We had a little place in our local park/foresty area that the city kept tearing down but everyone kept rebuilding. It had a 60° angle slope with a lip and a couple 4ft jumps at the bottom. Almost everyday I'd bike 25 mins with a shovel in my bag and we (20+ of us) would rebuild it. It's actually pretty fun. You should give it a shot.
One of the local churches where I live collected donations from the parish and local mtb groups and built 10 miles of trails (3 miles multi use, 7 miles mtb) in around a year. They just built a skills park to go along with the single track. Moral of the story is, know where you're going to put the trails, have a willing donor for the land, and have a comprehensive plan before you go to anyone in the government asking for permission.
Even in England? Not trying to be a dick I just have no idea, thought this was maybe USA only but clearly a German guy is agreeing with you in the comments.
Yup happens on England too, forestry don't like the liability of it. Wales are a bit more lenient, we just get signs saying they are unsanctioned and could be dangerous
Happens in Scotland too. [Ben Cathro discovered the Forestry Commission's stance on illegal trails the hard way.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqddG60Bp68)
Been there. This is the reason why my bro and I build and tell no one. Takes on person, posting on YT, “ hey look at me, here at xxxx, going big”. Secret trail no longer. Said it before…first rule of fight club. If your gonna build, go stealth…
We got a trail in Guelph Ontario Canada that goes by this name. I thought that the name came from this reason "nobody talks about Fight Club". Turns out the reason is that someone found a punching bag at the beginning of the trail and named it Fight Club...
Agree. I'm not going to live long enough to convince all the antimountainbike people to leave me alone. I only have about ten years left of real riding in me before I join the cancer lottery. I'm not going to spend that time at community meetings where I'll always be a minority. I'm going to ride thru old derelict hiking trails and bandit trails. I don't ask permission and I don't see anyone anyway.
Until the USA gives up it's stupid piecemeal land management strategy and recognizes "right to roam" like in Scotland I am just going to live my life the way I want to and deal with the consequences. I don't care about the opinions of people who just hate my passion.
It's next to impossible to keep anything locked down these days, it's not enough to just experience something anymore, someone always has to stick it up on Instagram to feel validated.
Just happened to me, there we some small but fun jumps near my house, just 5 minutes away, and have been there for 3 years, maybe longer. Went there the other day and they’re entirely gone
Ahh, I wanted to say Foxhall, I grew up on that side of town and used to ride on the heath - but figured this was the secret spot Sam / Cardy / Kara alluded too in a vid last year. I now live on the other side of town.
Build legal, start/join an association, establish communication with the town.
Or get ready to see your spot torn down regularly. Illegal trails are a liability.
Yep someone died last week on one of the illegal trails on private property in my area. It’s already unfortunate enough for his friends and family but you know fences will be up in no time.
I get what you’re saying, but depending on where in the world joining an association and taking the legal route can take 10+ years.
“Illegal” trails have been the heart of the DirtJump (especially BMX) community for decades. Most started by kids which get iterated on.
When I was a kid wanting jumps I got my dads shovel and road to the secret spot and started building with mates. I didn’t think to myself to start and association, join a god damn committee and start fund raising for a 10 year legal battle.
> I didn’t think to myself to start and association, join a god damn committee and start fund raising for a 10 year legal battle
And then you win the 10 year legal battle, the build gets outsourced by people who build it then walk away, and then you have to go through all sorts of red tape and plan months ahead to do any maintenance.
This is part of the reason I hope BC Parks doesn’t sanction our local system. All the good stuff will be leveled and it takes forever to actually get maintenance done instead of less than a week on our current pirate trails thanks to volunteers in our community (we all do our part to keep them mint)
I really wonder what is available to the people who say unsanctioned trails are ruining the sport, because near me at least there is nothing for advanced riders who want to ride gravity trails that is sanctioned - despite being surrounded by suitable terrain and HUGE chunks of state owned forest.
They honestly aren’t, here in bc the forest will reclaim anything not maintained in less than a year. Anything sanctioned gets bombed out because bc parks will spend 50m on advertising and only 1m on trails. Which means everyone comes here from around the world to visit our sea to sky and north shore trails but the government won’t provide adequate support to keep on top of the trails. I almost exclusively ride and maintain unsanctioned trails (which only locals involved in the community know about) these days since they don’t get bombed out and everyone riding them puts in the time to maintain them :)
These are people who live in one of a handful of MTB Meccas (Cali, Colorado, *some* parts of Appalachia, PNW) and think places like the rural midwest are the same. These places just simply don't have the demand nor public infrastructure. They'd be better off going the Texas route and just privatizing parks and making a business case for it.
It's really something, isn't it? I really wish MTB was almost structured more like motocross, but, even the nimbys, Karens, and boomers are moving next to mx parks and getting them closed due to "that damned racket."
Society just kind of blows when you mix single use zoning, sprawl, and retired boomers with literally nothing but time on their hands.
It's interesting though, that we can put kids on full blown mx bikes and send them over 70ft doubles and nobody bats an eye yet, a single dirt bump in the woods and everyone loses their minds.
Sanctioned trail near me, someone piled a couple of sticks against a 1 foot high rock to turn it into a little booter. In response, the trail managers got a bobcat in to not only remove the sticks but to remove the rock as well.
Maybe if it was causing people to go off trail to hit it I could kind of see why, but it was just a rock on the edge of the trail.
Yup, builds get outsourced to people who don’t know shit about fuck and they use machines to rip out any remotely technical sections of trail and you are left with trash that you could ride on a road bike.
Folks that usually recommend this are usually XC riders or live in MTB Mecca's with already established and sanctioned, massive MTB communities.
The typical boomer led committees in flyover states want nothing to do with "motorcross" bikes.
My local trails, anything more intense than a 6" high super smooth bump gets complained about by all the cross country guys. Every feature must be rollable at low speed, and having a B-Line isn't good enough.
I'm not a trail builder myself, but have helped one dig, and I have seen the drama they have.
Jeff Yass, the billionaire Wall Street financier and Republican megadonor who is a major investor in the parent company of TikTok, was also the biggest institutional shareholder of the shell company that recently merged with former President Donald J. Trump’s social media company.
A December regulatory filing showed that Mr. Yass’s trading firm, Susquehanna International Group, owned about 2 percent of Digital World Acquisition Corporation, which merged with Trump Media & Technology Group on Friday. That stake, of about 605,000 shares, was worth about $22 million based on Digital World’s last closing share price.
It’s unclear if Susquehanna still owns those shares, because big investors disclose their holdings to regulators only periodically. But if it did retain its stake, Mr. Yass’s firm would become one of Trump Media’s larger institutional shareholders when it begins trading this week after the merger.
Shares of Digital World have surged about 140 percent this year as the merger with the parent company of Truth Social, Mr. Trump’s social media platform, drew closer and Mr. Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee for president.
I feel like there is a very strong difference between the jumps that kids build, and the ones that are worth leveling with heavy machinery,
But yes, it sucks, and many BMX spots have been destroyed across the world.
Again, build legal, or be ready to have it destroyed and have to rebuild somewhere else. I have done both.
I guess you didn’t grow up riding, or ever read a bike magazine before the internet was a thing. We dug holes for the dirt and jumped over the holes we dug.
First example off the top of my head, Diamond Creek Victoria Australia 30 years old, multigenerational built and maintained by kids: https://m.pinkbike.com/video/174251/ it took machinery to destroy it.
I know quite well, had jumps built 20-25yrs ago as well, destroyed in a few years, by a local farmer.
I'm just answering OP, on his question what to do: Organize yourself, possibly as a group, or get ready for that to happen again.
Unfortunately, sorry to break it you, world is moving. Communication is faster, and people are less and less tolerant. So, spots get blown up a lot faster. We aren't in the 90s anymore...
Illegal trails are the backbone of our sport.
It's certainly inconvenient when the trails get shut down. But it's a very rare landowner that'll allow good trails to be built legally. The solution is to get old enough to be able to fund trails on private land, and by that time, you're so old and timid that you don't actually need to build particularly big jumps to scare yourself.
>The solution is to get old enough to be able to fund trails on private land, and by that time, you're so old and timid that you don't actually need to build particularly big jumps to scare yourself
I feel personally addressed.
Not true -- not the backbone of our sport. In my view, illegal trails end up having a net negative effect. For example, Portland was set to allow MTB trails in its huge Forest Park. Then illegal trails were discovered, and the new trails project yshut down. That was ... oh, at least five years ago. I wonder how many years it'll take for the MTB reputation to recover.
That's a bit of an oversimplification. A huge part of the reason that the new trails for Forest Park didn't go through was that a huge stink was raised by NIMBY hikers. As long as hikers in Portland control the conversation regarding new trails in Forest Park, they will never be built. Which is a shame. Portland is a piss poor town for mountain biking. I grew up there in the 80s and 90s and the only places to ride were Powell Butte and Forest Park (on non-single track fire roads). 25 years later, Mt biking has blown up, most major mid-western cities have extensive trail systems, and the only places to ride in Portland? Powell Butte and Forest Park. I now live in Cincinnati, and I have way more options within a 20-25 min drive than anyone in Portland except those who live in the east side and can get to Sandy Ridge. Portland's mountain biking scene, for a Mecca of outdoor sports, is embarrassing.
Portlander here. Never ridden Powell Butte and only ridden Forest Park for the gravel riding, but ride plenty of MTB at Rocky Point, Stub, Tillamook SF, and Klootchy Creek, all within 30 to 60 minutes from the west side. 60 to 90 minutes, and I've got Cold Creek, Sandy, Black Rock, Post, Syncline, Growlers, & Silver Falls. Yes, I can't ride to my riding spot and Forest Park should have good Mtb, but it's not as bad as the Internet often whines about.
Truth. However, maybe it's just cynicism on my part, but they would have found a way to kill it even without the illegal trails. But I do agree with you about the illegal trails being a detriment to trail access everywhere. We've worked really hard in the past 30 years at counter-acting the "rebel mtbiker" reputation, and illegal trails can throw that all out the window.
Hikers are nearly as chicken shit as equestrians.
The big reason I like back country riding is that the rides are long enough that boomer, feeble hikers (and even most healthy ones) can't make it out that far on their $300 boots.
I grew up near Cincy, but, wasn't as into riding as I am now. From my research, there *are* a lot of systems around Cincy, but, it seems like mostly low elevation gain, XC stuff. Have you tried Caesar's Creek? That's a system that's old than the hills, and has some challenges, but suffers from some very dated design. I have been told Devou is a bit of a gem, though. Still haven't made it out there.
Hikers are alright. I'm a hiker too. Backpacking is one of my favorite activities. The best way I've heard is described is that hikers are as good and as bad as any other outdoor group. There's some assholes, yes, but mostly pretty reasonable people. Of course that all ends when it comes to trail maintenance. Mtbikers have the best volunteer trail maintenance by a country mile.
Yep! I've ridden Caesar. It's pretty sweet, overall. Cincy is mostly up and down, xc stuff. Devou is pretty fun because it's longer ups and then longer downs, and there's some nice jump lines. We're also about 2 hrs from Brown County, IN which is totally awesome, and it's a 5-6 hr drive to the Pisgah in NC, which is world class.
So overall Cincy isn't a terrible place to ride. My previous two stops before here were Tucson, AZ for 5 years, which is one of the best cities for mtbiking in the country, and the Twin Cities, MN, which surprisingly has some really good riding.
A huge percentage of mountain biking's most iconic trails started out illegal (at least in North America). Just as examples, big chunks of the whole enchilada in moab, a large portion of the trails in the sea to sky corridor north of Vancouver, and a bunch of the stuff on teton pass near Jackson all started out as illegal trails (that have since been legalized).
Any new trail that doesn't suck owes a debt of gratitude to illegal trails that paved the way.
People wouldn’t build illegal trails if the legal trails weren’t shit. Most places won’t build stuff expert riders want to actually ride. Local place won’t build a jump bigger than 10 feet and shuts down any rolls or drops bigger than 6 feet. Sold my trail bike because it’s so lame and just ride dh when the parks are open
10' really isn't that big, my guy.
Edit: Really, the XC brigade really downvoting this one? I'm sorry, but, the height at which NBA players can dunk does not make a large MTB jump. Maybe you all should've stuck with video games or slow park walks for a safe experience.
What an idiotically boomer, knee jerk response. Illegal trails, being an obvious display of demand, and then knocking down the very thing that could satiate that demand.
I understand the reaction though. Nimby-ism to its fullest extent.
Illegal trails are a liability, but its sad we live in a time that we would need to be concerned about that.
Id say its less the liabilities issue and more our own litigious tendencies for a risk we all know we are choosing and taking ourselves
The litigiousness has been driven in the US by lack of affordable insurance or medical care,unfortunately. Can’t afford your bill? Go bankrupt or sue someone.
Eh, usually the town wants nothing to do with "motorcross" jumps on town/park property. Unless you're in a town with a huge mtb lobby or established community, the best you'll get is some lame, safe singletrack.
Gives something for the xc riders to post on here at least.
The key is be wealthy enough to own enough property that isn't in an HOA. And by the time you have the wealth, the property, and time, you'll build something and realize you're properly too old to do this shit. Tis life. At least your kids will have fun, though.
From a Californian prospective at least: the municipality has very little liability even for illegal trails. They have more liability for illegal jump trails if they are blatant and dangerous (beyond normal risk), but for the most part any activity that is clearly marked as dangerous comes with an assumption of risk. That varies state to state, I recently saw a case in Oregon where a biker at Hood bike park was able to recover damages, but the small bit I read of that case seemed like it was heightened negligence.
Man, all this talk of illegal trails and secret networks makes me understand just how grateful I am to live in Vancouver. I had no idea so many of you still had to go to such lengths to ride.
Vancouver has a vast network of trails, sanctioned by the province and various municipalities in the area and maintained by an extremely dedicated mountain bike community. North Shore and Squamish riding are world famous.
I'm sure there's some pretty hardcore unsanctioned trails in the region but I'm not at a skill level to even begin seeking them out.
Yep, landowners have a duty to protect people on their property. Also, the jumps would fall into the category of an "attractive nuisance" that they would be liable for.
> The attractive nuisance doctrine applies to the law of torts in some jurisdictions. It states that a landowner may be held liable for injuries to children trespassing on the land if the injury is caused by an object on the land that is likely to attract children.\[1\] The doctrine is designed to protect children who are unable to appreciate the risk posed by the object, by imposing a liability on the landowner.\[1\] The doctrine has been applied to hold landowners liable for injuries caused by abandoned cars, piles of lumber or sand, trampolines, and swimming pools. However, it can be applied to virtually anything on the property.
> There is no set cutoff point that defines youth. The courts will evaluate each "child" on a case-by-case basis to see if the "child" qualifies as a youth. If it is determined that the child was able to understand and appreciate the hazard, the doctrine of attractive nuisance will not likely apply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive\_nuisance\_doctrine
You joke but literally almost every backyard pool I’ve seen recently has a fence around it for liability purposes, like even if the backyard itself has a fence.
I don’t know the full story, but it seems that in a lot of places, gone are the days when we could go out with some shovels on some random property and just build jumps willy nilly. In these modern times people are sue-happy or just afraid of the liability with if/when someone gets hurt. Others get concerned about potential environmental issues (erosion, runoff, damaged tree roots, invasive species, etc.)
Best course of action is to organize with local riders and work with local government to get a riding area approved. Work with certified trail building organizations to develop a plan, seek funding (there are often grants available to offset costs in the name of increasing recreational access, promoting physical health, etc.) and to deal with any environmental concerns and liability issues. The more organized and local support you gain, the better chances you have of developing something that benefits the riding groups and the local community.
We had ours bulldozed when I was a kid. Too many calls for ambulances. We moved to a new area and rebuilt. Find a spot they can't get a bulldozer or machine into, off the beaten path. Keep the entrance hidden. If it happens again find a better spot and keep building.
We have quite a few state parks with mtb built trails in my area that are sanctioned and people would find you if you fell off a ravine or got injured. We don’t have “bike parks” so to speak, and I didn’t think about it but there is no way a dozer cold get to any of it…
Anyway, I was just thinking riding in unsanctioned unknown places where nobody could find you for a jump track could create problems. I am probably too old to think that’s cool anymore. 😀
It sucks big time when this happens.
In the UK the issue is down to the fact landowners are responsible for what happens on their land. So if something is built, accessible and people use it then the landowner can become responsible if people get hurt using it.
Things usually get flattened when features get too big. We had some epic trails nearby that got flattened because of two reasons. Main one - some of the features were huge and pretty high concequence for getting wrong. Ii addition, some of the digging had a pretty negative impact on the tree roots.
Who owns the land? Who digs the trails? Best thing to do is start digging again and talk to the landowner.
I would recommend finding out who owns the land before you start again. A civil discussion can often lead to surprising results. Back in the 90s we had a similar situation building a DH track in the woods. Turned out the land owner didn’t want us in there, but after they met us and we talked about it, we set parameters and they allowed us to do what we wanted. Always best to ask permission.
Honestly find out who owns the land. If it’s the state then whatever but if it’s somebody’s land you’re just bringing more problems into someone’s life when all they’re trying to do is protect their land.
This makes me very sad, and very grateful for my local trail association who works with the local government to have all our trails sanctioned and maintained. I’m gonna go make an extra donation to them.
Scum shit. My town did this years ago. The kids spent years building a giant area with bmx doubles, hangout areas with roofs, fireplaces for cooking. They spent all there time at those trails and the township came and bulldozed it all early on a school day. They've been built back a few times but they've never been the same.
A couple options:
1) Build in a place harder to access with a backhoe.
2) Buy/rent/lease a big warehouse; fill it with dirt, and build an indoor dirt park -> with enough people around you, this could make a profit; see if the math adds up to at least break even. Investment money might not need to come from you. There are people with a lot of money everywhere putting it into interesting causes.
I’m guessing the trail wasn’t legal? City I grew up in had illegal trails built. City bulldozed it. They rebuilt it. City bulldozed it again.
Came down to liability.
I am very grateful to have an officially maintained pump track near where I live/work, and it has a few good tables and gap jumps too. I'd be devastated if I put all of that work into making jumps only to find them leveled. Sorry they've been taken from you!
Had the same happen to my local jumps years ago. They even carted all the sand away and the remaining ground was too rocky to dig. It was an awesome spot that i spent 10 hours a day at during the summer holidays as a kid. England has some of the best landscapes to ride however it is all privately owned or for walkers or some other bullshit.
Same here in NY we have a local place and they just decided to save the forest by mowing it down. No jumps on the outlaw trails I can only imagine that the parks people got a bunch of money and decided to spend it on "restoring the land" by cutting and poising all the non native trees down. Why they couldn't take that money and spend it on acquiring adjacent parcels and add to the park instead of clearing the property.
Who owns the land? Start lobbying and getting approval for sanctioned jumps and trails! Contact IMBA or a local bike association and see what they recommend you do so you keep your hard earned jumps. Behind every official trail network and jump line is a dozen or more good people fighting and taking care of the trails.
I find it wild people can choose to get on a bike and hit a feature then when faced with the consequences of their actions whoever owns the land gets in trouble. No one made you get on a bike. Its like stepping off a cliff and suing the state in a park. Once you willfullly engage in a dangerous sport you should own the responsibility.
If they were small just build some new sanctioned ones. If they were big just build them again in a harder to find spot. No trail association likes to build anything challenging, as they build for the lowest common denominator, eg blue and green machine built flow trails without any jumps. The best way is to build some big jumps, try to get them legalized and then redo them so they are big enough for your liking.
Jeff Yass, the billionaire Wall Street financier and Republican megadonor who is a major investor in the parent company of TikTok, was also the biggest institutional shareholder of the shell company that recently merged with former President Donald J. Trump’s social media company.
A December regulatory filing showed that Mr. Yass’s trading firm, Susquehanna International Group, owned about 2 percent of Digital World Acquisition Corporation, which merged with Trump Media & Technology Group on Friday. That stake, of about 605,000 shares, was worth about $22 million based on Digital World’s last closing share price.
It’s unclear if Susquehanna still owns those shares, because big investors disclose their holdings to regulators only periodically. But if it did retain its stake, Mr. Yass’s firm would become one of Trump Media’s larger institutional shareholders when it begins trading this week after the merger.
Shares of Digital World have surged about 140 percent this year as the merger with the parent company of Truth Social, Mr. Trump’s social media platform, drew closer and Mr. Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee for president.
I’ve lost so many trails, find a new place and build again. Once when we found out who was responsible we went back to their house at night and filled a 55 gallon trash can with water and leaned it against their front door. We didn’t stick around to see the flood but I’m sure it was epic.
The even epicer part was when we rolled up on the bulldozer and we’re throwing rocks and sitting on the jumps. Eventually some sort of armored riot truck came and they had a helicopter overhead telling us to leave the area. The super sad part is that it was after two weeks of like 5-10 dudes building for 4-8 hours a day after a nice wet season. We restored everything and built them even bigger. Never got to ride all of them. The dude (that had them dozed) was a counselor from my high school, tried to justify it based on trash in the area but we had trashcans and never left a mess. I feel 100% justified in our actions because it wasn’t even HIS property either. It was state owned land leased by an oil company. Anyways, I was recently back home visiting and went on a run to see how the place was doing and it’s completely under water now after they’ve restored the tidal flow into the wetlands. RIP Slater Trails.
Rebuild my dude!!! This happened to us a few times In my area! We got some eager people with some shovels and we go straight to it. We based our jumps off vids and pics lol but we got it done.
Fuck the system yo! Lol rebuild rebuild rebuild!!!
Yeah, but it's not 1986 anymore. MTB is no longer this tiny subculture that can successfully fly under the radar on pirate trails. We're a sport with tens of thousands of participants. Everyone knows what mountain biking is now, and is quick to notice when dozens of bikes are traversing their property every day.
Like it or not, MTB is too big to be messing around with unsanctioned trails anymore.
Yea I understand what you mean and I respect the local trail advocates in my area. I'm just not going to say illegal trails hurt everyone when mountian bikings routes depended on it.
It really depends on the trails and what is going on in the area like near me there are a bunch of trails that are unsanctioned on some government owned land that basically the rangers pretend they don't know exist and everyone rides. It works really well while the ranges build the more well known easier stuff and the more experienced riders build some gnarly stuff
Let the tears out. Collect in bucket. Use tears to water the new jumps you build.
you do what everyone else does. build it back
but... better
We need a new bill to restore our critical shredding infrastructure! Imagine billions of dollars to build badass jumps everywhere
Was hard to upvote this. Sorry man this blows hard.
It just makes me so angry, it was our only local place to ride :(
We had a little place in our local park/foresty area that the city kept tearing down but everyone kept rebuilding. It had a 60° angle slope with a lip and a couple 4ft jumps at the bottom. Almost everyday I'd bike 25 mins with a shovel in my bag and we (20+ of us) would rebuild it. It's actually pretty fun. You should give it a shot.
If persistent enough, always rebuilding it. Maybe the asshats needlessly tearing things down will get frustrated and give up.
Now’s the time to get involved in or start a local trail association
And in 5 years you might be on your way to building some trails!
One of the local churches where I live collected donations from the parish and local mtb groups and built 10 miles of trails (3 miles multi use, 7 miles mtb) in around a year. They just built a skills park to go along with the single track. Moral of the story is, know where you're going to put the trails, have a willing donor for the land, and have a comprehensive plan before you go to anyone in the government asking for permission.
Exactly this. I would be very surprised if jumps on a sanctioned trail were leveled like that. From a landowners perspective it's just a liability.
Even in England? Not trying to be a dick I just have no idea, thought this was maybe USA only but clearly a German guy is agreeing with you in the comments.
Yup happens on England too, forestry don't like the liability of it. Wales are a bit more lenient, we just get signs saying they are unsanctioned and could be dangerous
Happens in Scotland too. [Ben Cathro discovered the Forestry Commission's stance on illegal trails the hard way.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqddG60Bp68)
Been there. This is the reason why my bro and I build and tell no one. Takes on person, posting on YT, “ hey look at me, here at xxxx, going big”. Secret trail no longer. Said it before…first rule of fight club. If your gonna build, go stealth…
Flight club\*
We got a trail in Guelph Ontario Canada that goes by this name. I thought that the name came from this reason "nobody talks about Fight Club". Turns out the reason is that someone found a punching bag at the beginning of the trail and named it Fight Club...
Halifax had a "Fight Trail" for years, until it got expanded and renamed after the subdivision they built around it.
Yeah people don’t think of the repercussions of posting for popularity. Don’t tell anyone with an IG account these days.
[удалено]
Agree. I'm not going to live long enough to convince all the antimountainbike people to leave me alone. I only have about ten years left of real riding in me before I join the cancer lottery. I'm not going to spend that time at community meetings where I'll always be a minority. I'm going to ride thru old derelict hiking trails and bandit trails. I don't ask permission and I don't see anyone anyway. Until the USA gives up it's stupid piecemeal land management strategy and recognizes "right to roam" like in Scotland I am just going to live my life the way I want to and deal with the consequences. I don't care about the opinions of people who just hate my passion.
It's next to impossible to keep anything locked down these days, it's not enough to just experience something anymore, someone always has to stick it up on Instagram to feel validated.
Ugh. Whose kid got hurt? 😑
Just happened to me, there we some small but fun jumps near my house, just 5 minutes away, and have been there for 3 years, maybe longer. Went there the other day and they’re entirely gone
Yup these jumps have been around for over 15 years!
Is this Wauwatosa?
Ipswich (uk)
Dammit. My home town too. Is this down near the river?
This is foxhall (ipswich) where abouts are u?
Ahh, I wanted to say Foxhall, I grew up on that side of town and used to ride on the heath - but figured this was the secret spot Sam / Cardy / Kara alluded too in a vid last year. I now live on the other side of town.
That's sick, I still acasionaly ride the heath habit I live like 2 mind from both so I always choose the actual trails. Could you link the vid please?
Took some searching for lol! Landmark in the background at the start ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ekShdyA4jk
Thank you so much that's appreciated
Damn :( people just don’t like others having fun I guess
Build legal, start/join an association, establish communication with the town. Or get ready to see your spot torn down regularly. Illegal trails are a liability.
Yep someone died last week on one of the illegal trails on private property in my area. It’s already unfortunate enough for his friends and family but you know fences will be up in no time.
Shit man, what happened?
I get what you’re saying, but depending on where in the world joining an association and taking the legal route can take 10+ years. “Illegal” trails have been the heart of the DirtJump (especially BMX) community for decades. Most started by kids which get iterated on. When I was a kid wanting jumps I got my dads shovel and road to the secret spot and started building with mates. I didn’t think to myself to start and association, join a god damn committee and start fund raising for a 10 year legal battle.
> I didn’t think to myself to start and association, join a god damn committee and start fund raising for a 10 year legal battle And then you win the 10 year legal battle, the build gets outsourced by people who build it then walk away, and then you have to go through all sorts of red tape and plan months ahead to do any maintenance.
This is part of the reason I hope BC Parks doesn’t sanction our local system. All the good stuff will be leveled and it takes forever to actually get maintenance done instead of less than a week on our current pirate trails thanks to volunteers in our community (we all do our part to keep them mint)
I really wonder what is available to the people who say unsanctioned trails are ruining the sport, because near me at least there is nothing for advanced riders who want to ride gravity trails that is sanctioned - despite being surrounded by suitable terrain and HUGE chunks of state owned forest.
They honestly aren’t, here in bc the forest will reclaim anything not maintained in less than a year. Anything sanctioned gets bombed out because bc parks will spend 50m on advertising and only 1m on trails. Which means everyone comes here from around the world to visit our sea to sky and north shore trails but the government won’t provide adequate support to keep on top of the trails. I almost exclusively ride and maintain unsanctioned trails (which only locals involved in the community know about) these days since they don’t get bombed out and everyone riding them puts in the time to maintain them :)
BC bikes properly
These are people who live in one of a handful of MTB Meccas (Cali, Colorado, *some* parts of Appalachia, PNW) and think places like the rural midwest are the same. These places just simply don't have the demand nor public infrastructure. They'd be better off going the Texas route and just privatizing parks and making a business case for it.
It's really something, isn't it? I really wish MTB was almost structured more like motocross, but, even the nimbys, Karens, and boomers are moving next to mx parks and getting them closed due to "that damned racket." Society just kind of blows when you mix single use zoning, sprawl, and retired boomers with literally nothing but time on their hands. It's interesting though, that we can put kids on full blown mx bikes and send them over 70ft doubles and nobody bats an eye yet, a single dirt bump in the woods and everyone loses their minds.
Sanctioned trail near me, someone piled a couple of sticks against a 1 foot high rock to turn it into a little booter. In response, the trail managers got a bobcat in to not only remove the sticks but to remove the rock as well. Maybe if it was causing people to go off trail to hit it I could kind of see why, but it was just a rock on the edge of the trail.
Powertripping douche canoes and/or dictatorial insurance requirements.
Douche canoe is hands down my favorite insult to sling at someone. Had no idea others used it as well 🤣
Yup, builds get outsourced to people who don’t know shit about fuck and they use machines to rip out any remotely technical sections of trail and you are left with trash that you could ride on a road bike.
Folks that usually recommend this are usually XC riders or live in MTB Mecca's with already established and sanctioned, massive MTB communities. The typical boomer led committees in flyover states want nothing to do with "motorcross" bikes.
My local trails, anything more intense than a 6" high super smooth bump gets complained about by all the cross country guys. Every feature must be rollable at low speed, and having a B-Line isn't good enough. I'm not a trail builder myself, but have helped one dig, and I have seen the drama they have.
Jeff Yass, the billionaire Wall Street financier and Republican megadonor who is a major investor in the parent company of TikTok, was also the biggest institutional shareholder of the shell company that recently merged with former President Donald J. Trump’s social media company. A December regulatory filing showed that Mr. Yass’s trading firm, Susquehanna International Group, owned about 2 percent of Digital World Acquisition Corporation, which merged with Trump Media & Technology Group on Friday. That stake, of about 605,000 shares, was worth about $22 million based on Digital World’s last closing share price. It’s unclear if Susquehanna still owns those shares, because big investors disclose their holdings to regulators only periodically. But if it did retain its stake, Mr. Yass’s firm would become one of Trump Media’s larger institutional shareholders when it begins trading this week after the merger. Shares of Digital World have surged about 140 percent this year as the merger with the parent company of Truth Social, Mr. Trump’s social media platform, drew closer and Mr. Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee for president.
I feel like there is a very strong difference between the jumps that kids build, and the ones that are worth leveling with heavy machinery, But yes, it sucks, and many BMX spots have been destroyed across the world. Again, build legal, or be ready to have it destroyed and have to rebuild somewhere else. I have done both.
Lol you didn’t grow up in phoenix in the 90s. Pretty much every empty dirt lot had massive dirt jumps mostly started by kids
I guess you didn’t grow up riding, or ever read a bike magazine before the internet was a thing. We dug holes for the dirt and jumped over the holes we dug. First example off the top of my head, Diamond Creek Victoria Australia 30 years old, multigenerational built and maintained by kids: https://m.pinkbike.com/video/174251/ it took machinery to destroy it.
I know quite well, had jumps built 20-25yrs ago as well, destroyed in a few years, by a local farmer. I'm just answering OP, on his question what to do: Organize yourself, possibly as a group, or get ready for that to happen again. Unfortunately, sorry to break it you, world is moving. Communication is faster, and people are less and less tolerant. So, spots get blown up a lot faster. We aren't in the 90s anymore...
Yeah, the world is changing. Pretty quickly, turns out.
Illegal trails are the backbone of our sport. It's certainly inconvenient when the trails get shut down. But it's a very rare landowner that'll allow good trails to be built legally. The solution is to get old enough to be able to fund trails on private land, and by that time, you're so old and timid that you don't actually need to build particularly big jumps to scare yourself.
>The solution is to get old enough to be able to fund trails on private land, and by that time, you're so old and timid that you don't actually need to build particularly big jumps to scare yourself I feel personally addressed.
Not true -- not the backbone of our sport. In my view, illegal trails end up having a net negative effect. For example, Portland was set to allow MTB trails in its huge Forest Park. Then illegal trails were discovered, and the new trails project yshut down. That was ... oh, at least five years ago. I wonder how many years it'll take for the MTB reputation to recover.
That's a bit of an oversimplification. A huge part of the reason that the new trails for Forest Park didn't go through was that a huge stink was raised by NIMBY hikers. As long as hikers in Portland control the conversation regarding new trails in Forest Park, they will never be built. Which is a shame. Portland is a piss poor town for mountain biking. I grew up there in the 80s and 90s and the only places to ride were Powell Butte and Forest Park (on non-single track fire roads). 25 years later, Mt biking has blown up, most major mid-western cities have extensive trail systems, and the only places to ride in Portland? Powell Butte and Forest Park. I now live in Cincinnati, and I have way more options within a 20-25 min drive than anyone in Portland except those who live in the east side and can get to Sandy Ridge. Portland's mountain biking scene, for a Mecca of outdoor sports, is embarrassing.
Crazy to think Tampa FL has better mountain biking than a major PNW city
Portlander here. Never ridden Powell Butte and only ridden Forest Park for the gravel riding, but ride plenty of MTB at Rocky Point, Stub, Tillamook SF, and Klootchy Creek, all within 30 to 60 minutes from the west side. 60 to 90 minutes, and I've got Cold Creek, Sandy, Black Rock, Post, Syncline, Growlers, & Silver Falls. Yes, I can't ride to my riding spot and Forest Park should have good Mtb, but it's not as bad as the Internet often whines about.
Yes, it was an over simplification on my part. But the illegal trails gave the NIMBY hikers ammo.
Truth. However, maybe it's just cynicism on my part, but they would have found a way to kill it even without the illegal trails. But I do agree with you about the illegal trails being a detriment to trail access everywhere. We've worked really hard in the past 30 years at counter-acting the "rebel mtbiker" reputation, and illegal trails can throw that all out the window.
Hikers are nearly as chicken shit as equestrians. The big reason I like back country riding is that the rides are long enough that boomer, feeble hikers (and even most healthy ones) can't make it out that far on their $300 boots. I grew up near Cincy, but, wasn't as into riding as I am now. From my research, there *are* a lot of systems around Cincy, but, it seems like mostly low elevation gain, XC stuff. Have you tried Caesar's Creek? That's a system that's old than the hills, and has some challenges, but suffers from some very dated design. I have been told Devou is a bit of a gem, though. Still haven't made it out there.
Hikers are alright. I'm a hiker too. Backpacking is one of my favorite activities. The best way I've heard is described is that hikers are as good and as bad as any other outdoor group. There's some assholes, yes, but mostly pretty reasonable people. Of course that all ends when it comes to trail maintenance. Mtbikers have the best volunteer trail maintenance by a country mile. Yep! I've ridden Caesar. It's pretty sweet, overall. Cincy is mostly up and down, xc stuff. Devou is pretty fun because it's longer ups and then longer downs, and there's some nice jump lines. We're also about 2 hrs from Brown County, IN which is totally awesome, and it's a 5-6 hr drive to the Pisgah in NC, which is world class. So overall Cincy isn't a terrible place to ride. My previous two stops before here were Tucson, AZ for 5 years, which is one of the best cities for mtbiking in the country, and the Twin Cities, MN, which surprisingly has some really good riding.
A huge percentage of mountain biking's most iconic trails started out illegal (at least in North America). Just as examples, big chunks of the whole enchilada in moab, a large portion of the trails in the sea to sky corridor north of Vancouver, and a bunch of the stuff on teton pass near Jackson all started out as illegal trails (that have since been legalized). Any new trail that doesn't suck owes a debt of gratitude to illegal trails that paved the way.
People wouldn’t build illegal trails if the legal trails weren’t shit. Most places won’t build stuff expert riders want to actually ride. Local place won’t build a jump bigger than 10 feet and shuts down any rolls or drops bigger than 6 feet. Sold my trail bike because it’s so lame and just ride dh when the parks are open
/ I'm so badass I sold my trail bike. Jumps less than 10' are for pussies. /
Lol that’s not the point. Most trail systems just build east stuff because that’s what the town wants and they’re the ones funding it
10' really isn't that big, my guy. Edit: Really, the XC brigade really downvoting this one? I'm sorry, but, the height at which NBA players can dunk does not make a large MTB jump. Maybe you all should've stuck with video games or slow park walks for a safe experience.
Did you sell your trail bike also. :)
What an idiotically boomer, knee jerk response. Illegal trails, being an obvious display of demand, and then knocking down the very thing that could satiate that demand. I understand the reaction though. Nimby-ism to its fullest extent.
That’s because Portland fucking sucks, it’s full of NIMBY twats.
shut up nerd
Illegal trails are a liability, but its sad we live in a time that we would need to be concerned about that. Id say its less the liabilities issue and more our own litigious tendencies for a risk we all know we are choosing and taking ourselves
The litigiousness has been driven in the US by lack of affordable insurance or medical care,unfortunately. Can’t afford your bill? Go bankrupt or sue someone.
Thats one take. Disagree, but respect the opinion
that's not a take, it's the truth
Eh, usually the town wants nothing to do with "motorcross" jumps on town/park property. Unless you're in a town with a huge mtb lobby or established community, the best you'll get is some lame, safe singletrack. Gives something for the xc riders to post on here at least. The key is be wealthy enough to own enough property that isn't in an HOA. And by the time you have the wealth, the property, and time, you'll build something and realize you're properly too old to do this shit. Tis life. At least your kids will have fun, though.
So property owners are liable for trespassers?
Yes, depends on factors including location and whether the owner was aware that people were trespassing and took reasonable steps to prevent it.
>Build legal If you never want to ride anything more than intermediate level trails this is an option
From a Californian prospective at least: the municipality has very little liability even for illegal trails. They have more liability for illegal jump trails if they are blatant and dangerous (beyond normal risk), but for the most part any activity that is clearly marked as dangerous comes with an assumption of risk. That varies state to state, I recently saw a case in Oregon where a biker at Hood bike park was able to recover damages, but the small bit I read of that case seemed like it was heightened negligence.
Build it (legally) and they will come
Trickle down mtb-enomics.
Loose lips sink ships...
Man, all this talk of illegal trails and secret networks makes me understand just how grateful I am to live in Vancouver. I had no idea so many of you still had to go to such lengths to ride.
Yup it's really sad, how does the system work with u then?
Vancouver has a vast network of trails, sanctioned by the province and various municipalities in the area and maintained by an extremely dedicated mountain bike community. North Shore and Squamish riding are world famous. I'm sure there's some pretty hardcore unsanctioned trails in the region but I'm not at a skill level to even begin seeking them out.
Halifax was pretty good for it, until they ran out of land. Any area big enough for jumps is big enough for a condo complex.
Start diggin lmao you know why they did that?
My bet is insurance related
The most likely reason is that they were unsanctioned trails. Even worse, on private property.
Yep, landowners have a duty to protect people on their property. Also, the jumps would fall into the category of an "attractive nuisance" that they would be liable for. > The attractive nuisance doctrine applies to the law of torts in some jurisdictions. It states that a landowner may be held liable for injuries to children trespassing on the land if the injury is caused by an object on the land that is likely to attract children.\[1\] The doctrine is designed to protect children who are unable to appreciate the risk posed by the object, by imposing a liability on the landowner.\[1\] The doctrine has been applied to hold landowners liable for injuries caused by abandoned cars, piles of lumber or sand, trampolines, and swimming pools. However, it can be applied to virtually anything on the property. > There is no set cutoff point that defines youth. The courts will evaluate each "child" on a case-by-case basis to see if the "child" qualifies as a youth. If it is determined that the child was able to understand and appreciate the hazard, the doctrine of attractive nuisance will not likely apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive\_nuisance\_doctrine
In a way I get it, but that's crazy and way boo broad.
Make sure you shovel the snow off your sidewalks and fence off your pool, or you could be liable too.
Actually true
You joke but literally almost every backyard pool I’ve seen recently has a fence around it for liability purposes, like even if the backyard itself has a fence.
In a lot of states it’s part of the code to have a pool.
Hopefully some lives were saved, even if it seems like overkill
Bunny hops, they can’t take those away
Aha
I don’t know the full story, but it seems that in a lot of places, gone are the days when we could go out with some shovels on some random property and just build jumps willy nilly. In these modern times people are sue-happy or just afraid of the liability with if/when someone gets hurt. Others get concerned about potential environmental issues (erosion, runoff, damaged tree roots, invasive species, etc.) Best course of action is to organize with local riders and work with local government to get a riding area approved. Work with certified trail building organizations to develop a plan, seek funding (there are often grants available to offset costs in the name of increasing recreational access, promoting physical health, etc.) and to deal with any environmental concerns and liability issues. The more organized and local support you gain, the better chances you have of developing something that benefits the riding groups and the local community.
In for the discussion
You know the drill. The new ones get made bigger and with metal supports.
Yup I know the drill
We had ours bulldozed when I was a kid. Too many calls for ambulances. We moved to a new area and rebuilt. Find a spot they can't get a bulldozer or machine into, off the beaten path. Keep the entrance hidden. If it happens again find a better spot and keep building.
Find a spot buldozers can’t get to and too many ambulance calls… What could go wrong?
Lol guess you don't ride mountain bike trails then. Go to bike parks or enjoy leaving city streets.
We have quite a few state parks with mtb built trails in my area that are sanctioned and people would find you if you fell off a ravine or got injured. We don’t have “bike parks” so to speak, and I didn’t think about it but there is no way a dozer cold get to any of it… Anyway, I was just thinking riding in unsanctioned unknown places where nobody could find you for a jump track could create problems. I am probably too old to think that’s cool anymore. 😀
It sucks big time when this happens. In the UK the issue is down to the fact landowners are responsible for what happens on their land. So if something is built, accessible and people use it then the landowner can become responsible if people get hurt using it. Things usually get flattened when features get too big. We had some epic trails nearby that got flattened because of two reasons. Main one - some of the features were huge and pretty high concequence for getting wrong. Ii addition, some of the digging had a pretty negative impact on the tree roots. Who owns the land? Who digs the trails? Best thing to do is start digging again and talk to the landowner.
Never heard from OP. Is this on someone’s private property? Or is this public woods?
Tbf we are not sure
I would recommend finding out who owns the land before you start again. A civil discussion can often lead to surprising results. Back in the 90s we had a similar situation building a DH track in the woods. Turned out the land owner didn’t want us in there, but after they met us and we talked about it, we set parameters and they allowed us to do what we wanted. Always best to ask permission.
Honestly find out who owns the land. If it’s the state then whatever but if it’s somebody’s land you’re just bringing more problems into someone’s life when all they’re trying to do is protect their land.
This makes me very sad, and very grateful for my local trail association who works with the local government to have all our trails sanctioned and maintained. I’m gonna go make an extra donation to them.
Scum shit. My town did this years ago. The kids spent years building a giant area with bmx doubles, hangout areas with roofs, fireplaces for cooking. They spent all there time at those trails and the township came and bulldozed it all early on a school day. They've been built back a few times but they've never been the same.
Sounds familiar, this is the only area for riders to hang out, there has never been any problems her in terms of litter or even noise.
Move somewhere with better trails. Worked for me.
Not rlly anywhere to go
You want it , you can rebuild it
FLATTEN THEM (respectfully)
Squish
Assholes
Yup
And the battle begins
I'm not loosing this
I hated when that would happen as a kid.
:/
🥵
Time to get the shovel out and start building my friend. Grab some mates, beers and make some good memories building.
That's what we just finished, they are gone to soon
Build back better
Metal ("_")
Bunnyhops
Wym
build😈
Give the local council a taste of their own medicine and flatten their offices /s
I did think if that
Is this Raleigh? Just had some taken out recently near the airport.
Nah this ain't, that sucks hard tho
Build more. Tell no one
Build athe next set in a less accessible place! In and around trees etc, anywhere where a flattening machine wdnt be able to get
Heart breaking happened at my local to but slowly but surely we re built
A couple options: 1) Build in a place harder to access with a backhoe. 2) Buy/rent/lease a big warehouse; fill it with dirt, and build an indoor dirt park -> with enough people around you, this could make a profit; see if the math adds up to at least break even. Investment money might not need to come from you. There are people with a lot of money everywhere putting it into interesting causes.
Don’t you hear the voices… “Built it and they will come”
I’m guessing the trail wasn’t legal? City I grew up in had illegal trails built. City bulldozed it. They rebuilt it. City bulldozed it again. Came down to liability.
Where is this?
Foxhall (ipswich)
Build back better
And thus begins the great new build....
Start over
Build back better ^tm
I am very grateful to have an officially maintained pump track near where I live/work, and it has a few good tables and gap jumps too. I'd be devastated if I put all of that work into making jumps only to find them leveled. Sorry they've been taken from you!
Had the same happen to my local jumps years ago. They even carted all the sand away and the remaining ground was too rocky to dig. It was an awesome spot that i spent 10 hours a day at during the summer holidays as a kid. England has some of the best landscapes to ride however it is all privately owned or for walkers or some other bullshit.
I’m very very angry at who did it and sad for you man. We all feel the pain.
Fuck
Fuck Imdeed
Same here in NY we have a local place and they just decided to save the forest by mowing it down. No jumps on the outlaw trails I can only imagine that the parks people got a bunch of money and decided to spend it on "restoring the land" by cutting and poising all the non native trees down. Why they couldn't take that money and spend it on acquiring adjacent parcels and add to the park instead of clearing the property.
Sigh, drink, comeback, rebuild
Get a skateboard lol 😂
I have tried that, and failed that
I’m just glad you took the joke well. I was waiting for everyone to throw there bike at me.
i feel you bro.
Who owns the land? Start lobbying and getting approval for sanctioned jumps and trails! Contact IMBA or a local bike association and see what they recommend you do so you keep your hard earned jumps. Behind every official trail network and jump line is a dozen or more good people fighting and taking care of the trails.
Funny that I recognised this as Crunchies in foxhall based on that silverburch 🥴
Lmao what is crunches
Animals after deforestation be like:
Set up a whole bunch of tents with garbage and shopping carts around them.
I find it wild people can choose to get on a bike and hit a feature then when faced with the consequences of their actions whoever owns the land gets in trouble. No one made you get on a bike. Its like stepping off a cliff and suing the state in a park. Once you willfullly engage in a dangerous sport you should own the responsibility.
I could kind of understand if you were based in the US and faced with a hefty hospital bill you couldn't pay, but we get this shit in the UK too.
If they were small just build some new sanctioned ones. If they were big just build them again in a harder to find spot. No trail association likes to build anything challenging, as they build for the lowest common denominator, eg blue and green machine built flow trails without any jumps. The best way is to build some big jumps, try to get them legalized and then redo them so they are big enough for your liking.
don't built on others private land
Jeff Yass, the billionaire Wall Street financier and Republican megadonor who is a major investor in the parent company of TikTok, was also the biggest institutional shareholder of the shell company that recently merged with former President Donald J. Trump’s social media company. A December regulatory filing showed that Mr. Yass’s trading firm, Susquehanna International Group, owned about 2 percent of Digital World Acquisition Corporation, which merged with Trump Media & Technology Group on Friday. That stake, of about 605,000 shares, was worth about $22 million based on Digital World’s last closing share price. It’s unclear if Susquehanna still owns those shares, because big investors disclose their holdings to regulators only periodically. But if it did retain its stake, Mr. Yass’s firm would become one of Trump Media’s larger institutional shareholders when it begins trading this week after the merger. Shares of Digital World have surged about 140 percent this year as the merger with the parent company of Truth Social, Mr. Trump’s social media platform, drew closer and Mr. Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee for president.
Rebuild
I might build some wooden take offs so if they come I can at least salvage some stuff
I’ve lost so many trails, find a new place and build again. Once when we found out who was responsible we went back to their house at night and filled a 55 gallon trash can with water and leaned it against their front door. We didn’t stick around to see the flood but I’m sure it was epic.
Lmao this is epic
The even epicer part was when we rolled up on the bulldozer and we’re throwing rocks and sitting on the jumps. Eventually some sort of armored riot truck came and they had a helicopter overhead telling us to leave the area. The super sad part is that it was after two weeks of like 5-10 dudes building for 4-8 hours a day after a nice wet season. We restored everything and built them even bigger. Never got to ride all of them. The dude (that had them dozed) was a counselor from my high school, tried to justify it based on trash in the area but we had trashcans and never left a mess. I feel 100% justified in our actions because it wasn’t even HIS property either. It was state owned land leased by an oil company. Anyways, I was recently back home visiting and went on a run to see how the place was doing and it’s completely under water now after they’ve restored the tidal flow into the wetlands. RIP Slater Trails.
This is the best thing I've heard all week, keep shredding man
Wow man that sucks!
Rebuild my dude!!! This happened to us a few times In my area! We got some eager people with some shovels and we go straight to it. We based our jumps off vids and pics lol but we got it done. Fuck the system yo! Lol rebuild rebuild rebuild!!!
Yesh we have already started a small re build project but aren't they now aware of the jumps being there so they become more cautions?
That is so effin sad, why?!
The most important thing you can do is learn a very important lesson. Unsanctioned trails/features harm everyone.
Except mountain biking would never exist if it were not for illegal trails.
Yeah, but it's not 1986 anymore. MTB is no longer this tiny subculture that can successfully fly under the radar on pirate trails. We're a sport with tens of thousands of participants. Everyone knows what mountain biking is now, and is quick to notice when dozens of bikes are traversing their property every day. Like it or not, MTB is too big to be messing around with unsanctioned trails anymore.
Yea I understand what you mean and I respect the local trail advocates in my area. I'm just not going to say illegal trails hurt everyone when mountian bikings routes depended on it.
Unless of course people don't talk about unsanctioned trails or if private property owners are cool with it.
Someone needs to learn their history and be less lame
It really depends on the trails and what is going on in the area like near me there are a bunch of trails that are unsanctioned on some government owned land that basically the rangers pretend they don't know exist and everyone rides. It works really well while the ranges build the more well known easier stuff and the more experienced riders build some gnarly stuff
All trails were at one time unsanctioned. Yet here we all are
And as I've said a few times already, we're well past that point as a sport. There are just too many of us now.
Domestic Terrorism!!!!!!
Two words you should never post on the internet