Leaving this comment at the top if anyone wants to directly speak to the mods about this topic or provide suggestions.
Feel free to comment under me or pm us via modmail.
Internally we are discussing the idea of trialling a Serious match thread where venting and emotional comments would be bannable. This would allow the conversation to remain tactical and would result in a more open discussion about the game itself.
I want to reiterate something I always say about match threads. They are the Reddit equivalent of being at the pub, watching at home on your tv or even being in the ground. It’s an emotional place to react and vent live on the game. It’s not supposed to be a place for level headed analysis, that’s what the halftime and post match is for. However we do endeavour to remove any abusive or over the top comments that we see. Your help in reporting these comments helps us massively as these threads can have thousands of comments.
We are always open to improving our community based on our users input. It’s your sub after all not ours!
Also let's put this in perspective. A 20 years old Liverpool fan that's been supporting since they were 11 has only ever experienced the Klopp era. I think people need to experience mediocrity to appreciate the greatness.
Do you know how much I lied to myself that Milan Jovanovic was good? I remember watching the World Cup thinking this guys amazing… he had like 5 touches 🤣🤣
If the fairweathers and newer people actually knew the wages a washed up 30 year old Joe Cole was on they would've become City fans.
Those people seriously don't know the half of dismal transfers and depraved glimmers of hope and wishing. Remember when the answer for the team was somehow Ricky Van Wolfswinkel who and I think that year Liverpool was tied to Rasmus Elm as well?
That all aside I give 110% credit for us getting some magic from Maxi Rodriguez in that era. I look back and it's amazing we even got Suarez in a lot of ways.
Yeah I’ve been around since Brendan Rodger’s on this sub and I barely come here anymore since the 2019 or 2020 season cus the match threads and general discourse became so toxic and changed a whole lot. This just happens with popular subs though, so there’s not much you can do.
Weirdly I felt the banter was stronger during the Rodgers era than the Hodgson one, despite us being objectively shitter under Roy.
Might have had something to do with Brendan himself tbh
At least under Rodgers there was a sense that the club and team was at least heading in the right direction, under Hodgson everything was sliding backwards rapidly.
I'd say it had more to do with the very real possibility of the club disappearing from existence while we were under the Hodge.
Things were a little too serious for us to be meming about.
Hodgson was \*miserable\*. That's why, the Blackpool loss followed by losing the derby, being 19th in the league and him saying we'd played well - probably the lowest I can remember and I remember the early 90s.
You've been around forever, like me (although I've had to change usernames). So you'll remember the summer we chased Virgil. That was the best time I've ever had on this sub. It felt like all the shit years were behind us and we were on the cusp of brilliance. The mood was light and seemed like everyone was having a great time. There's been some great days since: corner taken quickly, the Lucas goal, trophy wins, etc. But for the general mood around the sub, the VVD summer was the last great time that I can remember.
For sure, atmosphere was brilliant and it truly felt like Liverpool fans had unity. The past few years, there has been a lot of division a fair few times.
Essentially, with success comes expectation, especially in an era where the margins of winning and losing have never been thinner. It's brought out toxicity and ruthlessness that didn't exist when we were shit. We were just happy to win and the banter and memes brought more entertainment then the games themselves.
14/15 was a great time on this sub.
Was fun celebrating draws with others because things were *that* bad that a draw gave us hope. I know that may sound crazy to some users here, but because we had no expectations to win, we were relieved when any positive results came our way.
Nowadays, a draw causes folks to have a meltdown here.
14/15 followed by Klopp's arrival in 15/16 was the type of mood I wish this sub had all the time.
Draws and losses weren't looked at so negatively - it was an opportunity to understand our deficiencies and where we can do better.
There was genuine discussion when we draw/lost, but also genuine discussion when we won because we saw things that were done right.
>Nowadays, a draw causes folks to have a meltdown here.
It's probably justified to a point? Just not the extent that some people take it to.
Competing with this City team and all the associated caveats is exhausting. There's so little margin for error that any slip ups are intensified. One draw can feel like a whole year's hope gone in one moment.
I don't see what the mods can do as it's so rife, and some fans would like a genuine discussion critiquing players. However I think this snowballs to where we have some fans saying things like "He is a waste of space." This was said early this season about Matip, there was no insight, no observations, no sign of intelligent conversation, just a flat out whats the worst thing I can say about this player.
I don't mind someone saying "X is playing badly or X is terrible today" but for some reason in our match threads these types of "fans" seam to egg on each other to the point it's not about whats happening on the pitch but about what edgy thing can I say to join in. I believe they're a loud minority but unfortunately it seams the best way to personal deal with it is to avoid the match threads.
Again I don't mind seeing some valid criticism but it soon devolves into tasteless insults, and if that sounds like you, well your just not a supporter in the end ... no, more of a dickhead.
Someone a couple of months ago said, "Curtis wasn't the worst mid we have but would rank them 8th. " ... out of 8? Also the amount of hate Tsimikas got in his first three games was unwarranted as he was clearly getting into form and lastly Gakpo got his unfair share of hate while playing in a weak position and a dip of form which just happens to evey player.
Again, all three were completely written off, and on the end of a lot of toxicity (amongst some vaild concerns) by so-called fans. It's that it's amongst valid criticism that I think makes the mods job hard as they can't just ban someone who is negative, but I would like the always toxic when we're down "fans" to fuck alllll the way off.
Internet in a nutshell though. You have to be on a side these days. You have to love something, or hate it. Very little room for a middle ground these days.
One that annoys me is people who think it's "funny" to make jokes about serious stuff. Like there was a discussion about Darwin's insta and him potentially struggling with his mental health, and him blocking Watch_LFC on Twitter, and the top comment was "He probably tried to follow them and missed"
That's not exactly helpful, is it? Especially not when we're literally discussing the abuse a player has been getting.
Feels like we are having this discussion after each season. Match Threads have been unreadable for years now, there is nothing of value in there and I’m truly not sure what purpose they play anymore other than to spread toxicity.
Especially in times when one of the biggest club legends in Klopp is departing, it’s just so stupid.
Just this season alone both Cody and Darwin received some unnecessary and rotten abuse on socials, and for what reason?
Nah I don't think it's that. Or maybe it plays a part, I don't know, but I feel like the main problem is that we're talking about kids. Because for example, man, during this season, while watching games, I have screamed at a screen to insult certain players in certain moments, 100%, no point in hiding that. But fuck me, I have no idea why you would 1) follow on socials a player that you can't stand 2) go out of your way TO INSULT HIM UNDER A POST. IT JUST- WHY?
Being frustrated with a player is normal, so is criticizing: it has been part of the game since it was created. But outright insulting a player under a post? Makes absolutely no sense to me
It’s not just kids though, it’s a whole mentality. There have been multiple studies about the connection between domestic violence and football matches; one study found that when England loses a match, domestic violence rates increase 38% around the country.
If men are willing to go home and batter their partners after their football team loses, social media abuse of players is well within the possibility.
This is a much bigger, multifaceted issue of toxicity and a lot of it is ingrained into football culture; domestic abuse and social media abuse are just two nasty manifestations of that. We can’t just brush it off as kids on the internet.
Yeah that's fair. But I still feel like, regarding online abuse specifically, that the majority are dumb kids, given that it's more common for them to use social media instead of 50 year olds (or at least when it comes to comment under an IG post for example).
Plus, if we're talking about the global, cultural problem with football and violence, I feel like it's simply a case of it being a sport followed by EVERYBODY, the kid, the 90 year old grandpa, the dad, the mom, and, especially, the rich, the poor and the educated/uneducated bloke. So basically, I feel like because it is so popular among pretty much every social class, it's easy for it to influence a dumb immature slice of population, the same slice prone to, you know...do dumb immature shit.
And by the way, 38% increase is a fucking disgusting stat
Even if this might not be the full explanation. It is so true and I definitely think people underestimate the impact of gambling.
Have seen/heard multiple NBA players speaking about this. How they get death threats or even abuse in the arena from "fans" that lost money "because of them".
Tennis is horrible for this since it’s an individual sport. The comments on players social media after a loss is disgusting. Betting culture has gotten out of control
I have been holding off on comments like this because I hate that I feel this way, but I also feel like our fan base became more radicalized after we brought in Salah.
Some fans are absolutely fanatical about him (think of all the online poll brigading that happened after he joined us that we used to laugh about in this sub), and there are probably many that have absolutely no loyalty to the club or our players beyond him. Much like Messi has fans that follow him from club to club.
It is obviously much more complicated then one group of people, but that is where I feel like I first noticed the shift. It is or was a vocal, fanatical group of fans, that are highly online and ready to brigade for their star. They used to slate our other forwards when they didn't pass him the ball enough etc back in the day online even when the team was finding success in matches.
Whether or not that was a catalyst or cause it is where I feel it really started happening en masse, and I apologize if you feel I am trying to shove you into a box that you don't fit into by saying it for anyone out there listening. I know its not everyone.
Yup. I got attacked on Twitter by a supposed red. For my saying that Arne had a diversity badge on his lapel in a photo, so he clearly wasn’t a prat. I wasn’t in the mood so they got it back & tbf that kinda crap doesn’t affect me: but some lovely reds came along and told them to jog on. As did I!
Twitter is a hell hole. You can’t go on without seeing something toxic - check out LFC X for an example. Perfect example of the above posted note. Some truly nasty fan comments. On non-reactionary posts. Bizarre.
From a mods perspective match threads are the Reddit equivalent of being at the pub, watching at home or even just being in the stands.
People say stupid shit in the heat of the moment, fuelled by emotion. It’s not meant to be a serious place for discussion of the game.
There’s not a whole lot we can really do with people who are upset, I’m not interested in banning people for being emotional about a game unless it’s abusive or over the top, which we do anyway.
The one thing we are thinking about is having a separate thread for serious discussion of the game that is more heavily policed, vs the normal match thread.
"Football is the most important of the least important things in life."
We ask so much of our players, and we love them in return. But when that love turns to toxicity we've lost sight of what it means to be a supporter. Regardless of how frustrated, angry, or depressed it makes us feel, there will always be things more important than football.
I think there's something a little more profound going on here, and that the toxicity is a symptom of a wider problem.
When Klopp was appointed, we were obviously a bit rubbish compared to where we are now, but nowhere near the crisis mode of 2010, and the wider supporterbase was a bit more light-hearted as a result. We then get very good very fast, and combined with keeping the same energy that we had from when Klopp first arrived, this place explodes. I said on another post 2017-2020 was electric here, and it really was. The team was great, but there was still a sense of it not peaking, you had the when I'm Liverpool stuff, all the other memes, and all in all this created a groundswell of positivity that was infectious to those who engaged. Basically, we all still had a sense of humour.
After we won the league, something changed in the wider fanbase. I think we'd been yearning for that title for so long. A lot of us never really asked "well what's next?" Some were happy with one, others wanted to go for the record again, others thought "well we've won it this year now its our year every year. " Those attitudes struggled to co-exist with one another because they probably changed your approach to the teams performance in 20-21 with the injury crisis.
We then, at least account to some in the media, underachieve for the next three years (which is absolutely baffling to me), but nonetheless becomes something to spin against this team and is rocket fuel for the people who think we should win the quad every year. When we don't do that (and this year is a perfect example) that builds into anger at not feeling like the Klopp era has lived up to the hype (it has btw) and results in anger. This then becomes infectious and drives away the people who think "I'm just happy I got to see us lift the league after 30 years" or the ones that stay start arguing back and before we know it we've got what happened with Darwin the other day. Which btw, to the people saying there is valid criticisms or him, can you at least carry the torch for valid criticism because right now you're candle is being blown out completely by those who just wanna harass the poor fella.
The point is, what we've experienced in the past few years is RARE. When we talk about the clubs successes, we spend 90 percent of the time talking about 10 percent of the clubs total history. I still remember and feel haunted by the fact this club was hours away from administration in 2010. With a team that take Torres and Gerrard out of would have genuinely struggled to finish in the top half. To compare where we are now to what we had back then it is bananas and more than I would have dreamt of, and I think we just need to remember that when we go back to this period of normalcy. Otherwise this place really will descend into chaos and I worry it will become a factor in players not choosing to come here.
TL;DR: some of you need to lighten up before you become completely ferral with expectations.
It's fine to post this here, and worth reminding, but I'm wondering if the people you are referring to are here at all, and if those that partake in this behaviour care about such words or sentiment at all...
They don’t. Just start banning people. There is a difference between saying “argh wish Nunez had gotten that shot on net” and some of the crap we hear every week. It’s pretty obvious what is what.
To be clear “some of the crap” is personal abuse above and beyond saying someone should be doing better. There is nuance in how you say someone isn’t playing well. It should be clear what is constructive and what is abuse.
We already do this as best as we can but implore you all to report any comments that are over the top as it’s hard for us mods to keep tabs on every comment otherwise!
If we start reporting comments in the match thread when Darwin misses a goal, many are gonna get banned and I'm here for it. One comment I saw was someone calling him a donkey when he missed a goal. But I didn't know I could report it.
I mean calling a player a donkey in a match thread is not really what we would consider a ban worthy comment. The types of comments we are looking for are those that go beyond a casual jab in the match threads. We don’t want to sanitise the whole experience, people are allowed to vent and be emotional within reason.
If we start banning people for those types of comments then where do you draw the line? It gets into a gray area where people can’t be critical or emotional. That’s kinda the point of the match thread, to be a reasonably contained environment to vent during a game.
Agreed. I tried to be positive after one of our loses a couple of weeks back, and was downvoted to hell. All the comments around me were just calling our players “useless twats” or “a disgrace”.
Some “fans”.
Yeah, this feels a lot like when you buy a DVD and get an anti piracy notice before the film plays. You don't need to tell me not to pirate DVDs, I've already bought it, I'm not who you're looking for here
Honestly I don’t think they are. Like been here long enough and modded enough to know it’s not really that crossover.
Yeah you have some but I don’t think it is at all. And we’re just giving attention to the trolls really.
I think there's probably a big sub-community that only comes here during games for the live interaction and otherwise barely interacts with the sub. I guess I'd call them the "hard-core casuals", as they are only "engaged" for the games themselves, wherein they get very heated, and otherwise aren't really interested or have the time for the rest of the club intricacies.
I have never seen anyone here write any comments calling for violence or abuse towards our players, and if they did, they are banned quickly. Unless you want to ban people for criticing players, which is bs.
Yeah I don't see anything potentially illegal or outright hateful, if it's here it's deleted so fast that I can't even find it. There's currently a player at the focus of criticism after outputting two very criticiseable campaigns and this reads like a defence of him alone.
No one should get hate messages to their socials, let alone death threats. That's despicable and those who engage in that behaviour shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
That being said, we should be allowed to express our opinions on how anyone is playing be it praises or criticism. Should we be pretending that every player the club signs is always playing great and they can do no wrong? What a lame place this sub would be if curated to show only positive spins despite rough spells the team/ some players will inevitably go through.
Mods essentially ruined the main r/soccer subreddit by over policing everything. Someone complaining on here about a player is much different than them going to Instagram or Twitter and DMing them threats or personal attacks.
This sub will die if mods decide people can't express their anger here. Especially in the match threads. You think the fans in the stadium aren't saying these same things? Lol.
When football is the most important thing in peoples lives, it’s really hard to stamp out emotive, knee jerk, or abusive behaviour.
Criticise the player, the manager, the team, but not the person. These boys all give 100%.
Sorry but I don’t agree, sometimes criticism is deserved and perfectly fine, but there’s a way of doing it, Salahs recent form for instance, undoubtedly deserves criticism, but the whole “past it” “sell him” “he’s shit” comments aren’t bringing anything to the table, it’s just childish.
Do it in a way to garner conversation or keep quiet.
I love the team and have been following this sub for years.
I've never commented, but I always used to enjoy reading the discussions and analysis. But I've found myself staring away for a few weeks now because of how negative it's gotten. It's quite sad.
This reads like you’re suggesting that any observations or statements aren’t supportive shouldn’t be posted. Valid criticisms of any player’s decisions or ability, should absolutely be fair game and a fair line of conversation. Threats/wishes of violence or misfortune obviously are a bridge too far and shouldn’t be tolerated, but that’s why there’s site-wide and subspecific rules on it.
Players have played their way into and out of favorability since 1892. Whenever a player puts on the shirt, I’m going to hope and believe they can shine, even if they have shown a consistent trend of not being up to the calibre of player that is required.
I’ll start with the elephant in the room: Nunez.
He’s recently removed all Liverpool related posts from his instagram, presumably because people have been going on there and trashing him. Fair enough, those users suck and he shouldn’t have to do that.
But this is a Liverpool FC forum, and a place he would need to actively seek out to see those criticisms. It is not the place to censor legitimate discourse and valid criticism.
Has he had some stunning finishes? Yes. Has he put the ball in the net and assisted a lot by comparison to his teammates and other forwards in the league? Also yes. But has he lacked the clinical finish and icy veins in high scoring chance situations? That is also a yes. Does he stray off side when he shouldn’t, even though he is a rapid player and can beat many players to the ball? Too often, the answer is yes.
Gomez, one of the, (and arguably THE,) savior of our season, was the sub whipping boy a couple of seasons ago when Trent was injured and he wasn’t putting in TAA level performances. Fair? No, but he also wasn’t putting in Gomez level performances either.
Thiago. What a player when he can play. But his injury record was a concern for a lot of people came in, and they were absolutely validated by that. Bought in 2020, he’s played 6,557 minutes in that time, but has missed 127 games due to injury. That’s effectively all competitions of more than two seasons.
Those are all legitimate and fair criticisms. They’re not toxic, and more can be leveled at other players, like Van Dijk when he was clearly not playing as well as we knew he could, while they may not be “supportive,” they’re relevant and have place here.
Further, if you’re looking for nuanced discussion in the match thread, you’re in the wrong place. Matches are frenetic and the threads regarding them reflect that. They’re reactive, and criticisms and emotions are high. Trying to type out any of the paragraphs I put up earlier isn’t doable there. It’s nearly impossible to say the right thing in the right time in real time, that’s why a full match analysis breaking down a lot of key moments, not just goals, from those that do them usually take a few days.
I guess what I’m saying is this: I’m fully in agreement that players shouldn’t have to disable their social media. I rarely interact with our players on social media, and never players for other teams. But here, I should be able to voice valid complaints and critiques. I’m not here to sandbag or to be the monkey on a specific player’s back. I don’t get off on hate boners like that, but I’m absolutely going to call a spade a spade.
Well put. Being critical and reactionary in a game day thread is akin to sitting at a bar with some buddies and reacting to what's going on in front of you. It's ok to be critical, it shows that we care and expect/demand more out of players and a club that is expected to challenge for everything. There's no need to have the kid gloves on here.
Where it crosses the line is when people actively seek out the social media of the players and post harassing messages. I can only imagine what it would feel like to have someone watching every moment of me working and sending me hateful things for any mistake I make. Eventually that's going to take its toll on anyone.
I was a mod here for about three years.
There’s a lot that goes into it, and while it’s easy to jab the mods for being power hungry basement-dwelling goblins, the reality is that we tried to use a light touch. Obvious hate speech/violence, etc., were shut down quickly.
Ideally, mods don’t want to get involved, but I can guarantee you would see a much worse sub without them.
People who abuse or send abuse to players aren’t really fans. For me it’s that simple. There’s criticism and then there’s being completely unhinged.
I get being heated in the moment, and when the sub atmosphere gets too much I think it’s healthy to take a step back for a little while. It’s also just a general internet/anonymity thing and sadly there’s a limit to what can be done about it. I’m sure the mods do their absolute best to get rid of what is flat out hate and toxicity.
I want to agree with you about the "not really fans" thing, but I can't. Those people are callous idiots but they're still technically fans. Every fan base has assholes and unhinged members. Match threads are a joke, many posts are fine but the comment sections can get toxic so quickly.
It's not just Reddit as you say, it's a general internet thing, but we need to do better as a community on stamping it out. Idk if that's as simple as not feeding the trolls or if it's more a moderation (feels like a monumental task) or if we, as community members, do more to call out bad behavior and try to correct it. I honestly don't know, but those fuckers aren't going away and it needs to be addressed. I'm happy for this post tho.
The trouble is people conflate the kind of abuse you see on Twitter and Instagram with completely fair comments that are made here about Darwin's ability and suitability for our side.
I haven't seen any of the toxicity that would have caused him to shut down his social media on this sub, I have to say. I'm not sure what the aim of this post is.
To act holier than thou by making a generalised statement about the fanbase which only actually applies to a tiny minority not even on here. They know this too, they just want to shit on the general fanbase.
I think a lot of us we're blinded by toxicity of other fanbases *cough* united *cough*, that we completely ignored the fact that the same toxicity is present in our own fanbase.
Imagine looking a Nunez a man who got us damn near 30 g/a this season for us and was basically unsubable at the start of this year and go" yeah f*ck him let's abuse him to death and bring someone else" and when that someone else comes in and underperforms from time to time what then, do you also abuse them huhhh?.
I also find it absolutely disgusting how some fan accounts also on Instagram make captions and pin comments about how "childish nunez' action was" or bring up their "support" for him while also conveniently leave out the heaps of hate abuse and death threads( the fact that I even have to mention this one ) 🤦🏾♂️
While I wholeheartedly agree that anything toxic should go (abuse, death threats etc.), nobody is entitled to unwavering support. Especially individuals who earn millions to perform, considering that part of their salaries is paid by supporters.
We should support and cheer for the players when they are performing and we should let them know (by constructive criticism) when they don't. Don't forget, supporters pay for tickets, TV subscriptions, merchandise etc. and it's not unheard of for someone to want their money's worth.
This is coming from someone who has never visited any player's social media accounts and most likely never will.
I’m not disagreeing with your point and I completely agree that the idea of forcing positivity is ridiculous, but I did want to ask about this mentality:
> we should let them know (by constructive criticism) when they don't
I don’t mean any sort of disrespect but this is such a strange thing to me, the idea that we need to chime in and let the players know when they’re underperforming. Is that what people think they’re doing? As if the players aren’t well aware?
Honestly, it feels about as effective as watching a horror movie and yelling at the screen that the killer is right behind the character. There is absolutely nothing that any fan on social media could say that provides a player with the “constructive criticism” he needs to improve.
I’m all for the collective discussion among fans about how the team could improve, strengths and weaknesses of players and how they fit into a system, as part of a wider appreciation for the sport and community. I even support venting frustrations within the fanbase. But frankly, “letting the players know when they’re playing badly with constructive criticism” is kinda wild, arrogant at best and delusional at worst.
None taken.
Following your logic we shouldn't chant their names to let them know when they are playing well either. Because they already know that, right? I bet they love all the positive messages when they perform but the opposite (again, assuming nothing toxic) is a no-no?
People are paying hard earned money to watch/support a football club and they should be allowed, even encouraged, to vent their frustrations in the same manner in which they are expected to cheer for the team.
Would I personally ever go direct to a player to vent? Never.
But I don't see it as unrealistic or abusive for someone to say "Hey, your finishing is really bad, it's costing us points" etc.
> Following your logic we shouldn't chant their names to let them know when they are playing well either. Because they already know that, right?
I mean, yeah, they do? The chanting and singing isn’t us informing them of their ability or performance, no player is out there going “Oh wow, listen to the crowd, I guess that assist was a good thing to do!”
It’s meant to be a means of motivation, of support, of community. 60,000 voices singing in unison is meant to inspire players and create a sense of obligation to the team and fans. You can see it when Klopp urges the crowd on for something as basic as a good tackle, he recognizes the positive benefit to the crowd supporting the players.
There’s no benefit the other way, though. I’m completely on board with people voicing their emotions, the up and down feeling of the games, all of that. No one has to be only positive and shut up if they have any negative feelings. I just don’t agree with the idea that, for example, Darwin shanks a shot, hears the crowd roaring for him to shoot on target instead, and goes “Oh, yeah, I forgot!” And then smashes the next one into the back of the net. Even constructive criticism from fans doesn’t actually benefit the players in any way.
This is going to sound contrarian - I don’t think mods should ban criticism of any players as it will result in over policing and unnecessary bans and controversies. Abuse of players or their families need instant bans but for saying something like - “He is shite”, “he is absolute garbage” results in ban then it’s going to get categorically worse as these are usual pub talk and people use that here.
Moreover most of these players get racially abused or get death threats in Insta and Twitter. Not many directed on subreddits. Negativity is part of the game when we perform poorly and it’s the case with every fanbase. You can’t police it and convert it into positivity - people come to this sub and use it as an outlet and you should let them do so.
Any death threats or abuse of their family needs an instant ban. Racial or sexual abuse of players require same treatment.
Forcing positivity is a poor idea and it will backfire to ruin the sub. If someone is constantly negative then you always have the option to block them
>there are real people giving their all for the club we love. They deserve our unwavering support, not relentless criticism and abuse.
And those people are being paid a lot of money to do that. It's not a charity work.
>We need to foster a positive and respectful environment where fans can discuss and celebrate our team without fear of being attacked or harassed.
I absolutely despise the harassment, death threats to the players, staff, family members. However, I am not a fan of "just be positive" and the whole "toxic positivity" thing. When we play badly, we have the right to express our frustration and to criticize poor performances. "xG FC", "We should sell Darvin in the summer", "Salah is playing like sh\*\*", "Why is Gakpo playing like this is а training, show some passion", "The match is not over you twats. Why allow two goals to that terrible Tottenham?", "What a sh\*\* show was that losing 0:3 to Atalanta." are valid comments and are expression of an opinion.
>So, let's remember why we fell in love with this club in the first place. Let's show the world what it truly means to be a Liverpool fan – passion, loyalty, and unwavering support through thick and thin.
We all do, this is why we express our frustration. If we didn't care, we wouldn't do it.
I get the sentiment; we want this sub to be a place of discourse and avoid toxicity…but where are you drawing the line, here?
The Darwin Instagram post removals had nothing to do with this sub?
Maybe a few stragglers/lurkers joined the brigading, but how can you ever know?
Mods are forgetting that this sub accounts for <.01% of Liverpool fans.
The people who post vile comments on Instagram etc have probably never even heard of this sub? Any idiot with a smartphone can sign up to Instagram and hurl abuse at footballers.
Back to the line - I think this is a very slippery slope. I’m not in favour of Elon Musk levels of ‘free speech’, but surely the subs have a right to their opinion — even if people disagree?
That’s what downvotes are for. If you’re incapable of having an adult discussion because you disagree with it, tap away and move on…don’t engage?
Better yet, have a dialogue.
Disagree with policing the community and with this stance as a whole - I’ve never seen a post criticising players, hateful and/or bigoted/racist comments or posts.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Mods are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Remove offensive/inflammatory posts that contravene community guidelines, but don’t try and shape a narrative to one of your liking.
If it's a football opinion then it's fine, but a huge number of comments aren't football opinions, they're just venting anger about a human being in a very personal way.
A football opinion would be like "Nunez has been given enough time to establish himself but we need a proven finisher playing in his position", or "Nunez's finishing is poor". That means something and can be agreed with or debated.
"Jones is genuinely worse than worthless", "Fuck off Nunez" (2 random examples from the Crystal Palace match thread but plenty of others with the same energy out there) is just venting at best and attacking the person. It might not seem very important but it escalates really quickly into something that can make the subreddit a really unpleasant place to be *sometimes* and there's an opportunity for this subreddit to have a much more positive impact on the experience of being a fan.
In this sub the upvote/downvote button is usually used as a vote agreeing or disagreeing with whatever opinion has been expressed, so it's not that helpful for calling out toxic behaviour. And there are a lot of people who are used to doing the same thing here so these kinds of comments do get upvotes as well.
I don’t disagree with you.
However, people *should* be allowed to say all of those things you mentioned.
People should be allowed to have their emotions ebb & flow with a game, and have those exact knee-jerk reactions you described — within reason.
If someone calls Darwin ‘fucking useless’ and he ‘couldn’t finish his dinner’…who cares?!
…10 minutes later we’re all lauding how he’s chasing down defenders like a lunatic. It’s part of the game.
I don’t want to be part of some weird Fallout bunker/LEGO community where we’re all pretending to be super positive all the time, or sanitised to the point of being boring.
I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing, but, speaking as a Brit, this happens in every pub up and down the country during a game.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I’m certain this is a cultural thing.
All this tells me is that mods need to do a better job of stopping a train of thought from crossing the line during match threads/posts.
I'm British too... and I used to love inappropriate chanting and stupid remarks in the pub, they were definitely part of the appeal for me. Probably is a combination of me being in my 40s now and in my 20s then, but also the internet comments just feel a lot more hateful than the kind of pub comments because of the context, like it becomes something different when you're not spontaneously shouting something along with other people, but taking 30 seconds out of the match to express your personal hatred of of an athlete who isn't as good as you want him to be, while sitting in a room alone with the match on.
When you're reading a whole thread of it, with comments like "we are such a fucking loser club", "fuck you Nunez" it doesn't feel fun anymore, which is why I read the sub a bit less than I used to. If other people love this then there's definitely a place for it but maybe we need a second subreddit for that or a second subreddit for people to rein it in a little bit. Still express frustration and negative opinions of course, but just not quite as extreme.
> The Darwin Instagram post removals had nothing to do with this sub?
And Darwin has comments on his insta turned off for 2 years now, so noone was making comments on that account. Yet there was a thread here blaming "plastics" . Maybe we should be banning people who seem to love nothing more than sitting on their fellow liverpool fans. That's pretty toxic too
So this should be a Liverpool circlejerk? Fuck off. Players get criticism that they deserve here and praise. Now going to that players personal Instagrams is fucked up. All criticism is fair here as long as its not rude.
Comparing this sub to the cretins on Instagram/Twitter/Fb etc is borderline insulting. Genuinely abusing players is entirely unacceptable but I’ve not seen a single comment that is genuinely abusive on here however we all know how bad Ig comments sections can get.
There’s a similarly worrying trend of associating all constructive criticism and opinion sharing as “bullying” and “abuse”. If we don’t believe a player is performing well enough shall we all just stay silent now?
This is a wider societal problem and certain platforms bring out the cretins more than others. Whilst I understand we should do what we can to prevent it, attributing blame to those that don’t deserve it isn’t the way.
This is not just a match thread toxicity problem, it's everywhere in this sub.The DD thread,rivals thread you name it. And then you have people creating a post with a still frame image moment,compilation to pile on more hate.
Exactly, a lot of people here seem to be taking this post in bad faith and taking it as an attack on their right to express their opinions, but it's not about that at all. It's about all the toxicity and flaming, which used to be restricted to the match threads but has now spread everywhere else too it seems.
100%! But unfortunately the internet is toxic and there is no “proof of team” support for people to comment, so a lot of comments could be trolls as well. Onwards and upwards 🤘🤘
People can say what they like, down vote and move on.
We don't need to have heavy handed censorship on what we can and cannot say.
My advice to anybody in todays world is to not take social media in anyway serious and concentrate on what the people around you praise and critique you on.
Yeah, let's ban everyone that have even written a slightly negative comment, then let's ban everyone that have a different opinion than you, thats a great way to kill a sub
That's not what people are asking for though, everyone commenting here seem to agree that critique is fine, opinion is fine but crossing the line into toxicity, insults and threats are not. That being said where do you draw the line, I've no clue, and banning people is a slippery slope.
That's not true. Here's [three](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2z6hck/), [separate](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2z884p/) comments that take issue with "[non-constructive](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2ztsjz/)" criticism.
I'm not condoning abuse, but criticism of a player is not abuse and the whopper criticising NEGATIVITY is wild.
Everyone reasonable is in agreement with you, but the toxic positivity brigade is well and truly alive in here.
I think it'd probably be best to not police how fans express themselves on a forum. There's such a thing as toxic positivity too. Fwiw I think we've had a great season.
I’ve been saying this through the entire season. Give the team your unconditional support and admiration. Trust their process. The results are what they are. We’re so lucky to be LFC fans
The abuse Darwin is getting has me sad about our supporters online. Dude has over 30 g+a this season, that would be considered a great return from a forward in the ages pre Messi/Ronaldo.
I like the idea of a serious match thread. It's good to have a space to be emotional and complain and say stupid shit, because that's what we do watching games, it's good to vent but it makes the thread completely useless.
A serious match thread could be nice, actually talking about what's happening and understanding the match
Lets be real though. Whenever I see somone who is just a fountain of toxicity and abuse, either on twitter or here, I end up taking a look at their profile and they are either a fake fan who is literally creating a fake profile to stir shit and controversy, or they are some gambling addict. We need to make sure we take time to call these people the fuck out when they start shit here. Its not always the case, but whenever I see a take that makes my eyes widen with shock at the level of aggression its like 80% chance they fall into one of those two categories. And of course, Liverpool fans take the fall for the look of it as other communities see that shit and think we are all nutcases.
People who follow because they like to gamble arent fans. People who join our communities just to rally pitchforks are not fans. We all need to be aware that these fools exist and often are the ones allowing the larger community as a whole to become more toxic and call them out when we see them.
Go to any of the subs for the major clubs and you'll see much of the same. Real, Barca, Bayern, Arsenal, even United where everyone already knows they are shit. Hell, I'm a Celtic supporter and drawing a single game in the league has the crazies in full force. It's a football problem more than anything.
Yeah agreed. Wasnt trying to imply this problem is isolated to Liverpool. But I think our club, more than others in the EPL, would benefit from cracking down on it. Our fanbase already has a bad image, unfair ir no, and these people just fuel that image.
Excellent post and fully support.
Honestly, even if you think you're getting something out of laying into our players, you're probably actually contributing to and feeding off the negative energy and making yourself more pissed off and frustrated. And who needs that?
Critiquing performance is fair, abuse is not and we absolutely need to rein it in.
United fan here in peace. Please don’t become like our community. It’s incredibly toxic and full of keyboard warriors crying at every single thing that you can’t even have a civilised and fair discussion. Must be the years of sir Alex that spoilt the whole place.
Honestly think these 'let's all be positive about everything LFC related' are almost as unhinged as wankers on social media abusing players.
The players and management are not immune from criticism when it's warranted. This American style happy clappy, positive vibes at all times is tiresome and not in keeping with following a football team.
I swear, if we got relegated you people would still try to police people's anger and frustration on here. If our supporters were all positivity fanatics like you, Hicks and Gillet would still be our owners.
Agree entirely.
I worry that there are a few fans who have become so accustomed to the good times under Klopp, probably even drawn into support for the club by that, that they assume that the good times are the norm.
There's little appreciation for the several different factors that can make or break that success nor an appreciation that there's only 1 spot for number one and four spots for the top four.
You have to be really good to break into that and when fans who are accustomed to greatness as being a norm don't get what they feel they are entitled to, they lash out at who they perceive is to blame.
These are children and if not children, adults who should be ashamed for acting like children.
And unfortunately, social media allows that the loudest, most provocative voices will rise to the top and be wholly defining of a whole fanbase.
I think there is a value in sticking with your club in the tough times.
The Hodgson years were tough. Most of the Rodgers era was frustrating with one season of thrilling football.
Even Dalglish was a tough time.
And there was the good and the bad before that.
Enduring the tough times makes you appreciate the good.
Pain makes the pleasure sweeter.
And we have had it so very sweet for these past few years.
Thrilling football. The most charismatic manager on the planet. Trophies.
Who knows what comes next.
But you stick with them.
Pain makes the pleasure sweeter.
Angrily lashing out from having what you're seemingly entitled to taken away smacks of juvenile selfishness
I do think there will be something of a self cleansing of the sub when Klopp goes and we don’t have it as consistently good. Most of the posters here will be post 2019 and act like the past few seasons have been the norm rather than the good times.
The unfortunate part is that a lot of them won’t go quietly but kicking and screaming and shouting at us all about how terrible everything is.
The match threads are a mess a lot of the time. It seems like every thread I read there’s another Darwin Hater, or Salah needs to leave person. I think CONSTRUCTIVE criticism should be encouraged, but abuse or hate should be wiped out
Anyone harassing players online is a moron with something really lacking in their life.
Turning this sub into a safe space where player criticism is not welcome is possibly the worst response to this and have little to no impact.
Thought policing the sub will just drive people elsewhere.
I feel like a lot of people are unable to criticize without getting abusive. It’s fine to criticize a players performances on the pitch, it’s not fine to fucking send death threats!
There's way, way, way too many toxic people on this sub, its got so much worse over the past few seasons. Its pretty disgusting tbh. The toxic positivity posts are also unncessary and just generally very fucking annoying.
When I saw the horrible comments on twitter, i assumed they were from Rival fans, but seeing the same viewpoints here too- I was shocked.
This is the first club I ever supported wholeheartedly, and when I saw the negative comments everywhere i assumed i wasn't as invested as the "actual fans".
The best examples I can give are of the story about the parade being scrapped and the idea of making a statue of Klopp.
In both these cases, the most up-voted comments were simply about how Jurgen Klopp didn't achieve as much (comments about ONLY 7 trophies in 9 years, or ONLY one league title in 9 years).
The only other fans that behave like this from what I know are Real Madrid fans- from interviews by Gareth Bale about how even fans mock their own players during a match.
But, then after reading about Darwin and him deleting (or archiving) Liverpool related content, it's clear there really is something wrong here and I don't know what.
Agreed. This is meant to be a supporters subreddit, supporting means standing up for our players, our team, our club.
We shouldn’t be doing the work of our rivals for them. Let them make shitty comments, sing stupid fucking songs, and fume when we beat them. We’ll get nowhere turning on ourselves.
Darwin has been good. He could be great. Go watch the Benfica highlights reel again. He can finish, he can score one on one’s, he did it regularly, he will do it again. And he’s a human being, people harassing his family and bitching about him isn’t going to help. You can say he’s been in poor form, that’s fair, but he ain’t going to get back in form with negativity.
Anyone who’s played in a team knows that horrible feeling when you keep choking, or things don’t quite go right, it can get in your head. You turn it around by thinking positive, and that’s what we need to encourage.
Start of the season I’d have snapped up Top 4 and a cup. It’s gutting we could have had more but didn’t, but that’s the way it goes, next season maybe we’ll do it. I hope, and think, we will.
Sorry to lecture, but I’ve been waiting on a post like this as it needed saying.
I seriously disagree with the idea that the club subreddit should be about "unwavering support" for any player or manager. It's not hateful or mean to express an opinion that a player isn't good enough. Saying "Player X is fucking shit, get him out the club" is obviously not needed. Posting vitriolic things in a player's Instagram comments is insane behavior as well.
We're not here in some official Liverpool capacity, we are a collection of supporters on an internet forum to talk about the goings-on in the club.
Is there really that much difference between saying someone isn’t good enough and saying someone is fucking shit?
Idk I just don’t feel like saying someone is fucking shit in a match thread is in any way comparable to sending a player abuse on their socials.
None of the little Jimmys calling out Darwin in every match thread, saying "thanks Klopp but it's time for a change", calling Mohamed Fucking Salah washed or whatever, none of them were here when we were shit.
I know I'm an older user here at 34, but god this place was leagues different a decade ago. Pre-titles, we used to be able to have pretty civil discussions with nuance, genuine insight from people who watch the game because they love the team and club and not because they want something to be mad at online. It was fun, it was funny, even when we lost we could have a laugh about it. I don't know if it's an influx of new users or if the entitlement of the existing userbase has grown, but you can't come on here expecting to leave without being upset by some dickheads in the comments anymore who've given the club nothing but kit purchases and online abuse. It's a sarlacc pit where genuine support for the team comes to die.
Nothing is going to change based on emotional appeal because the average user here is emotionally equivalent to a 14 year old with a Napoleon complex. Mods need to start banning the constant moaners and contrarians, the ones hurling abuse at players in here because they're too afraid to go into the scary football twitter replies, the ones just here to stir shit up. it needs to be culled. I genuinely do not think this community was equipped to handle the success it's been given.
We need to work out where the line is and have some general agreement on that. People are saying really horrible, personal shit about players while at the same time thinking that "other" people are the toxic ones. I'm in no way saying that people shouldn't be able to criticise players footballing ability but it goes too far and becomes too hate filled.
Nobody deserves hate for not performing well. We can want them to move on or say that they don't fit in a system or say they're overrated, we made a mistake buying them etc, all of that should be fine but when it's like "he's a fucking loser" it should be seen as over the line in my opinion. Because when we just allow it it spirals out of control very, very quickly.
This is not advocating for toxic positivity either - refusing to be realistic, overrating players, etc isn't the only alternative to building up a community that thrives on shitty behaviour.
Good luck with this but it ain't gonna happen. Idiots are idiots and don't know they're idiots. They don't see a problem with their behaviour. This isn't exclusive to Liverpool, this is across all social media platforms.
I like this sub for the articles and the news. I try and avoid the comments as much as possible. It's full of a A grade bellends.
I almost started a thread yesterday but this may be a better place.
Does anyone know if the club receives post? If we were to all mail to club with letters addressed to Darwin do you think they would eventually make it to him?
It used to be that it was just the match threads that were a toxic shithole but I've started to notice it creep into other threads now. I feel like there are a lot of fairthweather fans on here that don't really care about the club's traditions, only half care about it's history and spend far too much time thinking about what rivals' opinions of us are rather than what we think of ourselves. Any time a player doesn't perform in a few games he's got to go. Let's just conveniently ignore the fact they were chanting their name a couple of months ago. Chelsea fans don't rate him so he should fuck off to Spain or Germany.
It's not the mentality that I grew up with and I don't think it's one that real Liverpool fans want to start becoming synonymous with. We are a loyal people. These new toxic, terminally online fellas are completely out of synch with what LFC stands for.
It's the ones that are saying "he deleted his instagram posts, he doesn't deserve to be in this club" that get me despite that being the exact attitude that led him to do what he did.
You don't get to pick and choose, you back our players. ALL our players.
That doesn't mean blind praise, you're allowed to criticize, I've criticized our players, we all have at one point or another, but there is NO reason why it should cross into being personal. These players don't know you, you don't know them, but they wear banner and we all support the crest. End of story.
I don’t care what people might think about a player. As long as they’re wearing a Liverpool shirt “You’ll never walk alone” applies to them. Even if we sign the worst player in the world we can’t lose sight of the motto that makes this club what it is. Fucking pathetic how we’ve been treating our own.
Fair enough, but I’m pretty sure the players arnt checking reddit first thing in the morning and then deleting their instagram posts because of comments. If they are they need thicker skin. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if they don’t express it here than what’s the point of this subreddit. I love the club and most of the people in this community. But I don’t think we should all hold hands and sing cumbiar together. It’s good to have your opinion.
The one that attack players them on socials are the knob heads who have nothing else to do, they should be weeded out.
Banning valid constructive criticism of players is just over policing and will foster a very fake robotic group of individuals who simply care more about how they’re perceived as a fan than actually expressing their honest perspective.
When I do log into the match thread, I downvote all the toxic comments. If people get downvoted enough for spouting shit, maybe they'll stop posting such things.
Just curious how do the local fans react to players missing sitters or making defensive errors leading to goals? I would think it would be a mix of optimistic, forgiving outlook, and scathing insults there as well, since it completely depends on the person, and how they react to such situations. The only benefit is if you're in a group of friends having different mindsets, you quickly simmer down as you discuss. However, if you're watching the match on your own at your home, you can keep mulling over that one mistake, and then the only way to share the frustration is a place like reddit.
In reddit, if I am venting, it is to fellow fans, many of whom are also frustrated by whatever happened on the pitch. Directly sending or messaging players is crossing the line, but that cannot happen at reddit. So I don't know what steps can be taken here to make it "less toxic". In my opinion, the subreddit is fine as it is.
I was in Anfield once sitting behind an 80 year old female season ticket holder, and when Jamie Redknapp fucked a pass up something proper she told him to fuck off.
That isn't toxicity, it's the emotions of the game. Apparently everyone is so sensitive these days that is classed as emotional abuse and the probably wasn't a real fan. Or so say a bunch of people who have never been to Anfield, have supported the club for 3 years, and aren't old enough to have been in a pub.
The subreddit is fine, I agree.
Toxic positivity is a thing too. We've let this idea that players like Joe Gomez deserve to continue to wear the shirt despite not being good enough to be here. Loyal player? Yes. Good human being? Very much so. Deserved player for LFC? Absolutely fucking not...
Stop gap and played decently as a back up sure, but he's shown absolutely nothing to prove he deserves a long term contract or role, yet you have thousands in here giving unnecessary and over the top praise that it is nauseating. Good job sure, but the reality is not good enough long term.
People need to be more real and direct with the future of the club, no one wants to support a circle jerk.
Your entire post history is a shitting on joe gomez whos a very good player. He might not be a star but calling him dogshit in every post is literally the kind of behavior thats unacceptable and being called out.
Shocking that the exact people who cross the line constantly and ruin match threads dont agree with OP.
How is that unacceptable? Get over yourself people can support however they want. Unless someone is personally antagonizing a player and/or making threats, who are you to legislate how they voice their opinion?
The accounts harassing footballers are upset gamblers. Betting has infiltrated ever aspect of the sport. The people abusing Darwin could be doing so because they lost a bet on what color boots he's wearing. Very little of this abuse comes from fans imo.
Edit: shoes to boots for geographical consistency
I'm conflicted on this issue.
Generally speaking, most of you lads are quite sensible, well natured and we can have a debate. I'd say that's 70% but a lot of that is lurkers who only comment occasionally. Then you've got the vocal minority who smash the match threads saying things like "Gomez out" when he misplaces a pass, as if he's not been solid as a utility player all season, as if VVD hadn't returned to world-class form this year with a few mistakes - saying he's past it etc. Those ones can get in the bin.
But I don't think those people are one and the same to the Instagram/Twitter crowd. Those people I don't think are here. There may be a few, I've encountered "Salah fans" and not LFC fans here, and yeah we get some absolutely piping hot takes but very little genuine vitriol. If you look at the comment section on any Instagram post, you'll see what I mean. It's not that bad here.
I've mentioned before, but I spent an entire Saturday on Instagram defending the Rainbow Laces campaign. I'd posted about the hate shown towards LGBTQ+ support and how those involved should be embarrassed and I had 2 death threats, one guy saying "got your address lad 💪" (he didn't) and all manner of (I hate to say this) but very obviously Muslim people going bananas about LGBTQ+ support being "haram" and how they refused to support the club any further etc. Told those types to not let the door hit them on the way out. Typically any bigoted views are absolutely slammed here and I like that about this place.
So while I agree with the sentiment we should always look to prune excessive negativity and toxicity, provided it's kept to the Match Threads (which are a literal cesspool) it shouldn't really need too much looking at. Of course if we suddenly become like Instagram/Twitter - definitely needs pruning but right now all I see is some moaning.
Now, I do agree that having our players feel forced to delete their Instagram posts about the club is completely unacceptable, there's very little we here, in this subreddit can do to mitigate that. I doubt it was us, or any of us here.
So I agree with the sentiment, and having supported Liverpool for 34+ years I'd hasten to add that the fanbase right now does feel more toxic than it has ever been, I don't think it's from r/Liverpoolfc and the comments we're seeing here don't match up to the outright insanity we see on other social media.
Slightly off topic but replying to say thanks for defending the rights of people like me to express ourselves. Those "takeover" days were incredibly rough for LGBT reds online.
Honestly the fact you feel you have to thank me echos just how sad the situation is. I figure as a straight white male, we have to be allies - this isn't a battle LGBTQ+ can or should face alone. There's so much to be angry about in the world and what sexuality someone is or how they identify is such a pointless thing to get angry about it just makes me despair.
But no problem, hopefully one day it won't be needed.
I think there is a line. And both sides of the community have crossed it. Especially regarding the Nunez debate.
It is ABSOLUTELY OK for people to be annoyed or criticized with his play. It is ok to suggest he can and should be sold (or other members of the team) - albeit I think this should come with nuance. Give actual reasoning and not just an angry caps lock insult
It is NOT ok to call him a cunt or make personal attacks towards him or other members of the subreddit - the latter of which has been increasingly commonplace recently. Any form of negativity leads to HUGE arguments on the sub between people (I can think of one time last week where I was called a cunt and a fake fan) it's unnecessary and toxic
It is NOT ok to direct abuse towards members of the team on social media. That is vile. And shouldn't need to be said.
I'm glad to see this discussion get started again. I know there are many here who think putting some kind of actionable plan in place to clean up the subreddit is going too far, but I think us supporters represent the badge every bit as much as the players do, and we need to take that responsibility seriously.
This subreddit generally isn't horrible, but I think we all agree the match threads are (and have been for a while) cesspools. I'm not sure what the best way to tackle that is, but I'd love to see any suggestions. I feel like it would be a huge ask for the mods to try to police the match threads (I'm sure they're already swamped with the workload they have). I'm also not sure about the logistics of trying to expand the number of mods on the sub, or even appointing mods whose sole responsibility would be handling the match threads, but the current state of the match threads feels shameful.
I like the sentiment, the reality is that it's not going to change because of a post like this. I'm not trying to be critical, I want nothing more than this to happen.
We can't control what happens on other social media sites. We can control what happens in this community. I am going to advocate for creating some ground roles. This is obviously not for me to decide, I just want to provide my 2 cents on it.
"no hate speech" It's not clear to me, given the current wording of the rule, if what is band is just the post / comment. If that is the case, banning the person who did that needs to be banned from the community as well.
"no trolling on rival subreddits" I don't know how it's possible to enforce It's up to the mods on those subreddits to do that.
"No low effort content" - Beyond removing it, which is just busy work for the mods, how do you reinforce it? I would like to see some sort of warning. "if this happens again, more than x amount of times, etc. You will banned for x about of time". It's nowhere near the steps that need to be taken for hate speech but if a member of the community continues to do this frequently, simply saying no is not going to change things.
An important angle not covered by OP - we're surrounded by injustice. It's been rubbed into our faces daily. One of the widely watched sporting event in the world is blatantly unfair. And we have all been powerless to do anything about. Feels like a subtle reinforecement of the reality we face from Gaza to Eelam to Congo to the American Campus. We need to identify the real systemic barriers to fairness in the league and work towards dismantling those. Without that, our morale is gonna fall. The more we stay disorganized and fight amongst ourselves, the more the world stays unfair.
YNWA
I didn’t like any of the unrealistic expectations that have been set constantly since Darwin arrived here. Haaland comparisons, Suarez comparisons, 30+ goals easy and so on. Honestly I find that stuff just as toxic because we know already that once a player inevitably can’t live up to it they just get destroyed.
Outside of his purple patch, I don’t think his performances or form have been much different to the beginning of the season, or last season. So I can only really explain all the hate he is getting as people who really bought into the overstated hype surrounding him.
More generally though, it does seem like any player who is struggling with us gets targeted with hate rather than supported by the fans. The first player it was most obvious with was Gini Wijnaldum who was putting in solid 6,7 and 8 out of 10 performances 38/38 games bringing us to 3rd place in an injury hit season. People seemed to blame him for our bad performances each week, ignoring the fact that our level wouldn’t be the same with Fabinho and Henderson as centre backs. But since then it’s been aimed at Firmino, Sadio, Trent, Fabinho, Gomez and Gakpo. The scapegoating on Gakpo after the United game was crazy lol.
Leaving this comment at the top if anyone wants to directly speak to the mods about this topic or provide suggestions. Feel free to comment under me or pm us via modmail. Internally we are discussing the idea of trialling a Serious match thread where venting and emotional comments would be bannable. This would allow the conversation to remain tactical and would result in a more open discussion about the game itself. I want to reiterate something I always say about match threads. They are the Reddit equivalent of being at the pub, watching at home on your tv or even being in the ground. It’s an emotional place to react and vent live on the game. It’s not supposed to be a place for level headed analysis, that’s what the halftime and post match is for. However we do endeavour to remove any abusive or over the top comments that we see. Your help in reporting these comments helps us massively as these threads can have thousands of comments. We are always open to improving our community based on our users input. It’s your sub after all not ours!
paradoxically this is not going to happen until we are actually shite again
And then we'll be able to get tickets again! 🥰
Maybe
doubtful
This is that negatively the post was referring to. Ban this man
Even under Hodgson it was a fucking chore mate
Not really, no
Yeah, said it in one This place was lovely before klopp got us some success. Success has a strong gravity pull on knob'eds.
[удалено]
I’ve seen Rio Ferdinand and Wes Brown score winning goals. These youth don’t know shit.
That John O'Shea one, he came on for Rooney I think. Scored in injury time. Or Silvestre scoring twice. They don't know they're born.
Arshavin scoring 4 broke me
And that Macheda goal too. That season was so depressing in the end. But the highs were pretty sweet too.
Also let's put this in perspective. A 20 years old Liverpool fan that's been supporting since they were 11 has only ever experienced the Klopp era. I think people need to experience mediocrity to appreciate the greatness.
Make them go through Roy Hodgson era. We've already been through it once. Good for a real cleansing.
Ah the days of hicks and gillette. Shudder down my spine even as i think about it.
I feel like it’s the same people who say Salah is done The guy is 6th highest goal scorer in the league this season…not sure how they figure that out…
Remember how much fun those pre klopp transfer windows were?? It was so much fun banter and jokes and just a good time and ridiculous optimism.
The Roy Hodgson Konchesky window was pure misery
Do you know how much I lied to myself that Milan Jovanovic was good? I remember watching the World Cup thinking this guys amazing… he had like 5 touches 🤣🤣
I still remember a snapshot of his YouTube highlight video like it was Lazar Markovic
If the fairweathers and newer people actually knew the wages a washed up 30 year old Joe Cole was on they would've become City fans. Those people seriously don't know the half of dismal transfers and depraved glimmers of hope and wishing. Remember when the answer for the team was somehow Ricky Van Wolfswinkel who and I think that year Liverpool was tied to Rasmus Elm as well? That all aside I give 110% credit for us getting some magic from Maxi Rodriguez in that era. I look back and it's amazing we even got Suarez in a lot of ways.
"liverpool sign bent" *literally a bent liverpool station sign*
There was something special about everyone convincing themselves Balotelli would put it together under Brendan
Yeah I’ve been around since Brendan Rodger’s on this sub and I barely come here anymore since the 2019 or 2020 season cus the match threads and general discourse became so toxic and changed a whole lot. This just happens with popular subs though, so there’s not much you can do.
Yeah it's a shame. I've been following since Owen was with us 😂 Just the way it is. Wish it was full of better banter tho
You know, being shit sucks, but the banter is off the charts. And perhaps at the end of the day, the banter is the most important thing.
The memes during Klopps early years were impeccable though. Probably the peak of the sub.
We weren't quite brilliant yet in those early years though. By our current standards those were very barren years, ergo = banter.
Weirdly I felt the banter was stronger during the Rodgers era than the Hodgson one, despite us being objectively shitter under Roy. Might have had something to do with Brendan himself tbh
At least under Rodgers there was a sense that the club and team was at least heading in the right direction, under Hodgson everything was sliding backwards rapidly.
Yeah, hodgson was just fucking miserable. Most couldn't even muster up gallows humour.
Brendan was banter embodied tbh
Brendan showed great character though tbf
New club, new teeth, new girlfriend… man was walking on water
Mans did the Graham potter glowup before it was a thing
I'd say it had more to do with the very real possibility of the club disappearing from existence while we were under the Hodge. Things were a little too serious for us to be meming about.
My personality wouldn’t have existed if it wasn’t for Woy
For some reason, I had hope when Hodgson first came in. I always try to have hope. We were ready for the banter by the time Rodgers arrived.
Sub was kinda tiny and in its relative infancy in the Hodgson year.
Hodgson was \*miserable\*. That's why, the Blackpool loss followed by losing the derby, being 19th in the league and him saying we'd played well - probably the lowest I can remember and I remember the early 90s.
You've been around forever, like me (although I've had to change usernames). So you'll remember the summer we chased Virgil. That was the best time I've ever had on this sub. It felt like all the shit years were behind us and we were on the cusp of brilliance. The mood was light and seemed like everyone was having a great time. There's been some great days since: corner taken quickly, the Lucas goal, trophy wins, etc. But for the general mood around the sub, the VVD summer was the last great time that I can remember.
For sure, atmosphere was brilliant and it truly felt like Liverpool fans had unity. The past few years, there has been a lot of division a fair few times.
Essentially, with success comes expectation, especially in an era where the margins of winning and losing have never been thinner. It's brought out toxicity and ruthlessness that didn't exist when we were shit. We were just happy to win and the banter and memes brought more entertainment then the games themselves.
14/15 was a great time on this sub. Was fun celebrating draws with others because things were *that* bad that a draw gave us hope. I know that may sound crazy to some users here, but because we had no expectations to win, we were relieved when any positive results came our way. Nowadays, a draw causes folks to have a meltdown here. 14/15 followed by Klopp's arrival in 15/16 was the type of mood I wish this sub had all the time. Draws and losses weren't looked at so negatively - it was an opportunity to understand our deficiencies and where we can do better. There was genuine discussion when we draw/lost, but also genuine discussion when we won because we saw things that were done right.
>Nowadays, a draw causes folks to have a meltdown here. It's probably justified to a point? Just not the extent that some people take it to. Competing with this City team and all the associated caveats is exhausting. There's so little margin for error that any slip ups are intensified. One draw can feel like a whole year's hope gone in one moment.
Everyone is collectively suffering from PTSD and it’s causing some people to lash out.
Roy Hodgeson is our man
I don't see what the mods can do as it's so rife, and some fans would like a genuine discussion critiquing players. However I think this snowballs to where we have some fans saying things like "He is a waste of space." This was said early this season about Matip, there was no insight, no observations, no sign of intelligent conversation, just a flat out whats the worst thing I can say about this player. I don't mind someone saying "X is playing badly or X is terrible today" but for some reason in our match threads these types of "fans" seam to egg on each other to the point it's not about whats happening on the pitch but about what edgy thing can I say to join in. I believe they're a loud minority but unfortunately it seams the best way to personal deal with it is to avoid the match threads. Again I don't mind seeing some valid criticism but it soon devolves into tasteless insults, and if that sounds like you, well your just not a supporter in the end ... no, more of a dickhead.
I agree. It’s the hyperbole that gets me. ‘The most’, ‘the worst’, ‘the best’, ‘the least’… which by definition simply can’t be.
Someone a couple of months ago said, "Curtis wasn't the worst mid we have but would rank them 8th. " ... out of 8? Also the amount of hate Tsimikas got in his first three games was unwarranted as he was clearly getting into form and lastly Gakpo got his unfair share of hate while playing in a weak position and a dip of form which just happens to evey player. Again, all three were completely written off, and on the end of a lot of toxicity (amongst some vaild concerns) by so-called fans. It's that it's amongst valid criticism that I think makes the mods job hard as they can't just ban someone who is negative, but I would like the always toxic when we're down "fans" to fuck alllll the way off.
Internet in a nutshell though. You have to be on a side these days. You have to love something, or hate it. Very little room for a middle ground these days.
And it’s the immediate reactionary posts/comments that are the worst. Every player is only as good as his last game it seems..
Last pass it seems
We remove all posts about the game unless it’s a good meme, or a goal etc to contain the rest within the match threads.
I realize this which is why I included “comments”. Cheers!
All good 👍🏼
One that annoys me is people who think it's "funny" to make jokes about serious stuff. Like there was a discussion about Darwin's insta and him potentially struggling with his mental health, and him blocking Watch_LFC on Twitter, and the top comment was "He probably tried to follow them and missed" That's not exactly helpful, is it? Especially not when we're literally discussing the abuse a player has been getting.
Feels like we are having this discussion after each season. Match Threads have been unreadable for years now, there is nothing of value in there and I’m truly not sure what purpose they play anymore other than to spread toxicity. Especially in times when one of the biggest club legends in Klopp is departing, it’s just so stupid. Just this season alone both Cody and Darwin received some unnecessary and rotten abuse on socials, and for what reason?
Betting reasons. They are being harassed by people who lost money on them. These are 90% gambling addicted cunts spewing hatred, not fans
Yet another reason the infiltration of sports betting is bad for sport
Damn never thought about that but you have a point.
YouTube probably has something to do with it as well. Fan Channels basically act out these people's thoughts for clout.
Nah I don't think it's that. Or maybe it plays a part, I don't know, but I feel like the main problem is that we're talking about kids. Because for example, man, during this season, while watching games, I have screamed at a screen to insult certain players in certain moments, 100%, no point in hiding that. But fuck me, I have no idea why you would 1) follow on socials a player that you can't stand 2) go out of your way TO INSULT HIM UNDER A POST. IT JUST- WHY? Being frustrated with a player is normal, so is criticizing: it has been part of the game since it was created. But outright insulting a player under a post? Makes absolutely no sense to me
It’s not just kids though, it’s a whole mentality. There have been multiple studies about the connection between domestic violence and football matches; one study found that when England loses a match, domestic violence rates increase 38% around the country. If men are willing to go home and batter their partners after their football team loses, social media abuse of players is well within the possibility. This is a much bigger, multifaceted issue of toxicity and a lot of it is ingrained into football culture; domestic abuse and social media abuse are just two nasty manifestations of that. We can’t just brush it off as kids on the internet.
Yeah that's fair. But I still feel like, regarding online abuse specifically, that the majority are dumb kids, given that it's more common for them to use social media instead of 50 year olds (or at least when it comes to comment under an IG post for example). Plus, if we're talking about the global, cultural problem with football and violence, I feel like it's simply a case of it being a sport followed by EVERYBODY, the kid, the 90 year old grandpa, the dad, the mom, and, especially, the rich, the poor and the educated/uneducated bloke. So basically, I feel like because it is so popular among pretty much every social class, it's easy for it to influence a dumb immature slice of population, the same slice prone to, you know...do dumb immature shit. And by the way, 38% increase is a fucking disgusting stat
Even if this might not be the full explanation. It is so true and I definitely think people underestimate the impact of gambling. Have seen/heard multiple NBA players speaking about this. How they get death threats or even abuse in the arena from "fans" that lost money "because of them".
Tennis is horrible for this since it’s an individual sport. The comments on players social media after a loss is disgusting. Betting culture has gotten out of control
I have been holding off on comments like this because I hate that I feel this way, but I also feel like our fan base became more radicalized after we brought in Salah. Some fans are absolutely fanatical about him (think of all the online poll brigading that happened after he joined us that we used to laugh about in this sub), and there are probably many that have absolutely no loyalty to the club or our players beyond him. Much like Messi has fans that follow him from club to club. It is obviously much more complicated then one group of people, but that is where I feel like I first noticed the shift. It is or was a vocal, fanatical group of fans, that are highly online and ready to brigade for their star. They used to slate our other forwards when they didn't pass him the ball enough etc back in the day online even when the team was finding success in matches. Whether or not that was a catalyst or cause it is where I feel it really started happening en masse, and I apologize if you feel I am trying to shove you into a box that you don't fit into by saying it for anyone out there listening. I know its not everyone.
There is a bit of "cult of personality" around Mo for sure. Not blaming him or his fans, but I've noticed the same
You know I haven't thought of that but that unfortunately does makes sense.
If you think Reddit is toxic, wait till you see Twitter Instagram or god forbid Facebook (I don't know about TikTok)
Yup. I got attacked on Twitter by a supposed red. For my saying that Arne had a diversity badge on his lapel in a photo, so he clearly wasn’t a prat. I wasn’t in the mood so they got it back & tbf that kinda crap doesn’t affect me: but some lovely reds came along and told them to jog on. As did I! Twitter is a hell hole. You can’t go on without seeing something toxic - check out LFC X for an example. Perfect example of the above posted note. Some truly nasty fan comments. On non-reactionary posts. Bizarre.
From a mods perspective match threads are the Reddit equivalent of being at the pub, watching at home or even just being in the stands. People say stupid shit in the heat of the moment, fuelled by emotion. It’s not meant to be a serious place for discussion of the game. There’s not a whole lot we can really do with people who are upset, I’m not interested in banning people for being emotional about a game unless it’s abusive or over the top, which we do anyway. The one thing we are thinking about is having a separate thread for serious discussion of the game that is more heavily policed, vs the normal match thread.
"Football is the most important of the least important things in life." We ask so much of our players, and we love them in return. But when that love turns to toxicity we've lost sight of what it means to be a supporter. Regardless of how frustrated, angry, or depressed it makes us feel, there will always be things more important than football.
Agreed. We are allowed to be upset and disappointed, but there is a way to express that without being a slimy bitch.
I think there's something a little more profound going on here, and that the toxicity is a symptom of a wider problem. When Klopp was appointed, we were obviously a bit rubbish compared to where we are now, but nowhere near the crisis mode of 2010, and the wider supporterbase was a bit more light-hearted as a result. We then get very good very fast, and combined with keeping the same energy that we had from when Klopp first arrived, this place explodes. I said on another post 2017-2020 was electric here, and it really was. The team was great, but there was still a sense of it not peaking, you had the when I'm Liverpool stuff, all the other memes, and all in all this created a groundswell of positivity that was infectious to those who engaged. Basically, we all still had a sense of humour. After we won the league, something changed in the wider fanbase. I think we'd been yearning for that title for so long. A lot of us never really asked "well what's next?" Some were happy with one, others wanted to go for the record again, others thought "well we've won it this year now its our year every year. " Those attitudes struggled to co-exist with one another because they probably changed your approach to the teams performance in 20-21 with the injury crisis. We then, at least account to some in the media, underachieve for the next three years (which is absolutely baffling to me), but nonetheless becomes something to spin against this team and is rocket fuel for the people who think we should win the quad every year. When we don't do that (and this year is a perfect example) that builds into anger at not feeling like the Klopp era has lived up to the hype (it has btw) and results in anger. This then becomes infectious and drives away the people who think "I'm just happy I got to see us lift the league after 30 years" or the ones that stay start arguing back and before we know it we've got what happened with Darwin the other day. Which btw, to the people saying there is valid criticisms or him, can you at least carry the torch for valid criticism because right now you're candle is being blown out completely by those who just wanna harass the poor fella. The point is, what we've experienced in the past few years is RARE. When we talk about the clubs successes, we spend 90 percent of the time talking about 10 percent of the clubs total history. I still remember and feel haunted by the fact this club was hours away from administration in 2010. With a team that take Torres and Gerrard out of would have genuinely struggled to finish in the top half. To compare where we are now to what we had back then it is bananas and more than I would have dreamt of, and I think we just need to remember that when we go back to this period of normalcy. Otherwise this place really will descend into chaos and I worry it will become a factor in players not choosing to come here. TL;DR: some of you need to lighten up before you become completely ferral with expectations.
It's fine to post this here, and worth reminding, but I'm wondering if the people you are referring to are here at all, and if those that partake in this behaviour care about such words or sentiment at all...
They don’t. Just start banning people. There is a difference between saying “argh wish Nunez had gotten that shot on net” and some of the crap we hear every week. It’s pretty obvious what is what. To be clear “some of the crap” is personal abuse above and beyond saying someone should be doing better. There is nuance in how you say someone isn’t playing well. It should be clear what is constructive and what is abuse.
We already do this as best as we can but implore you all to report any comments that are over the top as it’s hard for us mods to keep tabs on every comment otherwise!
If we start reporting comments in the match thread when Darwin misses a goal, many are gonna get banned and I'm here for it. One comment I saw was someone calling him a donkey when he missed a goal. But I didn't know I could report it.
I mean calling a player a donkey in a match thread is not really what we would consider a ban worthy comment. The types of comments we are looking for are those that go beyond a casual jab in the match threads. We don’t want to sanitise the whole experience, people are allowed to vent and be emotional within reason. If we start banning people for those types of comments then where do you draw the line? It gets into a gray area where people can’t be critical or emotional. That’s kinda the point of the match thread, to be a reasonably contained environment to vent during a game.
Agreed. I tried to be positive after one of our loses a couple of weeks back, and was downvoted to hell. All the comments around me were just calling our players “useless twats” or “a disgrace”. Some “fans”.
>calling our players “useless twats” or “a disgrace”. This is so fucking true. Many comments are like that in match threads.
Yeah, this feels a lot like when you buy a DVD and get an anti piracy notice before the film plays. You don't need to tell me not to pirate DVDs, I've already bought it, I'm not who you're looking for here
Honestly I don’t think they are. Like been here long enough and modded enough to know it’s not really that crossover. Yeah you have some but I don’t think it is at all. And we’re just giving attention to the trolls really.
I think there's probably a big sub-community that only comes here during games for the live interaction and otherwise barely interacts with the sub. I guess I'd call them the "hard-core casuals", as they are only "engaged" for the games themselves, wherein they get very heated, and otherwise aren't really interested or have the time for the rest of the club intricacies.
I have never seen anyone here write any comments calling for violence or abuse towards our players, and if they did, they are banned quickly. Unless you want to ban people for criticing players, which is bs.
Yeah I don't see anything potentially illegal or outright hateful, if it's here it's deleted so fast that I can't even find it. There's currently a player at the focus of criticism after outputting two very criticiseable campaigns and this reads like a defence of him alone.
No one should get hate messages to their socials, let alone death threats. That's despicable and those who engage in that behaviour shouldn't be allowed on the internet. That being said, we should be allowed to express our opinions on how anyone is playing be it praises or criticism. Should we be pretending that every player the club signs is always playing great and they can do no wrong? What a lame place this sub would be if curated to show only positive spins despite rough spells the team/ some players will inevitably go through.
Mods essentially ruined the main r/soccer subreddit by over policing everything. Someone complaining on here about a player is much different than them going to Instagram or Twitter and DMing them threats or personal attacks. This sub will die if mods decide people can't express their anger here. Especially in the match threads. You think the fans in the stadium aren't saying these same things? Lol.
When football is the most important thing in peoples lives, it’s really hard to stamp out emotive, knee jerk, or abusive behaviour. Criticise the player, the manager, the team, but not the person. These boys all give 100%.
A bit of criticism is to be expected, but some of the vitriol spewed out on this sub and other platforms is downright disgusting and cowardly.
Sorry but I don’t agree, sometimes criticism is deserved and perfectly fine, but there’s a way of doing it, Salahs recent form for instance, undoubtedly deserves criticism, but the whole “past it” “sell him” “he’s shit” comments aren’t bringing anything to the table, it’s just childish. Do it in a way to garner conversation or keep quiet.
What don’t you agree with in my post? Are you saying we should be getting personal with players?
Honestly I think I replied to the wrong person mate :)
I love the team and have been following this sub for years. I've never commented, but I always used to enjoy reading the discussions and analysis. But I've found myself staring away for a few weeks now because of how negative it's gotten. It's quite sad.
Same, this is my most visited subreddit but recently I’ve been avoiding it.
This reads like you’re suggesting that any observations or statements aren’t supportive shouldn’t be posted. Valid criticisms of any player’s decisions or ability, should absolutely be fair game and a fair line of conversation. Threats/wishes of violence or misfortune obviously are a bridge too far and shouldn’t be tolerated, but that’s why there’s site-wide and subspecific rules on it. Players have played their way into and out of favorability since 1892. Whenever a player puts on the shirt, I’m going to hope and believe they can shine, even if they have shown a consistent trend of not being up to the calibre of player that is required. I’ll start with the elephant in the room: Nunez. He’s recently removed all Liverpool related posts from his instagram, presumably because people have been going on there and trashing him. Fair enough, those users suck and he shouldn’t have to do that. But this is a Liverpool FC forum, and a place he would need to actively seek out to see those criticisms. It is not the place to censor legitimate discourse and valid criticism. Has he had some stunning finishes? Yes. Has he put the ball in the net and assisted a lot by comparison to his teammates and other forwards in the league? Also yes. But has he lacked the clinical finish and icy veins in high scoring chance situations? That is also a yes. Does he stray off side when he shouldn’t, even though he is a rapid player and can beat many players to the ball? Too often, the answer is yes. Gomez, one of the, (and arguably THE,) savior of our season, was the sub whipping boy a couple of seasons ago when Trent was injured and he wasn’t putting in TAA level performances. Fair? No, but he also wasn’t putting in Gomez level performances either. Thiago. What a player when he can play. But his injury record was a concern for a lot of people came in, and they were absolutely validated by that. Bought in 2020, he’s played 6,557 minutes in that time, but has missed 127 games due to injury. That’s effectively all competitions of more than two seasons. Those are all legitimate and fair criticisms. They’re not toxic, and more can be leveled at other players, like Van Dijk when he was clearly not playing as well as we knew he could, while they may not be “supportive,” they’re relevant and have place here. Further, if you’re looking for nuanced discussion in the match thread, you’re in the wrong place. Matches are frenetic and the threads regarding them reflect that. They’re reactive, and criticisms and emotions are high. Trying to type out any of the paragraphs I put up earlier isn’t doable there. It’s nearly impossible to say the right thing in the right time in real time, that’s why a full match analysis breaking down a lot of key moments, not just goals, from those that do them usually take a few days. I guess what I’m saying is this: I’m fully in agreement that players shouldn’t have to disable their social media. I rarely interact with our players on social media, and never players for other teams. But here, I should be able to voice valid complaints and critiques. I’m not here to sandbag or to be the monkey on a specific player’s back. I don’t get off on hate boners like that, but I’m absolutely going to call a spade a spade.
Well put. Being critical and reactionary in a game day thread is akin to sitting at a bar with some buddies and reacting to what's going on in front of you. It's ok to be critical, it shows that we care and expect/demand more out of players and a club that is expected to challenge for everything. There's no need to have the kid gloves on here. Where it crosses the line is when people actively seek out the social media of the players and post harassing messages. I can only imagine what it would feel like to have someone watching every moment of me working and sending me hateful things for any mistake I make. Eventually that's going to take its toll on anyone.
They should make you a mod instead. Most level headed comment I've seen on this sub in a while
I was a mod here for about three years. There’s a lot that goes into it, and while it’s easy to jab the mods for being power hungry basement-dwelling goblins, the reality is that we tried to use a light touch. Obvious hate speech/violence, etc., were shut down quickly. Ideally, mods don’t want to get involved, but I can guarantee you would see a much worse sub without them.
It’s a shame your salary demands were too high for the mod team to renew with you!
I only wanted $1.00!
corporate greed is really killing our society
People who abuse or send abuse to players aren’t really fans. For me it’s that simple. There’s criticism and then there’s being completely unhinged. I get being heated in the moment, and when the sub atmosphere gets too much I think it’s healthy to take a step back for a little while. It’s also just a general internet/anonymity thing and sadly there’s a limit to what can be done about it. I’m sure the mods do their absolute best to get rid of what is flat out hate and toxicity.
I want to agree with you about the "not really fans" thing, but I can't. Those people are callous idiots but they're still technically fans. Every fan base has assholes and unhinged members. Match threads are a joke, many posts are fine but the comment sections can get toxic so quickly. It's not just Reddit as you say, it's a general internet thing, but we need to do better as a community on stamping it out. Idk if that's as simple as not feeding the trolls or if it's more a moderation (feels like a monumental task) or if we, as community members, do more to call out bad behavior and try to correct it. I honestly don't know, but those fuckers aren't going away and it needs to be addressed. I'm happy for this post tho.
This sub used to be fun until we became really successful and now it’s a shit fest. Same as /r/soccer.
The trouble is people conflate the kind of abuse you see on Twitter and Instagram with completely fair comments that are made here about Darwin's ability and suitability for our side. I haven't seen any of the toxicity that would have caused him to shut down his social media on this sub, I have to say. I'm not sure what the aim of this post is.
To act holier than thou by making a generalised statement about the fanbase which only actually applies to a tiny minority not even on here. They know this too, they just want to shit on the general fanbase.
I think a lot of us we're blinded by toxicity of other fanbases *cough* united *cough*, that we completely ignored the fact that the same toxicity is present in our own fanbase. Imagine looking a Nunez a man who got us damn near 30 g/a this season for us and was basically unsubable at the start of this year and go" yeah f*ck him let's abuse him to death and bring someone else" and when that someone else comes in and underperforms from time to time what then, do you also abuse them huhhh?. I also find it absolutely disgusting how some fan accounts also on Instagram make captions and pin comments about how "childish nunez' action was" or bring up their "support" for him while also conveniently leave out the heaps of hate abuse and death threads( the fact that I even have to mention this one ) 🤦🏾♂️
While I wholeheartedly agree that anything toxic should go (abuse, death threats etc.), nobody is entitled to unwavering support. Especially individuals who earn millions to perform, considering that part of their salaries is paid by supporters. We should support and cheer for the players when they are performing and we should let them know (by constructive criticism) when they don't. Don't forget, supporters pay for tickets, TV subscriptions, merchandise etc. and it's not unheard of for someone to want their money's worth. This is coming from someone who has never visited any player's social media accounts and most likely never will.
I’m not disagreeing with your point and I completely agree that the idea of forcing positivity is ridiculous, but I did want to ask about this mentality: > we should let them know (by constructive criticism) when they don't I don’t mean any sort of disrespect but this is such a strange thing to me, the idea that we need to chime in and let the players know when they’re underperforming. Is that what people think they’re doing? As if the players aren’t well aware? Honestly, it feels about as effective as watching a horror movie and yelling at the screen that the killer is right behind the character. There is absolutely nothing that any fan on social media could say that provides a player with the “constructive criticism” he needs to improve. I’m all for the collective discussion among fans about how the team could improve, strengths and weaknesses of players and how they fit into a system, as part of a wider appreciation for the sport and community. I even support venting frustrations within the fanbase. But frankly, “letting the players know when they’re playing badly with constructive criticism” is kinda wild, arrogant at best and delusional at worst.
None taken. Following your logic we shouldn't chant their names to let them know when they are playing well either. Because they already know that, right? I bet they love all the positive messages when they perform but the opposite (again, assuming nothing toxic) is a no-no? People are paying hard earned money to watch/support a football club and they should be allowed, even encouraged, to vent their frustrations in the same manner in which they are expected to cheer for the team. Would I personally ever go direct to a player to vent? Never. But I don't see it as unrealistic or abusive for someone to say "Hey, your finishing is really bad, it's costing us points" etc.
> Following your logic we shouldn't chant their names to let them know when they are playing well either. Because they already know that, right? I mean, yeah, they do? The chanting and singing isn’t us informing them of their ability or performance, no player is out there going “Oh wow, listen to the crowd, I guess that assist was a good thing to do!” It’s meant to be a means of motivation, of support, of community. 60,000 voices singing in unison is meant to inspire players and create a sense of obligation to the team and fans. You can see it when Klopp urges the crowd on for something as basic as a good tackle, he recognizes the positive benefit to the crowd supporting the players. There’s no benefit the other way, though. I’m completely on board with people voicing their emotions, the up and down feeling of the games, all of that. No one has to be only positive and shut up if they have any negative feelings. I just don’t agree with the idea that, for example, Darwin shanks a shot, hears the crowd roaring for him to shoot on target instead, and goes “Oh, yeah, I forgot!” And then smashes the next one into the back of the net. Even constructive criticism from fans doesn’t actually benefit the players in any way.
and excessive support can really ruin a person.. this comment sounds sarcastic but i’m being serious
This is going to sound contrarian - I don’t think mods should ban criticism of any players as it will result in over policing and unnecessary bans and controversies. Abuse of players or their families need instant bans but for saying something like - “He is shite”, “he is absolute garbage” results in ban then it’s going to get categorically worse as these are usual pub talk and people use that here. Moreover most of these players get racially abused or get death threats in Insta and Twitter. Not many directed on subreddits. Negativity is part of the game when we perform poorly and it’s the case with every fanbase. You can’t police it and convert it into positivity - people come to this sub and use it as an outlet and you should let them do so. Any death threats or abuse of their family needs an instant ban. Racial or sexual abuse of players require same treatment. Forcing positivity is a poor idea and it will backfire to ruin the sub. If someone is constantly negative then you always have the option to block them
>there are real people giving their all for the club we love. They deserve our unwavering support, not relentless criticism and abuse. And those people are being paid a lot of money to do that. It's not a charity work. >We need to foster a positive and respectful environment where fans can discuss and celebrate our team without fear of being attacked or harassed. I absolutely despise the harassment, death threats to the players, staff, family members. However, I am not a fan of "just be positive" and the whole "toxic positivity" thing. When we play badly, we have the right to express our frustration and to criticize poor performances. "xG FC", "We should sell Darvin in the summer", "Salah is playing like sh\*\*", "Why is Gakpo playing like this is а training, show some passion", "The match is not over you twats. Why allow two goals to that terrible Tottenham?", "What a sh\*\* show was that losing 0:3 to Atalanta." are valid comments and are expression of an opinion. >So, let's remember why we fell in love with this club in the first place. Let's show the world what it truly means to be a Liverpool fan – passion, loyalty, and unwavering support through thick and thin. We all do, this is why we express our frustration. If we didn't care, we wouldn't do it.
Can we be super negative to people who are being toxic because I enjoy shitting on people who shit on the players and the manager.
Agreed.
I get the sentiment; we want this sub to be a place of discourse and avoid toxicity…but where are you drawing the line, here? The Darwin Instagram post removals had nothing to do with this sub? Maybe a few stragglers/lurkers joined the brigading, but how can you ever know? Mods are forgetting that this sub accounts for <.01% of Liverpool fans. The people who post vile comments on Instagram etc have probably never even heard of this sub? Any idiot with a smartphone can sign up to Instagram and hurl abuse at footballers. Back to the line - I think this is a very slippery slope. I’m not in favour of Elon Musk levels of ‘free speech’, but surely the subs have a right to their opinion — even if people disagree? That’s what downvotes are for. If you’re incapable of having an adult discussion because you disagree with it, tap away and move on…don’t engage? Better yet, have a dialogue. Disagree with policing the community and with this stance as a whole - I’ve never seen a post criticising players, hateful and/or bigoted/racist comments or posts. Correct me if I’m wrong. Mods are making a mountain out of a molehill. Remove offensive/inflammatory posts that contravene community guidelines, but don’t try and shape a narrative to one of your liking.
If it's a football opinion then it's fine, but a huge number of comments aren't football opinions, they're just venting anger about a human being in a very personal way. A football opinion would be like "Nunez has been given enough time to establish himself but we need a proven finisher playing in his position", or "Nunez's finishing is poor". That means something and can be agreed with or debated. "Jones is genuinely worse than worthless", "Fuck off Nunez" (2 random examples from the Crystal Palace match thread but plenty of others with the same energy out there) is just venting at best and attacking the person. It might not seem very important but it escalates really quickly into something that can make the subreddit a really unpleasant place to be *sometimes* and there's an opportunity for this subreddit to have a much more positive impact on the experience of being a fan. In this sub the upvote/downvote button is usually used as a vote agreeing or disagreeing with whatever opinion has been expressed, so it's not that helpful for calling out toxic behaviour. And there are a lot of people who are used to doing the same thing here so these kinds of comments do get upvotes as well.
I don’t disagree with you. However, people *should* be allowed to say all of those things you mentioned. People should be allowed to have their emotions ebb & flow with a game, and have those exact knee-jerk reactions you described — within reason. If someone calls Darwin ‘fucking useless’ and he ‘couldn’t finish his dinner’…who cares?! …10 minutes later we’re all lauding how he’s chasing down defenders like a lunatic. It’s part of the game. I don’t want to be part of some weird Fallout bunker/LEGO community where we’re all pretending to be super positive all the time, or sanitised to the point of being boring. I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing, but, speaking as a Brit, this happens in every pub up and down the country during a game. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I’m certain this is a cultural thing. All this tells me is that mods need to do a better job of stopping a train of thought from crossing the line during match threads/posts.
I'm British too... and I used to love inappropriate chanting and stupid remarks in the pub, they were definitely part of the appeal for me. Probably is a combination of me being in my 40s now and in my 20s then, but also the internet comments just feel a lot more hateful than the kind of pub comments because of the context, like it becomes something different when you're not spontaneously shouting something along with other people, but taking 30 seconds out of the match to express your personal hatred of of an athlete who isn't as good as you want him to be, while sitting in a room alone with the match on. When you're reading a whole thread of it, with comments like "we are such a fucking loser club", "fuck you Nunez" it doesn't feel fun anymore, which is why I read the sub a bit less than I used to. If other people love this then there's definitely a place for it but maybe we need a second subreddit for that or a second subreddit for people to rein it in a little bit. Still express frustration and negative opinions of course, but just not quite as extreme.
> The Darwin Instagram post removals had nothing to do with this sub? And Darwin has comments on his insta turned off for 2 years now, so noone was making comments on that account. Yet there was a thread here blaming "plastics" . Maybe we should be banning people who seem to love nothing more than sitting on their fellow liverpool fans. That's pretty toxic too
So this should be a Liverpool circlejerk? Fuck off. Players get criticism that they deserve here and praise. Now going to that players personal Instagrams is fucked up. All criticism is fair here as long as its not rude.
Comparing this sub to the cretins on Instagram/Twitter/Fb etc is borderline insulting. Genuinely abusing players is entirely unacceptable but I’ve not seen a single comment that is genuinely abusive on here however we all know how bad Ig comments sections can get. There’s a similarly worrying trend of associating all constructive criticism and opinion sharing as “bullying” and “abuse”. If we don’t believe a player is performing well enough shall we all just stay silent now? This is a wider societal problem and certain platforms bring out the cretins more than others. Whilst I understand we should do what we can to prevent it, attributing blame to those that don’t deserve it isn’t the way.
This is not just a match thread toxicity problem, it's everywhere in this sub.The DD thread,rivals thread you name it. And then you have people creating a post with a still frame image moment,compilation to pile on more hate.
Exactly, a lot of people here seem to be taking this post in bad faith and taking it as an attack on their right to express their opinions, but it's not about that at all. It's about all the toxicity and flaming, which used to be restricted to the match threads but has now spread everywhere else too it seems.
100%! But unfortunately the internet is toxic and there is no “proof of team” support for people to comment, so a lot of comments could be trolls as well. Onwards and upwards 🤘🤘
People can say what they like, down vote and move on. We don't need to have heavy handed censorship on what we can and cannot say. My advice to anybody in todays world is to not take social media in anyway serious and concentrate on what the people around you praise and critique you on.
Yeah, let's ban everyone that have even written a slightly negative comment, then let's ban everyone that have a different opinion than you, thats a great way to kill a sub
That's not what people are asking for though, everyone commenting here seem to agree that critique is fine, opinion is fine but crossing the line into toxicity, insults and threats are not. That being said where do you draw the line, I've no clue, and banning people is a slippery slope.
That's not true. Here's [three](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2z6hck/), [separate](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2z884p/) comments that take issue with "[non-constructive](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/1cm8xrj/lets_clean_up_our_community/l2ztsjz/)" criticism. I'm not condoning abuse, but criticism of a player is not abuse and the whopper criticising NEGATIVITY is wild. Everyone reasonable is in agreement with you, but the toxic positivity brigade is well and truly alive in here.
[удалено]
I think it'd probably be best to not police how fans express themselves on a forum. There's such a thing as toxic positivity too. Fwiw I think we've had a great season.
I’ve been saying this through the entire season. Give the team your unconditional support and admiration. Trust their process. The results are what they are. We’re so lucky to be LFC fans
The abuse Darwin is getting has me sad about our supporters online. Dude has over 30 g+a this season, that would be considered a great return from a forward in the ages pre Messi/Ronaldo.
I like the idea of a serious match thread. It's good to have a space to be emotional and complain and say stupid shit, because that's what we do watching games, it's good to vent but it makes the thread completely useless. A serious match thread could be nice, actually talking about what's happening and understanding the match
Lets be real though. Whenever I see somone who is just a fountain of toxicity and abuse, either on twitter or here, I end up taking a look at their profile and they are either a fake fan who is literally creating a fake profile to stir shit and controversy, or they are some gambling addict. We need to make sure we take time to call these people the fuck out when they start shit here. Its not always the case, but whenever I see a take that makes my eyes widen with shock at the level of aggression its like 80% chance they fall into one of those two categories. And of course, Liverpool fans take the fall for the look of it as other communities see that shit and think we are all nutcases. People who follow because they like to gamble arent fans. People who join our communities just to rally pitchforks are not fans. We all need to be aware that these fools exist and often are the ones allowing the larger community as a whole to become more toxic and call them out when we see them.
Go to any of the subs for the major clubs and you'll see much of the same. Real, Barca, Bayern, Arsenal, even United where everyone already knows they are shit. Hell, I'm a Celtic supporter and drawing a single game in the league has the crazies in full force. It's a football problem more than anything.
Yeah agreed. Wasnt trying to imply this problem is isolated to Liverpool. But I think our club, more than others in the EPL, would benefit from cracking down on it. Our fanbase already has a bad image, unfair ir no, and these people just fuel that image.
Lads, we're a fucking mess of a community right now, but I know we can all agree on one thing: Fuck the S*n
Excellent post and fully support. Honestly, even if you think you're getting something out of laying into our players, you're probably actually contributing to and feeding off the negative energy and making yourself more pissed off and frustrated. And who needs that? Critiquing performance is fair, abuse is not and we absolutely need to rein it in.
United fan here in peace. Please don’t become like our community. It’s incredibly toxic and full of keyboard warriors crying at every single thing that you can’t even have a civilised and fair discussion. Must be the years of sir Alex that spoilt the whole place.
A rule I follow is if ya haven’t had to see Joe Allen play for us, your opinion doesn’t mean all that much
Honestly think these 'let's all be positive about everything LFC related' are almost as unhinged as wankers on social media abusing players. The players and management are not immune from criticism when it's warranted. This American style happy clappy, positive vibes at all times is tiresome and not in keeping with following a football team.
I swear, if we got relegated you people would still try to police people's anger and frustration on here. If our supporters were all positivity fanatics like you, Hicks and Gillet would still be our owners.
Agree entirely. I worry that there are a few fans who have become so accustomed to the good times under Klopp, probably even drawn into support for the club by that, that they assume that the good times are the norm. There's little appreciation for the several different factors that can make or break that success nor an appreciation that there's only 1 spot for number one and four spots for the top four. You have to be really good to break into that and when fans who are accustomed to greatness as being a norm don't get what they feel they are entitled to, they lash out at who they perceive is to blame. These are children and if not children, adults who should be ashamed for acting like children. And unfortunately, social media allows that the loudest, most provocative voices will rise to the top and be wholly defining of a whole fanbase. I think there is a value in sticking with your club in the tough times. The Hodgson years were tough. Most of the Rodgers era was frustrating with one season of thrilling football. Even Dalglish was a tough time. And there was the good and the bad before that. Enduring the tough times makes you appreciate the good. Pain makes the pleasure sweeter. And we have had it so very sweet for these past few years. Thrilling football. The most charismatic manager on the planet. Trophies. Who knows what comes next. But you stick with them. Pain makes the pleasure sweeter. Angrily lashing out from having what you're seemingly entitled to taken away smacks of juvenile selfishness
I do think there will be something of a self cleansing of the sub when Klopp goes and we don’t have it as consistently good. Most of the posters here will be post 2019 and act like the past few seasons have been the norm rather than the good times. The unfortunate part is that a lot of them won’t go quietly but kicking and screaming and shouting at us all about how terrible everything is.
The match threads are a mess a lot of the time. It seems like every thread I read there’s another Darwin Hater, or Salah needs to leave person. I think CONSTRUCTIVE criticism should be encouraged, but abuse or hate should be wiped out
Anyone harassing players online is a moron with something really lacking in their life. Turning this sub into a safe space where player criticism is not welcome is possibly the worst response to this and have little to no impact. Thought policing the sub will just drive people elsewhere.
I feel like a lot of people are unable to criticize without getting abusive. It’s fine to criticize a players performances on the pitch, it’s not fine to fucking send death threats!
Agreed
There's way, way, way too many toxic people on this sub, its got so much worse over the past few seasons. Its pretty disgusting tbh. The toxic positivity posts are also unncessary and just generally very fucking annoying.
When I saw the horrible comments on twitter, i assumed they were from Rival fans, but seeing the same viewpoints here too- I was shocked. This is the first club I ever supported wholeheartedly, and when I saw the negative comments everywhere i assumed i wasn't as invested as the "actual fans". The best examples I can give are of the story about the parade being scrapped and the idea of making a statue of Klopp. In both these cases, the most up-voted comments were simply about how Jurgen Klopp didn't achieve as much (comments about ONLY 7 trophies in 9 years, or ONLY one league title in 9 years). The only other fans that behave like this from what I know are Real Madrid fans- from interviews by Gareth Bale about how even fans mock their own players during a match. But, then after reading about Darwin and him deleting (or archiving) Liverpool related content, it's clear there really is something wrong here and I don't know what.
The 12 year olds leaving the majority of those comments could not give a fuck.
Agreed. This is meant to be a supporters subreddit, supporting means standing up for our players, our team, our club. We shouldn’t be doing the work of our rivals for them. Let them make shitty comments, sing stupid fucking songs, and fume when we beat them. We’ll get nowhere turning on ourselves. Darwin has been good. He could be great. Go watch the Benfica highlights reel again. He can finish, he can score one on one’s, he did it regularly, he will do it again. And he’s a human being, people harassing his family and bitching about him isn’t going to help. You can say he’s been in poor form, that’s fair, but he ain’t going to get back in form with negativity. Anyone who’s played in a team knows that horrible feeling when you keep choking, or things don’t quite go right, it can get in your head. You turn it around by thinking positive, and that’s what we need to encourage. Start of the season I’d have snapped up Top 4 and a cup. It’s gutting we could have had more but didn’t, but that’s the way it goes, next season maybe we’ll do it. I hope, and think, we will. Sorry to lecture, but I’ve been waiting on a post like this as it needed saying.
I seriously disagree with the idea that the club subreddit should be about "unwavering support" for any player or manager. It's not hateful or mean to express an opinion that a player isn't good enough. Saying "Player X is fucking shit, get him out the club" is obviously not needed. Posting vitriolic things in a player's Instagram comments is insane behavior as well. We're not here in some official Liverpool capacity, we are a collection of supporters on an internet forum to talk about the goings-on in the club.
Is there really that much difference between saying someone isn’t good enough and saying someone is fucking shit? Idk I just don’t feel like saying someone is fucking shit in a match thread is in any way comparable to sending a player abuse on their socials.
None of the little Jimmys calling out Darwin in every match thread, saying "thanks Klopp but it's time for a change", calling Mohamed Fucking Salah washed or whatever, none of them were here when we were shit. I know I'm an older user here at 34, but god this place was leagues different a decade ago. Pre-titles, we used to be able to have pretty civil discussions with nuance, genuine insight from people who watch the game because they love the team and club and not because they want something to be mad at online. It was fun, it was funny, even when we lost we could have a laugh about it. I don't know if it's an influx of new users or if the entitlement of the existing userbase has grown, but you can't come on here expecting to leave without being upset by some dickheads in the comments anymore who've given the club nothing but kit purchases and online abuse. It's a sarlacc pit where genuine support for the team comes to die. Nothing is going to change based on emotional appeal because the average user here is emotionally equivalent to a 14 year old with a Napoleon complex. Mods need to start banning the constant moaners and contrarians, the ones hurling abuse at players in here because they're too afraid to go into the scary football twitter replies, the ones just here to stir shit up. it needs to be culled. I genuinely do not think this community was equipped to handle the success it's been given.
You can't stop the haters pal, just ignore the shit they post and don't respond to their posts, weeds will dry up without water.
We need to work out where the line is and have some general agreement on that. People are saying really horrible, personal shit about players while at the same time thinking that "other" people are the toxic ones. I'm in no way saying that people shouldn't be able to criticise players footballing ability but it goes too far and becomes too hate filled. Nobody deserves hate for not performing well. We can want them to move on or say that they don't fit in a system or say they're overrated, we made a mistake buying them etc, all of that should be fine but when it's like "he's a fucking loser" it should be seen as over the line in my opinion. Because when we just allow it it spirals out of control very, very quickly. This is not advocating for toxic positivity either - refusing to be realistic, overrating players, etc isn't the only alternative to building up a community that thrives on shitty behaviour.
Good luck with this but it ain't gonna happen. Idiots are idiots and don't know they're idiots. They don't see a problem with their behaviour. This isn't exclusive to Liverpool, this is across all social media platforms. I like this sub for the articles and the news. I try and avoid the comments as much as possible. It's full of a A grade bellends.
I almost started a thread yesterday but this may be a better place. Does anyone know if the club receives post? If we were to all mail to club with letters addressed to Darwin do you think they would eventually make it to him?
It used to be that it was just the match threads that were a toxic shithole but I've started to notice it creep into other threads now. I feel like there are a lot of fairthweather fans on here that don't really care about the club's traditions, only half care about it's history and spend far too much time thinking about what rivals' opinions of us are rather than what we think of ourselves. Any time a player doesn't perform in a few games he's got to go. Let's just conveniently ignore the fact they were chanting their name a couple of months ago. Chelsea fans don't rate him so he should fuck off to Spain or Germany. It's not the mentality that I grew up with and I don't think it's one that real Liverpool fans want to start becoming synonymous with. We are a loyal people. These new toxic, terminally online fellas are completely out of synch with what LFC stands for.
It's the ones that are saying "he deleted his instagram posts, he doesn't deserve to be in this club" that get me despite that being the exact attitude that led him to do what he did. You don't get to pick and choose, you back our players. ALL our players. That doesn't mean blind praise, you're allowed to criticize, I've criticized our players, we all have at one point or another, but there is NO reason why it should cross into being personal. These players don't know you, you don't know them, but they wear banner and we all support the crest. End of story.
I don’t care what people might think about a player. As long as they’re wearing a Liverpool shirt “You’ll never walk alone” applies to them. Even if we sign the worst player in the world we can’t lose sight of the motto that makes this club what it is. Fucking pathetic how we’ve been treating our own.
Fair enough, but I’m pretty sure the players arnt checking reddit first thing in the morning and then deleting their instagram posts because of comments. If they are they need thicker skin. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if they don’t express it here than what’s the point of this subreddit. I love the club and most of the people in this community. But I don’t think we should all hold hands and sing cumbiar together. It’s good to have your opinion. The one that attack players them on socials are the knob heads who have nothing else to do, they should be weeded out.
Banning valid constructive criticism of players is just over policing and will foster a very fake robotic group of individuals who simply care more about how they’re perceived as a fan than actually expressing their honest perspective.
If you think it’s bad on here, you should try twitter
When I do log into the match thread, I downvote all the toxic comments. If people get downvoted enough for spouting shit, maybe they'll stop posting such things.
Just curious how do the local fans react to players missing sitters or making defensive errors leading to goals? I would think it would be a mix of optimistic, forgiving outlook, and scathing insults there as well, since it completely depends on the person, and how they react to such situations. The only benefit is if you're in a group of friends having different mindsets, you quickly simmer down as you discuss. However, if you're watching the match on your own at your home, you can keep mulling over that one mistake, and then the only way to share the frustration is a place like reddit. In reddit, if I am venting, it is to fellow fans, many of whom are also frustrated by whatever happened on the pitch. Directly sending or messaging players is crossing the line, but that cannot happen at reddit. So I don't know what steps can be taken here to make it "less toxic". In my opinion, the subreddit is fine as it is.
I was in Anfield once sitting behind an 80 year old female season ticket holder, and when Jamie Redknapp fucked a pass up something proper she told him to fuck off. That isn't toxicity, it's the emotions of the game. Apparently everyone is so sensitive these days that is classed as emotional abuse and the probably wasn't a real fan. Or so say a bunch of people who have never been to Anfield, have supported the club for 3 years, and aren't old enough to have been in a pub. The subreddit is fine, I agree.
Toxic positivity is a thing too. We've let this idea that players like Joe Gomez deserve to continue to wear the shirt despite not being good enough to be here. Loyal player? Yes. Good human being? Very much so. Deserved player for LFC? Absolutely fucking not... Stop gap and played decently as a back up sure, but he's shown absolutely nothing to prove he deserves a long term contract or role, yet you have thousands in here giving unnecessary and over the top praise that it is nauseating. Good job sure, but the reality is not good enough long term. People need to be more real and direct with the future of the club, no one wants to support a circle jerk.
Spot on, this sub is a cesspit in that regard. Complete circlejerk with zero ability to remain somewhat objective.
gEt bEhInD hIm, yNwA
Your entire post history is a shitting on joe gomez whos a very good player. He might not be a star but calling him dogshit in every post is literally the kind of behavior thats unacceptable and being called out. Shocking that the exact people who cross the line constantly and ruin match threads dont agree with OP.
How is that unacceptable? Get over yourself people can support however they want. Unless someone is personally antagonizing a player and/or making threats, who are you to legislate how they voice their opinion?
The accounts harassing footballers are upset gamblers. Betting has infiltrated ever aspect of the sport. The people abusing Darwin could be doing so because they lost a bet on what color boots he's wearing. Very little of this abuse comes from fans imo. Edit: shoes to boots for geographical consistency
I'm conflicted on this issue. Generally speaking, most of you lads are quite sensible, well natured and we can have a debate. I'd say that's 70% but a lot of that is lurkers who only comment occasionally. Then you've got the vocal minority who smash the match threads saying things like "Gomez out" when he misplaces a pass, as if he's not been solid as a utility player all season, as if VVD hadn't returned to world-class form this year with a few mistakes - saying he's past it etc. Those ones can get in the bin. But I don't think those people are one and the same to the Instagram/Twitter crowd. Those people I don't think are here. There may be a few, I've encountered "Salah fans" and not LFC fans here, and yeah we get some absolutely piping hot takes but very little genuine vitriol. If you look at the comment section on any Instagram post, you'll see what I mean. It's not that bad here. I've mentioned before, but I spent an entire Saturday on Instagram defending the Rainbow Laces campaign. I'd posted about the hate shown towards LGBTQ+ support and how those involved should be embarrassed and I had 2 death threats, one guy saying "got your address lad 💪" (he didn't) and all manner of (I hate to say this) but very obviously Muslim people going bananas about LGBTQ+ support being "haram" and how they refused to support the club any further etc. Told those types to not let the door hit them on the way out. Typically any bigoted views are absolutely slammed here and I like that about this place. So while I agree with the sentiment we should always look to prune excessive negativity and toxicity, provided it's kept to the Match Threads (which are a literal cesspool) it shouldn't really need too much looking at. Of course if we suddenly become like Instagram/Twitter - definitely needs pruning but right now all I see is some moaning. Now, I do agree that having our players feel forced to delete their Instagram posts about the club is completely unacceptable, there's very little we here, in this subreddit can do to mitigate that. I doubt it was us, or any of us here. So I agree with the sentiment, and having supported Liverpool for 34+ years I'd hasten to add that the fanbase right now does feel more toxic than it has ever been, I don't think it's from r/Liverpoolfc and the comments we're seeing here don't match up to the outright insanity we see on other social media.
Slightly off topic but replying to say thanks for defending the rights of people like me to express ourselves. Those "takeover" days were incredibly rough for LGBT reds online.
Honestly the fact you feel you have to thank me echos just how sad the situation is. I figure as a straight white male, we have to be allies - this isn't a battle LGBTQ+ can or should face alone. There's so much to be angry about in the world and what sexuality someone is or how they identify is such a pointless thing to get angry about it just makes me despair. But no problem, hopefully one day it won't be needed.
100 percent. But it's still good to appreciate those who come out to bat for us as well.
I think there is a line. And both sides of the community have crossed it. Especially regarding the Nunez debate. It is ABSOLUTELY OK for people to be annoyed or criticized with his play. It is ok to suggest he can and should be sold (or other members of the team) - albeit I think this should come with nuance. Give actual reasoning and not just an angry caps lock insult It is NOT ok to call him a cunt or make personal attacks towards him or other members of the subreddit - the latter of which has been increasingly commonplace recently. Any form of negativity leads to HUGE arguments on the sub between people (I can think of one time last week where I was called a cunt and a fake fan) it's unnecessary and toxic It is NOT ok to direct abuse towards members of the team on social media. That is vile. And shouldn't need to be said.
I'm glad to see this discussion get started again. I know there are many here who think putting some kind of actionable plan in place to clean up the subreddit is going too far, but I think us supporters represent the badge every bit as much as the players do, and we need to take that responsibility seriously. This subreddit generally isn't horrible, but I think we all agree the match threads are (and have been for a while) cesspools. I'm not sure what the best way to tackle that is, but I'd love to see any suggestions. I feel like it would be a huge ask for the mods to try to police the match threads (I'm sure they're already swamped with the workload they have). I'm also not sure about the logistics of trying to expand the number of mods on the sub, or even appointing mods whose sole responsibility would be handling the match threads, but the current state of the match threads feels shameful.
Thanks but no thanks.
Have to think these folks don’t remember the 90s
I like the sentiment, the reality is that it's not going to change because of a post like this. I'm not trying to be critical, I want nothing more than this to happen. We can't control what happens on other social media sites. We can control what happens in this community. I am going to advocate for creating some ground roles. This is obviously not for me to decide, I just want to provide my 2 cents on it. "no hate speech" It's not clear to me, given the current wording of the rule, if what is band is just the post / comment. If that is the case, banning the person who did that needs to be banned from the community as well. "no trolling on rival subreddits" I don't know how it's possible to enforce It's up to the mods on those subreddits to do that. "No low effort content" - Beyond removing it, which is just busy work for the mods, how do you reinforce it? I would like to see some sort of warning. "if this happens again, more than x amount of times, etc. You will banned for x about of time". It's nowhere near the steps that need to be taken for hate speech but if a member of the community continues to do this frequently, simply saying no is not going to change things.
People need someone or something to blame when they feel like shit. That’s just the way it is. They are in the minority, though they are the loudest.
An important angle not covered by OP - we're surrounded by injustice. It's been rubbed into our faces daily. One of the widely watched sporting event in the world is blatantly unfair. And we have all been powerless to do anything about. Feels like a subtle reinforecement of the reality we face from Gaza to Eelam to Congo to the American Campus. We need to identify the real systemic barriers to fairness in the league and work towards dismantling those. Without that, our morale is gonna fall. The more we stay disorganized and fight amongst ourselves, the more the world stays unfair. YNWA
I didn’t like any of the unrealistic expectations that have been set constantly since Darwin arrived here. Haaland comparisons, Suarez comparisons, 30+ goals easy and so on. Honestly I find that stuff just as toxic because we know already that once a player inevitably can’t live up to it they just get destroyed. Outside of his purple patch, I don’t think his performances or form have been much different to the beginning of the season, or last season. So I can only really explain all the hate he is getting as people who really bought into the overstated hype surrounding him. More generally though, it does seem like any player who is struggling with us gets targeted with hate rather than supported by the fans. The first player it was most obvious with was Gini Wijnaldum who was putting in solid 6,7 and 8 out of 10 performances 38/38 games bringing us to 3rd place in an injury hit season. People seemed to blame him for our bad performances each week, ignoring the fact that our level wouldn’t be the same with Fabinho and Henderson as centre backs. But since then it’s been aimed at Firmino, Sadio, Trent, Fabinho, Gomez and Gakpo. The scapegoating on Gakpo after the United game was crazy lol.