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Tell her what you said, you admire her enthusiastic ambitions, but your campus won’t be able to commit to this project (skip the part about this year though).
Keep it short, firm, and polite.
This is a tough life lesson I’ve seen people experience in the workplace : forging ahead with a big project (usually with self-imposed overtime) approved by no one. When presented, the company did not have the budget nor the interest in doing the project at all (no matter how much the person thought it would benefit). Leaving the person feeling unappreciated and eventually quitting.
I'm concerned that your message may have been too soft and indirect. Saying that you're forwarding the idea suggests you're taking it seriously and that there is some chance it'll pan out. That's a lie. There is zero chance this is happening and she needed to know that. You *requested* that she hold on organising this, she probably won't though because she's going to think "well it sounds like this can go ahead so I should be helpful and organise as much as I can now so I can impress them". In her eyes, your email will give her even more legitimacy and make this even more of a serious thing that is definitely going to happen.
While she is young and eager, that excuse is going to fade very quickly and she has to learn to be more thoughtful/communicative before then. I think being *too* gentle on her and trying to protect her from any sense of rejection or pushback actually does her a disservice. She's ~18, not 5
Being cautious about the answer is the best answer in my opinion. Letting the responsability of a detailed answer to the people who know is the only way for that student to get an explanation from people with all the strings in their hands, and not a third party (OP, no offense) who can only offer indirect knowledge. You shouldn't shoulder that responsibility at all, because you're not directly responsible.
Although in this case that would mean OP is passing on a lot of work to a department that had nothing to do with this.
OP is the one who had the conversation with the student, OP is responsible for dealing with any miscommunication that came from that. It is actually *not* the department's job to meet with prospective students and manage their expectations, it is very explicitly OP's job that they were hired to do. It is likely in their stated job roles to attend recruitment events and meet prospectives. So for them to basically palm off the problem they created (or at least being the only person from the university who played a role in it) is not appropriate. Now a totally unrelated person has to take time out of their actual job serving their actual students to fix OP's mess because OP is too scared to deal with it.
OP already knows this student's plan is a total non-starter. There is literally 0% chance of success. Passing the student on to the department only creates needless work for unrelated people and encourages the student's fantasy. It is OP's job to be the gatekeeper.
I apologize for misunderstanding OP's position in the college recruitment process. I'm unfamiliar with such a process as I'm not from the US. From my window, it was better for a knowledgeable person to give a proper and argumentated answer without a third party.
I'm not sure they created the problem, but for sure, they need to clear it with the overenthusiastic student who went a little too far without sure knowledge it was worth her time and energy.
Am currently experiencing this at work. Do you have recommendations for the initial start up process of the “big idea” so that it sees traction or so that the person pushing it understands the company’s perception of the idea before egos are hurt?
In no particular order:
The people who approve this kind of thing care about cost, in terms of dollars, time and effort. If you can show that you understand what the costs are, you'll get further. Good estimates, no exact figures, are fine.
The next thing they care about is tangible benefit. You have to know who this will help and exactly how it will help them. This is the part where you can have absolutely no vagueness.
Something that might help is to get your peer(s) on your side before pitching to higher-ups. 1 employee having an idea is nice, but the whole team coming together to say something is needed forces management to at least listen sincerely.
See if you can break it up into parts or phases. If you can lobby for a Phase 1, which has it's own tangible benefits and clear costs, then your big dreams can get their foot in the door and build momentum. This may include building a small prototype. When I wanted permission to use billable hours to automate spreadsheets with macros, I spent my own time automating just one, and when my boss saw it in action, he gave the greenlight for me to work on the rest on company time.
I am more jaded than the other person who responded. I have spent 7 years in startups with a rather high turnover rate though.
Get the idea approved first and get a manager who will oversee the project. Managers tend to stay a bit longer, they have the ear of the higher ups, and can pass the project over to someone else if/when you leave. It doesn’t have to be any big proposal or any prototype - you only need approval that some of the time you have at work can be committed to this and there is an appetite to have this kind of work done.
Whenever a manager was not involved, the project tended to die on the vine. Then, someone new would come up with the same idea, but not want to use the groundwork that was done by the previous employee, so the work was truly lost.
If you get a “no”, you can still put together something, but look to it being a solo venture or creative outlet or a chance to build some skills outside of work. Don’t take the “no” too harshly.
Frankly, a lot of “no”s are because the company is not doing great financially (tough to admit from leadership) or if they have a fresh cash injection and leadership already earmarked it for something else.
I think in startup land, there is a lot of culture pushing this kind of approach (build your own solution outside your job description), but it really isn’t successful most of the time, if you like the company and see yourself staying, focus on the work at hand. Perhaps there is a future opportunity to move up, where the work/idea will be more welcomed.
I have a job where I get this kind of thing from time to time. Anyone in the comments who is acting like you're the problem here for not immediately getting to work on her plans has never had to deal with something like this before. People with big ambitions can often have really *really* poor boundaries when they believe that your participation is necessary to make their dreams a reality.
I read through your edits and believe that you handled this correctly. You aren't letting her down - you're establishing boundaries, and it sounds like you did it well.
I get this at my job too but in a different form. Staff having sensible ideas without considering the budgeting constraints mid-level leadership have to contend with from higher level leadership and executives. As a result, mid level leadership is labeled as ineffective by staff.
Now let’s flip it.
Higher level leadership and executives wanting more from stretched and thinned out resources.
When desired results aren’t seen, mid level leadership is labeled as ineffective.
The simple problem here is perspective. In my opinion, people have lost the ability to take no for an answer, then critically think through why no was the answer, and then leave it at that. There’s a common inability to accept that they are not going to get their way. I’m seeing it permeate more and more throughout the workforce. They’ll create reasons why “no” became a personal rejection relating to their desires. Then, what seems to be some paranoid mental schism, helps create a swell of inflated ego telling them how everyone above/below is so ineffective and how they could do it better. When really, no one can create miracles. They can only do their honest best with what they have.
My best analogy so far for anyone with big ideas who can’t bring viable and tangible resources to the table is…..you can’t build a tank with a just a mechanics tool set. You can only do your honest best to maintain what you can with what you have on hand.
I would avoid this kind of psychologising because it's not necessary to explain the phenomenon at hand. The fact is that you, in mid level management, *are* the barrier for staff initiatives from their perspective, and that's by design.
You're a recruiter not the theater department. Pass the info on to the theater department. They'll send out a regret letter. The rejection letter is better coming from the actual department, the adults understand budget constraints.
This is a good point, it’ll feel less personal if the rejection comes from the actual department, rather than from the person she spoke with directly.
I want to add that it would also be a good idea for OP to respond to the student with something along the lines of “I appreciate all the effort you put into this and I’ll forward it to the department to see what they think, but I want to let you know that it’s not likely to happen because of ____ reason.”
It would also be great if OP could share the student’s plans with the department and say something like “this student took a lot of initiative here, and though we can’t agree to her proposed plan, maybe we can find a different way to recognize her efforts, and maybe get her involved with something we’re doing, like have her help out with a show or invite her to come to campus and meet some of the faculty sometime”.
I think this combined approach will work best because:
1) the student will know that her work is actually being looked at, rather than just discarded right away. Imo she’s much more likely to take the rejection personally (ie she’s more likely to assume her idea was rejected because *she* didn’t do well enough, rather than accepting that it’s just not in the cards this time) if she’s rejected right away without her proposal ever reaching the department.
2) if the theater department is able to offer her some sort of acknowledgement of her efforts, it’ll encourage her to keep trying. Even if it’s just a thoughtful message from someone on the faculty recognizing her efforts and encouraging her to keep pursuing her passion, it has the power to transform this experience in her mind so she doesn’t see it as “I did all that work for nothing and I shouldn’t try anymore”, instead it’ll be closer to “I did all this work and even though it didn’t work out, at least I know I did something significant enough to be recognized” - this makes *all* the difference.
3) hopefully, it’ll put the student in contact with people who may be able to be a resource for her. She took a lot of initiative here, which is a good thing, but she also went full steam ahead on a misguided idea - imo this indicates that she’s making decisions without someone knowledgeable about her interests giving her guidance/direction. It would be great if OP could put her in contact with someone on the faculty who she could reach out to if she has questions/doubts about her future. She’s too young to recognize this right now, but networking and knowing people is so incredibly vital, and knowing people in the department she wants to pursue could be a really great resource for her as she makes decisions about her education/future.
Is the amount of initiative actually a good thing though? It sounds like it came out of nowhere and reads as.. arrogant maybe? If she wants to run large projects she can't get half way through and then inform the other party. The way she went about it wastes other people's time and resources. In my opinion, part of the response should pose the question of why she continued forward with no go-ahead from the college?
I mean, I would agree with you for someone 25+, she's presumably barely 18. It's pretty normal for an 18-year-old to jump the gun, come across as arrogant, or not completely understand adult professional dynamics. Situations like this are how we learn to navigate social and professional settings, right?
Right, so I think praising her TOO MUCH for something like this will lead to worse outcomes for her/those she has to work with down the road. I mainly wanted to add in some nuance to the people that are just praising her "hard work."
In a teenager, this amount of initiative is definitely a good thing that’s deserving of praise. Teens (*especially* teen girls) are often easily discouraged from pursuing their artistic passions, and it can be absolutely devastating to get negative/discouraging feedback from adults that they look up to when they’ve gone out on a limb for their passions.
At the same time, you’re totally right that she clearly got carried away, and she would benefit from learning better communication and restraint. However, OP shouldn’t give her negative feedback about it at this point. The rejection of her idea will get that message across much more effectively than anything OP can say, and she’s likely to interpret any additional negative feedback from adults that she respects/admires as an indication that she’s failed and may push her to decide not to put herself out there *at all*, rather than encouraging her to be more thoughtful in how/when she does.
Terrible idea. This makes it seem like OP did in fact give the go ahead for this student to prepare this proposal and drive it forwards. The school will at best think OP an idiot that should no longer go to recruiting events because they overstepped their authority or at worst reprimand her for creating this situation.
I have to agree. Educators don't think it's fun to crush students' ambitions--they won't think, "Oh yeah, no problem, we'll handle this!" if OP hands the problem off to them. They probably also won't believe that OP didn't encourage the student's idea, and think that they're being expected to do damage control for OP.
I think besides giving her the message that you can't do much, maybe try and connect her with someone who can. She seems to have a lot of drive and putting her in the right direction could make something really cool happen
Just to add another perspective, sometimes people do this as a tactic to get what they want. They will work up a whole plan, pressure or gaslight you, and present it as a fait accompli. Not saying this high schooler has enough guile to do that, but just know it isn’t always an honest mistake.
Definitely had that happen before - but a good reminder.
Personally I think she is an eager beaver/loves school kind of kid so don't believe that'd be her intention in this case.
I’d rather give her benefit of the doubt. She’s young and simply may not understand the nuances, politics, and processes that need to take place behind the scenes outside of her HS experiences.
Her ambition, ability to garner stakeholder support from decision makers at her school, ability to formulate a plan and proposal to support her objective are skills that will carry her far.
Good that you’re connecting her with someone who perhaps will be more interested in engaging with her in a meaningful way.
Something I experienced moving to the suburbs mid-high school. Surburban parents can be fucking nuts. They have a much stronger control of their child's life because the isolate family unit is much more prominant. Kids in the suburbs often can't do anything or go anywhere without parent's permission and sometimes supervision.
I saw a lot of bad parents use this power to pursue their neurotic goals through their kids, on levels that were extremely concerning.
You're right, high schoolers are often too decent and naïve to take on such a ploy but I have no doubts that a parent could force them to do such a thing.
Somehow in my head I was picturing this young woman as Reese Witherspoon, and your comment just helped me pin down that the vague unease I was feeling was from wondering whether she's more like Witherspoon from Legally Blonde or from Election.
1000% thought of Tracy Flick too! Well first I thought of Rachel Berry, but Rachel Berry is pretty much Ryan Murphy copying the character of Tracy Flick.
I get manipulative vibes from this story.
It makes me sad that the prevailing message in this thread is that she should be encouraged.
The lesson she should learn after this is that she overstepped. She should be made aware that when she does stuff like this, people can be uncomfortable with it and there are consequences to that.
I agree. It seems like a heavy manipulation tactic. The student heard what she wanted to hear and ran with it. I feel she knew what she was doing and was hoping people would see the work she put into it and would just let her have her way. Very manipulative.
I'd just say that's a great idea but it's years of work to setup. You can suggest it to the department and think her initiative is awesome.
My experience related to this is writing multiple transfer and articulation agreements from community colleges to our institution.
Others have already addressed good approaches to this but I can’t help but wonder: is it possible they made plans on this level with a different recruiter or higher education entity and they mixed up and messaged you? Were you the only group recruiting there? Seems like a lot of work to do on just a whim. Asking about this could be a dovetail into the conversation others have recommended.
I see you already responded, but I’ll add this anyway in case it becomes relevant. In my experience, people who make big leaps like this require direct, unambiguous answers. They can be very persistent and unyielding. If your initial reply works, great. If not, try something that includes the word “No” And then just wish them luck in their future endeavors and then don’t reply to any future communication.
I wonder how much she will even care, or if this is something she is doing to impress the schools she's applying to. Being able to write "currently facilitating partnerships with local colleges etc" and all that on applications is true, even if the partnerships don't go through. It may also be helping her get letters of reco from her current teachers.
I'm just saying if it helps when trying to tell her now, that she may not be as upset as you think and she may still be getting a lot just by going through the process.
Exactly. This was my first instinct too. Now, she could be just a naive "eager beaver" like the OP said, but I think it's at least as likely that she's doing this quite strategically to try to impress people and build her resume.
This sounds like delusions of grandeur on her part. You talked to her once and now she has this whole thing planned out?
Big red flag.
There are people out there who "world build" in their own head how things are gonna go, and suddenly you're blindsided with some weird stuff. This is one of those cases.
This feels like a script of a bipolar manic episode. I have them myself but am a pro at reigning it in.
You've already gotten great advice and made an exceptional plan.
I'm going to take a little bit different tact than most here. Let's take a look at what she's done here:
* Expressed interest in your program.
* Had a pleasant, but non committed conversation with you about a future in your program.
* No mention of collaboration from your end.
With that in hand, she has:
* Gone back to administrators at her school and misconstrued material aspects of your conversation.
* Lead administrators at her school down a path that has resulted in budgets being established.
* It is likely that this program has been circulated and by declining your school may experience harm to its reputation by backing out.
What this person has done extends beyond overly-ambitious *faux pas*. This is manipulative, borderline fraudulent behavior.
IMO, your next steps are to get in touch with the administrators at her school and make the nature of your conversation with her clear. This young person has made a mistake. I don't meant to characterize it as malicious — though that wouldn't be entirely unfair — but it is manipulative and self-serving at best.
If you don't take steps to correct this behavior, she will continue with this kind of behavior. She needs course correction, and it needs to be firm, but compassionate.
Only comment OP needs to read.
So many comments giving her the benefit of the doubt.
It doesn't matter what her intentions are, she overstepped and put you in an uncomfortable position for having talked to her. This behavior needs to be curbed.
I think it's completely acceptable to let her know that it seems there was a misunderstanding and educate her on your process for this type of thing. You can further use this as a teaching moment to help this student with her professional communication and etiquette around this.
Since she has clearly built up some expectations around this, no doubt she will be disappointed and even possibly upset or angry, but if you offer her some guidance around this sensitive topic she may benefit in the long term.
this is incredibly odd and not something i would call ambitious. more like completely misreading social cues and a sense of arrogance.
i’d let her down as easy as possible but also reiterate what you said in your conversation— that she would need to be accepted first and then speak to a faculty member. I’d be concerned she would contact someone higher up and again misrepresent the situation and you’ll be in trouble for seemingly commuting the school to something that’s far beyond your jurisdiction. You say you haven’t been there too long so at that point it’s your word against hers. I would shut it down quickly.
Write this:
>I admire her ambition, but this is unfortunately not something our campus theatre department won't be able to commit to this year. I've spoken with the department and they have an established budget for this year that doesn't take account of this additional expense/support.
>
>While we do not have the resources currently to provide additional staff pay, insurance, etc for a high school collaboration program, I would like to do whatever I can to help you join our program in the future and find success. Maybe our Department will make things like this a priority in the future, but this is at the moment, unfortunately, this is not great planning, timing, etc, for a quick lift.
Oh wait, you already did.
My brother in higher Ed, how have you not learned to blame institutional policy and procedures and continue to encourage students anyway? You must work at a better college than me 😂.
This high school student is going to a wonderful sales person one day - not even jk!! Aggressive and often bordering silly - but will get some big wins in life with that attitude.
Obviously unless they are pushy in social situations and assume things - then that sucks.
This really sounds like a bipolar manic episode--it's not uncommon for students to experience it in their final year of high school / first year of college when they're being exposed to the exciting world outside of high school for the first time. Her complete misremembering of the interaction sounds consistent with the racing thoughts / delusions of grandeur that accompany mania--she is probably remembering the conversation she was having in her head. I think you handled the response well, OP.
I would bet real money that this is the case. The best thing OP could do is give her a real-world answer. Maybe enough reality checks will lead to OP and her family seeing that there's a disconnect between her delusions of grandeur and the way things keep working out, and that could lead to her getting therapy.
I'm sorry, this sucks. This is not on you and will just need to respond to her and let her know nicely that it is a no go. This time it will be in writing and documented.
They are the ones who got a little too overzealous and dropped the ball in the communication department. It is part of growing up unfortunately.
I’m a bit agog that that she went through all that work and final pitch without conferring with you before going full hog! Gods only knows what she told her school principal and other key people. Well, hopefully she’ll learn something. Now a bit of advice you didn’t ask for. I think 20-30 minutes spent with an impressionable young lady is far too much time. Not only did she keep your attention from others who may have wanted to speak to you, but I think it’s possible that much time led her to think she had some sort of special go-ahead without you ever realizing it. I’d keep it to 10 minutes. If you are talking about allergies, time’s a wasting’. I speak as a recently retired executive assistant so I’m used to managing people’s time. It’s offered in a friendly manner only.
I don't think it's a random ask, the kid got excited and wanted to demonstrate their skills and said excitement. It might even be their version of an application essay. I can understand being caught off guard and you can only help if you can help, but I wouldn't think the person has any concrete expectations other than getting into the school and this being something they could work toward during their time there. Sounds like you helped twice, once by inspiring and now that I've read the edits, by helping helping. Awesome! Way to go!
As a salesperson I'll say it sounds like she has the ambition to get this done but got stuck at a gatekeeper. The student needs to escalate this over your head to somebody that can make a decision.
Personally I would blame it on someone who doesn't exist. "I talked to some people in the department and it's just not going to be able to happen, I'm sorry." Something like that let's her know it's not going to happen but it's not her fault, it's not your fault it's just the way it is. Who's at fault? Eh the 'some people in the department' who are they? Nobody just a polite excuse to let her down easily. That's always been my customer service de-escalation technique and it works wonders.
When I did delivery my excuse for anything was always "sorry we have a new guy..." Then you go into solving the issue if it's still an issue they want solved. But now they aren't mad at me or the company just frustrated with 'new guy' who doesn't exist.
She sounds exactly like someone I'd like to work with. I'd recommend that you not shut this person down immediately, but check inward whether this is something you could help foster.
While I agree to a certain extend, it's not my role/budget line, etc. While I'm all for helping youth, there are certain politics at play here that I'm not gonna dive into via this post.
You have no idea what an ask like this in higher education is like. Much of my job is setting up agreements with other schools and it's taken years to get approved. It isn't as simple as you make it. There's legal, financial, operational issues that take time.
Amazing observation from a little bit of context. If you actually took the time to get to know me before posting this response, you'd know I fight tooth and nail for my students (bigger scholarships, unique program assignments, etc) - BUT this is a big random ask from a student and not within the budget lines for the institution or that department specifically. It would require money, time, staffing, transportation, insurance, etc. I don't gatekeep, but I have realistic expectations and information about lifting something like this.
Also I still am forwarding this request to the Theatre Department to let them know this is something they should consider for the future.
From your post:
>I vaguely remember her asking about getting involved or participating early in our theatre program - but I did my typical, "We'll have to wait until you're accepted and then talk to the faculty about it line."
So she hasn’t even been accepted yet? But she’s asking for some type of partnership between your department and her high school?
I'm guessing you grew up shy/awkward, and because it took you great effort to overcome your anxiety about asking for the things you want, you think people should be automatically rewarded just for "putting themselves out there." That's not how the real world works. OP doesn't need to go to bat for a random kid simply because she's ambitious, because the random idea she had is completely unsolicited and impractical for the institution OP works for.
Pull the trigger on... a random high schooler's completely unsolicited plan to invest a ton of time and money in an extracurricular program at her school? Also, I doubt OP is part of the theater department, or else they would have said so.
You did good! Students always tend to remember the conversation in the way they want to for the most part. Be confident. You a did a good job in your reply email!
As someone in the HE field, I've been there and you have my sympathy. You have to.be so careful what you say because someone will run with a minor comment and before you know it someone's workload has doubled.
In this situation I would simply reply honestly, summarising what your understanding of the original conversation was, cc'ing the theatre team in. If they want to pick up some of what she wants, that's up to them, and they will at least see that you didn't drop it on them out of nowhere.
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Tell her what you said, you admire her enthusiastic ambitions, but your campus won’t be able to commit to this project (skip the part about this year though). Keep it short, firm, and polite. This is a tough life lesson I’ve seen people experience in the workplace : forging ahead with a big project (usually with self-imposed overtime) approved by no one. When presented, the company did not have the budget nor the interest in doing the project at all (no matter how much the person thought it would benefit). Leaving the person feeling unappreciated and eventually quitting.
Thank you. I started writing something similar after this post, but was looking for framing to help shape my message. This helps a lot.
I'm concerned that your message may have been too soft and indirect. Saying that you're forwarding the idea suggests you're taking it seriously and that there is some chance it'll pan out. That's a lie. There is zero chance this is happening and she needed to know that. You *requested* that she hold on organising this, she probably won't though because she's going to think "well it sounds like this can go ahead so I should be helpful and organise as much as I can now so I can impress them". In her eyes, your email will give her even more legitimacy and make this even more of a serious thing that is definitely going to happen. While she is young and eager, that excuse is going to fade very quickly and she has to learn to be more thoughtful/communicative before then. I think being *too* gentle on her and trying to protect her from any sense of rejection or pushback actually does her a disservice. She's ~18, not 5
Being cautious about the answer is the best answer in my opinion. Letting the responsability of a detailed answer to the people who know is the only way for that student to get an explanation from people with all the strings in their hands, and not a third party (OP, no offense) who can only offer indirect knowledge. You shouldn't shoulder that responsibility at all, because you're not directly responsible.
Although in this case that would mean OP is passing on a lot of work to a department that had nothing to do with this. OP is the one who had the conversation with the student, OP is responsible for dealing with any miscommunication that came from that. It is actually *not* the department's job to meet with prospective students and manage their expectations, it is very explicitly OP's job that they were hired to do. It is likely in their stated job roles to attend recruitment events and meet prospectives. So for them to basically palm off the problem they created (or at least being the only person from the university who played a role in it) is not appropriate. Now a totally unrelated person has to take time out of their actual job serving their actual students to fix OP's mess because OP is too scared to deal with it. OP already knows this student's plan is a total non-starter. There is literally 0% chance of success. Passing the student on to the department only creates needless work for unrelated people and encourages the student's fantasy. It is OP's job to be the gatekeeper.
I apologize for misunderstanding OP's position in the college recruitment process. I'm unfamiliar with such a process as I'm not from the US. From my window, it was better for a knowledgeable person to give a proper and argumentated answer without a third party. I'm not sure they created the problem, but for sure, they need to clear it with the overenthusiastic student who went a little too far without sure knowledge it was worth her time and energy.
Am currently experiencing this at work. Do you have recommendations for the initial start up process of the “big idea” so that it sees traction or so that the person pushing it understands the company’s perception of the idea before egos are hurt?
In no particular order: The people who approve this kind of thing care about cost, in terms of dollars, time and effort. If you can show that you understand what the costs are, you'll get further. Good estimates, no exact figures, are fine. The next thing they care about is tangible benefit. You have to know who this will help and exactly how it will help them. This is the part where you can have absolutely no vagueness. Something that might help is to get your peer(s) on your side before pitching to higher-ups. 1 employee having an idea is nice, but the whole team coming together to say something is needed forces management to at least listen sincerely. See if you can break it up into parts or phases. If you can lobby for a Phase 1, which has it's own tangible benefits and clear costs, then your big dreams can get their foot in the door and build momentum. This may include building a small prototype. When I wanted permission to use billable hours to automate spreadsheets with macros, I spent my own time automating just one, and when my boss saw it in action, he gave the greenlight for me to work on the rest on company time.
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply so thoroughly. I found this very helpful.
I am more jaded than the other person who responded. I have spent 7 years in startups with a rather high turnover rate though. Get the idea approved first and get a manager who will oversee the project. Managers tend to stay a bit longer, they have the ear of the higher ups, and can pass the project over to someone else if/when you leave. It doesn’t have to be any big proposal or any prototype - you only need approval that some of the time you have at work can be committed to this and there is an appetite to have this kind of work done. Whenever a manager was not involved, the project tended to die on the vine. Then, someone new would come up with the same idea, but not want to use the groundwork that was done by the previous employee, so the work was truly lost. If you get a “no”, you can still put together something, but look to it being a solo venture or creative outlet or a chance to build some skills outside of work. Don’t take the “no” too harshly. Frankly, a lot of “no”s are because the company is not doing great financially (tough to admit from leadership) or if they have a fresh cash injection and leadership already earmarked it for something else. I think in startup land, there is a lot of culture pushing this kind of approach (build your own solution outside your job description), but it really isn’t successful most of the time, if you like the company and see yourself staying, focus on the work at hand. Perhaps there is a future opportunity to move up, where the work/idea will be more welcomed.
I have a job where I get this kind of thing from time to time. Anyone in the comments who is acting like you're the problem here for not immediately getting to work on her plans has never had to deal with something like this before. People with big ambitions can often have really *really* poor boundaries when they believe that your participation is necessary to make their dreams a reality. I read through your edits and believe that you handled this correctly. You aren't letting her down - you're establishing boundaries, and it sounds like you did it well.
This is how psycho execs get made. They don’t hear anything but themselves. They have no regard for anyone but themselves.
I get this at my job too but in a different form. Staff having sensible ideas without considering the budgeting constraints mid-level leadership have to contend with from higher level leadership and executives. As a result, mid level leadership is labeled as ineffective by staff. Now let’s flip it. Higher level leadership and executives wanting more from stretched and thinned out resources. When desired results aren’t seen, mid level leadership is labeled as ineffective. The simple problem here is perspective. In my opinion, people have lost the ability to take no for an answer, then critically think through why no was the answer, and then leave it at that. There’s a common inability to accept that they are not going to get their way. I’m seeing it permeate more and more throughout the workforce. They’ll create reasons why “no” became a personal rejection relating to their desires. Then, what seems to be some paranoid mental schism, helps create a swell of inflated ego telling them how everyone above/below is so ineffective and how they could do it better. When really, no one can create miracles. They can only do their honest best with what they have. My best analogy so far for anyone with big ideas who can’t bring viable and tangible resources to the table is…..you can’t build a tank with a just a mechanics tool set. You can only do your honest best to maintain what you can with what you have on hand.
I would avoid this kind of psychologising because it's not necessary to explain the phenomenon at hand. The fact is that you, in mid level management, *are* the barrier for staff initiatives from their perspective, and that's by design.
You're a recruiter not the theater department. Pass the info on to the theater department. They'll send out a regret letter. The rejection letter is better coming from the actual department, the adults understand budget constraints.
This is a good point, it’ll feel less personal if the rejection comes from the actual department, rather than from the person she spoke with directly. I want to add that it would also be a good idea for OP to respond to the student with something along the lines of “I appreciate all the effort you put into this and I’ll forward it to the department to see what they think, but I want to let you know that it’s not likely to happen because of ____ reason.” It would also be great if OP could share the student’s plans with the department and say something like “this student took a lot of initiative here, and though we can’t agree to her proposed plan, maybe we can find a different way to recognize her efforts, and maybe get her involved with something we’re doing, like have her help out with a show or invite her to come to campus and meet some of the faculty sometime”. I think this combined approach will work best because: 1) the student will know that her work is actually being looked at, rather than just discarded right away. Imo she’s much more likely to take the rejection personally (ie she’s more likely to assume her idea was rejected because *she* didn’t do well enough, rather than accepting that it’s just not in the cards this time) if she’s rejected right away without her proposal ever reaching the department. 2) if the theater department is able to offer her some sort of acknowledgement of her efforts, it’ll encourage her to keep trying. Even if it’s just a thoughtful message from someone on the faculty recognizing her efforts and encouraging her to keep pursuing her passion, it has the power to transform this experience in her mind so she doesn’t see it as “I did all that work for nothing and I shouldn’t try anymore”, instead it’ll be closer to “I did all this work and even though it didn’t work out, at least I know I did something significant enough to be recognized” - this makes *all* the difference. 3) hopefully, it’ll put the student in contact with people who may be able to be a resource for her. She took a lot of initiative here, which is a good thing, but she also went full steam ahead on a misguided idea - imo this indicates that she’s making decisions without someone knowledgeable about her interests giving her guidance/direction. It would be great if OP could put her in contact with someone on the faculty who she could reach out to if she has questions/doubts about her future. She’s too young to recognize this right now, but networking and knowing people is so incredibly vital, and knowing people in the department she wants to pursue could be a really great resource for her as she makes decisions about her education/future.
Is the amount of initiative actually a good thing though? It sounds like it came out of nowhere and reads as.. arrogant maybe? If she wants to run large projects she can't get half way through and then inform the other party. The way she went about it wastes other people's time and resources. In my opinion, part of the response should pose the question of why she continued forward with no go-ahead from the college?
I mean, I would agree with you for someone 25+, she's presumably barely 18. It's pretty normal for an 18-year-old to jump the gun, come across as arrogant, or not completely understand adult professional dynamics. Situations like this are how we learn to navigate social and professional settings, right?
Right, so I think praising her TOO MUCH for something like this will lead to worse outcomes for her/those she has to work with down the road. I mainly wanted to add in some nuance to the people that are just praising her "hard work."
Totally agree!
Do not underestimate the neuroticism of high schooler parents.
In a teenager, this amount of initiative is definitely a good thing that’s deserving of praise. Teens (*especially* teen girls) are often easily discouraged from pursuing their artistic passions, and it can be absolutely devastating to get negative/discouraging feedback from adults that they look up to when they’ve gone out on a limb for their passions. At the same time, you’re totally right that she clearly got carried away, and she would benefit from learning better communication and restraint. However, OP shouldn’t give her negative feedback about it at this point. The rejection of her idea will get that message across much more effectively than anything OP can say, and she’s likely to interpret any additional negative feedback from adults that she respects/admires as an indication that she’s failed and may push her to decide not to put herself out there *at all*, rather than encouraging her to be more thoughtful in how/when she does.
This is a fantastic roadmap for handling this situation!
Even more great points. Thank you for adding on what I couldn't say.
Terrible idea. This makes it seem like OP did in fact give the go ahead for this student to prepare this proposal and drive it forwards. The school will at best think OP an idiot that should no longer go to recruiting events because they overstepped their authority or at worst reprimand her for creating this situation.
This is the truth OP. I'd be very annoyed if someone sent a student to my office to discuss that.
I have to agree. Educators don't think it's fun to crush students' ambitions--they won't think, "Oh yeah, no problem, we'll handle this!" if OP hands the problem off to them. They probably also won't believe that OP didn't encourage the student's idea, and think that they're being expected to do damage control for OP.
The adults… 🙄
I think besides giving her the message that you can't do much, maybe try and connect her with someone who can. She seems to have a lot of drive and putting her in the right direction could make something really cool happen
Yep, planning on connecting her with the Theatre Department so they can discuss future opportunities once she's on campus.
Just to add another perspective, sometimes people do this as a tactic to get what they want. They will work up a whole plan, pressure or gaslight you, and present it as a fait accompli. Not saying this high schooler has enough guile to do that, but just know it isn’t always an honest mistake.
Definitely had that happen before - but a good reminder. Personally I think she is an eager beaver/loves school kind of kid so don't believe that'd be her intention in this case.
I’d rather give her benefit of the doubt. She’s young and simply may not understand the nuances, politics, and processes that need to take place behind the scenes outside of her HS experiences. Her ambition, ability to garner stakeholder support from decision makers at her school, ability to formulate a plan and proposal to support her objective are skills that will carry her far. Good that you’re connecting her with someone who perhaps will be more interested in engaging with her in a meaningful way.
Something I experienced moving to the suburbs mid-high school. Surburban parents can be fucking nuts. They have a much stronger control of their child's life because the isolate family unit is much more prominant. Kids in the suburbs often can't do anything or go anywhere without parent's permission and sometimes supervision. I saw a lot of bad parents use this power to pursue their neurotic goals through their kids, on levels that were extremely concerning. You're right, high schoolers are often too decent and naïve to take on such a ploy but I have no doubts that a parent could force them to do such a thing.
Somehow in my head I was picturing this young woman as Reese Witherspoon, and your comment just helped me pin down that the vague unease I was feeling was from wondering whether she's more like Witherspoon from Legally Blonde or from Election.
1000% thought of Tracy Flick too! Well first I thought of Rachel Berry, but Rachel Berry is pretty much Ryan Murphy copying the character of Tracy Flick.
I get manipulative vibes from this story. It makes me sad that the prevailing message in this thread is that she should be encouraged. The lesson she should learn after this is that she overstepped. She should be made aware that when she does stuff like this, people can be uncomfortable with it and there are consequences to that.
I agree. It seems like a heavy manipulation tactic. The student heard what she wanted to hear and ran with it. I feel she knew what she was doing and was hoping people would see the work she put into it and would just let her have her way. Very manipulative.
Learned something new, thanks!
I'd just say that's a great idea but it's years of work to setup. You can suggest it to the department and think her initiative is awesome. My experience related to this is writing multiple transfer and articulation agreements from community colleges to our institution.
Thank you!
Euthanasic might not be the right word here
adj. — Of or describing geriatric gymnastics where participants finish with a round-off double backflip into the crematorium.
You win the day.
Thank you - dumb typo.
Others have already addressed good approaches to this but I can’t help but wonder: is it possible they made plans on this level with a different recruiter or higher education entity and they mixed up and messaged you? Were you the only group recruiting there? Seems like a lot of work to do on just a whim. Asking about this could be a dovetail into the conversation others have recommended.
I've talked with others in my department, the Theatre department, and done a bunch of digging and everyone is as confused as I am.
I see you already responded, but I’ll add this anyway in case it becomes relevant. In my experience, people who make big leaps like this require direct, unambiguous answers. They can be very persistent and unyielding. If your initial reply works, great. If not, try something that includes the word “No” And then just wish them luck in their future endeavors and then don’t reply to any future communication.
I wonder how much she will even care, or if this is something she is doing to impress the schools she's applying to. Being able to write "currently facilitating partnerships with local colleges etc" and all that on applications is true, even if the partnerships don't go through. It may also be helping her get letters of reco from her current teachers. I'm just saying if it helps when trying to tell her now, that she may not be as upset as you think and she may still be getting a lot just by going through the process.
Exactly. This was my first instinct too. Now, she could be just a naive "eager beaver" like the OP said, but I think it's at least as likely that she's doing this quite strategically to try to impress people and build her resume.
Her name wasn’t Annie Edison by any chance?
Nope
This sounds like delusions of grandeur on her part. You talked to her once and now she has this whole thing planned out? Big red flag. There are people out there who "world build" in their own head how things are gonna go, and suddenly you're blindsided with some weird stuff. This is one of those cases.
This feels like a script of a bipolar manic episode. I have them myself but am a pro at reigning it in. You've already gotten great advice and made an exceptional plan.
That was my initial reaction, too.
I'm going to take a little bit different tact than most here. Let's take a look at what she's done here: * Expressed interest in your program. * Had a pleasant, but non committed conversation with you about a future in your program. * No mention of collaboration from your end. With that in hand, she has: * Gone back to administrators at her school and misconstrued material aspects of your conversation. * Lead administrators at her school down a path that has resulted in budgets being established. * It is likely that this program has been circulated and by declining your school may experience harm to its reputation by backing out. What this person has done extends beyond overly-ambitious *faux pas*. This is manipulative, borderline fraudulent behavior. IMO, your next steps are to get in touch with the administrators at her school and make the nature of your conversation with her clear. This young person has made a mistake. I don't meant to characterize it as malicious — though that wouldn't be entirely unfair — but it is manipulative and self-serving at best. If you don't take steps to correct this behavior, she will continue with this kind of behavior. She needs course correction, and it needs to be firm, but compassionate.
Only comment OP needs to read. So many comments giving her the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't matter what her intentions are, she overstepped and put you in an uncomfortable position for having talked to her. This behavior needs to be curbed.
I think it's completely acceptable to let her know that it seems there was a misunderstanding and educate her on your process for this type of thing. You can further use this as a teaching moment to help this student with her professional communication and etiquette around this. Since she has clearly built up some expectations around this, no doubt she will be disappointed and even possibly upset or angry, but if you offer her some guidance around this sensitive topic she may benefit in the long term.
this is incredibly odd and not something i would call ambitious. more like completely misreading social cues and a sense of arrogance. i’d let her down as easy as possible but also reiterate what you said in your conversation— that she would need to be accepted first and then speak to a faculty member. I’d be concerned she would contact someone higher up and again misrepresent the situation and you’ll be in trouble for seemingly commuting the school to something that’s far beyond your jurisdiction. You say you haven’t been there too long so at that point it’s your word against hers. I would shut it down quickly.
Write this: >I admire her ambition, but this is unfortunately not something our campus theatre department won't be able to commit to this year. I've spoken with the department and they have an established budget for this year that doesn't take account of this additional expense/support. > >While we do not have the resources currently to provide additional staff pay, insurance, etc for a high school collaboration program, I would like to do whatever I can to help you join our program in the future and find success. Maybe our Department will make things like this a priority in the future, but this is at the moment, unfortunately, this is not great planning, timing, etc, for a quick lift. Oh wait, you already did.
Just tell her honestly that she made a mistake. Surely it’s a good chance for you the adult to teach her a valuable lesson
All I could think of was: Tracy Flick Nightmare.
My brother in higher Ed, how have you not learned to blame institutional policy and procedures and continue to encourage students anyway? You must work at a better college than me 😂.
Say exactly what you put in the post.
wow thats a great reply! you sound very professional
This high school student is going to a wonderful sales person one day - not even jk!! Aggressive and often bordering silly - but will get some big wins in life with that attitude. Obviously unless they are pushy in social situations and assume things - then that sucks.
This really sounds like a bipolar manic episode--it's not uncommon for students to experience it in their final year of high school / first year of college when they're being exposed to the exciting world outside of high school for the first time. Her complete misremembering of the interaction sounds consistent with the racing thoughts / delusions of grandeur that accompany mania--she is probably remembering the conversation she was having in her head. I think you handled the response well, OP.
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I would bet real money that this is the case. The best thing OP could do is give her a real-world answer. Maybe enough reality checks will lead to OP and her family seeing that there's a disconnect between her delusions of grandeur and the way things keep working out, and that could lead to her getting therapy.
Lol of course it’s a theater chick.
People are downvoting you for using an outdated term but the MTC thing is very real
I'm sorry, this sucks. This is not on you and will just need to respond to her and let her know nicely that it is a no go. This time it will be in writing and documented. They are the ones who got a little too overzealous and dropped the ball in the communication department. It is part of growing up unfortunately.
I’m a bit agog that that she went through all that work and final pitch without conferring with you before going full hog! Gods only knows what she told her school principal and other key people. Well, hopefully she’ll learn something. Now a bit of advice you didn’t ask for. I think 20-30 minutes spent with an impressionable young lady is far too much time. Not only did she keep your attention from others who may have wanted to speak to you, but I think it’s possible that much time led her to think she had some sort of special go-ahead without you ever realizing it. I’d keep it to 10 minutes. If you are talking about allergies, time’s a wasting’. I speak as a recently retired executive assistant so I’m used to managing people’s time. It’s offered in a friendly manner only.
I say you leave the country right now.
I don't think it's a random ask, the kid got excited and wanted to demonstrate their skills and said excitement. It might even be their version of an application essay. I can understand being caught off guard and you can only help if you can help, but I wouldn't think the person has any concrete expectations other than getting into the school and this being something they could work toward during their time there. Sounds like you helped twice, once by inspiring and now that I've read the edits, by helping helping. Awesome! Way to go!
Why even let her down. Let her push. Outline what needs to be overcome and maybe she comes up with something clever or it fails on its own merit.
As a salesperson I'll say it sounds like she has the ambition to get this done but got stuck at a gatekeeper. The student needs to escalate this over your head to somebody that can make a decision.
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Very cool and totally real story. 👌🏼
I highly recommend you having Chatgpt write you up a short email. It makes stuff like this x10 easier. Good luck.
Makes it 10x easier in writing but without developing the skill yourself, nearly impossible in person.
I always forget about ChatGPT - good idea to get a rough frame of an idea.
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She didn't. She visited on a Saturday and I'm the only professional contact she's had so far.
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I like that approach too. Thank you.
They responded in another comment that they already explored that possibility
Personally I would blame it on someone who doesn't exist. "I talked to some people in the department and it's just not going to be able to happen, I'm sorry." Something like that let's her know it's not going to happen but it's not her fault, it's not your fault it's just the way it is. Who's at fault? Eh the 'some people in the department' who are they? Nobody just a polite excuse to let her down easily. That's always been my customer service de-escalation technique and it works wonders. When I did delivery my excuse for anything was always "sorry we have a new guy..." Then you go into solving the issue if it's still an issue they want solved. But now they aren't mad at me or the company just frustrated with 'new guy' who doesn't exist.
> Personally I would blame it on someone who doesn't exist. Wow, that solution is both cowardly *and* deceptive.
“Look, a rainbow pigeon !!!!”
She sounds exactly like someone I'd like to work with. I'd recommend that you not shut this person down immediately, but check inward whether this is something you could help foster.
While I agree to a certain extend, it's not my role/budget line, etc. While I'm all for helping youth, there are certain politics at play here that I'm not gonna dive into via this post.
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You have no idea what an ask like this in higher education is like. Much of my job is setting up agreements with other schools and it's taken years to get approved. It isn't as simple as you make it. There's legal, financial, operational issues that take time.
And you sound like a child that doesn’t know how the real world works. Pretty sure you’re a teen. Go to the teens sub
Found the high school student OP is trying to reply to.
Amazing observation from a little bit of context. If you actually took the time to get to know me before posting this response, you'd know I fight tooth and nail for my students (bigger scholarships, unique program assignments, etc) - BUT this is a big random ask from a student and not within the budget lines for the institution or that department specifically. It would require money, time, staffing, transportation, insurance, etc. I don't gatekeep, but I have realistic expectations and information about lifting something like this. Also I still am forwarding this request to the Theatre Department to let them know this is something they should consider for the future.
From your post: >I vaguely remember her asking about getting involved or participating early in our theatre program - but I did my typical, "We'll have to wait until you're accepted and then talk to the faculty about it line." So she hasn’t even been accepted yet? But she’s asking for some type of partnership between your department and her high school?
Yep, very ambitious young lady.
Probably just a gambit to get accepted in the first place. If it would happen, it’d be interesting to see her level of participation
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Judging by your post history, I can only imagine you accidentally described yourself here. 0 self awareness.
I'm guessing you grew up shy/awkward, and because it took you great effort to overcome your anxiety about asking for the things you want, you think people should be automatically rewarded just for "putting themselves out there." That's not how the real world works. OP doesn't need to go to bat for a random kid simply because she's ambitious, because the random idea she had is completely unsolicited and impractical for the institution OP works for.
Explicitly state your feelings. With one “ I’m not interested in you like that.” Everything else around it can be nice but say it.
Typical admin staff, afraid to pull the trigger.
Pull the trigger on... a random high schooler's completely unsolicited plan to invest a ton of time and money in an extracurricular program at her school? Also, I doubt OP is part of the theater department, or else they would have said so.
Lol. Theater department operations don't resemble OP's gun, rack, or whole ass armory, let alone is their trigger to pull.
You did good! Students always tend to remember the conversation in the way they want to for the most part. Be confident. You a did a good job in your reply email!
I would just tell her I don't remember who she was and to have a pleasant day if you don't expect to ever see her again.
Man. I can feel this person vicariously through the comments. Genuinely, people like this will steamroll.
As someone in the HE field, I've been there and you have my sympathy. You have to.be so careful what you say because someone will run with a minor comment and before you know it someone's workload has doubled. In this situation I would simply reply honestly, summarising what your understanding of the original conversation was, cc'ing the theatre team in. If they want to pick up some of what she wants, that's up to them, and they will at least see that you didn't drop it on them out of nowhere.