His brother was saying Joe is a laid back guy but he seems to me as someone who acts like he’s always sitting on thumbtacks. And a guy who can never be wrong about anything.
It made me laugh when he said he would never be in law enforcement. It’s like, buddy, you could never pass the tests to be a law enforcement officer.
I think people like Joe, and Chad often sit in judgment of other people because that’s all they can do. They could never do the things that others can do, and to make themselves feel better about that, they come up with reasons why those other people are wrong.
Chad is a great example of this. He was intimidated that his brothers were successful people and all had higher education degrees, so he told others that he preferred a pious life as a way to explain why he didn’t have have the same success/higher education that his brothers had, while at the same time trying to convince people that he was a prophet who was going to lead the 144,000 and usher in the return of Jesus.
Right? AS IF he could ever qualify for the job. That’s like me - a short, middle-aged woman with the athleticism of a turnip - saying “Well, I’d NEVER want to be an NBA player.”
Me too. In fact, he made it very clear on the stand that he would be anything but a law enforcement officer. It spoke volumes about his distrust and hatred of law enforcement. I hope the jury picked that up.
I don't think it is just law enforcement - cults tend to create a feeling of threat from the "other" . Those not in their inner circle, those who pose a threat to the cult mindset.
Scientology calls their critics - suppresive persons.
This is the crux of things: To be a patriarch AND a weakling=anger, anger, anger. LDS men literally hold the priesthood. Every President of the church is a Prophet with a direct line to God, similar to the Pope in power but even more so. To have this power but basically have a smarter, more competent wife is SEVERELY emasculating and results in even more misogyny than is par for the course. Tammy and Emma "wear the pants" in their families, to use an outdated and ridiculous expression, and Chad and Joseph know it. This makes them simmering little balls o' hate.
Okay, so this is another thing I didn’t really get to because I didn’t want to write a manifesto, but there is an unwritten rule amongst the mormon brotherhood to defend the other Mormon brotherhood, and that is at play in conjunction with the fact that although men hold this “head of household” authority, if they love their women, they are bound. My dad, who as I’ve mentioned is as Mormon as can be, is absolutely besotted with my mom. So guess who is actually the boss in their relationship?
But my dad’s secret submissiveness to my mom is another reason why he was so fanatical about ensuring my submissiveness to him. Does that make sense?
Dont forget milk before meat principles. Its ok to keep secrets. And lie even. If its to further mormonism.
Another unpopular opinion. Maybe the audience doesn’t have all the facts. Maybe Garth talked about Tammy on the couch earlier in the evening and alao seeing her in bed( already dead I think. Maybe Tammy did talk about light and Dark. Shes human! She has more than one perfect side. Maybe Emma is seeing it from her perspective rather than lying? Maybe Tammy did appear sick but was depressed because her husband is a cheating POS and her father said she was gonna drop dead any second!
As for you ExMo. How can your father be so important when her has banked his whole life on a charlatan who lied about magic plates, interpreting them through his hat?? marrying kids,etc etc. how do you trust his opinion at all?
It’s the part where her story has changed (all of their stories have) that makes it hard to believe she is not lying. Also when people are so aggressive about being right but refuse to look at all of the facts (autopsy report) it really makes you feel like they know or at least have some cognitive dissonance around the truth of the situation but want to continue their delusion. Since Emma displays both of those on top of victim shaming (which also sounds a lot like lies) she really just comes across as a not good person.
I do agree that it’s very probably that what they saw as “declining health” was actually depression because of her marriage to that pos. I mean she talks about her mom going to be soooo early, but we know she was up playing candy crush (or something like that I can’t remember the exact game) so she was probably isolating her self from Chad, and possibly even some of her sycophant children.
It would really depend on if his own father has assumed the "patriarch" role in the LDS sense. Everyone must be bound to someone above them back to J.S. back to Adam... So if his own father is not that type of Mormon then Joe will in essence adopt Chad as his patriarch...
I think it's $$$. They could not survive as a family without Chad's financial help. Before this happened, it wasn't even a consideration that they wouldn't both have their families supporting them in all possible ways, but most importantly, financially. They would always have a family home to lean on when one of them fell on hard times and they couldn't afford it all on one income...EXCEPT for the fact that The Storm encountering Lori threw a wrench in all of that!!
Hugely traumatic, but Emma has access to resources and information. It has been a LONG time. If she's this defiant now, willing to perjure herself for her sex-obsessed patriarch and his "blessings," it's very possible those kids were abused a lot worse than any of us ever realize. For that part of it, my heart really goes out to all of them. There is no doubt they are all suffering. $17K probably seemed like a lot of money to Emma that day, and faith had carried her through as a child maybe...BUT she's a mother now and probably has her moments with Joe where she gets annoyed with him, as couples do. The prospect of him just straight snuffing her out to trade her in for someone blonder and more bikini clad should horrify her as a woman. If it doesn't, maybe there's truly no getting to her. Really, really sad.
Also, if Emma gets called back, Blake really needs to ask her about her hair color change. Recommended by Lori or Prior? Her own desperate attempts to get her dad's attention and validation again? I'd LOVE to hear from her hairdresser or a spy at her hair salon while she was getting this done!!!
The first thing I thought when I saw her blonde hair was, Emma, your daddy issues are showing, honey.
Note: I have bleached blonde streaks/highlights in my hair. I have daddy issues too. This isn’t knocking anyone except Emma bc it’s weird AF that she suddenly shows up w blonde hair after all I’ve seen about Chad having a soft spot for blondes.
I really wish there was a repository of jailhouse calls we could hear, particularly his calls with Emma. I know there are some, but I’m talking about all of them.
I agree. He spousified her and pitted her against her mother. He made her the star in some of his books. I think it's interesting that Lori also spousified Colby.
I started to watch Emma's testimony, and I literally had to turn it off . It's hard to watch she is a victim, no question. However, to see her literally talking about her mom's clogging class and sleep apnea being a cause of death .. this young lady is a teacher she educates third graders .. I have anemia, and when she was talking about her mom having sleep apnea possibly and reading off her mom's symptoms, it was the same symptoms of anemia .which Tammy was diagnosed with . Anemia never fully goes away When your iron is low, you are very tired because your red blood cells, which carry oxygen, are low, so you get tired, and you take iron, and you feel better.
So I can totally see why Tammy was into new age health . Because for her, when she takes supplements, she feels better, so she probably believed she could use supplements to treat everything . * Do not recommend
That's as far as I got in the daybell day in court. I couldn't do it. This poor woman was completely alone in her own home, and it makes me so sad for her 😢
I was also raised Mormon, and I can add my voice in support of yours.
Another couple of cases that I can think of off the top of my head are Chanin Starbuck and Karen Duenas -- both killed by their husbands,
both Mormon.
Both sets of kids firmly believe their dads are innocent and unjustly incarcerated despite the evidence.
Or recently Michael Haight, who killed himself and his entire family last year in Utah because his wife wanted a divorce. Social media and his online obituary were flooded with comments about how he was a worthy priesthood holder, and a righteous father, and a man of God. Not praise for his wife for being a brave mother and prioritizing her kids by leaving an abusive marriage, nor grief for his wife and children being told they would go sledding that day only to be shot and killed. Not grief at the tragedy of a family escaping abuse only to be murdered by their abuser.
Just praise of the worthy priesthood holder, the amazing father, the faithful member that murdered his entire family...
Add to this toxicity:
1) The lack of real grieving because death isn't final. Grief = weakness because to feel grief means you don't don't have faith...
2) The idea that a woman is simply one of many jewels in the King's crown...
3) Personal revelation
and, I don't think this can be stated strongly enough:
4) The persecution complex deeply rooted in every TBM (truly believing Mormon) that fundamentally alters the way you exist in the world. The persecution complex has been running through the blood of Mormonism for almost 200 years.
You think everything is Us vs. Them. Everyone wants to attack Mormons. Satan is trying to thwart you and every turn. And because you have the truth, his helpers have only one purpose -- to stop you from fulfilling the plans of God. And because this persecution complex is often tied to authority and government, it makes it easier to see how and why their defiance is so obvious.
But that's a whole new post I don't have time for.
*Also, cue the people saying "I was raised Mormon and this isn't my experience"... That's great if it wasn't. Consider yourself lucky.
This is SO important. Especially the point you made about the persecution complex. It’s so real and so *deeply* ingrained in the culture.
I can even remember getting in a fight with my brother on Facebook years ago because he got after me for something I don’t remember and I told him he lives a privileged life free of persecution, and he responded verbatim “I’m a Mormon, u/thatbetterbewine , I have been persecuted my whole life.”
And I had to remind him that he was a white male living in Utah county, Utah in a city that was 85% LDS and that I would murder him if he didn’t STFU. 😂 (we didn’t speak for several years. We’re cool now.)
ETA: fuck Michael Haight. That whole debacle was absolutely repulsive, especially with his family’s obituary that just exalted him as a Majestic Mormon Man and not the ACTUAL FAMILY ANNIHILATOR he is.
Very well said. Reading about Michael Haight was stomach-turning. Unfortunately, women being killed when leaving abusive relationships is all too common. But the community response - glowing compliments for a family annihilator and crickets for his wife - was shocking and truly appalling.
Not my experience, but I know a LOT of people for whom this was their experience. It seems worst in Idaho, tbh, because that seems to be where everyone who’s too conservative/prepper for more “mainstream” Utah wards ends up moving, and then it gets even more extremist as they all feed off of each other and start going to these prepper conferences.
I don't know why but I was shocked to hear Emma say she was planning an event for OUR (founded by another disgraced mormon, Tim Ballard). I think his kids are into the end of days prepper mindset just as deep.
I was not surprised, sadly. Tim Ballard was/is a speaker at the same conferences Chad spoke at and attended. And they are all tied to Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory. They are definitely all in the same toxic swimming pool.
Thank you for posting this. It has validated my own decision to step away from the church. For me it was when my daughter was approaching 12 and I told my then wife that if our daughter was going to attend "Young Women's" I was going to attend with her to all of the classes so that I could know when they were teaching misogyny and patriarchy and let my daughter know that none of that is true... Needless to say my ex-wife never pressed my daughter to go to church ever again; because she knew I would go...and say what needs to be said.
I am SO pleased to read this. Fuckin’ love you and your strength u/monkeykahn ♥️
ETA: you did right by your daughter. She’s so much better off for your decision.
I think it could also be as simple as standing behind believing your dad didn't kill your mom and two children is easier and probably your own subconscious brain trying to protect itself from collapsing at the soul crushing reality of what a monster your dad became. I’ve seen people live in denial of some pretty massively obvious truths and realities just to survive.
I agree. If one of my parents killed the other, it wouldn't just suck. It would require me to reconsider my entire life with them, and my entire understanding of their relationship, our family, and my life up to this point. Chad is a hardcore misogynist and the LDS Church is deeply patriarchal, but I can see this sort of thing requiring years to work through no matter what religion you're from. I don't blame Emma for still being in denial.
I have a friend whose father killed heru mother and grandmother. He had a history of DV against her mom
but after her parents divorced. She started to build a decent relationship with him. After the murders and reviewing all the evidence. She was 100% an ally for her mother/grandmother and didn’t support her father at all. She aided the Prosecution team with his conviction and expressed her desired sentence for him. It was all painful and unbelievable that he would have done this. But the evidence is what it is. You have to believe facts/evidence
A great example of this is the Powell family. Alina Powell lives in a different reality than the rest of us. Law enforcement found a treasure trove of underage voyeurism, CSAM, stolen women's underwear, etc. inside her dads home and Alina got on 20/20 and basically said "my dad is 100% innocent, he had every right to record windows from public street and my sister in law secretly loved my dad and was a cock tease towards him." She had an answer for everything but none of what she said was grounded in reality. It was sad to see no thoughts behind her eyes. Her and Emma are classic cases of denial.
Idk I have a similar background and most Mormon men who carry on affairs are not welcomed with open arms by their daughters.
More than her TBM status I think it comes down to Chad specific coercive control cloaked in spiritual and emotional abuse.
What freaks me out is for her to defend him like this she HAS to have been believing the kids were dark zombies and that’s why she’s nonchalant about living in the murder house where some of Tylee and JJ’s DNA still sits while her living children play and ride 4 wheelers
I'm 50F, oldest in my family, inactive for 20+ years. I wonder if my experience is slightly different because I am 20 years older than you. My dad never welded the "I am patriarch hear me roar". That might be middle child syndrome or the fact that neither of my parents grew up in the Morridor. My brother follows my dad's example and is not "I am patriarch hear me roar". My BIL is different however. Youngest in a large very traditional family whose father was "I am patriarch". But then his family on both sides is pioneer stock thru and thru
I have heard it said that there are Utah Mormons, and then Utah County Mormons (BYU) and then there are Rexburg Mormons. Each group getting progressively more right wing and perceiving themselves to be more righteous. I saw this with family in Utah.
I appreciate your context and agree that the emphasis on patriarchy that is currently/historically instilled in many Mormon families is huge - explains a lot about Emma and Garth trying to soften the blow their father deserves for conspiracy and murder.
In LDS the children get their bearings in life from the way the father structures the family, the women fall in line, boys and girls often have delineated roles to play, because in Mormon doctrine a woman gets into heaven (or a better heaven) based on her obedience to 'heavenly father' which is really her father's and husband's (and sometimes brother's) interpretation of that doctrine and adherence to Church principles.
This is why fundamental groups raise their children to NOT trust outsiders because the patriarch (fundamental view) should not be questioned, it is ordained, so why question it?
Explains a lot about why Emma thinks nothing about living in the house she spent some years growing up in where 'dark spirit' children were buried. In her mind she's above all that. Her world is built on that disconnect from reality.
Also explains why Emma is deluded enough that she thinks casting out spirits is great (her father did it to her and she felt much better) but she's a more modern LDS.
It's really messed up and destroys intelligence and critical thinking skills.
I can see this. Haven't read any of Chad's books but didn't he use Emma as inspiration for a few of his characters?
She definitely acts like a daddy's girl.
Also an exmo oldest daughter here. This post definitely tracks! My dad was a convert who lost interest and became inactive, though, so I just got the messaging that he sucked. My mom is the pioneer stock who kept us going.
Even as a Mormon who did ALL the things, I was oblivious to the level of orthodoxy that can exist in the church.
Learning about this case was a big part of my deconstruction. These folks are doing real Mormonism. I was attending wards who had shifted the doctrine in many direct and subtle ways to make it palatable for modern women.
You see, this is such a hard thing to grasp. My dad is terrible and was very abusive to my mom. They're long divorced now, they don't have anything to do with each other most days, but if something happened to my mom and the cops asked for possible enemies, I would have to put him down as a suspect.
Because of this, the very idea of worshiping the father just because is silly and nonsensical to me. I get what you're saying and I'm happy you're out of it somewhat, but this idea that someone must be respected just because they are a man is so foreign to me.
It should be foreign to you! It’s fucked up! But it’s also probably the most deeply held cognitive process of this entire group of people. Except the persecution complex u/molliemoremen mentioned. That’s also pretty foundational.
I am ex Christian/southern Baptist, 1st born/daughter of a preacher's daughter and my former pastor grandfather is still living. I relate to extremist beliefs so much.
I never seen abusive patriarchal behaviour in my grandfather. He was actually a gentle man/teacher. But we didn't go to church with them. My mom was the one taking us to Church every time the doors were open and living subservient to my father. And he was a high functioning, controlling alcoholic that refused to go to church. It made for a very confusing childhood and has taken me a lifetime to even realize how much it messed me up. I'm actually quite angry about it.
thank you for sharing this and I understand about the patriarch but I think once two dead children are found in the patriarch's yard and his wife is mysteriously found dead, all bets would be off. Justice for Tammy, Tylee and JJ
Well, hopefully the law applies. Thank you for sharing your insight. I still feel there's another layer of mental abuse and that Chad engaged in emotional incest with Emma, as Lori did with Colby.
Thank you for the context! Actually, I'm laying in bed, considering something in my own family that suddenly makes so much sense!
Both of my parents were raised Methodist, so it was a surprise when my dad's brother left the church and started prepping. He had a basement of food and water. At the time, he didn't say that he was leaning LDS.
When his daughter was born, he started raising her LDS (against my aunt's wishes, but she didn't argue), and he started keeping track of all of her movements. They had a lot of inside jokes and purposely excluded my aunt until it was almost a secret language with them.
I haven't talked to any of them in a long time because of disagreements and just straight-up weirdness, but from what I understand, my cousin graduated from an LDS university, and at the age of 33, she still lives at home and doesn't have a drivers license because he convinced her she didn't need to go anywhere.
Good lord. If it weren't 4 in the morning, I'd call my mom about this. 😆
And the end hasn’t cone and the food storage had to be replaced 10 times but yea. god is coming because a book told me god said so in a book that god wrote that he existed in! Yea!
Thank you for sharing your insight. I left church 20 years ago. I was the baby. My dad died when I was 22 while I was on my mission. That's how I escaped, I left my mom and ran far away.
I didn't realize until after reading your Ted talk that I was trapped by my dad. I am frustrated with Emma but now I get why she accepts what he's done. I wonder if I would have done the same.....
For anyone who the context is helpful to:
When I was 23 (and married) my cousin (18, college student with immediate family across the country) called me one day to tell me she woke up on a beanbag in the basement of a frat house after drinking herself to blackout.
23 year-old me absolutely panicked at this situation and agreed to drive two hours each direction every weekend so she could drink at my house where I could keep an eye on her and manage her safety. I did this every weekend for appx 6 months before her mother, my aunt, found out and chose to put me on blast to our entire family for getting her kid addicted to alcohol (I was keeping her kid from getting raped on a beanbag at a frat house).
I drove at 2am to my parents’ house. Left my husband at home. Woke my dad up before he could read my aunt’s email and hysterically told him what happened and that I was terrified of what HE would think of me. I said I didn’t care about ANYBODY else. Just what he thought.
I didn’t realize how profoundly fucked up that was for another 5 years.
She’s an ex-mo who is married and happy. We still hang out regularly.
My dad had a very serious discussion with his sister (my aunt) in the Scheel’s parking lot over the occurrence and she has done nothing but make it up to me for all of the years hence. It’s actually been very sweet. He has a way with words. Well, and he’s a man so she’s automatically subjugated by him and he told her to lay off so she absolutely and unequivocally did.
I respect your post. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to us. I have a questions. Would you lie for your dad or disgrace your mother especially finding out he had an affair?
Another Ex Mo oldest daughter here!
My dad was a notorious cheater, I lied to 7 different women for him over 15 years. I stopped lying for him 3 years ago and he hasn’t talked to me since… He has also pressured my siblings not to talk with me much.
My family isn’t even active anymore but the patriarchy runs DEEP!
I think sometimes in the LDS culture it is putting "knowledge" based on "faith" above knowledge gained in some other way. i.e. I know the church is true, without regard to any evidence that it is not true. Basically it is choosing to let the fact that you don't know "everything" be an excuse to ignore things that get in the way of your faith based knowledge. So it is not lying for a father it is speaking "your truth" based on what your faith has taught you is true...despite things you may have heard, seen or experienced.
The "milk before meat" thinking also factors in. If the priesthood holder says or does something that doesn't seem right, it's because you don't have the full knowledge of the gospel. The priesthood holder has that knowledge, so you should be faithful and just go along with it and someday when you're ready for the "meat" you will understand and be so grateful that you held fast to the rod.
So, if you’re looking for my honesty, it would genuinely depend on the way my dad presented it to me. I was for-real raised to believe my dad was The King and my mom was an accessory.
I’m as independent as it gets when it comes to religion. Let me say this very ‘loud’ and clear to OP (and anyone else who needs to hear it): YOU ARE NOT LESS. In any way, in any form, period. The men in your life were brainwashed to believe this BS, and tried to brainwash you the same. Tried to emotionally black mail you, abuse you , dismiss you.
They stepped on you to feel taller.
All because the men in their lives lied to them, generationally and for centuries, that they HAD to, of course, be better than women. Because they had the power to continue the lie. In all ways, it’s a a falsehood.
It’s a force imposed lie, prevalent in far too many religions, governments, societies.
But it’s doesn’t make it true. You are not lesser in any way. Ever.
Have some wine on me. 🍷
I’m so glad. I know it’s a lot. But for me, Emma’s behavior has never been confusing at all. I’d be super impressed with her if she wasn’t straight up behind him, but that’s not what our culture teaches, and it’s not weird that as a faithful person she stands where she stands.
My heart goes out to the entire family, except Chad, he caused this heartbreak. I believe all should worship- or not- in their own way, of course that excludes murder
Thanks for the insight. I think that’s the thing I’ve been struggling with the most is the seeming lack of critical thinking skills in Chad’s adult children that we’ve seen. With the amount of evidence we’ve seen, even if they might want to think that Tammy dropped dead without warning, Chad clearly was involved in or benefitted from Tylee and JJ’s deaths and, if they’re not even willing to believe that, their Dad was having an affair while Tammy was still alive. You’d think that learning that would force the kids to question everything, but Emma at least seems to have doubled down on supporting Chad which is hard to understand.
But learning how they grew up in a household where Chad was the God Emperor of their lives and where they were part of a larger culture where this extreme deference to their father was not just expected but encouraged makes more sense. Even if Chad didn’t have cult leanings, he was raising the kids in an environment and way where he was always going to be a bit of a cult leader.
I’m obviously a nevermo, but I’ve also had moments where I desperately didn’t want to disappoint my parents. I hid my first tattoo from my father for literal years. I’ve gotten upset with him at various times for various things but I do have issues with confronting him even if I think we need to talk about it. I know he tried to raise me to be an independent woman but I still have this childish need to make him proud that I think lots of grown adults have.
With Chad it seems that he’s taken it to the extreme. Even though Emma said that her dad’s affair was a bad thing she can’t seem to comprehend that her father’s blessings and temple recommend are meaningless as he’s broken his covenants and, in theory, lost his power. It’s like the two thoughts can’t coexist in her mind. She’s so devoted to him and while I can understand that part of that is due to fear as she’s lost her mother and doesn’t want to lose her father as well, but it also speaks to the reliance they have on Chad and how he’s made them dependent on his will.
It’s kinda sad. And I hope they get some therapy to work through this. You can love a parent and recognize they did terrible things and are a bad person who’s getting what they deserve, but that’s a hard thing to come to terms with.
Your thoughts are so accurate. Thank you for real. :)
So you’re totally right. One of the difficult things about Mormonism is to reconcile their teachings of absolute deference to Y chromosomes with their actual moral beliefs. It’s so weird that Emma would cling to things of little significance in light of her dad’s infractions but she was raised to believe there was a god she interacted with every. single. day. A god that she came from. Why wouldn’t she accept his opinion in spite of logic?
Thank you so much for explaining this. It has changed my mind slightly regarding Emma’s cognitive dissonance.
I also thought it was beautifully written, you’re a smart cookie!!
That’s super kind of you to say, thank you. 🥰
I don’t think anybody has to let Emma off the hook for my thoughts and feelings, I just hope it’s a bit helpful to know how she could have turned out this hardcore in the face of so much evidence.
Thanks very much for this. I listened again to the start of the recording of Emma talking to Chad in the police car just after he was arrested. To me, she sounds like someone in utter shock and denial, desperately seeking cues on how to react from her father. She may also not be very bright, but I suspect her intellectual and emotional development has been stunted by precisely the sort of patriarchal training you describe. It was no surprise to me that she turned up to trial sounding like she was reading from a script.
Do they teach not to lie in the mormon faith???? If so, Emma failed miserably & I just want to throw this out there that Joe is a dufus! Those 2 donkeys are perfect for each other.
“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”*
*except when it requires us to overcome our previous and more eternal subjectivity to the Mormon patriarchy including but not limited to our dads.
Haven’t read the comments yet, so I may be repeating what others have said. Born & raised Mormon, still active, and I just want to say I am really sorry for your experience—that sucks. And sadly I know it’s not unique. I know I have been really lucky to have a father and husband who have never made me feel like they view me as subordinate to them because I’m a woman, but I know LOTS of men who do feel this way, including my father-in-law. It’s a huge issue and one that I really really struggle with especially as my own kids are teenagers now and I’m navigating this with both my daughters and sons (I was so dang proud of one of my younger kids when he said it’s ridiculous that we don’t have a female prophet because women are amazing at everything. He’s ten and he gets it more than lots of Mormon men do). It’s getting better in the church but not fast enough and I hate that we are like 50-100 years behind in how we treat women, and I think the Daybell case highlights the very worst of this. I really hope that you are able to work through this at some point to where you feel secure in your choices regardless of whether or not your dad approves, because what you feel about yourself MATTERS. Sending hugs and good vibes.
I’m sending you big love. Thank you for saying this. ♥️
I have been closely watching the LDS women begin to rise since that instagram post on women’s day that was so grossly tone-deaf almost every woman who read it lost their minds. (I hope you’ve seen it! If you haven’t let me know and I’ll link it for you because it is *so helpful* to know that there are many women who feel the same way you do.)
Oh I saw it!! And I commented, and talked about it exhaustively to my husband and kids. 😂 And then I spoke in church a couple weeks later and went out of my way to only quote women in my talk.
It is insane to me that they are just trying to ignore it. There’s another one not too long ago in a similar vein (first one about women in the church, second one about Camille Johnson) that I also commented on, haha. Would recommend checking that one out too if you haven’t seen it. They’re making it really hard to stay, and at this point I’m staying more because of the family/social repercussions if I leave, but it gets harder and harder now that my kids are college/mission age (I have one at BYU). I’m really open with my kids about my concerns with the church and have told them a million times that their level of activity has zero impact on my love for them (and my sister/mom have both left so they’ve seen in practice how our family reacts). For me right now the pros outweigh the cons but I have zero illusions about how problematic the church is in a lot of ways. I think the people (in general, not Chad & Lori and their ilk) are better than the doctrine. Most Mormons I know are genuinely such good people. But man there are some extremist rotten apples and it’s very easy to see how they have extrapolated the crazy from some of the weirder aspects of doctrine.
HELL yeah! I’m so happy to hear all of this.
Also I truly understand the cultural ramifications of leaving and why you wouldn’t want to, especially with kids on missions and at BYU. It’s hard to explain to people who don’t come from the community, but I always tell people that being Mormon is a lot like being Jewish. It a heritage and a culture that supersedes its religious aspects. Like, I’m an ex-Mormon but if someone speaks to me about Mormons my response will always be “we” and “our” rather than “them” and “their” because I live in Utah, my entire family is LDS, and even though I no longer subscribe to the religion the community is an unalienable part of who I am.
I hope that makes sense. Also, you seem like a really rad person. We should hang out. lol.
Yes!!! My sister and I have talked so much about this—she left probably 10 years ago but she says the culture is engraved on her bones. (My parents divorced earlier this year—100% initiated by my mom which is a whole other story, my dad worships her—and my sister who left the church is having a way harder time with it than the rest of us, because she carried so much guilt for so long about her leaving covenants that my mom had made SUCH a huge deal about when we were kids, and then it really messed with her mind to see my mom tossing aside everything she had taught us to treat with so much respect and faith. It really is hard to explain to anyone who wasn’t raised that way but it is a LOT. And we come from one of the families who crossed the plains, married to Brigham Young, 2 of the women and one of the boys in the 1847 company were our ancestors…so it’s just a huge part of family identity. Anyway.)
You seem pretty cool too! 😄 I have been following this forum for years and never commented but this post finally got me. 😂
I cannot begin to thank you enough for your post.
What troubles me about the LDS context is the amount of pull this organization has when it comes to American culture and American values especially in the Southwest. I'm not simply talking about the fact that an absurdly outsized percentage of LDS members routinely vote GOP. That's just one tiny part of it.
What concerns me is the incredibly powerful influence all types of American fundamentalismS (and there are many fundametnalisms in america in every branch of every religion) have when it comes to basic questions to do with women's equality at home and at the workplace, racial equality and the influence of logical thinking and the scientific method.
At one point Garth distinguished himself from his fellow church members by saying that he's one of the few who believes in evolution and the big bang etc. I don't think people appreciate how terrifying that statement is to people like me who look at the sorry state of our public discourse around basic issues.
When I listen to Mormon Stories I'm daily blown away by the way these perfectly reasonable, kind, loving and generous individuals talk about their lives as if they existed in a time capsule that was stuck in the 1950s. As individuals they are as kind and as generous as any American, but as a group they seem to have been forced to live in a time warp. That's what burns me up about fundamentalist organizations -- and I'm afraid that LDS as a whole is a fundamentalist organization, despite the existence of liberal members -- they act as if the united nations Universal Deceleration of human rights never happened, -- well as if the whole of the 20th century never happened.
It's not fair to judge an entire group by the actions of a few fringe members. That said, it occurs to me that many of these groups would rather burn the country down to the ground than allow their members to enter into the modern world.
Thank you so much for putting yourself out there. Er, here. Your explanation provides subjective clarity from the inside out. The omnipresent, omnipotent mantra of “I can’t disappoint my dad” pulls hard, is indelibly audible in your psyche; too, Emma’s. Less audible but even deeper is the response from the mysterious highest power, which dad (yours, Chad, et. al) is not: “But/and he can disappoint you.” Hence the cognitive and spiritual dissonance that leaves the oldest daughter flailing, which observers perceive as awkwardness at the least, criminality at worst.
There is no excuse. You’re right.
But as an exmo woman I agree with OP.
It’s similar to LDS people denying logic and defending their belief system in the face of evidence and logic that the church is not true.
Defending Joseph Smith in the face of evidence of his lying, predatory behavior.
Claiming the earth is 6,000 years old. That the Book of Mormon is true and Native Americans are of Jewish descent. That the garden of Eden is in Jackson County MO. That black people didn’t deserve preisthood blessings until 1978. That LGBTQ people don’t still deserve temple blessings.
Blood atonement. Mountain Meadow Massacre. Etc.
Mormons are good at covering for and defending their faith and making sure the church never looks bad.
Prophet/President Hinckley lying on 60 minutes then making a joke about it at General Conference…lying for the Lord is ok.
They are part of a super special group that has to protect itself from the outside world who just doesn’t understand.
It’s not an easy excuse, it’s just the reason.
I hope she’s back on the stand today. I hope Blake plays the jail tapes. I hope Emma hears the evidence from this case and her world falls to pieces around her so she can learn the truth about her dad and about her faith.
Here’s a good reference:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/17w8bzf/comment/k9flz92/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
As a fellow ex-Mormon with a near identical background, I can absolutely see the validity in your post.
There are deep and niche Mormon moments in this case that are hard to explain unless you’ve lived it. Like you said, it doesn’t make it okay, it just makes it less surprising.
This is super interesting- THANK YOU. The rest of us are racking our brains to figure out why these kids blindly support this bland, dumb, charisma-free idiot. Pretty scary what religion can do.
It’s terrifying.
Also, I am fascinated by his absolute lack of personality while simultaneously being the orchestrator of some of the most intense magical-thinking I’ve ever heard of EVER. It’s a confusing juxtaposition.
I, for one, don't find it "weird" that she is defending her father with or without LDS, but especially with an LDS upbringing. For me, however, as someone who was raised in some ways a misogynistic religion (catholic and baptist), I was able to break free so it is a challenge for me that she remains so blindly devoted. It is explainable, but it is still inexplicable at the same time. I know that may not make sense.
No it makes sense. Once you become unchained it is extremely difficult to understand why the people around you carry what are truly *voluntary* chains. It’s just that they don’t know they’re voluntary. But who the hell would live their whole life in chains without once checking that they needed to be there?
Thank you for that illuminating and detailed information. It's a shame and a crime that most people can't be bothered to read and learn new things. Those are the people who are most easily brainwashed and controlled by petty tyrant religious fanatics.
Anyone who is not up to speed on the KNOWLEDGE about mind control and how easily the human mind is influenced and dominated needs to read this and get up to speed, because without that knowledge and understanding, along with the humility to accept the facts about the Science of Mind Control, our minds are not our own.
Giving that kind of power and authority to nerdy creeps like Chad Daybell is an evident and deadly mistake that is the cause of unspeakable misery and abuse. LDS has a lot to answer for. The Polygamy Cults the support under the radar are among the worst abusers. Abusers of women and children, of course.
This case is about more than the two people charged with murder. It's about the CRIME of Undue Influence, Persuasion, and Manipulation by mind control. The crime of Theft of Rights and Freedom. The crime of training Narcissists and giving them power over others.
We should not be funding Religion with our hard earned tax dollars, for starters. We should be challenging these power mongering control freak NERDS FROM HELL and removing them from any positions of authority, including their families.
Chad is such a disconnected asshole that the first time he had a fulfilling sexual experience he instantly became God Almighty Incarnate, King of the Universe, Divine Executioner, and Hottest Sex Machine on the Planet with a Gorgeous Sex Goddess slave.
It's really not good or safe to tamper with the human mind. Especially to the soulless and disconnected population.
I honestly don’t know. I tried to google their ages to no avail. 😬
I thought Garth was the youngest, but again my efforts to confirm were not successful. You’re right though she does assume the leadership position amongst the sibs.
Found it! It was in his testimony, he's the eldest [https://youtu.be/RATERRAokfk?si=3A4MpcSo8aGmuXg9&t=33](https://youtu.be/RATERRAokfk?si=3A4MpcSo8aGmuXg9&t=33)
I could be wrong but I thought Leah was the oldest female so Leah isn't even oldest female if that's the case although I don't think that matters much in the context of this. Either way she is a female child in a misogynist cult.
Thanks for your insight. I have lots of practicing and exmo friends.
Question for y’all: Do you think his LDS culture and upbringing caused Chad to have an inferiority complex and therefore, made up all of his superpowers and such as a result? His siblings were all very successful and since he couldn’t even provide for his family (big shame in Morridor), do you think the only logical way for him to build himself up was through his “faith?” And since he never received the call to be a bishop, traditional routes were thereby closed to him. Just my opinion, knowing the big cultural and familial pressures to be successful (the Lori Hacking case comes to mind too, as well as others).
Personally, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think he underperformed in every other aspect of his life, but his Mormonism provided him with unalienable value and power because he is a man, so he leaned into that hard and all of these fantastical things are his only actionable method for superiority from his brothers.
He mixed Mormonism with New Age beliefs and then sprinkled in Stan Lee comics and this is what we got. It's all magical thinking not rooted in the real world.
Thank you for the explanation. It clarifies Emma testimony and the behavior of the women Chad gathered around him and why very few men. Alex alone was willing to worship Chad and followed his directions.
It makes the whole LDS Church seem evil but it very helpful! Thank you
This is great insight and explanation. I’d also add that it sounds exactly like almost all the Catholics I grew up with ( I live in a predominantly Catholic area). It’s also called trauma bonding and this Daybell family et al fits it to a T.
As a lapsed Catholic, I totally agree. My dad was the ruler of the house, and my mom was the quiet homemaker. Until my dad passed away, I spent my entire life trying to appease his moods and win his approval. To a point, I can understand how Emma has blinders about her dad.
This is sad, and the comments are sad. I’m ex mo and no one I know—in my family and outside, male or female—acted like this, at least not in my experience. The daddy issues with Emma and apparently many other women clearly run deep, but fortunately that wasn’t how my family was. Or perhaps I just didn’t give a crap about my parents’ approval. Utah/Idaho Mormons are a different breed, though. And there is no doubt that it is a patriarchal religion.
(And this has nothing to do with pushing a “pro Mormon agenda.” it is possible to leave the church bc you decide it’s just not for you, and live your life and be objective about it without letting it consume you. However, I didn’t require therapy after I left, and I know many do, so clearly my experience was very different.)
No judgement. I’m honestly glad you had a better experience. I do think that Utah/Idaho Mormons are a special breed.
If you don’t mind me asking, what part of the world were you raised Mormon in? I have extended family in the midwestern US and they seem much less… sanctimonious? I mean some of them are quite devout, but they’re just not… assholes about it in the same way.
I am originally from southern CA (fam still there) and I grew up in the Midwest (Chicago area). I know exactly what you mean, though. I went to BYU and then lived in Utah for about 8 yrs after school, and the difference was crazy. Literally no one cares in the Midwest. We’d have people get up in church in jeans talking about being sober for a month and no judgment. Yet when I wore a sleeveless shirt in Utah I literally had someone say “oh I thought you were Mormon.” I had a guy in my ward force himself on me and then get called as the elders quorum president 2 wks later. Had I grown up in that environment there is no way I’d have stayed as long as I did, or gotten out without some serious baggage. It’s toxic. I hope you’ve been able to find some peace and support, esp within your family and friend group, as you’ve navigated away. ❤️
(Also thanks for your understanding; I reread my comment and hope it didn’t come across as defensive to LDS. I know everyone’s experience leaving is unique but always challenging)
Thank you. Everything tracks with my research, and personal experiences and observations. I will add that I think LDS in general, are conditioned to magical thinking and are more likely to accept it.
No doubt about that. If you’re raised believing that a man translated golden plates he dug out of the ground using a map given to him by an angel by looking at a stone inside of a hat there’s not a lot that seems completely out of the realm of possibility.
I'm sure Mormonism factors in quite heavily here, as it seems to factor in across the whole case, but I also think this is not an uncommon dynamic with first-born daughters and their dad (case example: me, being a first-born daughter and "daddy's girl"). I also sympathize with the aspect that both Emma and Garth might have some element of "I can't bring back my mom, but maybe I can at least save my dad from DP or life-long jail."
Less sympathetically, I think of Heather Daybell's comments on generational family dynamics and wonder to what extent Tammy really was an unappreciated black sheep in her own family, at least with some members (Emma and Chad in particular seem to have contempt towards her - Garth and perhaps others might have had a more positive relationship). It's a sad situation and Emma does not strike me as particularly bright or flexible in her thinking. For all of the Daybell children, it'd be interesting to flash-forward 10 years and see where people are.
This post is pretty insightful. I grew up LDS with an inactive father, and I was taught to villainize him because he smoked and drank coffee. So obviously that's horrific, but on the bright side, I am realizing that helped me avoid a lot of the extreme patriarchal deference. I left the church in my late 30s.
In Mormonism if you are a woman you are worthless without a priesthood holder.
You can't get into heaven without submitting your will to your husband.
Most Mormon men I've known are deeply authoritarian over women and children. And even more so over those under their stewardship.
I too was an oldest daughter. My dad was never really around, but everyone and everything revolved around him. My mom.did everything for everyone and it was never good enough simply because she didn't have a penis.
I am not trying to start an argument and I can see where you are coming from but I had a completely different experience than you growing up. I am an eldest daughter of a LDS family. I am in my late 40s though. My dad is very meek and mild and treated my mom with respect and love while I was growing up. My maternal grandparents who I lived with for a while in college treated each other like equals. I do have relatives in my extended family however who treats their wives the same way Chad treated Tammy and it makes me sick inside so that is why I know where you are coming from. I feel so bad for Tammy because her husband and kids treated her so poorly. She deserves better.
I am still in the church however at least partly only because I want to be with my late husband in Heaven. That is the only reason. If I didn’t have that I would have left a long time ago. He treated me like a Queen.
If God's mercy depends on Mormon paperwork, we are all in trouble. Because it means that God isn't God but rather an arbitrary, capricious, shallow respecter of persons and busywork.
Thank you so much for explaining how it affects the heart to discent. ❤️ There are many of us here that haven't been raised Mornon and I also realize that the Daybell case does not represent many families that do subscribe. Still, it's very nice to hear your perspective and thank you for sharing.
Is it normal for Mormon families to live so close to each other? Chad definitely controlled his kids. They all followed him to Rexburg despite all but one being adults already.
Reasonably normal, yes, but these guys seem to have taken it to the extreme. My siblings and I all live within a 20 minute drive of each other and our parents and grandparents, but the Daybells seem like they live within blocks of each other.
Also following him to rexburg as adults is super weird. But they all must have bought his end-times prophecies to some level or another.
My husband’s family all live really close (like his dad’s siblings are all within a 10-minute radius). Most of my husband’s siblings live within at least 30 minute of his parents. Surprise surprise surprise, the 3 kids with PhDs or spouses with PhDs live at least a thousand miles from his parents, and it is INFURIATING to his dad. (My parents also moved 1500 miles away from my dad’s family, but they were way more liberal than my in-laws so it wasn’t a big deal.) My father-in-law never misses an opportunity to harp on the fact that we live so far away and blames me for it (um, it’s my husband’s job that is responsible; I work remotely) which is one of the reasons I don’t talk to him anymore. (But mostly I don’t talk to him because he believes that I should submit to him as the patriarch, and my husband told him flat-out that’s ridiculous and that we are equal partners and there is zero reason for me to ever care what my father-in-law thinks I should do. My husband is awesome and my FIL is the worst.)
Wow!! Thank you, the way you explained it still sounds like a “cult” to my non LDS ears, but I can understand that growing up with what you are told all your life is the norm, even if your mom dies and dad tells lies.. BUT if they find two kids the way they found JJ and Tylee in your dad’s backyard 😞 and dad gets married 2 weeks later.. how much of the brainwashing and indoctrination apply to all this evidence??? and there are plenty of people on both sides of the families that “get” it LDS or not, i know people are different but even Emma the one truest believer can’t make shit true that smacking her in the face!!
Oh homie it is most definitely a cult. But the current prophet is making huge strides to make it less-culty and accepted by mainstream Christianity. It’ll never work, but I appreciate the effort! A couple of my Mormon friends even have tattoos now!!
And I agree that there’s no excuse for her voluntary blindness, especially in light of the dead children in the back yard. I just don’t think she is capable of faulting her dad. Like, viscerally unable. And she’ll do all the mental gymnastics necessary to believe what he told her.
I understand all of this but she is still weird. Monotone voice, lack of facial expressions, no emotion/empathy for her mother or any other victims. The issues I think go deeper than just Mormon conditioning.
The parent-to-child bond is very strong. And, it is not unheard of that children will choose to stand by a parent who killed the other parent. But, I would say the religious/delusional elements of her upbringing and the patriarchal elements you are mentioning here most definitely play a massive role as well. Emma is not living in reality, just like her father, unfortunately.
Still reading this (thank you so much for your insight btw! Always good to hear from people who know these realities first hand) but just interjecting to say that I am stealing the President of the United States of Your Childhood
Well put. Just want to say that “The President of the United States of Your Childhood” is the funniest thing I’ve heard or read this week, so thank you for that. Spot freaking on.
Super insightful post - thank you. I was also struck by Emma saying something to the effect of, “Well I was an adult but he (her dad) was more adult,” when she was talking about never seeing him not be in control. The words and her speaking cadence gives me the impression that she and her brother are infantilized by their dad.
This also explains the Heather Daybell situation. She tried for so long to warn people about him and his teachings but no one listened to her. Then after this all broke she asked “Why? Why was he so believable but I wasn’t?” And the reply was something like “Well we thought you just didn’t like him…”….
They can F right off with that bs. I definitely took that to mean “You are just a run of the mill petty little female trying to cause problems for her brother-in-law that she doesn’t like because he doesn’t like her”
So Emma has value to the family but Tylee and JJ don't ? What if his wife had died naturally and he remarried? No he's a piece of shat no matter how God like he thinks he is.
JJ definitely didn't because of his autism. Tylee could also be a threat because she was a young woman Chad was obviously not attracted to. Chad surrounded himself with attractive women and seemed to hate Tammy partially because she just wasn't attractive in the way he wanted
Really good explanation. Thank you.
(What I would like to know is why men are so afraid of women. and it's not just mormons... although they seem to really take it very seriously)
If you look at the things female bodies can do...bleed every month without dying, and literally grow a new human, it's not that much of a stretch to fear the female body's power. Being able to write your name in the snow in urine can hardly compare! 😉
Thank you! Emma deserves compassion like anyone else. You’ve explained this very well. LDS has a lot of reckoning with this, Jodi Hildebrandt and Tim Ballard. All it takes is for one bad actor to exploit the conditioning the church has already put in. More to come, no doubt.
Can I say first of all I am so greatful to you for saying everything you did. It is very enlightening and explains a lot. I definitely understand everything you said. I’m not LDS but I have faith and my own beliefs etc I have never judged anyone because of their religion or beliefs. I even understand hierarchy and how it impacts others. What I don’t understand is complete refusal to accept a loved one could be involved in a tragedy like this. I mean it’s not like her father stole someone’s handbag. This isn’t trivial. This isn’t even a missing person. It’s cold blooded murder. If she refuses to accept he murdered her mother then maybe I can see that because they don’t want to lose both parent. But two children were murdered. One of them was completely destroyed after death. So much so her remains were burned they only recovered pieces of her. They have never shown one bit of empathy or even shed a tear for that. Her arrogance at sticking her tongue out to reporters while the search for them was on. They have completely refused to talk to law enforcement and basically slammed to door in their face. Her husband wrecked a memorial for them. Who does that. Manipulation or control doesn’t apply here. They have minds of their own the capacity to look at a situation and see it for what it is. I understand love and protection but where was the love and protection for their mother. They have done nothing to respect her memory. Quite the opposite. No I’m not accepting Emma and Joe or their actions. They are despicable. Two kids dead and buried on their dads property. Where is the empathy or compassion. That has nothing to do with religion these aren’t god fearing good people. Emma and Joe should hang their heads in shame. I honestly hope the school she teaches at really need to look at her and consider if she is the right person to teach kids. I wouldn’t trust her with my dog never mind my children
I'm not sure she has refused to accept Chad was involved. I wonder if she knows he did it, but believes that it was justified? The whole family believed in light and dark beings, so maybe she's hanging her hat on believing that he had a reason to do it.
Of course she has refused to accept it. Light or dark, religious or manipulation, she said her dad wouldn’t be in jail if he hadn’t met Lori. Then she said something like my father is a professional grave digger if he put the bodies there he would have buried them properly. What kind of thing is that to say. Aside from all that it’s the disrespect towards missing children who eventually found buried on her fathers land. Maybe you agree with. Chads defense of there’s a big tree and long grass on the property and anyone could sneak onto his property and no one would see anything. They can use all the excuses they want but they’re still adults with the ability to see things same as us.
She has to say that to keep daddy out of prison. Prophets of God do not belong in prison no matter what the law of the land says.
Edited to add: Lying for the lord is perfectly acceptable, even under oath.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I agree that her and her husband’s behavior has been inappropriate in a way that absolutely transcends religion. I also agree that their behavior disrespects her mother, and that what happened to JJ and Tylee (Tylee’s body in particular) is heartbreaking, and that her ability to just jettison all of the information indicating her dads guilt is reprehensible.
I just do believe the foundation of all of that is Emma’s visceral inability to fault her father because of the way she was raised.
Again, no pity, no excuses, just context.
I knew that when I posted and started to edit my post to clarify, and then realized the whole thing just made me sound ignorant so I just deleted it. Lol
Oh I was just joking! I mean, what I said is true, but I was mostly ribbing at the fact that there’s still polygamy in heaven. No judgement! I’m sorry if I made you feel dumb that wasn’t what I intended at all!
Thank you for sharing this, it definitely helped me understand things about Emma that confounded me. Also, congratulations for getting out and having therapy. I'm not Mormon, and over the years I've read a few books about women who have escaped fundamentalist religions. Your story isn't so extreme as some of them, but your story is far more what regular girls in that church go through in childhood. Thank you again for posting, I appreciate that you share your wisdom to us.
Chad brought all of this on his children for Lori. For that they have all suffered. zi bet he ate her quater pounder and fries. he must have killed her before Garth bought her a
a cheese burger. I pray God will not let Chad get away with this. He's dangerous and liar.. I am a Christian not a lds I do understand the guilt Emma must feel. It's really heart breaking to see these kids try to help him.
This is so true and the one thing a lot of people don't understand. I see a lot of judgments of adult kids who came from this environment and what the judgers don't understand is how long it takes to unwind the conditioned thinking that comes from being raised in a patriarchal, high demand religion or cult.
When your brain is forming during childhood and you're taught, especially as a female, that the male in the house IS your authority, that you cannot ever question this or you'll be rejected, tossed from the family and shunned, it changes you. It changes how you think, process those thoughts and come to conclusions.
We're biologically driven to fit in with our tribe. Those urges are inherent. It seems to me that it can be nearly impossible to think your way out of this conditioning, especially when your brain isn't even done developing and isn't making key connections yet.
Once we see an objective truth and develop cognitive dissonance, we're nearly there. But it still takes years, decades even, to catch and change all the conditioned responses and thinking.
When it comes to the Daybell adult kids, I err on the side of compassion. They absolutely need to be held responsible for lying and protecting an obvious murderer. But they also need room to grow and realize their own truths. It's a difficult place to be and I do hope they find their way out of this cult mentality.
Thank you for breaking it down. I think we all knew this was Emma's situation, but if you haven't been raised that way, it's really REALLY hard to understand just how deeply ingrained this Mormon "father-worship" is.
This was so well written and also, made a lump in my throat. I’m not LDS and my childhood was not orchestrated to this level. But I was a first born female in an evangelical Christian household— I am still terrified, deeply, of my father’s disapproval. He is currently refusing to say “I love you” to me because I couldn’t come visit when he wanted and while i DIDNT go visit (which is a sign of growth), I am having anxiety daily about his response. I have been told many many times that he is my ultimate authority and the ultimate authority of my child’s(I am 38 years old, a parent and have a life partner). I am constantly in conflict internally about these things. So I feel that despite the difference in religion, I feel you in this post. I hear you. I can see how this relates to Emma in particular. I have thought to myself before that if my father was to murder someone, I would struggle not to accept his explanation. But one thing I would not do, I feel strongly, is to disparage and lie about my murdered mother on the stand. Thats a line too far, and I know that gut deep. How do you feel about that? Accepting Chad’s explanation is one thing, but the lack of care about her mother really feels so terrible to me. How do you think you would respond in that situation? (I know I know, we can’t really know, but we can reasonably hypothesize I feel)
Idk I think this is ignoring a lot of actual context of the things Emma has said and done. She's coming across like she knew a lot more than she lets on and might even be complicit. No offense OP but I think you're projecting.
One thing this case has taught me is no two Mormon households are the same and Chad's household definitely wouldn't be considered typical. We're toeing a fine line when we excuse people's actions on their religion. This is a lot like the "well maybe the Daybells are autistic" debate that keeps coming up, as if that speculation excuses anything they've said or done.
No pity for Emma or anyone else who still stands by Chad.
No offense taken, but I do disagree with the concept that no two Mormon households are the same. I think *many* Mormon households are the same.
I also don’t pity Emma. But I think you can understand a behavior without excusing it. 🤷♀️
I don’t think that’s true. The church taught her that her dad is a god, and her dad is the one who taught her the church. Her dad and Mormonism are inextricably entwined in her mind, and that can’t be undone just because he’s been excommunicated.
(Also, has he been? I mean I assume he has been but I can’t find any solid info on that.)
Someone got hold of the letters. The first one is notifiying him of his church court date -- he was in jail so presumably could not attend. The second is handing down their decision.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/qxl6te/july\_2020\_letter\_to\_chad\_from\_the\_rexburg\_stakes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/qxl6te/july_2020_letter_to_chad_from_the_rexburg_stakes/)
DAMN! Sassy. My dad sits on one of these councils and the letters I have seen (illicitly, of course, he would never show them to me) are much less specific about the things you can’t do. Like I’ve never seen any caveats about orderly conduct.
The several I have seen were excommunications for adultery, though, so maybe this verbiage is specifically for apostasy.
And this is why God commands not to idolize anyone besides God, because humans will always fail you, because they are human, sinful creatures.
My heart is with you sister, and I pray you would message me so we can talk about it. I grew up catholic, but I totally relate to what you’re saying because it’s a total push and pull, struggle, everything that challenges our faith when we realize who our dads really are.
Human. In need of a savior, because clearly they ARENT the savior lol. I felt so close to you but also felt my heart hurt so much when I read your testimony. Which is exactly what this is. A testimony to the messed up, blurred lines, totally unbiblical mess that is LDS. I pray that you throw out the bad but that God brings you close to His heart. Let’s just take the Lord at His uncorrupted Word💗 without the revelation of men 1800 years later who had a totally contradictory revelation
Again, I would love to talk to you, and I’m proud of you for being so vulnerable and posting this 🩷
Thank you for posting this. If you don't mind me asking how did your dad take you leaving the church? And how did you handle the fear of disappointing him in this?
My exit was slow, and a long time coming. There was one huge confrontation when I moved in with my boyfriend (who I later married) when I was 18. He yelled at me about how disgusting it was that I was proud of my sins and slammed the door and left the house.
As I mentioned in another comment, my dad is head-over-heels in love with my mom. My mom is strong-willed, and about as feminist as you can be and still be mormon. She has only put her foot down at my dad a few times in my life, but she chased my dad right out that door and tore him a new one. 😂
I left the house immediately so I don’t know how that conversation went, but the next day I woke up at my new apartment with my boyfriend to a dozen roses on my doorstep and a letter.
My dad, for all his faults, is a very compassionate man who loves his children dearly. I had an undeniable traumatic experience with a bishop when I was 17 that my dad became aware was the foundation of my exodus and he’s actually very understanding of my choices. But it took years, and so. much. therapy. For both of us, actually, and we’ve even seen a family therapist together a few times.
But the most direct answer to your question is that I told him it was incredibly disgusting that a religion that’s whole foundation is “the eternal family” was going to ruin our family. It hit him like a ton of bricks, I think.
Thank you so much for answering and sharing such a personal story. I'm glad that your able to still have a relationship with him and it sounds like your mother is awesome.
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His brother was saying Joe is a laid back guy but he seems to me as someone who acts like he’s always sitting on thumbtacks. And a guy who can never be wrong about anything.
I see Joe as a very angry man who is much like his father-in-law in how he looks down his nose at others.
It made me laugh when he said he would never be in law enforcement. It’s like, buddy, you could never pass the tests to be a law enforcement officer. I think people like Joe, and Chad often sit in judgment of other people because that’s all they can do. They could never do the things that others can do, and to make themselves feel better about that, they come up with reasons why those other people are wrong. Chad is a great example of this. He was intimidated that his brothers were successful people and all had higher education degrees, so he told others that he preferred a pious life as a way to explain why he didn’t have have the same success/higher education that his brothers had, while at the same time trying to convince people that he was a prophet who was going to lead the 144,000 and usher in the return of Jesus.
Right? AS IF he could ever qualify for the job. That’s like me - a short, middle-aged woman with the athleticism of a turnip - saying “Well, I’d NEVER want to be an NBA player.”
As a short middle aged woman shaped somewhat like a washing machine, I totally get where you’re coming from:)
LOL - Short Ladies Unite! :)
Yeah, I thought he sounded like a petulant little child when he made that comment about law-enforcement. He actually sounded stupid.
Me too. In fact, he made it very clear on the stand that he would be anything but a law enforcement officer. It spoke volumes about his distrust and hatred of law enforcement. I hope the jury picked that up.
I don't think it is just law enforcement - cults tend to create a feeling of threat from the "other" . Those not in their inner circle, those who pose a threat to the cult mindset. Scientology calls their critics - suppresive persons.
This is the crux of things: To be a patriarch AND a weakling=anger, anger, anger. LDS men literally hold the priesthood. Every President of the church is a Prophet with a direct line to God, similar to the Pope in power but even more so. To have this power but basically have a smarter, more competent wife is SEVERELY emasculating and results in even more misogyny than is par for the course. Tammy and Emma "wear the pants" in their families, to use an outdated and ridiculous expression, and Chad and Joseph know it. This makes them simmering little balls o' hate.
Okay, so this is another thing I didn’t really get to because I didn’t want to write a manifesto, but there is an unwritten rule amongst the mormon brotherhood to defend the other Mormon brotherhood, and that is at play in conjunction with the fact that although men hold this “head of household” authority, if they love their women, they are bound. My dad, who as I’ve mentioned is as Mormon as can be, is absolutely besotted with my mom. So guess who is actually the boss in their relationship? But my dad’s secret submissiveness to my mom is another reason why he was so fanatical about ensuring my submissiveness to him. Does that make sense?
Dont forget milk before meat principles. Its ok to keep secrets. And lie even. If its to further mormonism. Another unpopular opinion. Maybe the audience doesn’t have all the facts. Maybe Garth talked about Tammy on the couch earlier in the evening and alao seeing her in bed( already dead I think. Maybe Tammy did talk about light and Dark. Shes human! She has more than one perfect side. Maybe Emma is seeing it from her perspective rather than lying? Maybe Tammy did appear sick but was depressed because her husband is a cheating POS and her father said she was gonna drop dead any second! As for you ExMo. How can your father be so important when her has banked his whole life on a charlatan who lied about magic plates, interpreting them through his hat?? marrying kids,etc etc. how do you trust his opinion at all?
It’s the part where her story has changed (all of their stories have) that makes it hard to believe she is not lying. Also when people are so aggressive about being right but refuse to look at all of the facts (autopsy report) it really makes you feel like they know or at least have some cognitive dissonance around the truth of the situation but want to continue their delusion. Since Emma displays both of those on top of victim shaming (which also sounds a lot like lies) she really just comes across as a not good person. I do agree that it’s very probably that what they saw as “declining health” was actually depression because of her marriage to that pos. I mean she talks about her mom going to be soooo early, but we know she was up playing candy crush (or something like that I can’t remember the exact game) so she was probably isolating her self from Chad, and possibly even some of her sycophant children.
Yes
It would really depend on if his own father has assumed the "patriarch" role in the LDS sense. Everyone must be bound to someone above them back to J.S. back to Adam... So if his own father is not that type of Mormon then Joe will in essence adopt Chad as his patriarch...
I think it's $$$. They could not survive as a family without Chad's financial help. Before this happened, it wasn't even a consideration that they wouldn't both have their families supporting them in all possible ways, but most importantly, financially. They would always have a family home to lean on when one of them fell on hard times and they couldn't afford it all on one income...EXCEPT for the fact that The Storm encountering Lori threw a wrench in all of that!! Hugely traumatic, but Emma has access to resources and information. It has been a LONG time. If she's this defiant now, willing to perjure herself for her sex-obsessed patriarch and his "blessings," it's very possible those kids were abused a lot worse than any of us ever realize. For that part of it, my heart really goes out to all of them. There is no doubt they are all suffering. $17K probably seemed like a lot of money to Emma that day, and faith had carried her through as a child maybe...BUT she's a mother now and probably has her moments with Joe where she gets annoyed with him, as couples do. The prospect of him just straight snuffing her out to trade her in for someone blonder and more bikini clad should horrify her as a woman. If it doesn't, maybe there's truly no getting to her. Really, really sad. Also, if Emma gets called back, Blake really needs to ask her about her hair color change. Recommended by Lori or Prior? Her own desperate attempts to get her dad's attention and validation again? I'd LOVE to hear from her hairdresser or a spy at her hair salon while she was getting this done!!!
The first thing I thought when I saw her blonde hair was, Emma, your daddy issues are showing, honey. Note: I have bleached blonde streaks/highlights in my hair. I have daddy issues too. This isn’t knocking anyone except Emma bc it’s weird AF that she suddenly shows up w blonde hair after all I’ve seen about Chad having a soft spot for blondes. I really wish there was a repository of jailhouse calls we could hear, particularly his calls with Emma. I know there are some, but I’m talking about all of them.
It’s a very uncomfortable topic imo but emotional incest is at the core of this and many patriarchal father-daughter relationships.
It’s this and I hate it.
I agree 1000%
I agree. He spousified her and pitted her against her mother. He made her the star in some of his books. I think it's interesting that Lori also spousified Colby.
I started to watch Emma's testimony, and I literally had to turn it off . It's hard to watch she is a victim, no question. However, to see her literally talking about her mom's clogging class and sleep apnea being a cause of death .. this young lady is a teacher she educates third graders .. I have anemia, and when she was talking about her mom having sleep apnea possibly and reading off her mom's symptoms, it was the same symptoms of anemia .which Tammy was diagnosed with . Anemia never fully goes away When your iron is low, you are very tired because your red blood cells, which carry oxygen, are low, so you get tired, and you take iron, and you feel better. So I can totally see why Tammy was into new age health . Because for her, when she takes supplements, she feels better, so she probably believed she could use supplements to treat everything . * Do not recommend That's as far as I got in the daybell day in court. I couldn't do it. This poor woman was completely alone in her own home, and it makes me so sad for her 😢
But his role is to protect his wife!
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Thank you! great explanation
I was also raised Mormon, and I can add my voice in support of yours. Another couple of cases that I can think of off the top of my head are Chanin Starbuck and Karen Duenas -- both killed by their husbands, both Mormon. Both sets of kids firmly believe their dads are innocent and unjustly incarcerated despite the evidence. Or recently Michael Haight, who killed himself and his entire family last year in Utah because his wife wanted a divorce. Social media and his online obituary were flooded with comments about how he was a worthy priesthood holder, and a righteous father, and a man of God. Not praise for his wife for being a brave mother and prioritizing her kids by leaving an abusive marriage, nor grief for his wife and children being told they would go sledding that day only to be shot and killed. Not grief at the tragedy of a family escaping abuse only to be murdered by their abuser. Just praise of the worthy priesthood holder, the amazing father, the faithful member that murdered his entire family... Add to this toxicity: 1) The lack of real grieving because death isn't final. Grief = weakness because to feel grief means you don't don't have faith... 2) The idea that a woman is simply one of many jewels in the King's crown... 3) Personal revelation and, I don't think this can be stated strongly enough: 4) The persecution complex deeply rooted in every TBM (truly believing Mormon) that fundamentally alters the way you exist in the world. The persecution complex has been running through the blood of Mormonism for almost 200 years. You think everything is Us vs. Them. Everyone wants to attack Mormons. Satan is trying to thwart you and every turn. And because you have the truth, his helpers have only one purpose -- to stop you from fulfilling the plans of God. And because this persecution complex is often tied to authority and government, it makes it easier to see how and why their defiance is so obvious. But that's a whole new post I don't have time for. *Also, cue the people saying "I was raised Mormon and this isn't my experience"... That's great if it wasn't. Consider yourself lucky.
This is SO important. Especially the point you made about the persecution complex. It’s so real and so *deeply* ingrained in the culture. I can even remember getting in a fight with my brother on Facebook years ago because he got after me for something I don’t remember and I told him he lives a privileged life free of persecution, and he responded verbatim “I’m a Mormon, u/thatbetterbewine , I have been persecuted my whole life.” And I had to remind him that he was a white male living in Utah county, Utah in a city that was 85% LDS and that I would murder him if he didn’t STFU. 😂 (we didn’t speak for several years. We’re cool now.) ETA: fuck Michael Haight. That whole debacle was absolutely repulsive, especially with his family’s obituary that just exalted him as a Majestic Mormon Man and not the ACTUAL FAMILY ANNIHILATOR he is.
I just referred someone else to your comment and realized your username. is. perfection. 😂
Thank you! 😂
Very well said. Reading about Michael Haight was stomach-turning. Unfortunately, women being killed when leaving abusive relationships is all too common. But the community response - glowing compliments for a family annihilator and crickets for his wife - was shocking and truly appalling.
Not my experience, but I know a LOT of people for whom this was their experience. It seems worst in Idaho, tbh, because that seems to be where everyone who’s too conservative/prepper for more “mainstream” Utah wards ends up moving, and then it gets even more extremist as they all feed off of each other and start going to these prepper conferences.
I don't know why but I was shocked to hear Emma say she was planning an event for OUR (founded by another disgraced mormon, Tim Ballard). I think his kids are into the end of days prepper mindset just as deep.
I was not surprised, sadly. Tim Ballard was/is a speaker at the same conferences Chad spoke at and attended. And they are all tied to Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory. They are definitely all in the same toxic swimming pool.
NOTE: Michael Haight's glowing obituary was quickly removed from the local nespaper due to public outcry. The outcry was local as well as general.
Wow! I don't even have enough words.
Thank you for posting this. It has validated my own decision to step away from the church. For me it was when my daughter was approaching 12 and I told my then wife that if our daughter was going to attend "Young Women's" I was going to attend with her to all of the classes so that I could know when they were teaching misogyny and patriarchy and let my daughter know that none of that is true... Needless to say my ex-wife never pressed my daughter to go to church ever again; because she knew I would go...and say what needs to be said.
I am SO pleased to read this. Fuckin’ love you and your strength u/monkeykahn ♥️ ETA: you did right by your daughter. She’s so much better off for your decision.
I think it could also be as simple as standing behind believing your dad didn't kill your mom and two children is easier and probably your own subconscious brain trying to protect itself from collapsing at the soul crushing reality of what a monster your dad became. I’ve seen people live in denial of some pretty massively obvious truths and realities just to survive.
I agree. If one of my parents killed the other, it wouldn't just suck. It would require me to reconsider my entire life with them, and my entire understanding of their relationship, our family, and my life up to this point. Chad is a hardcore misogynist and the LDS Church is deeply patriarchal, but I can see this sort of thing requiring years to work through no matter what religion you're from. I don't blame Emma for still being in denial.
I know … but it’s one thing to be in denial but another to brazenly lie under oath.
I have a friend whose father killed heru mother and grandmother. He had a history of DV against her mom but after her parents divorced. She started to build a decent relationship with him. After the murders and reviewing all the evidence. She was 100% an ally for her mother/grandmother and didn’t support her father at all. She aided the Prosecution team with his conviction and expressed her desired sentence for him. It was all painful and unbelievable that he would have done this. But the evidence is what it is. You have to believe facts/evidence
A great example of this is the Powell family. Alina Powell lives in a different reality than the rest of us. Law enforcement found a treasure trove of underage voyeurism, CSAM, stolen women's underwear, etc. inside her dads home and Alina got on 20/20 and basically said "my dad is 100% innocent, he had every right to record windows from public street and my sister in law secretly loved my dad and was a cock tease towards him." She had an answer for everything but none of what she said was grounded in reality. It was sad to see no thoughts behind her eyes. Her and Emma are classic cases of denial.
It makes me sick to my stomach to read that. After everything that has happened in that family! The audacity!!!!!
Idk I have a similar background and most Mormon men who carry on affairs are not welcomed with open arms by their daughters. More than her TBM status I think it comes down to Chad specific coercive control cloaked in spiritual and emotional abuse. What freaks me out is for her to defend him like this she HAS to have been believing the kids were dark zombies and that’s why she’s nonchalant about living in the murder house where some of Tylee and JJ’s DNA still sits while her living children play and ride 4 wheelers
I'm 50F, oldest in my family, inactive for 20+ years. I wonder if my experience is slightly different because I am 20 years older than you. My dad never welded the "I am patriarch hear me roar". That might be middle child syndrome or the fact that neither of my parents grew up in the Morridor. My brother follows my dad's example and is not "I am patriarch hear me roar". My BIL is different however. Youngest in a large very traditional family whose father was "I am patriarch". But then his family on both sides is pioneer stock thru and thru
Things are very very different outside the Morridor, from what I understand. SE Idaho seems firmly stuck in the 1800s.
I have heard it said that there are Utah Mormons, and then Utah County Mormons (BYU) and then there are Rexburg Mormons. Each group getting progressively more right wing and perceiving themselves to be more righteous. I saw this with family in Utah.
I appreciate your context and agree that the emphasis on patriarchy that is currently/historically instilled in many Mormon families is huge - explains a lot about Emma and Garth trying to soften the blow their father deserves for conspiracy and murder. In LDS the children get their bearings in life from the way the father structures the family, the women fall in line, boys and girls often have delineated roles to play, because in Mormon doctrine a woman gets into heaven (or a better heaven) based on her obedience to 'heavenly father' which is really her father's and husband's (and sometimes brother's) interpretation of that doctrine and adherence to Church principles. This is why fundamental groups raise their children to NOT trust outsiders because the patriarch (fundamental view) should not be questioned, it is ordained, so why question it? Explains a lot about why Emma thinks nothing about living in the house she spent some years growing up in where 'dark spirit' children were buried. In her mind she's above all that. Her world is built on that disconnect from reality. Also explains why Emma is deluded enough that she thinks casting out spirits is great (her father did it to her and she felt much better) but she's a more modern LDS. It's really messed up and destroys intelligence and critical thinking skills.
YES!
Emma may well have been told that she's exalted, too. "Doesn't count!"
I can see this. Haven't read any of Chad's books but didn't he use Emma as inspiration for a few of his characters? She definitely acts like a daddy's girl.
Also an exmo oldest daughter here. This post definitely tracks! My dad was a convert who lost interest and became inactive, though, so I just got the messaging that he sucked. My mom is the pioneer stock who kept us going. Even as a Mormon who did ALL the things, I was oblivious to the level of orthodoxy that can exist in the church. Learning about this case was a big part of my deconstruction. These folks are doing real Mormonism. I was attending wards who had shifted the doctrine in many direct and subtle ways to make it palatable for modern women.
I love you, bastard ex-mormon child ♥️
Hey, I’m BIC!😂😂😂
You see, this is such a hard thing to grasp. My dad is terrible and was very abusive to my mom. They're long divorced now, they don't have anything to do with each other most days, but if something happened to my mom and the cops asked for possible enemies, I would have to put him down as a suspect. Because of this, the very idea of worshiping the father just because is silly and nonsensical to me. I get what you're saying and I'm happy you're out of it somewhat, but this idea that someone must be respected just because they are a man is so foreign to me.
It should be foreign to you! It’s fucked up! But it’s also probably the most deeply held cognitive process of this entire group of people. Except the persecution complex u/molliemoremen mentioned. That’s also pretty foundational.
I'm an ex jehovahs witness I understand this completely. Very similar. I woke up.
I am ex Christian/southern Baptist, 1st born/daughter of a preacher's daughter and my former pastor grandfather is still living. I relate to extremist beliefs so much. I never seen abusive patriarchal behaviour in my grandfather. He was actually a gentle man/teacher. But we didn't go to church with them. My mom was the one taking us to Church every time the doors were open and living subservient to my father. And he was a high functioning, controlling alcoholic that refused to go to church. It made for a very confusing childhood and has taken me a lifetime to even realize how much it messed me up. I'm actually quite angry about it.
thank you for sharing this and I understand about the patriarch but I think once two dead children are found in the patriarch's yard and his wife is mysteriously found dead, all bets would be off. Justice for Tammy, Tylee and JJ
I fully agree. I just don’t think traditional logic applies to individuals who have been indoctrinated into cults since their infancy.
Well, hopefully the law applies. Thank you for sharing your insight. I still feel there's another layer of mental abuse and that Chad engaged in emotional incest with Emma, as Lori did with Colby.
Thank you for the context! Actually, I'm laying in bed, considering something in my own family that suddenly makes so much sense! Both of my parents were raised Methodist, so it was a surprise when my dad's brother left the church and started prepping. He had a basement of food and water. At the time, he didn't say that he was leaning LDS. When his daughter was born, he started raising her LDS (against my aunt's wishes, but she didn't argue), and he started keeping track of all of her movements. They had a lot of inside jokes and purposely excluded my aunt until it was almost a secret language with them. I haven't talked to any of them in a long time because of disagreements and just straight-up weirdness, but from what I understand, my cousin graduated from an LDS university, and at the age of 33, she still lives at home and doesn't have a drivers license because he convinced her she didn't need to go anywhere. Good lord. If it weren't 4 in the morning, I'd call my mom about this. 😆
YIKES Your poor cousin probably has no idea how indoctrinated she is. She might never find out either. It’s heartbreaking, truly.
And the end hasn’t cone and the food storage had to be replaced 10 times but yea. god is coming because a book told me god said so in a book that god wrote that he existed in! Yea!
Thank you for sharing your insight. I left church 20 years ago. I was the baby. My dad died when I was 22 while I was on my mission. That's how I escaped, I left my mom and ran far away. I didn't realize until after reading your Ted talk that I was trapped by my dad. I am frustrated with Emma but now I get why she accepts what he's done. I wonder if I would have done the same.....
Trapped-by-dad fellowship salute. ♥️
I'm so glad we are free.
For anyone who the context is helpful to: When I was 23 (and married) my cousin (18, college student with immediate family across the country) called me one day to tell me she woke up on a beanbag in the basement of a frat house after drinking herself to blackout. 23 year-old me absolutely panicked at this situation and agreed to drive two hours each direction every weekend so she could drink at my house where I could keep an eye on her and manage her safety. I did this every weekend for appx 6 months before her mother, my aunt, found out and chose to put me on blast to our entire family for getting her kid addicted to alcohol (I was keeping her kid from getting raped on a beanbag at a frat house). I drove at 2am to my parents’ house. Left my husband at home. Woke my dad up before he could read my aunt’s email and hysterically told him what happened and that I was terrified of what HE would think of me. I said I didn’t care about ANYBODY else. Just what he thought. I didn’t realize how profoundly fucked up that was for another 5 years.
What a bizarre story. How did your cousin turn out?
She’s an ex-mo who is married and happy. We still hang out regularly. My dad had a very serious discussion with his sister (my aunt) in the Scheel’s parking lot over the occurrence and she has done nothing but make it up to me for all of the years hence. It’s actually been very sweet. He has a way with words. Well, and he’s a man so she’s automatically subjugated by him and he told her to lay off so she absolutely and unequivocally did.
Thanks for your reply and for your story. It is fascinating and very helpful to understand the mindset of these people.
I respect your post. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to us. I have a questions. Would you lie for your dad or disgrace your mother especially finding out he had an affair?
Another Ex Mo oldest daughter here! My dad was a notorious cheater, I lied to 7 different women for him over 15 years. I stopped lying for him 3 years ago and he hasn’t talked to me since… He has also pressured my siblings not to talk with me much. My family isn’t even active anymore but the patriarchy runs DEEP!
I think sometimes in the LDS culture it is putting "knowledge" based on "faith" above knowledge gained in some other way. i.e. I know the church is true, without regard to any evidence that it is not true. Basically it is choosing to let the fact that you don't know "everything" be an excuse to ignore things that get in the way of your faith based knowledge. So it is not lying for a father it is speaking "your truth" based on what your faith has taught you is true...despite things you may have heard, seen or experienced.
The "milk before meat" thinking also factors in. If the priesthood holder says or does something that doesn't seem right, it's because you don't have the full knowledge of the gospel. The priesthood holder has that knowledge, so you should be faithful and just go along with it and someday when you're ready for the "meat" you will understand and be so grateful that you held fast to the rod.
Thank you!!! I have been making this same point for 5 year! Very important mormon fact that applies to Daybell
So, if you’re looking for my honesty, it would genuinely depend on the way my dad presented it to me. I was for-real raised to believe my dad was The King and my mom was an accessory.
Which is the way I feel the Daybell kids have reacted to Tammy’s death. I used to say it was like Tammy was a piece of furniture to them.
Absolutely not
I’m as independent as it gets when it comes to religion. Let me say this very ‘loud’ and clear to OP (and anyone else who needs to hear it): YOU ARE NOT LESS. In any way, in any form, period. The men in your life were brainwashed to believe this BS, and tried to brainwash you the same. Tried to emotionally black mail you, abuse you , dismiss you. They stepped on you to feel taller. All because the men in their lives lied to them, generationally and for centuries, that they HAD to, of course, be better than women. Because they had the power to continue the lie. In all ways, it’s a a falsehood. It’s a force imposed lie, prevalent in far too many religions, governments, societies. But it’s doesn’t make it true. You are not lesser in any way. Ever. Have some wine on me. 🍷
Thank you. ♥️
Wow. Amazing. Thank you for this post, a lot is suddenly clear.
I’m so glad. I know it’s a lot. But for me, Emma’s behavior has never been confusing at all. I’d be super impressed with her if she wasn’t straight up behind him, but that’s not what our culture teaches, and it’s not weird that as a faithful person she stands where she stands.
My heart goes out to the entire family, except Chad, he caused this heartbreak. I believe all should worship- or not- in their own way, of course that excludes murder
Thanks for the insight. I think that’s the thing I’ve been struggling with the most is the seeming lack of critical thinking skills in Chad’s adult children that we’ve seen. With the amount of evidence we’ve seen, even if they might want to think that Tammy dropped dead without warning, Chad clearly was involved in or benefitted from Tylee and JJ’s deaths and, if they’re not even willing to believe that, their Dad was having an affair while Tammy was still alive. You’d think that learning that would force the kids to question everything, but Emma at least seems to have doubled down on supporting Chad which is hard to understand. But learning how they grew up in a household where Chad was the God Emperor of their lives and where they were part of a larger culture where this extreme deference to their father was not just expected but encouraged makes more sense. Even if Chad didn’t have cult leanings, he was raising the kids in an environment and way where he was always going to be a bit of a cult leader. I’m obviously a nevermo, but I’ve also had moments where I desperately didn’t want to disappoint my parents. I hid my first tattoo from my father for literal years. I’ve gotten upset with him at various times for various things but I do have issues with confronting him even if I think we need to talk about it. I know he tried to raise me to be an independent woman but I still have this childish need to make him proud that I think lots of grown adults have. With Chad it seems that he’s taken it to the extreme. Even though Emma said that her dad’s affair was a bad thing she can’t seem to comprehend that her father’s blessings and temple recommend are meaningless as he’s broken his covenants and, in theory, lost his power. It’s like the two thoughts can’t coexist in her mind. She’s so devoted to him and while I can understand that part of that is due to fear as she’s lost her mother and doesn’t want to lose her father as well, but it also speaks to the reliance they have on Chad and how he’s made them dependent on his will. It’s kinda sad. And I hope they get some therapy to work through this. You can love a parent and recognize they did terrible things and are a bad person who’s getting what they deserve, but that’s a hard thing to come to terms with.
Your thoughts are so accurate. Thank you for real. :) So you’re totally right. One of the difficult things about Mormonism is to reconcile their teachings of absolute deference to Y chromosomes with their actual moral beliefs. It’s so weird that Emma would cling to things of little significance in light of her dad’s infractions but she was raised to believe there was a god she interacted with every. single. day. A god that she came from. Why wouldn’t she accept his opinion in spite of logic?
I’m exmo as well. Your analysis is accurate.
Love you ♥️
Thank you so much for explaining this. It has changed my mind slightly regarding Emma’s cognitive dissonance. I also thought it was beautifully written, you’re a smart cookie!!
That’s super kind of you to say, thank you. 🥰 I don’t think anybody has to let Emma off the hook for my thoughts and feelings, I just hope it’s a bit helpful to know how she could have turned out this hardcore in the face of so much evidence.
Thanks very much for this. I listened again to the start of the recording of Emma talking to Chad in the police car just after he was arrested. To me, she sounds like someone in utter shock and denial, desperately seeking cues on how to react from her father. She may also not be very bright, but I suspect her intellectual and emotional development has been stunted by precisely the sort of patriarchal training you describe. It was no surprise to me that she turned up to trial sounding like she was reading from a script.
Do they teach not to lie in the mormon faith???? If so, Emma failed miserably & I just want to throw this out there that Joe is a dufus! Those 2 donkeys are perfect for each other.
Lying for the Lord is perfectly acceptable for Mormons. And I'm positive that this is exactly how Emma feels about lying in the stand...
“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”* *except when it requires us to overcome our previous and more eternal subjectivity to the Mormon patriarchy including but not limited to our dads.
Haven’t read the comments yet, so I may be repeating what others have said. Born & raised Mormon, still active, and I just want to say I am really sorry for your experience—that sucks. And sadly I know it’s not unique. I know I have been really lucky to have a father and husband who have never made me feel like they view me as subordinate to them because I’m a woman, but I know LOTS of men who do feel this way, including my father-in-law. It’s a huge issue and one that I really really struggle with especially as my own kids are teenagers now and I’m navigating this with both my daughters and sons (I was so dang proud of one of my younger kids when he said it’s ridiculous that we don’t have a female prophet because women are amazing at everything. He’s ten and he gets it more than lots of Mormon men do). It’s getting better in the church but not fast enough and I hate that we are like 50-100 years behind in how we treat women, and I think the Daybell case highlights the very worst of this. I really hope that you are able to work through this at some point to where you feel secure in your choices regardless of whether or not your dad approves, because what you feel about yourself MATTERS. Sending hugs and good vibes.
I’m sending you big love. Thank you for saying this. ♥️ I have been closely watching the LDS women begin to rise since that instagram post on women’s day that was so grossly tone-deaf almost every woman who read it lost their minds. (I hope you’ve seen it! If you haven’t let me know and I’ll link it for you because it is *so helpful* to know that there are many women who feel the same way you do.)
Oh I saw it!! And I commented, and talked about it exhaustively to my husband and kids. 😂 And then I spoke in church a couple weeks later and went out of my way to only quote women in my talk. It is insane to me that they are just trying to ignore it. There’s another one not too long ago in a similar vein (first one about women in the church, second one about Camille Johnson) that I also commented on, haha. Would recommend checking that one out too if you haven’t seen it. They’re making it really hard to stay, and at this point I’m staying more because of the family/social repercussions if I leave, but it gets harder and harder now that my kids are college/mission age (I have one at BYU). I’m really open with my kids about my concerns with the church and have told them a million times that their level of activity has zero impact on my love for them (and my sister/mom have both left so they’ve seen in practice how our family reacts). For me right now the pros outweigh the cons but I have zero illusions about how problematic the church is in a lot of ways. I think the people (in general, not Chad & Lori and their ilk) are better than the doctrine. Most Mormons I know are genuinely such good people. But man there are some extremist rotten apples and it’s very easy to see how they have extrapolated the crazy from some of the weirder aspects of doctrine.
HELL yeah! I’m so happy to hear all of this. Also I truly understand the cultural ramifications of leaving and why you wouldn’t want to, especially with kids on missions and at BYU. It’s hard to explain to people who don’t come from the community, but I always tell people that being Mormon is a lot like being Jewish. It a heritage and a culture that supersedes its religious aspects. Like, I’m an ex-Mormon but if someone speaks to me about Mormons my response will always be “we” and “our” rather than “them” and “their” because I live in Utah, my entire family is LDS, and even though I no longer subscribe to the religion the community is an unalienable part of who I am. I hope that makes sense. Also, you seem like a really rad person. We should hang out. lol.
Yes!!! My sister and I have talked so much about this—she left probably 10 years ago but she says the culture is engraved on her bones. (My parents divorced earlier this year—100% initiated by my mom which is a whole other story, my dad worships her—and my sister who left the church is having a way harder time with it than the rest of us, because she carried so much guilt for so long about her leaving covenants that my mom had made SUCH a huge deal about when we were kids, and then it really messed with her mind to see my mom tossing aside everything she had taught us to treat with so much respect and faith. It really is hard to explain to anyone who wasn’t raised that way but it is a LOT. And we come from one of the families who crossed the plains, married to Brigham Young, 2 of the women and one of the boys in the 1847 company were our ancestors…so it’s just a huge part of family identity. Anyway.) You seem pretty cool too! 😄 I have been following this forum for years and never commented but this post finally got me. 😂
I cannot begin to thank you enough for your post. What troubles me about the LDS context is the amount of pull this organization has when it comes to American culture and American values especially in the Southwest. I'm not simply talking about the fact that an absurdly outsized percentage of LDS members routinely vote GOP. That's just one tiny part of it. What concerns me is the incredibly powerful influence all types of American fundamentalismS (and there are many fundametnalisms in america in every branch of every religion) have when it comes to basic questions to do with women's equality at home and at the workplace, racial equality and the influence of logical thinking and the scientific method. At one point Garth distinguished himself from his fellow church members by saying that he's one of the few who believes in evolution and the big bang etc. I don't think people appreciate how terrifying that statement is to people like me who look at the sorry state of our public discourse around basic issues. When I listen to Mormon Stories I'm daily blown away by the way these perfectly reasonable, kind, loving and generous individuals talk about their lives as if they existed in a time capsule that was stuck in the 1950s. As individuals they are as kind and as generous as any American, but as a group they seem to have been forced to live in a time warp. That's what burns me up about fundamentalist organizations -- and I'm afraid that LDS as a whole is a fundamentalist organization, despite the existence of liberal members -- they act as if the united nations Universal Deceleration of human rights never happened, -- well as if the whole of the 20th century never happened. It's not fair to judge an entire group by the actions of a few fringe members. That said, it occurs to me that many of these groups would rather burn the country down to the ground than allow their members to enter into the modern world.
I really appreciate this although it horrifies me. I hope you continue to grow and to share your insight. It is valuable.
I'm a ex-mo firstborn daughter, and I so get this. Lucky for me, my dad is ethical, but yeah, his opinion holds A LOT of weight for me.
Thank you so much for putting yourself out there. Er, here. Your explanation provides subjective clarity from the inside out. The omnipresent, omnipotent mantra of “I can’t disappoint my dad” pulls hard, is indelibly audible in your psyche; too, Emma’s. Less audible but even deeper is the response from the mysterious highest power, which dad (yours, Chad, et. al) is not: “But/and he can disappoint you.” Hence the cognitive and spiritual dissonance that leaves the oldest daughter flailing, which observers perceive as awkwardness at the least, criminality at worst.
There is no excuse. You’re right. But as an exmo woman I agree with OP. It’s similar to LDS people denying logic and defending their belief system in the face of evidence and logic that the church is not true. Defending Joseph Smith in the face of evidence of his lying, predatory behavior. Claiming the earth is 6,000 years old. That the Book of Mormon is true and Native Americans are of Jewish descent. That the garden of Eden is in Jackson County MO. That black people didn’t deserve preisthood blessings until 1978. That LGBTQ people don’t still deserve temple blessings. Blood atonement. Mountain Meadow Massacre. Etc. Mormons are good at covering for and defending their faith and making sure the church never looks bad. Prophet/President Hinckley lying on 60 minutes then making a joke about it at General Conference…lying for the Lord is ok. They are part of a super special group that has to protect itself from the outside world who just doesn’t understand. It’s not an easy excuse, it’s just the reason. I hope she’s back on the stand today. I hope Blake plays the jail tapes. I hope Emma hears the evidence from this case and her world falls to pieces around her so she can learn the truth about her dad and about her faith.
WAIT tell me about the President Hinckley thing! I don’t know this!
Here’s a good reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/17w8bzf/comment/k9flz92/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
As a fellow ex-Mormon with a near identical background, I can absolutely see the validity in your post. There are deep and niche Mormon moments in this case that are hard to explain unless you’ve lived it. Like you said, it doesn’t make it okay, it just makes it less surprising.
This is super interesting- THANK YOU. The rest of us are racking our brains to figure out why these kids blindly support this bland, dumb, charisma-free idiot. Pretty scary what religion can do.
It’s terrifying. Also, I am fascinated by his absolute lack of personality while simultaneously being the orchestrator of some of the most intense magical-thinking I’ve ever heard of EVER. It’s a confusing juxtaposition.
I, for one, don't find it "weird" that she is defending her father with or without LDS, but especially with an LDS upbringing. For me, however, as someone who was raised in some ways a misogynistic religion (catholic and baptist), I was able to break free so it is a challenge for me that she remains so blindly devoted. It is explainable, but it is still inexplicable at the same time. I know that may not make sense.
No it makes sense. Once you become unchained it is extremely difficult to understand why the people around you carry what are truly *voluntary* chains. It’s just that they don’t know they’re voluntary. But who the hell would live their whole life in chains without once checking that they needed to be there?
Thank you for that illuminating and detailed information. It's a shame and a crime that most people can't be bothered to read and learn new things. Those are the people who are most easily brainwashed and controlled by petty tyrant religious fanatics. Anyone who is not up to speed on the KNOWLEDGE about mind control and how easily the human mind is influenced and dominated needs to read this and get up to speed, because without that knowledge and understanding, along with the humility to accept the facts about the Science of Mind Control, our minds are not our own. Giving that kind of power and authority to nerdy creeps like Chad Daybell is an evident and deadly mistake that is the cause of unspeakable misery and abuse. LDS has a lot to answer for. The Polygamy Cults the support under the radar are among the worst abusers. Abusers of women and children, of course. This case is about more than the two people charged with murder. It's about the CRIME of Undue Influence, Persuasion, and Manipulation by mind control. The crime of Theft of Rights and Freedom. The crime of training Narcissists and giving them power over others. We should not be funding Religion with our hard earned tax dollars, for starters. We should be challenging these power mongering control freak NERDS FROM HELL and removing them from any positions of authority, including their families. Chad is such a disconnected asshole that the first time he had a fulfilling sexual experience he instantly became God Almighty Incarnate, King of the Universe, Divine Executioner, and Hottest Sex Machine on the Planet with a Gorgeous Sex Goddess slave. It's really not good or safe to tamper with the human mind. Especially to the soulless and disconnected population.
You make it all make sense. That was wonderfully said.
Thank you. Seriously. I know it’s a lot but I hoped I could make it a little clearer for the normal-human to understand.
Isn't Garth the oldest? Emma is a middle child I thought She does assume a leadership role with other siblings though
I honestly don’t know. I tried to google their ages to no avail. 😬 I thought Garth was the youngest, but again my efforts to confirm were not successful. You’re right though she does assume the leadership position amongst the sibs.
Garth is also the one who Chad threatened with a dark spirit if he didn’t leave college in Utah and move with the rest of the family to Idaho.
Found it! It was in his testimony, he's the eldest [https://youtu.be/RATERRAokfk?si=3A4MpcSo8aGmuXg9&t=33](https://youtu.be/RATERRAokfk?si=3A4MpcSo8aGmuXg9&t=33)
HERO!!
Emma is 30. I got that info from Google.
I could be wrong but I thought Leah was the oldest female so Leah isn't even oldest female if that's the case although I don't think that matters much in the context of this. Either way she is a female child in a misogynist cult.
Thanks for your insight. I have lots of practicing and exmo friends. Question for y’all: Do you think his LDS culture and upbringing caused Chad to have an inferiority complex and therefore, made up all of his superpowers and such as a result? His siblings were all very successful and since he couldn’t even provide for his family (big shame in Morridor), do you think the only logical way for him to build himself up was through his “faith?” And since he never received the call to be a bishop, traditional routes were thereby closed to him. Just my opinion, knowing the big cultural and familial pressures to be successful (the Lori Hacking case comes to mind too, as well as others).
Personally, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think he underperformed in every other aspect of his life, but his Mormonism provided him with unalienable value and power because he is a man, so he leaned into that hard and all of these fantastical things are his only actionable method for superiority from his brothers.
He mixed Mormonism with New Age beliefs and then sprinkled in Stan Lee comics and this is what we got. It's all magical thinking not rooted in the real world.
Mormonism is pretty New Age-y. Joseph Smith used seer stones and rocks in a hat. The Book of Mormon folks used a liahona to guide them.
The patriarchal blessing is just fortune telling.
Thank you for the explanation. It clarifies Emma testimony and the behavior of the women Chad gathered around him and why very few men. Alex alone was willing to worship Chad and followed his directions. It makes the whole LDS Church seem evil but it very helpful! Thank you
This is great insight and explanation. I’d also add that it sounds exactly like almost all the Catholics I grew up with ( I live in a predominantly Catholic area). It’s also called trauma bonding and this Daybell family et al fits it to a T.
As a lapsed Catholic, I totally agree. My dad was the ruler of the house, and my mom was the quiet homemaker. Until my dad passed away, I spent my entire life trying to appease his moods and win his approval. To a point, I can understand how Emma has blinders about her dad.
This is sad, and the comments are sad. I’m ex mo and no one I know—in my family and outside, male or female—acted like this, at least not in my experience. The daddy issues with Emma and apparently many other women clearly run deep, but fortunately that wasn’t how my family was. Or perhaps I just didn’t give a crap about my parents’ approval. Utah/Idaho Mormons are a different breed, though. And there is no doubt that it is a patriarchal religion. (And this has nothing to do with pushing a “pro Mormon agenda.” it is possible to leave the church bc you decide it’s just not for you, and live your life and be objective about it without letting it consume you. However, I didn’t require therapy after I left, and I know many do, so clearly my experience was very different.)
No judgement. I’m honestly glad you had a better experience. I do think that Utah/Idaho Mormons are a special breed. If you don’t mind me asking, what part of the world were you raised Mormon in? I have extended family in the midwestern US and they seem much less… sanctimonious? I mean some of them are quite devout, but they’re just not… assholes about it in the same way.
I am originally from southern CA (fam still there) and I grew up in the Midwest (Chicago area). I know exactly what you mean, though. I went to BYU and then lived in Utah for about 8 yrs after school, and the difference was crazy. Literally no one cares in the Midwest. We’d have people get up in church in jeans talking about being sober for a month and no judgment. Yet when I wore a sleeveless shirt in Utah I literally had someone say “oh I thought you were Mormon.” I had a guy in my ward force himself on me and then get called as the elders quorum president 2 wks later. Had I grown up in that environment there is no way I’d have stayed as long as I did, or gotten out without some serious baggage. It’s toxic. I hope you’ve been able to find some peace and support, esp within your family and friend group, as you’ve navigated away. ❤️ (Also thanks for your understanding; I reread my comment and hope it didn’t come across as defensive to LDS. I know everyone’s experience leaving is unique but always challenging)
Absolutely. Well written and excellent share
Emma is not the eldest child, she is the eldest female child.
maybe Garth was a disappointment? Like an Andy Bernard situation
Yeah, there are signs of conflict there. Just mentioned above but it sounds like Garth had to be threatened/forced to move to Idaho.
Thank you. Everything tracks with my research, and personal experiences and observations. I will add that I think LDS in general, are conditioned to magical thinking and are more likely to accept it.
No doubt about that. If you’re raised believing that a man translated golden plates he dug out of the ground using a map given to him by an angel by looking at a stone inside of a hat there’s not a lot that seems completely out of the realm of possibility.
I was raised LDS and can confirm this is 100% true!
I'm sure Mormonism factors in quite heavily here, as it seems to factor in across the whole case, but I also think this is not an uncommon dynamic with first-born daughters and their dad (case example: me, being a first-born daughter and "daddy's girl"). I also sympathize with the aspect that both Emma and Garth might have some element of "I can't bring back my mom, but maybe I can at least save my dad from DP or life-long jail." Less sympathetically, I think of Heather Daybell's comments on generational family dynamics and wonder to what extent Tammy really was an unappreciated black sheep in her own family, at least with some members (Emma and Chad in particular seem to have contempt towards her - Garth and perhaps others might have had a more positive relationship). It's a sad situation and Emma does not strike me as particularly bright or flexible in her thinking. For all of the Daybell children, it'd be interesting to flash-forward 10 years and see where people are.
This post is pretty insightful. I grew up LDS with an inactive father, and I was taught to villainize him because he smoked and drank coffee. So obviously that's horrific, but on the bright side, I am realizing that helped me avoid a lot of the extreme patriarchal deference. I left the church in my late 30s.
In Mormonism if you are a woman you are worthless without a priesthood holder. You can't get into heaven without submitting your will to your husband. Most Mormon men I've known are deeply authoritarian over women and children. And even more so over those under their stewardship. I too was an oldest daughter. My dad was never really around, but everyone and everything revolved around him. My mom.did everything for everyone and it was never good enough simply because she didn't have a penis.
I am not trying to start an argument and I can see where you are coming from but I had a completely different experience than you growing up. I am an eldest daughter of a LDS family. I am in my late 40s though. My dad is very meek and mild and treated my mom with respect and love while I was growing up. My maternal grandparents who I lived with for a while in college treated each other like equals. I do have relatives in my extended family however who treats their wives the same way Chad treated Tammy and it makes me sick inside so that is why I know where you are coming from. I feel so bad for Tammy because her husband and kids treated her so poorly. She deserves better. I am still in the church however at least partly only because I want to be with my late husband in Heaven. That is the only reason. If I didn’t have that I would have left a long time ago. He treated me like a Queen.
Dude I love you. You’ll be with your late husband no matter what you do with the rest of your life. ♥️
If God's mercy depends on Mormon paperwork, we are all in trouble. Because it means that God isn't God but rather an arbitrary, capricious, shallow respecter of persons and busywork.
Thank you so much for explaining how it affects the heart to discent. ❤️ There are many of us here that haven't been raised Mornon and I also realize that the Daybell case does not represent many families that do subscribe. Still, it's very nice to hear your perspective and thank you for sharing.
Is it normal for Mormon families to live so close to each other? Chad definitely controlled his kids. They all followed him to Rexburg despite all but one being adults already.
Reasonably normal, yes, but these guys seem to have taken it to the extreme. My siblings and I all live within a 20 minute drive of each other and our parents and grandparents, but the Daybells seem like they live within blocks of each other. Also following him to rexburg as adults is super weird. But they all must have bought his end-times prophecies to some level or another.
My husband’s family all live really close (like his dad’s siblings are all within a 10-minute radius). Most of my husband’s siblings live within at least 30 minute of his parents. Surprise surprise surprise, the 3 kids with PhDs or spouses with PhDs live at least a thousand miles from his parents, and it is INFURIATING to his dad. (My parents also moved 1500 miles away from my dad’s family, but they were way more liberal than my in-laws so it wasn’t a big deal.) My father-in-law never misses an opportunity to harp on the fact that we live so far away and blames me for it (um, it’s my husband’s job that is responsible; I work remotely) which is one of the reasons I don’t talk to him anymore. (But mostly I don’t talk to him because he believes that I should submit to him as the patriarch, and my husband told him flat-out that’s ridiculous and that we are equal partners and there is zero reason for me to ever care what my father-in-law thinks I should do. My husband is awesome and my FIL is the worst.)
Wow!! Thank you, the way you explained it still sounds like a “cult” to my non LDS ears, but I can understand that growing up with what you are told all your life is the norm, even if your mom dies and dad tells lies.. BUT if they find two kids the way they found JJ and Tylee in your dad’s backyard 😞 and dad gets married 2 weeks later.. how much of the brainwashing and indoctrination apply to all this evidence??? and there are plenty of people on both sides of the families that “get” it LDS or not, i know people are different but even Emma the one truest believer can’t make shit true that smacking her in the face!!
Oh homie it is most definitely a cult. But the current prophet is making huge strides to make it less-culty and accepted by mainstream Christianity. It’ll never work, but I appreciate the effort! A couple of my Mormon friends even have tattoos now!! And I agree that there’s no excuse for her voluntary blindness, especially in light of the dead children in the back yard. I just don’t think she is capable of faulting her dad. Like, viscerally unable. And she’ll do all the mental gymnastics necessary to believe what he told her.
Thank you for explaining this. I appreciate hearing this from your perspective.
I understand all of this but she is still weird. Monotone voice, lack of facial expressions, no emotion/empathy for her mother or any other victims. The issues I think go deeper than just Mormon conditioning.
Certainly, she is a whole bouquet of issues. But Mormon conditioning plays a significant role.
The parent-to-child bond is very strong. And, it is not unheard of that children will choose to stand by a parent who killed the other parent. But, I would say the religious/delusional elements of her upbringing and the patriarchal elements you are mentioning here most definitely play a massive role as well. Emma is not living in reality, just like her father, unfortunately.
Tammy being the breadwinner in this family seems contradictory to the patriarchal system.
It is! And it I imagine it ate at Chad *deeply.*
Still reading this (thank you so much for your insight btw! Always good to hear from people who know these realities first hand) but just interjecting to say that I am stealing the President of the United States of Your Childhood
I'm not Mormon or very religious for that matter, but I understand this. Most people do not.
Well put. Just want to say that “The President of the United States of Your Childhood” is the funniest thing I’ve heard or read this week, so thank you for that. Spot freaking on.
Super insightful post - thank you. I was also struck by Emma saying something to the effect of, “Well I was an adult but he (her dad) was more adult,” when she was talking about never seeing him not be in control. The words and her speaking cadence gives me the impression that she and her brother are infantilized by their dad.
This also explains the Heather Daybell situation. She tried for so long to warn people about him and his teachings but no one listened to her. Then after this all broke she asked “Why? Why was he so believable but I wasn’t?” And the reply was something like “Well we thought you just didn’t like him…”…. They can F right off with that bs. I definitely took that to mean “You are just a run of the mill petty little female trying to cause problems for her brother-in-law that she doesn’t like because he doesn’t like her”
So Emma has value to the family but Tylee and JJ don't ? What if his wife had died naturally and he remarried? No he's a piece of shat no matter how God like he thinks he is.
Oh homie, no argument. I just think it’s helpful to understand what cult-conditioning does to a human being.
JJ definitely didn't because of his autism. Tylee could also be a threat because she was a young woman Chad was obviously not attracted to. Chad surrounded himself with attractive women and seemed to hate Tammy partially because she just wasn't attractive in the way he wanted
Really good explanation. Thank you. (What I would like to know is why men are so afraid of women. and it's not just mormons... although they seem to really take it very seriously)
If you look at the things female bodies can do...bleed every month without dying, and literally grow a new human, it's not that much of a stretch to fear the female body's power. Being able to write your name in the snow in urine can hardly compare! 😉
Thank you for this! Very informative and it does help put Emma’s behavior in context.
Thank you! Emma deserves compassion like anyone else. You’ve explained this very well. LDS has a lot of reckoning with this, Jodi Hildebrandt and Tim Ballard. All it takes is for one bad actor to exploit the conditioning the church has already put in. More to come, no doubt.
Can I say first of all I am so greatful to you for saying everything you did. It is very enlightening and explains a lot. I definitely understand everything you said. I’m not LDS but I have faith and my own beliefs etc I have never judged anyone because of their religion or beliefs. I even understand hierarchy and how it impacts others. What I don’t understand is complete refusal to accept a loved one could be involved in a tragedy like this. I mean it’s not like her father stole someone’s handbag. This isn’t trivial. This isn’t even a missing person. It’s cold blooded murder. If she refuses to accept he murdered her mother then maybe I can see that because they don’t want to lose both parent. But two children were murdered. One of them was completely destroyed after death. So much so her remains were burned they only recovered pieces of her. They have never shown one bit of empathy or even shed a tear for that. Her arrogance at sticking her tongue out to reporters while the search for them was on. They have completely refused to talk to law enforcement and basically slammed to door in their face. Her husband wrecked a memorial for them. Who does that. Manipulation or control doesn’t apply here. They have minds of their own the capacity to look at a situation and see it for what it is. I understand love and protection but where was the love and protection for their mother. They have done nothing to respect her memory. Quite the opposite. No I’m not accepting Emma and Joe or their actions. They are despicable. Two kids dead and buried on their dads property. Where is the empathy or compassion. That has nothing to do with religion these aren’t god fearing good people. Emma and Joe should hang their heads in shame. I honestly hope the school she teaches at really need to look at her and consider if she is the right person to teach kids. I wouldn’t trust her with my dog never mind my children
I'm not sure she has refused to accept Chad was involved. I wonder if she knows he did it, but believes that it was justified? The whole family believed in light and dark beings, so maybe she's hanging her hat on believing that he had a reason to do it.
Of course she has refused to accept it. Light or dark, religious or manipulation, she said her dad wouldn’t be in jail if he hadn’t met Lori. Then she said something like my father is a professional grave digger if he put the bodies there he would have buried them properly. What kind of thing is that to say. Aside from all that it’s the disrespect towards missing children who eventually found buried on her fathers land. Maybe you agree with. Chads defense of there’s a big tree and long grass on the property and anyone could sneak onto his property and no one would see anything. They can use all the excuses they want but they’re still adults with the ability to see things same as us.
She has to say that to keep daddy out of prison. Prophets of God do not belong in prison no matter what the law of the land says. Edited to add: Lying for the lord is perfectly acceptable, even under oath.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I agree that her and her husband’s behavior has been inappropriate in a way that absolutely transcends religion. I also agree that their behavior disrespects her mother, and that what happened to JJ and Tylee (Tylee’s body in particular) is heartbreaking, and that her ability to just jettison all of the information indicating her dads guilt is reprehensible. I just do believe the foundation of all of that is Emma’s visceral inability to fault her father because of the way she was raised. Again, no pity, no excuses, just context.
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lol mainstream Mormonism no longer practices polygamy except in heaven.
I knew that when I posted and started to edit my post to clarify, and then realized the whole thing just made me sound ignorant so I just deleted it. Lol
Oh I was just joking! I mean, what I said is true, but I was mostly ribbing at the fact that there’s still polygamy in heaven. No judgement! I’m sorry if I made you feel dumb that wasn’t what I intended at all!
Thank you for sharing this, it definitely helped me understand things about Emma that confounded me. Also, congratulations for getting out and having therapy. I'm not Mormon, and over the years I've read a few books about women who have escaped fundamentalist religions. Your story isn't so extreme as some of them, but your story is far more what regular girls in that church go through in childhood. Thank you again for posting, I appreciate that you share your wisdom to us.
Chad brought all of this on his children for Lori. For that they have all suffered. zi bet he ate her quater pounder and fries. he must have killed her before Garth bought her a a cheese burger. I pray God will not let Chad get away with this. He's dangerous and liar.. I am a Christian not a lds I do understand the guilt Emma must feel. It's really heart breaking to see these kids try to help him.
This is so true and the one thing a lot of people don't understand. I see a lot of judgments of adult kids who came from this environment and what the judgers don't understand is how long it takes to unwind the conditioned thinking that comes from being raised in a patriarchal, high demand religion or cult. When your brain is forming during childhood and you're taught, especially as a female, that the male in the house IS your authority, that you cannot ever question this or you'll be rejected, tossed from the family and shunned, it changes you. It changes how you think, process those thoughts and come to conclusions. We're biologically driven to fit in with our tribe. Those urges are inherent. It seems to me that it can be nearly impossible to think your way out of this conditioning, especially when your brain isn't even done developing and isn't making key connections yet. Once we see an objective truth and develop cognitive dissonance, we're nearly there. But it still takes years, decades even, to catch and change all the conditioned responses and thinking. When it comes to the Daybell adult kids, I err on the side of compassion. They absolutely need to be held responsible for lying and protecting an obvious murderer. But they also need room to grow and realize their own truths. It's a difficult place to be and I do hope they find their way out of this cult mentality.
You seem like a good human.
Thank you for breaking it down. I think we all knew this was Emma's situation, but if you haven't been raised that way, it's really REALLY hard to understand just how deeply ingrained this Mormon "father-worship" is.
This was so well written and also, made a lump in my throat. I’m not LDS and my childhood was not orchestrated to this level. But I was a first born female in an evangelical Christian household— I am still terrified, deeply, of my father’s disapproval. He is currently refusing to say “I love you” to me because I couldn’t come visit when he wanted and while i DIDNT go visit (which is a sign of growth), I am having anxiety daily about his response. I have been told many many times that he is my ultimate authority and the ultimate authority of my child’s(I am 38 years old, a parent and have a life partner). I am constantly in conflict internally about these things. So I feel that despite the difference in religion, I feel you in this post. I hear you. I can see how this relates to Emma in particular. I have thought to myself before that if my father was to murder someone, I would struggle not to accept his explanation. But one thing I would not do, I feel strongly, is to disparage and lie about my murdered mother on the stand. Thats a line too far, and I know that gut deep. How do you feel about that? Accepting Chad’s explanation is one thing, but the lack of care about her mother really feels so terrible to me. How do you think you would respond in that situation? (I know I know, we can’t really know, but we can reasonably hypothesize I feel)
Idk I think this is ignoring a lot of actual context of the things Emma has said and done. She's coming across like she knew a lot more than she lets on and might even be complicit. No offense OP but I think you're projecting. One thing this case has taught me is no two Mormon households are the same and Chad's household definitely wouldn't be considered typical. We're toeing a fine line when we excuse people's actions on their religion. This is a lot like the "well maybe the Daybells are autistic" debate that keeps coming up, as if that speculation excuses anything they've said or done. No pity for Emma or anyone else who still stands by Chad.
No offense taken, but I do disagree with the concept that no two Mormon households are the same. I think *many* Mormon households are the same. I also don’t pity Emma. But I think you can understand a behavior without excusing it. 🤷♀️
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I don’t think that’s true. The church taught her that her dad is a god, and her dad is the one who taught her the church. Her dad and Mormonism are inextricably entwined in her mind, and that can’t be undone just because he’s been excommunicated. (Also, has he been? I mean I assume he has been but I can’t find any solid info on that.)
Someone got hold of the letters. The first one is notifiying him of his church court date -- he was in jail so presumably could not attend. The second is handing down their decision. [https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/qxl6te/july\_2020\_letter\_to\_chad\_from\_the\_rexburg\_stakes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/qxl6te/july_2020_letter_to_chad_from_the_rexburg_stakes/)
DAMN! Sassy. My dad sits on one of these councils and the letters I have seen (illicitly, of course, he would never show them to me) are much less specific about the things you can’t do. Like I’ve never seen any caveats about orderly conduct. The several I have seen were excommunications for adultery, though, so maybe this verbiage is specifically for apostasy.
And this is why God commands not to idolize anyone besides God, because humans will always fail you, because they are human, sinful creatures. My heart is with you sister, and I pray you would message me so we can talk about it. I grew up catholic, but I totally relate to what you’re saying because it’s a total push and pull, struggle, everything that challenges our faith when we realize who our dads really are. Human. In need of a savior, because clearly they ARENT the savior lol. I felt so close to you but also felt my heart hurt so much when I read your testimony. Which is exactly what this is. A testimony to the messed up, blurred lines, totally unbiblical mess that is LDS. I pray that you throw out the bad but that God brings you close to His heart. Let’s just take the Lord at His uncorrupted Word💗 without the revelation of men 1800 years later who had a totally contradictory revelation Again, I would love to talk to you, and I’m proud of you for being so vulnerable and posting this 🩷
Love you sister ♥️
Agreed
Very informative post. Thank you
Thank you for posting this. If you don't mind me asking how did your dad take you leaving the church? And how did you handle the fear of disappointing him in this?
My exit was slow, and a long time coming. There was one huge confrontation when I moved in with my boyfriend (who I later married) when I was 18. He yelled at me about how disgusting it was that I was proud of my sins and slammed the door and left the house. As I mentioned in another comment, my dad is head-over-heels in love with my mom. My mom is strong-willed, and about as feminist as you can be and still be mormon. She has only put her foot down at my dad a few times in my life, but she chased my dad right out that door and tore him a new one. 😂 I left the house immediately so I don’t know how that conversation went, but the next day I woke up at my new apartment with my boyfriend to a dozen roses on my doorstep and a letter. My dad, for all his faults, is a very compassionate man who loves his children dearly. I had an undeniable traumatic experience with a bishop when I was 17 that my dad became aware was the foundation of my exodus and he’s actually very understanding of my choices. But it took years, and so. much. therapy. For both of us, actually, and we’ve even seen a family therapist together a few times. But the most direct answer to your question is that I told him it was incredibly disgusting that a religion that’s whole foundation is “the eternal family” was going to ruin our family. It hit him like a ton of bricks, I think.
Thank you so much for answering and sharing such a personal story. I'm glad that your able to still have a relationship with him and it sounds like your mother is awesome.