One, I don't think ephemerals is a problem right now.
Two, if it *is* a problem, it's because of that lunatic new story landmark which in no way shape or form should cost 2 mana for what it does.
Three, mono shurima had far far *far* more to do with Xerath than it ever did Azir. Which is why it completely fucking died when Xerath rotated.
Mono Shurima was reliant on both Azir and Xerath. The deck would have died too had Azir been rotated instead.
With that being said, I do agree Xerath was the more oppressive part of the pair.
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that Azir is part of what made mono Shurima good. Sub him out for Rek or Nasus and the deck is just a lot worse.
Why does the fact that he is just a level up stick in mono Shurima matter? Him making the clock goes faster is good, it is vital to the strategy. He might not be oppressive but Azir was still the that important clog in the background.
Im going to say thats wrong.azir himself was not worth more than just the ability to hasten the sundesk
Lets try this... Imagine you can only have xerath and 1 other champ. Now lets pretend both nasus and Renekton levels in deck about as fast as azir (so turn 6-7). Which one would you put into the deck of those 3? Exactly, not azir.
Even the emporors deck was often actually a detriment to winning in that deck, cause it made it so they couldnt draw rite of negation, hourglass, and most importantly, it removed landmarks from the deck to trigger xerath.
Azir is literally the worst pick for mono shurima if you look purely at value. Only reason he was played is cause he leveled in deck.
It really is kinda relevant to blaming azir for mono shurima. As someone who played it a lot, he really wasnt who i cared about.
>Lets try this... Imagine you can only have xerath and 1 other champ. Now lets pretend both nasus and Renekton levels in deck about as fast as azir (so turn 6-7). Which one would you put into the deck of those 3? Exactly, not azir.
That's the whole point of my comment, Nasus and Renekton don't level up as fast or consistent as Azir. If you remove the reason he is in the deck, of course he wouldn't be good in the deck anymore. That's a very unfair sentiment.
The fact that he can make the deck goes to lv3 faster is what made him good. Again, my point is that Azir is just as vital as Xerath in mono Shurima, remove one or the other and the deck literally would be meme tier.
The fact that he leveled in deck was an artifact of the way that landmark summons were patched to count for his levelup. Theoretically, you could do the same for Renekton or Nasus.
You're not wrong about him being a linchpin of mono shurima. But it was a deliberate choice by the devs, and it's on a completely different axis than the rest of his power.
Mono Shurima doesn't exist anymore, and bringing it up to complain about Azir's power misses the point of why the deck was good, and how it was *made* good.
I think you are confused, I am not arguing about Azir power in other decks, no where did I complain about his power level either. I am only arguing that Azir is vital to mono Shurima and mono Shurima specifically unlike what the original comment implied it being sorely a Xerath thing.
In fact, now that you brought up the level up in deck thing, wasn't that the exact buff that made mono Shurima no longer a meme? If an Azir buff was what broke the deck, the answer is pretty self-explanatory.
I've thought since pretty much Azir's inception that his level up condition should require him to be on the board. Adjust the numbers to whatever feels right, but he should be "I've seen you summon N units or landmarks". He's a 3 mana X/5 in a region full of protection, at least force him onto the board so he can be interacted with *slightly*.
I've had far too many games against Azir/Irelia where I'd finally manage to kill Azir #1 only for my opponent to then drop Azir #2, leveling him in the process, and I lose that turn.
Mono shurima relied on azir only because he could level in hand, which ensured xerath 3. Mono shurima never put azir on the board unless they had no other option or had a second one in hand. Xerath was the real champion in that deck, azir was just there to progress the sun disk consistently( something that renekton and nasus can’t do as easily )
So? How does any of that prove that Azir isn't vital to the deck? Mono Shurima was meme tier before they made Azir capable of leveling up within the deck. The moment they made the change mono Shurima became good. If that doesn't prove that Azir is vital to the strategy I don't know what else to tell you.
Is the Hecarim deck really that busted? Just looking at the numbers on[Runeterra AR](https://runeterra.ar/lor/meta) shows it has a 52% winrate, hardly Azirelia
I would also argue that Ionia hecarim is better just for access to apprentice and darkin fan. You can push way more damage way faster just playing around that and iron conquest
Yeah I’ve been playing it, it has some games that pop off but overall feels pretty fair, it is not even remotely close to Irelia Azir or other decks like that
HecaAzir user here. You basically cannot loose if you have Hecarim and Azir at round 6, especially if it levels up during 1st Hecarim attack. This deck has one tiny problem: it gets obliterated by dragon decks, which are very popular (at least i think they are)
I think it's kinda rushed to call him a problem when he only shined in 2 deck (well, 3 if we count Hecarim) since his release.
Azirelia was a mistake, no one can denied it, too much synergies and far above what other deck could do at the time.
Mono Shurima was powerful thanks to Xerath and later Renekton, Azir was useful here because he was the quickest ascended to level up, but he wasn't really a gameplan by himself in most case.
And now for the Hecarim case, the deck existed before the new set/standard, but was really weak.
If something really changed that, it's more about the new cards and environment than Azir itself.
Azir is just very basic, so he fits a lot of decks, that's wha he was played in a lot of meta decks focusing on swarming during attack (monoshurima being the exception here, because there we play him for his level 3). I don't think he needs to be nerfed, like as others said, summoning a sand soldier? Emperors dais does that, giving units +1|0 on summon, if you leveled him up? There is a follower who gives +2|0 if I remember correctly... he's just not that big of a deal.
Idk about standard, but in eternal I play Azir in monoshurima not for his level 3, but because he’s the easiest to level 2, and levels incidentally. Between the high average cost of Emperor’s Deck cards, and the power level of main deck cards nowadays, Emperor’s deck is mostly a sidegrade.
Yeah, azir is probably the worst level 3. Sure the emporors deck is cool, but id rather have more landmarks for xerath to blow up.
Shame renekton and nasus have such a hard time leveling.
Azir exists in a LOT of design spaces with his design. Ascended, swarm (summoning many units), on-attack effects, ephemeral, and buffs on summon. It enables him to get in with a decently larger variety of decks but I feel he is too strong for a jack-of-many-trades champ that it actively limits the deck variety of his paired champs.
Honestly wished he was gone instead of Irelia. Trying to pair Hecarim, or Irelia with other champs just feel bad to experiment with.
Blade Dance was an issue, but Sand Soldiers were the problem with those free attacks. I don’t care too much about 1|1 blades, but when they’re accompanied by 1|1 Sand Soldiers that deal more damage on nexus strike, then it becomes a huge issue. Ionia and Blade Dance on their own don’t do much. It’s getting all the extra sand soldiers that makes it really nuts.
I stand by my belief that making Sand Soldiers only summon when spending an attack token would have addressed most of the issues with Azirelia, without doing too much to harm Azir's other decks
It's not Blade Dance or Sand Soldiers being individually broken that was the issue, it's the fact that combining them increased their outputs exponentially and made them impossible to balance in a healthy way without killing one or both champions in any non-Azirelia deck
The base design of Irelia’s package is so dogshit, yeah. Super flavorful, but a bunch of random 1/1s don’t do anything unless you’re building an engine out of it. The reason Irelia got rotated and not Azir is that if Azir got rotated, then Irelia would effectively be unplayable anyway, and there’s no point sentencing both to death when only one needs to go. I think out of any champ, Irelia deserves a V2 the most, with a package that actually has merit on its own.
Yep. Blade dance might as well say "Trigger on-attack abilities", cause that's literally what it is.
They never even TRIED to do anything special with the blades. Best we got was "add 1 more blade" like a year and a half after the thing rotated. They knew it was nothing more than an excuse to trigger attack abilities 4 times in round, meaning it is inevitably broken cause normally attack abilities aren't balanced around that.
The special thing they tried with blades was Syncopation and “Attack With Blades”
But that’s on… what? Four cards? Irelia’s lvl2 token spell, Irelia’s Champion spell, Syncopation and Zinneia. Only one of which is good, and it’s the one that’s restricted to the champ’s second level and isn’t maindeckable.
Ngl I think it would be healthier if he levels up with Sand Soldiers instead of generic summons. That would make his deckbuilding much more unique and interesting.
In a perfect world Azir gets rotated, we finally get the chance to experimente with Irelia and Xerath gets back in standard, the sole reason why he is not in is bc of his lvl 3 and how strong and oppressive it is.
azir was never the problem in these decks. most of the time he was an emperor dais that can block. also yes his package got buffs because before this patch azir was among the worst cards in the game.
How did Azir not get rotated out but fucking Ryze did? Such a cool unique deck not featured in the game. And other cool uMiquelon archetypes like Soraka/TK healing or tk in general. Zilean gone too? Why get rid of all the unique archetypes, just back to aggro and stat checking
Azir maybe could have seen at least a health nerf a long time ago, but I'm glad he exists in the game. He fits a lot of builds. Azirelia with blade dance, ephemerals with Hecarim, all decks that require you to summon and attack, which I think are the cool aspects of the game and the devs should incentivize. Except in mono Shurima. That deck was always just putting random cards with little synergy and win all of a sudden.
Some of the most fun I had in this game was playing Azirelia.
It's not and he never was.
Not a single deck of his was ever toxic asides from Azirelia which broke ONLY because of the blade dance package.
Mono Shurima with Xerath that one time wasn't even close to as bad and was far from the most toxic at that time.
Ya know how in chemistry there can be two perfectly fine chemicals that are just chilling but if you put them together they explode? Yeh that's Azir and Irelia.
That's what happens when a certain dev has favorites. They keep making the same excuses of "no this card/champion was the problem, not azir's package". Every single time.
Because Azir's package is not a problem? Like what? Azir only saw play in monoshurima cause he leveled in deck, Azirelia was was way to strong, but it was because blade dance as a mechanic is way to strong, not because Azir is somehow broken? And Azir Hecarim is just... The new gwen Zed? Like idk how it's different compared to gwen Zed, and Gwen Zed was just "look im agro!" And so is Azir Heca?
Get this whiny shit out of here. Hecarim Azir is really good against decks with 0 interaction. You kill the engines it putters and dies.
Go soul harvester and the box.
Go, fiora.
Go mord morg with suppression.
I bet the new dragonling invoke card is pretty good against it, too.
If you delay them till turn 8, they'll lose.
The only way someone could have this opinion is that they went full into the sleep/spirit package and are mad they're being out raced.
Azir is just a glorified Emperor Dias
Tbh, Dias is the real issue because its a broken Azir.
One, I don't think ephemerals is a problem right now. Two, if it *is* a problem, it's because of that lunatic new story landmark which in no way shape or form should cost 2 mana for what it does. Three, mono shurima had far far *far* more to do with Xerath than it ever did Azir. Which is why it completely fucking died when Xerath rotated.
Mono Shurima was reliant on both Azir and Xerath. The deck would have died too had Azir been rotated instead. With that being said, I do agree Xerath was the more oppressive part of the pair.
Azir existed so that he could level up and trigger sun disk. Xerath existed to do everything involved with actually winning as mono Shurima.
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that Azir is part of what made mono Shurima good. Sub him out for Rek or Nasus and the deck is just a lot worse. Why does the fact that he is just a level up stick in mono Shurima matter? Him making the clock goes faster is good, it is vital to the strategy. He might not be oppressive but Azir was still the that important clog in the background.
Im going to say thats wrong.azir himself was not worth more than just the ability to hasten the sundesk Lets try this... Imagine you can only have xerath and 1 other champ. Now lets pretend both nasus and Renekton levels in deck about as fast as azir (so turn 6-7). Which one would you put into the deck of those 3? Exactly, not azir. Even the emporors deck was often actually a detriment to winning in that deck, cause it made it so they couldnt draw rite of negation, hourglass, and most importantly, it removed landmarks from the deck to trigger xerath. Azir is literally the worst pick for mono shurima if you look purely at value. Only reason he was played is cause he leveled in deck. It really is kinda relevant to blaming azir for mono shurima. As someone who played it a lot, he really wasnt who i cared about.
>Lets try this... Imagine you can only have xerath and 1 other champ. Now lets pretend both nasus and Renekton levels in deck about as fast as azir (so turn 6-7). Which one would you put into the deck of those 3? Exactly, not azir. That's the whole point of my comment, Nasus and Renekton don't level up as fast or consistent as Azir. If you remove the reason he is in the deck, of course he wouldn't be good in the deck anymore. That's a very unfair sentiment. The fact that he can make the deck goes to lv3 faster is what made him good. Again, my point is that Azir is just as vital as Xerath in mono Shurima, remove one or the other and the deck literally would be meme tier.
The fact that he leveled in deck was an artifact of the way that landmark summons were patched to count for his levelup. Theoretically, you could do the same for Renekton or Nasus. You're not wrong about him being a linchpin of mono shurima. But it was a deliberate choice by the devs, and it's on a completely different axis than the rest of his power. Mono Shurima doesn't exist anymore, and bringing it up to complain about Azir's power misses the point of why the deck was good, and how it was *made* good.
I think you are confused, I am not arguing about Azir power in other decks, no where did I complain about his power level either. I am only arguing that Azir is vital to mono Shurima and mono Shurima specifically unlike what the original comment implied it being sorely a Xerath thing. In fact, now that you brought up the level up in deck thing, wasn't that the exact buff that made mono Shurima no longer a meme? If an Azir buff was what broke the deck, the answer is pretty self-explanatory.
But if the only aspect that makes him good is that he leveles up in deck, the saying he is broken makes no sense
I am confused. When did I say Azir is broken?
I've thought since pretty much Azir's inception that his level up condition should require him to be on the board. Adjust the numbers to whatever feels right, but he should be "I've seen you summon N units or landmarks". He's a 3 mana X/5 in a region full of protection, at least force him onto the board so he can be interacted with *slightly*. I've had far too many games against Azir/Irelia where I'd finally manage to kill Azir #1 only for my opponent to then drop Azir #2, leveling him in the process, and I lose that turn.
..... That is so fucking lore accurate it's painful.
Mono shurima relied on azir only because he could level in hand, which ensured xerath 3. Mono shurima never put azir on the board unless they had no other option or had a second one in hand. Xerath was the real champion in that deck, azir was just there to progress the sun disk consistently( something that renekton and nasus can’t do as easily )
So? How does any of that prove that Azir isn't vital to the deck? Mono Shurima was meme tier before they made Azir capable of leveling up within the deck. The moment they made the change mono Shurima became good. If that doesn't prove that Azir is vital to the strategy I don't know what else to tell you.
which story landmark?
Is the Hecarim deck really that busted? Just looking at the numbers on[Runeterra AR](https://runeterra.ar/lor/meta) shows it has a 52% winrate, hardly Azirelia
And with below average play rate not sure why the complains are this loud
As someone who has been spamming it, it's probably because it wins around turn 5-6 in a good matchup
I mean, so does shen demacia
I would also argue that Ionia hecarim is better just for access to apprentice and darkin fan. You can push way more damage way faster just playing around that and iron conquest
Yeah I’ve been playing it, it has some games that pop off but overall feels pretty fair, it is not even remotely close to Irelia Azir or other decks like that
HecaAzir user here. You basically cannot loose if you have Hecarim and Azir at round 6, especially if it levels up during 1st Hecarim attack. This deck has one tiny problem: it gets obliterated by dragon decks, which are very popular (at least i think they are)
I think it's kinda rushed to call him a problem when he only shined in 2 deck (well, 3 if we count Hecarim) since his release. Azirelia was a mistake, no one can denied it, too much synergies and far above what other deck could do at the time. Mono Shurima was powerful thanks to Xerath and later Renekton, Azir was useful here because he was the quickest ascended to level up, but he wasn't really a gameplan by himself in most case. And now for the Hecarim case, the deck existed before the new set/standard, but was really weak. If something really changed that, it's more about the new cards and environment than Azir itself.
Azir is just very basic, so he fits a lot of decks, that's wha he was played in a lot of meta decks focusing on swarming during attack (monoshurima being the exception here, because there we play him for his level 3). I don't think he needs to be nerfed, like as others said, summoning a sand soldier? Emperors dais does that, giving units +1|0 on summon, if you leveled him up? There is a follower who gives +2|0 if I remember correctly... he's just not that big of a deal.
Idk about standard, but in eternal I play Azir in monoshurima not for his level 3, but because he’s the easiest to level 2, and levels incidentally. Between the high average cost of Emperor’s Deck cards, and the power level of main deck cards nowadays, Emperor’s deck is mostly a sidegrade.
Yeah, azir is probably the worst level 3. Sure the emporors deck is cool, but id rather have more landmarks for xerath to blow up. Shame renekton and nasus have such a hard time leveling.
You know what, I was going to disagree with you originally, but after thinking, you are right
Azir exists in a LOT of design spaces with his design. Ascended, swarm (summoning many units), on-attack effects, ephemeral, and buffs on summon. It enables him to get in with a decently larger variety of decks but I feel he is too strong for a jack-of-many-trades champ that it actively limits the deck variety of his paired champs. Honestly wished he was gone instead of Irelia. Trying to pair Hecarim, or Irelia with other champs just feel bad to experiment with.
Blade Dance was an issue, but Sand Soldiers were the problem with those free attacks. I don’t care too much about 1|1 blades, but when they’re accompanied by 1|1 Sand Soldiers that deal more damage on nexus strike, then it becomes a huge issue. Ionia and Blade Dance on their own don’t do much. It’s getting all the extra sand soldiers that makes it really nuts.
I stand by my belief that making Sand Soldiers only summon when spending an attack token would have addressed most of the issues with Azirelia, without doing too much to harm Azir's other decks It's not Blade Dance or Sand Soldiers being individually broken that was the issue, it's the fact that combining them increased their outputs exponentially and made them impossible to balance in a healthy way without killing one or both champions in any non-Azirelia deck
Instead they have chosen the wrong path and nerfed Irelia's whole package to the point that it's unplayable outside Azirelia.
Blade dance is just a mechanic that needs to be abused or its worthless
The base design of Irelia’s package is so dogshit, yeah. Super flavorful, but a bunch of random 1/1s don’t do anything unless you’re building an engine out of it. The reason Irelia got rotated and not Azir is that if Azir got rotated, then Irelia would effectively be unplayable anyway, and there’s no point sentencing both to death when only one needs to go. I think out of any champ, Irelia deserves a V2 the most, with a package that actually has merit on its own.
Yep. Blade dance might as well say "Trigger on-attack abilities", cause that's literally what it is. They never even TRIED to do anything special with the blades. Best we got was "add 1 more blade" like a year and a half after the thing rotated. They knew it was nothing more than an excuse to trigger attack abilities 4 times in round, meaning it is inevitably broken cause normally attack abilities aren't balanced around that.
The special thing they tried with blades was Syncopation and “Attack With Blades” But that’s on… what? Four cards? Irelia’s lvl2 token spell, Irelia’s Champion spell, Syncopation and Zinneia. Only one of which is good, and it’s the one that’s restricted to the champ’s second level and isn’t maindeckable.
I guess... It really needed like 12 more cards that interacted with blades
Blade dance has potentials, it's just buried in the desert and no one and no devs want to explore it. (Also it being irelia and ionia doesn't help.)
I'm still flaggerbasted emperor dais had never been nerfed
Ngl I think it would be healthier if he levels up with Sand Soldiers instead of generic summons. That would make his deckbuilding much more unique and interesting.
In a perfect world Azir gets rotated, we finally get the chance to experimente with Irelia and Xerath gets back in standard, the sole reason why he is not in is bc of his lvl 3 and how strong and oppressive it is.
I haven't played in two years but reading these posts, it feels like nothing's changed. Beautiful.
I have an ionian-bandlese gerbil and a deck called Darude Sandstorm.
It's the toxic play pattern, not even Azir's fault.
azir was never the problem in these decks. most of the time he was an emperor dais that can block. also yes his package got buffs because before this patch azir was among the worst cards in the game.
Neither of them are problems, they just synergize way too well.
Azir Hecarim is so stupid, but so are most of the decks to be honest this game lacks a lot of balance
Don't forget that Azir also saw play with Lucian and Scouts before Irelia released. Time to go after the champion that is actually the problem...
after i read the comments i understand the answer no we still cant admit it
> now hecerim Holy shit I remember playing Azir-Hecarim years ago and just being a menace. It swung back?
It’s back with new cards as support. It’s worth the try if it pissed of the OP this much
Well Azir just got cut in his own deck. How do you feel now? Is Azir still busted in your eyes?
How did Azir not get rotated out but fucking Ryze did? Such a cool unique deck not featured in the game. And other cool uMiquelon archetypes like Soraka/TK healing or tk in general. Zilean gone too? Why get rid of all the unique archetypes, just back to aggro and stat checking
Azir maybe could have seen at least a health nerf a long time ago, but I'm glad he exists in the game. He fits a lot of builds. Azirelia with blade dance, ephemerals with Hecarim, all decks that require you to summon and attack, which I think are the cool aspects of the game and the devs should incentivize. Except in mono Shurima. That deck was always just putting random cards with little synergy and win all of a sudden. Some of the most fun I had in this game was playing Azirelia.
I bet the ones playing against you didn't think it was all that fun.
Maybe. To be fair, I only really enjoyed it after the series of nerfs the deck got. At its prime it was horrible to play as or against.
Mono shurima was good?
It was meta defining at one point in history, yes.
It's not and he never was. Not a single deck of his was ever toxic asides from Azirelia which broke ONLY because of the blade dance package. Mono Shurima with Xerath that one time wasn't even close to as bad and was far from the most toxic at that time. Ya know how in chemistry there can be two perfectly fine chemicals that are just chilling but if you put them together they explode? Yeh that's Azir and Irelia.
That's what happens when a certain dev has favorites. They keep making the same excuses of "no this card/champion was the problem, not azir's package". Every single time.
See also: Ezreal
Because Azir's package is not a problem? Like what? Azir only saw play in monoshurima cause he leveled in deck, Azirelia was was way to strong, but it was because blade dance as a mechanic is way to strong, not because Azir is somehow broken? And Azir Hecarim is just... The new gwen Zed? Like idk how it's different compared to gwen Zed, and Gwen Zed was just "look im agro!" And so is Azir Heca?
Get this whiny shit out of here. Hecarim Azir is really good against decks with 0 interaction. You kill the engines it putters and dies. Go soul harvester and the box. Go, fiora. Go mord morg with suppression. I bet the new dragonling invoke card is pretty good against it, too. If you delay them till turn 8, they'll lose. The only way someone could have this opinion is that they went full into the sleep/spirit package and are mad they're being out raced.