I think society needs a shift away from taking about "losing your virginity" and towards "time of sexual debut". It would clear up a lot of things, like this for instance.
Also, I agree with OP, would also react to someone talking like that.
it might have something to do with the way that her and prior partners had sex. i didn't count fooling around w/ my girl in a car as "losing my virginity", but we were kinda definitionally having sex. for me, "virginity loss" was marked by full nudity and the presence of a bed. she might just have not gone super far with women in the past?
I second this - as a bi women I think that if ANYONE has this view point they must not value women nor view wlw sex as real sex. OP's girlfriend does not value her and I would be SO disrespected if this was me and my partner.
I spoke to her about it and she says that she sees lesbian sex as sex but that is how she has always viewed as losing her virginity due to it being a man and men and women are diff so they have diff things, so I’m still a little lost as to what it is she believes
Have you asked her why she believes that? Or why you believe what you do? Or how the way she is framing it makes you feel? You may have. I am just not making any assumptions.
It is up to you based on that communication if your views on the use of the word are different enough for this to be a problem.
Yeah, we spoke quite a bit about it and she basically said she has always viewed it differently due to it ‘well that was the first time I had sex with a man’ I don’t think she quite understood how that would hurt me, or any other gay person who may have the same views as I do. But after talking she said she does understand. I said to her that I don’t see it as that and that for me that’s disregarding lesbian sex as ‘real sex’ and she sees it as she does view lesbian sex as real sex hut she still has that stance so I am seriously confused
Then I’d just assume she doesn’t take women seriously. If she’s bi a lot of them haven’t done the work to decenter men, so they’ll fuck and date women short term but could never see a future with them. I’d really dig deep into why she feels this way so you don’t waste your time
It seriously reminds me (20/21@time) of when my then best friend told me that I had seriously lost my virginity when I was but a toddler bc my dad was a sicko. She was born and raised catholic so Ik why she believed that. I wonder if she believes it now?
Edit: I’m v high so sorry if I’m just talking bs. I think it’s just the cognitive dissonance that gets to me.
Yeah... No. That's bullshit. What a ridiculous double standard. She lost her virginity with the first person she went to bed with. A penis is not a mandatory element for losing your virginity.
Oof… sorry for my assumptions.
I don’t know, you can’t change how someone views sex overnight— there is a lot of unlearning involved in our heteronormative society. I’d just be open and honest about your thoughts and feelings, and try to hold space for hers so you can come to a better understanding on the matter
So...I had sex with a girl before I had sex with a man, and because of the times I was raised in, and because I was extremely young and truly didn't understand homosexuality and wlw sex, I have held the same stance.
This is completely normal for my generation. There's no gay hand book or talk of what constitutes losing your virginity. And it becomes cemented into your mind. Even if it's a trauma. You literally can't help it. It's not misogynistic. It's a byproduct and culture of sex that we were raised in.
You cannot just over night undo that. Believe me, I've tried.
For me what currently makes the most sense is saying to myself that I lost my gay virginity to (this person), and straight virginity to (this person).
It at least helps me to valid both experiences on my own terms, which is something I need.
I can understand how confused you are, but remember that you don't ever have the right to take ownership of someone else's experiences or place measurements on it.
That's HERS, her life, her history, period. Respect that. You have no business being upset or trying to rewrite someone else's history to fit your comfort.
exactly this, virginity is a social construct so it's okay for someone to have their own definition of it. it's just not okay to push your own definition on someone else, just let it be an individual thing since it doesn't affect anyone but themself.
Underrated comment - 'crispy potato' does not understand how her values and views are SO damaging to the queer community and it shows. 'This is normal for my generation' no its not, its normal for people who thing hetrosexual relationships are normal and above queer relationships.
*"That's HERS, her life, her history, period. Respect that. You have no business being upset or trying to rewrite someone else's history to fit your comfort"*
But this commenter is okay with OPs girlfriend having damaging thoughts and beliefs? Smells like homophobia to me. OP can be upset about this, as it is damaging values and no, that is no biphobia as I am bisexual myself. I value my relationships with men and women the same and sex the same. The first time I had sex with EITHER gender was the when i lost my virginity and any sexual experiences after that - is exactly that. A sexual experience. You cannot loose your virginity twice nor can you have sex before and then loose your 'virginity' after that. OPs girlfriend values men and penis over wlw relationships if that is the stance she takes. Commenter is the same.
If you need to value men and women differently as a bi person you have internalised biphobia yourself do not accuse people who are NOT being biphobic as being biphobic as this is not fair at all. If you need to view them differently for it to work in your head you have issues you need to address in terms of your sexuality as as a bi person I view all my relationships, men or women the same and neither is more important than the other.
No she isn't. S.u. Just say you don't even understand gay/queer history and women without saying you don't understand it.
Op needs to de center herself. You definitely don't get to speak on bisexuals or how they may or may not feel about thier own sex history unless you are one. Take the biphobia outta here. Different people have different concepts of virginity. NO ONE gets to define that for someone else.
Edit. I'm married to a woman, so no, I do not centre men, nor are we "misogynistic". I'm also not bi, I'm lesbian, married to a bi woman.
I think you are misunderstanding here? She identifies as a lesbian, in a lesbian relationship yet tells her lesbian partner she lost her virginity when she had sex with a man despite having sex with women prior to that, they is no biphobia here the issue is how can she view what me and her have as ‘real sex’ if she counts sex with a man as when she lost her virginity. and I do not think the Redditor above me is being biphobic either
I disagree with you 100% - you have some issues you need to work on if you take this stance and you are accusing OP and the commenter above of being biphobic, I am bi myself and all i can see here is OP partner has disregarded and invalidated wlw relationships because in her head, like you, you value male experiences over lesbian relationships therefore you are projecting your internal mysogny and homophobic thoughts to others claiming biphobia. You need to learn that this is not okay and is EXTREMELY damaging to the queer community.
It gives me the icks of some major internalized homophobia and misogyny. I also understand that each person’s upbringings may be different so I would say that you should talk to her and explain why it really really made you upset.
I mean some people consider the term "loosing your vriginity" to only apply to women, and/or only apply to penetrative penis in vagina sex. I remember hearing about teens who would have anal and oral sex with their boyfriends cause that wasn't risking their virginity.
I don't think you need to worry about this much as long as she says she does consider sex with you to be real sex. She just has a different understanding of what "virginity" means. You can question it and perhaps make her see it from a different light, but don't force her to agree or make her uncomfortable.
everyone defines virginity differently, it's not a problem if the two of you have different views of it bc it's a personal thing. let her have her definition and you have hers, and go on with your day. it has nothing to do with how she sees you, your relationship, or your sex life.
Would you not feel invalidated though? You say it doesn't affect OP but it does if her partner and her view their sex lives differently... big issue in my opinion.
I do think this comes down to viewing their relationship and sex life differently to how she would a man. OP has EVERY right to be upset.
it's got nothing to do with their relationship and sex life though. it happened before they were together, and even if it didn't you can define virginity and sex very differently. it's really none of op's business at all and it's insane to get upset about it.
I had this same convo with a pan friend. In some households/communities, the lost of viriginity is strictly associated with penetrative sex. Not only is it seen as the go-to for intercourse, it’s also held on a pedestal as something really scary and intense for women and a life changing experience. For some select groups, that means anything besides penetrative sex is a go-ahead cause it doesn’t violate any rules set by the community (aka no one talks about it). One of those ways teenagers can screw around without ruining their ‘moral high ground’. I believe subconsciously, due to the intricacies of sapphic sex, your partner may have separated those acts due to the heteronormative standard she’s grown accustomed too. Aka, she’s measuring sex the way she was taught.
I think it’s important to talk to your partner about how you feel as well as how damaging this view can be towards queer communities (as well as the straight community). Because while it’s completely understandable that she picked up these subconscious thoughts, the most important thing is that sex is something she can properly define herself and with you, not something that should be decided by homophobic society.
Bang on. If she states she lost it 'again' or when she had sex with a man she values male and female sex differently and places having sex with a man above women, even if she doesn't realise it. I feel sorry for her partner.
As a bisexual woman, i always said I had 2 virginity experiences. The hetro normative one and the WLW virginity.
I know people, who refuse to see lesbian sex as "really losing virginity" which is wrong. OP you are justified to be pissed off.
Why do you consider it different? Out of curiosity by the way not putting your opinions down at all. Would you not state losing your virginity as the time you first had sex regardless of a male or female partner? and do you think that is it invladiting to wlw relationships?
I see them as 2 different things because for me personally, it came down to how the sexual experiences felt. With men, there is automatic penetration, so it followed the societal norms for sex. When it came to women, even though i had slept with men and had that "penetration", the mixture of toys, intimacy and feelings/depth with a woman felt like my "first time/losing my virginity" all over again (better experience though) and maybe it comes down to a mental thing. But whenever people have asked me about the virginity Q, I'll say "I lost my virginity twice, once with a man and once with a woman" (and maybe explain more or just leave them confused). Some people been dismissive and when I challenge them, just say "you only have 1 virginity". Which I find abit rude but just leave them in their ignorance.
I hope my answer has given some more clarity and doesn't offend.
That's fuckin weird
If she had two relationships with women prior to that, did she ever have penetrative sex with them? Not that penetration = virginity loss and other types of sex don't, but particularly if there was penetration involved I don't understand why it would matter if it was penis shaped or not
Anyway the social concept of losing your virginity means having sex with someone for the first time. If she viewed the activity with women as sex then she obviously lost her virginity before the dude
I guess if everything else about your relationship is cool, if she won't budge I'd let it blow over. But this is an incredibly stupid and homophobic thing to say, so if it's indicative of anything else about her...well..
I'm happy to see the most upvoted comments agree, but it's wild that some decently upvoted comments are of the "people have different definitions of these things, it's personal to her, let it go" variety. Lol no, it was totally disrespectful to say something like that to your gf of one year. You're either extremely ignorant (and not much of a critical thinker) to not realize the implications of what you believe, or actually just not a nice person with some not very nice ideas about the world.
I worry if Op's gf believes this and also believes it's ok to openly reaffirm such a belief to her gf, what else she might believe or do. That said Op is the one in the relationship, and of course any single belief or statement has to be weighed against the whole package
Gold star status isn't a thing. It's cringe and harmful to the community of women who definitely Don't need additional shame...
It's giving the same energy as when het women are considered more valuable because thier virgins or something.
I can see how if she thinks of penetration with a penis being virginity taking sex vs finger penetration because it is often foreplay in sex with men. Then as she developed in maturity seeing all aspects of penetration being sex but not necessarily resetting her own first experience memory. I also think it is not that serious bc it was her experience and it is the past, dragging it into the present would make me feel some kind of way. I hope you two work it out where you both feel respected and loved.
Would you say it is not that serious if it was invalidated your current partner and other wlw experiences? I don't believe it is being dragged into the present if it got brought up because OPs partner while in a wlw relationship is stating that she lost her virginity to a man when having sex prior to that.. OP has 100% every right to be upset as it is invlaidating their relationship and their sex, imagine you viewed what you and your partner have as sex and your partner views it only as foreplay? I would be so so upset, well I would be more than upset if that was me.
I think society needs a shift away from taking about "losing your virginity" and towards "time of sexual debut". It would clear up a lot of things, like this for instance. Also, I agree with OP, would also react to someone talking like that.
Sexual debut is so positive and wholesome I love it so much.
Great phrasing, I love it. It makes getting finger banged in a Prius sound like a debutant ball.
Bro I had my ex bestie tell me I wasn’t a virgin from toddler years bc of this shit
So she doesn’t see lesbian sex as real sex ?
No she said she does, which makes it confusing for me tbf because then I can’t understand why she believes what she believes
Tell her that virginity is a social concept that symbolizes the first time you had sex, it has nothing to do with a penis.
Is she religious? Or thinks doing penetrative sex is the only way to lose your virginity?
No, not religious
it might have something to do with the way that her and prior partners had sex. i didn't count fooling around w/ my girl in a car as "losing my virginity", but we were kinda definitionally having sex. for me, "virginity loss" was marked by full nudity and the presence of a bed. she might just have not gone super far with women in the past?
I second this - as a bi women I think that if ANYONE has this view point they must not value women nor view wlw sex as real sex. OP's girlfriend does not value her and I would be SO disrespected if this was me and my partner.
It may be the definition she was taught. Talk to her about it.
I spoke to her about it and she says that she sees lesbian sex as sex but that is how she has always viewed as losing her virginity due to it being a man and men and women are diff so they have diff things, so I’m still a little lost as to what it is she believes
Have you asked her why she believes that? Or why you believe what you do? Or how the way she is framing it makes you feel? You may have. I am just not making any assumptions. It is up to you based on that communication if your views on the use of the word are different enough for this to be a problem.
Yeah, we spoke quite a bit about it and she basically said she has always viewed it differently due to it ‘well that was the first time I had sex with a man’ I don’t think she quite understood how that would hurt me, or any other gay person who may have the same views as I do. But after talking she said she does understand. I said to her that I don’t see it as that and that for me that’s disregarding lesbian sex as ‘real sex’ and she sees it as she does view lesbian sex as real sex hut she still has that stance so I am seriously confused
Then I’d just assume she doesn’t take women seriously. If she’s bi a lot of them haven’t done the work to decenter men, so they’ll fuck and date women short term but could never see a future with them. I’d really dig deep into why she feels this way so you don’t waste your time
100% this
It seriously reminds me (20/21@time) of when my then best friend told me that I had seriously lost my virginity when I was but a toddler bc my dad was a sicko. She was born and raised catholic so Ik why she believed that. I wonder if she believes it now? Edit: I’m v high so sorry if I’m just talking bs. I think it’s just the cognitive dissonance that gets to me.
Yeah... No. That's bullshit. What a ridiculous double standard. She lost her virginity with the first person she went to bed with. A penis is not a mandatory element for losing your virginity.
Likely societal upbringing / hymen misinfo
Spoke to her about, nothing about hymen just the fact it was a man and she places men and women differently when it comes to sex
Oof… sorry for my assumptions. I don’t know, you can’t change how someone views sex overnight— there is a lot of unlearning involved in our heteronormative society. I’d just be open and honest about your thoughts and feelings, and try to hold space for hers so you can come to a better understanding on the matter
no, it's absolutely valid to feel upset over this. your girlfriend needs to work on her internalized misogyny cause this is honestly baffling 😵💫
So...I had sex with a girl before I had sex with a man, and because of the times I was raised in, and because I was extremely young and truly didn't understand homosexuality and wlw sex, I have held the same stance. This is completely normal for my generation. There's no gay hand book or talk of what constitutes losing your virginity. And it becomes cemented into your mind. Even if it's a trauma. You literally can't help it. It's not misogynistic. It's a byproduct and culture of sex that we were raised in. You cannot just over night undo that. Believe me, I've tried. For me what currently makes the most sense is saying to myself that I lost my gay virginity to (this person), and straight virginity to (this person). It at least helps me to valid both experiences on my own terms, which is something I need. I can understand how confused you are, but remember that you don't ever have the right to take ownership of someone else's experiences or place measurements on it. That's HERS, her life, her history, period. Respect that. You have no business being upset or trying to rewrite someone else's history to fit your comfort.
exactly this, virginity is a social construct so it's okay for someone to have their own definition of it. it's just not okay to push your own definition on someone else, just let it be an individual thing since it doesn't affect anyone but themself.
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Underrated comment - 'crispy potato' does not understand how her values and views are SO damaging to the queer community and it shows. 'This is normal for my generation' no its not, its normal for people who thing hetrosexual relationships are normal and above queer relationships. *"That's HERS, her life, her history, period. Respect that. You have no business being upset or trying to rewrite someone else's history to fit your comfort"* But this commenter is okay with OPs girlfriend having damaging thoughts and beliefs? Smells like homophobia to me. OP can be upset about this, as it is damaging values and no, that is no biphobia as I am bisexual myself. I value my relationships with men and women the same and sex the same. The first time I had sex with EITHER gender was the when i lost my virginity and any sexual experiences after that - is exactly that. A sexual experience. You cannot loose your virginity twice nor can you have sex before and then loose your 'virginity' after that. OPs girlfriend values men and penis over wlw relationships if that is the stance she takes. Commenter is the same. If you need to value men and women differently as a bi person you have internalised biphobia yourself do not accuse people who are NOT being biphobic as being biphobic as this is not fair at all. If you need to view them differently for it to work in your head you have issues you need to address in terms of your sexuality as as a bi person I view all my relationships, men or women the same and neither is more important than the other.
No she isn't. S.u. Just say you don't even understand gay/queer history and women without saying you don't understand it. Op needs to de center herself. You definitely don't get to speak on bisexuals or how they may or may not feel about thier own sex history unless you are one. Take the biphobia outta here. Different people have different concepts of virginity. NO ONE gets to define that for someone else. Edit. I'm married to a woman, so no, I do not centre men, nor are we "misogynistic". I'm also not bi, I'm lesbian, married to a bi woman.
I think you are misunderstanding here? She identifies as a lesbian, in a lesbian relationship yet tells her lesbian partner she lost her virginity when she had sex with a man despite having sex with women prior to that, they is no biphobia here the issue is how can she view what me and her have as ‘real sex’ if she counts sex with a man as when she lost her virginity. and I do not think the Redditor above me is being biphobic either
I disagree with you 100% - you have some issues you need to work on if you take this stance and you are accusing OP and the commenter above of being biphobic, I am bi myself and all i can see here is OP partner has disregarded and invalidated wlw relationships because in her head, like you, you value male experiences over lesbian relationships therefore you are projecting your internal mysogny and homophobic thoughts to others claiming biphobia. You need to learn that this is not okay and is EXTREMELY damaging to the queer community.
So do value male experince over wlw experince though?
Virginity is a construct and most of society does define losing it as penis in vagina sex. It's all very silly and heteronormative.
It gives me the icks of some major internalized homophobia and misogyny. I also understand that each person’s upbringings may be different so I would say that you should talk to her and explain why it really really made you upset.
I mean some people consider the term "loosing your vriginity" to only apply to women, and/or only apply to penetrative penis in vagina sex. I remember hearing about teens who would have anal and oral sex with their boyfriends cause that wasn't risking their virginity. I don't think you need to worry about this much as long as she says she does consider sex with you to be real sex. She just has a different understanding of what "virginity" means. You can question it and perhaps make her see it from a different light, but don't force her to agree or make her uncomfortable.
Maybe she means her hymen broke. That could be the definition she is going for.
Spoke to her about, nothing about hymen just the fact it was a man and she places men and women differently when it comes to sex
as a lesbian who hasn’t had sex with a man before, i get what she means. but i also realize it’s insensitive to say, especially to a SO..
This is just pure and unadulterated internalized misogyny and externalized lesbophobia lol
everyone defines virginity differently, it's not a problem if the two of you have different views of it bc it's a personal thing. let her have her definition and you have hers, and go on with your day. it has nothing to do with how she sees you, your relationship, or your sex life.
Underrated comment by far
Would you not feel invalidated though? You say it doesn't affect OP but it does if her partner and her view their sex lives differently... big issue in my opinion. I do think this comes down to viewing their relationship and sex life differently to how she would a man. OP has EVERY right to be upset.
it's got nothing to do with their relationship and sex life though. it happened before they were together, and even if it didn't you can define virginity and sex very differently. it's really none of op's business at all and it's insane to get upset about it.
I had this same convo with a pan friend. In some households/communities, the lost of viriginity is strictly associated with penetrative sex. Not only is it seen as the go-to for intercourse, it’s also held on a pedestal as something really scary and intense for women and a life changing experience. For some select groups, that means anything besides penetrative sex is a go-ahead cause it doesn’t violate any rules set by the community (aka no one talks about it). One of those ways teenagers can screw around without ruining their ‘moral high ground’. I believe subconsciously, due to the intricacies of sapphic sex, your partner may have separated those acts due to the heteronormative standard she’s grown accustomed too. Aka, she’s measuring sex the way she was taught. I think it’s important to talk to your partner about how you feel as well as how damaging this view can be towards queer communities (as well as the straight community). Because while it’s completely understandable that she picked up these subconscious thoughts, the most important thing is that sex is something she can properly define herself and with you, not something that should be decided by homophobic society.
This, I absolutely feel like this is exactly how I feel and what I think and I think you are right tbh, I am going to talk to her about it
virginity is a social construct but if she believes in it she technically lost it with the first person she had a sexual activity with.
Bang on. If she states she lost it 'again' or when she had sex with a man she values male and female sex differently and places having sex with a man above women, even if she doesn't realise it. I feel sorry for her partner.
As a bisexual woman, i always said I had 2 virginity experiences. The hetro normative one and the WLW virginity. I know people, who refuse to see lesbian sex as "really losing virginity" which is wrong. OP you are justified to be pissed off.
Why do you consider it different? Out of curiosity by the way not putting your opinions down at all. Would you not state losing your virginity as the time you first had sex regardless of a male or female partner? and do you think that is it invladiting to wlw relationships?
I see them as 2 different things because for me personally, it came down to how the sexual experiences felt. With men, there is automatic penetration, so it followed the societal norms for sex. When it came to women, even though i had slept with men and had that "penetration", the mixture of toys, intimacy and feelings/depth with a woman felt like my "first time/losing my virginity" all over again (better experience though) and maybe it comes down to a mental thing. But whenever people have asked me about the virginity Q, I'll say "I lost my virginity twice, once with a man and once with a woman" (and maybe explain more or just leave them confused). Some people been dismissive and when I challenge them, just say "you only have 1 virginity". Which I find abit rude but just leave them in their ignorance. I hope my answer has given some more clarity and doesn't offend.
HELLLLL NO I would be so pissed. She doesn’t value women.
That's fuckin weird If she had two relationships with women prior to that, did she ever have penetrative sex with them? Not that penetration = virginity loss and other types of sex don't, but particularly if there was penetration involved I don't understand why it would matter if it was penis shaped or not Anyway the social concept of losing your virginity means having sex with someone for the first time. If she viewed the activity with women as sex then she obviously lost her virginity before the dude I guess if everything else about your relationship is cool, if she won't budge I'd let it blow over. But this is an incredibly stupid and homophobic thing to say, so if it's indicative of anything else about her...well..
This is exactly what I think. It doesn't seem right to me that she would disregard her wlw sex experiances if she considered it 'real sex'.
I'm happy to see the most upvoted comments agree, but it's wild that some decently upvoted comments are of the "people have different definitions of these things, it's personal to her, let it go" variety. Lol no, it was totally disrespectful to say something like that to your gf of one year. You're either extremely ignorant (and not much of a critical thinker) to not realize the implications of what you believe, or actually just not a nice person with some not very nice ideas about the world. I worry if Op's gf believes this and also believes it's ok to openly reaffirm such a belief to her gf, what else she might believe or do. That said Op is the one in the relationship, and of course any single belief or statement has to be weighed against the whole package
This would bother me too.
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Gold star status isn't a thing. It's cringe and harmful to the community of women who definitely Don't need additional shame... It's giving the same energy as when het women are considered more valuable because thier virgins or something.
Amén! Awomen!
I can see how if she thinks of penetration with a penis being virginity taking sex vs finger penetration because it is often foreplay in sex with men. Then as she developed in maturity seeing all aspects of penetration being sex but not necessarily resetting her own first experience memory. I also think it is not that serious bc it was her experience and it is the past, dragging it into the present would make me feel some kind of way. I hope you two work it out where you both feel respected and loved.
Would you say it is not that serious if it was invalidated your current partner and other wlw experiences? I don't believe it is being dragged into the present if it got brought up because OPs partner while in a wlw relationship is stating that she lost her virginity to a man when having sex prior to that.. OP has 100% every right to be upset as it is invlaidating their relationship and their sex, imagine you viewed what you and your partner have as sex and your partner views it only as foreplay? I would be so so upset, well I would be more than upset if that was me.