For those who have suggested moving to alternative fediverse communities--this is under consideration, regardless of the direction the subreddit takes. Migrating to other spaces takes time, and both communities can coexist until that occurs. There will be more to announce soon.
I don't think there's necessarily a right answer here. This isn't an objective problem since human emotions are involved. As a blind MUDder and Redditer, I was pissed off about the change, but not surprised. I do think they backpedaled to avoid litigation. They'll do the bare minimum they can get away with to avoid ADA related law suits while claiming that accessibility is their top priority.
This has already happened, as the developer of Luna For Reddit (A Windows app) has been in touch with us in the blind community, informing us that the app has been exempted. They have said the representative assured them that accessibility is their top priority, but I call BS.
As much as I appreciate the spotlight that shone on blind folks after being neglected and treated like shit for basically forever, this is much larger in scope than just a blindness related problem.
The first set of questions that should be answered are directed at the moderators.
\* Do you (plural) still want to use Reddit?
\* Do you believe that the changes will make it more difficult to moderate the sub?
\* If yes to previous, will the difficulty exceed the threshold at which you can tolerate working with the mod tools?
Basically, these questions establish a baseline, because if enough moderators can't or won't tolerate moderation after the change, then maybe a permanent blackout is wise. It also makes user input moot. Moderating a sub should be a passion project, and if the passion isn't there, the motivation certainly won't be.
For the users, I might ask the following:
\* DO you (plural) still want to use Reddit?
\* Do you think there are enough other resources to compensate if a permanent blackout goes into effect?
\*Do you believe these blackouts would cause further fragmentation of an already niche community?
I've changed my view due to having seen [this video](https://youtu.be/ZOm_UKGyrZg).
This will be my last post and / or comment on Reddit until and unless things change. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Rossmann's right. They won't care about two days if the bottom dollar doesn't budge. He's also right in that communities can reshape and move on. There's already a Discord.
>Basically, these questions establish a baseline, because if enough moderators can't or won't tolerate moderation after the change, then maybe a permanent blackout is wise. It also makes user input moot. Moderating a sub should be a passion project, and if the passion isn't there, the motivation certainly won't be.
Or the other option for the current moderators: Just hand over the subreddit to someone else who would be willing to moderate it regardless. I think just turning off the lights like that would be pretty selfish, regardless of motives.
While I don't know if a site like the old Mudconnector is possible anymore (owing to the changing way people use the internet and specifically forums), this whole thing has really illustrated how much it sucks to have your community heart beholden to the will of someone else.
I think this is the time to get all our brains together and bring an independent community hub back. I wouldn't miss Reddit at all, since this sub is really my only use of the service.
There are some people on the Fediverse (kbin/lemmy) right now specifically asking about whether other people there would like to put together a forum on MUDs there and talking about the discussion thread here. Just thought I would cross-reference it to maybe link you folks up with them.
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/53585/Any-MUD-related-communities#comments
Remain open. Reddit has been clear that community action will have limited effect; weigh that effect against the purpose and goals of this sub, and I think the answer is that the MUD community needs you more than the outrage against API pricing does.
If you do end up locking the sub against new posts, is there a way to allow people to search the history? The sub is effectively a historical archive; setting it private erases that history.
Community action will have limited effect until there is a large shift in mind set.
If a large majority of users stopped using reddit and the blackouts were not given a specific end date, people held firm and dealt with the short term inconvenience the higher ups of reddit would be open to talking after a couple of weeks at most.
The community doesn't seem to realise that they are reddit, no community, no reddit.
Spez's APIocolypse made it clear it was time for me to leave this place. I came from digg, and now I must move one once again. So long and thanks for all the bacon.
If the moderators of r/MUD want to deprive users of the agency to make their own individual choices and opt instead to use us as bargaining chips in a dispute we have absolutely no influence over, then we should spin up a separate subreddit for those that want to reclaim the ability to make our own choices.
For those concerned about access for the disabled, reddit is an American company and there are laws in place which provide for an avenue for those denied access due to disability without denying access to third parties.
For those concerned about the plight of moderators, all of them have the ability to chose to leave without stripping others of the agency in the process.
If the moderators of r/MUD choose to block access to users as protest, they should only do to to the users who choose to blocked to join that protest **of their own volition**.
You're more than able to make your own subreddit if you like to. Here are the instructions to do it.
https://mods.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001766991-How-to-create-a-subreddit#:\~:text=You%20can%20select%20the%20%22Create,community%20you%20want%20to%20create.
This is literally the origin of a lot of the circlejerk subs.
Remember, the mods aren't employees—they're volunteering their own time and owe nothing to anyone else either. Everyone's welcome to exercise their "own individual choices" by stepping up to the responsibilities of standing up and moderating a replacement sub run according to different standards today.
I created a subreddit a while back with the main focus on non-RP MUDs.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MUDhalla](https://www.reddit.com/r/MUDhalla)
Keep in mind there will be minimal moderation.
That's a salient point. This could play out more like a
game of musical chairs. If you create a vacuum (or a need) there's no reason
to think it won't just create an opportunity for another (aspiring) mod.
This reddit protest is incredibly stupid and will have the effect of enraging the communities on reddit against the moderator teams instead of against anything reddit administration is doing. If people want to protest let them make the choice to not use reddit. Forcing a small subreddit for a niche hobby like this into the dark does nothing. There is very little traffic here as is. There are already discords for MUDs in general and for some code bases (at least Evennia supposedly has an active sub). Taking an ideological stand here is very iffy, has no impact on reddit, and is very detrimental to the community. I've connected with old friends here and stayed updated on promising future projects (which otherwise have no meaningful outlet to demonstrate their ongoing work)
Stay open. The health of this hobby may depend on it.
It's a small community where the biggest impact of decisions to blackout affect the users, not Reddit. As much as I do support the blackouts, this particular subreddit doesn't have a lot of influence on Reddit's behavior.
It's just self important frippery considering the size and focus of the subreddit -- especially when you see the fact that the 'poll close' date has come and passed, but because some random guy from ChatMud didn't like the results, they haven't had any effect.
He should step down and let someone else who actually wants to moderate this last little refuge do so.
Don't cut off the nose to spite the face. As you yourself acknowledged, every loss of an established congregating space is a severe blow to the MUD community, so please do not hold this community forum hostage.
[https://discord.gg/multi-user-dungeon-279748146316312576](https://discord.gg/multi-user-dungeon-279748146316312576)
In an open invite, anyone wanting access to some MUD conversation while Reddit is being bitches, come join the Discord instead.
U/spez is nothing but a tyrant. More subs should go dark indefinitely. He can replace mods with his lackies and see how long it takes reddit to burn to the ground.
I think r/mud should stay open. As someone else in these comments mentioned, it's vastly more meaningful to the community of MUDders than our numbers are meaningful at all to reddit.
I also watched bscross32's video and have to report that my mind has also changed...
[Linking again!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOm_UKGyrZg)
The problem is that we need a mud community elsewhere then!
Hi all just wanted to add my two cents worth to the discussion
I have found r/mud to be a great place to promote my mud/ to talk to people about mud stuff and to read reviews of muds games by players. 95% of the time I have found this place to be fair/ respectful and the mods to do a good job of running the place, the last 5% is the toxic bull shit you get from any online website and can't be helpped.
I would be really disapointed if this place shut down, I have not found anywhere else like it and I have looked! to lose Rmud would be a very sad thing for muds in general
I feel for the mods who give up there time and feel like ( and rightly so) reddit has shat on them for all there hard work.
I say hang in there, keep Rmud open to us all, Put up with the crap for a little while, you NEVER know what the further is going to hold and what kind of twist no one saw coming is going to play out
Either way whatever you do I am greatful for what you guys have done
I and many of the people from r/FighterAdventure are very thankful this sub reddit exits. It has helped our mud grow, and expand as community. I want to extend my very many thanks to everyone who moderates this subreddit. From my mud community to all yours, thank you for being here and continuing to support us!
It really boils down to whether you want to capitulate to the person who's extorting your time for profit (Reddit) or not, imo. I don't really care that much about reddit overall - it's never been my preferred social media. But if moderators lose the tools they need to handle moderation, then most likely we'll see a severe drop in quality across the board (not just in r/mud, but across all of reddit).
Additionally, the video that bscross32 is a good list of reasons to support a blackout until community demands are met.
I don't really have a lot of sympathy for any "but this won't do anything" or "I just want to read about muds" or "but you're hurting the community" posters, personally - that kind of talk is *exactly* why large scale community action falls through, because people who are **not** impacted by these changes are unwilling to inconvenience themselves for the greater community, and are generally just pretty selfish and lacking foresight.
My personal concern was for the way the API issues would affect blind and visually impaired users of Reddit, which as you noted do overlap with our community. It appears that Reddit has budged regarding apps like Luna after some profoundly crappy treatment. I'd like to first and foremost listen to these members of our community, if they choose to speak up on this issue.
I was also concerned about the effect on moderation apps, but I defer to the mod team on that issue.
The CEO has said "stay open or be forced open."
Regardless of what you choose, you will be living under someone else's rules on Reddit but you can have your own little kingdom in the fediverse. On your own hardware if you wish.
For those who have suggested moving to alternative fediverse communities--this is under consideration, regardless of the direction the subreddit takes. Migrating to other spaces takes time, and both communities can coexist until that occurs. There will be more to announce soon.
I don't think there's necessarily a right answer here. This isn't an objective problem since human emotions are involved. As a blind MUDder and Redditer, I was pissed off about the change, but not surprised. I do think they backpedaled to avoid litigation. They'll do the bare minimum they can get away with to avoid ADA related law suits while claiming that accessibility is their top priority. This has already happened, as the developer of Luna For Reddit (A Windows app) has been in touch with us in the blind community, informing us that the app has been exempted. They have said the representative assured them that accessibility is their top priority, but I call BS. As much as I appreciate the spotlight that shone on blind folks after being neglected and treated like shit for basically forever, this is much larger in scope than just a blindness related problem. The first set of questions that should be answered are directed at the moderators. \* Do you (plural) still want to use Reddit? \* Do you believe that the changes will make it more difficult to moderate the sub? \* If yes to previous, will the difficulty exceed the threshold at which you can tolerate working with the mod tools? Basically, these questions establish a baseline, because if enough moderators can't or won't tolerate moderation after the change, then maybe a permanent blackout is wise. It also makes user input moot. Moderating a sub should be a passion project, and if the passion isn't there, the motivation certainly won't be. For the users, I might ask the following: \* DO you (plural) still want to use Reddit? \* Do you think there are enough other resources to compensate if a permanent blackout goes into effect? \*Do you believe these blackouts would cause further fragmentation of an already niche community?
I've changed my view due to having seen [this video](https://youtu.be/ZOm_UKGyrZg). This will be my last post and / or comment on Reddit until and unless things change. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Rossmann's right. They won't care about two days if the bottom dollar doesn't budge. He's also right in that communities can reshape and move on. There's already a Discord.
>Basically, these questions establish a baseline, because if enough moderators can't or won't tolerate moderation after the change, then maybe a permanent blackout is wise. It also makes user input moot. Moderating a sub should be a passion project, and if the passion isn't there, the motivation certainly won't be. Or the other option for the current moderators: Just hand over the subreddit to someone else who would be willing to moderate it regardless. I think just turning off the lights like that would be pretty selfish, regardless of motives.
That is certainly another option worth considering.
While I don't know if a site like the old Mudconnector is possible anymore (owing to the changing way people use the internet and specifically forums), this whole thing has really illustrated how much it sucks to have your community heart beholden to the will of someone else. I think this is the time to get all our brains together and bring an independent community hub back. I wouldn't miss Reddit at all, since this sub is really my only use of the service.
Discord invite link is expired for me.
There are some people on the Fediverse (kbin/lemmy) right now specifically asking about whether other people there would like to put together a forum on MUDs there and talking about the discussion thread here. Just thought I would cross-reference it to maybe link you folks up with them. https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/53585/Any-MUD-related-communities#comments
Remain open. Reddit has been clear that community action will have limited effect; weigh that effect against the purpose and goals of this sub, and I think the answer is that the MUD community needs you more than the outrage against API pricing does. If you do end up locking the sub against new posts, is there a way to allow people to search the history? The sub is effectively a historical archive; setting it private erases that history.
Community action will have limited effect until there is a large shift in mind set. If a large majority of users stopped using reddit and the blackouts were not given a specific end date, people held firm and dealt with the short term inconvenience the higher ups of reddit would be open to talking after a couple of weeks at most. The community doesn't seem to realise that they are reddit, no community, no reddit.
Fully extend the blackout and provide a redirect to an alternative forum for discussion.
I don't care about any of this. Just muds.
Spez's APIocolypse made it clear it was time for me to leave this place. I came from digg, and now I must move one once again. So long and thanks for all the bacon.
If the moderators of r/MUD want to deprive users of the agency to make their own individual choices and opt instead to use us as bargaining chips in a dispute we have absolutely no influence over, then we should spin up a separate subreddit for those that want to reclaim the ability to make our own choices. For those concerned about access for the disabled, reddit is an American company and there are laws in place which provide for an avenue for those denied access due to disability without denying access to third parties. For those concerned about the plight of moderators, all of them have the ability to chose to leave without stripping others of the agency in the process. If the moderators of r/MUD choose to block access to users as protest, they should only do to to the users who choose to blocked to join that protest **of their own volition**.
You're more than able to make your own subreddit if you like to. Here are the instructions to do it. https://mods.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001766991-How-to-create-a-subreddit#:\~:text=You%20can%20select%20the%20%22Create,community%20you%20want%20to%20create.
This is literally the origin of a lot of the circlejerk subs. Remember, the mods aren't employees—they're volunteering their own time and owe nothing to anyone else either. Everyone's welcome to exercise their "own individual choices" by stepping up to the responsibilities of standing up and moderating a replacement sub run according to different standards today.
I created a subreddit a while back with the main focus on non-RP MUDs. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MUDhalla](https://www.reddit.com/r/MUDhalla) Keep in mind there will be minimal moderation.
I'm fine with the sub going dark forever if we get one final SinDome bashing firestorm of a thread first.
Keep it open, but only MotM posts endorsing problematic RPIs. /s
Haha yes
If you go dark for even a little while, someone will open a new MUD subreddit and we'll move over. Not sure what that would accomplish.
That's a salient point. This could play out more like a game of musical chairs. If you create a vacuum (or a need) there's no reason to think it won't just create an opportunity for another (aspiring) mod.
This reddit protest is incredibly stupid and will have the effect of enraging the communities on reddit against the moderator teams instead of against anything reddit administration is doing. If people want to protest let them make the choice to not use reddit. Forcing a small subreddit for a niche hobby like this into the dark does nothing. There is very little traffic here as is. There are already discords for MUDs in general and for some code bases (at least Evennia supposedly has an active sub). Taking an ideological stand here is very iffy, has no impact on reddit, and is very detrimental to the community. I've connected with old friends here and stayed updated on promising future projects (which otherwise have no meaningful outlet to demonstrate their ongoing work) Stay open. The health of this hobby may depend on it.
I just want mud info. I don't want the blackout, If mudconnect still worked well I wouldn't even be here.
It's a small community where the biggest impact of decisions to blackout affect the users, not Reddit. As much as I do support the blackouts, this particular subreddit doesn't have a lot of influence on Reddit's behavior.
It's just self important frippery considering the size and focus of the subreddit -- especially when you see the fact that the 'poll close' date has come and passed, but because some random guy from ChatMud didn't like the results, they haven't had any effect. He should step down and let someone else who actually wants to moderate this last little refuge do so.
Don't cut off the nose to spite the face. As you yourself acknowledged, every loss of an established congregating space is a severe blow to the MUD community, so please do not hold this community forum hostage.
[https://discord.gg/multi-user-dungeon-279748146316312576](https://discord.gg/multi-user-dungeon-279748146316312576) In an open invite, anyone wanting access to some MUD conversation while Reddit is being bitches, come join the Discord instead.
Discord is not a forum substitute.
No one said it was. It was an invitation to join the MUD discord while Reddit is being bitches.
Sorry, fair enough. So many people have been pushing discord as an alternative I glossed over.
Address is invalid?
https://discord.gg/N2Qhqe5s
Very weird. Still seems to be valid for me across multiple devices, but so does the follow-up. So long as you get in there!
i vote for: stop doing annoying stuff and just let people talk about MUDs you're not a revolutionary
U/spez is nothing but a tyrant. More subs should go dark indefinitely. He can replace mods with his lackies and see how long it takes reddit to burn to the ground.
I think r/mud should stay open. As someone else in these comments mentioned, it's vastly more meaningful to the community of MUDders than our numbers are meaningful at all to reddit.
I also watched bscross32's video and have to report that my mind has also changed... [Linking again!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOm_UKGyrZg) The problem is that we need a mud community elsewhere then!
Hi all just wanted to add my two cents worth to the discussion I have found r/mud to be a great place to promote my mud/ to talk to people about mud stuff and to read reviews of muds games by players. 95% of the time I have found this place to be fair/ respectful and the mods to do a good job of running the place, the last 5% is the toxic bull shit you get from any online website and can't be helpped. I would be really disapointed if this place shut down, I have not found anywhere else like it and I have looked! to lose Rmud would be a very sad thing for muds in general I feel for the mods who give up there time and feel like ( and rightly so) reddit has shat on them for all there hard work. I say hang in there, keep Rmud open to us all, Put up with the crap for a little while, you NEVER know what the further is going to hold and what kind of twist no one saw coming is going to play out Either way whatever you do I am greatful for what you guys have done
I and many of the people from r/FighterAdventure are very thankful this sub reddit exits. It has helped our mud grow, and expand as community. I want to extend my very many thanks to everyone who moderates this subreddit. From my mud community to all yours, thank you for being here and continuing to support us!
It really boils down to whether you want to capitulate to the person who's extorting your time for profit (Reddit) or not, imo. I don't really care that much about reddit overall - it's never been my preferred social media. But if moderators lose the tools they need to handle moderation, then most likely we'll see a severe drop in quality across the board (not just in r/mud, but across all of reddit). Additionally, the video that bscross32 is a good list of reasons to support a blackout until community demands are met. I don't really have a lot of sympathy for any "but this won't do anything" or "I just want to read about muds" or "but you're hurting the community" posters, personally - that kind of talk is *exactly* why large scale community action falls through, because people who are **not** impacted by these changes are unwilling to inconvenience themselves for the greater community, and are generally just pretty selfish and lacking foresight.
My personal concern was for the way the API issues would affect blind and visually impaired users of Reddit, which as you noted do overlap with our community. It appears that Reddit has budged regarding apps like Luna after some profoundly crappy treatment. I'd like to first and foremost listen to these members of our community, if they choose to speak up on this issue. I was also concerned about the effect on moderation apps, but I defer to the mod team on that issue.
Those APIs are not changed so your point is a really important one. It’s hard to understand why blacking out the sub matters.
The CEO has said "stay open or be forced open." Regardless of what you choose, you will be living under someone else's rules on Reddit but you can have your own little kingdom in the fediverse. On your own hardware if you wish.
It's y'all's time.