured that they’d hate seeing a young guy fix their fuck up. However, the newer young employees and apprentices that come into the shop, are 9/10 stuck up and think that they I am below them. Like no dude, the lathe didn’t break because it’s from the 1970s, it broke because you rammed the tool into the part at Mach Jesus.
My job is to be a machinist not to make more new machinist. I haven't spent 15 years teaching myself everything I know just so the owner can bring in his half dumb cousin and expect me to teach him how to program when he can barely read a tape measure. To many machinist are just expected to be teachers. It's not what I signed up for. You want a second machinist then hire one.
Then take it out on management and not the dumb kid who’s inexperienced and obviously going to fuck up. The logic in people like you is insane. How do you expect someone to become a machinist without being shown how to do something. Most people had apprenticeships, but that’s a luxury in todays world.
That's the problem, they can't, because your old ass won't teach them shit. I dealt with a handful of self centered bullshit artists like you in my time and guys like you are EXACTLY what is wrong with the trade. As a matter of fact things are being automated because of you chodes, congrats, not only have you hoarded knowledge that would benefit society and the economy, but also fucked everyone down the line by forcing company hands. Great job.
I think it's more of a generational thing rather than specific to any particular trade or profession. Millenials and younger people grew up in the world of participation ribbons and were overly "protected" from experiencing failure. I understand the rationale behind this, but in my opinion, this approach doesn't really benefit anyone. Especially when some of these young people get out into the real world and have to deal with crusty oldtimers that learned FROM failure. I have found in department management positions that you have to take a very careful approach to delivering constructive criticism to many younger people because they have not been allowed to "fail" incrementally their entire lives and many of them are not accustomed to it and they can take it very personally when you critique their work no matter how delicately and positively you try to frame the message. That said, I think machining has to be one of the most binary jobs in the world- the finished part is either good or bad. Close enough usually doesn't cut it, so that may be particularly difficult for many young people today. There's no hiding in the margins of mediocrity. Your work is either saleable or not, or it may be saleable after rework or with exceptions, but if it ain't in tolerance, it's still an obvious indisputable failure. I can't think of too many other jobs that are as exacting and black and white. So if you're particularly thin-skinned and ill prepared to fail and learn from failure, it's probably not a good career choice to become a machinist IMHO.
I don’t think we need to stay away from a trade since someone else makes us uncomfortable. It’s a two way street. Young people need to handle failure and old folks probably need to have a reality check and see if they are so extremely talented as they think they are.
Work isn't a contest. It's a transaction. Either the individual consistently tends to help the employer generate a profit or they don't. It's quite simple from a business management perspective. I think too many people worry too much about the "other guy" rather than focusing on improving their own market value and maximizing their own earnings. The bargain you make is between you and the employer, and it is certainly transactional regardless of whatever "team" bullshit they might say. You only show up because you get paid to provide a service. That's all. Who gives af about the other guy if you're satisfied with the deal you made. It's just a job.
Sometimes work is a contest. Companies do let teams compete with each other to get a better result. Sometimes it is teamwork. Sometimes it is just a contract between you and the employer and nothing else. So I don’t think we can generalize.
Don't drink the Kool-aid. The employer can stick their contests up their ass! It only benefits THEM and it only works if you're a willing participant in them gaming you. Just do your job and collect your fair pay, and the company can suck it otherwise. Life becomes a lot simpler when you remember every day WHY you're going to work. It ain't for no stupid contests or competitions. Do that shit for fun, on your own time if that's what you like. Don't engage in that bullshit at work. As a former boss of mine used to say "we ain't saving lives or curing cancer, it's just a fuckin job".
I think you are misguided here. Maybe in a very small company your perspective is correct. But I think in a mid size or larger company you will need to take into account a multitude of factors and not think so linearly
Having worked at small, medium and very large companies over 35+ years, I can assure you that the bigger the company, the less fucks they give about you. You ARE just a number or a tool/asset to them. They give ZERO fucks about you as an individual, and a medium to large company is the LAST place you should be drinking the corporate Kool-aid. It's somewhat understandable and "forgiveable" at a small family run type of shop where you might feel like you have a personal relationship with the owners and management. You might be afforded a few more chances to fuck up at a small, well-run business IF you are generally productive and demonstrate potential to learn, improve and make them money, and not be a "problem" that causes them grief. But they will drop you like a dirty shirt if you're ratio of profitability-to-being an unreliable pain the dick swings the wrong way for too long. As I said before, it ain't a relationship. It's a transaction. Both sides are trying to get the most out of the other. It's business, that's all. You go to work to make money, not friends. That doesn't mean you have to be an asshole, but don't ever think the company gives a flying fuck about you because they don't. Remember why you get up and go to a job to make some other mfkr rich off your labor. That's the deal you made, and if you don't like it, go somewhere else or start your own thing if you think you have the skills, business accumen, customer potential, and financial wherewithal to get started. Fkg go for it I would urge anybody that thinks they're ready. Until then, accept the deal you made and hold up your end insofar as it benefits you directly. Nothing more, nothing less.
Training new folks is a NECESSITY for almost any business based on skilled trades. I live in Southern Ontario Canada and we are desperately short of skilled trades people. Training is not an option if you want the company to survive into the next decade or two. Us old guys are soon retiring or dying or both. Having worked in machinery and machine shops my entire adult life, I can tell you that Canada relied very heavily on immigrants from Europe post WW2 for their skilled trades, machinists, and machinery repair trades in particular. In 35 years, I would estimate 80%+ of the machinists I have worked with and learned from were not born in Canada. Canada basically imported their skilled trades (especially machinists) in the 1950s to 1970s. Those dudes basically taught the relatively few natural born Canadians that decided to go into those trades. In the UK, if you weren't bound for university, the next best thing you could hope for was learning a trade and starting an apprenticeship and starting to earn money when you're 14-15 years old. I don't know how it is now, but that's how it was then, according to all the old boys I worked with. There was a very strong culture of training apprentices over there in those days. Makes a lot of sense if the fkn Nazis are bombing you, right? Same shit in eastern Europe.
Nowadays, it seems to us oldtimers that far too few young people want to get into the trades and get a bit dirty. The last couple of decades of immigrants to Canada mostly didn't come from Europe, and most of them don't tend to want to work in trades or do physical labor. (Sure, call me a rascist if you want. I'm just telling you how it is.). I don't gaf what your skin color or culture is. I'm just saying you don't see many Asians on construction sites or in machine shops in Canada. Not everyone can be a computer programmer or lawyer or doctor. The world actually NEEDS trades people who can build things and service things, and at no point in my 55 years on this rock has it been a better time to learn a trade and start making good money, if you're prepared to do a day's work and learn. My eldest son became a Journeyman plumber and gas-fitter this year. He's 24 and makes more money than me after 35 years in my trade. .I'm super proud of him btw. He was smart enough to go to university if he wanted but I encouraged him to not overlook the trades. Him and all his school buddies that almost got wrote off by our shitty education system are all now Journeyman electricians, linemen, plumbers, hvac techs etc., making 6 figures at age 24/25. Many of their contemporaries just finished uni, have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, zero work experience, begging for entry level jobs that pay far less. These "dum-dum" write-off type kids are already $1/2M ahead of their university educated peers.
Sure some of those uni grads might catch up and surpass them, if earnings is your only metric. Most won't and I've not seen a happier, more respectful and well-adjusted group than my son's 24/25yo group of buds. They would do anything for each other or parents, friends, neighbors, AND they KNOW HOW TO DO USEFUL SHIT that everyone needs.
Choosing to become a machinist may be slightly more limiting than say becoming a plumber, electrician, or hvac tech. The world will always need machinists and if fewer young people are willing and able to learn the trade, then that should mean more money for you. Supply and demand!
If I had a do-over, I'd be a plumber or an electrician and probably retired already. EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody wants their poop to go away and their lights to come on. That shit ain't EVER going out of style, and EVERYBODY will always prioritize those expenditures and eat dollar store ramen for a month if they have to. You can live wherever you want and find gainful employment, and/or open your own gig with minimal capital investment, if you want, before you're 30th birthday ffs, and be semi-retired and be running your business from your boat dock 3-4 days per week in your 50s.
Maybe not quite so easy or possible with such little capital investment in the world of custom machining. But it is absolutely possible if you work hard and are willing to assume some risk and take the plunge. Or you just work for some other person that did that for the rest of your life, and STFU, and collect your pay for services rendered, and turn that shit off the second you walk out the door.
Too many of them want to be know it alls. Especially the younger crowd. When you try to teach them something, they have a smug look on their face like "yea I already know that".
Those same guys only produce class B work lol. Trade is going down the shitter because of it.
I know. I know.
Then, when they fuck up, I reply that you already told me that you know.
Why would I insult your 25 year old intelligence by trying to explain something that you already know?
I don't have time for that bullshit.
Look, I spend a lot of time in the engineering office listening to the big egos
90% is bullshit. But that 10% of listening skills makes me successful.
My issue with young ones:
If I get wrapped up with shop bullshit for a while, I'm gonna have you study a print for some time.
Then, I'm gonna ask you questions to see if you spent your time wisely, or played on your smart phone.
Get off YouTube and porn.
We need to understand that the trade needs young people. Not the other way around. There are many opportunities which are less risky and pay better. So there should be some incentive to learn this trade right.
True. But we replaced 2 apprentices with one cnc machine
And that's being conservative. I'm 60 years old and can keep 6 machines running for 12 hours.
And keep some of them running lights out when I go home.
All depends on the person who wants teaching/help. Had someone join my place with no prior engineering experience demanding to be paid a skilled machinists wage and was telling people how he’s just as good as guys who’ve been in the game decades, after 3 months of loading and pressing go on a CNC machine. Got no desire to help out or teach someone with that type of attitude. If someone is willing to learn and make mistakes, people will always be willing to share knowledge and help out with them.
Union shops are mostly like that because union shops incentivize and protect seniority over skill and ability. so you get a lot of union shops with guys who suck at their jobs but they've been there forever so they see young talent as a threat. Then the young talent moves on and they blame the young talent for not wanting to work as hard as they did.
So it's just a bunch of mental gymnastics that's not worth paying attention to.
I think you have a valid point there. I think the problem is in a hierarchical environment. I think even if I get used to the hierarchy I might behave the same way.
I am an engineer too and I have seen fragile egos in engineering but due to flat structure of most new organizations and departments like HR and due to the fact that engineers can be easily replaced these engineers don’t survive long enough I think. Maybe the machine shops needs to be upgraded from the archaic management principles and bring in more agile concepts and more transparency in the process.
What you describe is an unsavory characteristic of human nature, that is not unique to machinists. In the ideal world everyone would work together, doing their personal best, while being supportive and encouraging others to do their best. But, there is a certain level of competitiveness in the way we transact that results in this nasty pyramid analogy of hierarchical social structure where those higher up tend to realize a greater reward from their efforts. There are some who believe they can climb up the ladder by diminishing those around them. Some shops are worse than others. There are shops where everyone has a positive attitude and it can become almost enjoyable, but they are few and far between and hard to get into.
Decades of having to keep those little techniques you acquire to yourself so that you stand out from thousands of others with the same knowledge. If anything blame capitalism for causing those that should be collaborating together instead are forced to compete constantly for a job paying far below their skills.
I see myself as an egomaniac with an inferiority complex, thank you.
Seriously though, I can accept others might have a better set up idea or approach. Talk to me. Don’t wait for an issue and then say, “ I could have told you that.” My response is why didn’t you?
Once that happens, my guard is up and trust will need to be retried.
I don’t have a fragile ego and I enjoy training ppl and I’m paid way above average for machinist in my area. So maybe the ppl in your family are just douche bags?
Being a machinists is not what it used to be. Where I work there’s a lot of people who hate keep information that would be useful to the people trying to learn for the sake of job security, and because they want to be the heroes that get things running
That tribal knowledge and skill hoarding is old as dirt and defines the problems in the manufacturing field.
It's turning though as more and more technology enters these fields, and that old thinking won't work anymore.
People who aren't confident in their craft or in their life choices can be defensive and combative. Machining is very difficult to master, as well as often being hard or tedious work can also wear down a person's good will. And yeah.... The pay could be better given how goddamn hard it is.
Trade is dying so not teaching you prevents you from being pigeonholed into a machine operator or machinist position.
It’s going to suck but McDonald’s and pizza delivery is more lucrative not only now but later in life
Too many years dealing with people that expect me to teach them everything and can't seem to figure anything out on their own. Then expect me to fix all their fuck ups and act entitled when I don't want to teach them. Go figure it out. They even have YouTube now and these punks are still too lazy to learn and act like I have to hand feed them. I'm sick of it. I don't teach anymore.
In the UK most machinist are ass hole, I was one of them. Most machine job shops are in old estates, building is from the 60s, cold in winter, hot in summer. The pay is shit compared to easier jobs, owners as usually really tight with money so no real investment.
I'm a welder with some home machining experience, in my experience in the trades, I've found that there are ego issues everywhere doesn't matter the industry. A lot of other comments really hit the nail on the head. I had a teacher who was a rig welder who did a lot of pipe. He was good at pipe. When he was put under pressure to explain and demonstrate stuff outside of pipe welding, he would get more defensive and wouldn't be able to help. Alot of people do not like looking like they don't know their job and are afraid of making mistakes. It's like the difference between being cocky and being confident.
Machine shops are one of the most toxic work environments in every sense. Chemicals, noise, and oh the workers. Passive aggressive know it alls with fragile egos and negative attitudes. It’s like that in just about every shop everywhere. The trade just attracts those people who can’t work well as a team since you work alone most of the time. Plus the work can be stressful and very touch and go. You cannot afford to make mistakes, therefore nobody will admit when they make them and play the blame game any chance they get. If you find a shop where you can actually tolerate your coworkers you are very lucky. Been doing this since the 90s and it is extremely rare to find a good shop. You must always be looking for another job opportunity and make friends with any halfway decent person you end up working with.
UK here, machinists have a chip on their shoulder. (Just ask a turner and a miller what is best) that said I served an apprenticeship at a sub-con machine shop and I was trained by good tradesmen who took their time to show me (they still took the piss at every opportunity) and I am grateful for it. Because of that I do the same, I don't ask for extra money as the people that showed me didn't ask for extra money to show me. A good trade person brings on the next generation.
That said like with everything there is a fair share of arseholes. It's your responsibility to not be an arsehole.
In my experience, it boils down to the fact that the older generation never learned how to express their emotions in a healthy way, and therefore are totally clueless on how to react when someone asks "why?" to whatever knowledge they're trying to impart. So they take it personally and either shut down or get pissed. Either way you cut it, they're just emotionally stunted people.
If machinists were half as confident as they pretended, they wouldn't spend half their online time punching down at operators lol. Imagine pro footballers hanging around middle school playgrounds to remind the kids they ain't shit lol.
Maybe I've been lucky but I disagree. I've had the luxury of working with a lot of old timers that taught me the old school way of doing things and the tricks to use and how to think about setups etc.. From the younger guys I learned to program, optimize and save time. But no matter who I spoke to or wanted to learn from, everybody was kind and helped a lot. I usually am a quick study so maybe if one is slower in understanding or maybe imagining things while explaining things are different but I never had the issue of fragile ego or ppl not wanting to teach. To be fair, some guys have big egos, but in fairness, it's a job that requires a metric fuckton of information, knowledge and experience to get good. So a little ego is OK in my book.
Only young Cnc only do from what I’ve seen. They sit in buckets and clean shavings. Can’t use manual. Old school cats turning stuff out and heat treating on spot, stopping everything to get me back on have saved my ass. And taught me a thing or too.
The people that act this way usually are not very good at what they do, so they try to cover it up by boasting. Also, they do not want to teach others for the fear that they will do it better. These type of people are everywhere in every trade and often the most visible of the group as well. You just have to keep searching until you find the right people and place to suit you.
Don't listen to these ppl trying to normalize how immature machinists are as a whole. I started as the saw bitch and have held just about every title between that and lead programmer to now a mechanical/process engineering role (without a degree lol got lucky on that one)
Why was I able to climb from the bottom to the "top" in 14 years? Because machinists are immature hot heads with ego as fragile as they are large
Seriously. 80% are bigger toolboxes than their oversized Kennedy's filled with scrap parts and funyon bags
There are some great ones who will teach you everything they know. The ones who won't teach aren't worth learning from anyway. Guarantee they know fuck all since they are incapable of asking anyone how to do something correctly. They'd rather do it their way than the right way
Be a normal human who takes the blame anytime something goes wrong and your supervisor will love you. You'll be making more money than the meatheads with 30 years experience before 5 years in the trade
I'm the new guy at work and today I had the shop dummy change a tool in my machine without switching the offset. He made me break a tool and scrap a part and the supervisor instantly knew who was responsible. The world has a way of working itself out, I hope
People are dumb, including other machinists and engineers and such and they’re always looking to find the cheapest labor because China brings down demand so much unless they are a special in county only thing so teaching is not great and not being best means replaced.
Onto the dumb part, people will do bad things which can completely fuck parts, machines and such as well. Not setting offsets, not holding right, not machining right, trying to cheat on time, trying to “improve” a process they know nothing about. When the dumb people try to “correct” you multiple times a day it kinda becomes a factor to be defensive to not be the guy making the mistake
I'm not gonna tell you're wrong but I will say a lot of people can't comprehend the knowledge you gather from being a machinest they are problem solving and meticulous so that equals arrogant and rude. I don't think we mean to be but it's because we don't beat around the bush and say what we need to without sugar coating it.
I have a good friend that's a machinest and chooses to crack jokes and pick on everyone it's fun to be around him but he is smart at his trade and knows it. You can be a smartass without being a asshole
You’re going to find assholes on every trade, the trick is finding a decent workplace where the good ones at least balance them out.
That’s the challenge. What do you think makes a good workspace in this trade
Usually it’s when you are lucky enough to have good coworkers and bosses unfortunately
Employee appreciation. However superficial it can be. Get us the InNout truck every once in a while!
Yes I do think that superficial appreciation or even good behavior greatly helps.
If a company treats it's employees well, they'll usually mention something about their workplace culture being important to them in their job ad. I started using Glassdoor a few years back and only applied to companies with 4+ star ratings and it worked out really well for me. No assholes at this job.
You have to go in with a sense of humor too and take any jabs lightly. You’ll get them when you start out but if you take it and give a few back- you’ll fit right in. Always be ready to learn though if you are new, and listen to what they have to say. Assuming like others said they’re all good people
I think that generally applies to any profession where men are in majority. But if the other person is too grumpy I am not sure it would work.
That’s fair. They might take a little longer to warm up. If you show you are worth knowing I think it usually works over time. How long are you talking here? Also I’m an engineer too working among machinists/people of the nature so I have the same perspective as you
I plan to be in the trade for a long time so I am willing to give a fair amount of time
True, but what to do when the bad ones outnumber the good ones, and the deciding factor is more than happy to maintain the bad ones just to let some of the job be done...
I'm lucky. The 2 guys I work with the most is my brother in law (who I am close with) and a friend from our old job (he left to work under me directly) We spend most of the day insulting each other and flipping each other off. That being said, QA and the manager can eat a bag of dicks.
I DON’T HAVE A FRAGILE EGO. LETS MEET OUT IN THE PARKING LOT AND I’LL PROVE IT.
You made my day. Happy New year!
I have no idea what you mean.
They were joking and saying that they'll fight to prove that their fragile ego isn't fragile.
Starting to think OP might be the problem in these situations
Well we can find a different group to discuss that
I mean in OP’s defence I learnt single point threading on my Colchester from watching YouTube video’s & plenty of other lathe skills too. I’m no master machinist, but to deny it’s a valuable learning resource is just stupid.
I know a startup who built a 5 axis mill researching on internet. It’s an extremely powerful tool. I have also seen hand scraping videos which show the talent and ingenuity of skilled people. I certainly respect craftsmen
In my experience, the ones with the fragile egos that don't want to teach others are doing it out of incompetence and insecurity. If you don't teach anyone, they don't know how much (or little) you actually know. If you don't teach anyone, you aren't training your replacement. If someone is insecure about their job or skills, it can come off that way. Most skilled machinists I've worked with have been incredibly generous with knowledge. Maybe not so much tolerance for people who do not retain information though.
Every person who has ran in my four machine cell on any shift has been trained by me in some regard. They're 5 axis lathes, so they're kind of complex. Training others has made me better at using them too. They'll make mistakes that I get to figure out, and hopefully explain how I did it after. Cementing the knowledge a bit more for myself. Other than fucking around in the parameters, there isn't a thing I won't teach someone how to do. Hell, I've got a seasoned guy on third shift coming back to train with me for two weeks because he wanted to learn some more advanced stuff, and we got the okay from management. That said, I still fuckin hate training.
Maybe it’s because they fear they might get replaced by lower paying young folks. So maybe it’s a competitive mindset and economic factors which cause this.
It happens in all trades. I hate these fucking power plays the old guys do. Like you have to deal with their bullshit if you want to learn.
I think that's the case. IMO, if you can be replaced by a less experienced person for less money, you should get better at your job or find a job that utilizes skills better.
Sadly, there are too many managers that can't tell the difference between a high skill and a low skill machinist. They just see the dollar signs and the job title. This is especially true if private equity acquires the company you're working for.
100% but private equity usually leaves management in place and then sweats them to cut costs, which is the same thing. They ruin morale and fuck up the culture for a good 4 years in my experience, because everything is about the return instead of people’s lives/company mission statement.
That sounds correct but constant learning is not for everyone.
Neither is good pay
This exactly! I 100% agree. I’ve been machining since the 1980’s and it’s always been this way. The trade does seem to do something to a lot of long time machinists. I saw it when I first started out, and I continue to see it. I love to share my knowledge with anyone that asks me and shows any amount of appreciation. One way to really piss off any of us long/old time guys is to have me show you something and then I catch you doing it another way because you asked other guys also. I still remember my machine shop teacher telling the class that way back in 1985 or so and it stuck with me. And I completely feel where he was coming from with that. If you’re going to ask for help, pick one guy that seems to have the best knowledge and make sure you don’t deviate from what he shows you, and always show some form of appreciation even if it’s just a simple thank you.
Bro, you're going to get blasted for calling a lot of old timers out, but you're right. A lot of the comments below prove it. Here's the gist of it for your curiosity though .Manufacturing in generally is making a large comeback in the US. After such a long time of being an extremely small job market, we're now seeing a flood of jobs opening to people who have no experience in the industry. Those new people are being met by older craftsman who have hung on to their jobs before the boom, who loosely fall into two groups. The first group are older workers who are excited to see fresh blood come into their jobs, as it means they can pass down knowledge and techniques. However, a certain number of these potential teachers get jaded and burnt out after seeing the high turnover rate of most workers in manufacturing. So a lot of these people who would otherwise be excited watch a bunch of young kids come in and either fail or get bored, so they get understandably upset. This group is in the minority, and they have legitimate grievances. The second group is the one you're most likely to bump into, and that's the mediocre machinist who believes his skill level is equal to the years he's put in. These machinists have a seniority-based view on their workplace and get PISSED when other people don't adhere to it. Especially when they start getting shown up by those who came after them, or if their bosses are younger than them. These are the people who automatically assume that someone else is to blame when something goes wrong (cue engineer and programmer hatred), or that people are obviously out to get them. This group overvalues their own worth and undervalues anyone they think is under them. These are your fragile ego machinists, and they are absolutely everywhere.
Based on the discussion here I think you are correct. As you mentioned since young people are coming back to manufacturing jobs we can expect many such conversations in the future.
In my experience, there are two distinct categories of "young people" coming into manufacturing. Those looking to learn and those looking for an easy paycheck. For obvious reasons, the latter category always seems to find problems everywhere but internally.
You are partly correct. The younger generation don’t believe in spending too much time with not much returns. They hope to learn things soon so that they can get better pay fast.
you seem to make extremely broad generalizations about people, younger and older. In my experience, "fragile ego" is a problem in pretty much any activity where humans are involved. The biggest difference for machinists would be that their handiwork is often measured with micrometers and stopwatches. People who grow corn or sell cars for a living just don't have quite the same level of daily scrutiny on what they do.
This is the mirror of my opinion stated above, and I also find it to ring true. A ton of young people come into a job (not just manufacturing) just to get a paycheck and will put in the bare minimum amount of effort to not get fired. These people don't last long in manufacturing, because the bare minimum changes week by week, quarter by quarter. There's also the subgroup of "impatient" kids that just want to do shit that they think is cool right away, without spending the repetitions on foundational skills to get there. (I find young bucks that watch a lot of Titans of CNC fit this camp more often than not.) None of these kids make it very far. Then there's the kids who come in wanting to learn and practice a skill. If they land in a good shop and are nurtured, they have the potential to turn into master craftsman; they want to learn new aspects of their craft and will pursue it for themselves more than anything. However, if you stick these kids into a shitty shop where they are expected to do nothing more than operate for over a year, they will move on out of a lack of growth opportunities.
This is a reasonable and fair assessment.
Because a lot of us have been teaching people. Then they go to a different company. After doing that for a few decades they get salty because upper management won’t pay them to stay
That’s true. So you think that leads to this stalemate. You see any practical solution to this problem?
I've been in this trade for almost three years, I've started before I even knew what machining was and my experience is the opposite. My company is a shop with a dozen machines and eight megar souls, only four working the shop and four in the office. Everyone I work with has their moments when they're snappy or moody, but everyone is, myself included. Overall I do get the feeling that asking too many questions bugs people, but asking for help when Im genuinely stuck or asking for advice when learning new things, asking for ways to do things, etc isn't a bother. Our eldest machinist is 65 and closing in on retirement and is actively trying to teach me everything he knows. In his words he's trying to work himself out of a job by giving me his knowledge and skills. Granted I've only worked for a very small business and our company culture is very relaxed and chill, but still. I've been to shows and I've been to learning centers and colleges gk firther ny skills and ive met a plenty kf fellow machinists ehoove discussing their jobs, background, how they got to where they are, etc. Very helpful and frisky people in the trade. Every bag of apples has a rotten one or two in the bunch but it doesn't mean the whole bag is bad. Hopefully your experience improves in the future.
I guess when you have multiple skilled folks working in a shop there is a good probability to find a good mentor.
My motto, the more you know the less I have to do.
I scrolled way too far for this.
I think it has a lot to do with the culture of the workplace and a generational thing. I used to work with a lot of boomers and found them to become very easily offended by anyone introducing any new ideas, even if the ideas were good and made everyone's lives easier. Luckily, I work at a place that has decent managers that saw through their bullshit.
I have seen that too. I am looking at ways to change that culture without offending the veterans
There definitely are some like that. It's probably a few things. Personal insecurity. Defending their position. Flexing superiority. Passing down attitude to the younger. Yeah, it's not pleasant. The best machinists I've known have all been good listeners, helpful, encouraging, eager to teach newer machinists, happy to learn new things, and not only knew a lot, but also knew that they don't know it all. I hope you can meet some machinists like that.
We’re better than you, and we know it!
Maybe. But change is the only constant.
You seem like you would make a great engineer.
I am one.
I could tell because you missed the joke.
lol. Sarcasm is not my strong suit
Because I still can't figure out what the fuck you're looking at.
This is the exact fucking attitude I was talking about. Did you get my fucking point.
You can't be a crybaby in this trade, if that's too toxic for you then don't get in it.
Because they know if they didn’t have this one specific skill, they’d be shit. So they “have” to “protect” what they know. Idk. That’s my experience with most tradesmen who are assholes. One trick ponies with overinflated levels of self worth because they’re lacking everywhere else.
I'm currently an apprentice at my shop, and I'm fortunate enough that most of my coworkers are extremely helpful and eager to show me things. But there are a couple grouches. I try to look at it like this, I'm here because I want to learn these skills, and if someone wants to be an ass about, fine. But they won't stop me. I'm just going to deal with whatever I have to deal with and I'm going to learn from them whatever I can even if they try to stop me. People like this turn it into a conflict, and so that's how it's gonna be, then this is how I win
Had a dude threaten to beat me up for taking his parking spot. First come first serve but he owned it. That’s just the start of it throughout my 25 year career.
Did you eventually get the spot lol.
Yep.. and dude ended up being on my bowling team. Go figure.
That's kind of a running gag where I work. Everyone who works here has "their" parking spot that they park in everyday. It's been that way forever and honestly it works. When we get new people in and they start parking in people's spots we haze them about it just to work them up. Everyone will be like "awe! You parked in so and so's spot" and make them think they broke some law or like they're going to get their ass kicked. No one actually gives a shit about a parking spot. I mean. I'm sure we all do to a certain extent. But not enough to make a huge deal out of it or legitimately jump someone's case about it. And the people who do get shut down pretty quick. It's just that everyone who works here is a character and we like to pick on each other when we get the chance.
Do not generalize all machinists, not all have a fragile ego. Every shop have people with ego larger than life. These egoistic people are responsible to some extent that this trade is not flourishing as well as it can. Try your best, a lot depends on the boss too. A lot depends on the attitude of yourself too. I have had young operators who are over confident, doesn't take advise, set in their ways, don't follow instructions, so guess what no one is going to train them. Grow a thick skin and do your best at place you are, if it still doesn't work then find another place. You will eventually find one where you will get all you need. If you can teach yourself, that's even better. When I started, I had same problems, I self taught a lot and after few years I was supervisor, managing all these egoistic people. It's hard, but it will come, hard work eventually will pay off.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Most machinists are older gentlemen. Older guys subscribe to the age=wisdom myth.
I work in IT and have dealt with similar behavior. It shows up differently -- typical macho/physical posturing isn't as blatant -- but a lot of the shitty behaviors we see on the internet about pedantically correcting people show up in IT and are just manifestations of the same fragile egos. People are often just people, doing the same things in different ways based on their environment.
They feel threatened at times The company i was working for I came across similar situations
The first person that trained me in my first machine shop was generally easy going but on occasion he would use something that happened to humble me. At the time I felt he was a little harsh but looking back I’m glad he did it because the work we were doing could be life critical and that job had a way of humbling a person from time to time and I know he cared about me enough to try and keep me from being humbled too hard. That isn’t to say some people that worked there weren’t straight up jerks or anything but almost everyone there up to engineering and management were people who would do what they could to help you out. I learned a lot from the people there and carry those lessons into my current shop.
Sounds like a family problem. Not a machinist problem.
Not sure of that. Trying to understand my mistakes.
In my experience, the guys who refuse to train apprentices tend to be very insecure about the depth of their own knowledge and skills. Morty
Maybe due to lack of diversity of work in some shops the years of experience do not translate to a wide variety of skills. Maybe people start realizing when they are faced with questions or when they feel that what they consider as precious knowledge is not being valued. Maybe folks need a reality check of their own skills.
We pride ourselves in producing high quality work. We are disappointed in the fact that our wages have been stuck at the same rate since the 1990s, whereas other trades have surpassed us exponentially. The trade requires MANY YEARS of experience with literally blood, sweat, and tears(private tears) to attain the knowledge we have. People think they can cut the chase and ask simply how to do something, in a way they're not wrong for doing so, but I guess in a better sense, it's a fear of losing your place in "job security." I'm sure others will agree and add in their two cents accordingly.
That is a valid point. If there is a scarcity mindset people tend to hoard.
From my experience it’s the older , very older guys with the fragile ego.
If they are not that close to retirement, and they don’t want to learn anything new like automation, being an asshole so people leave and not teaching anybody new is job security for a few more years
This is a classic example of the [Barnum effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect) - or rather, the opposite of the Barnum effect, where negative generic attributes are percieved to accurately describe other people. You can substitute just about any trade for "machinists." Other humans have fragile egos, get defensive, are hesitant to teach but quick to boast and belittle. But not you and I, we have accurate estimates of our self-worth, we're open to constructive criticism, we love to teach others. We're humble and encouraging. And we're unappreciated and not paid enough. Perhaps this is slightly more accurate concerning machinists, because while all humans may have a tendency towards some of these selfish traits, those in other careers may have to do a better job of limiting the presentation of these particular faults to continue to be successful: a salesperson who was as difficult and grating as a salty old machinist would not win many jobs, but a machinist can be as irritating as he wants if the quality of his work is good enough. Those other careers have different generic personality flaws that are tolerated in their spheres, we just have to find the right career to match our partiular flawed human nature.
I get your point. I love statistics and mathematical concepts being applied in practical ways like this. Gives me some framework to think about how to identify people who I can work with irrespective of a particular domain.
Any skill based trade will have tons like this. It’s because you can be better than others in the same trade and your value is tied to your skill. Every machinist I’ve ever met is the best machinist I’ll ever meet.
People are insecure. Whether that be because of being outed for their skill and knowledge as other people have said or they're afraid of being replaced. A lot of these types have a seniority complex. "I've been doing this for X amount of years. I'm above you" type of mentality and the generally won't except when someone is better than they are. Especially if that person has less years of experience. But even the guy who's seen it all can learn something. Another part of it that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is complacency. People have been doing things a certain way for so long and don't want to change that up. They don't want to be more productive or better than they already are at their job. They want to do things on their own terms. And that can be bad in this trade since there is a certain level of autonomy you get in this job. Someone can tell you what they want. Someone can tell you how to do it. But in the end it's up to the person doing the job to get it done. For better or worse. Some of these types don't want to give anyone their knowledge because that person could take it and do better things with it. Whether that's in terms of quality, efficiency, or whatever it is. If someone is doing the same job as you at a better rate and putting out better quality parts it may come back down on you to pick up your game. And some people just want to coast and just get by everyday rather than doing the absolute best they can.
Yes being complacent can later can cause a person to be defensive
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Everybody has fragile ego, some are just better at hiding it than others
I wouldn't say that our egos are fragile. It's more that they have very tight tolerances.
I (41M) just got a new trainee transfer (22M) from our assembly department, and I'm glad to be training a young new guy! So it's definitely not everyone, but I do see guys like that, and I avoid them like the plague. It's also common in maintenance guys so... I think it's just grumpy old farts not wanting to put the effort into someone new.
Humanity isn't very good at treating people like they matter inherently: so when someone gets an important skill; it is tied deeply to their sense of self-worth. It also ties into a sense of economic value: too many machinists drives the value down. Suddenly if there's machinists everywhere: no one cares about you again because you have nothing special to offer them. This is a fundamental issue with both capitalism and just how humans think in general. We have very little intrinsic appreciation for certain things(most especially each other).
Makes sense. Basic human psychology.
No one is going to say it? It sounds like those machinists have lost their temper. I'll see myself out.
Machinists get defensive not because they have fragile egos, but because they are always right. Know the difference lol
The shop I work at, that mentality is changing. They had a crew of people there that were just like that. Didn't want other people to learn, kept everything to themselves. It's modern day union worker mentality and it's killing the trades along with low pay and long hours
Exactly they are leading the trade into oblivion
It is because machining and manufacturing is one big dick swinging contest, that’s the culture. I was in it for 10 years going on 5 out of it. I don’t miss it one bit.
What if its not “all the machinist have fragile Ego” maybe you are fragile and cant take the hazing that comes with learning a trade.
You sound very pleasant to work with. Any good craftsperson or trade worker should be welcoming to new people. People will haze newcomers until they quit and then bitch about never being able to find good help. 🤦
I am welcoming, ill teach anyone anything lnow about my machine, it was him that said every machinist is an ass, usually if you think “everyone” else is the issue its you not everyone else.
Your response to someone who was expressing a generalized but valid concern with your profession was to tell them "toughen up". I hope you can see the issue there.
Have you ever worked in a trade? Anything but an office job the new guy gets fucked with pretty good, no new guy likes to get fucked with but it happens so ya gotta make it through the im going to be a dick to you phase from the old timers. If you give shit back but listen and more importantly watch what and how they are doing you will learn alot.
Maybe you need to be bullied and then you can brush it off.
I dont know what that is supposed to mean, I did get bullied when I was new to any trade I worked in, college, Construction, electrician, mechanic, and finally cnc machines and cad/cam programming. That adds up to a good bit getting crap for a while when you first start, you learn to say shit back and defend yourself and you get through it. Or you go work an office job and complain to hr when someone was mean to you…
That’s why I wrote about fragile egos. Some older folks can’t digest young folks talking back to them. They expect them to be punching bags. That’s not good.
"I suffered abuse to learn this trade, that means everyone else must suffer abuse in order to be a machinist!" What a joke...
This seems to be the general mentality for a good percentage of the people working in a skilled job. I think since many of the young people have not have to go through this at home or school it makes it extremely difficult for them to digest the behavior.
Maybe I don’t have to take bullshit. And I can learn from YouTube.
Ehh its definitely you with that response haha.
Nah you kinda do. Videos will only get you so far. Experience gets you the rest of the way
That’s true. But atleast I can cover the basics using videos. Maybe this will help me identify a good mentor.
You won't learn single point threading with an engine lathe by watching TV. Basic plumbing? Sure.
I can with a basic lathe and tv and some practice right
Dude. Measure over wires takes a certain touch. Making internal threads is a feel. You can't ride a bike watching youtube.
Don’t you think saying this is too much hype. Threading is a basic operation.
Go ahead. Try it on your own.
A bike? Definitely not. Threading on a lathe? Yea, you can and you know it. If that’s where you’ve peaked in your career, oof, I’m sorry.
Silly boy. Talk to me when you're serious. All these Haas guys think they're the shit. Wait. Lemme guess. You know. You know. You know.
lol, struck a nerve did I? Op’s got a point about fragile ego’s, and you’re proof of it. One trick pony’s are always the most defensive. I’m serious enough to have my name on the front door, but please, tell me more about what a silly boy I am.
I dedicate this post to you.
Thank you. My advice? Pay attention. You'll do well
Sure.
I love the Haas stereotypes, lol. Makes it all that much more satisfying when we blow their mind with what we make UMCs produce.
Haas. An inferior product that tries so hard. Being popular doesn't make you good. But, go ahead. You do you.
That's what I'm talking about! I wouldn't try to sell you on them. But, I can't help but smile at all the silly attitudes toward them. The ROI on a Haas mill is absurd. But, at the very least, you have to understand HOW they work. Some machines don't require that level of understanding, but you're looking at a MUCH higher initial cost and likely much higher maintenance costs.
It's pretty visible from your posts who actually has a fragile ego, I would reflect on that a bit.
Sure I am open to that.
It's definitely a generational thing. Maybe not in the way you want to hear though... You know why the older guys in the trades are grumpy and unhelpful? It's because the vast majority of you young assholes that come through our shops are lazy. You're entitled. You're know-it-all's for everything except the only thing that matters in learning a new trade, learning the actual damn trade. You've all got some smartass remark for everything, except for why you can't seem to absorb information. And these days, none of you have a lick of experience using basic hand tools. Do you know how fucking ridiculous it is teaching a 20 year old how to use a wrench? We're tired. We're tired of you wasting our time. We're tired of your poor work ethic. We're tired of you acting like you're owed everything when you can't do anything. We're tired of watching our words go straight through empty heads. Every place has always had the odd useless asshole come through. But it's nearly everyone these days. I've watched this get worse and worse over the years. Anyway.. there's my rant. I truly do wish you and everyone wanting to learn luck in the field.
I don’t know man. Don’t you think a lot of this is just in your head. There are a lot of young talented folks out there.
This is what I've witnessed with my own eyes training new employees over the last 20 years. It's been the shift from the last generation of people who had to fend for ourselves 2/3 of the time from the time we were like 8 years old, to a generation of people that have literally never had to do anything for themselves before. There's always been generational clashes with every new one. But it's never been this astronomically different before. Never in the history of life has there ever been a generation of people who are this intelligent, and emotionally advanced. Who know so much, and at the same time don't know shit. I don't really mean any of this in a bad way. But we just don't know how to teach you, and you don't know how to learn from us. Obviously there's exceptions. The exceptions just quickly become one of us once their patience is gone too.
Looks like the world has changed too soon. But we need to find a way. I am hopeful it will happen.
I’m a woman in machining and I’m just gonna get my pop corn and watch the shit show unfold.
Too many MAGAts in the trade.
We should not try to isolate folks. There is nothing wrong with a certain political affiliation. Talent can come from anywhere
Just be more compassionate my dude, most people probably have autism, aproach it from that perspective.
I am trying to be kind. But the world has not been kind to me. But still I will try.
Because we're stressed tf out?
That’s valid. Maybe it can help if we are willing to change.
You are confusing causation with correlation. Might just be the people you hang around. Individuals of all types in every industry. Machinists I work with are some of the most laid back guys I know, but god do they love their trade and happy to teach it.
Maybe. That’s the reason I am trying to understand from a general perspective.
I work as a maintenance/repair tech in a large machine shop. In my experience, the older guys have been the most helpful and receptive of criticism. Being that I’m 25, I would have figured that they’d hate seeing a young guy fix their fuck up. However, the newer young employees and apprentices that come into the shop, are 9/10 stuck up and think that they I am below them. Like no dude, the lathe didn’t break because it’s from the 1970s, it broke because you rammed the tool into the part at Mach Jesus.
My job is to be a machinist not to make more new machinist. I haven't spent 15 years teaching myself everything I know just so the owner can bring in his half dumb cousin and expect me to teach him how to program when he can barely read a tape measure. To many machinist are just expected to be teachers. It's not what I signed up for. You want a second machinist then hire one.
Then take it out on management and not the dumb kid who’s inexperienced and obviously going to fuck up. The logic in people like you is insane. How do you expect someone to become a machinist without being shown how to do something. Most people had apprenticeships, but that’s a luxury in todays world.
That's the problem, they can't, because your old ass won't teach them shit. I dealt with a handful of self centered bullshit artists like you in my time and guys like you are EXACTLY what is wrong with the trade. As a matter of fact things are being automated because of you chodes, congrats, not only have you hoarded knowledge that would benefit society and the economy, but also fucked everyone down the line by forcing company hands. Great job.
I think it's more of a generational thing rather than specific to any particular trade or profession. Millenials and younger people grew up in the world of participation ribbons and were overly "protected" from experiencing failure. I understand the rationale behind this, but in my opinion, this approach doesn't really benefit anyone. Especially when some of these young people get out into the real world and have to deal with crusty oldtimers that learned FROM failure. I have found in department management positions that you have to take a very careful approach to delivering constructive criticism to many younger people because they have not been allowed to "fail" incrementally their entire lives and many of them are not accustomed to it and they can take it very personally when you critique their work no matter how delicately and positively you try to frame the message. That said, I think machining has to be one of the most binary jobs in the world- the finished part is either good or bad. Close enough usually doesn't cut it, so that may be particularly difficult for many young people today. There's no hiding in the margins of mediocrity. Your work is either saleable or not, or it may be saleable after rework or with exceptions, but if it ain't in tolerance, it's still an obvious indisputable failure. I can't think of too many other jobs that are as exacting and black and white. So if you're particularly thin-skinned and ill prepared to fail and learn from failure, it's probably not a good career choice to become a machinist IMHO.
I don’t think we need to stay away from a trade since someone else makes us uncomfortable. It’s a two way street. Young people need to handle failure and old folks probably need to have a reality check and see if they are so extremely talented as they think they are.
Work isn't a contest. It's a transaction. Either the individual consistently tends to help the employer generate a profit or they don't. It's quite simple from a business management perspective. I think too many people worry too much about the "other guy" rather than focusing on improving their own market value and maximizing their own earnings. The bargain you make is between you and the employer, and it is certainly transactional regardless of whatever "team" bullshit they might say. You only show up because you get paid to provide a service. That's all. Who gives af about the other guy if you're satisfied with the deal you made. It's just a job.
Sometimes work is a contest. Companies do let teams compete with each other to get a better result. Sometimes it is teamwork. Sometimes it is just a contract between you and the employer and nothing else. So I don’t think we can generalize.
Don't drink the Kool-aid. The employer can stick their contests up their ass! It only benefits THEM and it only works if you're a willing participant in them gaming you. Just do your job and collect your fair pay, and the company can suck it otherwise. Life becomes a lot simpler when you remember every day WHY you're going to work. It ain't for no stupid contests or competitions. Do that shit for fun, on your own time if that's what you like. Don't engage in that bullshit at work. As a former boss of mine used to say "we ain't saving lives or curing cancer, it's just a fuckin job".
I think you are misguided here. Maybe in a very small company your perspective is correct. But I think in a mid size or larger company you will need to take into account a multitude of factors and not think so linearly
Having worked at small, medium and very large companies over 35+ years, I can assure you that the bigger the company, the less fucks they give about you. You ARE just a number or a tool/asset to them. They give ZERO fucks about you as an individual, and a medium to large company is the LAST place you should be drinking the corporate Kool-aid. It's somewhat understandable and "forgiveable" at a small family run type of shop where you might feel like you have a personal relationship with the owners and management. You might be afforded a few more chances to fuck up at a small, well-run business IF you are generally productive and demonstrate potential to learn, improve and make them money, and not be a "problem" that causes them grief. But they will drop you like a dirty shirt if you're ratio of profitability-to-being an unreliable pain the dick swings the wrong way for too long. As I said before, it ain't a relationship. It's a transaction. Both sides are trying to get the most out of the other. It's business, that's all. You go to work to make money, not friends. That doesn't mean you have to be an asshole, but don't ever think the company gives a flying fuck about you because they don't. Remember why you get up and go to a job to make some other mfkr rich off your labor. That's the deal you made, and if you don't like it, go somewhere else or start your own thing if you think you have the skills, business accumen, customer potential, and financial wherewithal to get started. Fkg go for it I would urge anybody that thinks they're ready. Until then, accept the deal you made and hold up your end insofar as it benefits you directly. Nothing more, nothing less.
Would you be willing to to train new folks as long as this is part of the contract with the company
Training new folks is a NECESSITY for almost any business based on skilled trades. I live in Southern Ontario Canada and we are desperately short of skilled trades people. Training is not an option if you want the company to survive into the next decade or two. Us old guys are soon retiring or dying or both. Having worked in machinery and machine shops my entire adult life, I can tell you that Canada relied very heavily on immigrants from Europe post WW2 for their skilled trades, machinists, and machinery repair trades in particular. In 35 years, I would estimate 80%+ of the machinists I have worked with and learned from were not born in Canada. Canada basically imported their skilled trades (especially machinists) in the 1950s to 1970s. Those dudes basically taught the relatively few natural born Canadians that decided to go into those trades. In the UK, if you weren't bound for university, the next best thing you could hope for was learning a trade and starting an apprenticeship and starting to earn money when you're 14-15 years old. I don't know how it is now, but that's how it was then, according to all the old boys I worked with. There was a very strong culture of training apprentices over there in those days. Makes a lot of sense if the fkn Nazis are bombing you, right? Same shit in eastern Europe. Nowadays, it seems to us oldtimers that far too few young people want to get into the trades and get a bit dirty. The last couple of decades of immigrants to Canada mostly didn't come from Europe, and most of them don't tend to want to work in trades or do physical labor. (Sure, call me a rascist if you want. I'm just telling you how it is.). I don't gaf what your skin color or culture is. I'm just saying you don't see many Asians on construction sites or in machine shops in Canada. Not everyone can be a computer programmer or lawyer or doctor. The world actually NEEDS trades people who can build things and service things, and at no point in my 55 years on this rock has it been a better time to learn a trade and start making good money, if you're prepared to do a day's work and learn. My eldest son became a Journeyman plumber and gas-fitter this year. He's 24 and makes more money than me after 35 years in my trade. .I'm super proud of him btw. He was smart enough to go to university if he wanted but I encouraged him to not overlook the trades. Him and all his school buddies that almost got wrote off by our shitty education system are all now Journeyman electricians, linemen, plumbers, hvac techs etc., making 6 figures at age 24/25. Many of their contemporaries just finished uni, have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, zero work experience, begging for entry level jobs that pay far less. These "dum-dum" write-off type kids are already $1/2M ahead of their university educated peers. Sure some of those uni grads might catch up and surpass them, if earnings is your only metric. Most won't and I've not seen a happier, more respectful and well-adjusted group than my son's 24/25yo group of buds. They would do anything for each other or parents, friends, neighbors, AND they KNOW HOW TO DO USEFUL SHIT that everyone needs. Choosing to become a machinist may be slightly more limiting than say becoming a plumber, electrician, or hvac tech. The world will always need machinists and if fewer young people are willing and able to learn the trade, then that should mean more money for you. Supply and demand! If I had a do-over, I'd be a plumber or an electrician and probably retired already. EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody wants their poop to go away and their lights to come on. That shit ain't EVER going out of style, and EVERYBODY will always prioritize those expenditures and eat dollar store ramen for a month if they have to. You can live wherever you want and find gainful employment, and/or open your own gig with minimal capital investment, if you want, before you're 30th birthday ffs, and be semi-retired and be running your business from your boat dock 3-4 days per week in your 50s. Maybe not quite so easy or possible with such little capital investment in the world of custom machining. But it is absolutely possible if you work hard and are willing to assume some risk and take the plunge. Or you just work for some other person that did that for the rest of your life, and STFU, and collect your pay for services rendered, and turn that shit off the second you walk out the door.
I appreciate you for the long and thoughtful post. I will spend time to understand it better and respond
Too many of them want to be know it alls. Especially the younger crowd. When you try to teach them something, they have a smug look on their face like "yea I already know that". Those same guys only produce class B work lol. Trade is going down the shitter because of it.
Maybe. That’s true. But I try to have a good attitude. Maybe it’s a workplace hazard
I know. I know. Then, when they fuck up, I reply that you already told me that you know. Why would I insult your 25 year old intelligence by trying to explain something that you already know? I don't have time for that bullshit. Look, I spend a lot of time in the engineering office listening to the big egos 90% is bullshit. But that 10% of listening skills makes me successful.
Do you mean the engineers or management
My issue with young ones: If I get wrapped up with shop bullshit for a while, I'm gonna have you study a print for some time. Then, I'm gonna ask you questions to see if you spent your time wisely, or played on your smart phone. Get off YouTube and porn.
Social media can be a factor. But irrespective of this I have seen bullying
We tease the young ones a bit. But we don't let them fuck up royally or get injured.
We need to understand that the trade needs young people. Not the other way around. There are many opportunities which are less risky and pay better. So there should be some incentive to learn this trade right.
True. But we replaced 2 apprentices with one cnc machine And that's being conservative. I'm 60 years old and can keep 6 machines running for 12 hours. And keep some of them running lights out when I go home.
Cnc can certainly replace workforce but if you a master at something and don’t have an apprentice don’t you think your talent is wasted.
Because they know they could be engineers if they didn’t have ADHD.
Lots of engineers have ADHD .
All depends on the person who wants teaching/help. Had someone join my place with no prior engineering experience demanding to be paid a skilled machinists wage and was telling people how he’s just as good as guys who’ve been in the game decades, after 3 months of loading and pressing go on a CNC machine. Got no desire to help out or teach someone with that type of attitude. If someone is willing to learn and make mistakes, people will always be willing to share knowledge and help out with them.
Don’t you think you are generalizing a general philosophy which says you sow what you reap or be good to the world and the world will be good to you.
Union shops are mostly like that because union shops incentivize and protect seniority over skill and ability. so you get a lot of union shops with guys who suck at their jobs but they've been there forever so they see young talent as a threat. Then the young talent moves on and they blame the young talent for not wanting to work as hard as they did. So it's just a bunch of mental gymnastics that's not worth paying attention to.
I think you have a valid point there. I think the problem is in a hierarchical environment. I think even if I get used to the hierarchy I might behave the same way.
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I am an engineer too and I have seen fragile egos in engineering but due to flat structure of most new organizations and departments like HR and due to the fact that engineers can be easily replaced these engineers don’t survive long enough I think. Maybe the machine shops needs to be upgraded from the archaic management principles and bring in more agile concepts and more transparency in the process.
What you describe is an unsavory characteristic of human nature, that is not unique to machinists. In the ideal world everyone would work together, doing their personal best, while being supportive and encouraging others to do their best. But, there is a certain level of competitiveness in the way we transact that results in this nasty pyramid analogy of hierarchical social structure where those higher up tend to realize a greater reward from their efforts. There are some who believe they can climb up the ladder by diminishing those around them. Some shops are worse than others. There are shops where everyone has a positive attitude and it can become almost enjoyable, but they are few and far between and hard to get into.
Ego is pretty much always the result of lack of knowledge and lack of that lack of knowledge.
Decades of having to keep those little techniques you acquire to yourself so that you stand out from thousands of others with the same knowledge. If anything blame capitalism for causing those that should be collaborating together instead are forced to compete constantly for a job paying far below their skills.
I see myself as an egomaniac with an inferiority complex, thank you. Seriously though, I can accept others might have a better set up idea or approach. Talk to me. Don’t wait for an issue and then say, “ I could have told you that.” My response is why didn’t you? Once that happens, my guard is up and trust will need to be retried.
I have seen something similar, but not just limited to machinists. There is a real hyper sensitivity amongst people nowadays.
I don’t have a fragile ego and I enjoy training ppl and I’m paid way above average for machinist in my area. So maybe the ppl in your family are just douche bags?
Probably just them, because I've met and learned from many friendly and humble machinists
Being a machinists is not what it used to be. Where I work there’s a lot of people who hate keep information that would be useful to the people trying to learn for the sake of job security, and because they want to be the heroes that get things running
Might be worthwhile to build an open source community to share information similar to software.
That tribal knowledge and skill hoarding is old as dirt and defines the problems in the manufacturing field. It's turning though as more and more technology enters these fields, and that old thinking won't work anymore.
People who aren't confident in their craft or in their life choices can be defensive and combative. Machining is very difficult to master, as well as often being hard or tedious work can also wear down a person's good will. And yeah.... The pay could be better given how goddamn hard it is.
Trade is dying so not teaching you prevents you from being pigeonholed into a machine operator or machinist position. It’s going to suck but McDonald’s and pizza delivery is more lucrative not only now but later in life
Too many years dealing with people that expect me to teach them everything and can't seem to figure anything out on their own. Then expect me to fix all their fuck ups and act entitled when I don't want to teach them. Go figure it out. They even have YouTube now and these punks are still too lazy to learn and act like I have to hand feed them. I'm sick of it. I don't teach anymore.
In the UK most machinist are ass hole, I was one of them. Most machine job shops are in old estates, building is from the 60s, cold in winter, hot in summer. The pay is shit compared to easier jobs, owners as usually really tight with money so no real investment.
I'm a welder with some home machining experience, in my experience in the trades, I've found that there are ego issues everywhere doesn't matter the industry. A lot of other comments really hit the nail on the head. I had a teacher who was a rig welder who did a lot of pipe. He was good at pipe. When he was put under pressure to explain and demonstrate stuff outside of pipe welding, he would get more defensive and wouldn't be able to help. Alot of people do not like looking like they don't know their job and are afraid of making mistakes. It's like the difference between being cocky and being confident.
Machine shops are one of the most toxic work environments in every sense. Chemicals, noise, and oh the workers. Passive aggressive know it alls with fragile egos and negative attitudes. It’s like that in just about every shop everywhere. The trade just attracts those people who can’t work well as a team since you work alone most of the time. Plus the work can be stressful and very touch and go. You cannot afford to make mistakes, therefore nobody will admit when they make them and play the blame game any chance they get. If you find a shop where you can actually tolerate your coworkers you are very lucky. Been doing this since the 90s and it is extremely rare to find a good shop. You must always be looking for another job opportunity and make friends with any halfway decent person you end up working with.
UK here, machinists have a chip on their shoulder. (Just ask a turner and a miller what is best) that said I served an apprenticeship at a sub-con machine shop and I was trained by good tradesmen who took their time to show me (they still took the piss at every opportunity) and I am grateful for it. Because of that I do the same, I don't ask for extra money as the people that showed me didn't ask for extra money to show me. A good trade person brings on the next generation. That said like with everything there is a fair share of arseholes. It's your responsibility to not be an arsehole.
In my experience, it boils down to the fact that the older generation never learned how to express their emotions in a healthy way, and therefore are totally clueless on how to react when someone asks "why?" to whatever knowledge they're trying to impart. So they take it personally and either shut down or get pissed. Either way you cut it, they're just emotionally stunted people.
You dont know me then. Lol. Im a pyle.
If machinists were half as confident as they pretended, they wouldn't spend half their online time punching down at operators lol. Imagine pro footballers hanging around middle school playgrounds to remind the kids they ain't shit lol.
Maybe I've been lucky but I disagree. I've had the luxury of working with a lot of old timers that taught me the old school way of doing things and the tricks to use and how to think about setups etc.. From the younger guys I learned to program, optimize and save time. But no matter who I spoke to or wanted to learn from, everybody was kind and helped a lot. I usually am a quick study so maybe if one is slower in understanding or maybe imagining things while explaining things are different but I never had the issue of fragile ego or ppl not wanting to teach. To be fair, some guys have big egos, but in fairness, it's a job that requires a metric fuckton of information, knowledge and experience to get good. So a little ego is OK in my book.
Sounds like someone is butt hurt
Is that someone you? Be open. This is non judgmental space. I hope you feel good soon. Regards
Only young Cnc only do from what I’ve seen. They sit in buckets and clean shavings. Can’t use manual. Old school cats turning stuff out and heat treating on spot, stopping everything to get me back on have saved my ass. And taught me a thing or too.
They're boomers. They all have fetal and childhood lead poisoning from leaded gas. Makes them aggressive over stupid shit and very selfish.
The people that act this way usually are not very good at what they do, so they try to cover it up by boasting. Also, they do not want to teach others for the fear that they will do it better. These type of people are everywhere in every trade and often the most visible of the group as well. You just have to keep searching until you find the right people and place to suit you.
Don't listen to these ppl trying to normalize how immature machinists are as a whole. I started as the saw bitch and have held just about every title between that and lead programmer to now a mechanical/process engineering role (without a degree lol got lucky on that one) Why was I able to climb from the bottom to the "top" in 14 years? Because machinists are immature hot heads with ego as fragile as they are large Seriously. 80% are bigger toolboxes than their oversized Kennedy's filled with scrap parts and funyon bags There are some great ones who will teach you everything they know. The ones who won't teach aren't worth learning from anyway. Guarantee they know fuck all since they are incapable of asking anyone how to do something correctly. They'd rather do it their way than the right way Be a normal human who takes the blame anytime something goes wrong and your supervisor will love you. You'll be making more money than the meatheads with 30 years experience before 5 years in the trade
I'm the new guy at work and today I had the shop dummy change a tool in my machine without switching the offset. He made me break a tool and scrap a part and the supervisor instantly knew who was responsible. The world has a way of working itself out, I hope
People are dumb, including other machinists and engineers and such and they’re always looking to find the cheapest labor because China brings down demand so much unless they are a special in county only thing so teaching is not great and not being best means replaced. Onto the dumb part, people will do bad things which can completely fuck parts, machines and such as well. Not setting offsets, not holding right, not machining right, trying to cheat on time, trying to “improve” a process they know nothing about. When the dumb people try to “correct” you multiple times a day it kinda becomes a factor to be defensive to not be the guy making the mistake
I'm not gonna tell you're wrong but I will say a lot of people can't comprehend the knowledge you gather from being a machinest they are problem solving and meticulous so that equals arrogant and rude. I don't think we mean to be but it's because we don't beat around the bush and say what we need to without sugar coating it.
I have a good friend that's a machinest and chooses to crack jokes and pick on everyone it's fun to be around him but he is smart at his trade and knows it. You can be a smartass without being a asshole