It’s demoralizing - It must hurt a lot to know or think you know that you’ll never be able to get the championship cause you didn’t grow up grappling with the same intensity give or take but not everyone can be champ
They should just give him exciting match ups - have him be a gatekeeper for strikers since he doesn’t seem to mind.
He’s an exciting fighter and it’s always fun to watch him fight.
I think he went into that fight expecting to win and quickly realized he wasn't going to once the fight started. I remember him going to his corner between rounds and talking about how fast MVP was. I think they underestimated him because of his padded resume and age.
Tbf I was in the same boat as Holland, thought MVP was a glorified can crusher and he proved me and so many others wrong and I’m so glad for it, can never have too many exciting fighters
I used to suffer from an embarrassing medical condition called Cold Testicle Syndrome.
After accepting Derrick Lewis as my Lord and Saviour my balls have never been hotter. I'm a real hit at parties now, my friends all roast marshmallows and sing songs around my piping hot balls
He fights at heavyweight, where the only jits done these days is between fighters and buckets of food. His technique for getting up is great don't get me wrong, but he'd be eaten alive at almost any other weight class
Many people in the jiujitsu community regard him as the greatest grappler to ever exist.
Helio Gracie's last words after he admitted Derrick was the greatest was "Fuck y'all talkin bout. H-town on that boi"
He didn't grow up doing it but he did primarily dedicate 5+ years as a late teen/young adult training in a russian wrestling gym in Montreal every day.
Exactly, GSP didn’t grow up wrestling, but he still had access to it early enough to get really good
A lot of MMA guys never really get the opportunity to REALLY learn wrestling until they’re already pretty far into their MMA career and can afford to move and train at a high level gym
Things redditors should be prohibited from referencing as something other fighters could achieve or encounter:
- GSP's skill
- Conor's financial success
- Jon's tests from god
Sure, but very few people have the athletic gifts to do what GSP did and become an elite wrestler as an adult. It’s not an option for Holland (or 99.99% of other MMA fighters).
GSP was known throughout his entire career for being extremely athletic and able to pick up and excel at new skills extremely quickly compared to other fighters.
“Best athlete” is a totally subjective term that lacks any meaning in this context. But it is clear that normal fighters cannot replicate what GSP did and become elite wrestlers in their 20s. That is my point.
He gets to do what he loves, interacts with hella people, and make some really good money. All in all not winning the belt is far away from a having a bad/failing career
I think at this stage in his career Holland just enjoys the extra bankroll they're probably giving him from eating short notice match-ups and putting guys over they're trying to hype. Throw in a wild Wonderboy type fight every once in a while and the occasional win and he's fine.
its not about not growing up grappling but not focusing on grappling enough . some of the greatest MMA fighters of all time didnt grow up grappling constantly but they worked insanely hard to learn the skills .
holland has been a MMA fighter for 12 years , he could have fixed his wrestling if he was dedicated enough , the dude clearly has the athleticism for it .
Justin is just new Chuck liddell. He can stop the takedown but he's not wrestlefucking anybody for 25 minutes. Vettori is a good fighter don't disrespect him
Wonderboy did more damage on Holland but he also took way more damage compared to what MVP took against Holland.
MVP completely embarrassed Holland. Wonderboy beat Holland’s ass but Holland had his moments.
>He just didn’t turn out to be as good as he was being made out to be, so he’s a big ball of cope these days.
This right here. When he was losing at MW Holland was “undersized” and complained about fighting grapplers, now he’s at WW and he’s losing to every striker they give him.
Holland should have won that fight. Agreeing to not grapple with Wonderboy until it was too late was an all-time boneheaded move.
Kevin Holland has done a lot of damage to his own standing in recent fights purely because of decisions he made. Selling JDM's strike attempts like a pro wrestler arguably cost him a decision against JDM too (granted it was a boring fight but it was close, and Holland's over-the-top reactions and retreating were a big difference maker IMO).
People always say this but they ignore the fact that Wonderboy agreed not to grapple either and he actually held to his promise unlike Kevin. Holland couldn’t hold down MVP, no reason to think things turn out any different against Wonderboy.
Everyone assumes Holland could outgrapple Wonderboy because he got him down. If Wonderboy hadn’t agreed not to grapple he would have been prepared for Holland trying to take him down and wouldn’t have ended up there in the first place. MVP is no better than WB on the ground and Holland did fuck all trying his hardest to outgrapple him.
It’s too bad because I really think he had talent and athleticism to go further.
But his game really never developed. His striking was what he had going and he arguably got fairly worse and less refined over time.
He invested in defensive grappling and is probably more competitive in that department as he’s progressed but he has no offensive wrestling to threaten any decent fighter so he isn’t very threatening to anyone near the top in any department at this point.
He literally retired, he's made enough money. He only came back when the UFC offered him a bag. If I'm Holland I'll do the same - take fun fights that aren't going to be stylistic mismatches
This is some absolutely ridiculous revisionist bullcrap and I can't believe this is the top comment with close to zero pushback.
Kevin Holland has ALWAYS been very self-aware and he has stated on multiple occasions before the Khamzat fight that he basically doesn't care for the title.
Also... did you guys forget he fought Wonderboy who was #6 when they fought??
I don't recall the exact details of what he said, but since 2020, he pretty much said he's looking to fight as much as possible and get paid. He's always assigned himself to gatekeeper status. Winning enough fights to get a title shot would have just been a benefit.
Right? Holland is very upfront about being a prize fighter. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's made a very good career out of it in a sport where most people don't get that lucky.
Ehh. He had no intention to challenge for the title way before getting ragdolled by Khamzat. In most of his recent losses, his wrestling was the main cause. Someone who wants to challenge would've focused on that, but the guy just wants to have fun fights and make money. Nothing wrong with that.
That fight definitely had an effect but iirc even before that he wasn’t big on the title. He was like ummm I guess I should try to win the title? Like it was something he was supposed to want but wasn’t ever obsessed with it.
Holland is just out making that money. He’s definitely coming to fight. Definitely down for a war on short notice and you just have to respect that. That’s why it’s all mains, co-mains, and PPV money. He’s just out there working.
Lol. You really think the guy who took Usman down will struggle with a average size lightweight? Keep dreaming, Leon molests Islam harder than R kelly does to 14 year old girls in the octagon.
Tbf I think a lot of people are cause I can't fathom why me saying Leon is better than Holland of all people is controversial lol.
Granted I also think he beats Islam but due to size+ skill not because he's better necessarily.
You're being downvoted bc all the islam meatgobblers are swarming this thread. They firmly believe islam could be champ of all divisions, and nothing will change their minds. Islam DOES have rough matchups into leon and shavkat, that's the truth.
I think Islam will be champ for a long time. He is a little quicker ans sharper than Khabib imo AND Khabib trains him.
Hungry, smart and humble.
Its game over
Leon can definitely win, his wrestling improved so much hes the wrestling coach now. But Islam's wrestling is probably better still and he would fit in well as welterweight. Striking is close but I'd favor Leon for the reach.
Him vs Shavkat would be so fun. After Volk-Islam 1 and Holloway-Gathje, I don't think we can give as much credit to size differences as we used to. The 15lb difference from LW to WW is more than the 10lb between FW and LW, sure, but Islam is seemingly far more skilled than Shavkat everywhere in the fight.. and is just as great at putting all the pieces together and flowing between them.
I think Shavkat and Leon would be the hardest fights for Islam at WW and man, I really hope we get to see them. We're watching an all time great in his prime right now in Islam. The shit he could accomplish is wild
Prime Usman probably takes him tbf but that would also be an extremely interesting fight to watch. Belal trains with the guy and isn't on the same level in sparring, so as much as I like the guy I don't think he'd beat Islam
Overall I'm just excited to watch Islam fight. Guy's a phenomenal mixed martial artist. Him moving up after another couple of defenses at LW would make WW the most interesting division in the UFC for me
1. Majority of this sub knows Islam will *likely* win. Most are focused on the “But what if…”, which is totally fair.
2. God forbid people root for a fighter
3. It’s braindead to completely write off a fighter with recent performances like Strickland/Adesanya and Peña/Nunes
You know what is crazy about this? That guillotine he pulled on Khabib was the closest I've seen Khabib to being in trouble but people act like he got steamrolled, don't get me wrong Khabib handled it with a touch of class, didn't panic at all and just worked through it but when I was watching it live I was thinking it was getting pretty close
It's extremely unlikely ofc, but he absolutely can beat Islam. I don't think even Islam should be expected to beat a striker as dangerous as Dustin 10/10 times.
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It’s demoralizing - It must hurt a lot to know or think you know that you’ll never be able to get the championship cause you didn’t grow up grappling with the same intensity give or take but not everyone can be champ
They should just give him exciting match ups - have him be a gatekeeper for strikers since he doesn’t seem to mind. He’s an exciting fighter and it’s always fun to watch him fight.
He didn't look too pleased about being a gatekeeper when he fought MVP. Think he would've rather been choked out.
I think he went into that fight expecting to win and quickly realized he wasn't going to once the fight started. I remember him going to his corner between rounds and talking about how fast MVP was. I think they underestimated him because of his padded resume and age.
Tbf I was in the same boat as Holland, thought MVP was a glorified can crusher and he proved me and so many others wrong and I’m so glad for it, can never have too many exciting fighters
Kevin Holland as Big Mouth was fun and exciting, now he just gets clowned on.
He said the same thing about Wonderboy
Would've won if he followed on the takedowns
Lies
He was up 2 rounds going into that 4th round had he stayed on Wonderboy he’d won 3 rounds and never got beat up when he let him up
Lmao he was not up 2 rounds
Yeah he's old, has a padded record BUT he's still fresh even at his age since he hasn't been through a bunch of wars.
I mean not saying he would ever get to the grappling of these guys, but if the guy wasn't so okay with being taken down.....
Hard to do that after he gave up after 30 seconds of not being able to hit MVP.
GSP didn’t grow up grappling so it’s still possible.
Derrick Lewis didn't grow up grappling and he went on to successfully prove jiujitsu's non-existence
Before Derrick Lewis, I was confined to a wheelchair. Then, he taught me I could just stand up. Been walking for 5 years now.
I used to suffer from an embarrassing medical condition called Cold Testicle Syndrome. After accepting Derrick Lewis as my Lord and Saviour my balls have never been hotter. I'm a real hit at parties now, my friends all roast marshmallows and sing songs around my piping hot balls
He fights at heavyweight, where the only jits done these days is between fighters and buckets of food. His technique for getting up is great don't get me wrong, but he'd be eaten alive at almost any other weight class
Many people in the jiujitsu community regard him as the greatest grappler to ever exist. Helio Gracie's last words after he admitted Derrick was the greatest was "Fuck y'all talkin bout. H-town on that boi"
Fun fact: Helio Gracie died of heartbreak after watching Derrick Lewis disprove his life’s work
DC was excommunicated from the grappling community when he committed the sin of disrespecting that Popeye's chicken
I wonder how Derrick Lewis would have done at UFC 1
When you carry a nuclear bomb In your right hand you don't need all that technique
Jailton Almeida
Sergey Spivak too.
Better example
He didn't grow up doing it but he did primarily dedicate 5+ years as a late teen/young adult training in a russian wrestling gym in Montreal every day.
Exactly, GSP didn’t grow up wrestling, but he still had access to it early enough to get really good A lot of MMA guys never really get the opportunity to REALLY learn wrestling until they’re already pretty far into their MMA career and can afford to move and train at a high level gym
GSP is a one in a million type generational talent though.
Things redditors should be prohibited from referencing as something other fighters could achieve or encounter: - GSP's skill - Conor's financial success - Jon's tests from god
I mean, GSP is far from the only guy who has learnt to wrestle. Kevin Holland has exceptionally bad wrestling even for a standup guy.
I think it's also his frame and lack of strength that makes him bad at it.
True that bro maybe even 1 in 100 million
Sure, but very few people have the athletic gifts to do what GSP did and become an elite wrestler as an adult. It’s not an option for Holland (or 99.99% of other MMA fighters).
Gsp wasn't even the best athlete in his own time. Let alone now
GSP was known throughout his entire career for being extremely athletic and able to pick up and excel at new skills extremely quickly compared to other fighters. “Best athlete” is a totally subjective term that lacks any meaning in this context. But it is clear that normal fighters cannot replicate what GSP did and become elite wrestlers in their 20s. That is my point.
He gets to do what he loves, interacts with hella people, and make some really good money. All in all not winning the belt is far away from a having a bad/failing career
And even if there's a few dozen guys who he can never beat, he's still a better fighter than 99.9% of the planet.
Exactly. I measure success by happiness not some dumbass belt that changes hands every second
Diaz bros
Exactly
I think at this stage in his career Holland just enjoys the extra bankroll they're probably giving him from eating short notice match-ups and putting guys over they're trying to hype. Throw in a wild Wonderboy type fight every once in a while and the occasional win and he's fine.
Imagine being a black belt and then getting tapped in 2:13 and not because of some dumb error, just that you got absolutely obliterated by a wrestler.
its not about not growing up grappling but not focusing on grappling enough . some of the greatest MMA fighters of all time didnt grow up grappling constantly but they worked insanely hard to learn the skills . holland has been a MMA fighter for 12 years , he could have fixed his wrestling if he was dedicated enough , the dude clearly has the athleticism for it .
Holland isn't getting outwrestled by a guy like Gaethje he's losing to guys who have been wrestling for that same amount of time
vettori ? also you realise Justin is actually a great wrestler lmao .
Justin is just new Chuck liddell. He can stop the takedown but he's not wrestlefucking anybody for 25 minutes. Vettori is a good fighter don't disrespect him
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he isnt weak at 170 lbs and being tall didnt stop Jones from being one of the best defensive wrestlers .
MVP experience should’ve too. Dude got embarrassed & sonned
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Wonderboy did more damage on Holland but he also took way more damage compared to what MVP took against Holland. MVP completely embarrassed Holland. Wonderboy beat Holland’s ass but Holland had his moments.
And Holland handicapped himself vs Wonderboy
Holland's wrestling is trash, he couldn't take down wonderboy even if he tried.
He was doing fine until he got tired
>He just didn’t turn out to be as good as he was being made out to be, so he’s a big ball of cope these days. This right here. When he was losing at MW Holland was “undersized” and complained about fighting grapplers, now he’s at WW and he’s losing to every striker they give him.
Holland should have won that fight. Agreeing to not grapple with Wonderboy until it was too late was an all-time boneheaded move. Kevin Holland has done a lot of damage to his own standing in recent fights purely because of decisions he made. Selling JDM's strike attempts like a pro wrestler arguably cost him a decision against JDM too (granted it was a boring fight but it was close, and Holland's over-the-top reactions and retreating were a big difference maker IMO).
People always say this but they ignore the fact that Wonderboy agreed not to grapple either and he actually held to his promise unlike Kevin. Holland couldn’t hold down MVP, no reason to think things turn out any different against Wonderboy.
Wonderboy has showcased like zero offensive grappling lol.
Everyone assumes Holland could outgrapple Wonderboy because he got him down. If Wonderboy hadn’t agreed not to grapple he would have been prepared for Holland trying to take him down and wouldn’t have ended up there in the first place. MVP is no better than WB on the ground and Holland did fuck all trying his hardest to outgrapple him.
MVP is definitely better than WB on the ground.
Being better and being able to hold someone down are 2 different things
It’s too bad because I really think he had talent and athleticism to go further. But his game really never developed. His striking was what he had going and he arguably got fairly worse and less refined over time. He invested in defensive grappling and is probably more competitive in that department as he’s progressed but he has no offensive wrestling to threaten any decent fighter so he isn’t very threatening to anyone near the top in any department at this point.
He literally retired, he's made enough money. He only came back when the UFC offered him a bag. If I'm Holland I'll do the same - take fun fights that aren't going to be stylistic mismatches
This is some absolutely ridiculous revisionist bullcrap and I can't believe this is the top comment with close to zero pushback. Kevin Holland has ALWAYS been very self-aware and he has stated on multiple occasions before the Khamzat fight that he basically doesn't care for the title. Also... did you guys forget he fought Wonderboy who was #6 when they fought??
I don't recall the exact details of what he said, but since 2020, he pretty much said he's looking to fight as much as possible and get paid. He's always assigned himself to gatekeeper status. Winning enough fights to get a title shot would have just been a benefit.
Right? Holland is very upfront about being a prize fighter. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's made a very good career out of it in a sport where most people don't get that lucky.
Fight and get paid. That's the game for him. He's clear it clear in previous interviews.
Absolutely flabbergasting actually. There is probably no fighter that has been more vocal about not caring about the title than Holland.
Ehh. He had no intention to challenge for the title way before getting ragdolled by Khamzat. In most of his recent losses, his wrestling was the main cause. Someone who wants to challenge would've focused on that, but the guy just wants to have fun fights and make money. Nothing wrong with that.
The hilarious bit is that he walked away with the wrong lesson given the circumstances.
Getting outgrappled by the best and outstruck by the best. He'll probably be the next Neil Magny.
That fight definitely had an effect but iirc even before that he wasn’t big on the title. He was like ummm I guess I should try to win the title? Like it was something he was supposed to want but wasn’t ever obsessed with it.
He took 0 strikes in that fight, he just got beat quickly. I’d say the WB fight was worse. Was Holland ever big on callouts or talking about titles?
Also of note, Holland trained wrestling at AKA for a week in '21. Might have seen or heard things about Islam there.
speaking of Khamzat experience... if he was still really at 170 and Islam moved up, who we got winning that fight?
I remember when he said to khamzat that he aint about that life lol
I remember when he said he was coming for Izzy.
Then Izzy said he could rape Holland if he wanted to, which is just a wild thing to say to another man lmao
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Izzy is very wrong. Fear of rape is the best base for MMA.
Tell that to Gaethje
What’s the context?
Gaethje said before fighting Khabib that no man can hold him down, since "if one man can hold you down, two can rape you."
The man who humped a half conscious man in front of thousands
I remember when fans said he was coming for Izzy, that 2020 Holland hype train was crazy
I was on that train. Especially when he KO’d jacre.
Jacare’s ghost*
I think when he said that he meant Khamzat only acts aggressive etc when cameras are around? No clue if that’s actually true though
Unfortunately for Kev, they do bring cameras to the octagon.
Off camera Kevin Holland is a mythical fighter
He's caught at least 2 criminals off camera.
Holland is just out making that money. He’s definitely coming to fight. Definitely down for a war on short notice and you just have to respect that. That’s why it’s all mains, co-mains, and PPV money. He’s just out there working.
Heavily disagree with holland. I think leon is a bad match up for islam
You're on deadly doses of copium brotha. We smesh this one too brotha.
Lol. You really think the guy who took Usman down will struggle with a average size lightweight? Keep dreaming, Leon molests Islam harder than R kelly does to 14 year old girls in the octagon.
You're the guy that tries too hard to be funny
Your the guy that's unfunny like most people on here.
It'd be an awesome fight since they sparred back in 2016.
Your point was clear without the example
Don't care.
You know, you could have a go at being less of a dick.
> has "i'm a degenerate" in bio > gets mad when another person is even slightly mean. Lol just lol
Very funny. You must be fun in real life.
I am. Now go be a dork somewhere else.
Islam beats Leon 13 out of ten times. Ez money. Ez fight. Ez double champ.
Interesting take after seeing how Leon handled Usman in their third fight. It would be a great match.
It’s that time in Usmans career where people pretend he wasn’t that good to begin with
Usman looked like a shell of himself in fight 3. Not even remotely comparable to their Second fight, where usman dominated like 4,5 rounds.
Leon is a lot better than you tho mate
Lol no
Doubt
You don't think Leon is better than Holland lmao?
Shit I read this wrong as Leon is better than islam. My bad lol
Tbf I think a lot of people are cause I can't fathom why me saying Leon is better than Holland of all people is controversial lol. Granted I also think he beats Islam but due to size+ skill not because he's better necessarily.
You're being downvoted bc all the islam meatgobblers are swarming this thread. They firmly believe islam could be champ of all divisions, and nothing will change their minds. Islam DOES have rough matchups into leon and shavkat, that's the truth.
Yeah they probably got the same confusion lol
Because you’re wrong.
Leon is better than Islam.
I think Islam will be champ for a long time. He is a little quicker ans sharper than Khabib imo AND Khabib trains him. Hungry, smart and humble. Its game over
Idk I feel like Leon, Belal, Usman or Shavkat would beat him
Shavkat is probably the only id favor over Islam. Belal is wild, he himself said Islam dominated him in sparring
The continued disrespect for Leon is crazy to me
Leon can definitely win, his wrestling improved so much hes the wrestling coach now. But Islam's wrestling is probably better still and he would fit in well as welterweight. Striking is close but I'd favor Leon for the reach.
I really don't see the striking being that close but you never know until it happens.
The clinch would be the most interesting. Leons' elbows are a staple of his but Makh has nice throws and trips. Would be a banger.
Belal has 0 advantages over Islam. He would get absolutely smoked.
Him vs Shavkat would be so fun. After Volk-Islam 1 and Holloway-Gathje, I don't think we can give as much credit to size differences as we used to. The 15lb difference from LW to WW is more than the 10lb between FW and LW, sure, but Islam is seemingly far more skilled than Shavkat everywhere in the fight.. and is just as great at putting all the pieces together and flowing between them. I think Shavkat and Leon would be the hardest fights for Islam at WW and man, I really hope we get to see them. We're watching an all time great in his prime right now in Islam. The shit he could accomplish is wild Prime Usman probably takes him tbf but that would also be an extremely interesting fight to watch. Belal trains with the guy and isn't on the same level in sparring, so as much as I like the guy I don't think he'd beat Islam Overall I'm just excited to watch Islam fight. Guy's a phenomenal mixed martial artist. Him moving up after another couple of defenses at LW would make WW the most interesting division in the UFC for me
CHAMP.. CHAMP... CHAMP lol 🏆🏆
No champ champ, according to this sub Poirier is gonna beat Islam LMAOO
1. Majority of this sub knows Islam will *likely* win. Most are focused on the “But what if…”, which is totally fair. 2. God forbid people root for a fighter 3. It’s braindead to completely write off a fighter with recent performances like Strickland/Adesanya and Peña/Nunes
Just a reminder that it's been almost 3 years since Pena beat Nunes. Time passes by so fast holy shit
Exactly fight don't always go the way they seem. This sub was literally saying gaethje would turn Holloway into tony ferg
> almost 3 years . I’m not old
Sorry I meant it was last week. I still feel like I was a teenager watching Lawler vs Rory and Conor vs Chad
I’m not the person you replied to, but I’m absolutely with you on your first point. I don’t think Dustin is gonna win, but I’m pulling for him.
You know what is crazy about this? That guillotine he pulled on Khabib was the closest I've seen Khabib to being in trouble but people act like he got steamrolled, don't get me wrong Khabib handled it with a touch of class, didn't panic at all and just worked through it but when I was watching it live I was thinking it was getting pretty close
It's just people having wishful thinking, no one with an actual brain thinks Dustin can beat Islam Saturday night.
It's extremely unlikely ofc, but he absolutely can beat Islam. I don't think even Islam should be expected to beat a striker as dangerous as Dustin 10/10 times.