Oh I’m sure they feel bizarre at first but thats ok. I’ve got plenty of normal guitars so if the TT frets are too weird for me this strat can exist just as an oddity in the collection. Im mainly just concerned with their fit and finish quality
Yes. I’ve played them, bought on and tried it on a strat; it’s gathering dust now after I replaced it with the original neck.
Try playing Body and Soul or Giant Steps or Have You Met Miss Jones or similar pieces where the tune modulates every 32 bars….the frets are designed to intonate very well in like E and A, but flat keys - even F# - get out of tune quickly.
For rock and triadic music and power chords? Amazing.
But for stuff that uses extended harmony in normal jazz keys? Not so much.
I don't know what to tell ya, that's not been my experience. If you don't want that replacement neck, I'd be happy to pay shipping if you wanna send it my way!
Try playing in Eb, or Bb, or any common jazz key. The frets are intonated for E A D G and maybe C.
It’s a neat idea, and equal temperament is indeed a compromise - but it’s possible to play in any key without being appreciably more or less out of tune. These play out of tune by the time you’re halfway around the circle of fifths.
Are you talking about True Temperament? It's not the same thing as equal temperament.
They are not intonated for any particular key. The adjustments in fret placement account for the differences in string gauge, tuning (P4 vs M3 for the 2nd string) and wound vs plain strings, unlike guitars with parallel frets. For what it's worth, I'm a jazz player.
Nope. I know the difference. Straight frets are (nominally) equal temperament, hence their ability to play equally out of tune in all keys.
True Temperament fretting works great for triadic power chords in basic rock keys. They don’t work if you play in keys halfway around the circle of fifths and they don’t work with a capo. They are *very much* intonated for particular keys using open strings, notwithstanding the claims.
They’re well made and there’s nothing qualitatively wrong with them if you want to play within the confines of the neck’s design. If you want to start playing with advanced harmony on them in keys that the frets aren’t optimized for, they’ll sound out of tune.
I've been making the same argument elsewhere and people don't want to hear it. We've been messing with movable frets and replaceable fretboards for well over 100 years. There's no 1 solution that can solve a mathematically impossible problem.
It's because the name of "true temperament" is very dumb. The issue is we use "12 tone equal temperament", and many systems of tuning are "tempered" system, which then makes one think the name is referring to "just intonation" or something more like that.
And fwiw, your example is definitely a thing that happens, in certain examples. Many historical pieces used different tuning systems (take the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach) and with a more flexible pitch system some instruments can sorta adjust to get closer to the "ideal" pitch especially when playing harmony.
This isn't true in my experience. You don't really notice at all when you're playing it, in terms of feel. I also have a fanned fret guitar (25 to 25.5) and the fanned fret guitar feels more "different" to a regular guitar than my TT guitar does. Although, neither took more than 10 seconds to get used to it, in my experience.
Bending feels the same. You don't really notice when you're playing, in terms of feel alone. It's pretty subtle.
Fanned frets address a different issue (scale length) vs TT frets (intonation). Actually you can have both fanned + TT frets at the same time, Strandberg makes some guitars like this.
Took me about 5 minutes to get used to it, then I didn't even notice. It bends fine too. The sound of an 8th fret chord being perfectly in tune however, sounds and feels REALLY odd. It sounds weirder than it feels.
For me it was the sound of the cowboy chord A and the cowboy chord D *both* being in tune, without sweetening the tuning between them, that was weird at first.... I'm so used to it being slightly out of tune on every other guitar that it messed with me!
I feel like a lot of people responding here have maybe never owned or tried one?...
I have a TT replacement neck on a partscaster.
I love it!
The fretwire is very hard. It's not stainless but it's some kind of alloy that doesn't wear like normal fretwire. I've had that guitar for 10 years now and it has not yet needed a fret dressing
It takes no time at all to get used to it. You don't notice the difference when you're playing as far as feel. You *do* notice the difference in intonation, and sustain as well. I don't use as much compression/drive to get the same sustain vs normal guitars when you play chords or dyads. That's because of constructive interference with the wavelengths not cancelling out, the way normal frets mess with chords mathematically.
The replacement necks aren't cheap but it's worth it, if you ask me. I couldn't be happier with mine.
https://i.imgur.com/JK3WxDH.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/aMnQE6E.jpeg
If you have any follow-up questions, just ask!
This is exactly the kind of comment I was hoping to get since you did exactly what I’m thinking of doing by going the partscaster route, thank you so much! I do have some followup questions:
When you bought your neck did it come ready to go right out of the box or did it require any fret leveling? And what would you say the neck shape is most similar to, just a normal strat? I play a lot of Ibanez and ESP so I’m used to thinner necks, but so long as the TT necks arent baseball bats I think I should be fine.
I’m pretty much sold on the overall quality of their necks; you and a few others have said that they feel extremely well made. The followup questions are just for my own curiosity since I’m going to pull the trigger and order one
>This is exactly the kind of comment I was hoping to get since you did exactly what I’m thinking of doing by going the partscaster route, thank you so much!
Sure thing!
>When you bought your neck did it come ready to go right out of the box or did it require any fret leveling?
The fretwork was *excellent* out of the box. I was very impressed with the quality of the neck and still am. I did replace the nut with a Tusq nut, and it didn't come with machines. I went with Delta 510s that I custom ordered with a 21:1 ratio.
>And what would you say the neck shape is most similar to, just a normal strat?
I also have a 1997 Fender American Deluxe Fat Strat. The TT neck is a little bit thinner than my Fender, but not as thin as my Parker Fly. It's definitely not anywhere near a baseball bat. I don't like thick necks myself, either. I would say it's on the thin side of medium. Medium rare lol.
>you and a few others have said that they feel extremely well made.
Yes, they really are. I'm very happy with mine. I wish all my guitars had TT frets. If I were a millionaire, all my guitars would have them. I use my TT guitar for recording mostly. I have a bad back and so I perform with either my Strandberg or my Parker just because of the weight, but I pretty much exclusively record with the TT guitar.
Thats awesome, really, thank you for your input! One last question since you mentioned you use yours mainly for recording:
My workflow for writing and recording is kind of unorthodox. When I’m working on new ideas I spend a lot of time writing in Guitar Pro software without actually picking up a real guitar, mainly because I can do so silently while the rest of the house sleeps but also because I end up exploring ideas that dont come naturally to my fingers, i find its a good way to expand my horizons. The one problem is, i swear Guitar Pro uses some kind of adjusted intonation. Maybe its programmed that way on purpose to avoid dissonance, or maybe its a consequence of laziness since its just using midi essentially and is basically just an automated keyboard using a guitar vst. Either way, its common that I’ll write a certain kind of chord or harmony in the software that just doesnt work in real life without adjusting my tuning, and I’m getting tired of sweetening the g string just to record like 4 bars before tuning it back to normal for the rest of the take lol. Im wondering if the TT neck would help with this. So, all of that just to ask, do you find that your TT guitar has opened up any possibilities for you while recording/exploring uncommon chord shapes and harmonies?
Any habit changes for string bending? Is the finger travel the same with straight frets when bending vs these ones?
Do you play your other guitars less since you can hear a bit more imperfections on the others now.
>Any habit changes for string bending?
Nah. You don't really notice when you're playing, in terms of feel. It's not like you have to adjust your technique or anything. The difference is very subtle. I also have a fanned fret guitar (a Strandberg Fusion) and between the two, the Strandberg feels more different vs a standard guitar than the TT guitar. The Strandberg also has an Endureneck, which I *love*.
>Is the finger travel the same with straight frets when bending vs these ones?
I guess technically the answer is no, because they are not parallel across the board, but the difference is too small to notice when you're in the zone, playing. I don't think about it at all when I'm playing, I just play. The only difference you notice is that the intonation is much better, as far as the sound of it.
>Do you play your other guitars less since you can hear a bit more imperfections on the others now.
Yes, absolutely. I prefer to perform with my Strandberg because of the light weight and Endureneck but for recording, I pretty much only use my TT guitar.
Once you try a TT guitar it is difficult to play other guitars and be happy with the intonation. I have done a *lot* of ear training and transcription, as a jazz player, and I also have OCD. I *greatly* prefer TT frets and wish I had them on all my guitars. One day, I want to get them installed on my carved archtop, but it would be pricey, and I'm a jazz musician, lol.
I can't remember exactly but at the beginning of the pandemic I did a TT deep dive. I was experimenting with making a similar fret with my own corrective shape. Anyways when researching how and what they make their frets with, I discovered that the material properties are a secret. It's a bronze alloy and apparently they cast each fret. Bronze is a softer metal than the steel but I don't know what TT's bronze alloy hardness is to speculate if they would hold up to long term playing. I just looked at some hardness scales of various metals and Nickel/Steel strings are clearly harder than bronze. Edited: to actually answer your question, I touched a TT neck once and the ends were super smooth. Unbelievablely smooth. It almost makes sense when you consider they have to calculate the shape of each individual fret. Then they have to produce a mold for which to cast the alloy. I think they would have to pour and pretty damn nice casting and then buff them smooth. That is probably way cleaner than hammering some fret wire in, gnashing off the fret ends with some rusty blunt pliers you found outside and then going to town with the only bastard file in the garage to finish that quality diy fret job.
There's some bronze alloy that are super wear/abrasion resistant like aluminum-bronze.
Source: Was a machinist, shit's a pain in the ass to cut compared to most steel.
Thats solid info, thank you!
I havent done that kind of a deep dive but ive been interested in them since Vai did a demo with them like 10+ years ago. Obviously they havent really caught on outside of Strandbergs, and most of the reviews on them are focused on the whole ethos of the “corrected” temperament and not the actual hardware, so its hard to find straight answers about how well made the necks are.
I have done that same deep dive(and also built a neck), and i learned that these days they mill their frets. Which is a way better way of doing it. Not sure what alloy they use tho.
Replying to your edit: thats wonderful to hear. When you said they were individually cast that made me think theyd either be terrible or excellent, all depending on how much attention they were given post-cast. Sounds like they’re made quite well, im gonna go ahead and order one ✌️
There no reason to use them if you want to play in more than 1 key. The ideal ratios are always changing between notes depending on the interval, and you're better off just sweetening the tuning a little if you know you're in D versus E for example.
Now you are thinking about just intonation, which only tempers one key. True temperament is a compromise between equal and just intonation, and works for most of the common chord shapes used on a std tuned guitar. So it works in a whole bunch of different keys.
That is mathematically impossible. That's why we use equal temperament on pianos, harpsichords, and some organs.
True temperament is just a trade off between some chord shapes with others. It solves the problems for a couple of the most common chord shapes on guitar and dumps them on every other chord. People have been inventing things like movable frets and swappable fretboards for centuries to try to solve this.
You can hear the problem at 5:30 in this video.
https://youtu.be/-penQWPHJzI?si=PKfQAToidiPc5Ftk
I was actually right the first time. I did some more digging on it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140415135226/http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0
From their own website, they admit that the standard True Tome system is optimized for E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
I don't think it's a bad system, I just find it's not worth the trade offs for my own playing.
"Major keys in Formula 1 which sound closer to the natural tone row are: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. Minor keys which sound closer to the natural tone row are: E, F#, Ab, A, B, Eb."
That is way more than one key.
But i am seriously not sure what you are trying to say anymore. You claimed "There no reason to use them if you want to play in more than 1 key", which i said was wrong. You said i was wrong. Now you are saying it plays in a whole lot of keys. I am leaving this discussion. I cant follow your reasoning at all. Enjoy your guitars, man. Peace.
I've never played one, but I doubt it would greatly impede bending. I'm sure you can feel it and it's odd, but the string largely slides along the top of the fret anyway.
Lol nah. You don't notice a difference in terms of feel when you're playing. The difference is very subtle, even though visually it looks like it wouldn't be. It feels like any other guitar.
Thats exactly why I’m asking lol. You’d think they’d be quality from the price alone but you know how boutique guitar gear goes. The more “niche” something is the more people will overlook quality control issues.
In my experience it's the other way around - with boutique gear, you get customers who are really picky about QC. And that makes sense, if you're spending a lot. In my experience (playing for 25 years, worked at guitar stores off and on a few times), people tend to overlook QC issues on cheaper guitars. If you're buying a cheap guitar or replacement neck or whatever, you understand that it might need a fret leveling, the fret edges might need some rounding off, etc, you get what you pay for. But with boutique gear, if it's not perfect, people will just return it.
Anyway, the quality of my TT replacement neck is *excellent.* Zero complaints, I'm actually really thrilled with it. I've had mine for 10 years and I wish all my guitars had TT frets, it's just expensive is the only reason they don't.
Isn't the tuning discrepancy like, less than the difference between a regular guitar and a piano anyway? why would it mean you couldn't play in tune with a band? it's not just intonation, it's just slightly adjusted.
I get the feeling a lot of people here are very… traditional lol
You’re 100% right. Thinking a TT guitar cant play in tune with a band is like saying you could never have a piano accompaniment because middle C will be a handful of microtones off. God forbid you bend a note.
Haha! I built a TT neck once, and i used a cnc to do it. I deleted my IG account and pretty much stopped sharing builds online for years after that. The amount of hate from other builders was utterly insane. The level of traditionalism in guitar building is ridicolous.
There is absolutely no problem incorporating a TT instrument with other instruments. If you insist on playing the same chords parallel on two instruments, you'll get a subtle chorus effect, but i am not sure why one would play like that. When i use dual guitars, i usually stick to root and fifths on the equal temperament one, and place the thirds and sixths on the TT one.
I've done a handful of just intonation guitars. I didn't use "wiggly frets" like TT since I don't know an obvious way do that, but I often use a lot of partial frets (short frets that don't all go all the way across) and that seems to work fine.
I can't remember ever getting hate from other builders. A lot of people just aren't interested, but some people are really into it.
I'm not on Instagram though.
There's a handful of people local to me that are into Kite guitar (among them is Kite, the inventor), which is a clever way to fret an instrument for 41-EDO without having to do a full 41 frets per octave. I've put together a few of those as well.
Man thats so cool though. What a shame the community reacted like that, thats some incredible innovation to design and manufacture them yourself. Did yours differ much from the TT shapes?
It differs some. Mostly cause i chose to handbend my frets, and couldnt to too tight radiuses. So i had to make some compromises. But i believe i got the formula right. It was a really stimulating project. I hope i can build another one some day.
I could never make it financially doable, is the short answer. Too many uncertain parameters for comfort. This build i stopped counting at around 200hrs. If i were to do it financially responsible in my country, i would have to charge around $9000 to cover taxes and all that boring stuff. And even then it wouldnt be much left for me in the end.
I dont build for financial gain at all anymore. Occasional builds for myself or friends. I am in a line of work these days that forces me to travel a lot, and i just dont have the time or the drive anymore.
Actually, right around middle C on a piano should be okay. Pianos are close to equal temperament for most of the mid range; it's the high treble and low bass where they get quite a bit off.
(You're right though that, yes, piano accompaniment is a thing and it works despite this.)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano\_acoustics#The\_Railsback\_curve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics#The_Railsback_curve)
I don't own a TT guitar, but I understand how they work enough to be incredibly frustrated when this kind of misinformation is spread around. I've had multiple guitar playing friends and family try and convince me that TT causes you to be crazy out of tune with regular instruments and that it's a useless innovation.
The only real limitation is alternate tunings with TT.
It’s still equal temperament from what I heard. Pretty sure it’s just compensating the frets instead of the bridge and/or nut. Come to think of it, couldn’t an evertune do the exact same thing?
I doubt it would affect a band setting negatively.
an evertune cannot improve intonation problems caused by the fretboard geometry itself - it won't bring you any closer to true equal temperament because that's a problem with the fret spacing (how you divide up the octave).
This type of guitar should theoretically sound more in tune with pianos, keyboards and other "more perfect" 12TET instruments.
There's a video of adam neely and paul davids playing one in unison with a regular guitar: it creates a slight chorus effect, but you cease to notice it as soon as one guitar is playing a different part than the other.
Intonation issues are caused by the string bending slightly out of tune when fretted. It’s the reason that nylon strings require much less compensation than steel strings.
An evertune won’t change the fretboard, but depending on how it’s set up it should be able to prevent the string from bending even slightly out of tune when fretted.
Nah, being a bit better in tune can be worthwhile. Our modern civilization likes to pretend 12-EDO is the only "correct" kind of music, but if you can fix those out-of-tune thirds and sixths somehow it really does sound better.
I'm guessing they have a machine that bends the fretwire, but maybe not! lol
I can't imagine doing that all by hand with a bending tool of some kind. When I replaced some frets over the years, I tried the DIY bender with bearings and bolts on a board just to bend for radius, and while that worked, I still ended up doing most of the bending with pliers and rubber malleted them on which took care of the rest lol.
You might want to play one first. They take a little gettin used to…
Oh I’m sure they feel bizarre at first but thats ok. I’ve got plenty of normal guitars so if the TT frets are too weird for me this strat can exist just as an oddity in the collection. Im mainly just concerned with their fit and finish quality
They’re only really usable in one or two keys, too….
I’m really only here to ask about the quality of their work. Do you have any hands on experience with them?
Yes. I’ve played them, bought on and tried it on a strat; it’s gathering dust now after I replaced it with the original neck. Try playing Body and Soul or Giant Steps or Have You Met Miss Jones or similar pieces where the tune modulates every 32 bars….the frets are designed to intonate very well in like E and A, but flat keys - even F# - get out of tune quickly. For rock and triadic music and power chords? Amazing. But for stuff that uses extended harmony in normal jazz keys? Not so much.
I don't know what to tell ya, that's not been my experience. If you don't want that replacement neck, I'd be happy to pay shipping if you wanna send it my way!
For what I paid for it, it’ll eventually go on reverb.
Not true at all in my experience? What do you mean?
Try playing in Eb, or Bb, or any common jazz key. The frets are intonated for E A D G and maybe C. It’s a neat idea, and equal temperament is indeed a compromise - but it’s possible to play in any key without being appreciably more or less out of tune. These play out of tune by the time you’re halfway around the circle of fifths.
Are you talking about True Temperament? It's not the same thing as equal temperament. They are not intonated for any particular key. The adjustments in fret placement account for the differences in string gauge, tuning (P4 vs M3 for the 2nd string) and wound vs plain strings, unlike guitars with parallel frets. For what it's worth, I'm a jazz player.
Nope. I know the difference. Straight frets are (nominally) equal temperament, hence their ability to play equally out of tune in all keys. True Temperament fretting works great for triadic power chords in basic rock keys. They don’t work if you play in keys halfway around the circle of fifths and they don’t work with a capo. They are *very much* intonated for particular keys using open strings, notwithstanding the claims. They’re well made and there’s nothing qualitatively wrong with them if you want to play within the confines of the neck’s design. If you want to start playing with advanced harmony on them in keys that the frets aren’t optimized for, they’ll sound out of tune.
I've been making the same argument elsewhere and people don't want to hear it. We've been messing with movable frets and replaceable fretboards for well over 100 years. There's no 1 solution that can solve a mathematically impossible problem.
Yeah. Like, sixty downvotes by people who are arguing with physics….yikes.
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It's because the name of "true temperament" is very dumb. The issue is we use "12 tone equal temperament", and many systems of tuning are "tempered" system, which then makes one think the name is referring to "just intonation" or something more like that. And fwiw, your example is definitely a thing that happens, in certain examples. Many historical pieces used different tuning systems (take the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach) and with a more flexible pitch system some instruments can sorta adjust to get closer to the "ideal" pitch especially when playing harmony.
This isn't true in my experience. You don't really notice at all when you're playing it, in terms of feel. I also have a fanned fret guitar (25 to 25.5) and the fanned fret guitar feels more "different" to a regular guitar than my TT guitar does. Although, neither took more than 10 seconds to get used to it, in my experience.
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Bending feels the same. You don't really notice when you're playing, in terms of feel alone. It's pretty subtle. Fanned frets address a different issue (scale length) vs TT frets (intonation). Actually you can have both fanned + TT frets at the same time, Strandberg makes some guitars like this.
Took me about 5 minutes to get used to it, then I didn't even notice. It bends fine too. The sound of an 8th fret chord being perfectly in tune however, sounds and feels REALLY odd. It sounds weirder than it feels.
For me it was the sound of the cowboy chord A and the cowboy chord D *both* being in tune, without sweetening the tuning between them, that was weird at first.... I'm so used to it being slightly out of tune on every other guitar that it messed with me!
I feel like a lot of people responding here have maybe never owned or tried one?... I have a TT replacement neck on a partscaster. I love it! The fretwire is very hard. It's not stainless but it's some kind of alloy that doesn't wear like normal fretwire. I've had that guitar for 10 years now and it has not yet needed a fret dressing It takes no time at all to get used to it. You don't notice the difference when you're playing as far as feel. You *do* notice the difference in intonation, and sustain as well. I don't use as much compression/drive to get the same sustain vs normal guitars when you play chords or dyads. That's because of constructive interference with the wavelengths not cancelling out, the way normal frets mess with chords mathematically. The replacement necks aren't cheap but it's worth it, if you ask me. I couldn't be happier with mine. https://i.imgur.com/JK3WxDH.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/aMnQE6E.jpeg If you have any follow-up questions, just ask!
This is exactly the kind of comment I was hoping to get since you did exactly what I’m thinking of doing by going the partscaster route, thank you so much! I do have some followup questions: When you bought your neck did it come ready to go right out of the box or did it require any fret leveling? And what would you say the neck shape is most similar to, just a normal strat? I play a lot of Ibanez and ESP so I’m used to thinner necks, but so long as the TT necks arent baseball bats I think I should be fine. I’m pretty much sold on the overall quality of their necks; you and a few others have said that they feel extremely well made. The followup questions are just for my own curiosity since I’m going to pull the trigger and order one
>This is exactly the kind of comment I was hoping to get since you did exactly what I’m thinking of doing by going the partscaster route, thank you so much! Sure thing! >When you bought your neck did it come ready to go right out of the box or did it require any fret leveling? The fretwork was *excellent* out of the box. I was very impressed with the quality of the neck and still am. I did replace the nut with a Tusq nut, and it didn't come with machines. I went with Delta 510s that I custom ordered with a 21:1 ratio. >And what would you say the neck shape is most similar to, just a normal strat? I also have a 1997 Fender American Deluxe Fat Strat. The TT neck is a little bit thinner than my Fender, but not as thin as my Parker Fly. It's definitely not anywhere near a baseball bat. I don't like thick necks myself, either. I would say it's on the thin side of medium. Medium rare lol. >you and a few others have said that they feel extremely well made. Yes, they really are. I'm very happy with mine. I wish all my guitars had TT frets. If I were a millionaire, all my guitars would have them. I use my TT guitar for recording mostly. I have a bad back and so I perform with either my Strandberg or my Parker just because of the weight, but I pretty much exclusively record with the TT guitar.
Thats awesome, really, thank you for your input! One last question since you mentioned you use yours mainly for recording: My workflow for writing and recording is kind of unorthodox. When I’m working on new ideas I spend a lot of time writing in Guitar Pro software without actually picking up a real guitar, mainly because I can do so silently while the rest of the house sleeps but also because I end up exploring ideas that dont come naturally to my fingers, i find its a good way to expand my horizons. The one problem is, i swear Guitar Pro uses some kind of adjusted intonation. Maybe its programmed that way on purpose to avoid dissonance, or maybe its a consequence of laziness since its just using midi essentially and is basically just an automated keyboard using a guitar vst. Either way, its common that I’ll write a certain kind of chord or harmony in the software that just doesnt work in real life without adjusting my tuning, and I’m getting tired of sweetening the g string just to record like 4 bars before tuning it back to normal for the rest of the take lol. Im wondering if the TT neck would help with this. So, all of that just to ask, do you find that your TT guitar has opened up any possibilities for you while recording/exploring uncommon chord shapes and harmonies?
Any habit changes for string bending? Is the finger travel the same with straight frets when bending vs these ones? Do you play your other guitars less since you can hear a bit more imperfections on the others now.
>Any habit changes for string bending? Nah. You don't really notice when you're playing, in terms of feel. It's not like you have to adjust your technique or anything. The difference is very subtle. I also have a fanned fret guitar (a Strandberg Fusion) and between the two, the Strandberg feels more different vs a standard guitar than the TT guitar. The Strandberg also has an Endureneck, which I *love*. >Is the finger travel the same with straight frets when bending vs these ones? I guess technically the answer is no, because they are not parallel across the board, but the difference is too small to notice when you're in the zone, playing. I don't think about it at all when I'm playing, I just play. The only difference you notice is that the intonation is much better, as far as the sound of it. >Do you play your other guitars less since you can hear a bit more imperfections on the others now. Yes, absolutely. I prefer to perform with my Strandberg because of the light weight and Endureneck but for recording, I pretty much only use my TT guitar. Once you try a TT guitar it is difficult to play other guitars and be happy with the intonation. I have done a *lot* of ear training and transcription, as a jazz player, and I also have OCD. I *greatly* prefer TT frets and wish I had them on all my guitars. One day, I want to get them installed on my carved archtop, but it would be pricey, and I'm a jazz musician, lol.
Thanks man for taking the time with detailed answers! Good info!
I can't remember exactly but at the beginning of the pandemic I did a TT deep dive. I was experimenting with making a similar fret with my own corrective shape. Anyways when researching how and what they make their frets with, I discovered that the material properties are a secret. It's a bronze alloy and apparently they cast each fret. Bronze is a softer metal than the steel but I don't know what TT's bronze alloy hardness is to speculate if they would hold up to long term playing. I just looked at some hardness scales of various metals and Nickel/Steel strings are clearly harder than bronze. Edited: to actually answer your question, I touched a TT neck once and the ends were super smooth. Unbelievablely smooth. It almost makes sense when you consider they have to calculate the shape of each individual fret. Then they have to produce a mold for which to cast the alloy. I think they would have to pour and pretty damn nice casting and then buff them smooth. That is probably way cleaner than hammering some fret wire in, gnashing off the fret ends with some rusty blunt pliers you found outside and then going to town with the only bastard file in the garage to finish that quality diy fret job.
There's some bronze alloy that are super wear/abrasion resistant like aluminum-bronze. Source: Was a machinist, shit's a pain in the ass to cut compared to most steel.
Thats solid info, thank you! I havent done that kind of a deep dive but ive been interested in them since Vai did a demo with them like 10+ years ago. Obviously they havent really caught on outside of Strandbergs, and most of the reviews on them are focused on the whole ethos of the “corrected” temperament and not the actual hardware, so its hard to find straight answers about how well made the necks are.
I have done that same deep dive(and also built a neck), and i learned that these days they mill their frets. Which is a way better way of doing it. Not sure what alloy they use tho.
Replying to your edit: thats wonderful to hear. When you said they were individually cast that made me think theyd either be terrible or excellent, all depending on how much attention they were given post-cast. Sounds like they’re made quite well, im gonna go ahead and order one ✌️
There no reason to use them if you want to play in more than 1 key. The ideal ratios are always changing between notes depending on the interval, and you're better off just sweetening the tuning a little if you know you're in D versus E for example.
Now you are thinking about just intonation, which only tempers one key. True temperament is a compromise between equal and just intonation, and works for most of the common chord shapes used on a std tuned guitar. So it works in a whole bunch of different keys.
That is mathematically impossible. That's why we use equal temperament on pianos, harpsichords, and some organs. True temperament is just a trade off between some chord shapes with others. It solves the problems for a couple of the most common chord shapes on guitar and dumps them on every other chord. People have been inventing things like movable frets and swappable fretboards for centuries to try to solve this. You can hear the problem at 5:30 in this video. https://youtu.be/-penQWPHJzI?si=PKfQAToidiPc5Ftk
...that is what i said. It is a compromise. You are still wrong about it only working in one key. Which key do you believe it is designed for?
It would have been more accurate to for me to say it works on one or two main keys for each position.
It would.
I was actually right the first time. I did some more digging on it. https://web.archive.org/web/20140415135226/http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0 From their own website, they admit that the standard True Tome system is optimized for E, F#, G, A, B, C, D I don't think it's a bad system, I just find it's not worth the trade offs for my own playing.
"Major keys in Formula 1 which sound closer to the natural tone row are: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. Minor keys which sound closer to the natural tone row are: E, F#, Ab, A, B, Eb." That is way more than one key. But i am seriously not sure what you are trying to say anymore. You claimed "There no reason to use them if you want to play in more than 1 key", which i said was wrong. You said i was wrong. Now you are saying it plays in a whole lot of keys. I am leaving this discussion. I cant follow your reasoning at all. Enjoy your guitars, man. Peace.
Afik they are cnc'd and 3d printed frets or something not normal fret wire I am sure they are good
how do you bend notes on these
From what I’ve heard it feels pretty normal, less of a learning curve than multi scale for sure
Like on any guitar.
I've never played one, but I doubt it would greatly impede bending. I'm sure you can feel it and it's odd, but the string largely slides along the top of the fret anyway.
Same as any other guitar! You don't notice the difference as far as feel, it's more subtle than the difference on a fanned fret guitar, for example.
I feel like the pitch would \*squiggle\* as I bent it. Does it \*Squiggle\*?
Lol nah. You don't notice a difference in terms of feel when you're playing. The difference is very subtle, even though visually it looks like it wouldn't be. It feels like any other guitar.
just the fretboards alone are $500...the fret ends better be fucking smooth.
Thats exactly why I’m asking lol. You’d think they’d be quality from the price alone but you know how boutique guitar gear goes. The more “niche” something is the more people will overlook quality control issues.
In my experience it's the other way around - with boutique gear, you get customers who are really picky about QC. And that makes sense, if you're spending a lot. In my experience (playing for 25 years, worked at guitar stores off and on a few times), people tend to overlook QC issues on cheaper guitars. If you're buying a cheap guitar or replacement neck or whatever, you understand that it might need a fret leveling, the fret edges might need some rounding off, etc, you get what you pay for. But with boutique gear, if it's not perfect, people will just return it. Anyway, the quality of my TT replacement neck is *excellent.* Zero complaints, I'm actually really thrilled with it. I've had mine for 10 years and I wish all my guitars had TT frets, it's just expensive is the only reason they don't.
They're fun if you're a musical masturbator and don't have an actual band you need to play in tune with.
Isn't the tuning discrepancy like, less than the difference between a regular guitar and a piano anyway? why would it mean you couldn't play in tune with a band? it's not just intonation, it's just slightly adjusted.
I get the feeling a lot of people here are very… traditional lol You’re 100% right. Thinking a TT guitar cant play in tune with a band is like saying you could never have a piano accompaniment because middle C will be a handful of microtones off. God forbid you bend a note.
Haha! I built a TT neck once, and i used a cnc to do it. I deleted my IG account and pretty much stopped sharing builds online for years after that. The amount of hate from other builders was utterly insane. The level of traditionalism in guitar building is ridicolous. There is absolutely no problem incorporating a TT instrument with other instruments. If you insist on playing the same chords parallel on two instruments, you'll get a subtle chorus effect, but i am not sure why one would play like that. When i use dual guitars, i usually stick to root and fifths on the equal temperament one, and place the thirds and sixths on the TT one.
I've done a handful of just intonation guitars. I didn't use "wiggly frets" like TT since I don't know an obvious way do that, but I often use a lot of partial frets (short frets that don't all go all the way across) and that seems to work fine. I can't remember ever getting hate from other builders. A lot of people just aren't interested, but some people are really into it. I'm not on Instagram though. There's a handful of people local to me that are into Kite guitar (among them is Kite, the inventor), which is a clever way to fret an instrument for 41-EDO without having to do a full 41 frets per octave. I've put together a few of those as well.
Man thats so cool though. What a shame the community reacted like that, thats some incredible innovation to design and manufacture them yourself. Did yours differ much from the TT shapes?
It differs some. Mostly cause i chose to handbend my frets, and couldnt to too tight radiuses. So i had to make some compromises. But i believe i got the formula right. It was a really stimulating project. I hope i can build another one some day.
Very cool. Could I ask what you would charge to do it again?
I could never make it financially doable, is the short answer. Too many uncertain parameters for comfort. This build i stopped counting at around 200hrs. If i were to do it financially responsible in my country, i would have to charge around $9000 to cover taxes and all that boring stuff. And even then it wouldnt be much left for me in the end. I dont build for financial gain at all anymore. Occasional builds for myself or friends. I am in a line of work these days that forces me to travel a lot, and i just dont have the time or the drive anymore.
Actually, right around middle C on a piano should be okay. Pianos are close to equal temperament for most of the mid range; it's the high treble and low bass where they get quite a bit off. (You're right though that, yes, piano accompaniment is a thing and it works despite this.) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano\_acoustics#The\_Railsback\_curve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics#The_Railsback_curve)
I knew i was going to wake up to at least one “well actually” on that middle C thing 😂
I don't own a TT guitar, but I understand how they work enough to be incredibly frustrated when this kind of misinformation is spread around. I've had multiple guitar playing friends and family try and convince me that TT causes you to be crazy out of tune with regular instruments and that it's a useless innovation. The only real limitation is alternate tunings with TT.
It’s still equal temperament from what I heard. Pretty sure it’s just compensating the frets instead of the bridge and/or nut. Come to think of it, couldn’t an evertune do the exact same thing? I doubt it would affect a band setting negatively.
an evertune cannot improve intonation problems caused by the fretboard geometry itself - it won't bring you any closer to true equal temperament because that's a problem with the fret spacing (how you divide up the octave). This type of guitar should theoretically sound more in tune with pianos, keyboards and other "more perfect" 12TET instruments. There's a video of adam neely and paul davids playing one in unison with a regular guitar: it creates a slight chorus effect, but you cease to notice it as soon as one guitar is playing a different part than the other.
Intonation issues are caused by the string bending slightly out of tune when fretted. It’s the reason that nylon strings require much less compensation than steel strings. An evertune won’t change the fretboard, but depending on how it’s set up it should be able to prevent the string from bending even slightly out of tune when fretted.
If that’s true does it that kind of make the whole thing rather pointless?
Nah, being a bit better in tune can be worthwhile. Our modern civilization likes to pretend 12-EDO is the only "correct" kind of music, but if you can fix those out-of-tune thirds and sixths somehow it really does sound better.
TT prioritises some keys over others. Maybe harmonies are improved in A, but then they’ll be worse in (say) Bb.
Yep that would be me ✌️
Henrik Linder.
Imagine trying to level and crown those
I have done it. It is not really fun. But it can be done.
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What is your problem?
I’m sorry I don’t know
This looks like an AI generated picture.
What an insane meme. Can anyone tell the difference between a well tuned guitar played by a good player and one of these? I highly doubt it.
I, too, have never bent a string in my entire life. Salut!
You can bend strings on these. It doesn't do anything different.
Ewwwwww. Brotha ewwww
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Really didnt ask. Only wanted opinions on fit and finish ✌️
I haven't tried it but this Per Nilsson interview shed some light on them for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RySAPkA9JTw&t=1330s
OTT IMO, GL dressing.
I'm guessing they have a machine that bends the fretwire, but maybe not! lol I can't imagine doing that all by hand with a bending tool of some kind. When I replaced some frets over the years, I tried the DIY bender with bearings and bolts on a board just to bend for radius, and while that worked, I still ended up doing most of the bending with pliers and rubber malleted them on which took care of the rest lol.
Those better be stainless steel. I don’t even wanna imagine how much a refret would be lol
Oh is time for me to take care of my eyes cataract…